Roll Call; Are there any more Progressives/Liberals Remaining? BTW Thread #2 today

[Cigar]

If you're proud to be labeled a Progressive or Liberal leaning .... please chime in.

The perception is, this is a dying bread on this forum, it would be nice to know who's still a member.

If you're not afraid to identity yourself without retaliation or restrictions.

I put this in the Democrats Section because I would think this would be the appropriate location for the question.

I hope this question doesn't infringe on any restriction.

[Chris]

I think you should include socialists. There are plenty liberals/progressives/socialist here. But I would be surprised if many accepted a call out like this.

[Mainecoons]

More baiting from the masterbaiter.

[Cigar]

More baiting from the masterbaiter.

It's your privilege to call me anything you want and go off topic ... it's not like the rules are for you anyway.

But this Thread was opened for serious discussion on if there are any remaining members who call themselves Progressive or Liberals.

[Chris]

It's your privilege to call me anything you want and go off topic ... it's not like the rules are for you anyway.

But this Thread was opened for serious discussion on if there are any remaining members who call themselves Progressive or Liberals.

What was the discussion point again? Identifying oneself politically is not discussion. What did you intend to discuss?

(If you have questions about the rules here, which seems evident, PM a moderator.)

[Cigar]

Please forgive me ... apparently I wasn't clear enough for some on this Forum:

Therefore, for those who have no idea what Roll Call means or how to respond to these two English words.


roll call




attendance check: a check on attendance, especially in a school or military establishment, by calling out the names of those expected to be present, with each of those present responding



In short ... if you're neither Progressive nor Liberal, there's no reason you need to be concerned with this tread.

[Chris]

But I'm interested. Why are you discouraging discussion?

[Cigar]

This isn't Rocket Science, Differential Methods or Complex Multiplications.

It's a "question".

Iif you're a Conservative or anything other than a Progressive or Liberal, you can chime in to indicate you're not either. If you chose to give a dissertation on why ... please feel free.

It would be nice to answer the question before the dissertation for clarity.

BTW ... most Progressives and Liberals that I know, don't find this question difficult to answer or threatening.

[Agravan]

Most progressives or liberals that I know are reluctant to identify themselves as such.

[Cigar]

Most progressives or liberals that I know are reluctant to identify themselves as such.



Not this one or any of the ones I know ... as a matter of fact, I got no problem discussing it with anyone, anytime, anyplace.

BTW ... looks like there's not many left ... should make for great discussions, just the way some like it.

[Chris]

I think we all pretty much know where we all stand.

But tell us, what is a liberal or progressive to you and I why are you one? That might make for good discussion.

[Cigar]

I like being a Progressive because it's easier on nervous system.

I don't have to hate anyone, I like Technology and Science and I'm not in fear of the future.

There's may other, but that's good enough for now.

[Pete7469]

I think we all pretty much know where we all stand.

But tell us, what is a liberal or progressive to you and I why are you one? That might make for good discussion.

"Good discussion" involving cigar? You can't be serious.

[Chris]

"Good discussion" involving cigar? You can't be serious.


Give him a chance.

[Chris]

I like being a Progressive because it's easier on nervous system.

I don't have to hate anyone, I like Technology and Science and I'm not in fear of the future.

There's may other, but that's good enough for now.

Thanks. I'm not progressive because I don't believe man can be progressed, not by design, not by merely penning laws.

[Chloe]

Based on what is typically considered to be liberal or progressive then I'm pretty sure I am one. Nobody wants to be labeled anything usually since it can be used against people, but I don't think it's an insult to be called a liberal of progressive If you are one. I'm sure if someone called a conservative a conservative I doubt they'd be upset since they probably know they are one.

im a liberal/progressive/green whatever you want to call me. I base that on my views and beliefs and how it relates to those labels. If I'm not any of those things then its a surprise to me. :)

[Cigar]

Thanks. I'm not progressive because I don't believe man can be progressed, not by design, not by merely penning laws.


Well ... there's a functional reason why the rear-view mirrors are smaller than the windshield?

One is used far more than the other based on importance.

Sure ... where you've been is important, but where you're going far more critical.

I'm Progressive because I'm more concerned with what's ahead and in no way am I ever going backwards.

