The Santa Claus Principle

[Chris]

Do you believe in Santa Claus?


Mises wrote (http://mises.org/daily/6313/The-Santa-Claus-Principle):


From day to day it becomes more obvious that large-scale additions to the amount of public expenditure cannot be financed by “soaking the rich,” but that the burden must be carried by the masses. (…) Every penny of additional government spending will have to be collected from precisely those people who hitherto have been intent upon shifting the main burden to other groups. Those anxious to get subsidies will have to foot the bill themselves for the subsidies.

And now left-progressives are aghast as they witness first-hand the Santa Claus principle liquidating itself on their own pay stubs and find themselves holding the bag, following the payroll tax hike Obama recently signed into law.

The following are posts from DemocraticUnderground as reported (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/6/obama-supporters-shocked-angry-new-tax-increases/) by the Washington Times:


“What happened that my Social Security withholding’s in my paycheck just went up?” a poster wrote on the liberal site DemocraticUnderground.com. “My paycheck just went down by an amount that I don’t feel comfortable with. What happened?”“I know to expect between $93 and $94 less in my paycheck on the 15th,” wrote… “RomneyLies.” “My boyfriend has had a lot of expenses and is feeling squeezed right now, and having his paycheck shrink really didn’t help,” wrote “DemocratToTheEnd.”“BlueIndyBlue” added: “Many of my friends didn’t realize it, either. Our payroll department didn’t do a good job of explaining the coming changes.”

@ The Santa Claus Principle in Action (http://bastiat.mises.org/2013/01/the-santa-claus-principle-in-action/)


The fiscal cliff deal soaks the rick be letting some of the Bush tax cuts expire. Rich corporation won't pay more taxes, they will just pass the extra cost only the masses. And the masses will in addition pay from the crony capitalism in the deal.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Do you believe in Santa Claus?



@ The Santa Claus Principle in Action (http://bastiat.mises.org/2013/01/the-santa-claus-principle-in-action/)


The fiscal cliff deal soaks the rick be letting some of the Bush tax cuts expire. Rich corporation won't pay more taxes, they will just pass the extra cost only the masses. And the masses will in addition pay from the crony capitalism in the deal.

I posted those quotes in another thread and nobody responded. We've been talking about this since the McCain/Obama campaign and nobody heeded the warnings.

Now we say "we told you so" as we watch the walls crumble down around everything we worked so hard to build.

[Cigar]

Do you believe in Santa Claus?



@ The Santa Claus Principle in Action (http://bastiat.mises.org/2013/01/the-santa-claus-principle-in-action/)


The fiscal cliff deal soaks the rick be letting some of the Bush tax cuts expire. Rich corporation won't pay more taxes, they will just pass the extra cost only the masses. And the masses will in addition pay from the crony capitalism in the deal.

I'm OK with that ... The Masses will then have a choice to use or not use said Rich Corporation's Product.

It goes both ways ... Supply / Demand .. just the way you like it. :)

[Mainecoons]

This is what happens when Santa Clause runs out of steam.

http://oilprice.com/Finance/the-Economy/Why-2013-will-End-in-a-Severe-Recession.html

This writer contends that the five fold increase in oil prices has a lot to do with the current economic decline but she also delves into historic parallels. It's a slightly long read but with a lot of graphs that illustrate the points she is making very well.

[Chris]

I'm OK with that ... The Masses will then have a choice to use or not use said Rich Corporation's Product.

It goes both ways ... Supply / Demand .. just the way you like it. :)

Unclear, the masses already have a choice to use or not such products. What they don't have a choice for is the increase in prices, government decided that for them. You're OK with that?

[Chris]

I'm OK with that ... The Masses will then have a choice to use or not use said Rich Corporation's Product.

It goes both ways ... Supply / Demand .. just the way you like it. :)


High oil prices tend to lead to government financial problems.

This is a case of government shooting itself in the foot. Oil prices on the global market have been much the same since the 60s, but they continue to rise here in the US because the government inflates the money supply, through QE etc, and lowers the value of the dollar.

http://i.snag.gy/uXFz8.jpg

[Cigar]

This is a case of government shooting itself in the foot. Oil prices on the global market have been much the same since the 60s, but they continue to rise here in the US because the government inflates the money supply, through QE etc, and lowers the value of the dollar.

http://i.snag.gy/uXFz8.jpg

Obama's Fault :)

[Chris]

Obama's Fault :)

QE1, 2, and 3 have all come under his watch.

