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Chris
03-06-2013, 08:50 PM
Wait a minute, where are the Democrats?

It takes a libertarian...


Kentucky Senator Rand Paul's hours-long, multi-senator filibuster of John Brennan's CIA director nomination has accomplished a rare feat: questions about targeted killing and the drone program have vaulted from the fringes to the forefront of Washington conversation, and it's lasted nearly an entire day.

Civil libertarians have, finally, arrived.

"You would hope that the question of whether the president can on his own authority kill citizens in the U.S. would have come to the forefront as soon as it was floated," said David Boaz, executive vice president of the libertarian Cato Institute. "But it seems like it took this particular circumstance to get people talking about it."

Paul began his filibuster at 11:47 a.m. with the promise that "I will speak until I can no longer speak." Over the course of the afternoon, seven other Republican senators and one Democrat, Oregon's Ron Wyden, have joined in the filibuster that has revolved around constitutional debate over whether or not the administration can use its authority to turn drones on U.S. citizens within U.S. territory.

Paul has name-checked a number of writers in the progressive libertarian space including Guardian blogger Glenn Greenwald, The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf, Firedoglake's Kevin Gozstola, and Esquire's Charles P. Pierce. He has promised to continue until the administration guarantees that it will not kill U.S. citizens within the United States. And his filibuster is undoubtedly the political story of the day, in mainstream news and otherwise.

@ Rand Paul's Filibuster Gives Civil Liberties A Rare Washington Moment (http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/rand-pauls-filibuster-gives-civil-liberties-a-rare-washingto)

Chris
03-06-2013, 09:06 PM
Hour 1...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4MwjvOxSgic#!

Hour 2...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E9J_UXn5dZo

Peter1469
03-06-2013, 09:10 PM
This is true American statesmanship. I posted, a while back, an article about this controversial program- of targeting American citizens for assassination.

It is amazing how the press ignores it.

Private Pickle
03-06-2013, 09:13 PM
Wait a minute, where are the Democrats?

It takes a libertarian...



@ Rand Paul's Filibuster Gives Civil Liberties A Rare Washington Moment (http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/rand-pauls-filibuster-gives-civil-liberties-a-rare-washingto)

That guy has a chance.

Peter1469
03-06-2013, 09:22 PM
No with this fight. But he is displaying leadership qualities that are utterly lacking in that legislative body.

Private Pickle
03-06-2013, 09:24 PM
No with this fight. But he is displaying leadership qualities that are utterly lacking in that legislative body.

The legislative body doesn't vote in the President.

Peter1469
03-06-2013, 09:25 PM
The legislative body doesn't vote in the President.

Very good. That is correct.

Cigar
03-07-2013, 08:25 AM
I disagree with Ran Paul most of the time, but he undoubtedly gained the respect of most Progressives and Liberals yesterday, or at least the ones I know personally. This isn't about Obama, it's about the Power of The Presidency and what that power should be used for, something we all learned about from over 4 thousand dead souls wasted over a undeclared War and received nothing in return from it. Ran also had the balls to express his convictions and not just obstruct for the sake of obstruction, something any idiot can do reading a phone-book for hours on end. I wish the rest of Congress would have the courage to filibuster this way and govern like adults.

I have no doubt that President Barack Obama won't use deadly force on his fellow Americans in America, but I wouldn't put it past any American who dislikes other people or a segment of their fellow Americans so much that they would take up arms against it's own countrymen. These are the so called Americans we should be concerned with.

But I have no doubt that if Timothy McVeigh was a block away from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and on his way to blow it up, and the only thing between him and a Snipers Bullet is simply pulling the trigger, there wouldn't be anyone disputing taking him out immediately without Judge, Jury or Trial.

My point is ... never say never, but defiantly have solid rules of engagement, here in America and everywhere else.

Peter1469
03-07-2013, 10:03 AM
I disagree with Ran Paul most of the time, but he undoubtedly gained the respect of most Progressives and Liberals yesterday, or at least the ones I know personally. This isn't about Obama, it's about the Power of The Presidency and what that power should be used for, something we all learned about from over 4 thousand dead souls wasted over a undeclared War and received nothing in return from it. Ran also had the balls to express his convictions and not just obstruct for the sake of obstruction, something any idiot can do reading a phone-book for hours on end. I wish the rest of Congress would have the courage to filibuster this way and govern like adults.

I have no doubt that President Barack Obama won't use deadly force on his fellow Americans in America, but I wouldn't put it past any American who dislikes other people or a segment of their fellow Americans so much that they would take up arms against it's own countrymen. These are the so called Americans we should be concerned with.

But I have no doubt that if Timothy McVeigh was a block away from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and on his way to blow it up, and the only thing between him and a Snipers Bullet is simply pulling the trigger, there wouldn't be anyone disputing taking him out immediately without Judge, Jury or Trial.

My point is ... never say never, but defiantly have solid rules of engagement, here in America and everywhere else.

Very good points. To add to them:

This filibuster must be seen in the light of Ted Cruz's questioning of Eric Holder the day prior. Video at this link at post 19: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/10765-Chilling-new-memo-targeted-killing-of-Americans-legal

Now to Timothy McVeigh. International laws of war don't apply in this case, but the answer is the same: if the criminal / enemy combatant (with American citizenship acting inside America) is in the process of causing serious harm, he can be engaged- even killed. If he is not in the process of causing serious harm, he cannot be attacked and killed- he must be given due process.