You're free to go backwards at any speed you like ... hope you get to where you're going?

[Chris]

Well ... there's a functional reason why the rear-view mirrors are smaller than the windshield?

One is used far more than the other based on importance.

Sure ... where you've been is important, but where you're going far more critical.

I'm Progressive because I'm more concerned with what's ahead and in no way am I ever going backwards.

You're free to go backwards at any speed you like ... hope you get to where you're going?

Progressiveness and its opposite has nothing to do with the past or future. We're all concerned with what will happen tomorrow and ought to use the past to guide us.

When I say man cannot be progressed I mean man cannot design and manage who man as a society is, we're flawed and cannot be perfected. About all one can do is make oneself a little better in his relations with others. If everyone did then, by an invisible hand, so to speak, what might emerge naturally is a better society, nation, world. The problem with trying to change society is man is simply not smart enough and tends to take from or harm one group in order to give to or help another group, one tends in trying to be fair to be unfair.

[Chris]

Based on what is typically considered to be liberal or progressive then I'm pretty sure I am one. Nobody wants to be labeled anything usually since it can be used against people, but I don't think it's an insult to be called a liberal of progressive If you are one. I'm sure if someone called a conservative a conservative I doubt they'd be upset since they probably know they are one.

im a liberal/progressive/green whatever you want to call me. I base that on my views and beliefs and how it relates to those labels. If I'm not any of those things then its a surprise to me. :)

A topic like this really shouldn't be about labeling, but defining what it means to be a liberal or progressive or green. So can I ask what that means to you?

[Cigar]

On average, man does what is right. It may happen slow, kicking and screaming, or through just time ... but sooner or later, right wins over wrong. So long as everyone understands what's the definition of wrong.


I ... by nature and education, believe in Science for example, and you simply can't convince me otherwise.

I ... by nature and up-bring, believe in education, it's not arrogant to think so.

[Chris]

On average, man does what is right. It may happen slow, kicking and screaming, or through just time ... but sooner or later, right wins over wrong. So long as everyone understands what's the definition of wrong.


I ... by nature and education, believe in Science for example, and you simply can't convince me otherwise.

I ... by nature and up-bring, believe in education, it's not arrogant to think so.

Man individually when he is free to choose may do more right than wrong, but if not free to choose can do neither. Only a free people can choose to act morally. --And conversely, only a moral people can be free.

I don't think science is a matter of belief, more a matter of acceptance. Just keep in mind science doesn't prove things, it explains things, incompletely, tentatively, probabilistically.

Education that teaches how to think, think critically, is good, education that teaches what to think is not.


Are you trying to say only progressive appreciate science and education?

[Bigred1cav]

It is much better to be known as a socialist than a NAZI. The right wing reeks of fascist thought and action.

Socialists want all to get a seat at the table. Right wing sucks up to the rich and crazy.

[zelmo1234]

I like being a Progressive because it's easier on nervous system.

I don't have to hate anyone, I like Technology and Science and I'm not in fear of the future.

There's may other, but that's good enough for now.

I like being conservative, for the exact same reasons, plus you don't have to hurt and make victoms out of people.

But you are right, it is getting a little dull around here, we need more from the Liberal side, that actually want to have a discussion! Otherwise I just might have to switch sides for the sake of discussion!

[Cigar]

Man individually when he is free to choose may do more right than wrong, but if not free to choose can do neither. Only a free people can choose to act morally. --And conversely, only a moral people can be free.

I don't think science is a matter of belief, more a matter of acceptance. Just keep in mind science doesn't prove things, it explains things, incompletely, tentatively, probabilistically.

Education that teaches how to think, think critically, is good, education that teaches what to think is not.


Are you trying to say only progressive appreciate science and education?


Not at all ... I'm saying people who criticize education for others yet find it essential for their own are hypocrites and dangerous.

[Chris]

It is much better to be known as a socialist than a NAZI. The right wing reeks of fascist thought and action.

Socialists want all to get a seat at the table. Right wing sucks up to the rich and crazy.

Nazism is a branch of socialism, or perhaps better put a practical implementation of the theory of socialism, like fascism, communism, and social democracy.



