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Cigar
01-14-2013, 02:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYNjYp8_z8&feature=player_embedded

"The Tea Party is more unpopular than ever before, according to a Rasmussen poll released Monday, with just three in 10 voters holding favorable views of the movement. Half of respondents said they view the party unfavorably.

Those numbers represent a considerable dive in support since the Tea Party's heyday in 2009, when a majority of voters rated it favorably."*

You'd think that the Tea Party was really influential, judging by how Washington acts. Well, the truth of how many people like the Tea Party and are in it has been released by Rasmussen. What's going on, and why is the group still powerful? Cenk Uygur breaks it down.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 03:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYNjYp8_z8&feature=player_embedded

"The Tea Party is more unpopular than ever before, according to a Rasmussen poll released Monday, with just three in 10 voters holding favorable views of the movement. Half of respondents said they view the party unfavorably.

Those numbers represent a considerable dive in support since the Tea Party's heyday in 2009, when a majority of voters rated it favorably."*

You'd think that the Tea Party was really influential, judging by how Washington acts. Well, the truth of how many people like the Tea Party and are in it has been released by Rasmussen. What's going on, and why is the group still powerful? Cenk Uygur breaks it down.

‎"Crisis Cults" like the Tea Party's magical thinking that it could take the country back to the 1950's, are in our future. We have done to it to ourselves and there is no way out. We have bought a one-way ticket to hell for us and the planet and we will all take a ride on the journey down.

Cigar
01-14-2013, 03:17 PM
‎"Crisis Cults" like the Tea Party's magical thinking that it could take the country back to the 1950's, are in our future. We have done to it to ourselves and there is no way out. We have bought a one-way ticket to hell for us and the planet and we will all take a ride on the journey down.

Hum ... so what Taxes were you paying in 1950 ?

GrassrootsConservative
01-14-2013, 03:21 PM
Occupationless Deadbeats only WISH they could get a 3/10 approval rating.

Chris
01-14-2013, 03:22 PM
‎"Crisis Cults" like the Tea Party's magical thinking that it could take the country back to the 1950's

Not what the tea parties are about. That's the straw man the media created. Why'd you buy into that?-

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 04:15 PM
Not what the tea parties are about. That's the straw man the media created. Why'd you buy into that?-

I don't watch the corporate ran media. They're a Crisis Cult. You believe what you want, but they are.

1241

Chris
01-14-2013, 04:20 PM
I don't watch the corporate ran media. They're a Crisis Cult. You believe what you want, but they are.

1241

What you said matches what the media said. More a matter of whether you believe what you want to believe or not.

GrassrootsConservative
01-14-2013, 04:34 PM
I don't watch the corporate ran media. They're a Crisis Cult. You believe what you want, but they are.

1241

So besides the Tea Party and the MSM, what else is a Crisis Cult?

Peter1469
01-14-2013, 05:26 PM
The American people want to spend more and more; print more and more. I suspect that they don't want to crash the economy. But that is what will happen.

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 06:02 PM
So besides the Tea Party and the MSM, what else is a Crisis Cult?

Occupy was. Then you have your manufactured Crisis Cults - gun hawks, abortion zealots for and against....................

Chris
01-14-2013, 07:31 PM
In the interest of understandling slam's lumping label, The American Left as "crisis cult" (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2006/07/the_american_left_as_crisis_cu.html):


Clinical psychologist Robert Godwin proposes an interesting framework for understanding the increasingly bizarre behavior of the American Left at his very interesting website One Cosmos. Drawing on the work of psychoanalytic anthropologist Weston LaBarre, he posits that the left has become a "crisis cult" such as are found in societies whose bedrock assumptions break down in the face of the superior strength of foreign cultures impinging on their territory.

Probably the most famous of the crisis cults are the cargo cults which developed in Melanesia....

The crisis cult LaBarre wrote most about were the Ghost Dancers among Native Americans in the 19th century....

Godwin explains:

...progressives are having to cope with a catastrophic collapse of their world and all of its comforting myths. As each myth crumbles in succession, they become increasingly frantic in papering over reality with the downright strange beliefs of their progressive crisis cult.

Thus come delusional assertions: Bush is an idiot despite degrees from Yale and Harvard....

I think it is almost unquestionable that the Left's belief systems have proven incongruent with the real world. Communism didn't work and only survives as a pretext for despotism in North Korea and China. Welfare is a trap, and poor people's lot in America has improved since access to it was term—limited. Higher taxes on "the rich" depress economic growth and throw people out of work. The list could go on.

With their gods having failed them, leftists have turned to cant, ritual, and hysterical repetition of their golden oldie playlist of slogans. And most of all, to demoinization [sic] of their opponents. It is fairly primitive, and often comic, with tinges of tragedy....

Or mischaracterizing the tea parties as a Party even let alone wanting to "take the country back to the 1950's".

Uncle Slam
01-14-2013, 07:34 PM
In the interest of understandling slam's lumping label, The American Left as "crisis cult" (http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2006/07/the_american_left_as_crisis_cu.html):




Or mischaracterizing the tea parties as a Party even let alone wanting to "take the country back to the 1950's".

Technically, that's right, since the Tea Party was absorbed into the Republican Cult. Occupy made the mistake of not joining the Democrat Cult, therefore died an inevitable death.

Peter1469
01-14-2013, 07:41 PM
The Tea Party(ies) are not absorbed into the GOP. They are active, just silent. For now.

