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View Full Version : It's Cultural Deviancy, Not Guns



Mister D
02-14-2013, 03:52 PM
That should be obvious. Great analogy!

---
There's a story told about a Paris chief of police who was called to a department store to stop a burglary in progress. Upon his arrival, he reconnoitered the situation and ordered his men to surround the entrances of the building next door. When questioned about his actions, he replied that he didn't have enough men to cover the department store's many entrances but he did have enough for the building next door. Let's see whether there are similarities between his strategy and today's gun control strategy.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/walter-e-williams/its-cultural-deviancy-not-guns

Chris
02-14-2013, 05:34 PM
I like Williams, tells it like it is.

Bottom line: "Today's Americans accept behavior that our parents and grandparents never would have accepted."

Conley
02-14-2013, 06:08 PM
It's hard to find a good chart that covers everything, but isn't violent crime way off its peak? So is our culture really that twisted, and if so, what do you base that judgment on?

From this it seems like you could argue that a couple of generations ago people were much more deviant --

"Crime rates have varied over time in the United States. American crime rates generally rose after World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), and peaked between the 1970s and early 1990s. Since the early 1990s, crime has declined in the United States,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-crimvict2011-5) and current crime rates are approximately the same as those of the 1960s.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-6)"

"After World War II, crime rates increased in the United States, peaking from the 1970s to the early 1990s. Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, crime in the United States has declined steeply. Several theories have been proposed to explain this decline:
The number of police officers increased considerably in the 1990s.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Levitt_04-11)
The prison population has been expanded since the mid-1970s.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Levitt_04-11)
Starting in the mid-1980s, the crack cocaine market grew rapidly before declining again a decade later. Some authors have pointed towards the link between violent crimes and crack use.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Levitt_04-11)
One hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect) suggests a causal link between legalized abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) and the drop in crime during the 1990s.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-Donohue_69-12)
Changing demographics of an aging population has been cited for the drop in overall crime.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-13)
Another hypothesis suggests reduced lead exposure as the cause; Scholar Mark A.R. Kleiman writes: "Given the decrease in lead exposure among children since the 1980s and the estimated effects of lead on crime, reduced lead exposure could easily explain a very large proportion—certainly more than half—of the crime decrease of the 1994-2004 period. A careful statistical study relating local changes in lead exposure to local crime rates estimates the fraction of the crime decline due to lead reduction as greater than 90 percent.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-14)
Three Strikes You're Out Laws were suggested during the 1992 election cycle and implemented immediately following."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

I think the drop is due to more law enforcement personel, more people in jail, and advances in technology for id'ing and arresting criminals. I'm not sure that our modern society is any worse than it used to be, but people do seem more isolated which I blame mostly on TV and the internet.

Mister D
02-14-2013, 07:38 PM
The central point Williams is making is that certain segments of American society have a problem with gun violence.


According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, between 1976 and 2011, there were 279,384 black murder victims. Though blacks are 13 percent of the nation's population, they account for more than 50 percent of homicide victims. Nationally, the black homicide victimization rate is six times that of whites, and in some cities, it's 22 times that of whites. Coupled with being most of the nation's homicide victims, blacks are also most of the victims of violent personal crimes, such as assault and robbery.

It's not about guns. It's about culture. I tried to explain this to the anti-gun fanatics on this website but it put them in a difficult ideological position and I admit I knew it would.

JackRuby
02-14-2013, 08:29 PM
I like Williams, tells it like it is.

Bottom line: "Today's Americans accept behavior that our parents and grandparents never would have accepted."

Some I would agree. On the other hand this was a pretty violent country many times in our history. Pre Colonial was pretty rough with the Indians. The Wild West was pretty messed up. I think basically people have too much time on their hands today and fill that time with some pretty fucked up shit from the entertainment industry. Needless pressure of modern society triggers some violent behavior I believe also. Booze and legal as well as illegal drugs doesn't help. I read a study once on how nutrition, as strange as it sounds, can really fuck a person's mind up. So in the end I don't think we are a more violent society as compared to other epochs of history but I think the triggers are different in terms of cause.

