What's the Difference Between a Liberal and a Progressive?

[Conley]

I know, that sounds like the start of a joke, but I'm being serious! :D

Is there a difference?

[MMC]

I thought progressives and socialists make up what is known as a Liberal.

[Captain Obvious]

One spits and the other swallows

[MMC]

One says Po-tay-to.....the other says Instant! ;)

One cooks the other cleans? :D

[Mister D]

I know, that sounds like the start of a joke, but I'm being serious! :D

Is there a difference?


Certainly. Modern American liberals are progressives. What has been categorized as liberalism in the US and the people we are used to calling liberals are progressives. Both parties are liberal though. They accept the same basic premises, such as the homo economicus, individualism, rationalism and so forth.

[Captain Obvious]

heh, he he heh, he heh... he said... homo.

heh, he he, heh.

[Mister D]

heh, he he heh, he heh... he said... homo.

heh, he he, heh.


I should have italicized it to make the Latin sound less sexual. ;)

[Captain Obvious]

Alright, I'm going rustic on you - what the hell is homo economicus?

I could google it yeah, but I have to post whore a little so Conley stops whining.

O0

[Conley]

We've got a lot of wise guys in here that think they're comedians >:( >:( :D

I admit, I laughed ;D ... but thanks for the explanation D. I'll have to read more about it because I only half understand what you're saying.

I've been hearing a lot of Democrats call themselves progressives lately so I was wondering what that was about.

[Conley]

Alright, I'm going rustic on you - what the hell is homo economicus?

I could google it yeah, but I have to post whore a little so Conley stops whining.

O0


:D

Ooh, ooh, look at the fancypants surfing the net and driving a big bad moving van at the same time! ;D

edit: and yeah to echo Cap'n save me the trouble of Googling and explain this to us cavemen if you can :D

[Captain Obvious]

Driving tomorrow.

I'm sitting on the floor now in agony wondering how many beers I can have before prematurely passing out.

[Mister D]

Alright, I'm going rustic on you - what the hell is homo economicus?

I could google it yeah, but I have to post whore a little so Conley stops whining.

O0


:D

Homo economicus, or Economic human, is the concept in some economic theories of humans as rational and narrowly self-interested actors who have the ability to make judgments toward their subjectively defined ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus

What I'm referring to is the fact that, IMO, our society reduces human existence to economic exchanges and we assume that human beings will always act in their own economic self interest.

[Mister D]

Driving tomorrow.

I'm sitting on the floor now in agony wondering how many beers I can have before prematurely passing out.


:D

[Conley]

Driving tomorrow.

I'm sitting on the floor now in agony wondering how many beers I can have before prematurely passing out.


Ouch...sitting on the floor after moving stuff all day does painful. We've all done the premature thing, can't be helped sometimes ;) :D

[Conley]

Alright, I'm going rustic on you - what the hell is homo economicus?

I could google it yeah, but I have to post whore a little so Conley stops whining.

O0


:D

Homo economicus, or Economic human, is the concept in some economic theories of humans as rational and narrowly self-interested actors who have the ability to make judgments toward their subjectively defined ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus

What I'm referring to is the fact that, IMO, our society reduces human existence to economic exchanges and we assume that human beings will always act in their own economic self interest.


Interesting. I have no evidence and I doubt you could find any but I do feel that our society has gone in that direction over the last few generations.

[Mister D]

We are a classically liberal society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

[Mister D]

Alright, I'm going rustic on you - what the hell is homo economicus?

I could google it yeah, but I have to post whore a little so Conley stops whining.

O0


:D

Homo economicus, or Economic human, is the concept in some economic theories of humans as rational and narrowly self-interested actors who have the ability to make judgments toward their subjectively defined ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus

What I'm referring to is the fact that, IMO, our society reduces human existence to economic exchanges and we assume that human beings will always act in their own economic self interest.


Interesting. I have no evidence and I doubt you could find any but I do feel that our society has gone in that direction over the last few generations.


My opinions on this are still forming. I wish I could give a better explanation of my POV.

[Conley]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.

[Mister D]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.

[Conley]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.


Agreed...on one hand maybe the 'credit crisis' is a good thing as it might teach some what is truly important. We've talked about how neither one of us worries about money but one thing I do think about is money as it relates to health care. I could give a crap about buying shit but I want the best medicine available for me and my loved ones. You know I am a bit of a hypochondriac...and I'm pretty buzzed now to boot :D but money does matter with these kinds of things in my experience.

