Remember Kent State -- May 4, 1970

[DGUtley]

On May 4, 1970, 4 students were killed at Kent State University (my Alma Mater) by National Guardsmen. National Guard had been called to campus by Governor Rhodes to quell protesting after the ROTC Building was torched. Some have argued that the Kent State killings quashed the peace movement. Personally, I don't know how you call troops onto a college campus to quash the constitutionally protected right of free speech. Many of the guardsmen were from my hometown and had just come off of the Teamsters Strike.

There were so many things that went wrong in Kent that week. What a tragedy. What a terrible tragedy.

R.I.P.: Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings


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https://youtu.be/YX95QSKBODo



Note: I am making this a 'tpf' thread to keep the trolls off.

[MisterVeritis]

On May 4, 1970, 4 students were killed at Kent State University (my Alma Mater) by National Guardsmen. National Guard had been called to campus by Governor Rhodes to quell protesting after the ROTC Building was torched. Some have argued that the Kent State killings quashed the peace movement. Personally, I don't know how you call troops onto a college campus to quash the constitutionally protected right of free speech. Many of the guardsmen were from my hometown and had just come off of the Teamsters Strike.

...

Burning buildings and rioting are not protected, nonviolent speech.

[DGUtley]

Burning buildings and rioting are not protected, nonviolent speech.

Understood -- and the 6th Circuit held that the police were justified in dispersing the crowd on Friday or Saturday. That's a long way from shooting kids on Monday.

[Captdon]

I remember it well. One person fired a shot and the Guard reacted to it. The students were wrong but the NG wasn't trained for this.

[DGUtley]

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This is a hole in a sculpture near the architect building caused by a 30 caliber shot on 050470. (I've heard that they either built a new architect building or are building a new architect building) It's kind of a rite of passage for each KSU freshman to walk up there an put there finger in that hole.

[DGUtley]

I remember it well. One person fired a shot and the Guard reacted to it. The students were wrong but the NG wasn't trained for this.

I don't think that there's any evidence that any non-guardsman fired a shot.

[MisterVeritis]

Understood -- and the 6th Circuit held that the police were justified in dispersing the crowd on Friday or Saturday. That's a long way from shooting kids on Monday.
Apparently the crowds were not dispersed.

[alexa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bThJpH8wIP0

[DGUtley]

Apparently the crowds were not dispersed.

Different day. There's never really been an explanation for why the guard turned and fired. It was inexplicable.

[DGUtley]

My freshman class (Fall 1980) was the first full freshman class that KSU had since the shootings.

[Captdon]

I don't think that there's any evidence that any non-guardsman fired a shot.

That's what the news of the day said. A shot was fired. I didn't say who fired it.

[Captdon]

Apparently the crowds were not dispersed.

Governor Jim Rhodes had just dealt with Teamsters throwing cement blocks at trucks from overhead. He was in no mood to take any more. When the NG is sent in, the police pull out. The Guard shouldn't have been there to start with. They were not trained for riots.

[MisterVeritis]

Governor Jim Rhodes had just dealt with Teamsters throwing cement blocks at trucks from overhead. He was in no mood to take any more. When the NG is sent in, the police pull out. The Guard shouldn't have been there to start with. They were not trained for riots.
Honestly, I don't really care.

People make mistakes. If they did not history would be less interesting.

[DGUtley]

https://youtu.be/osnJX89xF5I

[DGUtley]

Drove through campus yesterday on my way down home. It was crowded.

Just because. That damn Jim Rhodes.

[gamewell45]

On May 4, 1970, 4 students were killed at Kent State University (my Alma Mater) by National Guardsmen. National Guard had been called to campus by Governor Rhodes to quell protesting after the ROTC Building was torched. Some have argued that the Kent State killings quashed the peace movement. Personally, I don't know how you call troops onto a college campus to quash the constitutionally protected right of free speech. Many of the guardsmen were from my hometown and had just come off of the Teamsters Strike.

