Poverty Has Been Eradicated in the US

[BillyBob]

This is an offshoot conversation from another thread, so I'll start by saying this:

Any able-bodied adult US citizen who lives in poverty does so by choice.


Talk amongst yourselves.

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[Chloe]

Poverty is not defined by ability to do something though. It's a money thing. It's financial. You can have a couple that works very hard but still lives in relative poverty due to their income when compared to the cost of living.

[jrm30655]

I don't really buy that today. Automation and efficency is killing jobs quicker than it is creating them. The sad fact is that there are more people than jobs and I don't think will change anytime soon.

People who have worked all thier lives and done everything right are finding themselves out on the street

[BillyBob]

Poverty is not defined by ability to do something though. It's a money thing. It's financial. You can have a couple that works very hard but still lives in relative poverty due to their income when compared to the cost of living.

First, there is no poverty in the US. If you wanna see REAL poverty, you'll need to go to Africa or Asia or even some places in Europe.

Now, let's begin, Clarice:

Do you know what the poverty threshold is in the US?

http://showwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/hannibal-lecter1.jpg

[Chris]

Poverty is not defined by ability to do something though. It's a money thing. It's financial. You can have a couple that works very hard but still lives in relative poverty due to their income when compared to the cost of living.

You view seems somewhat materialistic. Money isn't an end, it's a mean to and end, namely happiness which money can't buy. That takes purpose, reasoned planning, and self-esteem from achieving planned purposes. Example, money I work hard for--and the work itself brings happiness--that money is used to buy books to learn about things like economics, which learning brings happiness.


Also, poverty is an abstraction and a relative term. Even as the wage gap widens all people generally are becoming richer. ...and then there's happiness.

[BillyBob]

I don't really buy that today. Automation and efficency is killing jobs quicker than it is creating them. The sad fact is that there are more people than jobs and I don't think will change anytime soon.

People who have worked all thier lives and done everything right are finding themselves out on the street


Bullshit. You are disqualified for just making shit up as you go.

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Silence-of-the-Lambs-hannibal-lector-5080608-1020-576.jpg

[jrm30655]

Poverty is not defined by ability to do something though. It's a money thing. It's financial. You can have a couple that works very hard but still lives in relative poverty due to their income when compared to the cost of living.

You are finally wising up!!! You are correct. What happens when there are no jobs?

In 2007, I split for MX because I saw it coming. I was dating a mortgage broker who had been in the biz 30 years and was making $100K or more. The housing crash hit, her company folded, she couldn't find a job and had to declare BK and lost her house. Because of the BK, no one in the biz will ever hire her again. She went from high middle class to poverty in under 1 year. She filed for early SS and moved back in with mama.

[Chris]

I don't really buy that today. Automation and efficency is killing jobs quicker than it is creating them. The sad fact is that there are more people than jobs and I don't think will change anytime soon.

People who have worked all thier lives and done everything right are finding themselves out on the street

You need people to build the automation, people to get raw materials, people to transport it, people to set it up and people to maintain it, people to service it.

[Chris]

Bullshit. You are disqualified for just making shit up as you go.

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Silence-of-the-Lambs-hannibal-lector-5080608-1020-576.jpg

Why'd you start a serious topic to discuss if you're unwilling to have that discussion?

[Greenridgeman]

First, there is no poverty in the US. If you wanna see REAL poverty, you'll need to go to Africa or Asia or even some places in Europe.

Now, let's begin, Clarice:

Do you know what the poverty threshold is in the US?







http://showwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/hannibal-lecter1.jpg




There is some truly horrible poverty in the US, as I teacher I saw it all the time.

It was welfare families where all benefits that could be traded away for crack were traded away for crack.

That is why we fed two free meals a day.

Throwing more money at it is not the answer, though.

[jrm30655]

You need people to build the automation, people to get raw materials, people to transport it, people to set it up and people to maintain it, people to service it.

Like this plant in MI?

It had 600 people making small metal parts for the auto industry. China was eating it alive so the work went to China. 2 years later, it reopened, fully automated. Joe Biden was up there crowing about manufacturing being back.

It has 14 employees now. What do the other 586 do?

[BillyBob]

You are finally wising up!!! You are correct. What happens when there are no jobs?

In 2007, I split for MX because I saw it coming. I was dating a mortgage broker who had been in the biz 30 years and was making $100K or more. The housing crash hit, her company folded, she couldn't find a job and had to declare BK and lost her house. Because of the BK, no one in the biz will ever hire her again. She went from high middle class to poverty in under 1 year. She filed for early SS and moved back in with mama.


I dunno, that doesn't look so bad.

http://www.quiltersbuzz.com/uploads/africa%20village%20hut.jpg

[Greenridgeman]

Bullshit. You are disqualified for just making shit up as you go.

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Silence-of-the-Lambs-hannibal-lector-5080608-1020-576.jpg

[BillyBob]

There is some truly horrible poverty in the US, as I teacher I saw it all the time.

It was welfare families where all benefits that could be traded away for crack were traded away for crack.

That is why we fed two free meals a day.

Throwing more money at it is not the answer, though.


Go read the OP again. The poverty you are describing is self imposed.


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[Greenridgeman]

There are plenty of jobs welfare spoiled Americans will not do, for any price.

These very jobs are being done by illegals, who once they get established here, and have a good reputation, get pretty good wages based on individual worth, not a job killing minimum wage act.

[Greenridgeman]

Go read the OP again. The poverty you are describing is self imposed.


http://sexysassysorted.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/hannibal-lecter.gif



Was I preaching to the choir? I was pointing out we do have poverty, it is generally a result of bad personal choices and government cannot relieve it by wasting money.

