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View Full Version : Melting sea ice will allow ice-strengthened vessels to sail directly over the pole



Cigar
03-04-2013, 03:30 PM
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/7/22/1248271669205/Arctic-exploring-ship-rea-001.jpg

Ships should be able to sail directly over the north pole by the middle of this century, considerably reducing the costs of trade between Europe and China but posing new economic, strategic and environmental challenges for governments, according to scientists. The dramatic reduction in the thickness and extent of late summer sea ice that has taken place in each of the last seven years has already made it possible for some ice-strengthened ships to travel across the north of Russia via the "northern sea route". Last year a total of 46 ships made the trans-Arctic passage, mostly escorted at considerable cost by Russian icebreakers.

But by 2050, say Laurence C. Smith and Scott R. Stephenson at the University of California in the journal PNAS on Monday, ordinary vessels should be able to travel easily along the northern sea route, and moderately ice-strengthened ships should be able to take the shortest possible route between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, passing over the pole itself. The easiest time would be in September, when annual sea ice cover in the Arctic Ocean is at its lowest extent.

"The emergence of a … corridor directly over the north pole indicates that sea ice will become sufficiently thin such that a critical technical threshold is surpassed, and the shortest great circle route thus becomes feasible, for ships with moderate ice-breaking capability," says the paper.

"The prospect of common open water ships, which comprise the vast majority of the global fleet, entering the Arctic Ocean in late summer, and even its remote central basin by moderately ice-strengthened vessels heightens the urgency for a mandatory International Maritime Organisation regulatory framework to ensure adequate environmental protections, vessel safety standards, and search-and-rescue capability," it adds.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Environment/Pix/pictures/2013/3/4/1362419155852/Arctic-shipping-routes-001.jpg

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/04/ships-sail-north-pole-2050


Looking on the bright side ... maybe by 2075 ... ships will sail directly to Chicago :grin:

Peter1469
03-04-2013, 06:13 PM
Booze cruise? :cool2:

Chloe
03-04-2013, 07:34 PM
Yet the sad and frustrating thing is that there are people who don't believe that these glaciers, ice caps, and ice sheets are melting.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 07:47 PM
Yet the sad and frustrating thing is that there are people who don't believe that these glaciers, ice caps, and ice sheets are melting.

It's not that anyone does not believe they're melting, it's that that we don't believe that man had anything to do with it. The glacial records show that the earth goes thru periodic Ice Ages and warm spells. This melting would happen whether man ever existed or not. the only problem is the left trying to make money by saying that this is all caused by man. it's not. Climate change is natural and cyclic.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 08:23 PM
It's not that anyone does not believe they're melting, it's that that we don't believe that man had anything to do with it. The glacial records show that the earth goes thru periodic Ice Ages and warm spells. This melting would happen whether man ever existed or not. the only problem is the left trying to make money by saying that this is all caused by man. it's not. Climate change is natural and cyclic.

There are cycles sure, but that does not mean that humans can't have a negative affect or even influence aspects of the climate through our irresponsible behavior.

Peter1469
03-04-2013, 08:31 PM
There are cycles sure, but that does not mean that humans can't have a negative affect or even influence aspects of the climate through our irresponsible behavior.

Not enough to take trillions of dollars from honest people for pet projects.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 08:33 PM
Not enough to take trillions of dollars from honest people for pet projects.

I don't think helping the environment by trying to get off of fossil fuels is a pet project though

Peter1469
03-04-2013, 08:34 PM
I don't think helping the environment by trying to get off of fossil fuels is a pet project though

Me neither. But my plan wouldn't costs anyone anything. Beyond normal economic activity.

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 08:38 PM
Yet the sad and frustrating thing is that there are people who don't believe that these glaciers, ice caps, and ice sheets are melting.
My concern is what happens to the polar bears - irrespective of whether the melt is natural or unnatural?

Chloe
03-04-2013, 08:41 PM
My concern is what happens to the polar bears - irrespective of whether the melt is natural or unnatural?

Just like grizzly bears and black bears their habitat keeps shrinking and shrinking.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:10 PM
Animal species will die out or expand. That's nature. Polar bears are no longer being hunted, if the ice melts they die. So be it. We'll keep a few alive in zoos, we can keep gentic material for cloning. We can do what we can, but you can't stop nature, no matter hw much money you take out of the mouths of families that could put it to better use.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:12 PM
Animal species will die out or expand. That's nature. Polar bears are no longer being hunted, if the ice melts they die. So be it. We'll keep a few alive in zoos, we can keep gentic material for cloning. We can do what we can, but you can't stop nature, no matter hw much money you take out of the mouths of families that could put it to better use.

