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Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 04:33 PM
Civilian death tolls ( I made a thread on this 6 months ago as well here is a link) http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/98071-Why-is-Trump-not-disclosing-civillian-casualties-He-out-murdured-Obama-already!

I want to share this information and my thoughts because I believe that our president should be reporting civilian death tolls. I believe it is important for the people of this nation to know what is being done in our name.

About 6 months ago I had started to wonder why we don’t see anything on the news anymore about the war in the Middle East. Things seemed peaceful like we were no longer at war. One day I decided to look into it, and what I found out shocked me. I found out that in reality more people were dying than ever before and the war was more intense than ever before but we weren’t being told about it. Trump was no longer complying with the Obama era Executive order to report civilian casualties. https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/01/we-should-know-how-many-civilians-die-in-u-s-strikes/

I found out that Trump killed more civilians in his first year in office than Obama’s entire 8 years in office. http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/u-s-air-strikes-are-killing-far-more-civilians-under-trump.html?gtm=bottom&gtm=top I was angry when I found out about this.

Our president handed over authority for military operations and it seems there are less checks and balances than ever before. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/19/us/trump-shifting-authority-over-military-operations-back-to-pentagon.html We are now dropping more bombs that ever before Bush dropped 70,000. Obama dropped 100,000 in his entire 8 years. Trump dropped 44,000 just in his first year alone. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trumps-military-drops-a-bomb-every-12-minutes-and-no-one-is-talking-about-it/

In recent news I have seen reports on Raqqa where it was indiscriminately bombed. Many civilians were killed. It is said the perhaps more civilians were killed than Isis members. There are still bodies buried in the ruble. The US coalition says that 104 civilians were killed in the strikes but so far 2,600 civilian bodies have been found, this alone changes the death tolls to something staggering. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/09/664360606/entire-families-wiped-out-u-s-airstrikes-killed-many-civilians-in-syria

I believe that what trump is doing is unchecked and is criminal. I believe that there should be some law enacted by congress that forces trump to start reporting civilian casualties. I also believe he should reclaim his position as commander in chief and not give unchecked authority to the Pentagon to fight wars in our name. I believe there should be more oversight, and they should be held accountable to the people of this nation. If we don’t know what is happening in our name we won’t be able to reign them back in through lawful means when they overstep their bounds. We must know if war crimes are being committed in our name, so we can do everything in our power to bring an end to it. Of course none of what I mentioned here includes what we have done in Yemen, although this is called a Saudi led war. We are providing targeting intelligence, and up until a few weeks ago were refueling planes. We are implicit in the death tolls in Yemen as well. We profited off of the deaths of countless civilians in the name of arms deals and powerful alliances.
I will include some further links

Raqqa
https://en.news-front.info/2018/11/12/left-to-count-their-dead-striking-report-breaks-msm-silence-on-plight-of-liberated-raqqa/

Civillian deaths increase under Trump
https://airwars.org/data/
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-is-bombing-the-shit-out-of-civilians-af8ed672bd70/#@!-out-of-civilians-af8ed672bd70/
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/07/17/civilian-deaths-under-trump-already-higher-than-during-obamas-entire-presidency/23034059/
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/trump-killed-more-civilians-obama/

Trump gives Mattis authority
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/world/asia/mattis-afghanistan-military.html

Captdon
11-24-2018, 04:37 PM
We see news about the ME daily. You might not but the rest of us certainly do. You have been brain-washed. You are the worst case of it I have ever seen.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 04:53 PM
We see news about the ME daily. You might not but the rest of us certainly do. You have been brain-washed. You are the worst case of it I have ever seen.
We are seeing reports in the last 2 months but before that there was practically nothing. But the reports we are seeing now are only a sliver of what is happening. If you don't like my threads stay out. I provide this info for intelligent people not trolls.

Captdon
11-24-2018, 05:03 PM
We are seeing reports in the last 2 months but before that there was practically nothing. But the reports we are seeing now are only a sliver of what is happening. If you don't like my threads stay out. I provide this info for intelligent people not trolls.

You provide these posts as some kind of cathartic value for yourself. I respond to them to keep you from slip slidin' away.

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 05:38 PM
The media needs to be honest. The slave trade is alive and well in Yemen. The United nations is involved with these caravans and slavery. It's why they are pushing for every country to give away their right to say who enters and who doesn't.

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 05:46 PM
The media needs to be honest. The slave trade is alive and well in Yemen. The United nations is involved with these caravans and slavery. It's why they are pushing for every country to give away their right to say who enters and who doesn't.

The UN is involved with the caravans and slavery? Lol...ok.

Next thing you know there will be blue berets blitzkrieging the Midwest, confiscating firearms and putting white male conservatives in concentration camps.

Helena
11-24-2018, 05:48 PM
The media needs to be honest. The slave trade is alive and well in Yemen. The United nations is involved with these caravans and slavery. It's why they are pushing for every country to give away their right to say who enters and who doesn't.

Good luck with that.

Do you have information related to my question in your other Yemen thread?

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 05:51 PM
Good luck with that.

Do you have information related to my question in your other Yemen thread?Where? Which one

Helena
11-24-2018, 05:59 PM
Where? Which one LOL. Sorry about that. I confused you with another poster. But, since you're here, this was the question: What information, if any do you have about what the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations), Arab League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League), Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Cooperation), G-77 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_77), Non-Aligned Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement), Arab Satellite Communications Organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Satellite_Communications_Organization), and the Arab Monetary Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Monetary_Fund) are doing about the circumstances in Yemen?