[Chloe]

I dunno, that doesn't look so bad.

http://www.quiltersbuzz.com/uploads/africa village hut.jpg

Of course the level of poverty can also depend on where you are in the world but your argument is that there is no poverty in the US. How do you explain the poor in this country then who do work hard but are still poor and struggle every day to feed their families due to a lack of money and options? Is that not poverty?

[BillyBob]

Why'd you start a serious topic to discuss if you're unwilling to have that discussion?


I am quite willing to have a serious discussion about this topic, that is why I started it.


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[Chris]

Like this plant in MI?

It had 600 people making small metal parts for the auto industry. China was eating it alive so the work went to China. 2 years later, it reopened, fully automated. Joe Biden was up there crowing about manufacturing being back.

It has 14 employees now. What do the other 586 do?

I listed other possible jobs for them. Or work at other manufacturers. Or find a new trade. Work in the fast rising service sector.

There was a report out recently, cigar reported it, said there's more than enough jobs out there, just the recovery is too slow and uncertain.

[Greenridgeman]

You are finally wising up!!! You are correct. What happens when there are no jobs?

In 2007, I split for MX because I saw it coming. I was dating a mortgage broker who had been in the biz 30 years and was making $100K or more. The housing crash hit, her company folded, she couldn't find a job and had to declare BK and lost her house. Because of the BK, no one in the biz will ever hire her again. She went from high middle class to poverty in under 1 year. She filed for early SS and moved back in with mama.



Making $100,000 K and spending what?

Sounds like the BK was because of living beyond means.

Nobody should be in a house loan without a year's reserve to draw on in a crisis.

[BillyBob]

Of course the level of poverty can also depend on where you are in the world but your argument is that there is no poverty in the US. How do you explain the poor in this country then who do work hard but are still poor and struggle every day to feed their families due to a lack of money and options? Is that not poverty?


No, that is not poverty. That is a dream to people who live in REAL poverty. But let's not get too caught up in ambiguous definitions of poverty, the US government has a very specific one.

So let's continue.

http://www.sleightsofmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Hannibal-Lecter-hannibal-lecter-24822525-320-244.jpg

[jrm30655]

There are plenty of jobs welfare spoiled Americans will not do, for any price.

These very jobs are being done by illegals, who once they get established here, and have a good reputation, get pretty good wages based on individual worth, not a job killing minimum wage act.

You are right but those jobs are disappearing also.

I was watching an automated lettuce picker. It was working in the middle of the night. It cut the heads off, put it in a plastic sleeve and packed it in a box.

Tomatoes are now picked by machine. Almost any job that a human can do is able to be automated and automation pricing is dropping like a rock.

[Chris]

Of course the level of poverty can also depend on where you are in the world but your argument is that there is no poverty in the US. How do you explain the poor in this country then who do work hard but are still poor and struggle every day to feed their families due to a lack of money and options? Is that not poverty?

Of course there's poverty here. Liberals declare war on it under LBJ. Today the poverty rate is higher than back then. All that money, all those smarts, on solutions that if they don't keep people in dependent poverty only create new problems and increase it.

[BillyBob]

Of course there's poverty here. Liberals declare war on it under LBJ. Today the poverty rate is higher than back then. All that money, all those smarts, on solutions that if they don't keep people in dependent poverty only create new problems and increase it.

Those people aren't living in poverty because of economics, they are living in poverty by choice.

[Chloe]

Those people aren't living in poverty because of economics, they are living in poverty by choice.

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody chooses to live in poverty, even in the US.

[Greenridgeman]

Of course the level of poverty can also depend on where you are in the world but your argument is that there is no poverty in the US. How do you explain the poor in this country then who do work hard but are still poor and struggle every day to feed their families due to a lack of money and options? Is that not poverty?



Judging by the numbers of obese, and the numbers on food stamps, it is not exactly fair to say a huge number or working families struggle to feed their kids.

Schools give two free meals a day to boot.

As for lack of options, lack of options in America means at some point you failed to take advantage of the opportunities.

You are in environmental studies, but, have a passion for social issues.

Have you ever taken any electives where you went out among the "poor" in America, and got a real picture of poverty in America?

I was young and idealisitc once, leftist, downright communist SDS member in fact.

I tuned in, turned on, dropped out, infiltrated, and eventually threw up observing the very people I and others were trying to help slide further and further into poverty and ignorance, dismissing and disrespecting work and education while glorifying drugs, promiscuous, meaningless and even demeaning recreational sex, violence and even killing.

I bored into the belly of the beast from the left, came out on the right.

If government aid and liberal feelgood legislation that cannot be paid for could end poverty, we would have less, not more.

[Chris]

Those people aren't living in poverty because of economics, they are living in poverty by choice.

Got facts to back that up? Or just an opinion?

Consider people losing their jobs during the recession and recovery. Many choose to remain unemployed to retire early, because government incentives like unemployment insurance and other benefits have been increased to the point it makes no sense to return to work. That's the way I see poverty: As long as the incentive of social welfare is there it makes no sense to work instead. Take that away, regulate it, like was done in the 90s with welfare reform, and people return to work.

[Greenridgeman]

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody chooses to live in poverty, even in the US.


You are absolutely, positively wrong.

Now, you may not even have real poor in a rich state like Oregon(excluding Native Americans), but I worked among the poor starting decades before you were even born, and there definitely is poverty by choice.

[jrm30655]

I listed other possible jobs for them. Or work at other manufacturers. Or find a new trade. Work in the fast rising service sector.

There was a report out recently, cigar reported it, said there's more than enough jobs out there, just the recovery is too slow and uncertain.Henry Ford put in some automation and called the union guy over and said "They don't pay union dues". The union guy replied "they don't buy cars either". This is the problem in a nutshell.