Cigar, I think red's saying he's a red, a socialist.

[Bigred1cav]

Jesus Christ was a liberal as were the US Founders.

[Cigar]

I like being a Progressive because it's easier on nervous system.

I don't have to hate anyone, I like Technology and Science and I'm not in fear of the future.

There's may other, but that's good enough for now.


This is fact for me ... your individual millage may vary ...

[Chris]

Not at all ... I'm saying people who criticize education for others yet find it essential for their own are hypocrites and dangerous.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I agree. I'd agree with Jefferson: ". . . whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that, whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them right." He advocated public education, public education controlled at the local, not the federal level.

[Chris]

Jesus Christ was a liberal as were the US Founders.

Jesus Christ, Libertarian (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/mullen-t2.1.1.html), just like many of the Founders, given that libertarians are the successors of classical liberalism, not modern liberals who are the successors of progressives the successors of socialists.

[Cigar]

Nazism is a branch of socialism, or perhaps better put a practical implementation of the theory of socialism, like fascism, communism, and social democracy.



Cigar, I think red's saying he's a red, a socialist.

I think everyone should have an equal chance at a seat at the table.

That's not saying the same thing as everyone should be at the table.

Careful with the literal minded ... they're options are limited and so is their thinking.

[Chris]

I think everyone should have an equal chance at a seat at the table.

That's not saying the same thing as everyone should be at the table.

Careful with the literal minded ... they're options are limited and so is their thinking.

IOW, guarantee equality in the pursuit of happiness, not the attainment of it.

It's good to see you reject socialism, you know, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

You're starting to sound like a Blue Dog.

[Chloe]

A topic like this really shouldn't be about labeling, but defining what it means to be a liberal or progressive or green. So can I ask what that means to you?

I'm not even really sure what the difference is between a liberal and progressive to be honest. Officially, well atleast with the state of Oregon, I'm green party.

this is just my opinion but I guess what liberal/progressive means to me is someone who is more accepting of people's differences, more open minded to change, more focused on fairness, more forward thinking, more inclusive, and more focused on how things affect the group more so than the individual. From those things it means a stronger focus on the environment, minorities and oppressed people, the inclusion of all faiths and beliefs, acceptance of individuals with differences, and a focus on improving life instead of just maintaining it.

This is obviously not to say that "conservatives" don't believe similar things, but in my opinion liberals/progressives tend to look more towards what life can be like instead of what life used to be like.

[Cigar]

OK, thanks for clarifying. I agree. I'd agree with Jefferson: ". . . whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that, whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them right." He advocated public education, public education controlled at the local, not the federal level.


The problem with leaving everything to the local level is assuming the locals care that much for everyone in their locality. Our history and current inactivity proves that's not true, and that's when we need consistency. Americans should be able to travel The United States of America and be treated the same, not more or less, and not to the whims of various locals.

[Chris]

I'm not even really sure what the difference is between a liberal and progressive to be honest. Officially, well atleast with the state of Oregon, I'm green party.

this is just my opinion but I guess what liberal/progressive means to me is someone who is more accepting of people's differences, more open minded to change, more focused on fairness, more forward thinking, more inclusive, and more focused on how things affect the group more so than the individual. From those things it means a stronger focus on the environment, minorities and oppressed people, the inclusion of all faiths and beliefs, acceptance of individuals with differences, and a focus on improving life instead of just maintaining it.

This is obviously not to say that "conservatives" don't believe similar things, but in my opinion liberals/progressives tend to look more towards what life can be like instead of what life used to be like.

Thanks. I won't argue except to say some of those things are shared with conservatives, not all, but some. Like accepting individual differences.

Here's how the label liberal came into political usage. At one time there were progressives, but they'd sullied that name so badly that when FDR ran for office he sought a new label. Liberal hadn't been used so much so he latched on to that. Liberals at the time were infuriated about the hijacking, but political marketing won over, and they settled on libertarian. Ironically, now liberal has become so sullied that they are beginning to go back to using progressive.

[Chris]

The problem with leaving everything to the local level is assuming the locals care that much for everyone in their locality. Our history and current inactivity proves that's not true, and that's when we need consistency. Americans should be able to travel The United States of America and be treated the same, not more or less, and not to the whims of various locals.

