Christians Claim Rejection Of God Leads To Murder

[GrassrootsConservative]

We doubt if we will ever get a definitive answer, especially one that satisfies all people, or even most people. As God Himself says in Genesis 8:21, “The intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (all of the mass shooters seem to be men).
However, we urge everyone to consider this answer:
By removing God, the Bible, God's Law, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit from society, including the mass media and the schools, we are raising generations of people with no faith in God or Jesus and, hence, no moral conscience, and no self-control. If so many people have no faith, no moral conscience and no self-control, then it’s no wonder our society is suffering from all these mass murders by evil lone gunmen.
For some reason, the word “evil” has become a pariah in modern discourse. If you remove God, the Bible, God’s Law, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, then doesn’t the notion of good and evil become meaningless?
As Paul points out in Romans 2:29, people become good and do the right thing only when their hearts, or their conscience or inner souls, are at least partly sanctified, cleansed, redeemed, and transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.




http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/34997-rejection-of-faith-values-leads-to-social-mayhem-and-murder-in-newtown

What needs to be said here? I don't think any non-christian agrees with the Christians.

Could I turn the tables and assume that they would say faith in God leads people away from murder?

What about the crusades? The genocide of Native Americans? The holocaust? To me it seems to be that a faith in God leads to murders due to the feelings of Manifest Destiny, and this article is a great example of that. A Christian writing about how everyone else is a murderer. Clearly that is what their God would want.

[roadmaster]

If you don't know Him how would you know? " By removing God, the Bible, God's Law, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit from society, including the mass media and the schools, we are raising generations of people with no faith in God or Jesus and, hence, no moral conscience, and no self-control. If so many people have no faith, no moral conscience and no self-control, then it’s no wonder our society is suffering from all these mass murders by evil lone gunmen" Are we not seeing this today? I wasn't aware Christians murdered Indians like many non-believers did. Now if they are trying to kill you or your family I can. The holocaust was done by a man that was inspired by Darwin. The crusaders, I wasn't there but if they were true Christians we do have a right to defend ourselves. Your point is useless and you never look in the mirror. Killing and murdering are two different things. I could kill an armed man trying to break into my house and that wouldn't be considered murder. If I went out and started shooting people for no reason now that would be murder.

[GrassrootsConservative]

If you don't know Him how would you know? " By removing God, the Bible, God's Law, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit from society, including the mass media and the schools, we are raising generations of people with no faith in God or Jesus and, hence, no moral conscience, and no self-control. If so many people have no faith, no moral conscience and no self-control, then it’s no wonder our society is suffering from all these mass murders by evil lone gunmen" Are we not seeing this today? I wasn't aware Christians murdered Indians like many non-believers did. Now if they are trying to kill you or your family I can. The holocaust was done by a man that was inspired by Darwin. The crusaders, I wasn't there but if they were true Christians we do have a right to defend ourselves. Your point is useless and you never look in the mirror. Killing and murdering are two different things. I could kill an armed man trying to break into my house and that wouldn't be considered murder. If I went out and started shooting people for no reason now that would be murder.

I have no faith in god, jesus, the bible, or any of that rubbish. Are you saying I have no self control or morals?

[GrassrootsConservative]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/America-is-violent-graph.png Ah, it looks like shootings have gone down over the last 20 years. Maybe this is the result of the more widespread rejection of the fraudulent teachings of Christianity. What would Mike Huckabee say about it, if he knew the truth?

[Carygrant]

By the same type of dubious "logic" , does belief and faith in the Gun lead people to murder?
Please don't just tell me that it saves them from being murdered --- cupboard / closet woman showed how debatable that can be .

[Alif Qadr]

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/34997-rejection-of-faith-values-leads-to-social-mayhem-and-murder-in-newtown

What needs to be said here? I don't think any non-christian agrees with the Christians.

Could I turn the tables and assume that they would say faith in God leads people away from murder?

What about the crusades? The genocide of Native Americans? The holocaust? To me it seems to be that a faith in God leads to murders due to the feelings of Manifest Destiny, and this article is a great example of that. A Christian writing about how everyone else is a murderer. Clearly that is what their God would want.



Grassroots,
The liberalization of the laws of Allah (God) leads to the doing of unGodly thoughts and actions. One of the laws states that "though shalt not kill outside of the laws of Justice". The Liberalized version or interpretation says, "Though shalt not kill thy own kind" then it bleeds into, what does the law actually mean? The rest is history. I will give another example, the law of disbelief or turning away from Islam (the ways of righteous conduct). The Liberalized interpretation says that this applies to those who leave religion, when in actuality the law is for those who have sworn to do righteous deeds and live a righteous live and then turn around and do the opposite; hypocrisy, wicked deeds, thoughts and actions, etc. The law in no way states that believers are to kill them, unless said person commits wicked actions against them or innocent others but the Liberalized ones take it to the extreme for power, control and notoriety which is actually against the laws and codes themselves. No live is to be taken OUTSIDE OF THE LAWS OF JUSTICE, PERIOD!
The consequence of turning away from doing righteousness will eventually result in someone seeking your life because of what you have done.

​This has nothing to do with religion (a set group of rituals) and everything to do with personal conduct.

There are many forms of Liberalism and most if not all are bad, in my opinion.