Take Kindle for example. Great little device. Killed more jobs than the Black Plaque killed people.

You used to write a book and send it to an editor. The editor sent it to a printer who printed it and bound it. Then it was trucked to a bookstore where a clerk put it on a shelf and took your money.

As a buyer you drove to a bookstore and bought it.

Then Kindle came along.

You go on Amazon, pick a book punch a few keys and it is on your Kindle. Never talk to a human, never leave your house.

The people that grow trees aren't needed, neither is the paper mill, printer, trucker or bookstore.

You don't really see it until you think it thru.

[BillyBob]

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody chooses to live in poverty, even in the US.


Of course they do! Especially in the US!!! My goodness, you are naive. Pull your skirt down, your liberal schooling is showing.

Tell me, what is the poverty threshold in the US? And what is Minimum Wage in the US?

I'll give you a few minutes to do some simple math.....



http://www.sleightsofmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Hannibal-Lecter-hannibal-lecter-24822525-320-244.jpg

[BillyBob]

Got facts to back that up? Or just an opinion?


Facts.

[Peter1469]

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody chooses to live in poverty, even in the US.

Well, much of the homeless are really insane people who refuse the assistance provided by the government. At least in big cities.

[Greenridgeman]

Got facts to back that up? Or just an opinion?

Consider people losing their jobs during the recession and recovery. Many choose to remain unemployed to retire early, because government incentives like unemployment insurance and other benefits have been increased to the point it makes no sense to return to work. That's the way I see poverty: As long as the incentive of social welfare is there it makes no sense to work instead. Take that away, regulate it, like was done in the 90s with welfare reform, and people return to work.


The people living in poverty by choice are the ones trading benefits for drugs, trashing housing project built to help them, refusing to go to school, or act right when in school, refusing job training, refusing drug and alcohol treatment, and so forth, and their children.

[Chris]

That's bullshit and you know it. Nobody chooses to live in poverty, even in the US.

Well, for most, I think, because of government incentives, the better choice is poverty. For some it definitely is a choice: A drug addict can go to a psychiatrist, complain of anxiety and depression--which may be real from the drugs taken, be diagnosed and head over to the SSI office to apply for monthly paychecks to pay for their habits.

[Greenridgeman]

Well, much of the homeless are really insane people who refuse the assistance provided by the government. At least in big cities.


The right of the insane to refuse involuntary commitments leads to Loughners, Holmes, Lanza et al.

[Chris]

The people living in poverty by choice are the ones trading benefits for drugs, trashing housing project built to help them, refusing to go to school, or act right when in school, refusing job training, refusing drug and alcohol treatment, and so forth, and their children.

Yes, see above. I read your mind.

[Chris]

Facts.

And they are?

[Greenridgeman]

Of course they do! Especially in the US!!! My goodness, you are naive. Pull your skirt down, your liberal schooling is showing.

Tell me, what is the poverty threshold in the US? And what is Minimum Wage in the US?

I'll give you a few minutes to do some simple math.....



http://www.sleightsofmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Hannibal-Lecter-hannibal-lecter-24822525-320-244.jpg


I got a birthday card for my birthyear this year, with various facts.

In 1949, my birthyear, the minimum wage was 40 cents an hour.

I wonder what the unemployment and poverty rates were?

Gold of course, was artificially held at $35 an ounce.

[Peter1469]

The right of the insane to refuse involuntary commitments leads to Loughners, Holmes, Lanza et al.

But commitment is extremely rare now. At least in the US.

[BillyBob]

And they are?

The poverty threshold and the minimum wage. A person earning minimum wage full time lives well above the poverty threshold.


http://www.sleightsofmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Hannibal-Lecter-hannibal-lecter-24822525-320-244.jpg

[jrm30655]

Got facts to back that up? Or just an opinion?

Consider people losing their jobs during the recession and recovery. Many choose to remain unemployed to retire early, because government incentives like unemployment insurance and other benefits have been increased to the point it makes no sense to return to work. That's the way I see poverty: As long as the incentive of social welfare is there it makes no sense to work instead. Take that away, regulate it, like was done in the 90s with welfare reform, and people return to work.

You're right, a lot did just exactly that.

The question is, if not for the safety net, many would be on the street hungry and unable to find a job. Do you really want millions of hungry people on the street?

A lot of the people on welfare are loafers but if we drop the safety net, what would the unemployment rate be? 40? Kicking them off welfare will not magically cause jobs to appear.

I was in business for years. We paid what we had to pay to get people. When people were short, we paid more. When they were plentiful, we paid less. The average salary has dropped 10% over the past 5 years (55K to 50K). That alone tells me that there are more people than jobs.

[Greenridgeman]

Henry Ford put in some automation and called the union guy over and said "They don't pay union dues". The union guy replied "they don't buy cars either". This is the problem in a nutshell.

Take Kindle for example. Great little device. Killed more jobs than the Black Plaque killed people.

You used to write a book and send it to an editor. The editor sent it to a printer who printed it and bound it. Then it was trucked to a bookstore where a clerk put it on a shelf and took your money.

As a buyer you drove to a bookstore and bought it.

Then Kindle came along.

You go on Amazon, pick a book punch a few keys and it is on your Kindle. Never talk to a human, never leave your house.

The people that grow trees aren't needed, neither is the paper mill, printer, trucker or bookstore.

You don't really see it until you think it thru.


If kindle kills pine monoculture and promotes a return to natural ratios of trees in the forest, asthma will plummet.

[zelmo1234]

You are finally wising up!!! You are correct. What happens when there are no jobs?