AZ Jim
11-24-2018, 06:09 PM
We see news about the ME daily. You might not but the rest of us certainly do. You have been brain-washed. You are the worst case of it I have ever seen.YOU are a total asshole!!! *yeah, yeah...I know

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 06:16 PM
LOL. Sorry about that. I confused you with another poster. But, since you're here, this was the question: What information, if any do you have about what the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations), Arab League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League), Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_the_Islamic_Cooperation), G-77 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_77), Non-Aligned Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement), Arab Satellite Communications Organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Satellite_Communications_Organization), and the Arab Monetary Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Monetary_Fund) are doing about the circumstances in Yemen?
It's complicated over there. They wanted to separate Yemen into 6 groups or states. It started in 2011 with the Arab uprising. All these groups and SA are tearing this country apart. Many civilians are being killed and slavery going on.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 06:23 PM
The wars in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan have been extensively covered. Often they get pushed off page one by something the media deems to be more important, such as another stupid tweet from Trump. Or to kiss Obama's ass. Or to make fun of Bush.

The war in Yemen has not been extensively covered and I have mentioned that time and again over the years.

As for the authorities granted to the combatant commander, I think Trump has done a much better job than Obama and even Bush - but for different reasons.


Bush accepted General Petraeus's COIN doctrine (Obama did as well and micromanaged on top of that). COIN is a counter-insurgency doctrine that attempts to protect civilians and accepts US combat deaths in the process. It rejects major combat operations (at least after US forces have reached their initial objectives). It is a doctrine that I think can work (in Iraq, not Afghanistan) if you are willing to accept a very long war. (We never consistently tried it.) The problem with it is that the American public would not accept it if they knew the costs upfront. I say it would work in Iraq because there is an underlying system of governmental and civilian institutions to build upon. This is almost completely absent in Afghanistan which is existentially still tribal. (Iraq is tribal as well, but they, outside of internal strife accept governmental rule).

Obama micromanaged the war with rules of engagement and with White House approval over major missions. It protects civilians, but hampers military operations. That is not the way to fight a war as we saw in Vietnam.

Trump has moved away from both COIN and micromanagement of the combatant commanders. This was successful in Iraq and Syria even with relying on local forces to bear much of the burden of ground combat. However in Afghanistan he has not made the decision to win or to leave. IMO since I don't believe victory is possible in Afghanistan we should leave.

In war combatants die. Civilians die. In the sort of war that the Taliban, al Qaeda, and ISIL fight a lot of civilians die, because they hide and fight among the civilian population. They have no other option, because if they faced the US and its allies outside of civilian population they would die en mass as seen in the initial attacks in Afghanistan and much more so in Iraq. (Read Thunder Run to see what the US military does to an enemy in open combat- warning, graphic.)

Civilian deaths in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan are on the heads of the enemy. In fact their very strategy of hiding and fighting within the civilian population violates the International laws of land warfare. Civilians actually lose their Geneva protections when used in such a manner. Of course for political reasons we don't kill them all and let god sort them out.

So far as Yemen go, the civilian deaths are solely the responsibly of Yemeni combatants on both sides, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. US participation (outside of military sales) is directed against al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. As I mentioned earlier today, AQAI is the most dangerous terrorist organization to the West today. Again, they hide among civilians.

All of this death and wringing of hands over it is the reason why our Founders mandated in the Constitution that a declaration of war is needed for the US to wage war. That process will result in a declaration of war only if the civilian population largely supports it. That keeps the wailing and gnashing of teeth to a minimum.

Once the US decides to go to war, go to break the enemy's will to fight as fast as possible and end the suffering of the civilians. You save civilian lives in the long run.

That is what we should demand of our government.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 06:33 PM
The wars in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan have been extensively covered. Often they get pushed off page one by something the media deems to be more important, such as another stupid tweet from Trump. Or to kiss Obama's ass. Or to make fun of Bush.

The war in Yemen has not been extensively covered and I have mentioned that time and again over the years.

As for the authorities granted to the combatant commander, I think Trump has done a much better job than Obama and even Bush - but for different reasons.


Bush accepted General Petraeus's COIN doctrine (Obama did as well and micromanaged on top of that). COIN is a counter-insurgency doctrine that attempts to protect civilians and accepts US combat deaths in the process. It rejects major combat operations (at least after US forces have reached their initial objectives). It is a doctrine that I think can work (in Iraq, not Afghanistan) if you are willing to accept a very long war. (We never consistently tried it.) The problem with it is that the American public would not accept it if they knew the costs upfront. I say it would work in Iraq because there is an underlying system of governmental and civilian institutions to build upon. This is almost completely absent in Afghanistan which is existentially still tribal. (Iraq is tribal as well, but they, outside of internal strife accept governmental rule).

Obama micromanaged the war with rules of engagement and with White House approval over major missions. It protects civilians, but hampers military operations. That is not the way to fight a war as we saw in Vietnam.

Trump has moved away from both COIN and micromanagement of the combatant commanders. This was successful in Iraq and Syria even with relying on local forces to bear much of the burden of ground combat. However in Afghanistan he has not made the decision to win or to leave. IMO since I don't believe victory is possible in Afghanistan we should leave.

