PDA

View Full Version : Where did this "tyranny" nobsense come from...



Awryly
01-12-2013, 08:03 PM
...as the primary reason for arming every US citizen? Americans appear to be highly sensitive, and highly sensitised, to the possibility of being subjected to a tyrannical regime.

Their constitution was framed as time when the US was a young democracy with recent experience of what they thought of as "tyranny". The Brits arrived again in 1812 and half a century later the South got a case of uprighteousness and launched the civil war. So their history makes them a bit trigger-happy.

The odd thing is that they are, in effect, ruled by despots already and don't seem to mind that.

Their argument goes on to reference (a) the French Revolution, (b) the Russian Revolution, (c) the fall of the Wiemar Republic,(d) the Spanish civil war as examples of a need to be constantly fearful and paranoid. Forgetting that all these events took place in totally different circumstances.

And not remembering that there are many democracies where this has not happened for hundreds of years and is so unlikely to ever happen that their citizens never give it a passing thought let alone arm themselves to the teeth.

Of course, the Americans have something unique. They have people like Alex Jones keeping the fear and paranoia alive and thrilling. Most of these people - like Jones, Glen Beck, Hannity, Bachmann, Larry Pratt and associates, and a multitude of others - are, of course, just lining their pockets, exploiting what they see as a "business opportunity" to reach the "American dream" of making pots of money.

But it still has an effect, since millions of Americans are as strange as they are. Probably stranger, because they pay for it.

So, why is America more at risk of being gobbled up by a despot (they don't like) than other (and better) democracies that are also hundreds of years old?

Chris
01-12-2013, 08:08 PM
From dictionary.com:
Origin:
1325–75; ME tyrannie < OF < ML tyrannia, equiv. to L tyrann(us) tyrant + -ia -y3

Awryly
01-12-2013, 08:12 PM
From dictionary.com:
Origin:
1325–75; ME tyrannie < OF < ML tyrannia, equiv. to L tyrann(us) tyrant + -ia -y3

OK. Let's see, against better judgment, what pearl of wisdom he has got for us today.

I see. You're going to be attacked by a dictionary.

Uncle Slam
01-12-2013, 08:38 PM
...as the primary reason for arming every US citizen? Americans appear to be highly sensitive, and highly sensitised, to the possibility of being subjected to a tyrannical regime.

Their constitution was framed as time when the US was a young democracy with recent experience of what they thought of as "tyranny". The Brits arrived again in 1812 and half a century later the South got a case of uprighteousness and launched the civil war. So their history makes them a bit trigger-happy.

The odd thing is that they are, in effect, ruled by despots already and don't seem to mind that.

Their argument goes on to reference (a) the French Revolution, (b) the Russian Revolution, (c) the fall of the Wiemar Republic,(d) the Spanish civil war as examples of a need to be constantly fearful and paranoid. Forgetting that all these events took place in totally different circumstances.

And not remembering that there are many democracies where this has not happened for hundreds of years and is so unlikely to ever happen that their citizens never give it a passing thought let alone arm themselves to the teeth.

Of course, the Americans have something unique. They have people like Alex Jones keeping the fear and paranoia alive and thrilling. Most of these people - like Jones, Glen Beck, Hannity, Bachmann, Larry Pratt and associates, and a multitude of others - are, of course, just lining their pockets, exploiting what they see as a "business opportunity" to reach the "American dream" of making pots of money.

But it still has an effect, since millions of Americans are as strange as they are. Probably stranger, because they pay for it.

So, why is America more at risk of being gobbled up by a despot (they don't like) than other democracies that are also hundreds of years old?

It's because we Americans seem to have this inherent "need" to be paranoid about something. Hell, we're conditioned to be paranoid by Madison Avenue marketing - you're too fat, ugly, your hair is fucked up, your shoes suck, but WE have the product for you! Buy our shirt and get laid tonight! Cradle to grave mass marketing and it's good. It works, otherwise they wouldn't spend zillions of dollars on it. And our media has adopted the "boogey man under your bed and teaching your kids" sales pitch to keep weak-minded people tuning in.

I have some great friends, good, hardworking professional, "educated" people, who fall for this garbage. More so than I have friends who were jaded early on and know better.

GrassrootsConservative
01-12-2013, 08:40 PM
A government that violates the citizens of America with extra taxes nobody wants so the government can spend more money it doesn't need to is in fact a tyranny.

Also... "nobsense?"

Awryly
01-12-2013, 08:58 PM
A government that violates the citizens of America with extra taxes nobody wants so the government can spend more money it doesn't need to is in fact a tyranny.

Also... "nobsense?"

Nonsense perpetrated by nobs.

You qualify.

Awryly
01-12-2013, 09:00 PM
It's because we Americans seem to have this inherent "need" to be paranoid about something. Hell, we're conditioned to be paranoid by Madison Avenue marketing - you're too fat, ugly, your hair is fucked up, your shoes suck, but WE have the product for you! Buy our shirt and get laid tonight! Cradle to grave mass marketing and it's good. It works, otherwise they wouldn't spend zillions of dollars on it. And our media has adopted the "boogey man under your bed and teaching your kids" sales pitch to keep weak-minded people tuning in.

I have some great friends, good, hardworking professional, "educated" people, who fall for this garbage. More so than I have friends who were jaded early on and know better.

So, as I alluded to, and you have confirmed, it is just a part of your consumer society.

Which has consumers for just about anything.

Fear and paranoia is good for business if you are a gun manufacturer. $3.5 billion a year in gun sales seems to suggest that.

And how could I not remember Rush Limbaugh. That mouthpiece of American conservative insanity and the freest of enterprise.

GrassrootsConservative
01-12-2013, 09:00 PM
Nonsense perpetrated by nobs.

You qualify.

It would be your nonsense that I have perpetrated.

JerryAL
01-12-2013, 09:35 PM
A government that violates the citizens of America with extra taxes nobody wants so the government can spend more money it doesn't need to is in fact a tyranny.

The last time I checked you and every other legal American citizen gets to vote for their elected officials.

Kind of hard to have a tyrannical government when it is the people themselves who choose their governmental leaders. Maybe it is some of the citizens themselves who are the actual tyrants.

Chris
01-12-2013, 09:44 PM
OK. Let's see, against better judgment, what pearl of wisdom he has got for us today.

I see. You're going to be attacked by a dictionary.

No, you asked where the word came from, I provided its origins.

Chris
01-12-2013, 09:47 PM
If you want where it was used in America, why that's the Declaration:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Chris
01-12-2013, 09:48 PM
The last time I checked you and every other legal American citizen gets to vote for their elected officials.

Kind of hard to have a tyrannical government when it is the people themselves who choose their governmental leaders. Maybe it is some of the citizens themselves who are the actual tyrants.

Provided those elected actually follow their sworn duty to follow the Constitution.

GrassrootsConservative
01-12-2013, 09:51 PM
Provided those elected actually follow their sworn duty to follow the Constitution.

And they haven't been. But also for the reason I gave.

JerryAL
01-12-2013, 09:56 PM
And they haven't been. But also for the reason I gave.

According to who? The two of you and Rush Limbaugh?

Chris
01-12-2013, 09:58 PM
According to who? The two of you and Rush Limbaugh?

And the basis of your claim, jerry, was, what?

GrassrootsConservative
01-12-2013, 09:58 PM
According to who? The two of you and Rush Limbaugh?

According to almost exactly half the country.

JerryAL
01-12-2013, 10:04 PM
According to almost exactly half the country.

When an American President is actually able to abolish Congress and take away your local and state representation, then you can start your tyranny rants.

Until that happens, your tyranny rants just make you sound like a sore loser.

Chris
01-12-2013, 10:16 PM
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.
~Thomas Jefferson

Awryly
01-12-2013, 10:20 PM
When an American President is actually able to abolish Congress and take away your local and state representation, then you can start your tyranny rants.

Until that happens, your tyranny rants just make you sound like a sore loser.

Thanks for the reminder. The guys who founded your constitution had a few sensible ideas.

Of course, they are over-ridden by your highly-politicised supreme court at every tick of the clock.

So maybe Americans have a reason to be terrified?

Chris
01-12-2013, 10:23 PM
And overridden by Congress and overridden by Presidents.

JerryAL
01-12-2013, 11:11 PM
And overridden by Congress and overridden by Presidents.

That is the fault of the citizens, and their poor choices of representation. Kind of hard to blame a Congress or a President when the citizens are the ones who elect them.

The approval rate for Congress has been consistently below 20% for years, yet the same incumbent Representatives and Senators are almost always re-elected.

It is a simple case of the citizens saying the Representatives and Senators they voted for are great, and it is all the other Representatives and Senators that are bad. Until that mentality changes, the same Representatives and Senators will continue to be sent back to Congress.

KC
01-12-2013, 11:11 PM
The last time I checked you and every other legal American citizen gets to vote for their elected officials.

Kind of hard to have a tyrannical government when it is the people themselves who choose their governmental leaders. Maybe it is some of the citizens themselves who are the actual tyrants.

Tyranny of the majority is certainly possible, where a majority decide to take a way the rights or privileges that ought to be guaranteed to everyone from the minority.

JerryAL
01-12-2013, 11:14 PM
Tyranny of the majority is certainly possible, where a majority decide to take a way the rights or privileges that ought to be guaranteed to everyone from the minority.

What "rights or privileges" of yours have been taken away?

Awryly
01-12-2013, 11:22 PM
Tyranny of the majority is certainly possible, where a majority decide to take a way the rights or privileges that ought to be guaranteed to everyone from the minority.

Majorities elect representatives to rule - make laws an' stuff. Someone has to. So it might as well be those most favoured.

Constitutions exist to limit their powers and make sure minorities (who failed to get representation) get a fair go.

We also use proportional representation to help to ensure minority interests do not get swamped. You guys don't.

You let corporates decide who should rule you.

Awryly
01-12-2013, 11:25 PM
That is the fault of the citizens, and their poor choices of representation. Kind of hard to blame a Congress or a President when the citizens are the ones who elect them.

The approval rate for Congress has been consistently below 20% for years, yet the same incumbent Representatives and Senators are almost always re-elected.

It is a simple case of the citizens saying the Representatives and Senators they voted for are great, and it is all the other Representatives and Senators that are bad. Until that mentality changes, the same Representatives and Senators will continue to be sent back to Congress.

Elect idiots and you get what you deserve.