[Chris]

If you don't know Him how would you know? " By removing God, the Bible, God's Law, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit from society, including the mass media and the schools, we are raising generations of people with no faith in God or Jesus and, hence, no moral conscience, and no self-control. If so many people have no faith, no moral conscience and no self-control, then it’s no wonder our society is suffering from all these mass murders by evil lone gunmen" Are we not seeing this today? I wasn't aware Christians murdered Indians like many non-believers did. Now if they are trying to kill you or your family I can. The holocaust was done by a man that was inspired by Darwin. The crusaders, I wasn't there but if they were true Christians we do have a right to defend ourselves. Your point is useless and you never look in the mirror. Killing and murdering are two different things. I could kill an armed man trying to break into my house and that wouldn't be considered murder. If I went out and started shooting people for no reason now that would be murder.

OK, but since God is unknowable and ineffable, it can only be by faith that you accept this or that as moral. And that morality, call it Christian morality could influence nonbelievers, could be the same morality nonbelievers discover. We know believers and nonbelievers alike can be moral. But we cannot know the source of this morality since it emerges and evolves from society through group selection (borrowing from Adam Smith and Friedrich August Hayek and others).



BTW, Hitler wasn't inspired by Darwin. Hitler tried to (re)design and perfect man in some superhuman image. Darwin said you can't design man, man is a product of undesigned, unplanned evolution.

[Chris]

Grassroots,
The liberalization of the laws of Allah (God) leads to the doing of unGodly thoughts and actions. One of the laws states that "though shalt not kill outside of the laws of Justice". The Liberalized version or interpretation says, "Though shalt not kill thy own kind" then it bleeds into, what does the law actually mean? The rest is history. I will give another example, the law of disbelief or turning away from Islam (the ways of righteous conduct). The Liberalized interpretation says that this applies to those who leave religion, when in actuality the law is for those who have sworn to do righteous deeds and live a righteous live and then turn around and do the opposite; hypocrisy, wicked deeds, thoughts and actions, etc. The law in no way states that believers are to kill them, unless said person commits wicked actions against them or innocent others but the Liberalized ones take it to the extreme for power, control and notoriety which is actually against the laws and codes themselves. No live is to be taken OUTSIDE OF THE LAWS OF JUSTICE, PERIOD!
The consequence of turning away from doing righteousness will eventually result in someone seeking your life because of what you have done.

​This has nothing to do with religion (a set group of rituals) and everything to do with personal conduct.

There are many forms of Liberalism and most if not all are bad, in my opinion.


​This has nothing to do with religion (a set group of rituals) and everything to do with personal conduct.

I would only add in society--everything to do with personal conduct in society. Morality has to do with social interaction.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Interesting direction of the thread, but my point was more to create a discussion for why christians think nonchristians have no morals.

[Chris]

Interesting direction of the thread, but my point was more to create a discussion for why christians think nonchristians have no morals.

I have met only a few who think that way and wasn't much impressed that they were really Christian anyway.

[KC]

Interesting direction of the thread, but my point was more to create a discussion for why christians think nonchristians have no morals.

I think the problem is that Christians are right in asking the question "where does morality come from without God?" I say this as a person who is agnostic, but it is difficult to find a universal moral code without religion.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I think the problem is that Christians are right in asking the question "where does morality come from without God?" I say as a person who is agnostic, but it is difficult to find a universal moral code without religion.

How about humanity?
What stops a muslim converted from islam from blowing up everyone he comes into contact with?

That's not "God," that's humanity.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Moral code comes from society, I guess is what I'm saying. And it will always be there, even in 2034 when the believers of "God" see that jesus is not coming back to send all their hated rivals to hell and take them to paradise.

[KC]

Moral code comes from society, I guess is what I'm saying. And it will always be there, even in 2034 when the believers of "God" see that jesus is not coming back to send all their hated rivals to hell and take them to paradise.

Where do societies get their moral code from?

[GrassrootsConservative]

I have met only a few who think that way and wasn't much impressed that they were really Christian anyway.

Would it surprise you to hear that there are many Christians who think that way?
Here's one from Mike Huckabee, I mentioned it earlier:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtRM1LCCbTk

A little different, but the idea is the same. This man says the shooting happened because god has been exiled from schools. The idea is the same:
Nonchristians, unexposed to god, will kill people. That's the logic of MANY christians.

3:00 "We ask why there's violence in our schools, but we've systematically removed god from our schools."

As if his god made this violence happen due to his anger over schools putting science and truth over mythological christianity.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Where do societies get their moral code from?

Human averages. MOST PEOPLE would not go to a school and shoot a bunch of kids, that's why society rejects the idea and labels it "immoral."

[Chris]

He's a talking head no different than Piers what's his name. He's among the few. It causes a stir. It sells and attracts advertisers.

Give me a roadmaster to talk to any day.

[nic34]

http://gomotors.net/pics/Buick/buick-roadmaster-02.jpg

[KC]

Human averages. MOST PEOPLE would not go to a school and shoot a bunch of kids, that's why society rejects the idea and labels it "immoral."

Why won't they?

That's a good argument for what does happen, but it doesn't tell us why most people won't. There can be several explanations, but there have been several times in history when it has been more than acceptable to single out a group of people and kill them. It seems that one of the most important factors is genetics. We have a natural impulse to preserve ourselves in the gene pool, so one explanation is that humans, as a social animal, have a tendency to institutionalize ethics when we can all benefit from them.

That explanation would tie morality to self interest though, which is a dangerous path. It would follow that whenever our self interest is protected we no longer hold to our moral obligations.