In 2007, I split for MX because I saw it coming. I was dating a mortgage broker who had been in the biz 30 years and was making $100K or more. The housing crash hit, her company folded, she couldn't find a job and had to declare BK and lost her house. Because of the BK, no one in the biz will ever hire her again. She went from high middle class to poverty in under 1 year. She filed for early SS and moved back in with mama.

I have a real hard time felling sorry for your friend

100K per year and 30 years in the business. It was not her first time with a down market!

A good broker with 30 years has at least 1 year of expenses on hand to cover hard times.

Most brokers were OK thourhg the first half of 2008 and by the end of 2009 were selling forclosures for pennies on the dollar!

[Chris]

The poverty threshold and the minimum wage. A person earning minimum wage full time lives well above the poverty threshold.




Those are government choices. The poverty threshold is arbitrary depending on agenda, and minimum wage increases poverty.

[Greenridgeman]

But commitment is extremely rare now. At least in the US.


Libs accept that as the price we pay for the rights of the insane.

If the insane abuse the rights of the sane, libs want to curtail the right of the law abiding sane.

[Greenridgeman]

The poverty threshold and the minimum wage. A person earning minimum wage full time lives well above the poverty threshold.


http://www.sleightsofmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Hannibal-Lecter-hannibal-lecter-24822525-320-244.jpg


Very few people are making minimum wage for long. They either get fired or get a raise. I doubt 5% of Americans are making minimum wage at any given time.

[BillyBob]

Those are government choices. The poverty threshold is arbitrary depending on agenda, and minimum wage increases poverty.

Yet these are the guidelines we have to work with.

[Chris]

You're right, a lot did just exactly that.

The question is, if not for the safety net, many would be on the street hungry and unable to find a job. Do you really want millions of hungry people on the street?

A lot of the people on welfare are loafers but if we drop the safety net, what would the unemployment rate be? 40? Kicking them off welfare will not magically cause jobs to appear.

I was in business for years. We paid what we had to pay to get people. When people were short, we paid more. When they were plentiful, we paid less. The average salary has dropped 10% over the past 5 years (55K to 50K). That alone tells me that there are more people than jobs.

I don't think anyone's arguing for removal of a safety net. Though many of us would argue against what Peter has called a safety hammock.

The increases in and extensions unemployment insurance and benefits, once a safety net, is becoming a hammock for some.

[BillyBob]

Very few people are making minimum wage for long. They either get fired or get a raise. I doubt 5% of Americans are making minimum wage at any given time.

Getting fired and getting a raise are both choices.

[Chris]

Yet these are the guidelines we have to work with.

Government guidelines? Not sure what government has to offer let alone guidelines.

[Chloe]

Very few people are making minimum wage for long. They either get fired or get a raise. I doubt 5% of Americans are making minimum wage at any given time.

Ok but there's no way a person can really live on minimum wage or even a little above that, and what kind of raise would they get anyway? It couldn't be that much I wouldn't think. I don't even think a simple part time job paying minimum wage would even pay for my books right now let alone if I had to raise a family on it or something

[BillyBob]

Government guidelines? Not sure what government has to offer let alone guidelines.


It's what we have to work with. I guess you and I could arbitrarily decide that anything less that 1 million dollars a year is living in poverty. Meanwhile, the poverty threshold exists as stated.

[Peter1469]

Ok but there's no way a person can really live on minimum wage or even a little above that, and what kind of raise would they get anyway? It couldn't be that much I wouldn't think. I don't even think a simple part time job would even pay for my books right now let alone if I had to raise a family on it or something

I lived on minimum wage through college. Not so much in law school- that was 5X above minimum wage.

So if you are on minimum wage you drink Bush lite and eat Ramen Noodles. If you make more, you get better stuff.

[BillyBob]

Ok but there's no way a person can really live on minimum wage or even a little above that, and what kind of raise would they get anyway? It couldn't be that much I wouldn't think. I don't even think a simple part time job paying minimum wage would even pay for my books right now let alone if I had to raise a family on it or something

So you condone folks simply deciding not to work because of the cost of your books? Really????

Well, at least you admit that poverty is a choice, just as I stated in the OP.

[Chloe]

So you condone folks simply deciding not to work because of the cost of your books? Really????

Well, at least you admit that poverty is a choice, just as I stated in the OP.

No that's not what I meant

[Greenridgeman]

Ok but there's no way a person can really live on minimum wage or even a little above that, and what kind of raise would they get anyway? It couldn't be that much I wouldn't think. I don't even think a simple part time job paying minimum wage would even pay for my books right now let alone if I had to raise a family on it or something

The minimum wage was never intended to cover the cost of raising a family.

Minimum wage did contribute greatly to me finishing college and being able to raise a family.

[Mainecoons]

The war on poverty has done an excellent job of eradicating poverty among government "workers."

:grin:

[BillyBob]

Minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. That's a little over $15k a year.

The poverty threshhold for a person in the US is: $11,490 a year.

So a person earning minimum wage lives well above the poverty level.

http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html

[Mister D]

I lived on minimum wage through college. Not so much in law school- that was 5X above minimum wage.

So if you are on minimum wage you drink Bush lite and eat Ramen Noodles. If you make more, you get better stuff.

If you know how to cook you can do better than Ramen Noodles.

[Chris]

Minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. That's a little over $15k a year.

The poverty threshhold for a person in the US is: $11,490 a year.

So a person earning minimum wage lives well above the poverty level.

http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html

Once again, minimum wage kills jobs. The choice you speak of is not those on poverty but those who create it.

[BillyBob]

Once again, minimum wage kills jobs. The choice you speak of is not those on poverty but those who create it.