Being seduced by corporate propaganda increases the chances that you will elect the idiots they want to govern you.

KC
01-12-2013, 11:25 PM
Majorities elect representatives to rule - make laws an' stuff.

Constitutions exist to limit their powers and make sure minorities (who failed to get representation) get a fair go.

We also use proportional representation to help to ensure minority interests do not get swamped. You guys don't.

Right, when elected representatives fail to act within the bounds of the Constitution that is also a form of tyranny.

It can't/won't happen here, but I agree that Proportional Representation in theory (and sometimes in practice) is a better way of electing representatives then First Past the Post or Winner Take All. Proportionality> plurality/majority.

Awryly
01-12-2013, 11:28 PM
Right, when elected representatives fail to act within the bounds of the Constitution that is also a form of tyranny.

It can't/won't happen here, but I agree the Proportional Representation in theory (and sometimes in practice) is a better way of electing representatives then First Past the Post or Winner Take All. Proportionality> plurality/majority.

You have a supreme court for what little that particular institution is worth.

Proportional representation works in many countries, including mine. It's not just a "theory".

Awryly
01-12-2013, 11:32 PM
What "rights or privileges" of yours have been taken away?

He's about to lose the right to own a WMD.

Who wouldn't be upset?

Awryly
01-12-2013, 11:46 PM
And do not forget the "court of public opinion". You guys poll it like lemmings having a final breakfast.

It is powerful. The gun lobby knows that and spends millions wooing it. In vain. A huge majority of Americans want assault weapons banned.

Governments who act against it tend to have a short life span.

I'm sure Obama knows that and is not going to be constrained by a lame congress into displeasing them.

The same goes for the debt ceiling, more taxes on the rich, and spending cuts.

Watch and weep.

Pete7469
01-13-2013, 12:33 AM
...as the primary reason for arming every US citizen? Americans appear to be highly sensitive, and highly sensitised, to the possibility of being subjected to a tyrannical regime.

Their constitution was framed as time when the US was a young democracy with recent experience of what they thought of as "tyranny". The Brits arrived again in 1812 and half a century later the South got a case of uprighteousness and launched the civil war. So their history makes them a bit trigger-happy.

The odd thing is that they are, in effect, ruled by despots already and don't seem to mind that.

Their argument goes on to reference (a) the French Revolution, (b) the Russian Revolution, (c) the fall of the Wiemar Republic,(d) the Spanish civil war as examples of a need to be constantly fearful and paranoid. Forgetting that all these events took place in totally different circumstances.

And not remembering that there are many democracies where this has not happened for hundreds of years and is so unlikely to ever happen that their citizens never give it a passing thought let alone arm themselves to the teeth.

Of course, the Americans have something unique. They have people like Alex Jones keeping the fear and paranoia alive and thrilling. Most of these people - like Jones, Glen Beck, Hannity, Bachmann, Larry Pratt and associates, and a multitude of others - are, of course, just lining their pockets, exploiting what they see as a "business opportunity" to reach the "American dream" of making pots of money.

But it still has an effect, since millions of Americans are as strange as they are. Probably stranger, because they pay for it.

So, why is America more at risk of being gobbled up by a despot (they don't like) than other (and better) democracies that are also hundreds of years old?

The vacuousness of this post, plus the picture of the poster's stupid kick dog compells me to completely disreagard it. She's "12 thousand miles away" from my beloved country, and it's not far enough away. There aren't words strong enough for me to articulate just how hard she can go fuck her stupid dog to death, because obviously no human has ever entertained her, nor can one be found sick enough to even try.

Awryly
01-13-2013, 12:36 AM
The vacuousness of this post, plus the picture of the poster's stupid kick dog compells me to completely disreagard it. She's "12 thousand miles away" from my beloved country, and it's not far enough away. There aren't words strong enough for me to articulate just how hard she can go fuck her stupid dog to death, because obviously no human has ever entertained her, nor can one be found sick enough to even try.


You're a bit upset, are you?

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 12:38 AM
It would be very hard for someone from a constitutional monarchy to understand freedom.

Especially when they are still subject to the rule of the same monarchs that the USA broke away from over 200 years ago.


As far as losing the right to keep and near arms, something that you have in your country, even the dreaded assault weapon. Which is also legal in your country, The NEAr and several Congress people, both Democrats and Republicans announced that they have the votes to block any new gun controls.

This of course means that the President will in fact have to violate the constitution to pass these measures.
This of course would be the same tyranny that you experience u.css the crown. However, we do not stand for that here

Awryly
01-13-2013, 12:39 AM
It would be very hard for someone from a constitutional monarchy to understand freedom.

Especially when they are still subject to the rule of the same monarchs that the USA broke away from over 200 years ago.


As far as losing the right to keep and near arms, something that you have in your country, even the dreaded assault weapon. Which is also legal in your country, The NEAr and several Congress people, both Democrats and Republicans announced that they have the votes to block any new gun controls.

This of course means that the President will in fact have to violate the constitution to pass these measures.
This of course would be the same tyranny that you experience u.css the crown. However, we do not stand for that here


I will take your raving words under consideration.

It may take some time to unravel them.

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 12:41 AM
Please tell me that the pic tire of the dog with browbeat stains is not your dog?


I thought you had that there for a joke.

Awryly
01-13-2013, 12:43 AM
Please tell me that the pic tire of the dog with browbeat stains is not your dog?


I thought you had that there for a joke.

No, indeed.

You're my joke.

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 12:45 AM
I will take your raving words under consideration.

It may take some time.

Have I posted anything that was not True?

After all I took it right from your governments own published definition.

I an sorry I am on my smart phone or I would supply you with the same links you can not dispute again.

Awryly
01-13-2013, 12:47 AM
Have I posted anything that was not True?

After all I took it right from your governments own published definition.

I an sorry I am on my smart phone or I would supply you with the same links you can not dispute again.


You have a 'smart'phone?

What did it do to deserve you?

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 12:49 AM
No, indeed.

You're my joke.

That is kind of funny as I consider you my bitch! Since you can not provide any facts to dispute my links about your island country

And I am guessing that the dust mop is your ???? Dog. I am so sorry

Awryly
01-13-2013, 12:53 AM
That is kind of funny as I consider you my bitch! Since you can not provide any facts to dispute my links about your island country

And I am guessing that the dust mop is your ???? Dog. I am so sorry

My dog sends you her regards and hopes for a full recovery.

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 12:57 AM
Why thank you dog and tell it that my new ankle is coming along quite well. Thanks for asking

Awryly
01-13-2013, 01:17 AM
Why thank you dog and tell it that my new ankle is coming along quite well. Thanks for asking

Just the one new body part?

Run out of insurance?

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 01:32 AM
Just the one new body part?

Run out of insurance?

No I paid cash for this one, not going to.be the reason my employees have a rate increase in the Last year of their insurance.

BB-35
01-13-2013, 08:36 AM
A government that violates the citizens of America with extra taxes nobody wants so the government can spend more money it doesn't need to is in fact a tyranny.

Also... "nobsense?"

Freudian slip,maybe?

Uncle Slam
01-13-2013, 08:48 AM
So, as I alluded to, and you have confirmed, it is just a part of your consumer society.

Which has consumers for just about anything.

Fear and paranoia is good for business if you are a gun manufacturer. $3.5 billion a year in gun sales seems to suggest that.

And how could I not remember Rush Limbaugh. That mouthpiece of American conservative insanity and the freest of enterprise.

I think so. Clinton was a socialist, Bush was a fascist, and now Obama is a communist. Maybe if we get an Asian-American president next, he'll be a Maoist?

Peter1469
01-13-2013, 09:51 AM
To get back to the OP,America started with the simple proposition that the government exists to serve the people. Not the other way around.

Chris
01-13-2013, 11:23 AM
That is the fault of the citizens, and their poor choices of representation. Kind of hard to blame a Congress or a President when the citizens are the ones who elect them.

The approval rate for Congress has been consistently below 20% for years, yet the same incumbent Representatives and Senators are almost always re-elected.

It is a simple case of the citizens saying the Representatives and Senators they voted for are great, and it is all the other Representatives and Senators that are bad. Until that mentality changes, the same Representatives and Senators will continue to be sent back to Congress.

I think you need to understand the nature of pork. While the rest of the country doesn't like it going elsewhere, a politician gets re-elected for bringing it home.

Fenno dis a study of this back in the 70s, see Homestyle (http://wikisum.com/w/Fenno:_Homestyle).

Chris
01-13-2013, 11:26 AM
I think so. Clinton was a socialist, Bush was a fascist, and now Obama is a communist. Maybe if we get an Asian-American president next, he'll be a Maoist?

Clinton had achieved something when he announced the era of big government is over.

Categorically, fascism, communism, nazism, and social democracy are all branches of socialism, one might say implementations of the theory of socialism.

Awryly
01-13-2013, 09:27 PM
So how's all that "tyranny" going?

Awryly
01-13-2013, 09:34 PM
It still remains a curiosity that Americans are so acutely attuned to being subjected to a "tyranny". Possibly that's because they are already tyrannised.

No other Western democracy feels that way,

Does anyone have an explanation?

zelmo1234
01-13-2013, 09:40 PM
It still remains a curiosity that Americans are so acutely attuned to being subjected to a "tyranny". Possibly that's because they are already tyrannised.

No other Western democracy feels that way,

Does anyone have an explanation?

Maybe we just have a different idea of what freedom really is?

And I hope that you are not considering yourself in those counted as a democracy!

http://world-leaders.findthedata.org/q/44/2205/What-type-of-government-does-New-Zealand-have

Awryly
01-13-2013, 10:02 PM
Maybe we just have a different idea of what freedom really is?

And I hope that you are not considering yourself in those counted as a democracy!

http://world-leaders.findthedata.org/q/44/2205/What-type-of-government-does-New-Zealand-have

Have you ever considered applying for a disability allowance?



Parliamentary Democracy (http://world-leaders.findthedata.org/d/b/Parliamentary-Democracy)

http://world-leaders.findthedata.org/q/44/2205/What-type-of-government-does-New-Zealand-have


This from your own link.

Carygrant
01-14-2013, 04:24 AM
OK. Let's see, against better judgment, what pearl of wisdom he has got for us today.

I see. You're going to be attacked by a dictionary.


It's an obsession --- the confusion that labels actually mirror reality and that wisdom comes from comparing labels .

Awryly
01-14-2013, 04:42 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how abysmally naive many Americans, far more so American conservatives, can be.