[Agravan]

Interesting direction of the thread, but my point was more to create a discussion for why christians think nonchristians have no morals.I would say that the equivalent for that question would be : Why do Atheists believe Christians are all uneducated buffoons who don't believe in science , technology or reading anything but the bible?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Why do Atheists believe Christians are all uneducated buffoons who don't believe in science , technology or reading anything but the bible?

Except we don't try to push our beliefs on other people with threats of eternal damnation.

[Agravan]

Except we don't try to push our beliefs on other people with threats of eternal damnation.Actually, some of you do. Maybe not threaten with eternal damnation, but with ridicule, taunts and downright disrespect.yes there are some Christians who try to convert atheists, maybe a little too aggressively, but there are just as many, if not more atheists trying to convince Christians of the fallacy of their beliefs by trying to humiliate and ridicule them. Neither method is going to make converts and they're both wrong.

[nic34]

Actually, some of you do. Maybe not threaten with eternal damnation, but with ridicule, taunts and downright disrespect.yes there are some Christians who try to convert atheists, maybe a little too aggressively, but there are just as many, if not more atheists trying to convince Christians of the fallacy of their beliefs by trying to humiliate and ridicule them. Neither method is going to make converts and they're both wrong.

Baloney

[GrassrootsConservative]

Actually, some of you do. Maybe not threaten with eternal damnation, but with ridicule, taunts and downright disrespect.yes there are some Christians who try to convert atheists, maybe a little too aggressively, but there are just as many, if not more atheists trying to convince Christians of the fallacy of their beliefs by trying to humiliate and ridicule them. Neither method is going to make converts and they're both wrong.

That's bullshit.

[KC]

Everyone please stick to the topic and refrain from insults or inflammatory remarks. The Religion and Philosophy room is meant for more serious discussion, so all members who post here must make a positive contribution.

[Agravan]

That's bullshit.
GRC, you are a prime example of what my last post said.
Every post where you mention Christians is laced with ridicule, hatred, disrespect and anger.
You go out of your way to find some point to ridicule christians with.
Now, show me a post, anywhere on this forum, where a Christian (or even another atheist) has done the same except where it is in response to one of your posts.
Hell, GRC, even in your signature you go out of your way to say something negative about Christians.

[Agravan]

Everyone please stick to the topic and refrain from insults or inflammatory remarks. The Religion and Philosophy room is meant for more serious discussion, so all members who post here must make a positive contribution.
I thought the topic was about religion. If I responded in error, please feel free to delete or move my posts.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I thought the topic was about religion. If I responded in error, please feel free to delete or move my posts.

(Not sure, but) I think he was talking to me and nic saying your post was false, but I'm not sure.

Do you see a problem in the OP quote with the man claiming nonchristians are immoral and lack control?

[Agravan]

(Not sure, but) I think he was talking to me and nic saying your post was false, but I'm not sure.

Do you see a problem in the OP quote with the man claiming nonchristians are immoral and lack control?
Believe it or not, GRC, yes, I do see that as a problem. While I do believe there has been a marked rise in violence, immorality, and crime since God has been banned from the public sector, I don't believe that every non-believer is immoral or lacks control. I do have some atheist friends, and while I disagree with them on religion, they are some of the nices, moral folks I know.
Morality is in your heart. There are immoral atheists and immoral Christians everywhere. Look at the pedophle priests. i personally think they should have been ex-communicated and imprisoned. That Rome does not see it that way is just another indication of the fall of man. Not all Christians are like that, nor all atheists.

[Chris]

This might go outside the topic but it extends what Agravan touches on with "While I do believe there has been a marked rise in violence, immorality, and crime since God has been banned from the public sector" and that is that the problem as I see it is the replacement of faith in God with faith in the State, as explored in The Liberal God Delusion (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9878-The-Liberal-God-Delusion). It is this, imo, that has removed not only God but morality from the public square, from society. That hubris, that fatal conceit, is the real sin here.

[nic34]

This might go outside the topic but it extends what Agravan touches on with "While I do believe there has been a marked rise in violence, immorality, and crime since God has been banned from the public sector" and that is that the problem as I see it is the replacement of faith in God with faith in the State, as explored in The Liberal God Delusion (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9878-The-Liberal-God-Delusion). It is this, imo, that has removed not only God but morality from the public square, from society. That hubris, that fatal conceit, is the real sin here.

I see no marked rise in violence and immorality as compared to the rest of our history. We did have a civil war you know. What HAS increased is violence involving guns.

I also don't see where anyone's god's exclusive claim on the the "public square" has ever attributed to less violence. I do see many people becoming more tolerant of other beliefs, and that has riled those that claim this is a christian nation.

They should read their bibles and the constitution.

[Chris]

I see no marked rise in violence and immorality as compared to the rest of our history. We did have a civil war you know. What HAS increased is violence involving guns.

I also don't see where anyone's god's exclusive claim on the the "public square" has ever attributed to less violence. I do see many people becoming more tolerant of other beliefs, and that has riled those that claim this is a christian nation.

They should read their bibles and the constitution.

Civil War is a good example. WWI, WWII.

There are no wars between religions, only between governments.

[roadmaster]

BTW, Hitler wasn't inspired by Darwin. Hitler tried to (re)design and perfect man in some superhuman image. Darwin said you can't design man, man is a product of undesigned, unplanned evolution. Bull have you ever read his books? You don't even know what you are talking about. He worshiped Darwin and hated Christians.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Read below.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Bull have you ever read his books? You don't even know what you are talking about. He worshiped Darwin and hated Christians.

From Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

From a speech of his:

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

[GrassrootsConservative]

Hitler killed in the name of god, not Darwin as your rose-colored-glasses-christian fellowship would have you believe.

[Chris]

Bull have you ever read his books? You don't even know what you are talking about. He worshiped Darwin and hated Christians.

Yes, I have. Hitler's beliefs were based in part of the social Darwinism of the Progressive movement, i.e., eugenics, and in part monism, and in part the views of Ernst Häckel.

Social Darwinism is based on a misinterpretation of Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest.

Häckel rejected Darwinian natural selection for Lamarckism that says an individual can pass on attributes acquired during life to offspring.

These two combinations of scientistic thinking is what Hitler's ideas of perfecting man were about.

I'm sure you can find passages of Hitler referring to Darwin, just as you can find passages where he claims he was Christian. The devil's in the details.

[roadmaster]

Yes, I have. Hitler's beliefs were based in part of the social Darwinism of the Progressive movement, i.e., eugenics, and in part monism, and in part the views of Ernst Häckel.

Social Darwinism is based on a misinterpretation of Herbert Spencer's survival of the fittest.

Häckel rejected Darwinian natural selection for Lamarckism that says an individual can pass on attributes acquired during life to offspring.

These two combinations of scientistic thinking is what Hitler's ideas of perfecting man were about.

I'm sure you can find passages of Hitler referring to Darwin, just as you can find passages where he claims he was Christian. The devil's in the details.

He was never a Christian, his mother was and sent him to church. When he got older he rejected God and used the church to his advantage. Survival of the fittest.

[GrassrootsConservative]

He was never a Christian, his mother was and sent him to church. When he got older he rejected God and used the church to his advantage. Survival of the fittest.



I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion (Religionsstifter). Therefore I have turned against Ludendoriff and separated myself from him; therefore I reject Rosenberg's book. That book is written by a Protestant. It is not a party book. It is not written by him as a member of the party. The Protestants can settle matters with him.
My desire is that no confessional conflict arise. I must act correctly to both confessions. I will not tolerate a Kulturkampf.... I stand by my word. I will protect the rights and freedom of the church and will not permit them to be touched. You need have no apprehensions concerning the freedom of the church.


-Hitler [quoted from Helmreich, p.241]


http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm

Quotes with links backing up my claims. See how this works?

[Chris]

He was never a Christian, his mother was and sent him to church. When he got older he rejected God and used the church to his advantage. Survival of the fittest.

Yes, I know, nor was he a Darwinian. That was my point.

[Deadwood]

The concept of morals does not come through faith, but through a specific world view. No argument can be sustained in a vacuum and must be supported by an ethic or world view.

But from where comes that world view? To a Fugawi tribesman that world view is simple: food, not food: eat, don't eat; family/friend or threat: kill don't kill

Our world view changes a great deal without faith; becomes more self oriented and less social.

It is a stretch, as often happens in your contempt for Christianity, to say that "Christians say" when indeed the article makes no such direct claim, and you infer through headline that ALL Christians believe this, when, in fact, it is the musing of one individual of questionable theological pedigree.

What you and so many other atheists miss in your anti-Christian passion is that being Christian is a choice, a humbling and deliberate admission of our fallen nature, it is a manner of living encompassing the very foundational belief that "we all stumble in many ways."

I would like to see others enjoy this faith, but if you chose not to, it is no skin off my ass whatsoever. As they say: "Enjoy hell motherfucker."

What intrigues me is that in all my years on internet chat rooms I have never once seen a Christian post something trying to convince anyone else to join them in the faith while the anger filled ravings of atheists fill these forums. Hardly more than a few days pass without someone posting a bait thread like this or making asses out of themselves misinterpreting a book they have never read. It is audacious in the extreme to reduce to idiot simplicity the most complex work of faith in the universe which has been studied by thousands of scholars over two millennia.

what's that about? Who are you trying to convince? And why?

[bladimz]

Interesting direction of the thread, but my point was more to create a discussion for why christians think nonchristians have no morals.Those self-proclaimed Christians that feel that non-christians have no morals think that way because it makes them think of themselves as "special, good and above" their non-christian counterparts. Those Christians, the very ones who are commanded to not to judge their fellow man, do exactly that as they point their holy finger at the "non-believers".

I read something just the other day: "It's not God i hate. It's His fan club i can't stand!"

[Deadwood]

From Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

From a speech of his:

24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm



Oh stop.

Just stop.

We have dealt with this. It is ignorance in the extreme to try to blame the Holocaust on Hitler.

You have falsely attributed Biblical quotes to him and been caught. You confuse Hitler's claim about acting in accordance of God's will with his actually done so.

You have failed to respond to supplied evidence that Hitler's NAZI's persecuted Christians, and further proof that not ONE aspect of Hitler's manifesto is in any way Christian based, but rather its roots stem from a early 1900's atheist movement called Eugenics.

Enough.

It is one thing to air your grievances about Christianity but downright fraud to try to tar Christians with Hitler. As a religion we have enough to atone for without adding unadulterated bullshit.

In closing, how is it that you atheists never mention the millions and millions of hospitals, orphanages, schools, homeless shelters, leper clinics and so forth scattered across the globe usually provided free?

How about you list just a few of the atheist hospitals provided free? Any multinationals running non profit leper colonies?

