The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America

[Dr. Who]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoTQAdomYMs&list=PL190B285C9709465C&featur e=player_embedded

[Carygrant]

Compare American school kids with their Chinese and far eastern counterparts .
It's unbelievable .
There is absolutely no way that America can be in the top few for anything of importance and within the next generation .

[Dr. Who]

Compare American school kids with their Chinese and far eastern counterparts .
It's unbelievable .
There is absolutely no way that America can be in the top few for anything of importance and within the next generation .
Sadly this is either a problem with adopting ecclectic educational theories that are completely unproven or a deliberate attempt to educationally lobotomize the population. To neither enforce spelling or math in the interest of creativity is to create a creative, but completely illiterate population. What is that but a return to the dark ages when the peasants were ruled by their "betters".

[roadmaster]

Compare American school kids with their Chinese and far eastern counterparts .
It's unbelievable .
There is absolutely no way that America can be in the top few for anything of importance and within the next generation .

They are so driven that they forget to have family time. If a parent is on the bottom they will do speed to work three jobs. No I wouldn't want that type of life nor would I want to raise a child there.

[Carygrant]

They are so driven that they forget to have family time. If a parent is on the bottom they will do speed to work three jobs. No I wouldn't want that type of life nor would I want to raise a child there.


As ever , i suspect a more middle of the road approach is the optimum one . The middle way .
But there are currently extremely serious attendant issues . Even here , in God's chosen land , we are producing a swathe of youngsters who have major information , discipline and culture issues .
Some of the causes are connected to ignorant parents and lack of male role models . But also a lack of sanctions that "hurt" is another key factor -- no negative conditioning possible " i.e. if a kid does wrong , they are not punished in ways that are severe enough for them to be influenced positively 'next time around " . Lack of defined limits and the "tough love" approach .
I hope that the major part of this scenario is almost self correcting -- that is , the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other over a period of time . But how soon ?

[zelmo1234]

As ever , i suspect a more middle of the road approach is the optimum one . The middle way .
But there are currently extremely serious attendant issues . Even here , in God's chosen land , we are producing a swathe of youngsters who have major information , discipline and culture issues .
Some of the causes are connected to ignorant parents and lack of male role models . But also a lack of sanctions that "hurt" is another key factor -- no negative conditioning possible " i.e. if a kid does wrong , they are not punished in ways that are severe enough for them to be influenced positively 'next time around " . Lack of defined limits and the "tough love" approach .
I hope that the major part of this scenario is almost self correcting -- that is , the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other over a period of time . But how soon ?

Fantastic Post Mr Cary. What we call this in America is Self Esteem promotion. Jonnie does not have to do his work, he does not have to participate, he does not have to achieve a passing grade to move on with his friends to the next grade. He receives a trophy for participalting in sports, and they don't even keep score in youth sports because they do not want Jonnie to feel bad.

There is no dicipline in the school system, children can go wild and disrupt the classes, they have no reason to behave, especially as they advance in the school system. The Teachers are trying to catch the kids that were passed by social promotion up, so the kids that are at or above level, are not challanged. the reason that in the USA we fall further behind the longer they are in school, is because of the social promotion.

This also teaches children that there are on consequences for there actions, and that they have to do nothing to achieve. They expect employers to pay them for doing nothing. They are fired from job ager job, and of course this is the first time in there life that they have been allowed to fail.

I hope that this is not the case in the UK, but this is intentional in the USA, it is not by accident that the children did not know what the Bill of Rights was, why the Civil War was started. They are being tought that The USA is a terrible country, the even in WWI and WWII we were brutal. Nost ahve no Idea what happend to the jews in Nazi Germany.

Instead the learn indoctrinations, and of course it is easy to lead sheep and convince them that they have no rights.

[JackRuby]

John Taylor Gatto and many others have documented the reason American education has dulled and stupefied many generations of Americans. Our prison like structures called schools are nothing more than glorified obedience schools based off the Prussian model to create obedient workers and soldiers and a permanent lower class who won't threaten the power brokers.

Jack

[Carygrant]

El Mo
I am not comfortable with you being nice to me . I was close to breaking down , until I remembered what a bar steward you are . rofl .
I regret to say that it is also true in parts of the UK though not as a result of deliberate policy -- but you could reasonably argue that whilst successive Govt's have an inkling of the position , they are reluctant to then meet the huge problem head on . I suspect this is because they cannot or will not find the required right money to attack a fundamental rent in society , and they are loth to publicly admit to matters which are glaringly obvious to others privately .
Namely, that a , or the , major cause is poverty along with a bleak future -- no jobs .
This in itself means that some ethnic groups tend to carry the total blame , for they are perceived as the biggest troublemaker : and , here it is blacks , because of the higher level of violence you see versus comparable white youngsters.
The alternative culture that so may kids now follow is validated for them by seeing that the future offers them little to nothing and alternative goals have therefore got to be followed . Primarily , crime and violence to fund cultural symbols ( clothes and technology) plus the drugs needed to give false bravado and hope .
I silently give thanks , if I feel down , that I am not a youngster with fewer than average opportunities for real advancement --- basic good education and then a real job .
But having said all of that , bear in mind that we are still one of the EU economies with our heads just above water and a strong unemployment figure of just under 8% versus the EU average which is over 11% . And we beat Brazil at football last week !!!!