Chris
01-14-2013, 07:47 PM
And the tea parties are not part of the Republican Party, they have been largely anti-Republican establishment.

Slam, where are you getting your BS if not mainstream media, people who repeat mainstream media memes?

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 06:20 AM
And the tea parties are not part of the Republican Party, they have been largely anti-Republican establishment.

Slam, where are you getting your BS if not mainstream media, people who repeat mainstream media memes?


Oh, they're not? Doesn't the name Grover Norquist ring a bell? Look here self-proclaime knower of all, I don't watch the mainstream media, so don't get it fucked up! You know, I know, everyone knows the Tea Party is simply a wing of the Republican Party. Who signed Grover's no tax contract? Better yet, so me a list of congressmen where it says "Tea Party" instead of Republican or Democrat behind their name.

Chris
01-15-2013, 07:09 AM
Oh, they're not? Doesn't the name Grover Norquist ring a bell? Look here self-proclaime knower of all, I don't watch the mainstream media, so don't get it fucked up! You know, I know, everyone knows the Tea Party is simply a wing of the Republican Party. Who signed Grover's no tax contract? Better yet, so me a list of congressmen where it says "Tea Party" instead of Republican or Democrat behind their name.

Another mass media misconception of the tea parties, that they have leaders. You may not listen directly, but you repeat it.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 07:21 AM
Another mass media misconception of the tea parties, that they have leaders. You may not listen directly, but you repeat it.

They do, and you know that, regardless of what FAUX News tells you.

Chris
01-15-2013, 07:27 AM
They do, and you know that, regardless of what FAUX News tells you.

I belong to the local tea party, even it is leaderless, grassroots.

So far you've managed to repeat several of mass media's misconceptions, I predict more will follow.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 07:31 AM
I belong to the local tea party, even it is leaderless, grassroots.

So far you've managed to repeat several of mass media's misconceptions, I predict more will follow.

You would.

Chris
01-15-2013, 07:34 AM
Hopefully I'm wrong, having heard what you say repeated since Ron Paul's Boston TeaParty 07, it gets rather tiresome.

Calypso Jones
01-15-2013, 07:37 AM
teaparty isn't dead. One of the main indicators of this is the constant attacks by the media.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 07:50 AM
Hopefully I'm wrong, having heard what you say repeated since Ron Paul's Boston TeaParty 07, it gets rather tiresome.

That give you all a thrill, carrying a banner for a "cause?" Only banner I carry is for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Otherwise you're being used. You'll see.

Nemo
01-15-2013, 08:07 AM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared...."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
. . .

The"Tea Party" activists are simpletons: they are always bringing up the "founding fathers" and the Constitution - as if any of them ever read the Constitution, much less understand its provisions for the foundation of our government. "We want our country back!" they cry. It’s laughable. They are like the evangelical Christians that misquote the gospels and ask, insipidly: "What would Jesus do?" They are stooges and shills for those who would use them to their own cross-purposes - those who would undermine the very foundations of our democratic institutions. (There are some that believe they have the right to take up arms against their lawfully constituted government!) They are not patriots, they are not loyal citizens, and those behind them are subversives.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 08:11 AM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared...."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
. . .

The"Tea Party" activists are simpletons: they are always bringing up the "founding fathers" and the Constitution - as if any of them ever read the Constitution, much less understand its provisions for the foundation of our government. "We want our country back!" they cry. It’s laughable. They are like the evangelical Christians that misquote the gospels and ask, insipidly: "What would Jesus do?" They are stooges and shills for those who would use them to their own cross-purposes - those who would undermine the very foundations of our democratic institutions. (There are some that believe they have the right to take up arms against their lawfully constituted government!) They are not patriots, they are not loyal citizens, and those behind them are subversives.

Ha! THAT will fall on deaf ears, albeit you're right. Some people just "need" to be in a "gang" and don't know or care if they're being used - fills some kind of void in their lives.

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:23 AM
That give you all a thrill, carrying a banner for a "cause?" Only banner I carry is for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Otherwise you're being used. You'll see.

Too bad you don't also carry the banner of liberty.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 08:26 AM
Too bad you don't also carry the banner of liberty.

So you gotta be in the Tea Party to love liberty? To be a patriot? Jesus!

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:33 AM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared...."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
. . .

The"Tea Party" activists are simpletons: they are always bringing up the "founding fathers" and the Constitution - as if any of them ever read the Constitution, much less understand its provisions for the foundation of our government. "We want our country back!" they cry. It’s laughable. They are like the evangelical Christians that misquote the gospels and ask, insipidly: "What would Jesus do?" They are stooges and shills for those who would use them to their own cross-purposes - those who would undermine the very foundations of our democratic institutions. (There are some that believe they have the right to take up arms against their lawfully constituted government!) They are not patriots, they are not loyal citizens, and those behind them are subversives.

Nice bit of ad hom, nemo.

If you actually knew Cicero you'd know he stood for reason above all else: "Wise men are instructed by reason; men of less understanding, by experience; the most ignorant, by necessity; the beasts, by nature."

He would disagree with your name calling.


The tea parties stand for liberty--less taxes, smaller government, more liberty. Do you know whom Goldwater was referencing when he said "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"?

Hint, you unwittingly quoted him.

