What are the long term consequences of automatization?

[donttread]

I know that chris has stated many times more jobs will be produced than lost but I wonder if that can only go on so long. And maybe it should only go so far. I know the super rich will get super richer . And maybe they shouldn't.
But in the long run shouldn't automatization decrease work weeks and increase SOL for all? If not why should the common man support this process in any way?
Last I knew the work week was not trending downward. Which was an advantage of the industrial revolution after it stabilized. Less hours than it took to run a farm, more freedom for vacations and the advancement of the leisure time industry. We got to a point where 40 and even 35 hour weeks were considered full time ( I've done my share of 65 hour weeks in my day) . But then we kinda got stuck there with rampant OT replaced by second jobs. I once had 4 at one time ( 1 fulltime, 1 part time and two per diem)
So if the common man can't have more time off and or more money to spend what's the advantage to society as a whole?

[Chris]

Automation results in higher productivity which creates more jobs. Been true since man invented the wheel, flints, spears, etc.

[MisterVeritis]

Yep. Automation has always resulted in increased productivity. As an example, we no longer use one-half of our people to farm to feed all of us.

[Sergeant Gleed]

1) Improved product quality.

2) Fewer fights at the Taco Bell and McDonalds counters.

[midcan5]

Automation is a double edged sword, it produces while it diminishes work. Think of farming or any other work today. Most jobs today are service jobs not productive work. When I started work we fixed everything down to the circuit break, today you replace the piece. Fifty people are now replaced by a few and sometimes none where I worked long ago. Long term I think automation has done what wealth and power have always done, concentrated wealth in the hands of a few. Our economic wage statistics support that thought. The following piece is an interesting take on today.


https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/how-this-all-happened/


"Historian Phillips-Fein traces the hidden history of the Reagan revolution to a coterie of business executives, including General Electric official and Reagan mentor Lemuel Boulware, who saw labor unions, government regulation, high taxes and welfare spending as dire threats to their profits and power. From the 1930s onward, the author argues, they provided the money, organization and fervor for a decades-long war against New Deal liberalism—funding campaigns, think tanks, magazines and lobbying groups, and indoctrinating employees in the virtues of unfettered capitalism."


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2751831-invisible-hands

[Sergeant Gleed]

If a business owner wants to automate a process and in that action eliminate jobs that living employees can do...

…too bad for the employee, there is no such thing as a "right" to a job.

[Captain Obvious]

If a business owner wants to automate a process and in that action eliminate jobs that living employees can do...

…too bad for the employee, there is no such thing as a "right" to a job.

Good luck selling those products to people without jobs

[Just AnotherPerson]

Perhaps we do need automation at some level. Automation for jobs that most people do not want to do unless desperate. The US, and Mexico are both expereincing worker shortages perhaps automation would help.

The Corporations are now getting their money from fat gov contracts, and subsidies, not just from consumers. Production has outstripped demand, and capability.

One thing is that if we go too far with automation, then there will not be enough jobs, and we will become a socialist nation.

On top of that we have to consider that we are running out of resources and we are stripping the earth, she will not just keep producing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/the-...cal-point.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/the-us-labor-shortage-is-reaching-a-critical-point.html)


Too many jobs not enough workers
https://www.washingtonpost.com/


American businesses cant find workers
https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/17/new...age/index.html (https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/17/news/economy/us-worker-shortage/index.html)

Britain
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/03/c_137717521.htm

Japan
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/construction-robots-weld-bolt-lift-to-beat-worker-shortage/article_f4595350-c2a1-5496-a4a6-4a641851a080.html

Mexico
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2018/11/06/Mexican-state-says-migrant-caravan-can-help-with-worker-shortage/4031541522411/

China

https://youtu.be/wKdmqY_ZAwA

[Chris]

Good luck selling those products to people without jobs


Right, but that is the socialist dream of a post-scarcity society. Are you saying that doesn't work?

[Chris]

Perhaps we do need automation at some level. Automation for jobs that most people do not want to do unless desperate. The US, and Mexico are both expereincing worker shortages perhaps automation would help.

