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Just AnotherPerson
03-23-2019, 02:27 AM
Oh great........

See more at the link https://nypost.com/2019/03/22/pompeo-trump-may-have-been-sent-by-god-to-save-jews/

Excerpt:


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said during an interview that President Trump may have been sent by God to help save Jewish people from Iran.

Pompeo told the Christian Broadcasting Network (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2019/march/exclusive-secretary-of-state-pompeo-to-news-god-raised-up-trump-like-he-raised-up-queen-esther) on Thursday that it’s “possible” President Trump was raised to defend the Jewish people, just like Queen Esther from the Bible.

roadmaster
03-23-2019, 03:50 AM
They are twisting the Bible. Jehoshaphat made the big mistake siding with those who deny Christ.

roadmaster
03-23-2019, 03:54 AM
Jap if you were a believer and knew Jesus said in order to call yourself a Jew you must worship God in spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, have no confidence in the flesh and people kept calling others that don't believe in Christ Jews how would you take it.

roadmaster
03-23-2019, 03:56 AM
If you get it you will understand why I don't like most rights who claim to be Christian.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 04:00 AM
They are twisting the Bible. Jehoshaphat made the big mistake siding with those who deny Christ.

Jehoshaphat sided with people who denied Christ? LOL. Jehoshaphat lived 850 years before Christ. You are saying that Jehoshaphat sided with people who were denying someone who hadn't been born yet? If you are a Christian, I assume you follow the teachings of Christ. His teachings are found in the first 4 books of the New Testament. Nowhere else in the bible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehoshaphat

Just AnotherPerson
03-23-2019, 04:07 AM
If you get it you will understand why I don't like most rights who claim to be Christian.
I can understand clearly what you are saying. But if it was me and my religion I wouldn't take it personal honestly. I feel all are free to choose how to believe. Do I think the Christians are misguided on this issue? Yes. But I wont loose sleep over it.

But my beef is not with the Jewish people not at all. Just like my beef with Saudi Arabia, is not with the people of SA. It is with their governments. My beef is corporate corruption. I have no beef with the people of any nation all are equal in my eyes.

But Pompeo's comment was mentally ill, and dangerous, because they are going to run our nation, on those kinds of mentally ill beliefs.

roadmaster
03-23-2019, 04:10 AM
I can understand clearly what you are saying. But if it was me and my religion I wouldn't take it personal honestly. I feel all are free to choose how to believe. Do I think the Christians are misguided on this issue? Yes. But I wont loose sleep over it.

But my beef is not with the Jewish people not at all. Just like my beef with Saudi Arabia, is not with the people of SA. It is with their governments. My beef is corporate corruption. I have no beef with the people of any nation all are equal in my eyes.

But Pompeo's comment was mentally ill, and dangerous, because they are going to run our nation, on those kinds of mentally ill beliefs.

I understand you don't believe but thank you for at least getting what I am saying. My beef has always been with the ones who profess Christ and don't believe Him.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 04:18 AM
Oh great........

See more at the link https://nypost.com/2019/03/22/pompeo-trump-may-have-been-sent-by-god-to-save-jews/

Excerpt:


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said during an interview that President Trump may have been sent by God to help save Jewish people from Iran.

Pompeo told the Christian Broadcasting Network (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2019/march/exclusive-secretary-of-state-pompeo-to-news-god-raised-up-trump-like-he-raised-up-queen-esther) on Thursday that it’s “possible” President Trump was raised to defend the Jewish people, just like Queen Esther from the Bible.


Great. Our national foreign policy is now based on the pretext that Trump was sent by God to protect Israel. This is dumber than "manifest destiny". Except now, instead of american indian genocide, it will be paelstinian, syrian, iranian, etc.
This is exactly proof that God never created an intelligence higher than swamp-dwelling parasites. And it is this lack of intelligence in the world that has made me understand that God is nothing more than a fairy tale. The promise of heavenly reward and the threat of fiery hell are nothing more than threats used by morons in positions of authority and power, over their poeple, who are even stupider than they are. Great.