Take this resistance to "tyranny" business.

The conservative line is that citizens armed (as they are) to the teeth would rise up and overthrow the government, creating some sort of utopia free of government oppression. That's assuming of course that such an uprising would succeed - and establishment forces might have something to say about that.

Even if that were to happen, this view fails to paint any scenario - other than some vaguely glowing one - of what would happen next.

The US is not an homogenous entity. Americans keep on telling me how diverse they are. And it is most likely the rebels and loyalists would not operate homogeneously either together, or separately, in even their largest cohorts. An extraordinary array of disparate and competing groups would emerge in any successful post-revolutionary phase, each one, thanks to the 2nd Amendment, with its own heavily-armed militia.

Faultlines would appear along political lines, ethnic lines, religious lines, socio-economic lines, broad geographic lines, urban/rural lines. Armed conflict between these groups, many of which would contain highly fanatical or desperate elements, would result in civil wars - most likely several at any one time. Those wars would make the 1860 one look like a teddy bears' picnic.

From this chaos would emerge, as emerged in France in 1793, in Russia in 1917, in Spain in 1939, Chile in 1973 and another assortment of South and Central American countries - guess what? - another tyranny far worse than any "tyranny" that preceded it. With the result that Americans would either be back in a worse place than they were when they started (even ignoring all the destruction they created meanwhile) or they would be condemned to decades of civil war. Or until their ammunition ran out.

That's what history tells us. History is not often wrong.

And this does not take account of foreign powers who would no doubt seek to take advantage of such a bizarrely ludicrous situation. I imagine, as one small example, that the Chinese would be quickly ensconced in Taiwan. There would be many other such opportunities, and the end result would be the total collapse of the US "empire".

Carygrant
01-14-2013, 04:59 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how naive Americans, especially American conservatives, can be.

Take this resistance to "tyranny" business.

The conservative line is that citizens armed (as they are) to the teeth would rise up and overthrow the government, creating some sort of utopia free of government oppression. That's assuming of course that such an uprising would succeed - and establishment forces might have something to say about that.

Even if that were to happen, this view fails to paint any scenario - other than some vaguely glowing one - of what would happen next.

The US is not an homogenous entity. Americans keep on telling me how diverse they are. And it is most likely the rebels and loyalists would not operate homogeneously either, together or separately in even their largest cohorts. An extraordinary array of disparate and competing groups would emerge in any successful post-revolutionary phase, each one, thanks to the 2nd Amendment, with its own militia.

Faultlines would appear along political lines, ethnic lines, religious lines, broad geographic lines, urban/rural lines. Armed conflict between these groups, many of which would contain highly fanatical or desperate elements, would result in civil wars - most likely several at any one time. Those wars would make the 1860 one look like a teddy bears' picnic.

From this chaos would emerge, as emerged in France in 1793 and in Russia in 1917 - guess what? - another tyranny far worse than the "tyranny" that preceded it. With the result that Americans would either be back in a worse place than they were when they started (even ignoring all the destruction they created meanwhile) or they would be condemned to decades of civil war.

That's what history tells us. History is not often wrong.


Agreed . Extreme Republicanism is rather mind crushing when you see that there are buffoons who obsessionally believe in it , and their average IQ .
The irony and tragedy is that it is the very same group that caused all of the turmoil and despondency that are now complaining , whining and bitching . Without doubt , the eight year Rep tenure wrecked the US in terms of its strategic policies and inability to regulate . Since the 2007 tsunami , the present Govt has had to bathe wounds and try to restore health with little money --- funds have largely held up the banking system .
Yet these Hilly Billy Monsters behave as though they have no inkling of the truth and almost seem to want to tear down their country as revenge for their loss of power and impending deaths .
America now is in the position where it seems it has to wait until these old , tired white males to die .

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 07:38 AM
It's an obsession --- the confusion that labels actually mirror reality and that wisdom comes from comparing labels .

I will answer both" subjects "in one post to save time!

Both of you in your own government sites live in a parlimentary Democracy incompased in a constitutional monarchy there fore you are still by all definitions of the word "subjects" but subjects with rights I will give you that.

AW like to cherry pick the link to try and break free of the bonds of the crown, without the courage of revolution, like of course we did back in 1776. Cary will remember this it was at this time that his country started to sink it to the irrelivant country that it is today.

Chris
01-14-2013, 07:39 AM
It still remains a curiosity that Americans are so acutely attuned to being subjected to a "tyranny". Possibly that's because they are already tyrannised.

No other Western democracy feels that way,

Does anyone have an explanation?

I submit it will always remain a mystery to you since you reject or ignore all the explanations that you dislike because it doesn't fit your anti-American trolling agenda.

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 07:40 AM
Have you ever considered applying for a disability allowance?


This from your own link.

What is the next line in the link AW do tell us???????????? we are waiting. could it be Constitutional Monarchy????? HMMMMM Could be!

Remember to use race for doulbe word score and class warfare it the trifecta (thought I would toss that in for the other "subject" on the forum

Chris
01-14-2013, 07:45 AM
Agreed . Extreme Republicanism is rather mind crushing when you see that there are buffoons who obsessionally believe in it , and their average IQ .
The irony and tragedy is that it is the very same group that caused all of the turmoil and despondency that are now complaining , whining and bitching . Without doubt , the eight year Rep tenure wrecked the US in terms of its strategic policies and inability to regulate . Since the 2007 tsunami , the present Govt has had to bathe wounds and try to restore health with little money --- funds have largely held up the banking system .
Yet these Hilly Billy Monsters behave as though they have no inkling of the truth and almost seem to want to tear down their country as revenge for their loss of power and impending deaths .
America now is in the position where it seems it has to wait until these old , tired white males to die .

I nominate this post as well-poisoning of the day!! Nice bunch of name calling against any disagreement with your version of the truth.

Your prose is slipping again, way too overworked, way to crabbed.

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 07:49 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how abysmally naive many Americans, far more so American conservatives, can be.

Take this resistance to "tyranny" business.

The conservative line is that citizens armed (as they are) to the teeth would rise up and overthrow the government, creating some sort of utopia free of government oppression. That's assuming of course that such an uprising would succeed - and establishment forces might have something to say about that.

Even if that were to happen, this view fails to paint any scenario - other than some vaguely glowing one - of what would happen next.

The US is not an homogenous entity. Americans keep on telling me how diverse they are. And it is most likely the rebels and loyalists would not operate homogeneously either together, or separately, in even their largest cohorts. An extraordinary array of disparate and competing groups would emerge in any successful post-revolutionary phase, each one, thanks to the 2nd Amendment, with its own heavily-armed militia.

Faultlines would appear along political lines, ethnic lines, religious lines, socio-economic lines, broad geographic lines, urban/rural lines. Armed conflict between these groups, many of which would contain highly fanatical or desperate elements, would result in civil wars - most likely several at any one time. Those wars would make the 1860 one look like a teddy bears' picnic.

From this chaos would emerge, as emerged in France in 1793, in Russia in 1917, in Spain in 1939, Chile in 1973 and another assortment of South and Central American countries - guess what? - another tyranny far worse than any "tyranny" that preceded it. With the result that Americans would either be back in a worse place than they were when they started (even ignoring all the destruction they created meanwhile) or they would be condemned to decades of civil war. Or until their ammunition ran out.

That's what history tells us. History is not often wrong.

And this does not take account of foreign powers who would no doubt seek to take advantage of such a bizarrely ludicrous situation. I imagine, as one small example, that the Chinese would be quickly ensconced in Taiwan. There would be many other such opportunities, and the end result would be the total collapse of the US "empire".

You forgot one AW. The United States of America. 1776 that would be a posibility too, woudl it not, because this administration has a distain for the document that created this country, and that is what all of the trouble is about.

But I do understand that you and cary have no possible way of thinking like americans, you never broke free of the crown, and experenced true freedom! So it is quit possible that you will never understand it.

Thus you live in a fantasy world, that liveralism works, even though conoservitive balues are leading your countries economic turn around, and cary lives in a violent, unemployed, wealth starved hell hole called the UK

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 07:52 AM
I nominate this post as well-poisoning of the day!! Nice bunch of name calling against any disagreement with your version of the truth.

Your prose is slipping again, way too overworked, way to crabbed.

You have to be a little tolerant after all he works in the alcohol industry so we know he drinks, he lives in the second most violent country in the wealthy world, about 13 people a day are killing themselves because his hations economy is so depressed and he is a subjet of the crown.

Hell that is enough to amke anyone crabby

Awryly
01-14-2013, 08:00 AM
I will answer both" subjects "in one post to save time!

Both of you in your own government sites live in a parlimentary Democracy incompased in a constitutional monarchy there fore you are still by all definitions of the word "subjects" but subjects with rights I will give you that.

AW like to cherry pick the link to try and break free of the bonds of the crown, without the courage of revolution, like of course we did back in 1776. Cary will remember this it was at this time that his country started to sink it to the irrelivant country that it is today.

What are you drivelling about now? The thesis of the post you are supposedly addressing was whether Americans had learned/could learn anything from history.

Oh, I forgot. It's that education thing again. Buy yourself another gun.

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 08:10 AM
What are you drivelling about now? The thesis of the post you are supposedly addressing was whether Americans had learned/could learn anything from history.

Oh, I forgot. It's that education thing again. Buy yourself another gun.

I did as a matter of fact! Nice addition and after restoration will preserve some of cary's history quite nicely!

Chris
01-14-2013, 08:20 AM
You have to be a little tolerant after all he works in the alcohol industry so we know he drinks, he lives in the second most violent country in the wealthy world, about 13 people a day are killing themselves because his hations economy is so depressed and he is a subjet of the crown.

Hell that is enough to amke anyone crabby

I'll try. His harassment will be his own undoing anyway.

Carygrant
01-14-2013, 08:21 AM
I will answer both" subjects "in one post to save time!

Both of you in your own government sites live in a parlimentary Democracy incompased in a constitutional monarchy there fore you are still by all definitions of the word "subjects" but subjects with rights I will give you that.
AW like to cherry pick the link to try and break free of the bonds of the crown, without the courage of revolution, like of course we did back in 1776. Cary will remember this it was at this time that his country started to sink it to the irrelivant country that it is today.