Agree, but which came first the chicken or the egg. Are people apathetic today about education because the federal government has taken responsibility out of their hands?

Agree, people should be treated before the law equally, but that is not achieved by making all consistent with cookie cutter education, but, as chloe said, accepting individual differences..

[Cigar]

I'm not even really sure what the difference is between a liberal and progressive to be honest. Officially, well atleast with the state of Oregon, I'm green party.

this is just my opinion but I guess what liberal/progressive means to me is someone who is more accepting of people's differences, more open minded to change, more focused on fairness, more forward thinking, more inclusive, and more focused on how things affect the group more so than the individual. From those things it means a stronger focus on the environment, minorities and oppressed people, the inclusion of all faiths and beliefs, acceptance of individuals with differences, and a focus on improving life instead of just maintaining it.

This is obviously not to say that "conservatives" don't believe similar things, but in my opinion liberals/progressives tend to look more towards what life can be like instead of what life used to be like.

This I can agree with ... and this is how I see things.

It's like trying to have an argument with someone who says Earl Monroe was better than Michael Jordan or that Labron James is better than Jordan.

Who cares ... because we'll never know the truth and truth don't matter in the first place.

[zelmo1234]

Not at all ... I'm saying people who criticize education for others yet find it essential for their own are hypocrites and dangerous.

Yes but because I feel that our current educational system is broken, especially for those that need it most, the inner city and poor districts, does not mean that I am against education. Because I will not vote for more money for failing schools deos ntoo mean tthat I do not want children educated.

lets face it with the money we spend to send students to failing public schools we could send them to private schools with a better track record on education. So If I am not for the current system, that does not mean that I do not want kids educated.

[Mister D]

Frankly, I have my most heated and interesting arguments with libertarians. I'm not sure why we tend to speak of a "right wing" forum.

[Cigar]

Yes but because I feel that our current educational system is broken, especially for those that need it most, the inner city and poor districts, does not mean that I am against education. Because I will not vote for more money for failing schools deos ntoo mean tthat I do not want children educated.

lets face it with the money we spend to send students to failing public schools we could send them to private schools with a better track record on education. So If I am not for the current system, that does not mean that I do not want kids educated.

Do you feel the same about putting money into our prison system?

... and where do you want to spend your money?

Because you will spend that money in one place or another, no exceptions, we have the history to prove that.

[zelmo1234]

Do you feel the same about putting money into our prison system?

... and where do you want to spend your money?

Because you will spend that money in one place or another, no exceptions, we have the history to prove that.

Actually I do, they are broken too. and here is what I mean. We are spending over 10K on a national average to send kids to public schools. private school average is aroung 6K per year.

If we raise it to 12K per public school student what will change? likely nothing. But if we went to a voucher system and allowed the money to follow the child, instead of the district, then we would have an oppertunity to sand many of the students to those private schools and break the cycle!

Just as if we were to cut Prison budgest and make the inmates start raising there won food, getting rid of Air conditioning, accept for those few days that the heat is over bearing (the south would require more ) Bring back the chain gangs, and work permits. Then maybe those that went into the system would really hate it and not want to go back. After all it is to be punishment, not a vacation!

[Cigar]

Actually I do, they are broken too. and here is what I mean. We are spending over 10K on a national average to send kids to public schools. private school average is aroung 6K per year.

If we raise it to 12K per public school student what will change? likely nothing. But if we went to a voucher system and allowed the money to follow the child, instead of the district, then we would have an oppertunity to sand many of the students to those private schools and break the cycle!

Just as if we were to cut Prison budgest and make the inmates start raising there won food, getting rid of Air conditioning, accept for those few days that the heat is over bearing (the south would require more ) Bring back the chain gangs, and work permits. Then maybe those that went into the system would really hate it and not want to go back. After all it is to be punishment, not a vacation!

It's not the amount we're spending, I know plenty of Teacher who should get as much as Lawyers. It's how we're teaching, just look at the rest of the world and the people who are getting the Jobs ... especially in fields that are needed, like Technology and Health Care. I find it hard to understand why people will gladly pay a Lawyer a lot to keep their kid out of jail but questions the Teacher who gives them the knowledge to keep then from jail.

