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View Full Version : The shaky science behind same-sex marriage



Chris
03-17-2013, 04:21 PM
Not easy to summarize and do justice so you might want to read the enite op-ed @ The shaky science behind same-sex marriage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-the-shaky-science-behind-same-sex-marriage/2013/03/15/ccdbe82a-8cc9-11e2-9f54-f3fdd70acad2_story.html):


When on March 26 the Supreme Court hears oral arguments about whether California’s ban on same-sex marriages violates the constitutional right to “equal protection of the laws,” these arguments will invoke the intersection of law and social science. The court should tread cautiously, if at all, on this dark and bloody ground.

The Obama administration says California’s law expresses “prejudice” that is “impermissible.” But same-sex marriage is a matter about which intelligent people reasonably disagree, partly because so little is known about its consequences.

When a federal judge asked the lawyer defending California’s ban what harm same-sex marriage would do to the state’s interests in “the procreation purpose” of heterosexual marriage, the lawyer said, “I don’t know.” This was mistakenly portrayed as a damaging admission. Both sides should acknowledge that, so far, no one can know.

...Unlike the physical sciences, the social sciences can rarely settle questions using “controlled and replicable experiments.” Today “there neither are nor could possibly be any scientifically valid studies from which to predict the effects of a family structure that is so new and so rare.” Hence there can be no “scientific basis for constitutionalizing same-sex marriage.”

...Since Moynihan wrote the above in 1979, the politicization of the social sciences has become even more pronounced, particularly in matters of “lifestyle liberalism.” Hence the need for judicial wariness about social science that purports to prove propositions — e.g., that same-sex marriage is, or is not, harmful to children or society — for which there cannot yet be decisive evidence.

If California’s law is judged by legal reasoning, rather than by social science ostensibly proving that the state has no compelling interest served by banning same-sex marriage, the law may still be overturned on equal-protection grounds. But such a victory for gay rights, grounded on constitutional values, and hence cast in the vocabulary of natural rights philosophy, would at least be more stable than one resting uneasily on the shiftable sand of premature social science conclusions.

IOW, as I read it, there's no strong evidence from science pro or con on marriage of gays. But there could be grounds to repeal restrictions based on legal equal-protection.


(Note, this thread falls under the forum area "On the Serious Side" so please contribute rather than detract from topic.)

Dr. Who
03-17-2013, 06:10 PM
Not easy to summarize and do justice so you might want to read the enite op-ed @ The shaky science behind same-sex marriage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-the-shaky-science-behind-same-sex-marriage/2013/03/15/ccdbe82a-8cc9-11e2-9f54-f3fdd70acad2_story.html):



IOW, as I read it, there's no strong evidence from science pro or con on marriage of gays. But there could be grounds to repeal restrictions based on legal equal-protection.


(Note, this thread falls under the forum area "On the Serious Side" so please contribute rather than detract from topic.)

There is a presumption that the only reason for marriage is procreation, which ignores the hundreds and thousands of couples who marry but don't want children, never mind the millions who cannot have children. When septogenarians marry, does anyone contemplate children? Marriage, while it certainly includes procreation, does not exclude non-procreation. Therefore the sexuality of the couple should be irrelevant. Should same sex couples be allowed to rear children? If they are loving parents, why not? We don't stop warring, selfish and combative parents from rearing children. What children need above all else are parents who put the child's need above their own. They need love and guidance. I don't see where sexuality is a barrier.

Chris
03-17-2013, 06:14 PM
There is that but the article also looks at marriage as a unit in the structure of society, but here too there's no significant evidence pro or con the effect of removung marriage restrictions for gays.

Dr. Who
03-17-2013, 07:05 PM
There is that but the article also looks at marriage as a unit in the structure of society, but here too there's no significant evidence pro or con the effect of removung marriage restrictions for gays.
I suspect that they will find that over time, those who are caring and responsible parents produce similarly caring and responsible children. Sexuality is irrelevent. Besides, how many actually gay men, have lived a lie, but raised great children. Similarly how many kids have been raised by their mother and "Aunt Sally", and turned out well.

Chris
03-18-2013, 06:27 AM
Right, but the point of the OP, and I agree with it, is there is no conclusion social science evidence pro or con here, that the case must be argued on legal grounds.

Common
03-18-2013, 07:18 PM
There is a presumption that the only reason for marriage is procreation, which ignores the hundreds and thousands of couples who marry but don't want children, never mind the millions who cannot have children. When septogenarians marry, does anyone contemplate children? Marriage, while it certainly includes procreation, does not exclude non-procreation. Therefore the sexuality of the couple should be irrelevant. Should same sex couples be allowed to rear children? If they are loving parents, why not? We don't stop warring, selfish and combative parents from rearing children. What children need above all else are parents who put the child's need above their own. They need love and guidance. I don't see where sexuality is a barrier.

Not wanting children is not the same. Were not talking about allowing a man and woman who cant have children to marry, were talking about two men marrying.

Dr. Who
03-18-2013, 07:23 PM
Not wanting children is not the same. Were not talking about allowing a man and woman who cant have children to marry, were talking about two men marrying.
How would two men in a marriage be worse parents than say two uncles rearing their sister's kids. Does your sexuality affect everything in your life or only what happens in the bedroom?

Chris
03-19-2013, 10:33 AM
Interestingly Charles Murray of The Bell Curve fame came out at CPAC in favor of marriage for gays:


...“With gay marriage,” he went on, “I think the train has left the station.”

Certainly the locomotive power of the issue seemed hard to miss on a day when the top political news was Ohio Republican Senator Rob Portman’s announcement that he, too, supports gay marriage. (Richard Socarides has more on that.) While Portman’s position shifted because of his family situation—he explained publicly for the first time that his son had come out as gay—Murray said his own views had been influenced heavily by friends. “I was dead-set against gay marriage when it was first broached,” Murray said; as a fan of Edmund Burke, he regarded marriage as an ancient and indispensable cultural institution that “we shouldn’t mess with.” He used to agree with his friend Irving Kristol, the late father of neo-conservatism, that gay people wouldn’t like marriage. “ ‘Let them have it,’ ” he recounted Kristol as saying, with a chuckle. “ ‘They wont like it.’ ” Murray said that he himself used to think that “All they want is the wedding, and the party, and the honeymoon—but not this long thing we call marriage.”

But since then, Murray said, “we have acquired a number of gay and lesbian friends,” and to what he jokingly called his “dismay” as a “confident” social scientist, he learned he’d been wrong. He’d been especially influenced by the pro-gay-marriage arguments made by Jonathan Rausch, an openly gay writer for the National Journal and the Atlantic. Further, Murray said, he had discovered that the gay couples he knew with children were not just responsible parents; they were “excruciatingly responsible parents....

@ CHARLES MURRAY’S GAY-MARRIAGE SURPRISE (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/03/charles-murrays-gay-marriage-surprise.html)