Chris
01-15-2013, 08:34 AM
So you gotta be in the Tea Party to love liberty? To be a patriot? Jesus!

So you have to mischaracterize my words just as you mischaracterize the tea parties?

Nemo
01-15-2013, 09:09 AM
Nice bit of ad hom, nemo.

If you actually knew Cicero you'd know he stood for reason above all else: "Wise men are instructed by reason; men of less understanding, by experience; the most ignorant, by necessity; the beasts, by nature."

He would disagree with your name calling.


The tea parties stand for liberty--less taxes, smaller government, more liberty. Do you know whom Goldwater was referencing when he said "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"?

Hint, you unwittingly quoted him.

"Ad hom", Chris? The world is too much with us! Indeed, there is a lack of civility of late. On the subject of politics, in particular, people have become so polemic and so partisan that there is no place for argument anymore. The opposing party has become "the enemy." One cannot even agree to disagree for there is no tolerance for opposing views. It is a sad state of affairs when people can no longer even talk to each other without coming to blows.

But then this is nothing new in the history of politics. One of Octavian’s first acts as Triumvir was to add his friend, and mentor, Cicero to the proscription lists to appease Antony, who had Cicero’s head and hands mounted on the Senate Rostra in the Forum Romanum. (A high price to pay for his Philippics!) And, in our own history, Alexander Hamilton might have lived to be President had he been more civil in his dealings with Aaron Burr.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 09:10 AM
So you have to mischaracterize my words just as you mischaracterize the tea parties?

Look, I spend well over a decade of my own time and money reenacting the Civil War to help raise millions toward battlefield preservation. I've studied our history formally and on my own for well over 30 years, written articles about our history, and shit I can't even remember to advance the knowledge and appreciation of our history, so don't talk to me about liberty. Never once did I come across where someone said you gotta be in the goddamned Tea Party to be a lover of liberty or anything else. Stuff your Tea Party and it's self-serving interest.

Chris
01-15-2013, 09:14 AM
Look, I spend well over a decade of my own time and money reenacting the Civil War to help raise millions toward battlefield preservation. I've studied our history formally and on my own for well over 30 years, written articles about our history, and shit I can't even remember to advance the knowledge and appreciation of our history, so don't talk to me about liberty. Never once did I come across where someone said you gotta be in the goddamned Tea Party to be a lover of liberty or anything else. Stuff your Tea Party and it's self-serving interest.

Where have you run into someone who said you have to be a member of tea parties to love liberty--I mean other than your straw man that I said it, it was your straw man, not mine. Stuff your stuff it.

Nemo
01-15-2013, 09:31 AM
Here is the man - second in line to be President - addressing a rally of Tea Party simpletons on the subject of the Constitution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhrgpL0oIvE

nic34
01-15-2013, 10:23 AM
The tea parties stand for liberty--less taxes, smaller government, more liberty.

For Goldman Sachs maybe....

The whole point of the tea party is to focus concern over our stagnant economy on something called “big government” while ignoring the big corporations that have bought the government as an accessory to their marketing strategies.

Big government is big precisely because it now exists primarily to make the world safe for multinational capitalism, whether through a bloated defense budget, trade pacts like the North American Free Trade Agreement, or monetary policies that serve the interests of the largest companies.

And before you lambast me for not being all equal, dems are guilty of saving the banksters too. Just not AS guilty....

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 10:53 AM
For Goldman Sachs maybe....

The whole point of the tea party is to focus concern over our stagnant economy on something called “big government” while ignoring the big corporations that have bought the government as an accessory to their marketing strategies.

Big government is big precisely because it now exists primarily to make the world safe for multinational capitalism, whether through a bloated defense budget, trade pacts like the North American Free Trade Agreement, or monetary policies that serve the interests of the largest companies.

And before you lambast me for not being all equal, dems are guilty of saving the banksters too. Just not AS guilty....

That's damned right - "Liberty" for the chosen few, and these clowns buy into it hook, line and sinker.

Oh, and here's your "leaderless" Tea Party void of leadership - (yea, right)

http://www.nationwidechicagoteaparty.com/about.php

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:04 PM
For Goldman Sachs maybe....

The whole point of the tea party is to focus concern over our stagnant economy on something called “big government” while ignoring the big corporations that have bought the government as an accessory to their marketing strategies.

Big government is big precisely because it now exists primarily to make the world safe for multinational capitalism, whether through a bloated defense budget, trade pacts like the North American Free Trade Agreement, or monetary policies that serve the interests of the largest companies.

And before you lambast me for not being all equal, dems are guilty of saving the banksters too. Just not AS guilty....

Again, a common mass media informed opinion.

The focus is one big government over big business because government's the one with the power to allow big business to buy them out. This sort of crony capitalism needs to be stopped by regulating government.

It is interesting that OWS took the opposite approach initially, blaming big business and demanding big government stop it. But when government came crashing down around their heads they realize big government was in bed with big business, and started protesting some of the same things the tea parties do.


Big government is big precisely because it now exists primarily to make the world safe for multinational capitalism, whether through a bloated defense budget, trade pacts like the North American Free Trade Agreement, or monetary policies that serve the interests of the largest companies.

Agree, other than I see it as more than a gain for big business which gets wealthier for it, it's a gain for big government which gets more powerful. They both get bigger under corporatism (what Mussolini called fascism).


And before you lambast me for not being all equal, dems are guilty of saving the banksters too. Just not AS guilty....