You guys simply choose to ignore that worldview. You never consider the millions collected and distributed to the poor, or all the missionaries across the world.

Hitler my ass.


t

[Deadwood]

Except we don't try to push our beliefs on other people with threats of eternal damnation.

Please supply ONE example where any Christian has ever "threatened" you with eternal damnation.

But if you are not trying to push your beliefs on other people, what are all these anti-Christian posts all about? Who are you trying to convince of what?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Please supply ONE example where any Christian has ever "threatened" you with eternal damnation.

But if you are not trying to push your beliefs on other people, what are all these anti-Christian posts all about? Who are you trying to convince of what?

"Do you believe in god?"
"No"
"You're going to hell"

Got this a lot from Christians when I was living in The Bible Belt.
I'm sick of hearing it.

[roadmaster]

"Do you believe in god?"
"No"
"You're going to hell"

Got this a lot from Christians when I was living in The Bible Belt.
I'm sick of hearing it.

Did you ask them? I won't tell you if you don't repent and accept God as your Lord or Savior before you die that you won't go to hell. You want me to lie to you? But I haven't threatened you here at all. It's you that keep bringing up the subject. If you don't want to hear it stop asking.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Did you ask them? I won't tell you if you don't repent and accept God as your Lord or Savior before you die that you won't go to hell. You want me to lie to you? But I haven't threatened you here at all. It's you that keep bringing up the subject. If you don't want to hear it stop asking.

I never brought it up. It was them that did. I bring it up here to expose the evils of organized religion and hopefully remove the fraudulent wool from the eyes of the sheep before they turn into self-righteous punks like those who would judge me, even against the words of their holy texts.

[roadmaster]

I never brought it up. It was them that did. I bring it up here to expose the evils of organized religion and hopefully remove the fraudulent wool from the eyes of the sheep before they turn into self-righteous punks like those who would judge me, even against the words of their holy texts. You call that judging? You don't know the meaning.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You call that judging? You don't know the meaning.

They took a fact about me and formed their own little opinions about me before they knew me.
In the simplest terms, that is judging.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Please don't give me some propagandized birdpoop that says he means a different kind of judging than that. These kinds of people are far from innocent.

[roadmaster]

They took a fact about me and formed their own little opinions about me before they knew me.
In the simplest terms, that is judging.
God has a way of doing things. I can't tell you that 5 to 10 years from now you will reject Him or walk towards Him. Unless you have sold your soul or your heart becomes hardened He will not give up on you. But if you seek Him you will find Him. Judging, no, they are just telling you what His word says. If they told you it's ok do as you please they would be lying. That's why I always tell you to not ask me to preach to you. You are here for a reason and it will be your decision in the end.

[Agravan]

I never brought it up. It was them that did. I bring it up here to expose the evils of organized religion and hopefully remove the fraudulent wool from the eyes of the sheep before they turn into self-righteous punks like those who would judge me, even against the words of their holy texts.

My friend, do you ever stop and think that you may meet resistance because of your belligerence towards religion. These people may "judge" you because of your high level of anger and your own judging of religious folks? Just look at that part of your statement that I highlighted: That is is a level of judgement, the likes of which are NEVER made by any Christian on this forum.
What makes you think that you have been given the mission of removing "the fraudulent wool" over anyone's eyes? Why do you think you are right and 2.2 billion people are wrong?
Is that not the height of arrogance?
As has been said before, the only people that preach on this site are you and Ennin. And Ennin is not belligerent.
Your preaching is filled with hate and anger. You are not removing the "fraudulent wool" from anyone, and never will using belligerence, hate and anger. You will only cause people to dig in their heels even more.
Come up with a reasoned discussion, without the hatred, i.e. "religious punks", and discuss this topic rationally, and you might get people to listen.
Continue this foaming at the mouth, irrationally hate filled, type of screed and you accomplish nothing except looking like a bigot.
In other words, chill dude.

[nic34]

Why do you think you are right and 2.2 billion people are wrong?
Is that not the height of arrogance?


Is it not arrogance for the christian right to demonize 1+billion muslims?

[Agravan]

Is it not arrogance for the christian right to demonize 1+billion muslims?
So you're okay with the terrorism that is caused by muslims? Not all muslims are terrorists, but the majority of terrorists are muslim.

[Peter1469]

Please don't give me some propagandized birdpoop that says he means a different kind of judging than that. These kinds of people are far from innocent.

I don't concern myself with official religion. I would tell you that the more mystical sects of all religions and the Buddhists are eerily similar in their world views.

[bladimz]

God has a way of doing things. I can't tell you that 5 to 10 years from now you will reject Him or walk towards Him. Unless you have sold your soul or your heart becomes hardened He will not give up on you. But if you seek Him you will find Him. Judging, no, they are just telling you what His word says. If they told you it's ok do as you please they would be lying. That's why I always tell you to not ask me to preach to you. You are here for a reason and it will be your decision in the end.Sorry, but as they relay their beliefs to him, they are at the very same time judging him. They are telling him what they believe to be the truth. That is their faith. When he says that he is not a believer, the correct response, if they must make such, would be "I believe that you will go to hell".

[bladimz]

So you're okay with the terrorism that is caused by muslims? Not all muslims are terrorists, but the majority of terrorists are muslim.As fas as i'm concerned, every mass shooting in this country is perpetrated by a terrorist.

[GrassrootsConservative]

As fas as i'm concerned, every mass shooting in this country is perpetrated by a terrorist.