Common
03-23-2019, 04:44 AM
Why not it was based on policy sent by Allah for 8 yrs, you didnt mind that

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 05:09 AM
Why not it was based on policy sent by Allah for 8 yrs, you didnt mind that

I assume this was for me:) I did think about this further. I am not surprised that with all of Trump's new regime change, he has set his sights on the ultimate regime change, replacing God himself. Making heaven great again. He will adopt Jesus as his son to legitimize his claim, and have it approved by the same 50 members of the UN that always vote however we tell them to. He will build a proper wall to keep the muslims out of heaven, and replace Peter at the gate with Mike Pence. No Mexicans allowed, either. Not even Puerto Ricans. And all the people that do get into heaven will only be allowed to toss rolls of paper towels over the wall to the Puerto Ricans when Trump sends them another hurricane.
And you cannot blame this on Obama or Trump alone. Funding Al Qaeda through the CIA shell companies and orchestrating their moves and behavior through backdoor channels at the State Department, then pointing at them as the "boogeyman", in an effort to drum up public sentiment for expanding the corporations in the military industrial complex, as been going on since Bush and Cheney.
And theirs was merely a play on the previous administration's versions of this same nonsense.
Obama is a christian. Even if he was faking it, at least he was religious. Trump is faking being a christian, and he is not religious at all. Which explains his beliefs in things we think of as abominations, like racism and rape. Don't worry, as soon as his coup on God is completed, he will rewrite the 10 commandments and all played-out ex-pornstars will find everlasting glory in heaven.

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 07:59 AM
Great. Our national foreign policy is now based on the pretext that Trump was sent by God to protect Israel. This is dumber than "manifest destiny". Except now, instead of american indian genocide, it will be paelstinian, syrian, iranian, etc.
This is exactly proof that God never created an intelligence higher than swamp-dwelling parasites. And it is this lack of intelligence in the world that has made me understand that God is nothing more than a fairy tale. The promise of heavenly reward and the threat of fiery hell are nothing more than threats used by morons in positions of authority and power, over their poeple, who are even stupider than they are. Great.
Manifest destiny created the greatest nation on earth. Don't knock it. (Unless you are a native American of course- then you would be a subjugated person.)

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 07:59 AM
I assume this was for me:) I did think about this further. I am not surprised that with all of Trump's new regime change, he has set his sights on the ultimate regime change, replacing God himself. Making heaven great again. He will adopt Jesus as his son to legitimize his claim, and have it approved by the same 50 members of the UN that always vote however we tell them to. He will build a proper wall to keep the muslims out of heaven, and replace Peter at the gate with Mike Pence. No Mexicans allowed, either. Not even Puerto Ricans. And all the people that do get into heaven will only be allowed to toss rolls of paper towels over the wall to the Puerto Ricans when Trump sends them another hurricane.
And you cannot blame this on Obama or Trump alone. Funding Al Qaeda through the CIA shell companies and orchestrating their moves and behavior through backdoor channels at the State Department, then pointing at them as the "boogeyman", in an effort to drum up public sentiment for expanding the corporations in the military industrial complex, as been going on since Bush and Cheney.
And theirs was merely a play on the previous administration's versions of this same nonsense.
Obama is a christian. Even if he was faking it, at least he was religious. Trump is faking being a christian, and he is not religious at all. Which explains his beliefs in things we think of as abominations, like racism and rape. Don't worry, as soon as his coup on God is completed, he will rewrite the 10 commandments and all played-out ex-pornstars will find everlasting glory in heaven.
To steal a quote from another member: this is kook stuff.