Unlike some around here I don't lambast messengers, I try to stick to messages. But I won't lambast what I agree with entirely, the Reps and the Dems are equally guilty of corny capitalism (corporatism (fascism)).

While we're on the subject of parties, it should be noted that the target of the tea parties was Republicans, not Democrats.


I don't intend to insult you when I say you'd make a fine tea partier!

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:15 PM
That's damned right - "Liberty" for the chosen few, and these clowns buy into it hook, line and sinker.

Oh, and here's your "leaderless" Tea Party void of leadership - (yea, right)

http://www.nationwidechicagoteaparty.com/about.php

The tea parties stand for liberty for all.



Slam, I can find politicians all day long who claim to be tea party leaders, like that idiot Bachmann, but they lead nothing but their own selfish power-hungry interests.

Also, the site you found is that of not a tea parties leader but a coalition of various tea parties, of which there are many, who disseminate information and provide assistance organizing at the community level. Here is what they say on their home page:


What is the Tea Party Movement Ecosystem?

It's a term that is descriptive of how the Tea Party Movement actually works. The Tea Party Movement Ecosystem is a collection of individuals and self-organizing groups all united in accomplishing a single goal: returning fiscal responsibility and limited government to the United States through the exercise of political activism. It consists of the 1 million plus individuals who attended the 900 tea parties held across the country on April 15, and the millions more who believe in the noble cause of saving our republic from socialism today. Each individual and group within this ecosystem determines where they want to place their focus, and works independently to accomplish their own unique goals, but communicates and collaborates with every other individual and group within the ecosystem, so that we are all moving the ball forward to achieve the objective that unites us all -- returning fiscal responsibility to all levels of government in the United States.

In short, you've just provided evidence against your claim. Thank you.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Again, a common mass media informed opinion.

The focus is one big government over big business because government's the one with the power to allow big business to buy them out. This sort of crony capitalism needs to be stopped by regulating government.

It is interesting that OWS took the opposite approach initially, blaming big business and demanding big government stop it. But when government came crashing down around their heads they realize big government was in bed with big business, and started protesting some of the same things the tea parties do.



Agree, other than I see it as more than a gain for big business which gets wealthier for it, it's a gain for big government which gets more powerful. They both get bigger under corporatism (what Mussolini called fascism).



Unlike some around here I don't lambast messengers, I try to stick to messages. But I won't lambast what I agree with entirely, the Reps and the Dems are equally guilty of corny capitalism (corporatism (fascism)).

While we're on the subject of parties, it should be noted that the target of the tea parties was Republicans, not Democrats.


I don't intend to insult you when I say you'd make a fine tea partier!

"common mass media informed opinion" haha, well, I'll say this - when someone gives you gang joiners a matra to repeat, you certainly carry out the marching orders.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 01:17 PM
The tea parties stand for liberty for all.



Slam, I can find politicians all day long who claim to be tea party leaders, like that idiot Bachmann, but they lead nothing but their own selfish power-hungry interests.

Also, the site you found is that of not a tea parties leader but a coalition of various tea parties, of which there are many, who disseminate information and provide assistance organizing at the community level. Here is what they say on their home page:



In short, you've just provided evidence against your claim. Thank you.

THAT'S horse shit. I served you your "leaderless" list of leaders. It's OK to be wrong.

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:21 PM
"common mass media informed opinion" haha, well, I'll say this - when someone gives you gang joiners a matra to repeat, you certainly carry out the marching orders.

Nic's initial words were common to mass media. The rest of it rang true and not from the media.

I see you've got nothing but the white flag of ad hom left to argue with.

Nemo
01-15-2013, 01:21 PM
"Ad hom", Chris? The world is too much with us! Indeed, there is a lack of civility of late. On the subject of politics, in particular, people have become so polemic and so partisan that there is no place for argument anymore. The opposing party has become "the enemy." One cannot even agree to disagree for there is no tolerance for opposing views. It is a sad state of affairs when people can no longer even talk to each other without coming to blows.

But then this is nothing new in the history of politics. One of Octavian’s first acts as Triumvir was to add his friend, and mentor, Cicero to the proscription lists to appease Antony, who had Cicero’s head and hands mounted on the Senate Rostra in the Forum Romanum. (A high price to pay for his Philippics!) And, in our own history, Alexander Hamilton might have lived to be President had he been more civil in his dealings with Aaron Burr.

Cassius. Did Cicero say any thing?

Casca. Ay, he spoke Greek.

Cassius. To what effect?

Casca. Nay, an I tell you that, I’ll ne’er i’ the
face again: but those that understood him smiled at
one another and shook their heads; but for mine own
part, it was Greek to me. . . .

- William Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar, Act I, Scene 2, Lines 371-377

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 01:23 PM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared...."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
. . .

The"Tea Party" activists are simpletons: they are always bringing up the "founding fathers" and the Constitution - as if any of them ever read the Constitution, much less understand its provisions for the foundation of our government. "We want our country back!" they cry. It’s laughable. They are like the evangelical Christians that misquote the gospels and ask, insipidly: "What would Jesus do?" They are stooges and shills for those who would use them to their own cross-purposes - those who would undermine the very foundations of our democratic institutions. (There are some that believe they have the right to take up arms against their lawfully constituted government!) They are not patriots, they are not loyal citizens, and those behind them are subversives.