Some of the best humans I know are Teachers. Paying someone 30k a year to teach your finest is crazy. Would you want the Thacher who taught your Doctor, Accountant or Lawyer 30k ?

[zelmo1234]

It's not the amount we're spending, I know plenty of Teacher who should get as much as Lawyers. It's how we're teaching, just look at the rest of the world and the people who are getting the Jobs ... especially in fields that are needed, like Technology and Health Care. I find it hard to understand why people will gladly pay a Lawyer a lot to keep their kid out of jail but questions the Teacher who gives them the knowledge to keep then from jail.

Some of the best humans I know are Teachers. Paying someone 30k a year to teach your finest is crazy. Would you want the Thacher who taught your Doctor, Accountant or Lawyer 30k ?

Now if you want to change the system, then I am all for looking a different financing options. And if you think about it, when a district gets 10K per year per student, and they can only pay a teacher 30K it is a shame.

But NO I do not think that teacher should make the same as a Doc or a lawyer, because they only work 8 months out of the year. So a teacher making 30 K would be a full time employee making 45K for working the full year. Now if you changed School to a 12 month program I would be all for it. But another thing to remember is that Teachers making 30K are new Teachers just starting out, the average is much higher.

http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_us.html

And a starting job make 30K for 8 months work is better than my son who is a reasearch bioligest trying to figure out how to keep your water and air clean, and wildlife populations sustainable, and he is making 25K for 12 months work?

There is much to be reformed, there can be no more 25 or 30 and out plans for teachers, and government workers, they must work until retirement age, like everyone else.

Like I said if you want to change things around, I might very well be for more money for the schools, but to keep the status qou and just pay teachers more! not likely to get my vote

[Peter1469]

I'm not even really sure what the difference is between a liberal and progressive to be honest. Officially, well atleast with the state of Oregon, I'm green party.

this is just my opinion but I guess what liberal/progressive means to me is someone who is more accepting of people's differences, more open minded to change, more focused on fairness, more forward thinking, more inclusive, and more focused on how things affect the group more so than the individual. From those things it means a stronger focus on the environment, minorities and oppressed people, the inclusion of all faiths and beliefs, acceptance of individuals with differences, and a focus on improving life instead of just maintaining it.

This is obviously not to say that "conservatives" don't believe similar things, but in my opinion liberals/progressives tend to look more towards what life can be like instead of what life used to be like.

I think we all want generally the same thing. The question is how to get it? Through the power of the government, or through individual action?

[Chloe]

I think we all want generally the same thing. The question is how to get it? Through the power of the government, or through individual action?

Does it have to be either/or? Government is elected by us, and if they are elected by us to do what we want them to do then doesn't that mean something too? You can have individual action along with government support and power in my opinion. I'd prefer mostly individual action as well, but I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

[Peter1469]

Does it have to be either/or? Government is elected by us, and if they are elected by us to do what we want them to do then doesn't that mean something too? You can have individual action along with government support and power in my opinion. I'd prefer mostly individual action as well, but I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

My issue is that government solutions tend to hurt more than they help. Especially as you get further away from the local government.

[Chloe]

My issue is that government solutions tend to hurt more than they help. Especially as you get further away from the local government.

I can buy that

[Chris]

Does it have to be either/or? Government is elected by us, and if they are elected by us to do what we want them to do then doesn't that mean something too? You can have individual action along with government support and power in my opinion. I'd prefer mostly individual action as well, but I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

You make a faulty assumption, chloe, that those representatives act in our interests and not their own.

[Agravan]

It's not the amount we're spending, I know plenty of Teacher who should get as much as Lawyers. It's how we're teaching, just look at the rest of the world and the people who are getting the Jobs ... especially in fields that are needed, like Technology and Health Care. I find it hard to understand why people will gladly pay a Lawyer a lot to keep their kid out of jail but questions the Teacher who gives them the knowledge to keep then from jail.

Some of the best humans I know are Teachers. Paying someone 30k a year to teach your finest is crazy. Would you want the Thacher who taught your Doctor, Accountant or Lawyer 30k ?