Just AnotherPerson
03-23-2019, 08:29 AM
I assume this was for me:) I did think about this further. I am not surprised that with all of Trump's new regime change, he has set his sights on the ultimate regime change, replacing God himself. Making heaven great again. He will adopt Jesus as his son to legitimize his claim, and have it approved by the same 50 members of the UN that always vote however we tell them to. He will build a proper wall to keep the muslims out of heaven, and replace Peter at the gate with Mike Pence. No Mexicans allowed, either. Not even Puerto Ricans. And all the people that do get into heaven will only be allowed to toss rolls of paper towels over the wall to the Puerto Ricans when Trump sends them another hurricane.
And you cannot blame this on Obama or Trump alone. Funding Al Qaeda through the CIA shell companies and orchestrating their moves and behavior through backdoor channels at the State Department, then pointing at them as the "boogeyman", in an effort to drum up public sentiment for expanding the corporations in the military industrial complex, as been going on since Bush and Cheney.
And theirs was merely a play on the previous administration's versions of this same nonsense.
Obama is a christian. Even if he was faking it, at least he was religious. Trump is faking being a christian, and he is not religious at all. Which explains his beliefs in things we think of as abominations, like racism and rape. Don't worry, as soon as his coup on God is completed, he will rewrite the 10 commandments and all played-out ex-pornstars will find everlasting glory in heaven.

This was definitely a gold star reply!! Well said. Pence at the gates, LoL.
Now that is great satire. If he could do it, he would.

25651

Just AnotherPerson
03-23-2019, 08:34 AM
Manifest destiny created the greatest nation on earth. Don't knock it. (Unless you are a native American of course- then you would be a subjugated person.)
Manifest Destiny is mental illness in the extreme.

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 08:39 AM
Manifest Destiny is mental illness in the extreme.
We disagree. :wink:

alexa
03-23-2019, 08:43 AM
Pompeo wants to replace Pence as the official Trump high colonic.

FindersKeepers
03-23-2019, 09:30 AM
Manifest Destiny is mental illness in the extreme.

It's less mental illness and more mass manipulation, I believe.

Not being religious, I don't believe this nation was destined by God to be a Christian nation or to expand as it did. I do, however, think that those who believed in Manifest Destiny drove the expansion.

Give someone a cause they can get behind and you'll get them to do your bidding. Link that cause to the Creator, and you'll get them to die for it.

But, Manifest Destiny was just a name given to a very common form of expansion and conquer. And, from a success standpoint, it succeeded famously. When we look back at history, we see the vast majority of actions that led to taking lands were based on a belief that the Creator of the day approved.


Edited to add -- this is an amazing nation and many people did things correctly in order for us to have what we have today. And, I thank them.

FindersKeepers
03-23-2019, 09:31 AM
Pompeo wants to replace Pence as the official Trump high colonic.

Dang, I'm sorry.

I know you had your heart set on that job.

Lummy
03-23-2019, 09:49 AM
Not being religious, I don't believe this nation was destined by God to be a Christian nation or to expand as it did.

Many Asians, Africans and Middle Easterners would agree with that. Wouldn't you say, JaPerson?

Orion Rules
03-23-2019, 11:21 AM
Oh great........

See more at the link https://nypost.com/2019/03/22/pompeo-trump-may-have-been-sent-by-god-to-save-jews/

Excerpt:


Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said during an interview that President Trump may have been sent by God to help save Jewish people from Iran.

Pompeo told the Christian Broadcasting Network (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/2019/march/exclusive-secretary-of-state-pompeo-to-news-god-raised-up-trump-like-he-raised-up-queen-esther) on Thursday that it’s “possible” President Trump was raised to defend the Jewish people, just like Queen Esther from the Bible.

If anything, this proposal invites more war, not less, from any of those quarters inside the Middle East who will see nothing right with this plan. But it must be "God's will" they go to war over energy and its evaluations. Oil-for-war is the Golan Heights is such of war's' plans.

1. Twitter account for Partisangirl:

https://twitter.com/Partisangirl?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eser p%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


2."The Truth about Syria's #GolanHeights and #GenieEnergy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=8clMNOmX_kk


3. If the Judeo-Christian ethic exists, it must roll the spin again. Oil for war, is that a religion? The Golan Heights belongs to Syria, as I.S.I.S. has been the enemy, not Prince Bashar al-Assad, as, also, the Biblical promise is not to Israel, but to Abram:

Promises to Abram

Genesis 12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

The Xl
03-23-2019, 11:40 AM
Religious kookery has no place in government.