I could not agree more that there are those that do not give a crap about the constitution, and also that the treason from within is much more dangerouos that any enemy that we have ever faced!

Here is an example that is to take place tomorrow!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/01/15/gun-violence-biden-executive-action/1835957/

Now those excutive orders are treason if I ever saw it

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:24 PM
THAT'S horse shit. I served you your "leaderless" list of leaders. It's OK to be wrong.

Glad you're OK with being wrong. You served me up evidence of it: "Each individual and group within this ecosystem determines where they want to place their focus, and works independently to accomplish their own unique goals".

Ever read Brafman & Beckstrom's The Starfish and the Spider: The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations? The tea parties and OWS are starfish to the spider Reps and Dems.

BTW, my prediction still holds, you will trot out yet another mass media piece of nonsense about the tea parties. --Yes, of course I could be wring.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 01:34 PM
Glad you're OK with being wrong. You served me up evidence of it: "Each individual and group within this ecosystem determines where they want to place their focus, and works independently to accomplish their own unique goals".

Ever read Brafman & Beckstrom's The Starfish and the Spider: The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations? The tea parties and OWS are starfish to the spider Reps and Dems.

BTW, my prediction still holds, you will trot out yet another mass media piece of nonsense about the tea parties. --Yes, of course I could be wring.

"you will trot out yet another mass media piece of nonsense about the tea parties." Dude, you're flawless! Haven't missed this in one post if I'm counting right (or care enough to count right). Did you guys have to repeat "Mass Media" 100 times to gain admittance?

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:35 PM
"Ad hom", Chris? The world is too much with us! Indeed, there is a lack of civility of late. On the subject of politics, in particular, people have become so polemic and so partisan that there is no place for argument anymore. The opposing party has become "the enemy." One cannot even agree to disagree for there is no tolerance for opposing views. It is a sad state of affairs when people can no longer even talk to each other without coming to blows.

But then this is nothing new in the history of politics. One of Octavian’s first acts as Triumvir was to add his friend, and mentor, Cicero to the proscription lists to appease Antony, who had Cicero’s head and hands mounted on the Senate Rostra in the Forum Romanum. (A high price to pay for his Philippics!) And, in our own history, Alexander Hamilton might have lived to be President had he been more civil in his dealings with Aaron Burr.

Yes, nemo, all you did was call names.


Indeed, there is a lack of civility of late.

Agreed, and you with your post #23 proved it. Of course I could have also pointed out your self-contradiction in the vituperative post: You say tea parties stand for the Constitution and then contradict yourself saying they was to subvert it. --And, btw, we are not a democracy.

I prefer what Goldwater had to say: "To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable."

While we're talking about Cicero, I tried to get a discussion going in Rome's Last Citizen: The Life and Legacy of Cato, Mortal Enemy of Caesar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8873-Rome-s-Last-Citizen-The-Life-and-Legacy-of-Cato-Mortal-Enemy-of-Caesar). The authors, Goodman and Soni gave a talk at the Cato Institute recently.



(Slam, thanks for reminding me I hadn't responded to Nemo yet!)

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 01:37 PM
Yes, nemo, all you did was call names.



Agreed, and you with your post #23 proved it. Of course I could have also pointed out your self-contradiction in the vituperative post: You say tea parties stand for the Constitution and then contradict yourself saying they was to subvert it. --And, btw, we are not a democracy.

I prefer what Goldwater had to say: "To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable."

While we're talking about Cicero, I tried to get a discussion going in Rome's Last Citizen: The Life and Legacy of Cato, Mortal Enemy of Caesar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8873-Rome-s-Last-Citizen-The-Life-and-Legacy-of-Cato-Mortal-Enemy-of-Caesar). The authors, Goodman and Soni gave a talk at the Cato Institute recently.



(Slam, thanks for reminding me I hadn't responded to Nemo yet!)


Try responding again - you left out the standard playbook reference to "mass media" - tisk tisk! What would Grover say?

Chris
01-15-2013, 01:42 PM
Slam, unknot your knickers.

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 01:46 PM
Slam, unknot your knickers.

Can't, I heard it in the "mass media" for godssake!

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 01:55 PM
THAT'S horse shit. I served you your "leaderless" list of leaders. It's OK to be wrong.

A list of over 97 leaders?

So you are full of accusations, how about some solutions! What are we to do? WE have a choice between bad and worse, I will agree with that!

But we are forced to pick between the lesser of 2 evils on a national level. Change wil come on the local level in primaries by electing those that represent your ideas the best.

So again what is your solution more government, less government or just bitching?

I beleive a very, very simple tax code that is the same for people, business and corporatins that only allows for charitable donations for deductions.

This will stop companies that make billions, like GE that our current President

This give you incite into your real revenue.

then you make a law to reduce the deficite by 33% each and every year, which will not be a 33% reduction in spending because revenue goes up every year. within 5 years you will be back in surplus or very very small deficites

Then you can tackle the means testing for the entitlments. and after taht you are no paying the debt down substancially

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 02:01 PM
Can't, I heard it in the "mass media" for godssake!

They have some pretty good points. maybe you need a little more back up. It looks like they are using your posts against you

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 04:13 PM
They have some pretty good points. maybe you need a little more back up. It looks like they are using your posts against you

I care because.................

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 04:14 PM
A list of over 97 leaders?

So you are full of accusations, how about some solutions! What are we to do? WE have a choice between bad and worse, I will agree with that!