You know what Cigar? there is a problem with what we're teaching in the schools. Instead of teaching the hard sciences, we are teaching the feel-good subjects like "self-esteem", "alternate lifestyles", and crap like that. We have stopped giving out failing grades because that may hurt a child's "self-esteem", we give participation trophie, we don't keep score anymore. In other words, we are raising and letting loose into the world, a generation of wussies who have never had to face failure and learn from it. These kids expect everything handed to them because it was during their school years. Children are not prepared for the real world. In other words, they are trained to be dependents of the government.

[Chloe]

You make a faulty assumption, chloe, that those representatives act in our interests and not their own.

Fair enough, but that just means we need to do a better job of holding them accountable

[Agravan]

Fair enough, but that just means we need to do a better job of holding them accountable

Constantly voting these idiots back in without term limits does not do that.

[KC]

Fair enough, but that just means we need to do a better job of holding them accountable

That's an interesting question regardless of where one falls on the political spectrum. What can be done (if anything) to use politicians' self interests to benefit society?

[countryboy]

Now if you want to change the system, then I am all for looking a different financing options. And if you think about it, when a district gets 10K per year per student, and they can only pay a teacher 30K it is a shame.

But NO I do not think that teacher should make the same as a Doc or a lawyer, because they only work 8 months out of the year. So a teacher making 30 K would be a full time employee making 45K for working the full year. Now if you changed School to a 12 month program I would be all for it. But another thing to remember is that Teachers making 30K are new Teachers just starting out, the average is much higher.

http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_us.html

And a starting job make 30K for 8 months work is better than my son who is a reasearch bioligest trying to figure out how to keep your water and air clean, and wildlife populations sustainable, and he is making 25K for 12 months work?

There is much to be reformed, there can be no more 25 or 30 and out plans for teachers, and government workers, they must work until retirement age, like everyone else.

Like I said if you want to change things around, I might very well be for more money for the schools, but to keep the status qou and just pay teachers more! not likely to get my vote

Not only that but, there aren't many teachers who only make $30,000. Especially when you factor in bennys. My neighbor is a retired elementary school teacher who retired early and lives on a couple hundred acres with multiple houses, cabins, out buildings, and a multiple pond fish farm. Yeah, she's really hurtin'.

In Ohio, teacher salaries are public record, look it up if any one doubts my word.

[zelmo1234]

Does it have to be either/or? Government is elected by us, and if they are elected by us to do what we want them to do then doesn't that mean something too? You can have individual action along with government support and power in my opinion. I'd prefer mostly individual action as well, but I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive.

You are correct there needs to be a relationship between Government and the Private Sector. When they work together correctly you get good economic growth and now bubbles. when the private sector gets a little too much power you get a bubble and an economy that can grow too fast. When the government gets to agressive you get a stagnant economy like we have now. but they do need to try and work together

[Chloe]

Constantly voting these idiots back in without term limits does not do that.

I don't disagree. I think there should be some type of term limit

[Chris]

You make a faulty assumption, chloe, that those representatives act in our interests and not their own.


Fair enough, but that just means we need to do a better job of holding them accountable

It is. I think, a central problem of a people governing themselves. As Madison famously put it in Federalist #51:


If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.

[Chris]

CIgar, see this: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/5279-Hey-guys-Political-Crowd-Chart?p=233348&viewfull=1#post233348

[Chris]

Seems your impressions about this forum were unfounded.

[Mister D]

Cigar

???

[Adelaide]

I'm Socialist... and don't have any problem, really. Treat people with respect and they'll treat you with respect.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm Socialist... and don't have any problem, really. Treat people with respect and they'll treat you with respect.

Disagree, not all people.

Many will take advantage of you - or try if they sense weakness.

[Mister D]

Disagree, not all people.

Many will take advantage of you - or try if they sense weakness.

True but, on the plus side, anyone who does is obviously not here for genuine discussion. They are either a fanatic or a bored troll living on some island that no one cares about...until the Orcs come anyway. :wink:

[Carygrant]

Disagree, not all people.

Many will take advantage of you - or try if they sense weakness.


But nevertheless , there are still a few fair minded right wing people who try to redress their imbalance .