[Mister D]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.


Agreed...on one hand maybe the 'credit crisis' is a good thing as it might teach some what is truly important. We've talked about how neither one of us worries about money but one thing I do think about is money as it relates to health care. I could give a crap about buying shit but I want the best medicine available for me and my loved ones. You know I am a bit of a hypochondriac...and I'm pretty buzzed now to boot :D but money does matter with these kinds of things in my experience.


Honestly, I think the way we conceive of insurance is part of the problem. It's for disasters. It's not for every damn thing that goes wrong. I can't remember the last time I went to the doctor. I've had the flu and I just weathered it. Granted, I am Mister D. 8)

[Conley]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.


Agreed...on one hand maybe the 'credit crisis' is a good thing as it might teach some what is truly important. We've talked about how neither one of us worries about money but one thing I do think about is money as it relates to health care. I could give a crap about buying shit but I want the best medicine available for me and my loved ones. You know I am a bit of a hypochondriac...and I'm pretty buzzed now to boot :D but money does matter with these kinds of things in my experience.


Honestly, I think the way we conceive of insurance is part of the problem. It's for disasters. It's not for every damn thing that goes wrong. I can't remember the last time I went to the doctor. I've had the flu and I just weathered it. Granted, I am Mister D. 8)


:D That's true...I'm getting pretty darned buzzed so I may have to resume some of these discussions tomorrow...wish there was a way to bookmark threads but I guess I can just rely on my memory :D

[Mister D]

How's that? ;D

[Mister D]

I'm getting a little sleepy myself. Oh I can't wait to sleep in. :)

[MMC]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.


Agreed...on one hand maybe the 'credit crisis' is a good thing as it might teach some what is truly important. We've talked about how neither one of us worries about money but one thing I do think about is money as it relates to health care. I could give a crap about buying shit but I want the best medicine available for me and my loved ones. You know I am a bit of a hypochondriac...and I'm pretty buzzed now to boot :D but money does matter with these kinds of things in my experience.


Honestly, I think the way we conceive of insurance is part of the problem. It's for disasters. It's not for every damn thing that goes wrong. I can't remember the last time I went to the doctor. I've had the flu and I just weathered it. Granted, I am Mister D. 8)


Decongestiant ??? ;) :D

[Conley]

Well the two of us have discussed at length our feelings on the materialistic nature of society and how that is the undoing of many a man.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. :) I think that mentality permeates our entire society. It's not a matter of GOP vs. Democrats as if they offered different ideas about how people should live.


Agreed...on one hand maybe the 'credit crisis' is a good thing as it might teach some what is truly important. We've talked about how neither one of us worries about money but one thing I do think about is money as it relates to health care. I could give a crap about buying shit but I want the best medicine available for me and my loved ones. You know I am a bit of a hypochondriac...and I'm pretty buzzed now to boot :D but money does matter with these kinds of things in my experience.


Honestly, I think the way we conceive of insurance is part of the problem. It's for disasters. It's not for every damn thing that goes wrong. I can't remember the last time I went to the doctor. I've had the flu and I just weathered it. Granted, I am Mister D. 8)


:D Oh yeah, ok, so where I was going with this was that I agree that insurance should be for the big stuff. The thing is that for the really big stuff some of the places fight the charges and try to weasel out of paying the mega bills that you had insurance for in the first place. That's why I'd still want money as a back up. Also when they don't approve a procedure (not that I am for non-traditional medicine) or you want to use your own doctor outside of the system. I'm not saying I know much at all about the system thankfully but I read these horror stories in the press or hear about them second hand. I would rather be prepared for any risk that comes along. Money can replace just about anything but health is precious.

[Elibe]

i think a liberal and a progressive are the same thing if you are talking about people in america today

[Mister D]

i think a liberal and a progressive are the same thing if you are talking about people in america today


Agreed.

[jgreer]

Both are working to make America better

[Mister D]

Both are working to make America better


Everyone wants a better America, greer. We disagree on how to make it better.

[wingrider]

as near as I can tell the difference between a liberal and a progressive is the cost of their programs..

liberals will spend a few million on their projects.. progressives will spend a few billion for the same service.

[Conley]

:D That does not sound like progress!