Despite all that, any able-bodied adult US citizen who lives in poverty does so by choice.

[Greenridgeman]

It's what we have to work with. I guess you and I could arbitrarily decide that anything less that 1 million dollars a year is living in poverty. Meanwhile, the poverty threshold exists as stated.


We could give $1,000,000 to every poor person in this country, and in 50 years, we would have just as many poor.

Jesus said the poor would always be among us.

[BillyBob]

We could give $1,000,000 to every poor person in this country, and in 50 years, we would have just as many poor.

Jesus said the poor would always be among us.


I bet a lot of them would be poor much sooner than in 50 years.

[Chris]

Despite all that, any able-bodied adult US citizen who lives in poverty does so by choice.

Pretend for a minute that you can get a job paying $N and I offer you $M to not work, where N < M. Let all else be equal. The intelligent choice is to take my offer.

[Chris]

We could give $1,000,000 to every poor person in this country, and in 50 years, we would have just as many poor.

Jesus said the poor would always be among us.

That's what I meant earlier by the term is relative, there will always be those poorer and those richer than others.

An important aspect of that, mentioned earlier, and economist Thomas Sowell points this out, is the poor today are not the same people as the poor yesterday and won't be the same people tomorrow. There is a great deal of socioeconomic mobility among the poor, middle and rich "classes".

[Greenridgeman]

I bet a lot of them would be poor much sooner than in 50 years.

No doubt. I have a basically homeless sister, who was left $330,000. She also gets a very nice monthly retirement check.

The $330,000 is almost all gone, wasted, nothing at all to show for it, except that in a moment of sanity she agreed to put some in an annuity that pays her at the first of every month, with her retirement check.

She takes in $3,500 a month.

By the 5th of the month, she cannot even buy gas for her truck to get to the casino.

[Greenridgeman]

That's what I meant earlier by the term is relative, there will always be those poorer and those richer than others.

An important aspect of that, mentioned earlier, and economist Thomas Sowell points this out, is the poor today are not the same people as the poor yesterday and won't be the same people tomorrow. There is a great deal of socioeconomic mobility among the poor, middle and rich "classes".



There are multi-generational poor, and poor that go in and out of poverty, and some that totally escape it.

What is certain is that after almost 60 years of the War on Poverty, we have the fattest, most technologically blessed, snappiest dressed poor on th planet.

[patrickt]

Poverty is not defined by ability to do something though. It's a money thing. It's financial. You can have a couple that works very hard but still lives in relative poverty due to their income when compared to the cost of living.

I think Chloe is right but the key is the term relative poverty. People mired in poverty who own a home, a car, television, and so forth would not be considered poor in any sense other than relative to someone with more. And, using that concept means we can never, ever, eliminate poverty. President Obama is poor relative to President Clinton.

[Chris]

There are multi-generational poor, and poor that go in and out of poverty, and some that totally escape it.

What is certain is that after almost 60 years of the War on Poverty, we have the fattest, most technologically blessed, snappiest dressed poor on th planet.

Certainly there are some who never escape poverty, generation after generation, and some who do.

Some have free cellphones as well.

Time to revisit welfare reform. Seemed to work in the 90s.

[Greenridgeman]

Certainly there are some who never escape poverty, generation after generation, and some who do.

Some have free cellphones as well.

Time to revisit welfare reform. Seemed to work in the 90s.


Time to revisit the founding spirit, "You don't work, you don't eat".


America did not get here with 50% on the dole, living off the 50% of workers they despise.

[BillyBob]

Pretend for a minute that you can get a job paying $N and I offer you $M to not work, where N < M. Let all else be equal. The intelligent choice is to take my offer.


Much more goes into that choice than just the monetary value.

Would I prefer to be 'free' or a ward of the state [you]?
Would I prefer to be lazy and just lay around the house all day drinking 40s and smoking crack or would I prefer to work and possibly better myself?
Do I have any sense of pride and self worth or am I content to be a lazy ghetto dweller?

I'm sure there are many more that could be added to the list. I also know there are plenty of folks who would take your offer.

[Chris]

Time to revisit the founding spirit, "You don't work, you don't eat".


America did not get here with 50% on the dole, living off the 50% of workers they despise.

Those who don't work include those who cannot and those who have retired.

I agree, the Protestant work ethic is a good one.

I'm just saying it's not as simple as some people choosing not to work. And so far you've done a fine job of pointing out government choices that incent that choice.

[Chris]

Much more goes into that choice than just the monetary value.

Would I prefer to be 'free' or a ward of the state [you]?
Would I prefer to be lazy and just lay around the house all day drinking 40s and smoking crack or would I prefer to work and possibly better myself?
Do I have any sense of pride and self worth or am I content to be a lazy ghetto dweller?

I'm sure there are many more that could be added to the list. I also know there are plenty of folks who would take your offer.

Yes, the choice is extremely much more complex that simply choosing not to work.

[Greenridgeman]

Those who don't work include those who cannot and those who have retired.

I agree, the Protestant work ethic is a good one.

I'm just saying it's not as simple as some people choosing not to work. And so far you've done a fine job of pointing out government choices that incent that choice.

"I'm just saying it's not as simple as some people choosing not to work."


Millions of illegals that have no problem finding work would dispute this.

[Cigar]

I say the Republicans stay with the Makers / Takers theme ... it's working like a charm. :laugh:

[Chris]

"I'm just saying it's not as simple as some people choosing not to work."


Millions of illegals that have no problem finding work would dispute this.

Leaving home and family, risking arrest, working for more than they could at home but less usually than legals could here. No so simple.

[Chris]

I say the Republicans stay with the Makers / Takers theme ... it's working like a charm. :laugh:

Always the partisan.