[Sunbelt]

The more I hear about this sort thing going on, the closer my wife and I get to home schooling our own child.

[Chris]

What do you expect when the federal government imposes one size fits all solutions but the lowest common denominator.

[Adelaide]

Sadly this is either a problem with adopting ecclectic educational theories that are completely unproven or a deliberate attempt to educationally lobotomize the population. To neither enforce spelling or math in the interest of creativity is to create a creative, but completely illiterate population. What is that but a return to the dark ages when the peasants were ruled by their "betters".

Well, there is a fun and creative way to teach while still teaching topics the way they should be. An entirely uncreative and unimaginative approach to education is as big a problem as straightforward spelling/math - you need to inspire and engage students to do the work and to want to do the work. When large portions of the population have entirely uninvolved parents, it becomed the responsibility of teacher and student to ensure there is a certain level of motivation that can be achieved without involvement of parents.

Basically, I think parents are the real problem here.

[Chris]

Well, there is a fun and creative way to teach while still teaching topics the way they should be. An entirely uncreative and unimaginative approach to education is as big a problem as straightforward spelling/math - you need to inspire and engage students to do the work and to want to do the work. When large portions of the population have entirely uninvolved parents, it becomed the responsibility of teacher and student to ensure there is a certain level of motivation that can be achieved without involvement of parents.

Basically, I think parents are the real problem here.


Basically, I think parents are the real problem here.

I think that was so a decade ago. What's happened since is the schools now assume they are responsible and parents shouldn't interfere. My son had trouble his senior year, especially with one teacher. I went to see her and she basically told me to butt out, she was not only belligerent but rather vulgar. Went to the Principle and he wouldn't believe it and that they would handle it, go home. Only after I threatened to go to the local news did he arrange a meeting with her and a few others. I presented the case, she blew up, and I told them my son's not the problem, she is, deal with it. They did, she was forced to do the right thing by him.

It may have been caused by parent apathy, but I think this is a general attitude of schools these days.

[Adelaide]

I think that was so a decade ago. What's happened since is the schools now assume they are responsible and parents shouldn't interfere. My son had trouble his senior year, especially with one teacher. I went to see her and she basically told me to butt out, she was not only belligerent but rather vulgar. Went to the Principle and he wouldn't believe it and that they would handle it, go home. Only after I threatened to go to the local news did he arrange a meeting with her and a few others. I presented the case, she blew up, and I told them my son's not the problem, she is, deal with it. They did, she was forced to do the right thing by him.

It may have been caused by parent apathy, but I think this is a general attitude of schools these days.

Failing schools in poorer neighbourhoods is what I was primarily thinking about when I made my post... But generally, there are parents that are very proactive and engaged in their child's education, but majority don't even seem to check to see if homework is done.

[Chris]

Failing schools in poorer neighbourhoods is what I was primarily thinking about when I made my post... But generally, there are parents that are very proactive and engaged in their child's education, but majority don't even seem to check to see if homework is done.

Yes, there are many, but I blame the culture of both them and the schools, a culture driven by the need to have both parents working, a culture defined more and more by a federal government planning schooling, a culture criticized in Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind.

My wife worked in office while I worked at home so I was very involved. Most of my son's friend's parents were the same.

[Mister D]

Even with an extremely diverse population the USA manages to retain a relatively high ranking in terms of education. Higher, in fact, than the UK and many other OECD countries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Stop wetting the bed.

[JackRuby]

One size fits all. Our diplomas look the same as the semi-retarded fucks who tie up most of the teacher's and administrator's time with their brain dead behavior and "needs." It's a farce.

Jack

[Pete7469]

Even with an extremely diverse population the USA manages to retain a relatively high ranking in terms of education. Higher, in fact, than the UK and many other OECD countries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Stop wetting the bed.

That's not good enough, we should be the best. I take little comfort that we are better than sucks.

[Mister D]

That's not good enough, we should be the best. I take little comfort that we are better than sucks.

