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View Full Version : Where do you stand on abortion?



Adelaide
02-08-2013, 02:30 PM
I am curious about the stats on how many members here are pro-choice or pro-life. We've had many discussions on the topic, but it would be neat to get a real idea on how many people support what.

Mister D
02-08-2013, 02:32 PM
Ambivalent but more sympathetic to the pro-life position.

Cigar
02-08-2013, 02:38 PM
:grin:

KC
02-08-2013, 02:53 PM
Similar to Mister D. I think it's a complicated issue. There are moral problems with both positions imo, but I think that in cases where a woman's life is threatened she should have access to an abortion. If that's the only time an abortion is legal, that opens a number of problems with prices and incentives (doctors may have an incentive to claim a woman's life is threatened when it's not). Also it will be difficult for clinics to stay open if the law prohibits most women from having an abortion, so there would be a short labor supply for doctors who specialize in abortions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic to the idea that one should take responsibility for their actions. Getting pregnant, except when there is a rape, is something that should only happen when a person is ready to be responsible for the child. Unfortunately that's often not the case, so I think it's better off being legal until some arbitrary legal cut off point during the pregnancy.

Chris
02-08-2013, 03:05 PM
I'm pro-rights: Both the expectant mother and the unborn child have equal rights, and that when these rights come into conflict then society must determine the outcome, for example, in a jury trial to determine whether , let's say, self-defense is morally justified.

KC
02-08-2013, 03:14 PM
I'm pro-rights: Both the expectant mother and the unborn child have equal rights, and that when these rights come into conflict then society must determine the outcome, for example, in a jury trial to determine whether , let's say, self-defense is morally justified.

How could that example be applied to abortion? Leave it to local courts to determine whether an individual can have an abortion?

Chris
02-08-2013, 03:28 PM
How could that example be applied to abortion? Leave it to local courts to determine whether an individual can have an abortion?

Same as murder is handled. After the fact, if you can justify as self-defense to a jury of peers, ok, else, guilty. In cases of rape or health, that would likely fall under self-defense. Convenience, probably not--in my opinion, if I was on jury, but if, say, chloe was on jury, she might consider that as ok, or in any case be more lenient.

It's not all that radical an idea.

KC
02-08-2013, 03:32 PM
Same as murder is handled. After the fact, if you can justify as self-defense to a jury of peers, ok, else, guilty. In cases of rape or health, that would likely fall under self-defense. Convenience, probably not--in my opinion, if I was on jury, but if, say, chloe was on jury, she might consider that as ok, or in any case be more lenient.

It's not all that radical an idea.

I could see how it would work in a smaller town, but how would you do that in a big city, where abortions are more common and more in demand? It seems like a less practical way of handling it.

However, I think we can agree that this sort of thing should be decided locally, or at least at the state level, not by the Federal government. So maybe if some towns wanted to use the court system, it might work better, while more metropolitan areas could figure out something more practical.

oceanloverOH
02-08-2013, 03:58 PM
I had to say, "Other"....this is such a complex, convoluted issue for me; no simple yes-or-no answers can apply.

I believe that life starts at conception. Voluntarily destroying that life for no other reason than "it's inconvenient right now" should be against the law, truly....that baby has the same right to live as the mother or anyone else. IMO, that's premeditated murder.

In the case of rape that results in a pregnancy....that's the worst tragedy in the whole abortion issue; because again, that child (no matter its parentage) has every right to live. As heartbreaking as it is, completing the pregnancy, and subsequent adoption is the best scenario there, if the mother cannot accept the life that was forced on her.

When should abortion be legal, and/or actually encouraged? In my opinion, in only two instances: (1) If prenatal medical evaluation confirms that the child so deformed or sickly that it cannot survive its first year or will be forced to rely solely on mechanical life support for the rest of its life; and (2) If continuing the pregnancy jeopardizes the mother's life.

Hard topic for me.

Chris
02-08-2013, 04:04 PM
I could see how it would work in a smaller town, but how would you do that in a big city, where abortions are more common and more in demand? It seems like a less practical way of handling it.

However, I think we can agree that this sort of thing should be decided locally, or at least at the state level, not by the Federal government. So maybe if some towns wanted to use the court system, it might work better, while more metropolitan areas could figure out something more practical.


I don't know, haven't thought it out much further. But the smaller the jurisdiction the better, the way Jefferson organized education, Swiss Cantons, voting district level perhaps.

Red Green
02-08-2013, 04:49 PM
I am curious about the stats on how many members here are pro-choice or pro-life. We've had many discussions on the topic, but it would be neat to get a real idea on how many people support what.

Abortion is murder and providers along with mother's should be put in prison. What kind of mother would savagely murder her own child?

Adelaide
02-08-2013, 05:08 PM
I am pro-choice. I would never consider an abortion for myself based on a variety of factors, religious beliefs not being one of them. But that is my choice. I believe every woman should be able to make their own choice about what they believe and whether they are willing to have an abortion. Even women who are deeply religious and entirely believe it's a child with rights/gift from God can sometimes be desperate enough to have an abortion. I don't judge those who are in bad or impossible situations and get an abortion. I don't really judge anyone else either, but I can definitely understand why some women feel they have next to no other options.