The Corporations are now getting their money from fat gov contracts, and subsidies, not just from consumers. Production has outstripped demand, and capability.

One thing is that if we go too far with automation, then there will not be enough jobs, and we will become a socialist nation.

On top of that we have to consider that we are running out of resources and we are stripping the earth, she will not just keep producing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/the-...cal-point.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/the-us-labor-shortage-is-reaching-a-critical-point.html)


Too many jobs not enough workers
https://www.washingtonpost.com/


American businesses cant find workers
https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/17/new...age/index.html (https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/17/news/economy/us-worker-shortage/index.html)

Britain
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-01/03/c_137717521.htm

Japan
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/construction-robots-weld-bolt-lift-to-beat-worker-shortage/article_f4595350-c2a1-5496-a4a6-4a641851a080.html

Mexico
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2018/11/06/Mexican-state-says-migrant-caravan-can-help-with-worker-shortage/4031541522411/

China

https://youtu.be/wKdmqY_ZAwA




...we will become a socialist nation...

Isn't that what you want?

[Captain Obvious]

Right, but that is the socialist dream of a post-scarcity society. Are you saying that doesn't work?

No, I'm saying good luck selling those products to people without jobs.

Not sure what was unclear about that.

[Chris]

No, I'm saying good luck selling those products to people without jobs.

Not sure what was unclear about that.

And that, to repeat, is the socialist dream of a post-scarcity society.

Not sure what was unclear about that.

[Captain Obvious]

And that, to repeat, is the socialist dream of a post-scarcity society.

Not sure what was unclear about that.

It was very clear, and not what I said as you asked.

You're welcome.

[Chris]

It was very clear, and not what I said as you asked.

You're welcome.

OK, Cliff.

[Captain Obvious]

OK, Cliff.
No worries, derp

[Just AnotherPerson]

Isn't that what you want?

Read my reply again. You are constantly twisting peoples words. I said we should have limited automation or it will lead to socialism. Read it again and get back. What childish tactics you use for arguments.

[Captain Obvious]

Read my reply again. You are constantly twisting peoples words. I said we should have limited automation or it will lead to socialism. Read it again and get back. What childish tactics you use for arguments.

Well yeah, that's exactly what he's doing. Telling you you didn't say so he can argue it endlessly.

Just smile and waive, he'll go pester someone else with his projecting.

[Sergeant Gleed]

No, I'm saying good luck selling those products to people without jobs.

Not sure what was unclear about that.

I guess they'll just have to sell the products to the people who have jobs, then.

And if people still want to buy stuff, they'll have to learn other skills that make them employable again.

Boy, life can get so complicated, can't it?

[Captain Obvious]

I guess they'll just have to sell the products to the people who have jobs, then.

And if people still want to buy stuff, they'll have to learn other skills that make them employable again.

Boy, life can get so complicated, can't it?

Well, considering we're approaching zero unemployment and labor is at a demand, where do you think these people who's jobs are being displaced by automation are going to get jobs?

Maybe they can climb over the wall into Mexico and find work there.

Thanks for proving that life is harder when you're stupid.

[Chris]

Read my reply again. You are constantly twisting peoples words. I said we should have limited automation or it will lead to socialism. Read it again and get back. What childish tactics you use for arguments.

I read you constant anti-capitalist screeds and can only assume you must be a socialist. If not, what then? You can get defensive and pretend offense all you want, but eventually, you ought to stop saying what you're against and stand up for what you believe in. It was a simple question.

[Chris]

Well yeah, that's exactly what he's doing. Telling you you didn't say so he can argue it endlessly.

Just smile and waive, he'll go pester someone else with his projecting.


So you've managed to shit on yet another thread.

[Chris]

Well, considering we're approaching zero unemployment and labor is at a demand, where do you think these people who's jobs are being displaced by automation are going to get jobs?

Maybe they can climb over the wall into Mexico and find work there.

Thanks for proving that life is harder when you're stupid.


And once you start you can't stop shitting on a thread, can you, Cliff?