Like Mister Dee , once you start telling me how my own country is set up and run , I just get the giggles .
You clearly have never studied or understood the basis of how and why we rule the way we do . And I trust you have never visited because, if you had , that would be like admitting to being stone deaf and blind .
One thing you would learn , if you came here and started talking about 1776 , is that barely one person in several hundred would have any idea of its special relevance . The US simply does not register with us in positive terms . In '76 we were occupied with Europe and France in particular and our poor King , George , was literally body poisoned . Since then our interest has dropped even further once moronic pop culture is put on one side .
And just to correct your basic misunderstanding of a wider history , our Empire was at its height AFTER we had rid ourselves of squirrel shooting Americans , diverting us from the real global trophies .
Because you are isolated as a country , you have become isolated as a people . Materialism confused you and for a couple of generations you really believed you were world important .
But the truth is , you are still a bunch of squirrel hunters but now use your guns on anybody and everybody , especially your selves .
It is only when rarely someone comes across with style , class and culture that we get interested . Obama is one such person .

Chris
01-14-2013, 08:25 AM
once you start telling me how my own country is set up and run , I just get the giggles .

The giggling self-contradiction by an anti-American who comes here to tell us how our country is set up and run.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 08:43 AM
The giggling self-contradiction by an anti-American who comes here to tell us how our country is set up and run.

If we were smart, we'd turn off cable news and throw those pitiful, squeeky newspapers away, and start researching how our country really IS run. It certainly isn't how they or the politicians say it is.

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 08:45 AM
I have to visit you country, but I wold guess that you have never visited ours. If you would like to I will be your person tour guide, and promise to leave all my guns at home until after you leave

I like you country, and can tell you that most of your citizens view americans as there brothers, and have a very fond view of our nation. I ahve great fun in jest with many!

But like in our country you have those tha are filled with hatred and violence. For you to continue to deny that is senseless. We struggle with the same demons. We both have elements that are racist, on the right and the left, and we struggle with that.

Some how your heart has become filled with hate and detest, and you are either blind to the facts that as nations we have the same struggles. You assume that all americans are Hilbillies as you like to refer us to and that all conservatives are old white men

This is also not true. I really think that you have a strong intelligence, but yur emotion of hate has made you a fool. and unfortunatly you bring nothing of value to your position. It is really quite sad.

I have traveled much and seen the best of people and the absolute worst of people, in ever palce that I have visited. It is a shame that you have allowed youself to become so effected by hate and distrust.

But I will leave you with this. You appear to like intelectual humor. so if you youtube Colin Quinn a long story short, i beleive that you will have a great laugh and maybe it will lighten your heart for the day.

Chris
01-14-2013, 08:58 AM
If we were smart, we'd turn off cable news and throw those pitiful, squeeky newspapers away, and start researching how our country really IS run. It certainly isn't how they or the politicians say it is.

I did that, turned off cable news and unsubscribe local paper in the days following 9/11. They horribly sensationalized that tragedy. On occasional I'll channel surf to one only to reaffirm my decision.

Chris
01-14-2013, 08:59 AM
If we were smart, we'd turn off cable news and throw those pitiful, squeeky newspapers away, and start researching how our country really IS run. It certainly isn't how they or the politicians say it is.

I did that, turned off cable and unsubscribe local paper in the days following 9/11. They horribly sensationalized that tragedy.

But where would these American hating foreigners like cary and awryly get their misinformation of they did that?

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 09:02 AM
I did that, turned off cable and unsubscribe local paper in the days following 9/11. They horribly sensationalized that tragedy.

But where would these American hating foreigners like cary and awryly get their misinformation of they did that?


No idea where they get it, other than that I do know their education system is more effective than ours.

Chris
01-14-2013, 09:08 AM
No idea where they get it, other than that I do know their education system is more effective than ours.

Being more effective at indoctrination is not something to brag about.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 09:10 AM
Being more effective at indoctrination is not something to brag about.

We have the indoctrination education system - that's why they're run like prisons and factories. Having been around many exchange students for decades from all over the world, it's impressive. We're not near the bottom world-wide in all major compairative studies for nothing. They may have indoctrination, but they get educated too.

Chris
01-14-2013, 09:36 AM
We have the indoctrination education system - that's why they're run like prisons and factories. Having been around many exchange students for decades from all over the world, it's impressive. We're not near the bottom world-wide in all major compairative studies for nothing. They may have indoctrination, but they get educated too.

If education is about teaching people how to think and not what to think--and it ought to be--how do you measure that to make such comparative claims?

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 09:41 AM
If education is about teaching people how to think and not what to think--and it ought to be--how do you measure that to make such comparative claims?

It isn't about that at all. It's about reaching your intellectual potential. What you described is indoctrination. That has nothing to do with critical thinking, which this country has pretty much abandoned. Education is no longer valued here, as a whole, although some pockets do excel.

Chris
01-14-2013, 09:46 AM
It isn't about that at all. It's about reaching your intellectual potential. What you described is indoctrination. That has nothing to do with critical thinking, which this country has pretty much abandoned. Education is no longer valued here, as a whole, although some pockets do excel.

You can't change a person's intelligence. Critical thinking is achieved through training. It is a matter of how you think, not what. Again, I ask, how do you measure that? Apply some critical thinking to this.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 10:07 AM
You can't change a person's intelligence. Critical thinking is achieved through training. It is a matter of how you think, not what. Again, I ask, how do you measure that? Apply some critical thinking to this.

Can't. Not as smart as you. Is anyone?

Carygrant
01-14-2013, 11:00 AM
The giggling self-contradiction by an anti-American who comes here to tell us how our country is set up and run.


If you are representative , you jolly well need help from the likes of Riley and my good self .
But yet again your General Comprehension lets you down .
Neither of us tell you how your country is set up . But we do comment on the consequences of your actions , which is what any good Forum likes to discuss and chat over .
Except you , along with other Hilly Billy Extremists , who only want to hear the nice bits and immediately start name calling when your pride is dented just a little .
Why "hate" us because we were fortunate to be better educated and travel more ?

zelmo1234
01-14-2013, 11:52 AM
So when are you coming back over here cary? offer still stands as a tour guide. no drinking until after 5 here though

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 11:53 AM
If you are representative , you jolly well need help from the likes of Riley and my good self .
But yet again your General Comprehension lets you down .
Neither of us tell you how your country is set up . But we do comment on the consequences of your actions , which is what any good Forum likes to discuss and chat over .
Except you , along with other Hilly Billy Extremists , who only want to hear the nice bits and immediately start name calling when your pride is dented just a little .
Why "hate" us because we were fortunate to be better educated and travel more ?

Hilly Billy Extremists in America? We have those? hahahaha

Chris
01-14-2013, 12:01 PM
Can't. Not as smart as you. Is anyone?

Most people.

Chris
01-14-2013, 12:02 PM
Can't. Not as smart as you. Is anyone?

Most people.

Chris
01-14-2013, 12:05 PM
If you are representative , you jolly well need help from the likes of Riley and my good self .
But yet again your General Comprehension lets you down .
Neither of us tell you how your country is set up . But we do comment on the consequences of your actions , which is what any good Forum likes to discuss and chat over .
Except you , along with other Hilly Billy Extremists , who only want to hear the nice bits and immediately start name calling when your pride is dented just a little .
Why "hate" us because we were fortunate to be better educated and travel more ?

I'm not representative.
I comprehend quite well.
You do try to tell us.
I want to hear critical analysis that uses facts and logic.
I don't hate your arrogance.

Awryly
01-14-2013, 07:54 PM
No idea where they get it, other than that I do know their education system is more effective than ours.

I get my information from the Bugs Bunny Channel and American Uberheroes.com.

Chris
01-14-2013, 08:18 PM
I get my information from the Bugs Bunny Channel and American Uberheroes.com.

And here I thought you were just making it up.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 08:35 PM
I get my information from the Bugs Bunny Channel and American Uberheroes.com.

More credible than our corporate media.

Awryly
01-14-2013, 08:58 PM
[QUOTE=Uncle Slam;215669]More credible than our corporate media.[/QUOT

Mea culpa. I do have a wee peek at Russia Today. Abby Martin on "Breaking the Set" seems to have Americans sussed.

Overall, a biased but well-balanced channel. Like taking an overdose of vitamin C.

Among other things, it takes the probably legitimate view that Americans make bad parents.

Chris
01-14-2013, 09:26 PM
Mea culpa. I do have a wee peek at Russia Today. Abby Martin on "Breaking the Set" seems to have Americans sussed.

Overall, a biased but well-balanced channel. Like taking an overdose of vitamin C.

Among other things, it takes the probably legitimate view that Americans make bad parents.

"biased but well-balanced"

LOL, do you know how to spell oxymoron?

Peter1469
01-14-2013, 09:55 PM
[QUOTE=Uncle Slam;215669]More credible than our corporate media.[/QUOT

Mea culpa. I do have a wee peek at Russia Today. Abby Martin on "Breaking the Set" seems to have Americans sussed.

Overall, a biased but well-balanced channel. Like taking an overdose of vitamin C.

Among other things, it takes the probably legitimate view that Americans make bad parents.

Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. It is water soluble and you cannot OD on it. But, you can block the absorption of other nutrients if you take too much.

Awryly
01-14-2013, 09:57 PM
[QUOTE=Awryly;215683]

Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. It is water soluble and you cannot OD on it. But, you can block the absorption of other nutrients if you take too much.

Thanks for that.

It was a metaphor.

Vitamin-wise.

Adelaide
01-14-2013, 10:03 PM
Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. It is water soluble and you cannot OD on it. But, you can block the absorption of other nutrients if you take too much.

Vitamin C 'overdose' in pregnancy can cause rebound scurvy in the unborn child due to the child developing a resistence/intolerance to vitamin C... interesting random fact.

Anyways... I've always found the tyranny argument to be a bit paranoid, but Canada didn't have a violent independence or civil war so I think it's a cultural thing.

Awryly
01-14-2013, 10:07 PM
Vitamin C 'overdose' in pregnancy can cause rebound scurvy in the unborn child due to the child developing a resistence/intolerance to vitamin C... interesting random fact.

Anyways... I've always found the tyranny argument to be a bit paranoid, but Canada didn't have a violent independence or civil war so I think it's a cultural thing.


What is the effect of watching Fox News on pregnant mothers?

Is the child likely to come into the world armed with an AR 15?

Take one look and shoot itself in the head? Unless, of course, it's Republican. In which case it will shoot its mother.