[BillyBob]

Those who don't work include those who cannot

That is why I prefaced my statement with 'able-bodied'.


and those who have retired.

Retirement is a choice.

[Chris]

That is why I prefaced my statement with 'able-bodied'.



Retirement is a choice.

Exactly, a choice.


So do you have stats on how many able-bodies choose not to work, choose to free ride?

[BillyBob]

Exactly, a choice.


So do you have stats on how many able-bodies choose not to work, choose to free ride?

No, but I'm guessing it's similar to the number of folks who voted for Obama.

[Cigar]

Always the partisan.

It's reality ... go with it. :wink:

[Chris]

No, but I'm guessing it's similar to the number of folks who voted for Obama.

I see, or don't. Find some facts.

[Chris]

Some statistic from Welfare Statistics (http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/).

Number people on welfare: 4,300,000. That likely includes a lot of non-able bodies, children, etc. But let's go with that figure.

It represent approximately 1.5% of Americans.



The number of people on unemployment insurance exceeds that: 5,600,000.


Include food stamp recipients and we have a grand total of 4.1 % of Americans on some form of welfare.



Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment): $131.9 billion.


It's a public choice problem.

[Greenridgeman]

Exactly, a choice.


So do you have stats on how many able-bodies choose not to work, choose to free ride?


Workforce participation rate is 64%.

If 1/4 of the non-participants are able bodied, that is far too many.

Go cruise an area, rural, small town, or big city, and see how many able bodied people there are sitting around doing nothing.

Then, cruise the Home Depot and Lowe's lots, where they line up each day for work.

We do not have a job shortage in the GOUSA.

We have a shortage of people willing to work for a living, and since the Dems now have the monopoly on passing out the dole, they will vote for Dems and the continued opportunity to "chill" on somebody else's dime.

[Cigar]

Let's just cut to the chase ...

51% of America are lazy takers.

40% of America are Productive Makers.

I say the people who think that should convince their elected officials to shout that from the highest mountain tops and continue that theme throughout the next election and the next.

GO with what you truthfully believe and you'll be set free ....

[Cigar]

Workforce participation rate is 64%.

If 1/4 of the non-participants are able bodied, that is far too many.

Go cruise an area, rural, small town, or big city, and see how many able bodied people there are sitting around doing nothing.

Then, cruise the Home Depot and Lowe's lots, where they line up each day for work.

We do not have a job shortage in the GOUSA.

We have a shortage of people willing to work for a living, and since the Dems now have the monopoly on passing out the dole, they will vote for Dems and the continued opportunity to "chill" on somebody else's dime.

You tell them ... :grin:

[Greenridgeman]

Some statistic from Welfare Statistics (http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/).

Number people on welfare: 4,300,000. That likely includes a lot of non-able bodies, children, etc. But let's go with that figure.

It represent approximately 1.5% of Americans.



The number of people on unemployment insurance exceeds that: 5,600,000.


Include food stamp recipients and we have a grand total of 4.1 % of Americans on some form of welfare.



Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment): $131.9 billion.


It's a public choice problem.


Please copy and post your backup, link would not work.

I am guessing you are leaving some "0's" off of those figures.

[Mister D]

It's reality ... go with it. :wink:

Well, yeah. That's why he said it.

[Chris]

Workforce participation rate is 64%.

If 1/4 of the non-participants are able bodied, that is far too many.

Go cruise an area, rural, small town, or big city, and see how many able bodied people there are sitting around doing nothing.

Then, cruise the Home Depot and Lowe's lots, where they line up each day for work.

We do not have a job shortage in the GOUSA.

We have a shortage of people willing to work for a living, and since the Dems now have the monopoly on passing out the dole, they will vote for Dems and the continued opportunity to "chill" on somebody else's dime.

That, and in the face of a slow, uncertain recovery, companies reluctant to hire.

[Chris]

Please copy and post your backup, link would not work.

I am guessing you are leaving some "0's" off of those figures.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

[Chris]

Let's just cut to the chase ...

51% of America are lazy takers.

40% of America are Productive Makers.

I say the people who think that should convince their elected officials to shout that from the highest mountain tops and continue that theme throughout the next election and the next.

GO with what you truthfully believe and you'll be set free ....

Greenridgeman just posted stat "Workforce participation rate is 64%."

I posted the welfare rate is only around 4%.

Where'd you come up with your numbers?

[nic34]

Time to revisit the founding spirit, "You don't work, you don't eat".


America did not get here with 50% on the dole, living off the 50% of workers they despise.

So you think an 87 year old grandmother working for wages is the "founding spirit"?

[Greenridgeman]

That, and in the face of a slow, uncertain recovery, companies reluctant to hire.



Why hire somebody full time, when the government now tries to make that relationship between employer/employee more like the former relationship between father/minor dependents?

Where did the proposterous idea that an employer owes healthcare to his workers come from anyway?

With the trillions this Obamacare fiasco, and his other failures, have cost us, we could have built hundreds of federal teaching hospitals open to all who need care.

We could have paid for medical school for thousands who have the brains, talent and desire but not the money.


But it has never been about health care, but, rather, health insurance, and control of health insurance for power's sake.

[Greenridgeman]

So you think an 87 year old grandmother working for wages is the "founding spirit"?


An 87 year old grandmother should have earned SS and other retirement benefits, and accumulated some savings.

Your example is just more failed agitprop, the elderly have more wealth than any other segment of society.

[Chris]

Why hire somebody full time, when the government now tries to make that relationship between employer/employee more like the former relationship between father/minor dependents?

Where did the proposterous idea that an employer owes healthcare to his workers come from anyway?