In war combatants die. Civilians die. In the sort of war that the Taliban, al Qaeda, and ISIL fight a lot of civilians die, because they hide and fight among the civilian population. They have no other option, because if they faced the US and its allies outside of civilian population they would die en mass as seen in the initial attacks in Afghanistan and much more so in Iraq. (Read Thunder Run to see what the US military does to an enemy in open combat- warning, graphic.)

Civilian deaths in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan are on the heads of the enemy. In fact their very strategy of hiding and fighting within the civilian population violates the International laws of land warfare. Civilians actually lose their Geneva protections when used in such a manner. Of course for political reasons we don't kill them all and let god sort them out.

So far as Yemen go, the civilian deaths are solely the responsibly of Yemeni combatants on both sides, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. US participation (outside of military sales) is directed against al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. As I mentioned earlier today, AQAI is the most dangerous terrorist organization to the West today. Again, they hide among civilians.

All of this death and wringing of hands over it is the reason why our Founders mandated in the Constitution that a declaration of war is needed for the US to wage war. That process will result in a declaration of war only if the civilian population largely supports it. That keeps the wailing and gnashing of teeth to a minimum.

Once the US decides to go to war, go to break the enemy's will to fight as fast as possible and end the suffering of the civilians. You save civilian lives in the long run.

That is what we should demand of our government.

Yeah right more war is the answer to ending war. It hasn't worked so far. Trump is a monster the worst president we have ever had. He has killed way too many. He is mass murdering more than any president we have ever had in the past.

Captain Obvious
11-24-2018, 06:36 PM
lol

Beevee
11-24-2018, 06:38 PM
We see news about the ME daily. You might not but the rest of us certainly do. You have been brain-washed. You are the worst case of it I have ever seen.

Lol. The pot calling the kettle black. A Trump disciple claiming someone has been brainwashed when you are the one who fits the bill perfectly.

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 06:41 PM
Yeah right more war is the answer to ending war. It hasn't worked so far. Trump is a monster the worst president we have ever had. He has killed way too many. He is mass murdering more than any president we have ever had in the past.

While I agree Trump is a shitty president, the civil war in Yemen began before Trump was elected. The war and casualties would probably not be much different if a Dem was in power.

The US has decided to back what they perceive as the lesser of two evils.

I understand that you're rightfully passionate and angered by this human disaster...and the US certainly can do better than it's doing, but it's disingenuous to claim Trump is a mass murderer.

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 06:51 PM
Yeah right more war is the answer to ending war. It hasn't worked so far. Trump is a monster the worst president we have ever had. He has killed way too many. He is mass murdering more than any president we have ever had in the past.

Because the truth is the US, Israel. Britain and Saudi are behind this since 2011. I was talking about this when Obama was in office and the media wasn't. I was talking about how many women and children were being sold into sex slavery back then too.

Agent Zero
11-24-2018, 06:55 PM
We see news about the ME daily. You might not but the rest of us certainly do. You have been brain-washed. You are the worst case of it I have ever seen.
We have?

The only news I've seen lately is about the murderous Saudi Prince and his bucket carrier Trump.

Seriously, Trump doesn't care about the war in Afghanistan. He won't even visit the troops.

He's scared.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 06:56 PM
Yeah right more war is the answer to ending war. It hasn't worked so far. Trump is a monster the worst president we have ever had. He has killed way too many. He is mass murdering more than any president we have ever had in the past.

What about my point about having a declaration of war prior to waging war?

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:01 PM
While I agree Trump is a $#@!ty president, the civil war in Yemen began before Trump was elected. The war and casualties would probably not be much different if a Dem was in power.

The US has decided to back what they perceive as the lesser of two evils.

I understand that you're rightfully passionate and angered by this human disaster...and the US certainly can do better than it's doing, but it's disingenuous to claim Trump is a mass murderer.
Genocide in Yemen is mass murder. Indiscriminate bombing in Syria is mass murder, how is it disingenuous to say the truth?

Who is the lesser of the two evils? Are you speaking of Iran, or Saudi Arabia?

It is 100% true that Trump is killing more than all of our other presidents have, he has taken this to new levels. He killed more people in his first 9 months than Obama killed in his entire 8 years. Then he stopped reporting death tolls. Yes he is killing more than other presidents these are proven facts. If you kill 10 people you will be called a mass murderer, So Trump or Obama can kill thousands or millions and you are telling me it is disingenuous to call him a murderer?

No republican or democrat as a president in America has ever ever ever taken killing to the levels that Trump has. This is a fact. Not hyperbole or crazy ranting these are facts. I am not ok with this unchecked murder being conducted in my name with my tax dollars, and I do not want my nation to prosper off of arms deals that are torturing and killing small children as we speak. To me this is unacceptable.

I understand perfectly well that this Yemen business began before Trump, it began with Obama, the same exact thing was happening but on a much much smaller scale, and when things got out of control at some point Obama said enough, and froze our arms deals with the Saudis. But Trump brought the arms deals back online, and the death and suffering is on a scale in Yemen never seen before. It is all manmade and we are the perpetrators.

This issue has nothing to do with being a dem or a repub, Trump is something else entirely, he is in a league of his own. He is nothing like we have seen in our nation before. I do appreciate your reply. I find you to be one of the decent people in this forum even if you disagree with me.

But I do not agree that it would have been this way no matter who got elected. No one else would have ever dared to do the things Trump has done he has no regard for human life, he has no dignity, he has no morals. He is a rogue president who needs reeled back in, our national security and the security of the world is at stake. He just needs put in his rightful place, and he needs to abide by the laws of this nation and the laws of the world. He is in violation of damn near every single rule in the book. He is trying to assert himself as a dictator, or a king rather than a president.