That's not to say others before them didn't in other ways cause inflation. But I'll leave that to your research and contribution to the content of this thread.

[Carygrant]

The fiscal cliff deal soaks the rick be letting some of the Bush tax cuts expire. Rich corporation won't pay more taxes, they will just pass the extra cost only the masses. And the masses will in addition pay from the crony capitalism in the deal.



Apart from setting a possible new record in mis spells ............
But thank goodness Democratic principles are so devoted to modifying the terrible underlying Republican philosophy of greed and selfishness which brought America to the edge of a fiscal cliff . One that apparently , "soaks the rick" , which perhaps hints at Farmers and Cereal Crop producers as previously unconsidered prime targets .
The OP seems to hint at the Rich and Middle classes paying and even those on needed benefits suffering from cuts .
Who would have guessed ? What a fiendish plot . Make everybody pay for mistakes everybody contributed to . Whatever next indeed .

[Chris]

Apart from setting a possible new record in mis spells ............
But thank goodness Democratic principles are so devoted to modifying the terrible underlying Republican philosophy of greed and selfishness which brought America to the edge of a fiscal cliff . One that apparently , "soaks the rick" , which perhaps hints at Farmers and Cereal Crop producers as previously unconsidered prime targets .
The OP seems to hint at the Rich and Middle classes paying and even those on needed benefits suffering from cuts .
Who would have guessed ? What a fiendish plot . Make everybody pay for mistakes everybody contributed to . Whatever next indeed .


Apart from setting a possible new record in mis spells [sic]

New cell phone. And your excuse?


But thank goodness Democratic principles are so devoted to modifying the terrible underlying Republican philosophy of greed and selfishness which brought America to the edge of a fiscal cliff .

What democratic principles and what republican philosophy? Substantiate your inflammatory generalizations so they mean something and contribute to the discussion.


The OP seems to hint at the Rich and Middle classes paying and even those on needed benefits suffering from cuts .

It would help if you;d read the OP. It examples the Santa Claus principle: "From day to day it becomes more obvious that large-scale additions to the amount of public expenditure cannot be financed by “soaking the rich,” but that the burden must be carried by the masses."

Could you comment on that?

I know you said yesterday you have no intent to contribute to the forum but it would be appreciated if you did.

[Cigar]

QE1, 2, and 3 have all come under his watch.

That's not to say others before them didn't in other ways cause inflation. But I'll leave that to your research and contribution to the content of this thread.


I guess you'll need to put up a better candidate next time ... 4 years from now :)

[Chris]

I guess you'll need to put up a better candidate next time ... 4 years from now :)

Nothing to contribute to the topic? The point is we've been fighting poverty, well, at least since LBJ declared war on it, and are failing, regardless of President, Congress, etc.

[Mainecoons]

I thought this section was supposed to censor the trolling. I guess not.

[Carygrant]

I know you said yesterday you have no intent to contribute to the forum but it would be appreciated if you did.


Trolling .
I have reported your Post for deliberate harassment and , put simply , telling a blatant lie .
We all know a contributor is a member or participant and someone who is not a contributor is neither member or participant . To deliberately twist this to another and negative meaning , after having been warned about your conduct , is childish . But requires putting on a formal basis .

[Mainecoons]

Another post that seems to demonstrate that the alleged higher posting standards in this section are not being observed.

Moderators?

[Cigar]

I thought this section was supposed to censor the trolling. I guess not.


Crying to MaMa again?

My response to the post won't change ... if Corporations jack their prices to cover taxation, consumers will have the choice to go elsewhere or not purchase at all. Not if you or anyone else don't like my response, I personally couldn't care less. But it won't change my response either.

[Chris]

Trolling .
I have reported your Post for deliberate harassment and , put simply , telling a blatant lie .
We all know a contributor is a member or participant and someone who is not a contributor is neither member or participant . To deliberately twist this to another and negative meaning , after having been warned about your conduct , is childish . But requires putting on a formal basis .

Here is where you said it: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9992-Why-are-conservative-Americans-so-ignorant?p=212458&viewfull=1#post212458

Apparently you have decided to prove it.

[Chris]

Crying to MaMa again?