Safety
03-23-2019, 11:45 AM
I assume this was for me:) I did think about this further. I am not surprised that with all of Trump's new regime change, he has set his sights on the ultimate regime change, replacing God himself. Making heaven great again. He will adopt Jesus as his son to legitimize his claim, and have it approved by the same 50 members of the UN that always vote however we tell them to. He will build a proper wall to keep the muslims out of heaven, and replace Peter at the gate with Mike Pence. No Mexicans allowed, either. Not even Puerto Ricans. And all the people that do get into heaven will only be allowed to toss rolls of paper towels over the wall to the Puerto Ricans when Trump sends them another hurricane.
And you cannot blame this on Obama or Trump alone. Funding Al Qaeda through the CIA shell companies and orchestrating their moves and behavior through backdoor channels at the State Department, then pointing at them as the "boogeyman", in an effort to drum up public sentiment for expanding the corporations in the military industrial complex, as been going on since Bush and Cheney.
And theirs was merely a play on the previous administration's versions of this same nonsense.
Obama is a christian. Even if he was faking it, at least he was religious. Trump is faking being a christian, and he is not religious at all. Which explains his beliefs in things we think of as abominations, like racism and rape. Don't worry, as soon as his coup on God is completed, he will rewrite the 10 commandments and all played-out ex-pornstars will find everlasting glory in heaven.

Damn, that will leave a mark.

Captdon
03-23-2019, 11:56 AM
I assume this was for me:) I did think about this further. I am not surprised that with all of Trump's new regime change, he has set his sights on the ultimate regime change, replacing God himself. Making heaven great again. He will adopt Jesus as his son to legitimize his claim, and have it approved by the same 50 members of the UN that always vote however we tell them to. He will build a proper wall to keep the muslims out of heaven, and replace Peter at the gate with Mike Pence. No Mexicans allowed, either. Not even Puerto Ricans. And all the people that do get into heaven will only be allowed to toss rolls of paper towels over the wall to the Puerto Ricans when Trump sends them another hurricane.
And you cannot blame this on Obama or Trump alone. Funding Al Qaeda through the CIA shell companies and orchestrating their moves and behavior through backdoor channels at the State Department, then pointing at them as the "boogeyman", in an effort to drum up public sentiment for expanding the corporations in the military industrial complex, as been going on since Bush and Cheney.
And theirs was merely a play on the previous administration's versions of this same nonsense.
Obama is a christian. Even if he was faking it, at least he was religious. Trump is faking being a christian, and he is not religious at all. Which explains his beliefs in things we think of as abominations, like racism and rape. Don't worry, as soon as his coup on God is completed, he will rewrite the 10 commandments and all played-out ex-pornstars will find everlasting glory in heaven.

God has left the building. He gave us free will and that's the end of the story.

Captdon
03-23-2019, 11:58 AM
Manifest destiny created the greatest nation on earth. Don't knock it. (Unless you are a native American of course- then you would be a subjugated person.)

My wife says she doesn't feel subjugated unless there's money in it.

Captdon
03-23-2019, 12:00 PM
Manifest Destiny is mental illness in the extreme.

No, it isn't. They couldn't hold the land.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 05:16 PM
Manifest destiny created the greatest nation on earth. Don't knock it. (Unless you are a native American of course- then you would be a subjugated person.)
One day, reality will sink in, and you will realize the US is not the greatest nation on earth. Our people are awesome for the most part, no question. But our government is corrupt and we are only number 1 in things we should not be proud of. For the things that count, like education levels, health care, etc., we are lucky to be in the top 30.
Part of that manifest destiny was also taking 1/2 of Mexico by force. It wasn't just the Indians.
Any time a people up and decide that God wants them to be monsters for his glory, or to fulfil prophecies, or any of that nonsense, you can be sure a genocide will follow.

Sergeant Gleed
03-23-2019, 05:23 PM
Reality sets in.

Not only I'd the United States the greatest nation on earth, it's the greatest nation to ever exist.