Innocent people are dying on an unimaginable scale because of this rogue man. It must end!

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 07:02 PM
Everyone always thinks it will be different over there if an R or D is in office. In the ME it doesn't matter. If it's not Obama threatening Syria defending it's borders, it's Trump supplying arms to SA to take out Yemen. Not a one of them cares that Israel was helping ISIS.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:03 PM
What about my point about having a declaration of war prior to waging war?

Yes that would be constitutional, but what is he going to ask congress to declare a war on the children of Yemen so he can finish them off. Congress will not approve of that, this is the reason he is doing it the scandalous way. He is in clear violation of the constitution.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 07:04 PM
We killed far more people Iraq than Yemen. In fact, the US is killing very few people in Yemen.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 07:05 PM
Yes that would be constitutional, but what is he going to ask congress to declare a war on the children of Yemen so he can finish them off. Congress will not approve of that, this is the reason he is doing it the scandalous way. He is in clear violation of the constitution.
No way in hell would congress declare war in Yemen. They don't have anything we want or need. The American people wouldn't stand for it.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:09 PM
No way in hell would congress declare war in Yemen. They don't have anything we want or need. The American people wouldn't stand for it.
That is exactly what I said read it again

roadmaster
11-24-2018, 07:12 PM
We should go back to what our founders said, trade with all, alley with none. We are being sucked into wars while we should only be defending our country.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:13 PM
We killed far more people Iraq than Yemen. In fact, the US is killing very few people in Yemen.

So then in your opinion providing targeting intelligence that tells them where to drop their bombs and refueling their planes so they can carpet bomb is not us doing the killing? Us selling them arms knowing they are committing genocide with them is not us doing the genocide our self?

We guide them to target farms weddings funerals grain silos water treatment and sanitation facilities, we guide them to bomb ports where food aid can come in. We guide them to bomb civilian neighborhoods. We are the ones targeting civilians and their vital infrastructures. It is our war.

Cletus
11-24-2018, 07:30 PM
So then in your opinion providing targeting intelligence that tells them where to drop their bombs and refueling their planes so they can carpet bomb is not us doing the killing?

Saudi Arabia doesn't have the means to "carpet bomb" anyone.

That may not fit into your narrative, but it is a fact.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 07:32 PM
That is exactly what I said read it again

I was referring to war on Yemen. Not its children.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 07:34 PM
So then in your opinion providing targeting intelligence that tells them where to drop their bombs and refueling their planes so they can carpet bomb is not us doing the killing? Us selling them arms knowing they are committing genocide with them is not us doing the genocide our self?

We guide them to target farms weddings funerals grain silos water treatment and sanitation facilities, we guide them to bomb ports where food aid can come in. We guide them to bomb civilian neighborhoods. We are the ones targeting civilians and their vital infrastructures. It is our war.

The US is not purposely guiding munitions on civilian targets.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:38 PM
I was referring to war on Yemen. Not its children.

A war on Yemen includes the children. You didn't answer what I said.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:39 PM
The US is not purposely guiding munitions on civilian targets.

Yes they are. They are the ones providing the targeting intel. And the ones who are being bombed are civilians and their infrastructure. These are facts.

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 07:45 PM
Yes they are. They are the ones providing the targeting intel. And the ones who are being bombed are civilians and their infrastructure. These are facts.
That's not true. The US aren't directing all operations and supplying all targets. The Saudis and the coalition direct most of their operations themselves.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 07:47 PM
Yes they are. They are the ones providing the targeting intel. And the ones who are being bombed are civilians and their infrastructure. These are facts.
I have been in the field and in targeting cells and I have been the officer to do legal reviews on investigations where civilians get harmed in attacks.

The US does not purposely target civilians with munitions.

In many instances US troops are denied fires or close air support because civilians are too close.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:58 PM
I have been in the field and in targeting cells and I have been the officer to do legal reviews on investigations where civilians get harmed in attacks.

The US does not purposely target civilians with munitions.

In many instances US troops are denied fires or close air support because civilians are too close.
Well this is war under Trump. It is what we are doing we are targeting civilians, and their infrastructure. This is just what is happening. It is unacceptable! We provide them with targeting intel, perhaps when we bomb farms and schools and hospitals and food aid centers and civilian neighborhoods it is because Houthis are there. Guess what the Houthis are the people of Yemen. I suppose when we target their water and sanitation there must have been some Houthis nearby. Whether you want to believe it or not, we provide their targets, and their targets are civilians. Same shit in Syria.

We need to end our support immediately! All support!

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 07:59 PM
I have been in the field and in targeting cells and I have been the officer to do legal reviews on investigations where civilians get harmed in attacks.

The US does not purposely target civilians with munitions.

In many instances US troops are denied fires or close air support because civilians are too close.

Oh yes and I have read your amazing stories of how you massacred the enemy while jamming on your headphones and how amazing it was. So spare me the moral shit!

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 08:00 PM
The US does not deliberately target civilians with munitions.


Well this is war under Trump. It is what we are doing we are targeting civilians, and their infrastructure. This is just what is happening. It is unacceptable! We provide them with targeting intel, perhaps when we bomb farms and schools and hospitals and food aid centers and civilian neighborhoods it is because Houthis are there. Guess what the Houthis are the people of Yemen. I suppose when we target their water and sanitation there must have been some Houthis nearby. Whether you want to believe it or not, we provide their targets, and their targets are civilians. Same shit in Syria.

