PDA

View Full Version : Do you think that this country is worth dying for?



Captain Obvious
02-24-2013, 12:29 AM
Would you give your life in defense of our country?

Elaborate.

Chris
02-24-2013, 12:39 AM
Yes for the country class, no for the ruling class.

Peter1469
02-24-2013, 12:57 AM
22 years of combined active and reserve service - and this question is offensive.


When you are in the shit, the question about country doesn't come up. The only thing that matters is you battle buddy and your unit. Fuck the rest.

Captain Obvious
02-24-2013, 12:59 AM
Why is it offensive?

And you didn't answer the question.

Guerilla
02-24-2013, 03:26 AM
Would you give your life in defense of our country?

Elaborate.

No. I'm not to fond of uniting under some flag to die for unnecessary causes. America doesn't go to war because our civilians are in immediate threat or our country is attacked, it's because they like to police the world. I wouldn't want to follow blind orders for the sole purpose of "the call of duty" either. That just sounds sheepish.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 03:40 AM
These words still ring true today!

http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/poldocs/GMLOGMD.pdf :flag:

patrickt
02-24-2013, 06:29 AM
I would not fight under the flag of the United Nations. I would not fight for a President who hates the U.S. and whose allies are America's enemies. But, America and it's Constitution is worth fighting for and dying if necessary. People die every day for the liberal dream of a socialist America. Hundreds die in Chicago every year for the current government in Washington.

But, for America, yes, its worth fighting and dying for. I did my time in the military, I raised my children to work and pay taxes, and I pay taxes. I'm doing my part now. Sadly, a majority don't.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 07:59 AM
You are right Patrickt, Maybe a bettere way to put it was I the American Constitution worth fighting and dying for?

And the funny part is you mention that people die for socialism everyday. The next big fight might just be between the socialist, which will come to the same conclusion that every other socialist movment has. You must kill the oppisition in order to insert your control over the people. For their own good of cousre?????

oceanloverOH
02-24-2013, 08:47 AM
@patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) said it so very well.

My America is NOT found in an arrogant President who couldn't care less about this country. My America is NOT a corrupt government with its greedy little fingers now scraping the bottom of the average worker's pockets. My America is NOT the semi-criminal politicians who will say and do anything, right or wrong, to keep their fatcat jobs. My America is NOT "the almighty dollar".

My America is an ideal. An ideal of peace. A love of freedom in all its many forms. Solid support and belief in the concept of family values. An honest day's work for an honest day's wage. Firm belief in the tenets of a Constitution written so many years ago by much wiser men than any "leader" we have today. Is all that worth fighting and dying for?

Damn straight.

Agravan
02-24-2013, 09:13 AM
What she said ^^^^^^ :icon_salut:

Conley
02-24-2013, 01:47 PM
This country is mostly about corporate interests now so I'd have to say a big no...For family I definitely would.

Guerilla
02-24-2013, 02:19 PM
You must kill the oppisition in order to insert your control over the people. For their own good of cousre?????

Isn't that what every political party does when rising to power? And is that not what America continuously does? Have we not invaded other countries on the basis of "spreading freedom and democracy"? Don't try to make it seem like it's only a socialism thing.

Adelaide
02-24-2013, 02:20 PM
I said yes. But, that's easy to say now. Who knows how I would actually act in a situation that warranted defending/dying for my country.

Chloe
02-24-2013, 03:18 PM
I voted no. Not because I dislike our country because I don't dislike it, but mainly I just know that I would not voluntarily die in the name of a country or of a flag. I'd give my life for a variety of things though that are living and breathing. For example...family, friends, even strangers...If someone told me, forced me, that I had to choose between me dying or one of you dying right now I'd choose me every time since if I didn't choose myself then I'd be basically killing one of you through someone else (if that makes sense). I don't believe that the country is worth dying for because at the end of the day we don't live for the United States we live for each other and our families and friends. Call that idealistic but there's no reason for false patriotism if you don't really believe in it. If you choose to die literally for the country then that is your choice and should be respected, and i'm not going to judge you for it, but that's not me.

Chris
02-24-2013, 03:43 PM
I voted no. Not because I dislike our country because I don't dislike it, but mainly I just know that I would not voluntarily die in the name of a country or of a flag. I'd give my life for a variety of things though that are living and breathing. For example...family, friends, even strangers...If someone told me, forced me, that I had to choose between me dying or one of you dying right now I'd choose me every time since if I didn't choose myself then I'd be basically killing one of you through someone else (if that makes sense). I don't believe that the country is worth dying for because at the end of the day we don't live for the United States we live for each other and our families and friends. Call that idealistic but there's no reason for false patriotism if you don't really believe in it. If you choose to die literally for the country then that is your choice and should be respected, and i'm not going to judge you for it, but that's not me.

So you're a member of the country class, not the ruling class. :smiley:

Basically, the country class is the people, the ruling class the politicians, politically favored rich, bureaucrats, technocrats, etc. This distinction was put foward in the following article from three years ago: America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution (http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print).