There were so many things that went wrong in Kent that week. What a tragedy. What a terrible tragedy.

R.I.P.: Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder.

25910


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings


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https://youtu.be/YX95QSKBODo



Note: I am making this a 'tpf' thread to keep the trolls off.

I was in AROTC in those days and I remember how horrified most of us were when we heard of the shootings. For a while, when we went off campus, we had to go in small groups since there was fear of retaliation by the locals.

[DGUtley]

Thanks Game. It was a very sad day. In the little town I grew up they vilified the students b/c many of the guardsmen were from there.

Armed soldiers on a college campus in this country. Armed soldiers. Live ammunition. Farm kids. Cleveland kids. !@#$%^&*() Jim Rhodes.

[EvilCat Breath]

The only mistake in the Kent State shootings was that it didn't happen earlier. The college protests were violent. They put the lives of students, faculty, the police and firefighters at risk. We look back on the incidents and do not see how bad they were.

If anything, we need a few Kent States today.

[Captdon]

Kent State should have been protected by the Highway Patrol. These Guardsmen were not trained for this. Rhodes, knowing there was going to be trouble, could have called in the Cleveland and Cincinnati police as well.

The school shares responsibility as well. The school should have been closed. The police then could have moved the students out and ended this.

I was living in the Cleveland suburb of Parma when this happened. The teamsters were tossing blocks off overheads and the NG was patrolling bridges. We were only a couple of years from the Cleveland riots.The whole atmosphere in the area was overheated. Too many adults screwed up, led by Jim Rhodes.

[DGUtley]

The only mistake in the Kent State shootings was that it didn't happen earlier. The college protests were violent. They put the lives of students, faculty, the police and firefighters at risk. We look back on the incidents and do not see how bad they were.
If anything, we need a few Kent States today.

You are wrong.

[donttread]

Burning buildings and rioting are not protected, nonviolent speech.

Neither are they typically met with military force and the death penalty.

[donttread]

On May 4, 1970, 4 students were killed at Kent State University (my Alma Mater) by National Guardsmen. National Guard had been called to campus by Governor Rhodes to quell protesting after the ROTC Building was torched. Some have argued that the Kent State killings quashed the peace movement. Personally, I don't know how you call troops onto a college campus to quash the constitutionally protected right of free speech. Many of the guardsmen were from my hometown and had just come off of the Teamsters Strike.

There were so many things that went wrong in Kent that week. What a tragedy. What a terrible tragedy.

R.I.P.: Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder.

25910


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings


25911


25912


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https://youtu.be/YX95QSKBODo



Note: I am making this a 'tpf' thread to keep the trolls off.

I've never thought to ask this question as I was young ( around 10 ) when this happened. Not very political yet. But did Rhodes ever run again?

[DGUtley]

I've never thought to ask this question as I was young ( around 10 ) when this happened. Not very political yet. But did Rhodes ever run again?
Yes. Ohio has term limits. He was termed out after 8 years (63-71) but ran again and won (75-83).

[MisterVeritis]

Burning buildings and rioting are not protected, nonviolent speech.

Neither are they typically met with military force and the death penalty.
There were no death penalties.

And yes, riots are met with military or militarized police.

[DGUtley]

Interesting article about the bullet hole in the sculpture: https://www.ohio.com/news/20190503/bob-dyer-artist-helped-solve-may-4-mystery

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[Common]

I watched the entire Kent State riot and subsequent shooting live as it happened.

What I saw was this, a huge group of students throwing bottles and rocks and other objects at a line of National Guardsmen.

There was an officer with a loudspeaker yelling at the students, what was being said I do not remember.

I remember the huge group of students running right at the guardsmen throwing objects and finally the guardsmen firing their weapons.

I want to be clear about 2 things, the first is that this was NOT a peaceful protest, this was a riot and second I dont condone or justify those students being shot.

The guardsmen had no proper riot gear, they werent in a riot control formation and they OBVIOUSLY were not trained in Riot Control. Why they sent regular little trained national guard with live ammunition is beyond criminal.