Understood. I'm just pointing out that there is no crisis. We manage to do well given the circumstances. Only certain segments of the student population do poorly. Overall, the US does fine. Now are our children truly educated? Hardly but that is characteristic of the modern world.

[Carygrant]

As usual , Mister dee presents incorrect data . Deliberately I suspect , as the best available fats have been presented here quite recently .
.

[Mister D]

As usual , Mister dee presents incorrect data . Deliberately I suspect , as the best available fats have been presented here quite recently .
.

As usual, bitch tits cannot make an argument. That's because he doesn't have one. Again, the US retains a relatively high ranking in terms of education. Adjust your bra and deal with the stats. I clobbered Awryly with them too. :smiley:

[Chris]

As usual , Mister dee presents incorrect data . Deliberately I suspect , as the best available fats have been presented here quite recently .
.

Then present those counterfacts, cary, don't just talk about talking.

[Private Pickle]

Then present those counterfacts, cary, don't just talk about talking.

Presenting facts isn't Cary's strongpoint...

[Dr. Who]

Well, there is a fun and creative way to teach while still teaching topics the way they should be. An entirely uncreative and unimaginative approach to education is as big a problem as straightforward spelling/math - you need to inspire and engage students to do the work and to want to do the work. When large portions of the population have entirely uninvolved parents, it becomed the responsibility of teacher and student to ensure there is a certain level of motivation that can be achieved without involvement of parents.

Basically, I think parents are the real problem here.
In many ways I agree. I don't know whether you watched the video or not, but while teachers/schools should make education interesting to students, yes and even instill creativity, the basic subject matter must still be taught. Allowing random spelling choices and not requiring correct math answers in primary school creates a snow ball effect that has increasing consequences in high school, where the ability of the student to learn more independently is expected. Difficult to do when the student can't really read. On the other hand the declining level of parental discipline is creating a more unruly, rude, disrespectful and even aggressive high school population. The combination of lack of fundamental skills and no respect or discipline among many of the students makes for an environment where even those students who have acquired the requisite skills have difficulty focusing. Rather than finding ways of addressing the problems, the school system simply drops the educational bar, until what you have rather than a school is just a glorified babysitting service. Parents who value education try to find better schools, even if it means moving or paying for private school. Others resort to home schooling. Many are apparently unaware that there is a problem because they are too busy, too tired or too apathetic to take an interest. Some even believe it is the school's responsibility to reform their wayward children. There is a suggestion in the video that the same competetive techniques that work in the market should be used to ensure that schools aim for success i.e. allowing parents to choose the school that their children attend based on educational achievement. Schools that fail will be closed down. This forces the schools to find better ways of reaching the students and achieving the desired educational outcome. It does not however address how to fix the parents.

[Bigred1cav]

What is the Federal Government one size fits all law? Please cite the law so i may find and read.

Or shut up and be known as ignorant.

[Chris]

What is the Federal Government one size fits all law? Please cite the law so i may find and read.

Or shut up and be known as ignorant.

One example is No Child Left Behind. Where've you been, Rumplestiltskin?

[zelmo1234]

As usual , Mister dee presents incorrect data . Deliberately I suspect , as the best available fats have been presented here quite recently .
.

And here is where you wuold present fact that supported your claim??????? but you never do just your opnion????

[Adelaide]

In many ways I agree. I don't know whether you watched the video or not, but while teachers/schools should make education interesting to students, yes and even instill creativity, the basic subject matter must still be taught. Allowing random spelling choices and not requiring correct math answers in primary school creates a snow ball effect that has increasing consequences in high school, where the ability of the student to learn more independently is expected. Difficult to do when the student can't really read. On the other hand the declining level of parental discipline is creating a more unruly, rude, disrespectful and even aggressive high school population. The combination of lack of fundamental skills and no respect or discipline among many of the students makes for an environment where even those students who have acquired the requisite skills have difficulty focusing. Rather than finding ways of addressing the problems, the school system simply drops the educational bar, until what you have rather than a school is just a glorified babysitting service. Parents who value education try to find better schools, even if it means moving or paying for private school. Others resort to home schooling. Many are apparently unaware that there is a problem because they are too busy, too tired or too apathetic to take an interest. Some even believe it is the school's responsibility to reform their wayward children. There is a suggestion in the video that the same competetive techniques that work in the market should be used to ensure that schools aim for success i.e. allowing parents to choose the school that their children attend based on educational achievement. Schools that fail will be closed down. This forces the schools to find better ways of reaching the students and achieving the desired educational outcome. It does not however address how to fix the parents.