[Peter1469]

Both are working to make America better


Yes, but increasing the power of the federal government. :o

[Elibe]

Both are working to make America better


Yes, but increasing the power of the federal government. :o


while the republicans increase the power of the military

besides who did the patriot act and took away the rights of americans? george w bush and alberto gonzalez

its both republicans and democrats who are making problems but more republicans

[Peter1469]

I disagree.

The Republicanism and the Democrats are a bi-fractional ruling party. They differ on some issues but agree and increasing government control and spending.

[Conley]

Yes, it's both. Remember Obama and the Democrats extended and have expanded the Patriot Act. Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.

[Mister D]

I disagree.

The Republicanism and the Democrats are a bi-fractional ruling party. They differ on some issues but agree and increasing government control and spending.


Exactly. A one-party system with two main factions.

Hat tip to Alain De Benoist

[jgreer]

Just because some members of both parties are the cause of some of our problems doesnt mean both deserve equal blame.

We've had 12 yrs of Democrats and 20 yrs of Republicans from 1980 to 2012 so think about that....

[Mister D]

Just because some members of both parties are the cause of some of our problems doesnt mean both deserve equal blame.

We've had 12 yrs of Democrats and 20 yrs of Republicans from 1980 to 2012 so think about that....


Not everyone is as partisan as you are, greer.

[Conley]

Just because some members of both parties are the cause of some of our problems doesnt mean both deserve equal blame.

We've had 12 yrs of Democrats and 20 yrs of Republicans from 1980 to 2012 so think about that....


And what has Congress been during that time? The President gets too much of the blame when things are bad and too much credit when things are good. If you want to get a good look at how much power a POTUS yields take a look at what Obama has been able to accomplish since Congress turned against him? Not a thing! Which is actually quite likely a positive...in fact Obama has had to illegally circumvent Congress to push his agenda, like bombing Libya. So clearly Congress has a lot more power than you likely give them credit for.

[Peter1469]

Just because some members of both parties are the cause of some of our problems doesnt mean both deserve equal blame.

We've had 12 yrs of Democrats and 20 yrs of Republicans from 1980 to 2012 so think about that....


What a hack.

If you don't understand the problem you aren't likely to fix it.

[jgreer]

Not a hack those are just the facts

[Mister D]

Not a hack those are just the facts


Why start in 1980? :D

[Conley]

So you don't count Carter. Duh. :rofl: ;)

[spunkloaf]

I'd like somebody to point out some problems with progressives and liberals. There's alot of shit talk about left wing politics but no substance, which only solidifies the liberal spirit. Who wants to cave to a bunch of know-nothing shit talkers?


I'm waiting.

[MMC]

I'd like somebody to point out some problems with progressives and liberals. There's alot of shit talk about left wing politics but no substance, which only solidifies the liberal spirit. Who wants to cave to a bunch of know-nothing shit talkers?


I'm waiting.


No need to wait long. We can start with Keynesian Economics. Then there is that little part about spending other peoples money to pay off their own debts. Then there is the part that we can spend more, go into debt more. Then borrowing more money. Then we can take a look at how they like to think for others yet can't get their heads out of their azzes. Talkin about shit-talkers. Been that way ever since their creation.
Talk about equality for all but then look to prop up a minority's rights over that of the majority.

Then we can look at the social issue of the liberals being responsible for the breakdown of morality.

[jgreer]

You guys have said rich people are majority democrats but then why would they want to raise taxes?

Always blasting Obama for class warfare and saying he wants to redistribute wealth well then why would the rich side with him?

You cant get your story straight either he is doing the work of the rich or he is fighting for the poor depending on the situation conservatives use both arguments. Look at my other thread you guys wont even admit the majority of the rich are republicans. That is fact!

[Mister D]

You guys have said rich people are majority democrats but then why would they want to raise taxes?

Always blasting Obama for class warfare and saying he wants to redistribute wealth well then why would the rich side with him?

You cant get your story straight either he is doing the work of the rich or he is fighting for the poor depending on the situation conservatives use both arguments. Look at my other thread you guys wont even admit the majority of the rich are republicans. That is fact!


Why don't you prove this "fact" for us. ;D

[jgreer]

poll after poll says the same thing

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/results/states/US/H/00/epolls.0.html

[Mister D]

poll after poll says the same thing

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/results/states/US/H/00/epolls.0.html


This is one poll that puts them at 45% and 53%. Hardly reason to speak of them coming down heavily on one side. As I said earlier, "the rich" are not a monolithic block. The poor, however, appear to be if one were to judge by your poll.