I specifically blame whoever sent in the national guard and whoever was in charge of that operation, Those guardsmen were unequipted to deal with what was in front of them

Riot trained police or military, water canons, tear gas, shields etc.

[DGUtley]

I've watched a lot of those videos. When the troops marched down to blanket hill and then turned and fired, nobody was running or throwing things at them. At least not as I recall.

You don't shoot to kill when you have kids protesting on a college campus. This is on Rhodes. Rubber Bullets. Batons. Live ammo? Really?

[MisterVeritis]

I watched the entire Kent State riot and subsequent shooting live as it happened.

What I saw was this, a huge group of students throwing bottles and rocks and other objects at a line of National Guardsmen.

There was an officer with a loudspeaker yelling at the students, what was being said I do not remember.

I remember the huge group of students running right at the guardsmen throwing objects and finally the guardsmen firing their weapons.

I want to be clear about 2 things, the first is that this was NOT a peaceful protest, this was a riot and second I dont condone or justify those students being shot.

The guardsmen had no proper riot gear, they werent in a riot control formation and they OBVIOUSLY were not trained in Riot Control. Why they sent regular little trained national guard with live ammunition is beyond criminal.

I specifically blame whoever sent in the national guard and whoever was in charge of that operation, Those guardsmen were unequipted to deal with what was in front of them

Riot trained police or military, water canons, tear gas, shields etc.
It is easy to find fault when one has the benefit of a vast body of history to review about an incident.

[Tahuyaman]

Burning buildings and rioting are not protected, nonviolent speech.

There were no death penalties.

And yes, riots are met with military or militarized police.
Usually violent acts are brought down with superior acts of violence.

[Tahuyaman]

I've watched a lot of those videos. When the troops marched down to blanket hill and then turned and fired, nobody was running or throwing things at them. At least not as I recall.

You don't shoot to kill when you have kids protesting on a college campus. This is on Rhodes. Rubber Bullets. Batons. Live ammo? Really?
Does it change things when those kids are setting a building on fire?

[Peter1469]

Usually violent acts are brought down with superior acts of violence.
Usually agitators join protests for the purpose of provoking the authorities. These days police and military will have plains-cloths assets in the protest to identify these agitators. They can then be snatched and grabbed, or shot.

[Captdon]

I've watched a lot of those videos. When the troops marched down to blanket hill and then turned and fired, nobody was running or throwing things at them. At least not as I recall.

You don't shoot to kill when you have kids protesting on a college campus. This is on Rhodes. Rubber Bullets. Batons. Live ammo? Really?

You don't use the NG for these things. You bring in riot trained police to handle it.

[Captdon]

It is easy to find fault when one has the benefit of a vast body of history to review about an incident.

The NG was wrong then and they're still wrong. Nothing has changed what happened.

[Captdon]

Does it change things when those kids are setting a building on fire?

The National Guard is not a police force.

[Common]

I've watched a lot of those videos. When the troops marched down to blanket hill and then turned and fired, nobody was running or throwing things at them. At least not as I recall.

You don't shoot to kill when you have kids protesting on a college campus. This is on Rhodes. Rubber Bullets. Batons. Live ammo? Really?
That is exactly the problem they had NONE of that, no rubber bullets, there were no water canons, they werent in formation with shields.

They fired because thats all they had, it was set up all wrong from the start and what I saw was a huge group running right at the guards men throwing objects.

[Tahuyaman]

The National Guard is not a police force.


That's Not an answer. Plus the national guard is under the control of a governor. The college in question is a state school. The governor had the legal authority to employ the national guard in that manner.

[MisterVeritis]

It is easy to find fault when one has the benefit of a vast body of history to review about an incident.

The NG was wrong then and they're still wrong. Nothing has changed what happened.
You err.

Deploying the National Guard was not wrong. Ohio had a riot it could not handle.

[DGUtley]

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https://www.kent.edu/may4kentstate50


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWWqIK6y178

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJYSSJQmVE8

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