This is different from war against non American citizens. Enemy combatants are fair and legal targets at all times (until they or hors de combat). They can be taking a dump in an outhouse- if you find them you can kill them- legally.


Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are outstanding men who should be able to unite reasonable progressives with fiscal conservatives. Expect the MSM to ramp up the character assassinations on these men.

Private Pickle
03-07-2013, 10:04 AM
Very good. That is correct.

Are you talking to yourself on this one?

Cigar
03-07-2013, 10:18 AM
Very good points. To add to them:

This filibuster must be seen in the light of Ted Cruz's questioning of Eric Holder the day prior. Video at this link at post 19: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/10765-Chilling-new-memo-targeted-killing-of-Americans-legal

Now to Timothy McVeigh. International laws of war don't apply in this case, but the answer is the same: if the criminal / enemy combatant (with American citizenship acting inside America) is in the process of causing serious harm, he can be engaged- even killed. If he is not in the process of causing serious harm, he cannot be attacked and killed- he must be given due process.

This is different from war against non American citizens. Enemy combatants are fair and legal targets at all times (until they or hors de combat). They can be taking a dump in an outhouse- if you find them you can kill them- legally.


Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are outstanding men who should be able to unite reasonable progressives with fiscal conservatives. Expect the MSM to ramp up the character assassinations on these men.

... as long as they don't "say" stupid things ... :)

Remember, it's usually their own words that get them in trouble.

KC
03-07-2013, 01:24 PM
Rand Paul is the man. If he doesn't get the nomination in 2016 we're screwed.

Cigar
03-07-2013, 01:28 PM
Rand Paul is the man. If he doesn't get the nomination in 2016 we're screwed.

I hope he get's it ...

Although Bush against Clinton would be fun to watch

KC
03-07-2013, 01:31 PM
I hope he get's it ...

Although Bush against Clinton would be fun to watch

No, Bush will have his brother's reputation to battle with. The mainstream voter is tired of war hawk Republicans and Jeb Bush will have a hard time getting rid of that image.

simpsonofpg
03-07-2013, 01:39 PM
If the rule of law is disregarded all we have left in anachary. Which laws to I chose to obey and which can I break. I don't want individuals making thoses decisions. We have a mess on our hands but that is not the answer.

Chris
03-07-2013, 05:42 PM
I disagree with Ran Paul most of the time, but he undoubtedly gained the respect of most Progressives and Liberals yesterday, or at least the ones I know personally. This isn't about Obama, it's about the Power of The Presidency and what that power should be used for, something we all learned about from over 4 thousand dead souls wasted over a undeclared War and received nothing in return from it. Ran also had the balls to express his convictions and not just obstruct for the sake of obstruction, something any idiot can do reading a phone-book for hours on end. I wish the rest of Congress would have the courage to filibuster this way and govern like adults.

I have no doubt that President Barack Obama won't use deadly force on his fellow Americans in America, but I wouldn't put it past any American who dislikes other people or a segment of their fellow Americans so much that they would take up arms against it's own countrymen. These are the so called Americans we should be concerned with.

But I have no doubt that if Timothy McVeigh was a block away from the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and on his way to blow it up, and the only thing between him and a Snipers Bullet is simply pulling the trigger, there wouldn't be anyone disputing taking him out immediately without Judge, Jury or Trial.

My point is ... never say never, but defiantly have solid rules of engagement, here in America and everywhere else.

Great post, it is indeed not about Obama but the power of the office and how it's been exceeding the powers granted it for a long time.

Chris
03-07-2013, 05:44 PM
Rand Paul is the man. If he doesn't get the nomination in 2016 we're screwed.

Too soon. Needs more seasoning.

KC
03-07-2013, 05:46 PM
Too soon. Needs more seasoning.

Seasoning doesn't make a politician better at governing, it makes him/her better at politics. Politics is the problem.

Threeup63
03-07-2013, 06:01 PM
Here's the joke, "13 hrs of filibuster:applause: BS, Rand Paul," this is why people look down their noses at Ky.:afro:

Chris
03-07-2013, 06:16 PM
Seasoning doesn't make a politician better at governing, it makes him/her better at politics. Politics is the problem.

But how will you know how well he'll withstand the usual political pressures other than with time?

KC
03-07-2013, 06:23 PM
But how will you know how well he'll withstand the usual political pressures other than with time?

We won't. One thing is certain, that politicians are more likely to develop the habits that keep them in Washington the longer they are in Washington. Those habits are often the ones that run counter to Paul's idealism.

Peter1469
03-07-2013, 10:15 PM
If the rule of law is disregarded all we have left in anachary. Which laws to I chose to obey and which can I break. I don't want individuals making thoses decisions. We have a mess on our hands but that is not the answer.

That is what checks and balances are for. This assassination program violates that.

Chris
03-07-2013, 10:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1_9nSzG_hk

Peter1469
03-07-2013, 11:47 PM
It is amazing how the MSM is ignoring this.