[Conley]

But it's not just the ultra-rich who are abandoning Republicans. CNN's exit poll last fall showed that voters in the East making between $150,000 and $200,000 favored Democratic candidates by a 63-37 majority. Since 2004, the percentage of professionals identifying themselves as Republicans fell from 44 percent to 37 percent, according to a September Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll. The same survey found 59 percent of Republican voters agreed with the statement that free trade has been a negative for the country.

Things have clearly changed. But you wouldn't know it from the campaigns—on either side. In last week's Republican economic debate, the leading candidates sang loudly from the GOP hymnal: hailing income inequality as a wonderful product of the free market, and blaming economic woes on lawyers and Democrats.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2007/10/ceos_for_clinton.html

It's not that simple.

[Mister D]

Exactly. Good post. Greer has a far to simplified perspective on American politics. Rich versus poor and GOP versus Democrat (as if they represent real alternatives).

[Conley]

Right, and people change who they vote for all the time, especially at the level of a presidential election. Plenty of people voted for Bush and then switched to Obama, and there will be a lot who voted for Obama who will now vote Republican whoever it ends up being. Only simple minded fools vote straight party line without considering the issues or the candidate.

[Mister D]

Right, and people change who they vote for all the time, especially at the level of a presidential election. Plenty of people voted for Bush and then switched to Obama, and there will be a lot who voted for Obama who will now vote Republican whoever it ends up being. Only simple minded fools vote straight party line without considering the issues or the candidate.


True. It often happens that a voter will support one party at the state level and another on the national.

[spunkloaf]

I'd like somebody to point out some problems with progressives and liberals. There's alot of shit talk about left wing politics but no substance, which only solidifies the liberal spirit. Who wants to cave to a bunch of know-nothing shit talkers?


I'm waiting.


No need to wait long. We can start with Keynesian Economics. Then there is that little part about spending other peoples money to pay off their own debts. Then there is the part that we can spend more, go into debt more. Then borrowing more money. Then we can take a look at how they like to think for others yet can't get their heads out of their azzes. Talkin about shit-talkers. Been that way ever since their creation.
Talk about equality for all but then look to prop up a minority's rights over that of the majority.

Then we can look at the social issue of the liberals being responsible for the breakdown of morality.


Doesn't apply to liberals, progressives, or liberalism. Debunked.

Next.

[Peter1469]

You guys have said rich people are majority democrats but then why would they want to raise taxes?

Always blasting Obama for class warfare and saying he wants to redistribute wealth well then why would the rich side with him?

You cant get your story straight either he is doing the work of the rich or he is fighting for the poor depending on the situation conservatives use both arguments. Look at my other thread you guys wont even admit the majority of the rich are republicans. That is fact!


Because raising taxes on the rich will, over the long term, bring in less tax revenue. It doesn't matter whether the rich are republicans or democrats. I understand that democrats based their policies on such things.... I don't.

[MMC]

I'd like somebody to point out some problems with progressives and liberals. There's alot of shit talk about left wing politics but no substance, which only solidifies the liberal spirit. Who wants to cave to a bunch of know-nothing shit talkers?


I'm waiting.


No need to wait long. We can start with Keynesian Economics. Then there is that little part about spending other peoples money to pay off their own debts. Then there is the part that we can spend more, go into debt more. Then borrowing more money. Then we can take a look at how they like to think for others yet can't get their heads out of their azzes. Talkin about shit-talkers. Been that way ever since their creation.
Talk about equality for all but then look to prop up a minority's rights over that of the majority.

Then we can look at the social issue of the liberals being responsible for the breakdown of morality.


Doesn't apply to liberals, progressives, or liberalism. Debunked.

Next.


Not quite.....but you are welcome to explain those definitions and their Context. Especially if you think such is debunked within terminology of the Liberal Elite used only in a political sense. Progressives and Liberals deal in absolution as a means to an end. Unfortunately they may be able to change what they call themsleves from year to year. But regardless they cannot change their history. Nor just accept what they Feel is their history. ;)

[spunkloaf]

:blahblah:

Next argument please.

[wingrider]

:blahblah:

Next argument please.



IOW... lalalalalalalalal I can't hear you..... lalalalalalal.. said with fingers stuck in ears.