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Chris
03-25-2013, 08:29 AM
Gun deaths are shaped by race in America. Whites are far more likely to shoot themselves, and African Americans are far more likely to be shot by someone else.

The statistical difference is dramatic, according to a Washington Post analysis of data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A white person is five times as likely to commit suicide with a gun as to be shot with a gun; for each African American who uses a gun to commit suicide, five are killed by other people with guns.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4504/inlinecharts2.jpg

Where a person lives matters, too. Gun deaths in urban areas are much more likely to be homicides, while suicide is far and away the dominant form of gun death in rural areas. States with the most guns per capita, such as Montana and Wyoming, have the highest suicide rates; states with low gun ownership rates, such as Massachusetts and New York, have far fewer suicides per capita.

Suicides and homicides are highly charged human dramas. Both acts shatter families, friends and sometimes communities. But the reactions are as different as black and white, and those differences shape the nationís divided attitudes toward gun control.

@ Gun deaths shaped by race in America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp/2013/03/22/gun-deaths-shaped-by-race-in-america/?hpid=z1)

Whites kill themselves while blacks kill each other. Location is another key. According to these findings.



(This is under On the Serious Side (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/6236-The-Political-Forums-Revised-Rules-and-Regulations).)

Common
03-25-2013, 02:05 PM
Social Status has the most to do with gun violence. Going back in years there were studies on gun violence by ethnicity and it was German, than Irish then Italian with highest percentage of gun violence.
Back in early 1900s up until the 60s whites were getting the death sentence far more than blacks, because of the ethnic mobsters.
I very much believe chris' chart that blacks commit far more gun crime.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:07 PM
That could certainly be a major if not the primary factor. On the other hand, some poor communities experience much less violence than others.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:09 PM
It's also of some interest that Hispanics are left out. They make a brief reference in the article but I didn't see any numbers.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:24 PM
I'd say it has more to do with poverty than race.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:30 PM
I'd say it has more to do with poverty than race.

But then race obviously has something to do with poverty. In any case, that's all tangential. The point here is that gun violence is overwhelmingly a community specific problem (i.e. black and brown communities). What will further restrictions on law abiding Americans (of all races) do to prevent the mayhem in these communities?

roadmaster
03-25-2013, 02:33 PM
I'd say it has more to do with poverty than race.

Not true, you can be poor and not use guns as an excuse.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:36 PM
Not true, you can be poor and not use guns as an excuse.

Poor rural communities don't experience the same level of violence that other communities do. Much less, in fact.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:37 PM
But then race obviously has something to do with poverty. In any case, that's all tangential. The point here is that gun violence is overwhelmingly a community specific problem (i.e. black and brown communities). What will further restrictions on law abiding Americans (of all races) do to prevent the mayhem in these communities?
It depends on what type of violence you speak of....if limiting access to weapons to mentally unstable people is doable then it should be done.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:39 PM
Not true, you can be poor and not use guns as an excuse.That didn't make any sense. Are you trying to say that poverty has no effect on robbery and violence?

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:40 PM
Poor rural communities don't experience the same level of violence that other communities do. Much less, in fact.
Got something to back that up? Not that it may not be true since there tend to be less people in rural areas therefore it's a no-brainer to expect there is less violence of the type we are speaking about.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:41 PM
It depends on what type of violence you speak of....if limiting access to weapons to mentally unstable people is doable then it should be done.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Of course it's doable. We currently do it and have been for a long time.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:42 PM
Of course it's doable. We currently do it and have been for a long time.Not hardly.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Got something to back that up? Not that it may not be true since there tend to be less people in rural areas therefore it's a no-brainer to expect there is less violence of the type we are speaking about.

Per capita. :smiley:


Mid-size Southern states seem to be the places people are trigger-happiest -- and where, of course, political opposition to gun control often runs strongest. Perhaps that's because most of the bloodletting happens in Southern cities, and it's in rural areas -- where gun violence is slight -- that gun rights are held most sacred.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/20/news/la-ol-gun-homicide-states-20121220

Keep in mind that southern states are also among the blackest. :afro:

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:45 PM
Not hardly.

You really believe there are no restrictions on mental patients buying weapons?