Jack (Assassian)

Alif Qadr
02-15-2013, 08:29 AM
That should be obvious. Great analogy!

---
There's a story told about a Paris chief of police who was called to a department store to stop a burglary in progress. Upon his arrival, he reconnoitered the situation and ordered his men to surround the entrances of the building next door. When questioned about his actions, he replied that he didn't have enough men to cover the department store's many entrances but he did have enough for the building next door. Let's see whether there are similarities between his strategy and today's gun control strategy.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/walter-e-williams/its-cultural-deviancy-not-guns

Excellent article, Mister D. The author of said article addresses many of the same topics and points that I have and do in regards to crime and the Second Amendment.

Cigar
02-15-2013, 08:36 AM
I wonder who, if any on this Forum is actually "anti gun" ... meaning they do not have or want Guns of their own and don't want anyone else to have Guns either.

That would be the definition of "anti gun".

But please carry on ... :wink:

Mister D
02-15-2013, 08:52 AM
I wonder who, if any on this Forum is actually "anti gun" ... meaning they do not have or want Guns of their own and don't want anyone else to have Guns either.

That would be the definition of "anti gun".

But please carry on ... :wink:

You are. What are we to think of a man who lied about owning guns in order to make a point about restrictions on their sale?

Cigar
02-15-2013, 08:57 AM
You are. What are we to think of a man who lied about owning guns in order to make a point about restrictions on their sale?

Please continue Governor :grin:

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/507e6216ecad044456000000-512-333/obama-romney-debate.jpg

Mister D
02-15-2013, 09:00 AM
No need. You've been exposed as a fraud. It's not the first time.

Chris
02-15-2013, 09:08 AM
Some I would agree. On the other hand this was a pretty violent country many times in our history. Pre Colonial was pretty rough with the Indians. The Wild West was pretty messed up. I think basically people have too much time on their hands today and fill that time with some pretty fucked up shit from the entertainment industry. Needless pressure of modern society triggers some violent behavior I believe also. Booze and legal as well as illegal drugs doesn't help. I read a study once on how nutrition, as strange as it sounds, can really fuck a person's mind up. So in the end I don't think we are a more violent society as compared to other epochs of history but I think the triggers are different in terms of cause.

Jack (Assassian)

Conley's post certainly supports that. But I'm not sure, I tend to agree with Williams that our society exhibits a pervasive sense of permissiveness, a sense of accepting such behavior.

Conley
02-15-2013, 09:09 PM
The central point Williams is making is that certain segments of American society have a problem with gun violence.



It's not about guns. It's about culture. I tried to explain this to the anti-gun fanatics on this website but it put them in a difficult ideological position and I admit I knew it would.

But aren't handguns more easily accessible to those certain segments of American society than they used to be?

Mister D
02-15-2013, 09:12 PM
But aren't handguns more easily accessible to those certain segments of American society than they used to be?

You used to be able to order a Thompson from the Sears Catalog back in the day so I would say that firearms were generally far more available in the past.

Private Pickle
02-15-2013, 09:18 PM
But aren't handguns more easily accessible to those certain segments of American society than they used to be?

No. Much harder actually.

Conley
02-15-2013, 10:28 PM
No. Much harder actually.

I'm not saying for law abiding citizens...I'm talking about criminals in inner cities with mass produced cheap handguns available. I could be wrong, often am it just seems like over decades the number of hand guns in circulation has definitely increased (some are destroyed, some wear out, but at the rate they're being made it must be net positive?) so it's not a crazy assumption. Cheap and plentiful drugs obviously contribute a lot to the plight of the inner city so couldn't cheap and plentiful hand guns?

Conley
02-15-2013, 10:30 PM
You used to be able to order a Thompson from the Sears Catalog back in the day so I would say that firearms were generally far more available in the past.

Are you and I talking about the same segment of American society? :grin:

That's a very interesting point...but you can say rifles are available in lots of WalMarts, sporting good stores, etc. I'm not talking about the law abiding part of the population, so different segment I think.