Red Green
02-08-2013, 05:13 PM
I am pro-choice. I would never consider an abortion for myself based on a variety of factors, religious beliefs not being one of them. But that is my choice. I believe every woman should be able to make their own choice about what they believe and whether they are willing to have an abortion. Even women who are deeply religious and entirely believe it's a child with rights/gift from God can sometimes be desperate enough to have an abortion. I don't judge those who are in bad or impossible situations and get an abortion. I don't really judge anyone else either, but I can definitely understand why some women feel they have next to no other options.

Any mother that would willingly murder her own child is mentally ill and should be institutionalized.

bladimz
02-08-2013, 05:15 PM
I believe that life starts at conception. Voluntarily destroying that life for no other reason than "it's inconvenient right now" should be against the law, truly....that baby has the same right to live as the mother or anyone else. IMO, that's premeditated murder.
...................

When should abortion be legal, and/or actually encouraged? In my opinion, in only two instances: (1) If prenatal medical evaluation confirms that the child so deformed or sickly that it cannot survive its first year or will be forced to rely solely on mechanical life support for the rest of its life; and (2) If continuing the pregnancy jeopardizes the mother's life.

Hard topic for me.Not picking on you ocean, but i need to say that on the one hand you say that the baby has the same right to live as the mother. On the other hand, you say that abortion should be allowable if the child (fetus) is so deformed or sickly that it cannot....support for the rest of its' life. Saying so, you've just placed conditions on the right to life of that baby.

I agree with you, and you're right; it's a very hard topic for many. But the one stance i have absolutely no time for is the one that says, "No abortion. None. Never, Ever, Ever".

bladimz
02-08-2013, 05:20 PM
Any mother that would willingly murder her own child is mentally ill and should be institutionalized.
Any administration that would willingly send it's own nation's youth into a war of convenience is guilty of murder and should be arrested, tried and convicted.

Somebody had to know this was coming...

Chris
02-08-2013, 05:26 PM
I am pro-choice. I would never consider an abortion for myself based on a variety of factors, religious beliefs not being one of them. But that is my choice. I believe every woman should be able to make their own choice about what they believe and whether they are willing to have an abortion. Even women who are deeply religious and entirely believe it's a child with rights/gift from God can sometimes be desperate enough to have an abortion. I don't judge those who are in bad or impossible situations and get an abortion. I don't really judge anyone else either, but I can definitely understand why some women feel they have next to no other options.

I don't grudge you your choice but shouldn't you be responsible for that choice?

Chris
02-08-2013, 05:28 PM
Any administration that would willingly send it's own nation's youth into a war of convenience is guilty of murder and should be arrested, tried and convicted.

Somebody had to know this was coming...

Indeed, were it a war merely of convenience. Presidents shouldn't be above the law any more than expectant mothers--before someone says it is legal, I mean moral law.

GrassrootsConservative
02-08-2013, 05:38 PM
Personally I am pro-life, but I think it (1) shouldn't be up to me and (2) DEFINITELY shouldn't be up to the government to decide.

Leave it up to the person, even if it's wrong. In my opinion, it's clearly wrong.

Red Green
02-08-2013, 05:39 PM
Any administration that would willingly send it's own nation's youth into a war of convenience is guilty of murder and should be arrested, tried and convicted.

Somebody had to know this was coming...

Translation you cannot defend a mother savagely murdering her own child so I'll change the subject and blame Bush even though we are currently in the fifth year of radical Obamunism.

bladimz
02-08-2013, 05:46 PM
Translation you cannot defend a mother savagely murdering her own child so I'll change the subject and blame Bush even though we are currently in the fifth year of radical Obamunism.Ok. Actually i can and will always defend a mother who has to make that difficult decision. If you want to use violent imagery, so be it. But remember, you're the one who said "Bush". Not me. :wink:

Red Green
02-08-2013, 05:50 PM
Ok. Actually i can and will always defend a mother who has to make that difficult decision. If you want to use violent imagery, so be it. But remember, you're the one who said "Bush". Not me. :wink:

Well you were implying Bush because after 4 years of Obongos destruction and four more years all you people have is to blame Bush.

Red Green
02-08-2013, 05:53 PM
Ok. Actually i can and will always defend a mother who has to make that difficult decision. If you want to use violent imagery, so be it. But remember, you're the one who said "Bush". Not me. :wink:

Well you were implying Bush because after 4 years of Obongos destruction and four more years all you people have is to blame Bush.

Adelaide
02-08-2013, 06:35 PM
Abortion is murder and providers along with mother's should be put in prison. What kind of mother would savagely murder her own child?

A desperate one.

Why don't you go stand our front of a Planned Parenthood and throw some chicken blood at some women. I'm sure you'll feel much better.

Red Green
02-08-2013, 07:15 PM
A desperate one.

Why don't you go stand our front of a Planned Parenthood and throw some chicken blood at some women. I'm sure you'll feel much better.