We need to end our support immediately! All support!

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 08:01 PM
Well this is war under Trump. It is what we are doing we are targeting civilians, and their infrastructure. This is just what is happening. It is unacceptable! We provide them with targeting intel, perhaps when we bomb farms and schools and hospitals and food aid centers and civilian neighborhoods it is because Houthis are there. Guess what the Houthis are the people of Yemen. I suppose when we target their water and sanitation there must have been some Houthis nearby. Whether you want to believe it or not, we provide their targets, and their targets are civilians. Same shit in Syria.

We need to end our support immediately! All support!

Again, that's not really accurate. You're allowing emotion to cloud facts.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 08:01 PM
Oh yes and I have read your amazing stories of how you massacred the enemy while jamming on your headphones and how amazing it was. So spare me the moral shit!

Where did I say that?

And for the record I never wore headphones in combat operations.

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 08:07 PM
Oh yes and I have read your amazing stories of how you massacred the enemy while jamming on your headphones and how amazing it was. So spare me the moral shit!
Peter and I disagree on nearly every political issue and our political positions are pretty far apart...but he doesn't strike me as a person who revels in killing or warfare.

Your descriptions are becoming extremely hyperbolic and inaccurate.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 09:25 PM
Where did I say that? And for the record I never wore headphones in combat operations.My apologies It was not you who said it, you were just part of the conversation, I apologize for being wrong on that one. It was Tahuyaman post #44http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/100236-Is-Bin-Laden-Dead?highlight=pink+floyd I must have thought it was you who said it because you were part of the conversation, and I was so disappointed when I read it. But I see it was because you gave him a like when he talked of slaughtering people in post #42 But you gave him a like for saying those terrible things.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 09:31 PM
Peter and I disagree on nearly every political issue and our political positions are pretty far apart...but he doesn't strike me as a person who revels in killing or warfare.

Your descriptions are becoming extremely hyperbolic and inaccurate.

I was not being hyperbolic I made a mistake, I have apologized see post #41

Agent Zero
11-24-2018, 10:06 PM
I was not being hyperbolic I made a mistake, I have apologized see post #41
Seems like Common Sense is getting all hyperbolic over our posts lately.

Peter1469
11-24-2018, 10:08 PM
My apologies It was not you who said it, you were just part of the conversation, I apologize for being wrong on that one. It was Tahuyaman post #44http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/100236-Is-Bin-Laden-Dead?highlight=pink+floyd I must have thought it was you who said it because you were part of the conversation, and I was so disappointed when I read it. But I see it was because you gave him a like when he talked of slaughtering people in post #42 But you gave him a like for saying those terrible things.
The Iraqi army was effectively slaughtered in all battle spaces during Desert Storm. He and I were in two different parts of the war, but both at the front or beyond the front.

Tahuyaman
11-24-2018, 10:28 PM
And for the record I never wore headphones in combat operations.

That was me. I wired a Walkman cassette player into a CVC helmet.

By the way, we did slaughter the Iraqi’s. Are we not supposed to recognize that?

Common Sense
11-24-2018, 10:29 PM
Seems like @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) is getting all hyperbolic over our posts lately.
I disagree that I'm being hyperbolic. I'm simply trying to express my point of view. I'm not using hyperbolic language or making broad unsubstantiated claims.

Frankly I'm disappointed. Countering the arguments of liberals isn't something I want to do. I typically side with liberals...but when I see liberals engaging in hysterics and hyperbole, I feel it's my duty to be critical. I'm not one for blind partisan acceptance. In fact, when I see liberals engaging in hyperbole and fiction, I speak out to defend the rational liberal point of view.

In my opinion, liberals should stick to facts, reason and to not sink to the level of those we oppose.

Conservatives have to deal with the crazy racists in their ranks. Liberals have to deal with crazies of their own.

Tahuyaman
11-24-2018, 10:36 PM
Civilian death tolls ( I made a thread on this 6 months ago as well here is a link) http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/98071-Why-is-Trump-not-disclosing-civillian-casualties-He-out-murdured-Obama-already!

I want to share this information and my thoughts because I believe that our president should be reporting civilian death tolls. I believe it is important for the people of this nation to know what is being done in our name.

About 6 months ago I had started to wonder why we don’t see anything on the news anymore about the war in the Middle East. Things seemed peaceful like we were no longer at war. One day I decided to look into it, and what I found out shocked me. I found out that in reality more people were dying than ever before and the war was more intense than ever before but we weren’t being told about it. Trump was no longer complying with the Obama era Executive order to report civilian casualties. https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/01/we-should-know-how-many-civilians-die-in-u-s-strikes/

I found out that Trump killed more civilians in his first year in office than Obama’s entire 8 years in office. http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/07/u-s-air-strikes-are-killing-far-more-civilians-under-trump.html?gtm=bottom&gtm=top I was angry when I found out about this.