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:52 PM
Per capita. :smiley:



http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/20/news/la-ol-gun-homicide-states-20121220

Keep in mind that southern states are also among the blackest. :afro:
I'm not seeing anything in your post that backs you up. Gun violence is higher where population, and poverty, is highest.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:53 PM
You really believe there are no restrictions on mental patients buying weapons?
There are some but not enough. Lanza should have never had access to guns. Screening needs to be improved to prevent deadly weapons from falling into the hands of lunatics.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:55 PM
There are some but not enough. Lanza should have never had access to guns. Screening needs to be improved to prevent deadly weapons from falling into the hands of lunatics.

Lanza didn't own any guns.

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:56 PM
Lanza didn't own any guns.No, but he did have access to them and was allowed to practice at a gun range.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 02:56 PM
I'm not seeing anything in your post that backs you up. Gun violence is higher where population, and poverty, is highest.



Perhaps that's because most of the bloodletting happens in Southern cities, and it's in rural areas -- where gun violence is slight


See it now?

Ravi
03-25-2013, 02:59 PM
See it now?
I saw that. It doesn't explain why it is slight. Less people = less crime as I said.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 03:00 PM
No, but he did have access to them and was allowed to practice at a gun range.

Lanza did not own any weapons. Better still, Lanza coudl not have owned any weapons. People with a history of mental illness will be turned down. That's the way it works.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 03:05 PM
I saw that. It doesn't explain why it is slight. Less people = less crime as I said.

They don't need to explain what slight means. If there were 200 murders in a town of 10,000 gun violence would not be "slight" even though it's much less in absolute terms than a large city. :smiley:

roadmaster
03-25-2013, 03:12 PM
That didn't make any sense. Are you trying to say that poverty has no effect on robbery and violence?
Yes, poverty has nothing to do with violence.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 03:13 PM
Yes, poverty has nothing to do with violence.

I wouldn't go that far but one might ask why much poorer countries don't have similar crime rates.

roadmaster
03-25-2013, 03:19 PM
I wouldn't go that far but one might ask why much poorer countries don't have similar crime rates.
If a child is raised to believe it's wrong rich or poor than most likely they won't go towards violence. Too many kids see pimps, drug dealers as important people and have no one at home they look up to that does things the right way.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 03:19 PM
If a child is raised to believe it's wrong rich or poor than most likely they won't go towards violence. Too many kids see pimps, drug dealers as important people and have no one at home they look up to that does things the right way.

There is no doubt that the debased culture of many urban communities contributes massively to gun violence and violence overall.

Captain Obvious
03-25-2013, 05:55 PM
I didn't read the article, just the OP but what needs to be considered is environmental issues.

Those stats tell a number of different things to me on the surface.

bladimz
03-25-2013, 06:38 PM
Lanza did not own any weapons. Better still, Lanza coudl not have owned any weapons. People with a history of mental illness will be turned down. That's the way it works.
...unless they purchase from a private owner at a gun show that doesn't require background checks.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 06:48 PM
...unless they purchase from a private owner at a gun show that doesn't require background checks.

Indeed, it's called the gun how loophole for a reason and many private sellers will insist on background check. They're common at gun shows. They are somewhat rare in my area but I'm told it's quite normal.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 06:49 PM
I didn't read the article, just the OP but what needs to be considered is environmental issues.

Those stats tell a number of different things to me on the surface.

Of course. The article isn't suggesting a biological link. Such a link may actually exist, mind you, but that's not where they were going.

Captain Obvious
03-25-2013, 07:01 PM
Indeed, it's called the gun how loophole for a reason and many private sellers will insist on background check. They're common at gun shows. They are somewhat rare in my area but I'm told it's quite normal.

I've bought guns where it's taken an hour or more for the check to go through and I've bought guns at gun shows.

It's kind of surreal buying a gun at a gun show. Bought a used .22 semi a few years back. Handed the guy a buck fitty, he handed me the gun. No words were exchanged.

And that fucker never did shoot well, I tore it all apart and found this little slip of wood jammed into the stock to prop the action up.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 07:03 PM
I've bought guns where it's taken an hour or more for the check to go through and I've bought guns at gun shows.

It's kind of surreal buying a gun at a gun show. Bought a used .22 semi a few years back. Handed the guy a buck fitty, he handed me the gun. No words were exchanged.

And that fucker never did shoot well, I tore it all apart and found this little slip of wood jammed into the stock to prop the action up.