Peter1469
01-14-2013, 10:17 PM
Vitamin C 'overdose' in pregnancy can cause rebound scurvy in the unborn child due to the child developing a resistence/intolerance to vitamin C... interesting random fact.

Anyways... I've always found the tyranny argument to be a bit paranoid, but Canada didn't have a violent independence or civil war so I think it's a cultural thing.

Vitamin C can block other nutrients if taken in excess. It isn't technically an overdoes, but it certainly is not good.

Peter1469
01-14-2013, 10:17 PM
What is the effect of watching Fox News on pregnant mothers?

Is the child likely to come into the world armed with an AR 15?

Take one look and shoot itself in the head? Unless, of course, it's Republican. In which case it will shoot its mother.

Pregnant mothers should listen to classical music and keep their feet up.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 12:25 AM
I see I have to repeat myself yet again.

What constitutes tyranny sufficient to take up all those arms the NRA is giving you to resist "tyranny"?

Peter1469
01-15-2013, 12:29 AM
I see I have to repeat myself yet again.

What constitutes tyranny sufficient to take up all those arms the NRA is giving you to resist "tyranny"?

Asked and answered: do the civilians serve the government; or does the government serve the civilians.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 12:39 AM
Asked and answered: do the civilians serve the government; or does the government serve the civilians.

OK. I'll take that as: "I haven't got a clue."

Peter1469
01-15-2013, 12:58 AM
OK. I'll take that as: "I haven't got a clue."


I knew that.

That is what made America different.

Carygrant
01-15-2013, 05:57 AM
No, you asked where the word came from, I provided its origins.

Troll

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 06:11 AM
OK. I'll take that as: "I haven't got a clue."

This has been answered by no less than 3 people, because you do not like the answered does not mean that you can claim is was un answered.

There is no possible way that cary and yourself can understand what earned freedom is like or worth.

You were given freedoms from a failing empire but still are in fact "subjects" of the crown, acording to your own governments definitions.

We now have a President that is promising to act like a King and inflict measusres on the american people against the rules of our constitution, which is the document that sealed and protected the freedom that we fought to gain from a tyrantical king. Thus the document holds a very special place in our hearts. To violate it is the highest crime in the land.

Like you said you have a constitution but novody talks about it? why because it was written by people granted some freedoms with the direction and approval of the crown. Thus you had these rules inflicted on you, even in the making of your cosntitution.

Thus the document means little because it was granted not fought for.

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 06:12 AM
Troll

"subject"

Awryly
01-15-2013, 06:55 AM
Preposition

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 07:41 AM
AW

I must apoligize, it was in another thread that we answered you question on what would constitute taking up arms against your country.

First let be say the I hope and Pray that it would never come to this, but it appears that we ahve a President that hates the constitution so much that he is going to try and destroy it.

Hopefull the congress will be able to stop him.

http://jpfo.org/your10rights/pdf-doc/bortext.pdf

This has an explanation of each of these rights, so I thought it might help you understand.

But we have a Government that with out legal process is starting to strip these rights away from the people.

If he destroys the second amendment, and starts illegal search and confiscation that would further this violation.

These violations of the bill of rights woule represent the same conditions that we faced in 1776, especially with taxation becomeing more opressive. And the dual taxations of capital gains.

http://www.latinorebels.com/2012/07/04/the-declaration-of-independence-the-full-text-in-english-and-spanish/

In facing those same conditions of opression with the violations of the bill of rights, it would infact infringe on the rights of Life and Liberty, and to some possibly the persuit of happiness.

With the violations of the Second, 4th, 5th and 9th amendment that would have taken place.

It would be infact the right of the people it throw off the bonds of the opressive govnenment, and install a new one.

So the short answer is the removal of any of the rights from the declaration of the bill of rights, and the inforcement of those policies. with out the proper legislative actions being taken. (laws passed through congress, the senate, signed by the president, and not found unconstitutional by the courts.) but inflicted on the people by a tyrantical leader though excutive orders and enforcment.

That would be reason to stand in defiance to you government!

But we hope that it wil not come to that, we have legal ways to address the problem up to and even exceeding the romoval of such tyrants from office through impeachment and conviction.

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:06 AM
Troll

Providing the origins of a word is trolling? You've gone from making up insults to making up meanings. http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/567/1sm074hole.gif

Carygrant
01-15-2013, 08:20 AM
Providing the origins of a word is trolling? You've gone from making up insults to making up meanings. http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/567/1sm074hole.gif


I have gone deaf .
But I have matched the right name with the right caption . You can argue ad infinitum about how many Fairies can stand on a pin head . But I can shout out that I have found and captured the pin head .

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:30 AM
I have gone deaf .
But I have matched the right name with the right caption . You can argue ad infinitum about how many Fairies can stand on a pin head . But I can shout out that I have found and captured the pin head .

Sorry to hear you've gone deaf. I'll bet you can still hear your own sound and fury.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 09:46 AM
AW

I must apoligize, it was in another thread that we answered you question on what would constitute taking up arms against your country.

First let be say the I hope and Pray that it would never come to this, but it appears that we ahve a President that hates the constitution so much that he is going to try and destroy it.

Hopefull the congress will be able to stop him.

http://jpfo.org/your10rights/pdf-doc/bortext.pdf

This has an explanation of each of these rights, so I thought it might help you understand.

But we have a Government that with out legal process is starting to strip these rights away from the people.

If he destroys the second amendment, and starts illegal search and confiscation that would further this violation.

These violations of the bill of rights woule represent the same conditions that we faced in 1776, especially with taxation becomeing more opressive. And the dual taxations of capital gains.

http://www.latinorebels.com/2012/07/04/the-declaration-of-independence-the-full-text-in-english-and-spanish/

In facing those same conditions of opression with the violations of the bill of rights, it would infact infringe on the rights of Life and Liberty, and to some possibly the persuit of happiness.

With the violations of the Second, 4th, 5th and 9th amendment that would have taken place.

It would be infact the right of the people it throw off the bonds of the opressive govnenment, and install a new one.

So the short answer is the removal of any of the rights from the declaration of the bill of rights, and the inforcement of those policies. with out the proper legislative actions being taken. (laws passed through congress, the senate, signed by the president, and not found unconstitutional by the courts.) but inflicted on the people by a tyrantical leader though excutive orders and enforcment.

That would be reason to stand in defiance to you government!

But we hope that it wil not come to that, we have legal ways to address the problem up to and even exceeding the romoval of such tyrants from office through impeachment and conviction.

Presidential executives orders are perfectly legal as long as they are made within the law. Every president has made them.

Republicans will scream 'abuse of power' but then they would, wouldn't they?

Chris
01-15-2013, 10:02 AM
Presidential executives orders are perfectly legal as long as they are made within the law.

And the Constitution.

Any order to restrict guns will likely fail SCOTUS scrutiny for overstepping his powers.

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 03:08 PM
Presidential executives orders are perfectly legal as long as they are made within the law. Every president has made them.

Republicans will scream 'abuse of power' but then they would, wouldn't they?

Yes and Excutive order in contrast to the second amendment would not be within the law, they wold be in fact unconstitutional!

We have a President that thinks he is king or a god. The divide in this ocuntry is reacing a boiling point.

He does nothing to try and work with the other side, and trys to make a mocery of the constitution, I do think that the wimps in the repubican party have had just about enough.

time tocall his bluff ! We know that they ahve enough votes to bring articles of Impeachment against him if he try/s to overturn the constitution with excutive orders. The country is turing against him each and every day. And now that fool is bringing in children to try and guilt those that oppose him into submission.

Word has it that the republicans are going to bring in children that have been saved by guns! So apparently the are stooping to new lows too!

But we know one thing for sure, we can always tell when our president is lying, because his lips are moving! What a worthless individual!

Awryly
01-15-2013, 08:27 PM
Alas for you, there are only a handful of like-minded nutters around.

Most Americans favour restrictions on guns, more taxes/fewer tax exemptions for the rich, not becoming a third-rate economy, and so on.

You may call Obama Satan as much as you like. But with that sort of backing, he will deliver you legally into hell.

With due process. Controls on guns have legally existed before.

Now, the insurrection you are much enamoured of talking about would face the full and rightful force of the government's forces and the wrath of most of your compatriots.

Where do you go from there? Take to the woods?

Peter1469
01-15-2013, 08:30 PM
Alas for you, there are only a handful of like-minded nutters around.

Most Americans favour restrictions on guns, more taxes/fewer tax exemptions for the rich, and so on.

You may call Obama Satan as much as you like. But with that sort of backing, he will deliver you unto hell.

With due process.

Well you are correct that calling Obama Satan is over the top.

He is more like King George....

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:37 PM
Alas for you, there are only a handful of like-minded nutters around.

Most Americans favour restrictions on guns, more taxes/fewer tax exemptions for the rich, and so on.

You may call Obama Satan as much as you like. But with that sort of backing, he will deliver you legally into hell.

With due process. Controls on guns have legally existed before.

Now, the insurrection you are much enamoured of talking about would face the full and rightful force of the government's forces and the wrath of most ordinary Americans.

Where do you go from there?


Most Americans favour restrictions on guns

Not true:

http://i.snag.gy/thLnM.jpg

If it were it would be one reason why we're not a democracy where majoritarian whims rule.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
Not true:

http://i.snag.gy/thLnM.jpg

If it were it would be one reason why we're not a democracy where majoritarian whims rule.

True.

http://www.publicagenda.org/charts/two-thirds-americans-favor-stricter-gun-control-laws-just-one-third-favor-ban-sale-all-handgunshttp://www.publicagenda.org/files/charts/rf_crime_gunlaws_a.png

And that's just hand-guns.

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:44 PM
True.

http://www.publicagenda.org/charts/two-thirds-americans-favor-stricter-gun-control-laws-just-one-third-favor-ban-sale-all-handgunshttp://www.publicagenda.org/files/charts/rf_crime_gunlaws_a.png

That's a poll on gun sales, not on "Most Americans favour restrictions on guns".

What even Pew finds is people tend to favor background checks at gun shows--which might indicate how much people are misled since most gun shows require that already.


On edit, it should also be noted that your polls was taken 4/07 immediately following the shootings at Virginia Tech.

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 08:56 PM
True.

http://www.publicagenda.org/charts/two-thirds-americans-favor-stricter-gun-control-laws-just-one-third-favor-ban-sale-all-handgunshttp://www.publicagenda.org/files/charts/rf_crime_gunlaws_a.png

And that's just hand-guns.