But we are forced to pick between the lesser of 2 evils on a national level. Change wil come on the local level in primaries by electing those that represent your ideas the best.

So again what is your solution more government, less government or just bitching?

I beleive a very, very simple tax code that is the same for people, business and corporatins that only allows for charitable donations for deductions.

This will stop companies that make billions, like GE that our current President

This give you incite into your real revenue.

then you make a law to reduce the deficite by 33% each and every year, which will not be a 33% reduction in spending because revenue goes up every year. within 5 years you will be back in surplus or very very small deficites

Then you can tackle the means testing for the entitlments. and after taht you are no paying the debt down substancially

It's all more simple than that. Just get rid of the "mass media!"

Chris
01-15-2013, 04:44 PM
I care because.................

Because you post. Simple discourse ethics.

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 05:44 PM
I care because.................

You might want to be a useful contributer, and get people to think about your point of view?

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 06:15 PM
You might want to be a useful contributer, and get people to think about your point of view?

You know, I try, really. I've spend years on other forums that either folded up, got boring, etc. I'm jaded, sarcastic, cynical, pessimistic, and mean to everyone eventually, especially myself. Once I got through my think skull that no one really took my views seriously, I became a smartass. Thought I'd try to have a "renaissance" here, but it doesn't seem to be working. I've ran for public office, been in public service for around 30 years, studied social studies and history through graduate school and beyond, coached, raised 4 kids, travel, spoke in public many times, and written articles. I reenacted the Civil War and read history and politics and government incessantly. I've known state and federal level politicians over the decades. I converse with well known and Pulitzer Prize winning authors like Jeffrey Sharra and Joseph Wambaugh, actors, legendary musicians, and have many interests. All that's nothing special other than the result of over-active interests and over-active curiosity. So yea, you'd think I'd be on here posting polemics and stances, salient points and well-reasoned arguments.

Yet I resort to being a smart ass. Maybe I'm just getting bored. BUT, I'm working on learning a cool piece on electric guitar, and that at the moment interest me more than this forum.

Have fun!

Rockefeller Republican
01-15-2013, 07:16 PM
This is good news. Hopefully the party can go back to being the party of Reagan instead of a batshit insane party.

Peter1469
01-15-2013, 07:18 PM
Welcome RR!

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 07:25 PM
This is good news. Hopefully the party can go back to being the party of Reagan instead of a batshit insane party.

I prefer the party of Eisenhower, but I'm afraid we're a little too far gone for that.

zelmo1234
01-15-2013, 07:25 PM
Look at your Resume! YOu are not only someone that could very well contribute, but you could actually make a difference.

Look what we ahve to deal with here on this and all forums. Those on the far right, tend to slam people with names and smears.

Those on the far left use hit and run tactis and change the subject each and everytime they are put into a corner. The you have cary and AW that just hate the country, and are only here to try and upset people.

I try not to wallow in the mud too often but my background is Security will not let me see people abused. I try to make my decissions on facts and figures it is the business person in me, and I also get upset when I see people talking about people that don't pay their fare share.

When I see what these new programs are going to do to small business it makes me want to weep! there are so many people that we could hire and give jobs to and help them have a better life and that money is gone. To provide a healthcare system that will cost my employees their insurance, and make care worse and more expensive. I look for people to give me the other side of the coin to consider, but it is never supported with facts, so I am forced to assume that they can't support it.

I hope that you stay and turn me toward link and site that I do not know exist so I can see the light at the end of the tunnel because right now we are suspending all US opperations with the excepting of maintenence of current properties and the purchase of for closures.

I just can't find any profits in our new constructions and developments. And while it may sound cold as hell, if it is not profitable it is a drain on the business and make the business weak and then you are only one step away from being out of business.

So with you background I know that you have good ideas and can show me things that I do not know, so teach me why the conservative paln will not work? or why the liberal plan will or won't work, or better yet, the middle ground that will bring this country out of this funk!

Uncle Slam
01-15-2013, 07:34 PM
Look at your Resume! YOu are not only someone that could very well contribute, but you could actually make a difference.

Look what we ahve to deal with here on this and all forums. Those on the far right, tend to slam people with names and smears.

Those on the far left use hit and run tactis and change the subject each and everytime they are put into a corner. The you have cary and AW that just hate the country, and are only here to try and upset people.

I try not to wallow in the mud too often but my background is Security will not let me see people abused. I try to make my decissions on facts and figures it is the business person in me, and I also get upset when I see people talking about people that don't pay their fare share.

When I see what these new programs are going to do to small business it makes me want to weep! there are so many people that we could hire and give jobs to and help them have a better life and that money is gone. To provide a healthcare system that will cost my employees their insurance, and make care worse and more expensive. I look for people to give me the other side of the coin to consider, but it is never supported with facts, so I am forced to assume that they can't support it.

I hope that you stay and turn me toward link and site that I do not know exist so I can see the light at the end of the tunnel because right now we are suspending all US opperations with the excepting of maintenence of current properties and the purchase of for closures.

I just can't find any profits in our new constructions and developments. And while it may sound cold as hell, if it is not profitable it is a drain on the business and make the business weak and then you are only one step away from being out of business.

So with you background I know that you have good ideas and can show me things that I do not know, so teach me why the conservative paln will not work? or why the liberal plan will or won't work, or better yet, the middle ground that will bring this country out of this funk!