Ivan88
02-24-2013, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=Chloe;240073 ...mainly I just know that I would not voluntarily die in the name of a country or of a flag. I'd give my life for a variety of things though that are living and breathing. For example...family, friends, even strangers...
...we live for each other and our families and friends.[/QUOTE]

Pretty good way of defusing the issue, Chloe.

They asked Ayn Rand if she'd die for her beliefs. She said she prefers to live for them.

Here is a Marine Corps General who says No to the thread's question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_EXqJ8f-0 

oceanloverOH
02-24-2013, 04:35 PM
Well....I'll tell you what. In a sense, I agree with those of you who said no. I might have trouble convincing myself to go off to some foreign country and fight because our "not-really-leaders" say I have to (prolly a good thing I'm retired from the military now).
:but:If America is ever attacked by a foreign nation (again!)....SOMEBODY is gonna have to fight for our freedom, our way of life, our country. And you can sit on your ass and thank me while I fight and die, OK?

Mister D
02-24-2013, 04:57 PM
The America I would have died for is gone. I would NOT risk anything much less die for what has replaced it.

Mainecoons
02-24-2013, 06:04 PM
I have to agree. The enemy within is the problem not anyone else. The U.S. Federal government and many bloated, dictatorial state and local governments are the real enemy of America.

Mister D
02-24-2013, 06:17 PM
I have to agree. The enemy within is the problem not anyone else. The U.S. Federal government and many bloated, dictatorial state and local governments are the real enemy of America.

Quoted for truth. We also have an elite that no longer identifies with us.

Adelaide
02-24-2013, 07:12 PM
The America I would have died for is gone. I would NOT risk anything much less die for what has replaced it.

What about the people?

Mister D
02-24-2013, 07:18 PM
What about the people?

Which ones? There is no longer any American people. That's just an empty legalism.

Mainecoons
02-24-2013, 07:21 PM
I'm going to repeat this again: The ONLY threat to the U.S. AND its people is its government. Sure, some two bit terrorists can set some bombs and blow up a few hundred or even a few thousand. In a country of 320 million, that just isn't significant. Russia and China aren't going to start a war with anyone, let alone the U.S.

The ONLY threat to the U.S. is from within, from it's own ruling elite who are steadily dismantling the Constitution and arming the government for the sole purpose of resisting and killing the people when they finally arrive at the inescapable conclusion that that government is a tyrannical impostor and usurper of the U.S. Constitution.

History shows us time and time again that nations fall from internal rot, which opens the door to invaders. The U.S. is a nation that condones mass murder via abortion, widespread drug use, elevation of sexual dysfunctionality to some sort of preferred life style, destruction of the family and mass dependence on government handouts and the wanton printing of money to pay for those handouts.

Were it in closer proximity to the "barbarians" they would already be knocking at the door. I suppose you could count that as a blessing.

Chris
02-24-2013, 07:57 PM
That country class vs ruling class articale I posted above, America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution (http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print), says back then, three years ago, one-third the electorate supported the ruling class. But if big government is in cahoots with big business who needs electorate support, really matters little if a Dem or Rep is elected.

Still...

http://i.snag.gy/eq09e.jpg

Deadwood
02-24-2013, 08:42 PM
If the country were truly in jeopardy, yes, obviously.

But not for any of the wars the US has waged since 1946.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 09:25 PM
So it look like many here do not think that 911 was an attack?

It also looks like many beleive that we just need to reason with those that would consider doing evil, and if they start attacking and trying to build a war machine like 1930's germany we should just wait until the arrive on the shores, before we decide to defend ourselves.

I think it would do well to remember that evil must be defeated, not apeased

http://quotationsbook.com/quote/46369/

Chloe
02-24-2013, 09:30 PM
So it look like many here do not think that 911 was an attack?

It also looks like many beleive that we just need to reason with those that would consider doing evil, and if they start attacking and trying to build a war machine like 1930's germany we should just wait until the arrive on the shores, before we decide to defend ourselves.

I think it would do well to remember that evil must be defeated, not apeased

http://quotationsbook.com/quote/46369/

9/11 was an attack but it does not justify endless war in my opinion nor a constant sacrifice of lives on either side

Peter1469
02-24-2013, 10:03 PM
9/11 was an attack but it does not justify endless war in my opinion nor a constant sacrifice of lives on either side

Of course it did. We should just have fought the wars better.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:08 PM
Of course it did. We should just have fought the wars better.

We should have fought a war, not a nation building police action!

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:08 PM
Of course it did. We should just have fought the wars better.

But even if the wars were fought better we would still be fighting a war on terrorism wouldn't we?

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:11 PM
But even if the wars were fought better we would still be fighting a war on terrorism wouldn't we?

So what is the alternative?

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:12 PM
So what is the alternative?

back on 9/11 or now?

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:19 PM
So what is the alternative?