Small peanuts compared to the religious killings carried out upon innocent people by Muslims in the middle east. Daily suicide bombings can kill upwards of 30 people in one shot.

[Chris]

Small peanuts compared to the religious killings carried out upon innocent people by Muslims in the middle east. Daily suicide bombings can kill upwards of 30 people in one shot.

Those killing are political not religious.

[nic34]

So you're okay with the terrorism that is caused by muslims? Not all muslims are terrorists, but the majority of terrorists are muslim.

So why exactly does my post mean I am "OKAY" with terrorism?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Those killing are political not religious.

There's nothing political about 72 virgins.
Religious. Killings.
It's undeniable.

[nic34]

Small peanuts compared to the religious killings carried out upon innocent people by Muslims in the middle east. Daily suicide bombings can kill upwards of 30 people in one shot.

20 kids... 27 total in one day in America is small peanuts?

Let us know when we get up to a significant enough number of dead....

[GrassrootsConservative]

20 kids... 27 total in one day in America is small peanuts?

Let us know when we get up to a significant enough number of dead....

See this?:
1226
Ban something that will make a difference.
NOT GUNS. Something that isn't an unalienable right.

[nic34]

That chart is bogus.... for one thing:

During 2000--2004, an estimated 443,000 persons in the United States died prematurely each year as a result of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm


The other... is that 11,493 homocides is NOT acceptable...

[bladimz]

Baseball bats aren't guns.
Guns are designed specifically to injury or kill. That is their primary purpose. Therefore, focusing on their regulation is focusing on limiting the ability for the wrong headed person to purchase or obtain these weapons. There is only one reason a person like this would want to get their hands on a gun.

[Peter1469]

Until the left gets control over the hard left, there will me no movement on the reasonable regulation of guns. Get over it.

[roadmaster]

Baseball bats aren't guns.
Guns are designed specifically to injury or kill. That is their primary purpose. Therefore, focusing on their regulation is focusing on limiting the ability for the wrong headed person to purchase or obtain these weapons. There is only one reason a person like this would want to get their hands on a gun.
How can you always tell if it's in the right hands or not? Not all people with problems kill others. You can have a guy that is upset at his girlfriend, got fired from a job, even police officers are known to snap. How about a dad that his daughter is raped and because the detectives messed up the crime scene the man gets off? It's not as easy as it seems.

[Chris]

Baseball bats aren't guns.
Guns are designed specifically to injury or kill. That is their primary purpose. Therefore, focusing on their regulation is focusing on limiting the ability for the wrong headed person to purchase or obtain these weapons. There is only one reason a person like this would want to get their hands on a gun.


I own a gun for protection of family and property.

[roadmaster]

I own a gun for protection of family and property.

I do too and it's registered, so did my uncles and Dad. Never had to shoot anyone but it was there just in case. Hope I never do but will if it came to that. That's like saying you would let another person beat your 5 year old child to death in front of you on a playground. I don't know anyone who would not try to come to this child's rescue, no matter how big the person was.

[GrassrootsConservative]

That chart is bogus.... for one thing:

During 2000--2004, an estimated 443,000 persons in the United States died prematurely each year as a result of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm


The other... is that 11,493 homocides is NOT acceptable...

I'm sorry, but how is the chart bogus? You say that tobacco deaths was 443,000 in 2004 or whatever... any non-liberal (logical) person would know that that number would rise in the following years.

Please stop saying stuff I post is bogus without having some serious, real evidence as to how.
nic34

[roadmaster]

That chart is bogus.... for one thing:

During 2000--2004, an estimated 443,000 persons in the United States died prematurely each year as a result of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm


The other... is that 11,493 homocides is NOT acceptable...

Smoking is not good for you but the big picture is all the pesticides, fumes, genes, air quality, your occupation- such as welders or anything doing with chemicals. You can't keep blaming it all on smokers. Homicides happen and it's not always with a gun. If someone wants to kill you they will use what they have.

[GrassrootsConservative]

No. Stop. He told me the chart was bogus, now I want to know why.

[roadmaster]

No. Stop. He told me the chart was bogus, now I want to know why.

I will tell you why. The first thing a Dr. asks a person when diagnosed with cancer or heart disease ect is "do you smoke or have you been around second hand smoke". If the person says yes to any of these they chalk it up to smoke related, doesn't matter how long ago it was they encountered a person who had been smoking. I had two aunts that died of cancer and both had not been around or smoked and didn't work outside the house. Those two they couldn't rate as smoke related but did anyway because it's easy to write down. Would I advise anyone to smoke, no. Can it cause cancer, yes.

[nic34]

No. Stop. He told me the chart was bogus, now I want to know why.

I gave you a link.

What roadmaster said is true. The numbers for smoking related deaths is inflated. People that have ever been exosed to second hand are even counted, even if they never smoked.

I don't smoke, but I also don't think making a point requires bending of the truth.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/1998/10/lies.pdf

Smoking has gone down significantly in last decades, adjusting for population, why does the number of deaths still go up?

[bladimz]

Until the left gets control over the hard left, there will me no movement on the reasonable regulation of guns. Get over it.Funny. Your post applies just as equally to the right. Although you make a mistake when you suggest that this is a left/right issue.

[bladimz]

I own a gun for protection of family and property.
And if some stronger regulation can make the difference between a potential threat (to your family and home) legally obtaining a gun or not, would that not be a good thing? I would hope you'd agree.