AW

First I want to commend you on posting some factual information Thank You!

I agree with somethings that can be done and things that your country has had some success with.

I beleive in a background check for all non family sales. And I belive in some training.

I also beleive that having backgroind check like this will get expensive. So the way to get around this is to liecense people to purchase guns with safty training.

This is not bad of restrictive policy, it is comon sense!

Now if you look at the 2 charts in this post you will notice that your is from a liberal paper and network and from April of 2007

His was more recent. and whiel we may look like the wild west, our violence rates are droping.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 08:56 PM
That's a poll on gun sales, not on "Most Americans favour restrictions on guns".

What even Pew finds is people tend to favor background checks at gun shows--which might indicate how much people are misled since most gun shows require that already.


On edit, it should also be noted that your polls was taken 4/07 immediately following the shootings at Virginia Tech.

So you think several more massacres would show a result that more Americans favour less gun control?

Now that they're more used to being shot up?

Well you would be wrong yet again.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/01/on-eve-of-newtown-recommendations-most-back-new-gun-control-measures/

Chris
01-15-2013, 09:01 PM
So you think several more massacres would show a result that more Americans favour less gun control?

Now that they're more used to being shot up?

Why do you want to put words in my mouth?

The facts is these mass shootings are few and far between and the rate has been dropping rapidly.

http://i.snag.gy/mhx2m.jpg.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 09:08 PM
Good grief. Doesn't that comparison with other OECD countries make your blood chill?

And since you are so besotted by links, where is it?

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 09:08 PM
So you think several more massacres would show a result that more Americans favour less gun control?

Now that they're more used to being shot up?

the question is? Will gund control measures really stop the violence or are they just feel good measures that actually make things worse?

If they actaully make things worse or increase violence, then that would be bad legislations, can we agree on that?

http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/letters/14160460-474/cdc-exposes-gun-control-myths.html

So if we are going to inact laws lets just make them worse.

Chris
01-15-2013, 09:18 PM
Good grief. Doesn't that comparison with other OECD countries make your blood chill?

And since you are so besotted by links, where is it?

Changing topics so soon?

Chris
01-15-2013, 09:18 PM
the question is? Will gund control measures really stop the violence or are they just feel good measures that actually make things worse?

If they actaully make things worse or increase violence, then that would be bad legislations, can we agree on that?

http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/letters/14160460-474/cdc-exposes-gun-control-myths.html

So if we are going to inact laws lets just make them worse.

Vote buying feel good measures.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 09:27 PM
Changing topics so soon?

No, that was your idea by introducing a chart that has nothing to do with the topic.

A chart which describes "assault deaths" and says nothing about guns, let alone what Americans feel about them.

Try to concentrate. On this for starters:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...trol-measures/ (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/01/on-eve-of-newtown-recommendations-most-back-new-gun-control-measures/)

Awryly
01-15-2013, 09:29 PM
the question is? Will gund control measures really stop the violence or are they just feel good measures that actually make things worse?

If they actaully make things worse or increase violence, then that would be bad legislations, can we agree on that?

http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/letters/14160460-474/cdc-exposes-gun-control-myths.html

So if we are going to inact laws lets just make them worse.

Ah, so gun laws may not work? So you shouldn't try to deal with the gun problem?

Nihilist, are you?

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 09:49 PM
AW not only did they not work, but they had the opposite effect.

They did a ten year study and the only thing that had positve results was more guns less crime?

So do you want gun control, or do you want less violent crime?

This may be because we have so many guns and it may work in some other places, but here gun control like they ahve in chicago, is creating a battle field.

Peter1469
01-15-2013, 09:54 PM
Gun crime in the US dropped like a rock when the "assault" weapon bad lapsed.

I used the quotes because the ban was not on real "assault" weapons.

Chris
01-15-2013, 10:38 PM
No, that was your idea by introducing a chart that has nothing to do with the topic.

A chart which describes "assault deaths" and says nothing about guns, let alone what Americans feel about them.

Try to concentrate. On this for starters:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...trol-measures/ (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/01/on-eve-of-newtown-recommendations-most-back-new-gun-control-measures/)

My post directly addressed a false statement in your post.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 10:46 PM
AW not only did they not work, but they had the opposite effect.

They did a ten year study and the only thing that had positve results was more guns less crime?

So do you want gun control, or do you want less violent crime?

This may be because we have so many guns and it may work in some other places, but here gun control like they ahve in chicago, is creating a battle field.

Where is this study? And who did it? Rasmussen?

Awryly
01-15-2013, 10:48 PM
My post directly address a false statement in your post.

You never directly address anything.

You pussyfoot around like a cat with a poker up its arse.

Chris
01-15-2013, 11:00 PM
You never directly address anything.

You pussyfoot around like a cat with a poker up its arse.

See http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/10120-Where-did-this-quot-tyranny-quot-nobsense-come-from?p=216246&viewfull=1#post216246

Why do you lie?

Awryly
01-15-2013, 11:09 PM
Gun crime in the US dropped like a rock when the "assault" weapon bad lapsed.

I used the quotes because the ban was not on real "assault" weapons.

You have no statistics that support that and even fewer that accurately attribute causality.

Chris
01-15-2013, 11:12 PM
You have no statistics that support that and even fewer that accurately attribute causality.

http://i.snag.gy/aplEZ.jpg

Awryly
01-15-2013, 11:12 PM
See http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/10120-Where-did-this-quot-tyranny-quot-nobsense-come-from?p=216246&viewfull=1#post216246

Why do you lie?

I don't. I tell the truth to infuriate:spacecraft::spacecraft: your sad little mind.

Chris
01-15-2013, 11:14 PM
I don't. I tell the truth to infuriate:spacecraft::spacecraft: your sad little mind.

I just demonstrated you lie. You're also making things up if you think it infuriates. You may think your a powerful troll, but you're not.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 11:17 PM
http://i.snag.gy/aplEZ.jpg

No link. No causality.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 11:20 PM
I just demonstrated you lie. You're also making things up if you think it infuriates. You may think your a powerful troll, but you're not.

No. It is YOU who thinks I am a powerful troll.

Which is a contradiction in terms on my own threads.

Thus I must be a powerful something else.

Medicine?

BTW, by definition. it is you who are the troll. :deadhorse::yo::yo:

Since it is you who infests my threads. I wonder why?

Chris
01-15-2013, 11:55 PM
No link. No causality.

No one claimed causality.

Chris
01-15-2013, 11:58 PM
No link. No causality.

No one claimed causality. Peter claimed a drop in gun crime after the assault weapon ban lapsed. The gragh suppirts that.

Awryly
01-15-2013, 11:58 PM
No one claimed causality.

Ah so, Because you have no clue whether there was any.

It could have been drugs, it could have been marital discord, it could have been Mickey Mouse.

I imagine you will go for Mickey Mouse. Bein' kith and kin an' all.

Chris
01-16-2013, 12:02 AM
You left out the part about supporting what peter said. You said there was no support for that. You Are were shiwn wrong...again.

Awryly
01-16-2013, 12:12 AM
You left out the part about supporting what peter said. You said there was no support for that. You Are were shiwn wrong...again.

Since that makes no sense, and you appear to love nonsense, let me introduce you to the finest nonsense (American republic aside) that has ever been invented.


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

GW Bush tried to match it.

But failed miserably.

Peter1469
01-16-2013, 05:59 AM
It is a 100% fact that violence in America has dropped since the end of the assault weapons ban. Correlation
does not = causation, but it is reasonable to at least consider the possibility that when criminals think that their potential victims are armed, there is less crime.

I have been amazed at the liberal professors who study this issue who turn into 2nd Amendment supporters.

Awryly
01-16-2013, 09:01 AM
It is a 100% fact that violence in America has dropped since the end of the assault weapons ban. Correlation
does not = causation, but it is reasonable to at least consider the possibility that when criminals think that their potential victims are armed, there is less crime.

I have been amazed at the liberal professors who study this issue who turn into 2nd Amendment supporters.

Do you have any evidence that one had anything to do with the other?

Speculation is not particularly helpful. Especially when the speculation comes from one who resists gun control.

It strikes me that a criminal would be no more deterred by an AR 15 than by a Colt .45 if he did not want to be deterred.

Chris
01-16-2013, 09:44 AM
Since that makes no sense, and you appear to love nonsense, let me introduce you to the finest nonsense (American republic aside) that has ever been invented.



GW Bush tried to match it.

But failed miserably.

Still learning to use new cell phone, what I meant to type was: You left out the part about supporting what peter said. You said there was no support for that. You were shown wrong...again.

Chris
01-16-2013, 10:33 AM
Do you have any evidence that one had anything to do with the other?

Speculation is not particularly helpful. Especially when the speculation comes from one who resists gun control.

It strikes me that a criminal would be no more deterred by an AR 15 than by a Colt .45 if he did not want to be deterred.

See, there you go again, you are told directly by peter that correlation does not equal causation, and you ask for evidence of causation as if that counters what peter said. If you're interested in causation, come up with your own evidence.

zelmo1234
01-16-2013, 06:29 PM
Do you have any evidence that one had anything to do with the other?

Speculation is not particularly helpful. Especially when the speculation comes from one who resists gun control.

It strikes me that a criminal would be no more deterred by an AR 15 than by a Colt .45 if he did not want to be deterred.

Well we can only assume that when we had the assualt weapons ban we had rising crime rates! Once it expired and the states atarted letting the law abiding citizens carry concealed, the crime rates atarted to drop.

With this the economy was improving as well and inflation was low, so yu have 4 things to consider.

but we can see the opposite is true as well some of the most dangerous places in America are New Yourk City, Chicago, and Washington DC and they would have had the same economy and low inflation, but they did have the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Yet there rates of violence, while still droping, did not decline as much as areas with less restrictive laws.

From the you are free to make your conclusions.

Awryly
01-16-2013, 07:00 PM
Well we can only assume that when we had the assualt weapons ban we had rising crime rates! Once it expired and the states atarted letting the law abiding citizens carry concealed, the crime rates atarted to drop.

With this the economy was improving as well and inflation was low, so yu have 4 things to consider.

but we can see the opposite is true as well some of the most dangerous places in America are New Yourk City, Chicago, and Washington DC and they would have had the same economy and low inflation, but they did have the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Yet there rates of violence, while still droping, did not decline as much as areas with less restrictive laws.

From the you are free to make your conclusions.