Our president handed over authority for military operations and it seems there are less checks and balances than ever before. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/19/us/trump-shifting-authority-over-military-operations-back-to-pentagon.html We are now dropping more bombs that ever before Bush dropped 70,000. Obama dropped 100,000 in his entire 8 years. Trump dropped 44,000 just in his first year alone. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trumps-military-drops-a-bomb-every-12-minutes-and-no-one-is-talking-about-it/

In recent news I have seen reports on Raqqa where it was indiscriminately bombed. Many civilians were killed. It is said the perhaps more civilians were killed than Isis members. There are still bodies buried in the ruble. The US coalition says that 104 civilians were killed in the strikes but so far 2,600 civilian bodies have been found, this alone changes the death tolls to something staggering. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/09/664360606/entire-families-wiped-out-u-s-airstrikes-killed-many-civilians-in-syria

I believe that what trump is doing is unchecked and is criminal. I believe that there should be some law enacted by congress that forces trump to start reporting civilian casualties. I also believe he should reclaim his position as commander in chief and not give unchecked authority to the Pentagon to fight wars in our name. I believe there should be more oversight, and they should be held accountable to the people of this nation. If we don’t know what is happening in our name we won’t be able to reign them back in through lawful means when they overstep their bounds. We must know if war crimes are being committed in our name, so we can do everything in our power to bring an end to it. Of course none of what I mentioned here includes what we have done in Yemen, although this is called a Saudi led war. We are providing targeting intelligence, and up until a few weeks ago were refueling planes. We are implicit in the death tolls in Yemen as well. We profited off of the deaths of countless civilians in the name of arms deals and powerful alliances.
I will include some further links

Raqqa
https://en.news-front.info/2018/11/12/left-to-count-their-dead-striking-report-breaks-msm-silence-on-plight-of-liberated-raqqa/

Civillian deaths increase under Trump
https://airwars.org/data/
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-is-bombing-the-$#@!-out-of-civilians-af8ed672bd70/#@!-out-of-civilians-af8ed672bd70/
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/07/17/civilian-deaths-under-trump-already-higher-than-during-obamas-entire-presidency/23034059/
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/trump-killed-more-civilians-obama/

Trump gives Mattis authority
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/world/asia/mattis-afghanistan-military.html
I care more about the lives of the US soldiers deployed there.

Just AnotherPerson
11-24-2018, 11:59 PM
I disagree that I'm being hyperbolic. I'm simply trying to express my point of view. I'm not using hyperbolic language or making broad unsubstantiated claims.

Frankly I'm disappointed. Countering the arguments of liberals isn't something I want to do. I typically side with liberals...but when I see liberals engaging in hysterics and hyperbole, I feel it's my duty to be critical. I'm not one for blind partisan acceptance. In fact, when I see liberals engaging in hyperbole and fiction, I speak out to defend the rational liberal point of view.

In my opinion, liberals should stick to facts, reason and to not sink to the level of those we oppose.

Conservatives have to deal with the crazy racists in their ranks. Liberals have to deal with crazies of their own.
I do not agree that my posts are hyperbole I do my best to bring facts. Some facts may just be too much for some to handle.

Just AnotherPerson
11-25-2018, 12:01 AM
Seems like @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) is getting all hyperbolic over our posts lately.
I am ok with it, I have always liked common sense. I don't feel like he is getting hyperbolic. He does not agree with me and he has been pretty decent to me so far.

Peter1469
11-25-2018, 12:06 AM
That was me. I wired a Walkman cassette player into a CVC helmet.

By the way, we did slaughter the Iraqi’s. Are we not supposed to recognize that?
I would add that they were combatants.

Just AnotherPerson
11-25-2018, 12:06 AM
That was me. I wired a Walkman cassette player into a CVC helmet.

By the way, we did slaughter the Iraqi’s. Are we not supposed to recognize that?

Yes it was you, and I was appalled by what you had said in that thread, but I think I was more upset that peter had given you a like because I actually like Peter. You on the other hand have never given me a reason to be on friendly terms in any way, as you are very trollish. It was the way you talked about it in the thread it was awful. You spoke of it like it was good times slaughtering people. Anyone who would like to read what you said has the link.

Just AnotherPerson
11-25-2018, 12:10 AM
I would add that they were combatants.

It is one thing for a soldier to do his duty killing combatants it is another thing entirely to enjoy it and think it was an amazing time. Most people who have served do not share that view. They take no joy in having taken a life. It is a great sorrow for them for the rest of their lives.

Peter1469
11-25-2018, 12:16 AM
It is one thing for a soldier to do his duty killing combatants it is another thing entirely to enjoy it and think it was an amazing time. Most people who have served do not share that view. They take no joy in having taken a life. It is a great sorrow for them for the rest of their lives.

Combat vets tend to isolate and only discuss their experiences with other vets because of this.

Common Sense
11-25-2018, 12:21 AM
I do not agree that my posts are hyperbole I do my best to bring facts. Some facts may just be too much for some to handle.

I guess...

But I think we could all use a bit more empathy and an understanding of counter arguments rather than just making stereotypical arguments.

Calling Trump a mass murderer isn't really much different than calling Obama a Muslim or a communist. Rather than sinking to the level of those you oppose, you might consider a tempered approach that appeals to reason rather than emotion.

Calling Trump a mass murderer is hyperbole. You'd be better suited criticizing Trump for the plethora of things he's actually done rather than exaggeration and emotional outbursts.

Just AnotherPerson
11-25-2018, 12:42 AM
I guess...

But I think we could all use a bit more empathy and an understanding of counter arguments rather than just making stereotypical arguments.

Calling Trump a mass murderer isn't really much different than calling Obama a Muslim or a communist. Rather than sinking to the level of those you oppose, you might consider a tempered approach that appeals to reason rather than emotion.