[Carygrant]

So you're okay with the terrorism that is caused by muslims? Not all muslims are terrorists, but the majority of terrorists are muslim.

Providing you perversely choose to ignore the American people as represented by their Military . The greatest Terrorist group on the planet acting on behalf of a God whom most Americans don't even bother to acknowledge , let alone believe in .
And Americans don't even chop off heads . They invariably set people on fire . Women and kids thrown in as extras .
Give us a break crying boy .

[bladimz]

How can you always tell if it's in the right hands or not? Not all people with problems kill others. You can have a guy that is upset at his girlfriend, got fired from a job, even police officers are known to snap. How about a dad that his daughter is raped and because the detectives messed up the crime scene the man gets off? It's not as easy as it seems.
You can't tell. That's the point. In order to make regulations effective, they must be created to minimize not so much the incidence of violence (no one will ever be able to contain that... not without a brain-chip implant), but the amount of damage each incident causes. If regulations can be created with this objective in mind, i'm all for it. If they are even able to decrease the number of incidents, that's a real plus.

[roadmaster]

You can't tell. That's the point. In order to make regulations effective, they must be created to minimize not so much the incidence of violence (no one will ever be able to contain that... not without a brain-chip implant), but the amount of damage each incident causes. If regulations can be created with this objective in mind, i'm all for it. If they are even able to decrease the number of incidents, that's a real plus.
I am all for stricter background test, a clip shouldn't hold but so many bullets ect. Get the gangs out first that kill one another for a corner of the street and kill people who dare walk down them. Why hasn't something been done yet just to solve this? Where children have to have bars on their windows and drive-byes rarely get news coverage. Even going to school is a challenge for them. Where many bring illegal guns over our border. Then talk to us about regulations on guns.

[bladimz]

I am all for stricter background test, a clip shouldn't hold but so many bullets ect. Get the gangs out first that kill one another for a corner of the street and kill people who dare walk down them. Why hasn't something been done yet just to solve this? Where children have to have bars on their windows and drive-byes rarely get news coverage. Even going to school is a challenge for them. Where many bring illegal guns over our border. Then talk to us about regulations on guns.Why must new gun regulations require that gangs are eradicated, that kids have safe school environments (funny, since it is the invasion of a school environment that has brought the regulations conversation to the forefront.) before they (regulations) can even be discussed?.

Example: My dog keeps getting out of my yard. So my neighbors want me to do something to contain him, even though i don't see him as a threat. So i say to them, "well, when you stop those kids across town from letting their dogs chase Mrs. Mason's cat, then i'll be willing to talk."

Sounds irresponsibly stupid doesn't it.

[roadmaster]

Sounds irresponsibly stupid doesn't it. No, if they can't control the illegal guns and gangs why do they expect us to? More innocent kids get killed everyday because of this but they haven't even address the problems. Oh that's right they don't get news coverage because it's not a race thing.

[bladimz]

No, if they can't control the illegal guns and gangs why do they expect us to? More innocent kids get killed everyday because of this but they haven't even address the problems. Oh that's right they don't get news coverage because it's not a race thing.No one is asking Joe Citizen to control illegal gun usage. The fact that black-market gun sales and use overwhelms the Feds, is no reason to walk away from sprees like Sandy Hook without so much as a look backward. These two things are independent of each other, and each needs to be dealt with individually. Gang violence is a beast with multiple heads. Poverty, boredom, poorly-educated, and lack of motivation will still be driving these gangs even if you could take their guns out of the equation... Hey, are you suggesting that we deny them their second amendment rights?

[GrassrootsConservative]

No one is asking Joe Citizen to control illegal gun usage. The fact that black-market gun sales and use overwhelms the Feds, is no reason to walk away from sprees like Sandy Hook without so much as a look backward. These two things are independent of each other, and each needs to be dealt with individually. Gang violence is a beast with multiple heads. Poverty, boredom, poorly-educated, and lack of motivation will still be driving these gangs even if you could take their guns out of the equation... Hey, are you suggesting that we deny them their second amendment rights?

That's called equality, bonehead. When you want to take the guns away from law-abiding citizens, but not from real, ACTUAL CRIMINALS,somebody is going to call for equal rights. It's bound to happen, and you cannot stop it.

[bladimz]

No, if they can't control the illegal guns and gangs why do they expect us to? More innocent kids get killed everyday because of this but they haven't even address the problems. Oh that's right they don't get news coverage because it's not a race thing.No one is asking Joe Citizen to control illegal gun usage. The fact that black-market gun sales and use overwhelms the Feds, is no reason to walk away from sprees like Sandy Hook without so much as a look backward. These two things are independent of each other, and each needs to be dealt with individually. Gang violence is a beast with multiple heads. Poverty, boredom, poorly-educated, and lack of motivation will still be driving these gangs even if you could take their guns out of the equation... Hey, are you suggesting that we deny them their second amendment rights?

[bladimz]

That's called equality, bonehead. When you want to take the guns away from law-abiding citizens, but not from real, ACTUAL CRIMINALS,somebody is going to call for equal rights. It's bound to happen, and you cannot stop it.I might be a bonehead, but at least i know that no one is taking guns away from law-abiding citizens. By the way, Chuckles, the guy who orchestrated the Sandy Hook shooting... wasn't he a "law-abiding citizen" until he mowed those kids and their teachers down?