I try real hard elmo, but seem to have been overcome with hyper-cynicism toward all things government. They're so fucking bought and sold - and our citizenry is so intellectually lazy, I'm kind of short on hope. Christ, I don't even have a stake in any of that shit anymore anyway. Maybe it's better to just lay down and take it. Tired of fighting. Not looking for pity or self-pity, but after all these years of watching our people fall for lies and fantasies, and not willing to take meaningful action, what's the point?

Calypso Jones
01-18-2013, 09:14 AM
"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared...."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
. . .

The"Tea Party" activists are simpletons: they are always bringing up the "founding fathers" and the Constitution - as if any of them ever read the Constitution, much less understand its provisions for the foundation of our government. "We want our country back!" they cry. It’s laughable. They are like the evangelical Christians that misquote the gospels and ask, insipidly: "What would Jesus do?" They are stooges and shills for those who would use them to their own cross-purposes - those who would undermine the very foundations of our democratic institutions. (There are some that believe they have the right to take up arms against their lawfully constituted government!) They are not patriots, they are not loyal citizens, and those behind them are subversives.

that quote is about the democrats and obama.

nic34
01-18-2013, 09:23 AM
This is good news. Hopefully the party can go back to being the party of Reagan instead of a batshit insane party.

Boy, howdy.

Chris
01-18-2013, 09:33 AM
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
~James Madison

nic34
01-18-2013, 11:52 AM
Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated lands, owes to the community ground-rent (for I know of no better term to express the idea) for the land which he holds; and it is from this ground-rent that the fund prod in this plan is to issue.
The property owners owe rent to those who do not own property for the privilege of cultivating the land, and taking away the natural ownership that all people have.

There could be no such thing as landed property originally. Man did not make the earth, and, though he had a natural right to occupy it, he had no right to locate as his property in perpetuity any part of it; neither did the Creator of the earth open a land-office, from whence the first title-deeds should issue.

~Paine directly challenges the justification for pure private property with no community responsibilities

Chris
01-18-2013, 11:59 AM
Paine's argument there was against landed property of feudalism.

"I consider the war of America against Britain as the country's war, the public's war, or the war of the people in their own behalf, for the security of their natural rights, and the protection of their own property."
~Thomas Paine, On Financing the War, 1782

zelmo1234
01-18-2013, 12:03 PM
Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated lands, owes to the community ground-rent (for I know of no better term to express the idea) for the land which he holds; and it is from this ground-rent that the fund prod in this plan is to issue.
The property owners owe rent to those who do not own property for the privilege of cultivating the land, and taking away the natural ownership that all people have.

There could be no such thing as landed property originally. Man did not make the earth, and, though he had a natural right to occupy it, he had no right to locate as his property in perpetuity any part of it; neither did the Creator of the earth open a land-office, from whence the first title-deeds should issue.

~Paine directly challenges the justification for pure private property with no community responsibilities

It would also be impossibe for the government to own the land as well.

So now because you do not own your land, and I do not own it, I might want to use your hose for a party! from time to time?

nic34
01-18-2013, 12:54 PM
In Agrarian Justice (1797), he denounced concentrations of wealth, especially in the form of landed property, and prescribed a cure:

To create a national fund, out of which there shall be paid to every person, when arrived at the age of twenty-one years, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property:

And also, the sum of ten pounds per annum, during life, to every person now living, of the age of fifty years, and to all others as they shall arrive at that age.

In other words, a nest egg for every citizen when she reaches adulthood and a pension beginning at age 50. Note that unlike Social Security benefits, for which you become eligible only by earning a reportable wage or salary, Paine’s pension wasn’t tied to employment. You would receive it because you were a human being who deserved not to starve to death.

Chris
01-18-2013, 01:42 PM
Fortunately the Founders adopted Lockean natural rights derived from natural law--what the open of the Declaration is all about. Paine, while his Rights of Man was inspiring to the American Revolution, it was even more inspiring to the bloody, leveling French Revolution.

In order to make all men equal before men, you must treat them unequally before the law.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 01:45 PM
No. The "Framers" of the Constitution rejected Locke - and Jefferson - for a Constitutional Republic.

Get your history straight.

Chris
01-18-2013, 01:47 PM
No. The "Framers" of the Constitution rejected Locke - and Jefferson - for a Constitutional Republic.

Get your history straight.

I understand you find it convenient to dismiss and deny it, but the Constitution repeats the Declaration from Preamble to Bill of Rights.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 01:51 PM
The Constitution does not repeat anything in the Declaration of Independence. (Certainly nothting by John Locke or Thomas Jefferson.) The words "inherent rights" and "unalienable rights" appear nowhere in the Constitution. Get that straight, and stop spreading lies about the Constitution.

Chris
01-18-2013, 02:21 PM
The Constitution does not repeat anything in the Declaration of Independence. (Certainly nothting by John Locke or Thomas Jefferson.) The words "inherent rights" and "unalienable rights" appear nowhere in the Constitution. Get that straight, and stop spreading lies about the Constitution.

It repeats the same ideas, nemo, we've been through this before and you have no argument.

Declaration:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Constitution:


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Not only the notion of natural rights is repeated but the notion that to secure those rights governments are instituted among men and derive their powers from the people.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 02:24 PM
It's not natural rights, it's legal rights. Wake up and smell the roses!