There have been 27 mass shootings since the assault weapon ban expired in 2004 according to this: http://www.policymic.com/mobile/articles/22262/since-the-assault-weapon-ban-expired-there-have-been-27-mass-shootings-in-the-u-s

The reason for any drop in the number of gun homicides will have had different origins. Such bans will help to reduce massacres perpetrated with such weapons and reduce the number of casualties. But on its own, it will have minimal effect on overall numbers.

Though this should appeal to you: fewer whites will get killed. Most massacres are of whites.

As I have said before, tight gun controls in New York have no effect when that state is surrounded by states with weak gun controls.

zelmo1234
01-16-2013, 08:35 PM
AW The problem is that we do nothing to get guns out of the hands of criminals. NY is surrounded by a lot of states that have very strict laws on guns.

here is an example. last summer I lost a 25 year old cousin to gun violece, he was exicuted, shot in the face with a .45 at about 8 inches by a drunk friend that thought he was being to friendly with his girlfriend, even though his wife was sitting next to him.

They refused to prosicute him for felony firearm so he got 2 years instead of five years on the gun charge, and becasue the courts did not want to bother, they plea bargined him down to 2nd degree and he gets 8 to 12 years, He will be out of jail with good behavior in 6 to 8 years, and he will come out with a collage degree if he is smart.

Now it is possible that this person made a mistake, but it is possible that he is dangerous as well. In this case the Grand Father and Great Uncle are very connected to the prison system, one is a Sheriff and the other retired FBI so it is highly likely that his stay might not be as pleasant as it could have been the song Prison Bitch comes to mind. but we have a system that is putting dangerous people back on the street to comit more and more crimes.

Florida has a law called 10 - 20- life. have a gun illegally ten years no parole, pull the gun out in the use of a crime 20 years no parole, and fire the weapon in the comitting of a crime life,, no parole.

Awryly
01-16-2013, 09:00 PM
AW The problem is that we do nothing to get guns out of the hands of criminals. NY is surrounded by a lot of states that have very strict laws on guns.

here is an example. last summer I lost a 25 year old cousin to gun violece, he was exicuted, shot in the face with a .45 at about 8 inches by a drunk friend that thought he was being to friendly with his girlfriend, even though his wife was sitting next to him.

They refused to prosicute him for felony firearm so he got 2 years instead of five years on the gun charge, and becasue the courts did not want to bother, they plea bargined him down to 2nd degree and he gets 8 to 12 years, He will be out of jail with good behavior in 6 to 8 years, and he will come out with a collage degree if he is smart.

Now it is possible that this person made a mistake, but it is possible that he is dangerous as well. In this case the Grand Father and Great Uncle are very connected to the prison system, one is a Sheriff and the other retired FBI so it is highly likely that his stay might not be as pleasant as it could have been the song Prison Bitch comes to mind. but we have a system that is putting dangerous people back on the street to comit more and more crimes.

Florida has a law called 10 - 20- life. have a gun illegally ten years no parole, pull the gun out in the use of a crime 20 years no parole, and fire the weapon in the comitting of a crime life,, no parole.

Learn to live with it. It's not going to go away.

You will live with a more and more acute siege mentality. So much for "freedom".

Mister D
01-16-2013, 09:03 PM
Though this should appeal to you: fewer whites will get killed. Most massacres are of whites.
.

Why would you say that, Awryly? You're the one who believes blacks are stupid, lazy, and have a criminal disposition.




And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

Awryly
01-16-2013, 09:14 PM
Why would you say that, Awryly? You're the one who believes blacks are stupid, lazy, and have a criminal disposition.


Really? Where did I say that? I reported the statistics on Maori failures.

They are statistics. Not my opinion. But, in what passes for your mind, much like your Fox News mentors, statistics exist only to be bent.

Awryly
01-17-2013, 01:15 AM
The reason for any drop in the number of gun homicides will have had different origins. Such bans will help to reduce massacres perpetrated with such weapons and reduce the number of casualties. But on its own, it will have minimal effect on overall numbers.



Academics are divided on whether more guns = fewer or more homicides. Gun homicides are certainly going down. But they are also going down in states which, for example, have no concealed carry permissions. And non-fatal shootings are going up.

Perhaps Americans are just becoming worse shots.

It seems to be generally agreed that more guns = more shootings. But because it is impossible to model a cause and effect relationship where a multitude of other factors exist, it is not possible to prove either way.

But I can't help comparing the US with NZ. We have high gun ownership, we have a highish level of drug use, we have a group of relatively poor people. (But our overall violent crime rate is much lower.)

Fact is, we don't shoot one another. I suspect a causal relationship between handguns (which are uncommon in NZ and other countries), the culture they breed, and gun homicides. They make violent dispute settlement easy.

zelmo1234
01-17-2013, 02:33 AM
If your goal is to institute sweaping gun reforms in a country that is seeing violent crime and even gun violence drop. You have to upset the status quo!

We have President obama telling a very upset Sarah Brady that they were working behind the scenes on gun control. And now with the shootings in CO and Newtown we have a public that wants things to be done.

Today the President introduce 23 excutive orders, which are much to do about nothing! And asked congress to adopt 4 neasures, of which None of them will even make it through the Democraticly Controled Senate.

WE have the Cities of Chicago, New York and Washington DC which are more dangerous than Afganistan, yet this goes largely un reported by the national media.

So one would assume that president Obama would be tough on crime and gun prosicution right?

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-admin-weak-on-gun-prosecutions-report-shows

Not only did this current administration fuel the fire of gun violence by making sure that drug running criminals got a nice infusion of over 2000 assualt weapons, but this administration has decided that prosicuting federal gun crimes in not a high priority.

Actual gun prosicutions are down 32% from those of former President Bush

One must ask if a President is willing to let crimes go un punished leaving americas most voilent offenders on the street, what could possible be the outcome other than more gun violence.

If you have a President that keeps finding dreams to chase instead of working on jobs and the economy, which 4 years in to his Presidency he has yet to really get serious about, what could be the outcome buy higher unemployment. This adds to the stress and crime rates, as well.

I thought that you all might find it interesting that our President that is so concerned abut the children that he is proposing tough and sweaping gun restrictions on law abiding citizens. Which even his own administration admits would have done nothing to stop the shootings in Colorado and Newtown. Is also the same President that is soft on gun violence and criminals that have already comitted crimes with firearms. T alogical person this makes little sense!

GrumpyDog
01-17-2013, 03:00 AM
The politician is not concerned with what effect his law making may have on the peasants, as the politician has already afforded himself exception to whatever laws will be passed.

In the case of the One, while his family is afforded security guards, Secret Service men, high tech surveilance, and security arrangements, the rest of society is expected to do without. Suggesting pragmatic ideas, such as more surveilance, and security measures at public places, and schools in particular, is said by MSNBC drones to be an absurd idea.

It is apparent that the One will have to be impeached, should he attempt to declare, by executive order, that the 2nd amendment can be infringed, at the stroke of his pen. I will be glad to participate, with anyone, who begins such a process, for it will serve notice to all future US Presidents, that the people will not lightly abandon the Bill of Rights, nor do they take lightly, violation of the Constitution.

I said the same for Bush, and for Clinton also, as they both violated the Constitution, the former with executive order to ban certain guns, and the latter, signing the Patriot Act.

Obama is Bush and Clinton combined, signing the 4th amendment nullification known as NDAA 2012, and now the threat to use executive order to infringe upon the 2nd amendment.

All this blame guns and gunowners campaign does, is raise even more suspicion and paranoia, and it is a distraction from what the most serious problem is, which is the National Debt of 16.4 Trillion, and what needs to be done to start reducing that debt.

Awryly
01-17-2013, 04:06 AM
If your goal is to institute sweaping gun reforms in a country that is seeing violent crime and even gun violence drop. You have to upset the status quo!

We have President obama telling a very upset Sarah Brady that they were working behind the scenes on gun control. And now with the shootings in CO and Newtown we have a public that wants things to be done.

Today the President introduce 23 excutive orders, which are much to do about nothing! And asked congress to adopt 4 neasures, of which None of them will even make it through the Democraticly Controled Senate.

WE have the Cities of Chicago, New York and Washington DC which are more dangerous than Afganistan, yet this goes largely un reported by the national media.

So one would assume that president Obama would be tough on crime and gun prosicution right?

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-admin-weak-on-gun-prosecutions-report-shows

Not only did this current administration fuel the fire of gun violence by making sure that drug running criminals got a nice infusion of over 2000 assualt weapons, but this administration has decided that prosicuting federal gun crimes in not a high priority.

Actual gun prosicutions are down 32% from those of former President Bush

One must ask if a President is willing to let crimes go un punished leaving americas most voilent offenders on the street, what could possible be the outcome other than more gun violence.

If you have a President that keeps finding dreams to chase instead of working on jobs and the economy, which 4 years in to his Presidency he has yet to really get serious about, what could be the outcome buy higher unemployment. This adds to the stress and crime rates, as well.

I thought that you all might find it interesting that our President that is so concerned abut the children that he is proposing tough and sweaping gun restrictions on law abiding citizens. Which even his own administration admits would have done nothing to stop the shootings in Colorado and Newtown. Is also the same President that is soft on gun violence and criminals that have already comitted crimes with firearms. T alogical person this makes little sense!

Typical conservative cherry-picking of the TRAC report. While gun prosecutions are down, you didn't notice that the ATF has increased its staff and raised the number of investigations of drug offences by 26%.

Or that while overall prosecutions are down by 7%, the prosecutions being undertaken are more complex and time-consuming.

Presumably there has been a policy shift that focuses on the probability that prosecuting drug offenders is likely to also uncover concomitant gun offences.

It is difficult to believe any conservative rendering of facts.

Chris
01-17-2013, 08:07 AM
Academics are divided on whether more guns = fewer or more homicides. Gun homicides are certainly going down. But they are also going down in states which, for example, have no concealed carry permissions. And non-fatal shootings are going up.

Perhaps Americans are just becoming worse shots.

It seems to be generally agreed that more guns = more shootings. But because it is impossible to model a cause and effect relationship where a multitude of other factors exist, it is not possible to prove either way.

But I can't help comparing the US with NZ. We have high gun ownership, we have a highish level of drug use, we have a group of relatively poor people. (But our overall violent crime rate is much lower.)

Fact is, we don't shoot one another. I suspect a causal relationship between handguns (which are uncommon in NZ and other countries), the culture they breed, and gun homicides. They make violent dispute settlement easy.