Ugh.

My brother tells me I might be better off getting an AK-47 at a pawn shop in LA. We're going to a show in May but I'll be there for 4-5 days so I will have plenty of time to look around.

Dr. Who
03-25-2013, 08:47 PM
That could certainly be a major if not the primary factor. On the other hand, some poor communities experience much less violence than others.
Perhaps the key word in your statement is the word community. A collection of people of the same ethnicity does not necessarily imply community. Community requires collective caring and mutual respect. Mutual respect begins with self respect. People who view themselves as disposible will treat each other the same disregard.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 08:57 PM
Perhaps the key word in your statement is the word community. A collection of people of the same ethnicity does not necessarily imply community. Community requires collective caring and mutual respect. Mutual respect begins with self respect. People who view themselves as disposible will treat each other the same disregard.

Are you telling me that the problem is just self-esteem? African-American self-esteem tends to be quite high. Perhaps they think too damn much of themselves? Not sure. You brought it up...

Dr. Who
03-25-2013, 10:20 PM
Are you telling me that the problem is just self-esteem? African-American self-esteem tends to be quite high. Perhaps they think too damn much of themselves? Not sure. You brought it up...
Don't confuse bravado and feisty behavior with self-esteem or self-respect. More like the best defense is a good offense. Shattered and disembodied families don't result in either self-respect or self-esteem unless there is a particularly strong and self-confident person within the family to communicate those values. This is true of any ethnicity. Unfortunately once people begin to believe that they have no future, it becomes entrenched and systemic and it is an attitude that is very hard to change. Children respond to the messages they receive from their parent(s), from the schools and from what they see on the streets. Bad behavior breeds worse behavior. Insecurity breeds fear and defensive attitudes. Older criminal types recruit children who don't know any better and are easily impressed with material goods that their parent(s) can't provide or they join gangs to avoid victimization. After a while they are part of the criminal world. Criminal behavior becomes so ubiquitous that it becomes the norm.

If you have single mothers or parents who don't value themselves, what are they likely to impart to their children? If you think this is only true of the African-American community, look at the Vietnamese immigrant community. Those who were essentially refugees from inner city Vietnam. Completely dog-eat-dog societies with the same gang activity. The same is true of many Somali immigrants. It's not an ethnic predeliction to violence, it is learned behavior. However, the US is not a third world country and shouldn't have third world problems. The fact that there is and has been systemic racism for the better part of the last 200 years is the historic reason for the problem. There has also been increasing unemployment among black males. I don't care how many laws have been put in place to try to neutralize racism, the fact remains that there still is discrimination. If there is a choice between a black candidate any any other ethnic group, blacks are on the losing side of the choice. To add to the reasons for discrimination, schools in the inner cities are not generally turning out literate graduates. Whether the cause is underfunding, irresponsible teaching, poor nutrition and lack of anyone in the home to encourage education, the result is relatively illiterate and unemployable graduates (mostly males).

Go back enough years and there were much prouder and better educated African-Americans. It was at that time a point of pride to obtain an education and it was much more widely encouraged. The inner cities and poverty that came and de-industrialization changed the dynamics and you ended up with female led families and males with no particular purpose in society.


You may now feel free to accuse me of being a bleeding heart liberal or rambling, but this stuff is very basic psychology.

Mister D
03-25-2013, 11:53 PM
Yes, it is basic psychology.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092656611000912

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/jun/04/anthonybrowne.sarahryle


I have no doubt that African family patterns are different than European patterns. Male led nuclear families have never been the global norm. One pattern is not better than another (and I mean that sincerely) but our society is structured (rightly) on the culture of those who created it and this is to the Negro's disadvantage. So much for the liberation of the 1960s. Feminists once strove for freedom by donning a male personality while the Negro, once freed from the chains of white hegemony, became a slave to his own nature. What a mess. When we try to eliminate difference or pretend it's not real it makes itself painfully evident. Mind you, that's not a moral judgement. Just an observation. In any case, it's a tangent. No one is arguing for a racial or ethnic predisposition to crime. I think such a link is probable but I don't think that explains the horrid rate of black violence in the US. The point is that further gun restrictions are largely pointless.

You may now feel free to loose the torrent of ironic hatred and intolerance typical of progressives.