Chris
01-18-2013, 02:41 PM
It's not natural rights, it's legal rights. Wake up and smell the roses!

It's natural rights and posited or legal protections. Rights aren't created by government, government is created by people with natural rights. We've been through this before, nemo, you've got it backwards. The Declaration says so, the Constitution says so.

RightWingExtremist
01-18-2013, 03:20 PM
"The Tea Party is more unpopular than ever before, according to a Rasmussen poll released Monday, with just three in 10 voters holding favorable views of the movement. Half of respondents said they view the party unfavorably.

Those numbers represent a considerable dive in support since the Tea Party's heyday in 2009, when a majority of voters rated it favorably."*

Uhh, at least the Tea Party is a coherent movement, unlike that amalgam of cognitive dissonance known as Occupy Wall Street. You have to be a coherent movement to get polled by Rasmussen. Coincidentally, Gallup is never mentioned.

GrassrootsConservative
01-18-2013, 03:27 PM
Uhh, at least the Tea Party is a coherent movement, unlike that amalgam of cognitive dissonance known as Occupy Wall Street. You have to be a coherent movement to get polled by Rasmussen. Coincidentally, Gallup is never mentioned.

Like I said on page 1, OWS could only WISH to have that kind of approval rating.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 04:21 PM
No. The Declaration of Independence does no establish our rights. Is the Constitution that the font of our rights and liberty; which is the rejection of "natural rights".

Chris
01-18-2013, 04:26 PM
No. The Declaration of Independence does no establish our rights. Is the Constitution that the font of our tights and liberty; which is the rejection of "natural rights".

That's the same sort of rhetorical trick you pulled last time we discussed this. No one said the Declaration established rights, nemo, why do you need to argue with straw men? Your other rhetorical tactic is to merely repeat your opinion. So your post adds nothing to the discussion.


Listen, if you think the Constitution creates our "tights and liberty" then cite where it does this.



For anyone interested, here's the thread where nemo went through the same repetitions, straw men, contradictions, anachronisms and other machinations: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9827-A-liberal-s-case-for-the-Second-Amendment.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 04:36 PM
I'm sorry for you. You don't have any natural rights under the Constitution. In fact, you don't want the Constitution at all. You want the Declartion of Independence; which was not adopted. Well, you can go back and live then - without electricity, without cars, without everything provided by law. Go away!

Chris
01-18-2013, 04:45 PM
I'm sorry for you. You don't have any natural rights under the Constitution. In fact, you don't want the Constitution at all. You want the Declartion of Independence; which was not adopted. Well, you can go back and live then - without electricity, without cars, without everything provided by law. Go away!

Ad hom and a slew of straw men.


If you think the Constitution creates our "tights and liberty" then cite where it does this.

Nemo
01-18-2013, 04:47 PM
You are a subversive. You do not acknoldege the rule of law. You are a traitor.

GrassrootsConservative
01-18-2013, 05:00 PM
It's not natural rights, it's legal rights. Wake up and smell the roses!

Where does government come from?

People.

Where do people come from?

Nature.

Government doesn't PRODUCE anything, much less rights.

Chris
01-18-2013, 07:01 PM
You are a subversive. You do not acknoldege the rule of law. You are a traitor.

Reduced to name calling, my my.

zelmo1234
01-18-2013, 07:35 PM
I'm sorry for you. You don't have any natural rights under the Constitution. In fact, you don't want the Constitution at all. You want the Declartion of Independence; which was not adopted. Well, you can go back and live then - without electricity, without cars, without everything provided by law. Go away!

I thin that you are right and wrong if that is possible. I do beleive that the declaration and the constitution are separate documents, but like the old testament and new testament, one di not come to abolish the other but to fulfil it.

The constitution establishes the Natural rights of life liberty and the persuit of happiness. these are the right given by God if you will, and that can not be taken away by man.

The constitution seeks to extablish order nad restrain the government. and give people rights fron the government. They did give the porcess for the government to chnage these rights, So in fact the rights given by the government in the constitution can through the process of amending the constitution.

The declaration on the other hand warns government that if they become to opressive it is the duty of the people to throw off such government and re establish the god given rights of life liberty and the persuit of happiness.

Chris
01-18-2013, 07:39 PM
I thin that you are right and wrong if that is possible. I do beleive that the declaration and the constitution are separate documents, but like the old testament and new testament, one di not come to abolish the other but to fulfil it.

The constitution establishes the Natural rights of life liberty and the persuit of happiness. these are the right given by God if you will, and that can not be taken away by man.

The constitution seeks to extablish order nad restrain the government. and give people rights fron the government. They did give the porcess for the government to chnage these rights, So in fact the rights given by the government in the constitution can through the process of amending the constitution.

The declaration on the other hand warns government that if they become to opressive it is the duty of the people to throw off such government and re establish the god given rights of life liberty and the persuit of happiness.


The constitution seeks to ... give people rights fron the government.

Cite where this is so in the Constitution. You will not find it. Perhaps you mean "protect" as in protect the people's rights from the government, as in the BoR.

zelmo1234
01-18-2013, 07:41 PM
Cite where this is so in the Constitution. You will not find it. Perhaps you mean "protect" as in protect the people's rights from the government, as in the BoR.

Yes that is amuch better way to word it, in other words it tell government what they can't do to the people or protects the people from opression by the government. Thanks the way I wrote it was confusing.