The teachers' unions would love that... lol

Honestly, even high school doesn't really teach independence. It always confused me that they're prepping you for higher education and the job force in ways that aren't realistic. If you're taking university prep courses, they should be formatted more closely to represent what a real university class is like. If you are taking workplace level courses, then you should be learning practical information that is applicable to joining the work force immediately, (and admittedly, at least here, they've gotten better at that - things like manadatory civics and career studies, or math that applies to real life situations like filing taxes or buying a house).

[Pete7469]

One example is No Child Left Behind. Where've you been, Rumplestiltskin?


1472

[JackRuby]

Our education system is a tragedy because it's been dumbed down. Sure high schools brag about their test scores and isn't any wonder? If you show up and have a body tempature somewhere around 98 degrees you can make the honor roll. And look at our society and the mass culture we consume. Not exactly the stuff of high intellect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2EPKKVrqI

Jack

[roadmaster]

And we beat Brazil at football last week !!!! Congrats:cool2:

[Dr. Who]

1472

Geez. It took me a second or two to figure out what that was!

[Carygrant]

Then present those counterfacts, cary, don't just talk about talking.


Wy cast pearls before swine?

[Chris]

Wy cast pearls before swine?

Discourse ethics.

[Carygrant]

Presenting facts isn't Cary's strongpoint...


Presenting facts that suit you is what you actually mean .

[Mister D]

Wy cast pearls before swine?

No worries. I'm sure by now no one takes your claims seriously. :smiley:

[Mister D]

Presenting facts that suit you is what you actually mean .

You haven't presented any facts at all.

[Carygrant]

And here is where you wuold present fact that supported your claim??????? but you never do just your opnion????


You will be telling us next that you never saw them /have forgotten them .
Odd habit that you right wingers have when the figures go against you .

[Carygrant]

Discourse ethics.


Suhject -- verb -- object , will get you a simple sentence . Writing random words is not productive .

[Dr. Who]

Our education system is a tragedy because it's been dumbed down. Sure high schools brag about their test scores and isn't any wonder? If you show up and have a body tempature somewhere around 98 degrees you can make the honor roll. And look at our society and the mass culture we consume. Not exactly the stuff of high intellect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2EPKKVrqI
Good video - funny, but sad, because it's true.

Jack

[Mister D]

You will be telling us next that you never saw them /have forgotten them .
Odd habit that you right wingers have when the figures go against you .

Where are they, Cary? :grin:

[Mister D]

Our education system is a tragedy because it's been dumbed down. Sure high schools brag about their test scores and isn't any wonder? If you show up and have a body tempature somewhere around 98 degrees you can make the honor roll. And look at our society and the mass culture we consume. Not exactly the stuff of high intellect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2EPKKVrqI

Jack

Mass culture is consumed enthusiastically all over the developed world. It may not be intellectually stimulating but much of the rest of the world laps it up like well trained mutts.

[Chris]

Wy cast pearls before swine?


Discourse ethics.


Suhject -- verb -- object , will get you a simple sentence . Writing random words is not productive .

Context, cary, context, you provided that, I filled in the blank, I answered your question. Why should you backup your claim? Discourse ethics is why.

Now did you have a question what discourse ethics is? The idea is not to be productive but contributive to the discussion.

[JackRuby]

Mass culture is consumed enthusiastically all over the developed world. It may not be intellectually stimulating but much of the rest of the world laps it up like well trained mutts.

But we're supposed the be the pace setter, above banal shallow intellect. We're not, even though at one time our worth ethic and pioneering spirit were the envy of the world. In short we've gotten lazy physically and intellectually.

Jack

[Mister D]

But we're supposed the be the pace setter, above banal shallow intellect. We're not, even though at one time our worth ethic and pioneering spirit were the envy of the world. In short we've gotten lazy physically and intellectually.

Jack

The pace setter in what?

[Carygrant]

Context, cary, context, you pro
Now did you have a question what discourse ethics is? The idea is not to be productive but contributive to the discussion.


You should be well aware by now that there is nothing that I am unaware of . !!
But anything directly associated with Kant makes me shiver .
What relevance do you think it has to this topic? Incidentally it is known as Argumentation Ethics over here . I understood that it is more popularly known as Libertarian Ethics in the US .

[JackRuby]

The pace setter in what?

Everything. Are we not the world's envy?

Jack

[Mainecoons]

No.

[Chris]

You should be well aware by now that there is nothing that I am unaware of . !!
But anything directly associated with Kant makes me shiver .
What relevance do you think it has to this topic? Incidentally it is known as Argumentation Ethics over here . I understood that it is more popularly known as Libertarian Ethics in the US .

You're not god, cary. But it is good you are familiar with discourse ethics. Simple stuff like the act of speech (posting) implies you have something to say and want others to listen and respond to it, and that that implies you are willing to reciprocate, by listening and responding to others. In the forum rules and guidelines that's referred to as posting in good faith.