Academics are divided on whether more guns = fewer or more homicides.

OK. Then it is unknown and you can't very well argue from unknowns, that's illogical.


It seems to be generally agreed that more guns = more shootings.

But that doesn't stop you from arguing from ignorance and drawing illogical conclusions.


But because it is impossible to model a cause and effect relationship where a multitude of other factors exist, it is not possible to prove either way.

OK. Then it is unknown and you can't very well argue from unknowns, that's illogical.


I suspect a causal relationship between handguns (which are uncommon in NZ and other countries), the culture they breed, and gun homicides.

But that doesn't stop you from arguing from ignorance and drawing illogical conclusions.

Taxcutter
01-17-2013, 08:13 AM
Disarming the populace is a necessary condition for tyranny.

Chris
01-17-2013, 08:17 AM
"Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace... Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant."
~James Madison

Mister D
01-17-2013, 12:28 PM
Really? Where did I say that? I reported the statistics on Maori failures.

They are statistics. Not my opinion. But, in what passes for your mind, much like your Fox News mentors, statistics exist only to be bent.

You gave your opinion here:



And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.



http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511

Again, you're the one who thinks blacks are stupid, lazy, and have a criminal disposition. Why do you project your racism on others?

Awryly
01-17-2013, 08:18 PM
You gave your opinion here:



http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511

Again, you're the one who thinks blacks are stupid, lazy, and have a criminal disposition. Why do you project your racism on others?

I think if you reflect on the matter with a modicum of care and interest for the truth, you will find I said Maori "misuse" the opportunities they are given according to statistics I provided.

The savoury epithets "stupid", "lazy, and "criminal disposition" are yours.

Now, if you can concentrate your, admittedly, thoroughly warped mind for a second, you will find these are different things. One is a statement of fact based on facts; the others are the ravings of a lunatic ideologue.

Mister D
01-17-2013, 08:25 PM
I think if you reflect on the matter with a modicum of care and interest for the truth, you will find I said Maori "misuse" the opportunities they are given according to statistics I provided.

The savoury epithets "stupid", "lazy, and "criminal disposition" are yours.

Now, if you can concentrate your, admittedly, thoroughly warped mind for a second, you will find these are different things. One is a statement of fact based on facts; the others are the ravings of a lunatic ideologue.

Your refusal to take responsibility for your comments surprises no one. You're a coward as well as a buffoon. In any case, noddy, the issue is not the truth or falsehood of what you posted but your laughable hypocrisy. So much for that New Zealand education of yours. :smiley:

Mister D
01-17-2013, 08:27 PM
1260

Awryly
01-17-2013, 08:33 PM
Your refusal to take responsibility for your comments surprises no one. You're a coward as well as a buffoon. In any case, noddy, the issue is not the truth or falsehood of what you posted but your laughable hypocrisy. So much for that New Zealand education of yours. :smiley:

I see. You have neither the wit nor the intellect to recognise your own failings and admit that you have wilfully distorted the truth.

Yet again.

Mister D
01-17-2013, 08:41 PM
I see. You have neither the wit nor the intellect to recognise your own failings and admit that you have wilfully distorted the truth.

Yet again.

My supposed failings are immaterial. Your laughable hypocrisy is the issue.

You got mauled. Again. But I didn't send you away empty handed. I never do. You may redeem your bitch slap coupon at my convenience. I'm bored with you this evening, lil' bitch. :smiley:

Awryly
01-17-2013, 08:42 PM
Disarming the populace is a necessary condition for tyranny.

I would start with disarming people like you.

If you had a background check at all, I bet it was sloppily done.

Which provokes another thought you will not like.

All will be revealed. :cool2:

Chris
01-17-2013, 08:42 PM
And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

@ http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511

Awryly
01-18-2013, 11:12 AM
@ http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511

Which means what?

Apart from your undoubted ability to wander about in search of a point?

Chris
01-18-2013, 11:14 AM
Which means what?

Apart from your undoubted ability to wander about in search of a point?

Demonstrates your racism.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 11:24 AM
Sure does. His hypocrisy too.

Seriy
01-18-2013, 12:01 PM
America opened her Pandora box in 1960s XX century. The Left did slow step by step quiet socialist Marxist revolution. In 1970s we had still plenty of liberties, but today ?

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:12 PM
America opened her Pandora box in 1960s XX century. The Left did slow step by step quiet socialist Marxist revolution. In 1970s we had still plenty of liberties, but today ?

....is 19 January 2013.

In your country it is naturally 18 January. Though it might as well be 1813.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 09:15 PM
Seriy, pay no mind to Awryly. He has been bitch slapped so hard by his American betters that he is just lashing out now. :smiley:

zelmo1234
01-18-2013, 09:17 PM
....is 19 January 2013.

In your country it is naturally 18 January. Though it might as well be 1813.

Yes the 19th the day the many americans are going to the gun rang in protest of King Obama's power grab.

We have almost 60 brand new shooters coming tomorrow. And are looking for a great crowd, and many of the local stores are sold out of many caliber of ammunition!

Should be a really fun day!

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:19 PM
Demonstrates your racism.

How? Be inventive.

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:22 PM
Sure does. His hypocrisy too.

While Tweedledum struggles with the "racism" bit, you have a go at the "hypocrisy" bit.

GrumpyDog
01-18-2013, 09:24 PM
Yes the 19th the day the many americans are going to the gun rang in protest of King Obama's power grab.

We have almost 60 brand new shooters coming tomorrow. And are looking for a great crowd, and many of the local stores are sold out of many caliber of ammunition!

Should be a really fun day!

1268

Try not to let this situation result.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 09:25 PM
While Tweedledum struggles with the "racism" bit, you have a go at the "hypocrisy" bit.

You hang by your own silly comments. Making you look like a hypocrite (as well as a "racist") is an easy job. You do most of the work, lil' bitch. :wink:

Seriy
01-18-2013, 09:27 PM
No doubt, America's days as a superpower and as a nation of wealth are numbered.

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:33 PM
Yes the 19th the day the many americans are going to the gun rang in protest of King Obama's power grab.

We have almost 60 brand new shooters coming tomorrow. And are looking for a great crowd, and many of the local stores are sold out of many caliber of ammunition!

Should be a really fun day!

I look forward to hearing about the death toll.

Chris
01-18-2013, 09:35 PM
How? Be inventive.

No need to be inventive. You're a racist. Your words demonstrate it. Perhaps you're just unaware of it.

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:36 PM
You hang by your own silly comments. Making you look like a hypocrite (as well as a "racist") is an easy job. You do most of the work, lil' bitch. :wink:

'Fraid that would not stand up in court. Not even in one of your courts run by judge Jenny. Well....maybe.

So where are the facts, figures, analysis?

Or was that just too hard?

zelmo1234
01-18-2013, 09:37 PM
1268

Try not to let this situation result.

Yes that look a bit on the unsafe side to me. I stayed off my foot all day today so I can be on my feet tomorrow.

I am not worried about the event, but liberals have said they are going to try and cause trouble.

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:38 PM
No need to be inventive. You're a racist. Your words demonstrate it. Perhaps you're just unaware of it.

How do they "demonstrate it"?

Chris
01-18-2013, 09:40 PM
How do they "demonstrate it"?

Read them, awryly, they are your words. What, you need me to bump them back up?

GrumpyDog
01-18-2013, 09:46 PM
Yes that look a bit on the unsafe side to me. I stayed off my foot all day today so I can be on my feet tomorrow.

I am not worried about the event, but liberals have said they are going to try and cause trouble.

Well, get some of those fake guns, with the flag that pops out with BANG written on it, and some water pistols, and hand them out to the protestors.

Awryly
01-18-2013, 09:47 PM
Read them, awryly, they are your words. What, you need me to bump them back up?

They are words that dispassionately report figures from official sources.

Facts bothering you again?

GrumpyDog
01-18-2013, 10:00 PM
http://www.kevinmccorrytv.webs.com/foghorn5.jpg

Chris
01-18-2013, 10:03 PM
Here we go again for all to see, your racist remarks, awryly:


And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511

Awryly
01-18-2013, 10:07 PM
Here we go again for all to see, your racist remarks, awryly:



http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511


So you are saying it is racist to report the statistics, are you? Just as it is unAmerican to report background check statistics?

You have nothing to say, noddy. And even the nothing you have to say is wrong.

Back on total ignore.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 10:10 PM
'Fraid that would not stand up in court. Not even in one of your courts run by judge Jenny. Well....maybe.

So where are the facts, figures, analysis?

Or was that just too hard?

I bitch slap you here rather than in court, lil' bitch. My bitches don't have due process. :laugh:

Mister D
01-18-2013, 10:12 PM
Here are Awryly's racist remarks (again):



And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511



:smiley:

Awryly
01-18-2013, 10:19 PM
I see Tweedledee, who is also again on total ignore, is yet again bombarding the thread with plaintive appeals to yet more ignorance.

I would have thought Americans already have enough.

Chris
01-18-2013, 10:22 PM
So you are saying it is racist to report the statistics, are you? Just as it is unAmerican to report background check statistics?

You have nothing to say, noddy. And even the nothing you have to say is wrong.

Back on total ignore.

You don't just report statistics, awryly.

Here we go again for all to see, your racist remarks, awryly:


And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511


Total ignore! Oh, no. What a boor.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 10:35 PM
Oh no! The racist Kiwi has me ignore again! Geepers! What to do!?

I know. I'll just smack his silly ass down again when he dares venture out of his cave. :smiley:

Awryly
01-18-2013, 10:47 PM
That got the squirrels all of a flutter.

Mister D
01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
That got the squirrels all of a flutter.

Watch. He'll respond to this. :laugh:

Captain Obvious
01-18-2013, 10:49 PM
Oh no! The racist Kiwi has me ignore again! Geepers! What to do!?

I know. I'll just smack his silly ass down again when he dares venture out of his cave. :smiley:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_705OPwe6I5o/TFzSP52aytI/AAAAAAAAAJA/pEIGpsiPwCw/s1600/gollum.jpg

Awryly
01-18-2013, 10:52 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_705OPwe6I5o/TFzSP52aytI/AAAAAAAAAJA/pEIGpsiPwCw/s1600/gollum.jpg

Oh, here's another one. Also posting fiction.

Chris
01-18-2013, 11:55 PM
Oh, here's another one. Also posting fiction.

When you think everyone around you is the problem it's likely you're the problem.