With the trillions this Obamacare fiasco, and his other failures, have cost us, we could have built hundreds of federal teaching hospitals open to all who need care.

We could have paid for medical school for thousands who have the brains, talent and desire but not the money.


But it has never been about health care, but, rather, health insurance, and control of health insurance for power's sake.


There's that too, more examples of poor government choices driving poverty.

There must be a better way. I would hope so.

[Greenridgeman]

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/


I have slow speed dialup, do not have 15 minutes for this.

Would it kill you to post the damned figures you are working from?

[Greenridgeman]

There's that too, more examples of poor government choices driving poverty.

There must be a better way. I would hope so.



The poor choices are being made by the dupes that continue to vote these incompetent egomaniacs into office.

The blame lies solely with American Idol Nation.

[nic34]

An 87 year old grandmother should have earned SS and other retirement benefits, and accumulated some savings.


Oh, so she doesn't need to work.

Just getting it straight.

Good thing there's that SS thing....

[Greenridgeman]

Oh, so she doesn't need to work.

Just getting it straight.

Good thing there's that SS thing....


Are we talking about a generic granny for agitprop purposes, or an actual granny your family is neglecting in her old age?

[Chris]

I have slow speed dialup, do not have 15 minutes for this.

Would it kill you to post the damned figures you are working from?

It's really just a web page, html, but here's the numbers I cited above in tabular form:



Welfare Statistics



Total number of Americans on welfare
4,300,000


Total number of Americans on food stamps (http://www.statisticbrain.com/food-stamp-statistics/)
46,700,000


Total number of Americans on unemployment (http://www.statisticbrain.com/unemployment-rate-by-year/) insurance
5,600,000


Percent of the US population on welfare
4.1 %


Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment)
$131.9 billion

[Chris]

The poor choices are being made by the dupes that continue to vote these incompetent egomaniacs into office.

The blame lies solely with American Idol Nation.


Yes, ultimately responsibility lies with all of us who allow such a government to rule and ruin this nation.


Direction of Country (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/direction_of_country-902.html)
RCP Average
Right Direction
32.8

Wrong Track
60.5

[Cigar]

Ever think that doing absolutely "nothing" while taking a pay-check from the Tax Payers could be a bad thing. In other words, ever think that taking a chance or trying something is better than sitting around doing nothing and saying no to everything?

I'm an Engineer, and engineers learn threw action, taking chances and making adjustment to reach success. People who sit around and fear action are failures of inaction and thus never achieve any successes.

[nic34]

Are we talking about a generic granny for agitprop purposes, or an actual granny your family is neglecting in her old age?


Lots of grannys have no family. Lots of them did not hold full time jobs to put much money away and may not qualify for SS. Not everyone fits neatly in one of your boxes....

[Chris]

Ever think that doing absolutely "nothing" while taking a pay-check from the Tax Payers could be a bad thing. In other words, ever think that taking a chance or trying something is better than sitting around doing nothing and saying no to everything?

I'm an Engineer, and engineers learn threw action, taking chances and making adjustment to reach success. People who sit around and fear action are failures of inaction and thus never achieve any successes.

Engineers also tend to plan their solutions, not leap emotionally at solutions that just create more problems.

[nic34]

Yes, ultimately responsibility lies with all of us who allow such a government to rule and ruin this nation.


Direction of Country (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/direction_of_country-902.html)
RCP Average
Right Direction
32.8

Wrong Track
60.5



So polls matter in this case?

Who's to blame for the wrong direction, and do people being polled know what they are talking about?

[TheDictator]

The Bible says "if a man will not work, he should not eat". Giving welfare to people who are able to work is wrong.

[Cigar]

Engineers also tend to plan their solutions, not leap emotionally at solutions that just create more problems.

That's the old way of doing things ... not the new rapid development and agile methodologies.

If you get caught in analysis paralysis mode, you'll get left behind.

If you know your business, action is not a leap of emotion, it's a reaction based on experience.

A third basemen leaps on reaction based on experience, not faith.

If you need to sit around and think about, move aside and let someone with experience lead, because you're in the way of progress.

[Greenridgeman]

It's really just a web page, html, but here's the numbers I cited above in tabular form:



Welfare Statistics




Total number of Americans on welfare

4,300,000



Total number of Americans on food stamps (http://www.statisticbrain.com/food-stamp-statistics/)

46,700,000



Total number of Americans on unemployment (http://www.statisticbrain.com/unemployment-rate-by-year/) insurance

5,600,000



Percent of the US population on welfare

4.1 %



Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment)

$131.9 billion







I guess it is how you define welfare then, if no "0" is missing from welfare number.

If 46.7 MILLION are on food stamps, seems a similar number would be on welfare, and from the tabulation, it appears a "0" is missing, or, the figure should be shifted on space to the right to comply with customary usage.

I consider foodstamps to be welfare, it is welfare to recipients, and welfare to corporate agriculture.

I guess it is all how you define things.

47% that pay no federal personal income tax are all on welfare if you ask me.

[jrm30655]

It's really just a web page, html, but here's the numbers I cited above in tabular form:



Welfare Statistics




Total number of Americans on welfare

4,300,000



Total number of Americans on food stamps (http://www.statisticbrain.com/food-stamp-statistics/)

46,700,000



Total number of Americans on unemployment (http://www.statisticbrain.com/unemployment-rate-by-year/) insurance

5,600,000



Percent of the US population on welfare

4.1 %



Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment)

$131.9 billion





There's a lot of "hidden welfare" out there also. I do some part time work for a company that gathers apartment data. There are a lot of "tax credit apartments". These are apartments that rent for less than market because someone has given them special tax advantages to provide lower cost housing. Normally, the max income is in the 33-35K level but I've seen it as high as $86K in the Portland area.