[GrassrootsConservative]

I might be a bonehead, but at least i know that no one is taking guns away from law-abiding citizens. By the way, Chuckles, the guy who orchestrated the Sandy Hook shooting... wasn't he a "law-abiding citizen" until he mowed those kids and their teachers down?

That hasn't been released yet, but someone did say he has no known criminal record.

If you want to enact gun control laws, the only people who will obey them are non-criminals. How are you going to get criminals to follow the law?

[KC]

That's called equality, bonehead. When you want to take the guns away from law-abiding citizens, but not from real, ACTUAL CRIMINALS,somebody is going to call for equal rights. It's bound to happen, and you cannot stop it.

Please refrain from personal attacks in Other Discussions.

[bladimz]

That hasn't been released yet, but someone did say he has no known criminal record.

If you want to enact gun control laws, the only people who will obey them are non-criminals. How are you going to get criminals to follow the law?Forget the criminal element for the moment...
The idea is for the non-criminals to follow the law. That way, when those non-criminals decide it's time to cross the line, maybe the bloody mess they decide to make won't be as bad. Maybe they won't have that AR-15 under their bed that they would have had otherwise. Maybe they'd only have those 10-capacity clips...

[GrassrootsConservative]

Forget the criminal element for the moment...
The idea is for the non-criminals to follow the law. That way, when those non-criminals decide it's time to cross the line, maybe the bloody mess they decide to make won't be as bad. Maybe they won't have that AR-15 under their bed that they would have had otherwise. Maybe they'd only have those 10-capacity clips...

So 10 people are dead instead of 20? Why don't we work on keeping crazy people out of civilized society and maybe then next time there will be 0 deaths instead of 20?

[Chloe]

So 10 people are dead instead of 20? Why don't we work on keeping crazy people out of civilized society and maybe then next time there will be 0 deaths instead of 20?

How do you keep crazy people out of civilized society though?

[GrassrootsConservative]

How do you keep crazy people out of civilized society though?

By working on awareness for the signs that people are going insane.

And then isolate them.

[Chloe]

There are plenty of normal people out there that have one too many annoying things happen to them in a week and then one final thing sets them off and results in someone getting killed. They weren't crazy but they did a crazy act. Everybody is so worried about illegal criminal mobs with guns storming neighborhoods just because a normal person can't have a military style gun in their house anymore. It's just not going to happen like that.

[Chloe]

By working on awareness for the signs that people are going insane.

And then isolate them.

You don't have to actually be crazy in order to do something crazy

[GrassrootsConservative]

You don't have to actually be crazy in order to do something crazy

Every one of these little shooter people have a burst of people who knew them (unless they were total loners) that all say they "sensed a change" in them over the recent period of time leading up to the shootings. Every one of them. It's always there. Sometimes, as in the case of James Holmes, that change is forced, most likely by the government.

[bladimz]

So 10 people are dead instead of 20? Why don't we work on keeping crazy people out of civilized society and maybe then next time there will be 0 deaths instead of 20?
I don't think we have that technology just yet. But until we do, we'll have to do what we can to keep the damage to a minimum, doncha think?

[bladimz]

By working on awareness for the signs that people are going insane.

And then isolate them.
You'd suggest an "Insane Police" force? Use physical violence if necessary?

[bladimz]

Every one of these little shooter people have a burst of people who knew them (unless they were total loners) that all say they "sensed a change" in them over the recent period of time leading up to the shootings. Every one of them. It's always there. Sometimes, as in the case of James Holmes, that change is forced, most likely by the government.
Wrong. The most common response is "I don't understand it; he was such a nice young man. He kept to himself, but was pleasant to talk to. I wonder what made him do such a thing...". Usually a neighbor or a casual friend.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You'd suggest an "Insane Police" force? Use physical violence if necessary?

Yeah, if you think that's bad you should think about what you're suggesting:
Disarm the whole nation of assault rifles and larger clips. All because of 10 or 12 really messed up people in the last 15 years.

[Carygrant]

That hasn't been released yet, but someone did say he has no known criminal record.

If you want to enact gun control laws, the only people who will obey them are non-criminals. How are you going to get criminals to follow the law?


Just send your opinion formers , politicians and top police to Team GB .
We had 35 gun murders in the last reported full year . America had more than 11000.
Just do it .

[Peter1469]

If a trained operator is limited to 10 round mags, his performance with an AR-15 is not going to be much different as it would be 30 round mags. I can reload in about 1 second if I am counting my shots.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Wrong. The most common response is "I don't understand it; he was such a nice young man. He kept to himself, but was pleasant to talk to. I wonder what made him do such a thing...". Usually a neighbor or a casual friend.

Don't you tell me I'm wrong. I've studied this stuff, dude. Have you really looked at it? You're not wrong except in telling me I am wrong, but what you say is also true:
Those REALLY close to the shooters sense the change, and the people who were only slight acquaintances say they seem nice.


“Somewhere along in the last four years, there were significant changes that led to what has happened,” Novia said. “I could never have foreseen him doing that.”




“I just remember him as a nice, quiet kid,” she said.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/17/divorce-records-reveal-adam-lanzas-mother-had-full-authority-over-him-as-portrait-of-killers-family-life-emerges/

See, these people are quiet, mousey people, that's why they are regarded as nice. "Oh he was such a nice person," or whatever cliche you want to use. They're ticking time-bombs and we need to press education about how to spot them being ready to go off.

It's amazing what people will do when you educate them.
Just saying.