Desperation is no excuse for failing to take personal responsibility as for chicken blood I won't even dignify that with an answer.

oceanloverOH
02-08-2013, 07:32 PM
Not picking on you ocean, but i need to say that on the one hand you say that the baby has the same right to live as the mother. On the other hand, you say that abortion should be allowable if the child (fetus) is so deformed or sickly that it cannot....support for the rest of its' life. Saying so, you've just placed conditions on the right to life of that baby.

I agree with you, and you're right; it's a very hard topic for many. But the one stance i have absolutely no time for is the one that says, "No abortion. None. Never, Ever, Ever".

It's OK, Blad, I know you're not picking on me....I appreciate the opportunity to explain my statement a little more.

This is why I said this was a tough and convoluted subject for me, because euthanasia comes into play sometimes, and I DO support voluntary euthanasia (or a decision being made by loved ones for those incapable of rational thought). If a baby is determined to be so deformed or sickly that it cannot survive on its own and will be on a table, hooked up to machines for its entire life (however long that is) and require massive finanacial support and around the clock caregivers....with virtually no quality of life, then it's kindest not to let it be born. Yes, I have placed conditions, in that kind of scenario, on a life....but that's how I feel about it.

Peter1469
02-08-2013, 08:01 PM
I voted other.

It is a monumental issue; one that is likely greater than us as a people. I want it decided at the local level.

I don't have the wisdom to proclaim what 350M people do over this.

Mister D
02-08-2013, 08:43 PM
Similar to Mister D. I think it's a complicated issue. There are moral problems with both positions imo, but I think that in cases where a woman's life is threatened she should have access to an abortion. If that's the only time an abortion is legal, that opens a number of problems with prices and incentives (doctors may have an incentive to claim a woman's life is threatened when it's not). Also it will be difficult for clinics to stay open if the law prohibits most women from having an abortion, so there would be a short labor supply for doctors who specialize in abortions.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic to the idea that one should take responsibility for their actions. Getting pregnant, except when there is a rape, is something that should only happen when a person is ready to be responsible for the child. Unfortunately that's often not the case, so I think it's better off being legal until some arbitrary legal cut off point during the pregnancy.

I have dysgenic concerns. I find the "my body" mantra empty and insipid as most of the ideas inspired by feminism tend to be. What I find problematic is the higher fertility of the lower classes. That makes it a complicated issue for me.

If a woman's life is in danger than I would support ending the pregnancy.

Rich Saenz
02-09-2013, 07:45 AM
A desperate one. Why don't you go stand our front of a Planned Parenthood and throw some chicken blood at some women. I'm sure you'll feel much better. Please explain the chicken blood?

KC
02-09-2013, 11:20 AM
I have dysgenic concerns. I find the "my body" mantra empty and insipid as most of the ideas inspired by feminism tend to be. What I find problematic is the higher fertility of the lower classes. That makes it a complicated issue for me.

If a woman's life is in danger than I would support ending the pregnancy.

Right, I meant similar since I was ambivalent and that I was sympathetic to the pro life position.

Mister D
02-09-2013, 11:24 AM
Right, I meant similar since I was ambivalent and that I was sympathetic to the pro life position.

I sometimes wonder where I might be intellectually were it not for the influence of Christianity in my life. Not a good place I reckon.

Adelaide
02-09-2013, 06:19 PM
I sometimes wonder where I might be intellectually were it not for the influence of Christianity in my life. Not a good place I reckon.

Interestingly enough, the strictest forms of Judaism have laws that say a mother must abort in cases where her life is at risk. Other sects believe that psychological harm is as serious as physical harm to the mother. Some sects demand that the partner/father be involved in the decision. From a Jewish point of view, it's quite an interesting topic.

Mister D
02-09-2013, 06:22 PM
Interestingly enough, the strictest forms of Judaism have laws that say a mother must abort in cases where her life is at risk. Other sects believe that psychological harm is as serious as physical harm to the mother. Some sects demand that the partner/father be involved in the decision. From a Jewish point of view, it's quite an interesting topic.

For the record, that was not meant as a slight to any other religion whose effects in the lives of their devotees are similar to Christianity's effects in mine.

Adelaide
02-09-2013, 06:24 PM
For the record, that was not meant as a slight to any other religion whose effects in the lives of their devotees are similar to Christianity's effects in mine.

I didn't take it that way. It's just interesting how different religions play into the decision on whether to be pro-life or pro-choice.

Edit: One of the reasons I would never have an abortion is due to my Catholic mother. I wouldn't do that to her.

Adelaide
02-09-2013, 07:30 PM
I'm actually surprised how this poll has turned out so far...

Mister D
02-09-2013, 07:32 PM
I'm actually surprised how this poll has turned out so far...

When people settle down and really consider the issue it gets more complicated. Far too often we never get beyond caricature (e.g. you like killing babies or you want to control women)

Peter1469
02-09-2013, 07:55 PM
I'm actually surprised how this poll has turned out so far...

What did you expect?

Adelaide
02-09-2013, 07:56 PM
What did you expect?

Significantly more pro-lifers. But, as Mister D says, I guess it's not so black and white.