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 05:29 PM
One day, reality will sink in, and you will realize the US is not the greatest nation on earth. Our people are awesome for the most part, no question. But our government is corrupt and we are only number 1 in things we should not be proud of. For the things that count, like education levels, health care, etc., we are lucky to be in the top 30.
Part of that manifest destiny was also taking 1/2 of Mexico by force. It wasn't just the Indians.
Any time a people up and decide that God wants them to be monsters for his glory, or to fulfil prophecies, or any of that nonsense, you can be sure a genocide will follow.
Too bad for you America is the best.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 05:32 PM
God has left the building. He gave us free will and that's the end of the story.

There was never a God to begin with. And I'm not so sure I believe in free will.

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 05:33 PM
There was never a God to begin with. And I'm not so sure I believe in free will.
Your will is dictated by something?

Mister D
03-23-2019, 05:36 PM
There was never a God to begin with. And I'm not so sure I believe in free will.
Then your moralizing is all kind of silly and doubly so in the absence of free will. How do you reconcile these obvious contradictions in your mind? Do you even recognize them?

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 05:53 PM
Your will is dictated by something?

Yes. My conditioning. Conditioning does change over time, but we seem to be trapped by it none the less. When it comes to our egos, we are not that sophisticated.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 06:22 PM
Then your moralizing is all kind of silly and doubly so in the absence of free will. How do you reconcile these obvious contradictions in your mind? Do you even recognize them?
How so? I am a conditioned human being. Whenever I learn something new, it becomes a part of me. Whenever I hear something that rings of the truth, it becomes a part of me.
My moralizing, as you call it, is nothing more than me thinking rationally without myself as the center pivot. If something I say rings true, it would become your new conditioning. Then, any future actions you take will be made from that conditioning as well.
So even though we are predictable creatures who might not be as free-willed as we'd like, education and "moralizing" is even more important, because it will affect the future actions of more than just myself.
This reminds me of the argument that an atheist cannot be moral. Many would call a moral atheist a hypocrite too. But when a person is able to see the world through other's eyes, from their perspective, the outcome is morality. And it is a certain morality.
Religions have rules and penalties, and so does our society. We are told we should not kill or steal. There are penalties if we do, and those penalties are supposed to be enough to dissuade us from doing harm to each other, and to maintain a reasonably safe society for everyone.
But if someone can take other's perceptions and concerns into account, they stop being self-centered, and they tend to do to others as they would have done to themselves. They are not being moral to be pleasant, or because they will get in trouble, but because that is the only way they can behave. They are naturally moral, and the force of conviction in that morality is as certain as the sky is blue.
Atheist's can be moral without hypocrisy, and spreading morality can equally be done in the absence of free will without hypocrisy.

Orion Rules
03-23-2019, 06:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEPKIulCEhQ

"Symphony of Destruction"

You take a mortal man
And put him in control
Watch him become a god
Watch people's heads a'roll
A'roll, a' roll

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony
Of destruction

Acting like a robot
Its metal brain corrodes
You try to take its pulse
Before the head explodes
Explodes, explodes

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony
Swaying to the symphony
Of destruction

The earth starts to rumble
World powers fall
A'warring for the heavens
A peaceful man stands tall
Tall, tall

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to the symphony
Swaying to the symphony
Of destruction

Mister D
03-23-2019, 06:36 PM
How so? I am a conditioned human being. Whenever I learn something new, it becomes a part of me. Whenever I hear something that rings of the truth, it becomes a part of me.
My moralizing, as you call it, is nothing more than me thinking rationally without myself as the center pivot. If something I say rings true, it would become your new conditioning. Then, any future actions you take will be made from that conditioning as well. So even though we are predictable creatures who might not be as free-willed as we'd like, education and "moralizing" is even more important, because it will affect the future actions of more than just myself.

Honestly, I don't mean to be rude or dismissive but...what?

Now to the meat and potatoes...


This reminds me of the argument that an atheist cannot be moral. Many would call a moral atheist a hypocrite too. But when a person is able to see the world through other's eyes, from their perspective, the outcome is morality. And it is a certain morality.