[zachroidott]

I guess they'll just have to sell the products to the people who have jobs, then.

And if people still want to buy stuff, they'll have to learn other skills that make them employable again.

Boy, life can get so complicated, can't it?
Or it can be dumb fuck simple.

[Captain Obvious]

And once you start you can't stop shitting on a thread, can you, Cliff?
There's a youtube video for that.

And a chart probably.

[zachroidott]

And that, to repeat, is the socialist dream of a post-scarcity society.

Not sure what was unclear about that.
What if it's not a socialist dream, and just a plausible outcome?

[Mister D]

There's a youtube video for that.

And a chart probably.

I'm sure JAP posted the video at some point. Lol

[zachroidott]

I'm sure JAP posted the video at some point. Lol

JAP posted your height? Lol

[Chris]

There's a youtube video for that.

And a chart probably.


No, there's you. Doing exactly what you criticize others for. It's almost self-parody.

[Chris]

What if it's not a socialist dream, and just a plausible outcome?

A post-scarcity society is not possible. Automation increases productivity, productivity creates jobs, production drives demand, one of the oldest laws in economics. It is what socialism dreams of (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, and Marx did promise greater productivity), but what capitalism creates.

Whether that's sustainable, or even good, is another question.

[Mister D]

A post-scarcity society is not possible. Automation increases productivity, productivity creates jobs, production drives demand, one of the oldest laws in economics. It is what socialism dreams of (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, and Marx did promise greater productivity), but what capitalism creates.

Whether that's sustainable, or even good, is another question.

Agreed. That is the only question.

[donttread]

Automation results in higher productivity which creates more jobs. Been true since man invented the wheel, flints, spears, etc.


Actually H&G societies were pretty population staple so where did they get more "employees" and what would they do with more food than they could eat? Even now paper mill employment is down in this country, in part due to automatization.
The main point however is shouldn't automatization produce more free time? And if not why support it?
What's the benefit for the worker? A little less physicality in their job so now they have to find time and money for a gym? The super rich need to throw out a few more crumbs or it will eventually get ugly.

[donttread]

Yep. Automation has always resulted in increased productivity. As an example, we no longer use one-half of our people to farm to feed all of us.

So what do we use them for?

[donttread]

A couple more thoughts here is that the jobs automatization creates are essentially jobs of the fluff economy. Work out gyms for people who no longer "work" for a living for example. Labor directed away from farming to manufacturing remote controls and gag gifts. The stuff that goes away instantly when the shit hits the fan.
Automatization certainly does not always improve quality, look at our factory farms and cheap knock offs or real craftsmanship , like our pressboard entertainment centers.

[Peter1469]

A post-scarcity society is not possible. Automation increases productivity, productivity creates jobs, production drives demand, one of the oldest laws in economics. It is what socialism dreams of (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, and Marx did promise greater productivity), but what capitalism creates.

Whether that's sustainable, or even good, is another question.
A post-scarcity society is inevitable. Just not in any of our lifetimes. Science isn't going to stop advancing.

[Peter1469]

Actually H&G societies were pretty population staple so where did they get more "employees" and what would they do with more food than they could eat? Even now paper mill employment is down in this country, in part due to automatization.
The main point however is shouldn't automatization produce more free time? And if not why support it?
What's the benefit for the worker? A little less physicality in their job so now they have to find time and money for a gym? The super rich need to throw out a few more crumbs or it will eventually get ugly.
Hunter gathering societies were all conquered by others.

[Peter1469]

A couple more thoughts here is that the jobs automatization creates are essentially jobs of the fluff economy. Work out gyms for people who no longer "work" for a living for example. Labor directed away from farming to manufacturing remote controls and gag gifts. The stuff that goes away instantly when the shit hits the fan.
Automatization certainly does not always improve quality, look at our factory farms and cheap knock offs or real craftsmanship , like our pressboard entertainment centers.
What is fluff about owning a gym? Fit people cost less for medical expenses. I think you need to rethink what value is in light of the increase in use of robotics and automation.