It' apathy though that results in species going extinct. Humans are to blame for a large amount of extinct species. It's not something we should be proud of or just scoff at in my opinion. Polar bears are important to their habitats and should be protected any way that we can. Do you really want your grandkids or something to only be able to see an animal in a zoo and not out in the wild?

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:17 PM
It' apathy though that results in species going extinct. Humans are to blame for a large amount of extinct species. It's not something we should be proud of or just scoff at in my opinion. Polar bears are important to their habitats and should be protected any way that we can. Do you really want your grandkids or something to only be able to see an animal in a zoo and not out in the wild?
We can't stop the ice from meltng, no matter how much money we throw at it.
Man is responsible for a large amount of extinction? Did we kill all the Dinosaurs? did we kill the Neanderthals? (well, maybe we did, maybe we didn't) Would you rather have a world devoid of humans? That is a liberal dream, after all.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:19 PM
We can't stop the ice from meltng, no matter how much money we throw at it.
Man is responsible for a large amount of extinction? Did we kill all the Dinosaurs? did we kill the Neanderthals? (well, maybe we did, maybe we didn't) Would you rather have a world devoid of humans? That is a liberal dream, after all.

Humans are a species that could go extinct as well. We aren't above our own destructive nature. All I am saying is that we shouldn't just condemn something to extinction out of apathy.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:24 PM
Humans are a species that could go extinct as well. We aren't above our own destructive nature. All I am saying is that we shouldn't just condemn something to extinction out of apathy.Again, we can't stop the ice from melting. Aside from putting them in zoos, what do you propose? Running around screaming "Climate Change" is not going to accomplish anything. Taxing the hell out of people will do nothing. While we are not responsible for the ice melting, neither can we stop it. All we can do is take money from people who need it. The appearance of doing something does not, in fact, change anything.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:27 PM
Again, we can't stop the ice from melting. Aside from putting them in zoos, what do you propose? Running around screaming "Climate Change" is not going to accomplish anything. Taxing the hell out of people will do nothing. While we are not responsible for the ice melting, neither can we stop it. All we can do is take money from people who need it. The appearance of doing something does not, in fact, change anything.

Well we can stop pumping millions upon millions of pounds of pollution into the atmosphere every day. That would be a pretty good start in my opinion.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:31 PM
Well we can stop pumping millions upon millions of pounds of pollution into the atmosphere every day. That would be a pretty good start in my opinion.

Sure it would. hey, let's save the polar bears but let's let thousands of people lose their jobs and have kids starve so that you can feel better about the environment. Helluva trade off. Animals/environment over people. Typical.

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 09:32 PM
Again, we can't stop the ice from melting. Aside from putting them in zoos, what do you propose? Running around screaming "Climate Change" is not going to accomplish anything. Taxing the hell out of people will do nothing. While we are not responsible for the ice melting, neither can we stop it. All we can do is take money from people who need it. The appearance of doing something does not, in fact, change anything.
Saving polar bears would fall to more than one country, the US, Canada and Russia can pool resources to save them.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:34 PM
Sure it would. hey, let's save the polar bears but let's let thousands of people lose their jobs and have kids starve so that you can feel better about the environment. Helluva trade off. Animals/environment over people. Typical.

That's not what I am saying

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:35 PM
Saving polar bears would fall to more than one country, the US, Canada and Russia can pool resources to save them.
Again, if the ice is, in fact, melting. where would you put them if not in zoos?

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:36 PM
That's not what I am saying

That's what it boils down to IMO.

Peter1469
03-04-2013, 09:40 PM
Again, if the ice is, in fact, melting. where would you put them if not in zoos?

They would walk south and their hair would turn brown and we would call them grizzly bears.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:42 PM
They would walk south and their hair would turn brown and we would call them grizzly bears.

And grizzly bears will continue to be forced north and eventually both will find themselves competing for the same small patch of forest until all that's left is the last bear.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:44 PM
And grizzly bears will continue to be forced north and eventually both will find themselves competing for the same small patch of forest until all that's left is the last bear.
Destroy human habitat to preserve bear habitat?

Peter1469
03-04-2013, 09:44 PM
And grizzly bears will continue to be forced north and eventually both will find themselves competing for the same small patch of forest until all that's left is the last bear.