The alternative to endless war is us looking in the mirror one day and realizing that it's not always "them" that is the problem. That will start the alternative.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:22 PM
The alternative to endless war is us looking in the mirror one day and realizing that it's not always "them" that is the problem. That will start the alternative.

So you are willing to convert and follow their way of life?

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:23 PM
So you are willing to convert and follow their way of life?

It's not that black and white in my opinion.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:25 PM
That is how black and white it is! In reality! though I totally understand why people do not want to beleive it!

It is the way that we feel about life, liberty, and freedom. all things that go against the things that they hold dear!

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:27 PM
That is how black and white it is! In reality! though I totally understand why people do not want to beleive it!

It is the way that we feel about life, liberty, and freedom. all things that go against the things that they hold dear!

Being a more moral country around the world will not result in me being forced to convert to islam. I'm sorry but I just don't believe that.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:32 PM
Like I said and have posted articles form people that study the situation. the lifestyle of the West spells the end of the fundamentalist Islamic religion!

but there is an alternative provided by the Koran! But I am not inclined to loosing my head!

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:34 PM
Like I said and have posted articles form people that study the situation. the lifestyle of the West spells the end of the fundamentalist Islamic religion!

but there is an alternative provided by the Koran! But I am not inclined to loosing my head!

Our lifestyle doesn't really threaten anything in my opinion. Our military and economic power that we force around the world certainly does though.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:41 PM
Our lifestyle doesn't really threaten anything in my opinion. Our military and economic power that we force around the world certainly does though.

Well if things keep going as well as they are now (rehab on my ankle) I should be heading back in June to teach a 4 week class, would you like to come with me and maybe you can explain it to them!

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:48 PM
Well if things keep going as well as they are now (rehab on my ankle) I should be heading back in June to teach a 4 week class, would you like to come with me and maybe you can explain it to them!

Who would I be explaining it to?

Cigar
02-24-2013, 10:51 PM
Anyone who doesn't like it is free get the fuck out.

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:54 PM
Who would I be explaining it to?

Well if you want results I would say you had better explain it to their religious leaders, as they ahve the real power and they are the ones that run the scholls for the boys of the country that teach them that they west is trying to destroy their way of life and just how evil the American Culture is!

Of course you will not want to let is slip that you are jewish, and you might want to invest in some things that cover your head!

zelmo1234
02-24-2013, 10:55 PM
Anyone who doesn't like it is free get the fuck out.

Amen Brother, When are you going to be in Detroit with your club, was the the woodward cruise?

Chloe
02-24-2013, 10:58 PM
Well if you want results I would say you had better explain it to their religious leaders, as they ahve the real power and they are the ones that run the scholls for the boys of the country that teach them that they west is trying to destroy their way of life and just how evil the American Culture is!

Of course you will not want to let is slip that you are jewish, and you might want to invest in some things that cover your head!

Well no you mentioned in 4 weeks you were going to go teach something and asked me if I would explain it to them. I was just wondering who "them" is.

GrumpyDog
02-25-2013, 02:56 AM
If the would be invaders, were seeking only to burn down Wash.D.C. it would be difficult not to join in and help them, especially, if the Congress were locked in their offices at the time of burning.

However, being the humane kind of person I am, I would suggest to the invaders, that they let the Congressional pigs go, and let them be shot by the gunowners, as they try to escape the flames.

This way, as they die, they can reassure themselves that their gun ban legislation would have made all the difference in the outcome.

Cigar
02-25-2013, 08:15 AM
Washington is only a problem when there's a Democratic President.

Before then, if you didn't support the President and his Administration, you were called "Cut-n-Runners, "weak" or "traders" ... along with the usual tired standbys ... Marxist, Socialist, Communist ... Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla

lynn
02-25-2013, 09:30 AM
I would die for my country if all citizens agreed to fight for their freedoms they once had or come up with a new way of running this country without corrupt politicians or in the name of greed.

Chris
02-25-2013, 11:35 PM
Washington is only a problem when there's a Democratic President.

Before then, if you didn't support the President and his Administration, you were called "Cut-n-Runners, "weak" or "traders" ... along with the usual tired standbys ... Marxist, Socialist, Communist ... Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla

BS, cigar, the ruling class, Dem or Rep, is the problem.

littlejohn
02-26-2013, 08:06 AM
There was a time when the answer was unquestionably yes, but now, the answer is "it depends."
I would absolutey not participate in a foreign intervention or retaliation. I would likely not openly resist a foreign invader.

so I guess the specific answer to the question is "maybe" /doubtful.

There are contingencies internal to the US which might find me manning my post. Lets hope it does not come to that, but wise to be prepared.

Peter1469
02-26-2013, 08:53 AM
There was a time when the answer was unquestionably yes, but now, the answer is "it depends."
I would absolutey not participate in a foreign intervention or retaliation. I would likely not openly resist a foreign invader.

so I guess the specific answer to the question is "maybe" /doubtful.

There are contingencies internal to the US which might find me manning my post. Lets hope it does not come to that, but wise to be prepared.


Welcome to tPF!