Pedro is going to have to not only get an education, but pay attention in school- because Pedro is not going to be picking produce any longer.

[Dr. Who]

A couple more thoughts here is that the jobs automatization creates are essentially jobs of the fluff economy. Work out gyms for people who no longer "work" for a living for example. Labor directed away from farming to manufacturing remote controls and gag gifts. The stuff that goes away instantly when the shit hits the fan.
Automatization certainly does not always improve quality, look at our factory farms and cheap knock offs or real craftsmanship , like our pressboard entertainment centers.
Unfortunately, there is a market for crap. People, for the most part, don't want or appreciate things that don't eventually fall apart. It allows them to keep buying new things which they are persuaded that they need because anything that is older is no longer fashionable. Have you ever watched those home buying shows? Young couples are always going into homes and if the kitchen and bathrooms are not newly renovated, regardless of how serviceable they happen to be, they can't even move in without gutting them first. People don't want to pay the cost of food from old-fashioned family farms.

Businesses are forced to automate because their competition is automating. Those who don't follow suit soon find themselves in bankruptcy or sold to the highest bidder. Big corporations are leading the pack in that respect. Little guys must follow suit or they get out-competed on price and it's not just manufacturing, it's everything.

[Chris]

Agreed. That is the only question.

I agree. But you need to get to the question before asking it. You have to get past superficial finger pointing it's capitalism it's socialism when they are both rooted in the same enlightened ideology and they both lead to the same materialistic end.

[Peter1469]

Unfortunately, there is a market for crap. People, for the most part, don't want or appreciate things that don't eventually fall apart. It allows them to keep buying new things which they are persuaded that they need because anything that is older is no longer fashionable. Have you ever watched those home buying shows? Young couples are always going into homes and if the kitchen and bathrooms are not newly renovated, regardless of how serviceable they happen to be, they can't even move in without gutting them first. People don't want to pay the cost of food from old-fashioned family farms.

Businesses are forced to automate because their competition is automating. Those who don't follow suit soon find themselves in bankruptcy or sold to the highest bidder. Big corporations are leading the pack in that respect. Little guys must follow suit or they get out-competed on price and it's not just manufacturing, it's everything.
Some things don't need to last for decades. How many people will wear the same suit for two decades, even if it looks fine (I do, I don't think most do).

[Chris]

Actually H&G societies were pretty population staple so where did they get more "employees" and what would they do with more food than they could eat? Even now paper mill employment is down in this country, in part due to automatization.
The main point however is shouldn't automatization produce more free time? And if not why support it?
What's the benefit for the worker? A little less physicality in their job so now they have to find time and money for a gym? The super rich need to throw out a few more crumbs or it will eventually get ugly.

For the basic reason H&G societies were not sedentary but in times of scarcity could more on to new grounds.

[Chris]

Hunter gathering societies were all conquered by others.

There are still many not captured and agriculturalist who still resist the state.

[donttread]

A post-scarcity society is not possible. Automation increases productivity, productivity creates jobs, production drives demand, one of the oldest laws in economics. It is what socialism dreams of (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, and Marx did promise greater productivity), but what capitalism creates.

Whether that's sustainable, or even good, is another question.


Production only drives demand in the fluff vs. real economy. And when the shit hits the fan the fluff economy is poof gone. As nation advance less of their economy is based on staples and therefore they become vulnerable to collapse, like every empire ever known.

[Chris]

A post-scarcity society is inevitable. Just not in any of our lifetimes. Science isn't going to stop advancing.


I guess I just don't see that as sustainable, for the very reason this started at, no one will work, there will be no one to consume what's produced. Therefore, production cannot increase endlessly.

[Peter1469]

There are still many not captured and agriculturalist who still resist the state.

Not enough to challenge a state.

[Peter1469]

I guess I just don't see that as sustainable, for the very reason this started at, no one will work, there will be no one to consume what's produced. Therefore, production cannot increase endlessly.

Things will still need to be done.