Of course atheists can be moral. The problem only surfaces if atheists are actually right. Then they can't be moral. Neither can I. Morality is nonsense.

Religions have rules and penalties, and so does our society. We are told we should not kill or steal. There are penalties if we do, and those penalties are supposed to be enough to dissuade us from doing harm to each other, and to maintain a reasonably safe society for everyone.


Religions justify their "rules and regulations" by reference to transcendent truths. Our society does not. Our society is afraid to.

But if someone can take other's perceptions and concerns into account, they stop being self-centered, and they tend to do to others as they would have done to themselves. They are not being moral to be pleasant, or because they will get in trouble, but because that is the only way they can behave. They are naturally moral, and the force of conviction in that morality is as certain as the sky is blue.
Atheist's can be moral without hypocrisy, and spreading morality can equally be done in the absence of free will without hypocrisy.



Morality is impossible in the absence of free will. Moral agency (the ability to decide between right and wrong) is a prerequisite. What can morality possibly mean in the atheist worldview? What could its foundation be?

Peter1469
03-23-2019, 06:50 PM
Yes. My conditioning. Conditioning does change over time, but we seem to be trapped by it none the less. When it comes to our egos, we are not that sophisticated.
Sounds like free will to me.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 07:10 PM
Honestly, I don't mean to be rude or dismissive but...what?

Now to the meat and potatoes...



Of course atheists can be moral. The problem only surfaces if atheists are actually right. Then they can't be moral. Neither can I. Morality is nonsense.


Religions justify their "rules and regulations" by reference to transcendent truths. Our society does not. Our society is afraid to.

Morality is impossible in the absence of free will. Moral agency (the ability to decide between right and wrong) is a prerequisite. What can morality possibly mean in the atheist worldview? What could its foundation be?

Wow. I thought I had a hard time explaining something complex. But I had an even harder time trying to understand what you were talking about.
There are 2 paths towards "moral agency", as you put it.
1.) The first is a religious or societal indoctrination. We are taught morality and are punished when we deviate from it. If we did have free will, this would put heavy restraints on it, as any violations would be met with pain, hell, or jail. Strangely, once indoctrinated, religious followers or members of society would think they had totally free will, and would fight back ferociously against any evidence to the contrary.
Look at our society, we can't call someone stupid, fag, or a Jew. But we profess freedom of speech. Someone indoctrinated through societal pressure would not use those words out of fear of reprisal.
2.) The second method of developing moral agency is when you see others and yourself as not different or separated. Then you naturally adopt the "golden rule". You don't kick someone because you don't want to be kicked yourself. You don't steal from others, because you don't want to have your thing stolen.
All major religions, at their core, rely upon someone's personal experience of seeing themselves and others as not separate. Therefore, all religions have this golden rule at their core too.
A person with this type of natural morality through insight and rational thinking would not call someone any of the previous names out of fear of punishment or hell, but because they simply would not like to be called names themselves.

As far as free will goes, without it we have things like "destiny", or "fate". With free will we have freedom. I am still on the fence about free will, leaning in the direction of no. To be truly free would be to rise beyond our conditioned responses and be totally spontaneous. There may be some people who have found that paradise. But for now, if someone yells at us, we get angry back. If someone hits us, we hit back. That is not free will, that is conditioned responses.

Orion Rules
03-23-2019, 07:19 PM
Honestly, I don't mean to be rude or dismissive but...what?

[...]

Of course atheists can be moral. The problem only surfaces if atheists are actually right. Then they can't be moral. Neither can I. Morality is nonsense.


Religions justify their "rules and regulations" by reference to transcendent truths. Our society does not. Our society is afraid to.

Morality is impossible in the absence of free will. Moral agency (the ability to decide between right and wrong) is a prerequisite. What can morality possibly mean in the atheist worldview? What could its foundation be?