Conley
02-15-2013, 10:31 PM
I thought this:


What percentage of murders, irrespective of race, are committed with what are being called assault weapons? You'd be hard put to come up with an amount greater than 1 or 2 percent. In fact, according to FBI data from 2011, there were 323 murders committed with a rifle of any kind but 496 murders committed with a hammer or a club..

Was very interesting in the OP...I had no idea

Conley
02-15-2013, 10:36 PM
This is old, from the Economist in 94


Every ten seconds a gun is made in America; every nine seconds one is imported, adding over 6m guns annually to the estimated 212m already in private circulation, nearly one per citizen.


Of the 212m firearms in circulation, about 67m are handguns. Three-quarters of the handguns produced in America are now semi-automatic pistols (that is, pistols carrying up to 12 rounds, where a bullet is expelled with each squeeze of the trigger), which until the 1980s were used mainly by soldiers. Handguns now figure in about 60% of firearms homicides. By contrast, semi-automatic rifles account for a mere 1% of homicides; there are around 3m in circulation. Opponents of semi-automatic rifles, which are widely used in hunting, say they can easily be converted for fully automatic fire, so that one squeeze of the trigger produces a stream of bullets. This makes them into machine-guns, banned by federal law. Their defenders say that conversion is difficult, needing a machine-tool shop and a supply of scarce or restricted parts.

http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Economist_Articles/home-on-the-range.html

And from 212 million guns in 1994 to almost 300 million today


"The biggest problem for gun control today is a number: 300 million," Winkler said. "That's roughly the number of guns there are in civilian hands today. Any new law you pass confronts the reality of 300 million guns already in circulation."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/OTUS/controlling-gun-violence-obstacles-effective-policy/story?id=18008013

Seems like an awful lot to me.

Mister D
02-15-2013, 10:40 PM
Are you and I talking about the same segment of American society? :grin:

That's a very interesting point...but you can say rifles are available in lots of WalMarts, sporting good stores, etc. I'm not talking about the law abiding part of the population, so different segment I think.

Well that's just it. Something has changed and it isn't the availability of firearms.

Conley
02-15-2013, 11:17 PM
I like Williams, tells it like it is.

Bottom line: "Today's Americans accept behavior that our parents and grandparents never would have accepted."

I don't know what our grandparents and parents would and would not accept but it does seem like American society doesn't really lose too much sleep over the inner city homicides. So in a way I guess that is acceptance...the Taliban shoots a girl halfway around the world and it's front page news but kids getting shot down in Chicago barely makes a blip.

zelmo1234
02-16-2013, 05:44 AM
Are you and I talking about the same segment of American society? :grin:

That's a very interesting point...but you can say rifles are available in lots of WalMarts, sporting good stores, etc. I'm not talking about the law abiding part of the population, so different segment I think.

How do you get the criminals to submit to a background check before the steal a gun!

zelmo1234
02-16-2013, 05:47 AM
But aren't handguns more easily accessible to those certain segments of American society than they used to be?

Not legally?

Adelaide
02-16-2013, 01:02 PM
I don't know what our grandparents and parents would and would not accept but it does seem like American society doesn't really lose too much sleep over the inner city homicides. So in a way I guess that is acceptance...the Taliban shoots a girl halfway around the world and it's front page news but kids getting shot down in Chicago barely makes a blip.

The girl is sensational; relatively poor Americans getting shot is just boring. The media knows what it is doing.

Mister D
02-16-2013, 01:23 PM
I don't know what our grandparents and parents would and would not accept but it does seem like American society doesn't really lose too much sleep over the inner city homicides. So in a way I guess that is acceptance...the Taliban shoots a girl halfway around the world and it's front page news but kids getting shot down in Chicago barely makes a blip.

Great point.

Chris
02-16-2013, 01:52 PM
I don't know what our grandparents and parents would and would not accept but it does seem like American society doesn't really lose too much sleep over the inner city homicides. So in a way I guess that is acceptance...the Taliban shoots a girl halfway around the world and it's front page news but kids getting shot down in Chicago barely makes a blip.

That's a good point putting it into perspective like that. Murders and other crimes in SA hit the local news, but rarely if ever hit national let alone International news. Part of media bias, I think.