[Chris]

Production only drives demand in the fluff vs. real economy. And when the shit hits the fan the fluff economy is poof gone. As nation advance less of their economy is based on staples and therefore they become vulnerable to collapse, like every empire ever known.

Production drive demand in the sense that those who demand must first produce, iow, exchange their labor for the means to demand anything. Demand drives production only in the Garden of Eden.

[Chris]

Things will still need to be done.

Exactly, because if you don't produce you create scarcity.

[Chris]

Not enough to challenge a state.

Correct. For the most part such societies do all they can to distance themselves from the reach of the state.

[Dr. Who]

Some things don't need to last for decades. How many people will wear the same suit for two decades, even if it looks fine (I do, I don't think most do).
You might however, expect to keep your furniture a little longer than a pair of boots.

[Peter1469]

Exactly, because if you don't produce you create scarcity.

No. If you have the ability to create objects, food, water, etc for almost nothing, people are still needed to do all sorts of things.

[Peter1469]

You might however, expect to keep your furniture a little longer than a pair of boots.
Most of my furniture is wood, nice, and will outlast me. My suits will outlast me too. At least most of them. I do have a couple of cheap ones. :smiley:

[Dr. Who]

Most of my furniture is wood, nice, and will outlast me. My suits will outlast me too. At least most of them. I do have a couple of cheap ones. :smiley:
I tend to buy quality items that will last but many people don't know the difference and probably don't care, which is what encourages the rampant mass production of inferior goods.

[Peter1469]

I tend to buy quality items that will last but many people don't know the difference and probably don't care, which is what encourages the rampant mass production of inferior goods.
Or they think a $200 book shelf is a great deal. But when they put it together and the shelves bow under the weight of their books they are disappointed.

[Dr. Who]

Or they think a $200 book shelf is a great deal. But when they put it together and the shelves bow under the weight of their books they are disappointed.
Exactly. People should go to antique shops and look how furniture used to be constructed and what was used in its construction. Then they should compare it to those supposed great deals. They should also learn just what particle board is and what happens to it if it gets wet. A friend of mine found out the hard way about particle board when her apartment was flooded by a broken pipe in the unit above her. Her bedroom furniture was nice looking but particle board. Everything touching the floor absorbed water, swelled and released urea formaldehyde gas. Ironically, before that happened I had been telling her about the shortcomings of particle board and how toxic it is when wet. She wasted no time getting it removed from her apartment - she was choking on the fumes.

[MisterVeritis]

Actually H&G societies were pretty population staple so where did they get more "employees" and what would they do with more food than they could eat? Even now paper mill employment is down in this country, in part due to automatization.
The main point however is shouldn't automatization produce more free time? And if not why support it?
What's the benefit for the worker? A little less physicality in their job so now they have to find time and money for a gym? The super rich need to throw out a few more crumbs or it will eventually get ugly.
What a goof ball.

[MisterVeritis]

Yep. Automation has always resulted in increased productivity. As an example, we no longer use one-half of our people to farm to feed all of us.

So what do we use them for?

"We" don't use them for anything.

Think hard. Is there anything you know?

[Chris]

No. If you have the ability to create objects, food, water, etc for almost nothing, people are still needed to do all sorts of things.

I think we're saying the same thing.

Scarcity comes in how you allocate resources, well, actually, even in how you allocate time and effort at creating resources, and then how you use them as inputs to production. I cut down a tree and can now cut it up for firewood, saw it up for boards, pulp it up into paper, its uses are limited. My time and effort is limited.

[Chris]

Yep. Automation has always resulted in increased productivity. As an example, we no longer use one-half of our people to farm to feed all of us.


"We" don't use them for anything.

Think hard. Is there anything you know?


They do other things. There aren't all that many small independent farms nowadays anyhow, agriculture is big business now. Those farmers didn't just lay down and die.

[MisterVeritis]

They do other things. There aren't all that many small independent farms nowadays anyhow, agriculture is big business now. Those farmers didn't just lay down and die.
Once they have seen the big city it is hard to keep them down on the farm. One percent of the population can produce more than 50% used to. There is always something more we can be doing with our time.