You might be right, the claim that "morality is nonsense" might just be. If it is, everything that is considered to be "right" may be considered to be nonsense. As wrong is right, it is still all nonsense. Being left to to decide which con for America would be better than the other party, the right to vote for a person to be a President of any real substance, of, 'America's agenda is first, will pay attention better to it, than all the other front-runners of this office proclaim, when elected'.

The wrong of the "right" to vote for rogue agents of self-interest, of what they said they would do, to put America first, not place it back inside of the neocon agenda, as was the understanding of many nationalists. Only part of American society is afraid to look at it. Many see the truth as it is. Facing the facts of what was stated then, when another political puppet arose, and with it, evidence that using the voter base to elect another neocon to that same office was not was promised.

RadioGod
03-23-2019, 07:26 PM
Sounds like free will to me.

Conditioning and ego creation are not self-voluntary processes. We don't get to pick and chose ourselves. We think we live in a free society here in the US, too. When it is explained to us that we are, in fact, economic slaves supporting the billionaire class at every turn, we find it impossible to imagine and call it BS or kookery.
A sure sign of conditioning, and ideals that run contrary to free-will and self-determination, is when we are presented with facts, but decide to ignore them to maintain our state of beliefs. To our sense of self, change is the same as death. It's funny, really.

Mister D
03-23-2019, 08:23 PM
Wow. I thought I had a hard time explaining something complex. But I had an even harder time trying to understand what you were talking about.
There are 2 paths towards "moral agency", as you put it.
1.) The first is a religious or societal indoctrination. We are taught morality and are punished when we deviate from it. If we did have free will, this would put heavy restraints on it, as any violations would be met with pain, hell, or jail. Strangely, once indoctrinated, religious followers or members of society would think they had totally free will, and would fight back ferociously against any evidence to the contrary.
Look at our society, we can't call someone stupid, $#@!, or a Jew. But we profess freedom of speech. Someone indoctrinated through societal pressure would not use those words out of fear of reprisal.
2.) The second method of developing moral agency is when you see others and yourself as not different or separated. Then you naturally adopt the "golden rule". You don't kick someone because you don't want to be kicked yourself. You don't steal from others, because you don't want to have your thing stolen.
All major religions, at their core, rely upon someone's personal experience of seeing themselves and others as not separate. Therefore, all religions have this golden rule at their core too.
A person with this type of natural morality through insight and rational thinking would not call someone any of the previous names out of fear of punishment or hell, but because they simply would not like to be called names themselves.

As far as free will goes, without it we have things like "destiny", or "fate". With free will we have freedom. I am still on the fence about free will, leaning in the direction of no. To be truly free would be to rise beyond our conditioned responses and be totally spontaneous. There may be some people who have found that paradise. But for now, if someone yells at us, we get angry back. If someone hits us, we hit back. That is not free will, that is conditioned responses.

You're having difficulty because you're trying to explain something that doesn't make sense based on your own premises. Without free will there can be no moral agency because you are not free to decide. Secondly, if right and wrong refer to nothing real (which is necessarily the case in your atheist worldview) the whole discussion is pointless. We've eliminated our subject matter (morality). Do you understand that?

Peter1469
03-24-2019, 03:19 AM
Conditioning and ego creation are not self-voluntary processes. We don't get to pick and chose ourselves. We think we live in a free society here in the US, too. When it is explained to us that we are, in fact, economic slaves supporting the billionaire class at every turn, we find it impossible to imagine and call it BS or kookery.
A sure sign of conditioning, and ideals that run contrary to free-will and self-determination, is when we are presented with facts, but decide to ignore them to maintain our state of beliefs. To our sense of self, change is the same as death. It's funny, really.
It is kook stuff.

Just AnotherPerson
03-24-2019, 03:39 AM
You're having difficulty because you're trying to explain something that doesn't make sense based on your own premises. Without free will there can be no moral agency because you are not free to decide. Secondly, if right and wrong refer to nothing real (which is necessarily the case in your atheist worldview) the whole discussion is pointless. We've eliminated our subject matter (morality). Do you understand that?
Just because something is predestined does not mean it is not real. Imagine I am holding an apple in my hand. I am aware that the apple is made of separate parts, so it can have no individual self. It is made of sun, air, water, soil. The apple is made of non self elements. But just because it does not have a designation in ultimate reality, does not mean that it is not in your hand. It is still real.