Also, disability comes with Medicare (or maybe Medicade), free healthcare. States are pushing disability because it takes people off of their healthcare rolls and drops them on the Feds rolls.

There was a story a few weeks ago that if you were a single mother with 3 kids, in NYC, you could get about $68K in benefits. All that free healthcare is worth more than any monthly check.

[Cigar]

The Bible says "if a man will not work, he should not eat". Giving welfare to people who are able to work is wrong.

Hope you read the rest of the bible someday.

[Cigar]

Paying Exxon Mobil anything ... is welfare.

Paying Corporate Jet Owners anything ... is welfare.

[TheDictator]

Hope you read the rest of the bible someday.


I have, I have read from Genesis to Revelation about 25 times.

[Chris]

Paying Exxon Mobil anything ... is welfare.

Paying Corporate Jet Owners anything ... is welfare.

Corporate welfare doesn't excuse social welfare. They're both forms of crony capitalistic wealth redistribution, taking from the general public to give to special interests.

[Peter1469]

If you know how to cook you can do better than Ramen Noodles.

I didn't know how to cook in college. But I did add onions and cheese to my Ramen.

[Cigar]

Corporate welfare doesn't excuse social welfare. They're both forms of crony capitalistic wealth redistribution, taking from the general public to give to special interests.

There's a huge difference between those who obviously don't need it ... those you see personally with our own eyes, and those you will never see with your own eyes. If you can point out individuals with your own eyes as frauds, then you have an obligation to do something about it.

[Chris]

I didn't know how to cook in college. But I did add onions and cheese to my Ramen.

Speaking of ramen, there was a cable reality show on last night about a man so infatuated with "I Dream of Genie" he spent most his money on memorabilia and then went on an austerity program to see Barbara Edens perform to where he cut back on food to just $12 a week. It was mostly ramen. He was a poverty nut.

[Chris]

There's a huge difference between those who obviously don't need it ... those you see personally with our own eyes, and those you will never see with your own eyes. If you can point out individuals with your own eyes as frauds, then you have an obligation to do something about it.

Yes, that was a point I was making earlier, several times.

[Mister D]

I didn't know how to cook in college. But I did add onions and cheese to my Ramen.

I started to learn around 17. I made a lot of chili and marinara sauce for pasta in college.

[Cigar]

I didn't know how to cook in college. But I did add onions and cheese to my Ramen.

Or you can Marry an Excellent Cook ... and just Man The Grill

[Ransom]

Corporate welfare doesn't excuse social welfare. They're both forms of crony capitalistic wealth redistribution, taking from the general public to give to special interests.

Corporate wlefare comes in the form of tax breaks. For example. A large city might give an incentive for a movie producer should they choose to come to their fine city and shoot a movie. The movie set moves to town, hires lots of local help, creates a rustle and bustle that's good for business and tourism. Anyone can see what benefits are being provided to any city bringing a movie company with screen stars and business opportunites. From restaurants to tourism. giving the movie company a tax break isn't welfare because that company already pays high corporate taxes, and plenty of them.

Social welfare creates a cycle of dependency and moral decay, sorry, there is no analogy between the two.

[simpsonofpg]

That is pure BS, I know for a fact that a lot of poverty is from mental health issue that go untreated because we don't like to admit that people are sick in the head. I had a friend who owns a small company tell me they should just go get a job and I asked him if he would hire one and he said no. He made my case for me.

[sedan]

The Bible says "if a man will not work, he should not eat". Giving welfare to people who are able to work is wrong.

The 1936 Soviet Constitution says the same thing (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/18cons01.html) (Chapter 5, Article 18) -- Stalin agrees with you!

[Greenridgeman]

The 1936 Soviet Constitution says the same thing (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/18cons01.html) (Chapter 5, Article 18) -- Stalin agrees with you!


I agree with Stalin on this one this. When the real left is through with the useful idiots, and the Stalinists and Maoists win, the second thing they will do is set up re-education/labor/death camps for the workshy.

The first thing they will do is shoot the useful idiots.

[Chris]

The 1936 Soviet Constitution says the same thing (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/18cons01.html) (Chapter 5, Article 18) -- Stalin agrees with you!

That's interesting, for Marx said (in translation of course) "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program. Implementations of socialism never live up to its ideals.

[Chris]

I agree with Stalin on this one this. When the real left is through with the useful idiots, and the Stalinists and Maoists win, the second thing they will do is set up re-education/labor/death camps for the workshy.

The first thing they will do is shoot the useful idiots.

Yea, perhaps we could return to the Gilded Age and try euthanasia again.

[lynn]

I guess it is how you define welfare then, if no "0" is missing from welfare number.

If 46.7 MILLION are on food stamps, seems a similar number would be on welfare, and from the tabulation, it appears a "0" is missing, or, the figure should be shifted on space to the right to comply with customary usage.

I consider foodstamps to be welfare, it is welfare to recipients, and welfare to corporate agriculture.

I guess it is all how you define things.

47% that pay no federal personal income tax are all on welfare if you ask me.


The 4,300,000 on welfare are people that are getting cash benefits in addition to food stamps. The 46,700,000 are people getting food stamps but this number also includes people getting other government benefits too.

[lynn]

That is pure BS, I know for a fact that a lot of poverty is from mental health issue that go untreated because we don't like to admit that people are sick in the head. I had a friend who owns a small company tell me they should just go get a job and I asked him if he would hire one and he said no. He made my case for me.

You are correct in that a majority of them suffer mental health issues that makes them incapable of gaining employment. The increase in the people now living in poverty is the result of companies downsizing or leaving the country. This population is the fault of our government and it will increase by next year.