Maybe boy bear will meet girl bear and you know do the birds and the bees stuff.

Oh wait, you are too young for that. Forget I said anything.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 09:46 PM
Destroy human habitat to preserve bear habitat?

We could easily slow our expansion. Grizzly bears used to be over a huge portion of the United States, but now they are barely confined to a small corner. At some point we need to look at our footprint and do what's best for all life and not just ourselves.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 09:53 PM
I doubt that you're a creationist, so that makes you a darwinian. If so, then you would subscribe to the concept of survival of the fittest.
Wolves used to roam the countryside. Would you bring them back?
Would you be willing to tear down your parent's house and return the land to the wilderness? How about Portland? Would you be will to tear it down and re-introduce bears to that area? Where would it end, Chloe? Would you have us abandon our cities and move back into caves?
http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1103/liberal-vision-of-the-future-so-simple-a-caveman-could-under-political-poster-1300152387.jpg

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 09:59 PM
Again, if the ice is, in fact, melting. where would you put them if not in zoos?
As the icecaps melt, it will be a matter of relocating them to icecap areas where they can survive. This will give them time to adapt.

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 10:02 PM
I doubt that you're a creationist, so that makes you a darwinian. If so, then you would subscribe to the concept of survival of the fittest.
Wolves used to roam the countryside. Would you bring them back?
Would you be willing to tear down your parent's house and return the land to the wilderness? How about Portland? Would you be will to tear it down and re-introduce bears to that area? Where would it end, Chloe? Would you have us abandon our cities and move back into caves?
http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1103/liberal-vision-of-the-future-so-simple-a-caveman-could-under-political-poster-1300152387.jpg
Life on the planet is connected. The demise of the top level predators is a predictor of what may happen to humans.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 10:10 PM
I doubt that you're a creationist, so that makes you a darwinian. If so, then you would subscribe to the concept of survival of the fittest.
Wolves used to roam the countryside. Would you bring them back?
Would you be willing to tear down your parent's house and return the land to the wilderness? How about Portland? Would you be will to tear it down and re-introduce bears to that area? Where would it end, Chloe? Would you have us abandon our cities and move back into caves?
http://www.politifake.org/image/political/1103/liberal-vision-of-the-future-so-simple-a-caveman-could-under-political-poster-1300152387.jpg

I don't think you are being very fair right now

Agravan
03-04-2013, 10:23 PM
I don't think you are being very fair right now

What's not fair? Refuting your arguments?
Life in the real world is not fair.

Chloe
03-04-2013, 10:31 PM
What's not fair? Refuting your arguments?
Life in the real world is not fair.

I just don't like how you are making my argument look silly by comparing it to cavemen and stuff like that

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 10:33 PM
I don't think you are being very fair right now
Chloe, many people feel that they are divorced from the planet that they live on. They are persuaded that the planet is their domain and that they are independent of all other forms of life. They don't know what the most primitive people have always known - that there is a balance to life and if you throw off that balance for too long, then human kind will indeed face the scourge of locust, vermin and other fast breeding life forms that will lay waste to the the environment. The current solution, because it is already happening is to use poisons, chemicals and genetic modification to hold back nature, but guess what all of these things are either killing people or making them sick. Nature will eventually have her way. If everything is destroyed, she will start again minus people.

Agravan
03-04-2013, 10:48 PM
Chloe, many people feel that they are divorced from the planet that they live on. They are persuaded that the planet is their domain and that they are independent of all other forms of life. They don't know what the most primitive people have always known - that there is a balance to life and if you throw off that balance for too long, then human kind will indeed face the scourge of locust, vermin and other fast breeding life forms that will lay waste to the the environment. The current solution, because it is already happening is to use poisons, chemicals and genetic modification to hold back nature, but guess what all of these things are either killing people or making them sick. Nature will eventually have her way. If everything is destroyed, she will start again minus people.

No one said we aren't an integral part of nature, we are. but there are some things we cannot control (climate change, asteroids, etc) no matter how much teethgnashing, wailing or taxation we do. Some of us are able to see that, others can't or refuse to.

Dr. Who
03-04-2013, 11:19 PM
No one said we aren't an integral part of nature, we are. but there are some things we cannot control (climate change, asteroids, etc) no matter how much teethgnashing, wailing or taxation we do. Some of us are able to see that, others can't or refuse to.
No, some don't think that the methodology of farming or the deliberate killing off of top level predators does any damage to the environment. There are things within our control, whether or not climate change is natural or a result of human habitation.