Calling Trump a mass murderer is hyperbole. You'd be better suited criticizing Trump for the plethora of things he's actually done rather than exaggeration and emotional outbursts.

He has killed thousands and thousands of people how is saying that truth out loud making me sink to his level? Obama was a mass murderer too but not nothing compared to Trump. I am just not afraid to say the truth that's all. I don't feel like I sank to any low level just because I said something absolutely true out loud. Hey and it is totally different than discriminating against a persons religion or political leanings. Crimes of humanity are not in the same category.

These things are facts. If he outkilled Obama in his first 9 months in office and then stopped reporting, do you think that is normal business as usual. He has out killed all of our past presidents and you tell me it is hyperbole to say the truth of the matter.

You have also told me it is hyperbole to talk about the genocide in the past. But if anything I am not being hyperbole enough. This should be something that everyone is enraged about and stops everything they are doing to bring and end to this.

If it were us who were being killed, and starved. If we were watching our children die, and we were the ones being bombed. You would hope to god that someone would have mercy and make it end.

But our president has said he cant harm the arms deals. So all these children must continue to die so that we can prosper and have jobs. This is not hyperbole this is the state of our nation. These are facts. I may not be accurate on some minor details here and there but if I am wrong it is because the news is wrong.

Oh and again, I seen in another thread you said I was a liberal again. I am not. I have no political leaning or party what so ever. I am just a person. I care about all of humanity. I am on the side of humanity, and do not wish for harm to come to anyone in this world. I believe we all have the right to live out our lives in peace.

There is enough natural suffering in peoples lives. There is no need to add to human suffering by harming others, and especially not harming others so that we may prosper off of their suffering.

So what about the Op do you consider this to be hyperbole as well? It is all facts......

Just AnotherPerson
11-25-2018, 12:47 AM
Combat vets tend to isolate and only discuss their experiences with other vets because of this.
The many combat vets I have known have had no problem talking about things and their pain. That is a common thing the ones I have known seem to have a lot of pain, and there is not much in this world that can help that kind of pain. It is really sad. I had made a thread several months ago also with many videos of combat veterans who hated what they had done and knew that they were fighting wars based on lies and it was very painful for them. To see a thread in this forum where someone was bragging about it is not the norm.

Common Sense
11-25-2018, 12:52 AM
Meh...

Cletus
11-25-2018, 03:15 AM
I do not agree that my posts are hyperbole I do my best to bring facts.
No hyperbole?

Shall we talk about "carpet bombing"?

Cletus
11-25-2018, 03:33 AM
Something I don't understand is why people think civilians are or should be immune to effects of warfare. Wars are not fought between armies. They are fought between nations and the governments of those nations.

In WWII, we killed somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000 (most estimates around 60,000) civilians in Dresden in 3 nights of bombing. In Hamburg, it was around 45,000 (some estimates go as high as 80,000) in 6 days. In Tokyo, we killed as many as 100,000 in 2 days.

Wars are won in 2 ways. You either destroy the enemy's ability to fight or you destroy his will to fight. That is just the way it is.

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 09:27 AM
Yes it was you, and I was appalled by what you had said in that thread, but I think I was more upset that peter had given you a like because I actually like Peter. You on the other hand have never given me a reason to be on friendly terms in any way, as you are very trollish. It was the way you talked about it in the thread it was awful. You spoke of it like it was good times slaughtering people. Anyone who would like to read what you said has the link.

What was so appalling?

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 09:28 AM
Something I don't understand is why people think civilians are or should be immune to effects of warfare. Wars are not fought between armies. They are fought between nations and the governments of those nations.

In WWII, we killed somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000 (most estimates around 60,000) civilians in Dresden in 3 nights of bombing. In Hamburg, it was around 45,000 (some estimates go as high as 80,000) in 6 days. In Tokyo, we killed as many as 100,000 in 2 days.

Wars are won in 2 ways. You either destroy the enemy's ability to fight or you destroy his will to fight. That is just the way it is.
People now expect war with no casualties or fatalities. War is supposed to be, it needs to be the dirtiest thing man can do to other men. It needs to lead to mass suffering. It needs to truly outrage and frighten people.


If not, we will be in a perpetual state of war.

Mini Me
11-25-2018, 09:47 AM
Oh yes and I have read your amazing stories of how you massacred the enemy while jamming on your headphones and how amazing it was. So spare me the moral shit!

He was only following orders! Shades of Nuremberg.

Mini Me
11-25-2018, 10:05 AM
Combat vets tend to isolate and only discuss their experiences with other vets because of this.

I knew vets from NAM who bragged about the killing and rejoiced in it!My Lai was not a once only occurrance. John Kerry knew, and tried to tell us about it.I worked with ex-tank commanders at the Cal CDF fighting fires, and the stories they told were horrendous!

War itself is an ATROCITY! There is no way you can glorify it!Once you kill your first, killing en masse becomes easy. And you come back with your soul damaged beyond repair!All the medals pinned on our soldiers cannot ease the damage.War turns ordinary men into raging, killing psychpaths, and we reward them for it. And we expect them to switch off that "kill" button when they come back.

What we need in this country is a new, MASSIVE ANTI-WAR movement!

Mini Me
11-25-2018, 10:20 AM
People now expect war with no casualties or fatalities. War is supposed to be, it needs to be the dirtiest thing man can do to other men. It needs to lead to mass suffering. It needs to truly outrage and frighten people.