My response to the post won't change ... if Corporations jack their prices to cover taxation, consumers will have the choice to go elsewhere or not purchase at all. Not if you or anyone else don't like my response, I personally couldn't care less. But it won't change my response either.

But your response was countered earlier with "Unclear, the masses already have a choice to use or not such products. What they don't have a choice for is the increase in prices, government decided that for them. You're OK with that?"

Repeating your opinion is not informative, please respond to the counter argument and keep discussion going.

[Deadwood]

Do you believe in Santa Claus?



@ The Santa Claus Principle in Action (http://bastiat.mises.org/2013/01/the-santa-claus-principle-in-action/)


The fiscal cliff deal soaks the rick be letting some of the Bush tax cuts expire. Rich corporation won't pay more taxes, they will just pass the extra cost only the masses. And the masses will in addition pay from the crony capitalism in the deal.



What was the amount Obama INSISTED be cut from the taxes of GM, Oil Companies and other cronies and the film industry?


Oh yeah, the 'fiscal cliff' fixed things all right, the middle class paying more [in percentage terms] than the rich, and Obama's financiers paying nothing.

Sweet deal.........and these no brain, Obama bums think he's there hero. In one fell swoop he sold you asses out, drove another stake into the bankruptcy of the country, and went golfing.


Obama cares, he really does......


Mostly about himself

[Mainecoons]

My response to the post won't change ... if Corporations jack their prices to cover taxation, consumers will have the choice to go elsewhere or not purchase at all. Not if you or anyone else don't like my response, I personally couldn't care less. But it won't change my response either.

Put the word "uninformed" in front of "response" to make a more accurate statement. You seem to be advocating driving still more companies and jobs offshore to escape the world's highest and most convoluted tax code.

I know it is difficult for you to grasp fundamentals, but try this one: The government feedbag you live off of lasts only as long as they collect taxes and/or print money. When you drive taxpayers away by being uncompetitive, you collect less. And at some point, your masters the tenured government workers, are going to chose between giving you make work contracts because you are black versus getting paid themselves. Even someone as mal-educated as yourself should be able to figure that one out.

Or maybe not.

[Deadwood]

Put the word "uninformed" in front of "response" to make a more accurate statement. You seem to be advocating driving still more companies and jobs offshore to escape the world's highest and most convoluted tax code.

I know it is difficult for you to grasp fundamentals, but try this one: The government feedbag you live off of lasts only as long as they collect taxes and/or print money. When you drive taxpayers away by being uncompetitive, you collect less. And at some point, your masters the tenured government workers, are going to chose between giving you make work contracts because you are black versus getting paid themselves. Even someone as mal-educated as yourself should be able to figure that one out.

Or maybe not.[/I][/COLOR]



This is the problem with the "gimme" mentality.

Entitlements are a must. A just society takes care of those who cannot take care of themselves, including the elderly. In Canada, the philosophy is that no one should have to work after age 65, [67 in five years]. Now everyone gets Canada Pension based on how much was contributed, those who made less get some more and the very poor get an income supplement. Note how the entitlement is scaled based on earnings.

In the US the trend has been to go universal while at the same time lowering the bar for assistance to the point too many of those on disability are able bodied; while they don't work, their kids all have designer jeans, cell phones and you have to wonder how they manage that 50" flat screen.

So long as its easy the demand will grow. As the demand grows, the country goes bankrupt.

No one today is willing to risk the abject hatred hurled at Ronald Reagan in the first two years of his presidency; they don't make politicians that thick skinned anymore......

But, sooner or later Greece and Spain are going to come to the US. Canada had theirs in the late 90's. And the longer it takes to arrive, the harder it is going to be for the entitled.

[Cigar]

I agree ... Corporate Greed need to end!

[Peter1469]

Here is where you said it: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9992-Why-are-conservative-Americans-so-ignorant?p=212458&viewfull=1#post212458

Apparently you have decided to prove it.

Which part?

[Chris]

Which part?

His not intending to contribute to the forum.

Ah, sorry, gave the wrong link, it's here: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8049-Advice-on-Dealing-with-Trolling?p=211889&viewfull=1#post211889.

[Chris]

I agree ... Corporate Greed need to end!

Greed is an attribute of man. As Adam Smith explains, the free market channels that greed to good purposes for society. But as the OP defines and demonstrates, government does not. Perhaps what we need is to put an end to government greed for power.