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 01:07 AM
My concern is what happens to the polar bears - irrespective of whether the melt is natural or unnatural?

Ok then those that think that the caps are melting and that polar bears are dying should be happy!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/jan/10/inconvenient-truth-ice-cap-growing/

Now I am sure that last years warm winter causes some melting, and this winter is a little on the warm side.

As far as the polar bear? great news on that front as well.

http://www.ibtimes.com/polar-bear-population-higher-20th-century-something-fishy-about-extinction-fears-821075

If you want people to take the global warming, and or clamate change seriously, you can't base it on bull shit! and lies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMqc7PCJ-nc

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 01:10 AM
And grizzly bears will continue to be forced north and eventually both will find themselves competing for the same small patch of forest until all that's left is the last bear.

And yet the populations of both are increasing!

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 01:17 AM
Just like grizzly bears and black bears their habitat keeps shrinking and shrinking.

Again if you want people to take you seriously you have to base your opnion in fact

http://blogs.usda.gov/2012/03/20/black-bear-populations-swell-in-mississippi-with-the-help-nrcs-and-its-partners/

Thought I would use Mississippi, as they are not know for being a cold state. but populations are increasing almost everywhere, due mostly to those murderning hunters!

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/translating-uncle-sam/stories/are-grizzly-bears-becoming-unbearable

The Grizzly bear is actually eating itself out of house and home.

And I have already posted the increase in Polar bears. which by the way is the only amimal on planet earth that considers humans to be food and will actively hunt us!

So you want me to save the bears? OK looks like us hunters are doing a pretty good job

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 01:32 AM
OK if you want people to get behind the enviromental movement, then you have to do a few things in my opnion!

#1 You can not hurt people. Inacting policiea that devistate the poor, middle class and the elderly is not compassion is is opression! You can not just inact laws that couse pain on people, so you can feel good about yourself.

#2 You can't say that you care about the enviroment if you inact policies that cause business to close in the USA, and open in places like Mexico, China, and India, where they will actually polute more, because of the lack of enviromental protections. If you are for these polices then you must admit that you are for more world polution, so you can feel good about your actions here in the USA

#3 It is not enviromentally frendly to support things like plug in electric cars, that actually have a larger carbon foot print than a Hy0brid, or an energy efficient car.

#4 you can not base your concerns on facts that do not exist, or force technology on people that makes life worse.

This is what the green movement of today is doing and it is why they are getting more and more resistance.

If you want to get to a cleaner planet, they you do the R and D that creates the technology that actually inhances peoples lives and is the inexpensive alternative to fossil fuels.

Then and only then the people of the world will demand it,

Greenies are putting the cart before the horse again!

Forrest
03-05-2013, 06:06 AM
Time for Great Powers to initiate reductions in third world population centers.
Bio-warfare cost effective. Consider Calcutta, Mexico City, Bombay, Detroit.

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 06:19 AM
Well Ok but Detroit is not much of a population center anymore

The problem with that is who do we kill next, maybe me or you?

So it is quit stupid when you think about it

Cigar
03-05-2013, 08:51 AM
Incredible video of the largest glacier ever filmed just disintegrating, the total size of lower Manhattan and taller than it's tallest buildings.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3VTgIPoGU&feature=player_embedded

zelmo1234
03-05-2013, 09:15 AM
That tens to happen to ice and snow when it moves south. but the truth is that the ice pack was increasing through most of the first decade, it has decreased some over the past 2 years because it is warmer. And it is likely to increase in the next few years,

Back when I was a kid we used to call it weather!

Cigar
03-05-2013, 09:55 AM
That tens to happen to ice and snow when it moves south. but the truth is that the ice pack was increasing through most of the first decade, it has decreased some over the past 2 years because it is warmer. And it is likely to increase in the next few years,

Back when I was a kid we used to call it weather!

Was that before or after 8 Tracks :grin:

Peter1469
03-05-2013, 05:25 PM
Time for Great Powers to initiate reductions in third world population centers.
Bio-warfare cost effective. Consider Calcutta, Mexico City, Bombay, Detroit.

Some would consider that to be murder or genocide. How do you contain the bio-agent and prevent it from affecting the people you don't want to kill?

Dr. Who
03-05-2013, 06:04 PM
Time for Great Powers to initiate reductions in third world population centers.
Bio-warfare cost effective. Consider Calcutta, Mexico City, Bombay, Detroit.
That is really quite an obscene thing to say.