You are totally devoid of any morals whatsoever!

If not, we will be in a perpetual state of war.

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 10:27 AM
I see he’s back to screwing up the quote function again.

Still, making war as destructive and violent as you can is the moral position to take. It convinces bad people to think twice or three times before they act foolishly.

Captdon
11-25-2018, 12:31 PM
The many combat vets I have known have had no problem talking about things and their pain. That is a common thing the ones I have known seem to have a lot of pain, and there is not much in this world that can help that kind of pain. It is really sad. I had made a thread several months ago also with many videos of combat veterans who hated what they had done and knew that they were fighting wars based on lies and it was very painful for them. To see a thread in this forum where someone was bragging about it is not the norm.

I have never heard a combat vet talk about his combat experience. Not WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Irag or Afghanistan. That includes my brothers. Neither have you.

Peter1469
11-25-2018, 12:34 PM
People now expect war with no casualties or fatalities. War is supposed to be, it needs to be the dirtiest thing man can do to other men. It needs to lead to mass suffering. It needs to truly outrage and frighten people.


If not, we will be in a perpetual state of war.

Our current ME wars have resulted in light US casualties- because of the nature of the conflict. To be cold, US casualties are militarily insignificant.

In our next peer-near peer war we will again see heavy casualties to include the loss of major ground formations and naval ships. Our aircraft will likely fair well; although some claim that Russian and Chinese military 5G aircraft are good, that simply is not the case.

Peter1469
11-25-2018, 12:36 PM
I knew vets from NAM who bragged about the killing and rejoiced in it!My Lai was not a once only occurrance. John Kerry knew, and tried to tell us about it.I worked with ex-tank commanders at the Cal CDF fighting fires, and the stories they told were horrendous!

War itself is an ATROCITY! There is no way you can glorify it!Once you kill your first, killing en masse becomes easy. And you come back with your soul damaged beyond repair!All the medals pinned on our soldiers cannot ease the damage.War turns ordinary men into raging, killing psychpaths, and we reward them for it. And we expect them to switch off that "kill" button when they come back.

What we need in this country is a new, MASSIVE ANTI-WAR movement!

The majority of combat soldiers do not act as you claim.

War is a natural state of man.

MMC
11-25-2018, 01:18 PM
The majority of combat soldiers do not act as you claim.

War is a natural state of man.


Moreover it isn't a President that has a decision on reporting the numbers of the dead Troops at the time, of a conflict.

Cletus
11-25-2018, 01:53 PM
People now expect war with no casualties or fatalities. War is supposed to be, it needs to be the dirtiest thing man can do to other men. It needs to lead to mass suffering. It needs to truly outrage and frighten people.


If not, we will be in a perpetual state of war.


Absolutely spot on.

"It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it." - Attributed to Robert E. Lee at the Battle of Fredericksburg, December 1862.

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 02:04 PM
Our current ME wars have resulted in light US casualties- because of the nature of the conflict. To be cold, US casualties are militarily insignificant.

In our next peer-near peer war we will again see heavy casualties to include the loss of major ground formations and naval ships. Our aircraft will likely fair well; although some claim that Russian and Chinese military 5G aircraft are good, that simply is not the case.

Our society is unable to face the consequences of a brutal war with thousands of US fatalities.

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 02:12 PM
The many combat vets I have known have had no problem talking about things and their pain. That is a common thing the ones I have known seem to have a lot of pain, and there is not much in this world that can help that kind of pain. It is really sad. I had made a thread several months ago also with many videos of combat veterans who hated what they had done and knew that they were fighting wars based on lies and it was very painful for them. To see a thread in this forum where someone was bragging about it is not the norm.
No one was bragging. Just stating a fact. Obviously it was a fact which bothers you for some reason.

Mini Me
11-25-2018, 02:32 PM
Our society is unable to face the consequences of a brutal war with thousands of US fatalities.
True! Vietnam taught us that. The war was brought to us in 'living color' every night on TV. And that helped end the war.

Now, you hardly ever see fatalities on the news!We need to show the true horror of war, not hide it behind propaganda!

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 02:34 PM
True! Vietnam taught us that. The war was brought to us in 'living color' every night on TV. And that helped end the war.

Now, you hardly ever see fatalities on the news!We need to show the true horror of war, not hide it behind propaganda!

That might be the first time we somewhat agree.

Mini Me
11-25-2018, 06:56 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dci3uMLV0AEKstR.jpg

Tahuyaman
11-25-2018, 07:16 PM
TDD is real and at epidemic proportions.

MMC
11-26-2018, 09:41 AM
Our society is unable to face the consequences of a brutal war with thousands of US fatalities.

Well, its more of the leftist society that is unable to face the consequences of War. I blame the good majority of them and the video games they play.

Tahuyaman
11-26-2018, 10:05 AM
Well, its more of the leftist society that is unable to face the consequences of War. I blame the good majority of them and the video games they play.
It odd that you would bring up the video game thing. It wasn’t very long ago when liberals were ridiculing those who said that the addiction to video games was hurting our children's development. Now the liberals are on board with that.


I don’t believe it’s only those on the left who can’t handle a prolonged and brutal war with thousands of fatalities. Everyone has become accustomed to war which has little to no impact upon the daily lives of those not fighting this war.


Now days in order to be considered a “war hero” by the general public all one needs to do is deploy and return. Most people today are clueless.