If you prick your finger although your finger is made of non self elements, you will still feel pain.

You say you eliminated the subject matter. How can matter be eliminated? You can choose to see it in reality and drop your labels but that truth does not mean that the matter does not exist. Rather you are misunderstanding the fundamental issue at hand, and that is that ignorance comes from the mind. But no matter the ignorance of mind it does not hinder reality as it is.

Moral reality in a predestined world is the pain you feel when you prick your finger. It still exists. When you were conceived, you were a sperm and egg, you were a mass of information. Your make up was predestined. But when you were born and the air hurt your lungs, you still cried. Your dna and conditioning and nutriment pre determined exactly who you would turn out to be physically and mentally.

There is in turn nature and nurture, so your exposure to conditions out of your control shaped who you became. That was out of your control. But even though your young self even as a small child was shaped by things outside of your control, you still felt emotions. You still had ideas. Do you believe that just because a living being was predetermined that nothing is real? Do you believe that they will not have real emotions, or feel real pain or sorrow? That is a mistaken view of reality.

Captdon
03-24-2019, 11:40 AM
Conditioning and ego creation are not self-voluntary processes. We don't get to pick and chose ourselves. We think we live in a free society here in the US, too. When it is explained to us that we are, in fact, economic slaves supporting the billionaire class at every turn, we find it impossible to imagine and call it BS or kookery.
A sure sign of conditioning, and ideals that run contrary to free-will and self-determination, is when we are presented with facts, but decide to ignore them to maintain our state of beliefs. To our sense of self, change is the same as death. It's funny, really.

Free will isn't about anything but you. I choose not steal and it isn't because I don't want stole from. That makes no sense. I do and say and live the way I choose. That's free will. No one could condition me to move South when I was 50. No one chooses for me to not be anti-Semitic or a racist. I decided that on my own.

MisterVeritis
03-24-2019, 11:43 AM
To steal a quote from another member: this is kook stuff.
Why yes, yes it was.

Captdon
03-24-2019, 11:48 AM
Just because something is predestined does not mean it is not real. Imagine I am holding an apple in my hand. I am aware that the apple is made of separate parts, so it can have no individual self. It is made of sun, air, water, soil. The apple is made of non self elements. But just because it does not have a designation in ultimate reality, does not mean that it is not in your hand. It is still real.

If you $#@! your finger although your finger is made of non self elements, you will still feel pain.

You say you eliminated the subject matter. How can matter be eliminated? You can choose to see it in reality and drop your labels but that truth does not mean that the matter does not exist. Rather you are misunderstanding the fundamental issue at hand, and that is that ignorance comes from the mind. But no matter the ignorance of mind it does not hinder reality as it is.

Moral reality in a predestined world is the pain you feel when you $#@! your finger. It still exists. When you were conceived, you were a sperm and egg, you were a mass of information. Your make up was predestined. But when you were born and the air hurt your lungs, you still cried. Your dna and conditioning and nutriment pre determined exactly who you would turn out to be physically and mentally.

There is in turn nature and nurture, so your exposure to conditions out of your control shaped who you became. That was out of your control. But even though your young self even as a small child was shaped by things outside of your control, you still felt emotions. You still had ideas. Do you believe that just because a living being was predetermined that nothing is real? Do you believe that they will not have real emotions, or feel real pain or sorrow? That is a mistaken view of reality.

Free will is not about the physical world. Do you grasp that? Any analogy with the physical world changes the debate. That a statement doesn't matter is not about anything physical and you were foolish to say that.

I don't live in a predestined world. I wasn't predestined to be deaf or half blind. I am but that was just the breaks.

I do know that I make my own decisions and that is free will and is not conditioning. If it was, my siblings and I would be alike and we aren't. I also know I can change what I think and that is something conditioning won't allow. There's reality at work.