One bomber dead, the other on the run

[Peter1469]

I have not found a link yet, but it is on the TV. Breaking news. Apparently around Watertown MA.

[Peter1469]

Looks like the police have locked the entire area down.

[Peter1469]

They may have gotten the second one. Unconfirmed reports. Going to work now.

[junie]

Live blog: Bombings at the Boston Marathon
Police this morning are searching a 20-block area in Watertown for one of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects after a violent night during which an MIT Police officer lost his life and a Transit Police officer was seriously wounded in a firefight. The other Boston Marathon bombing suspect, who was wearing a black hat in photos released Thursday evening, is dead after firing bullets and launching explosives at police.
Boston Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis said the man now known as Marathon bombing Suspect #2, the man with the white baseball cap who actually dropped the bombs at the race finish line, is the person being sought by a massive collection of federal, state, and municipal police.
“We believe this to be a terrorist,’’ Davis told reporters about 4:30 a.m. today. “We believe this to be a man here to kill people.”Boston Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis said the man now known as Marathon bombing Suspect #2, the man with the white baseball cap who actually dropped the bombs at the race finish line, is the person being sought by a massive collection of federal, state, and municipal police.

http://live.boston.com/Event/Live_blog_Explosion_in_Copley_Square

[junie]

two punks from russia... 19 and 20 year old brothers...


Boston suspect on loose identified as Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, 19, AP reports (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/19/suspect-in-custody-newspaper-says/2095845/)


The search has led to the sudden shutdown of the MBTA’s entire network of commuter rail, bus, and subway services.
State authorities also asked people who live in Watertown, Waltham, Newton, Belmont, Cambridge, and Allston-Brighton to stay home and requested businesses in those cities and towns to stay closed.

“We are asking you to stay indoors, to stay in your homes for the time being,’’ Kurt Schwartz, who leads the state’s homeland security department, said at a 6 a.m. press conference today. “We are asking business in those areas to cooperate and not open today until we can provide further guidance.’’
Authorities are searching for the man they dubbed Suspect No. 2 at a Thursday news conference — the man wearing a white baseball cap. Suspect No. 1 — the man wearing the black hat — is dead.


Most of the region’s universities -- including Harvard, MIT, Boston University, Boston College, Northeastern, and Suffolk -- announced that they would be closed for the day.

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit-gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/UAbtwLVGLwBE5VI7BUyQuL/story.html

[Micketto]

Looks like it wasn't the two rich, white, American male Christians that the left was so hoping they could blame it on.

Instead it was a couple of foreigners from a Muslim nation that slipped through Homeland Security.

Obama must be cringing.

[zelmo1234]

Yes the left was certainly hoping for TEA party!

It should be fun to watch them tie this to the redical right if in fact they do have mid east and or muslim ties?

Have no fear! They will still try and find a way

[jillian]

Looks like it wasn't the two rich, white, American males that the left was so hoping they could blame it on.

Instead it was a couple of foreigners from a Muslim nation that slipped through Homeland Security.

Obama must be cringing.

i didn't see anyone say that... except for the rightwingnut toons who kept saying that was what the "left" (whastever the heck that is) is GOING to say.

Now be quiet and stop it.

you sound ridiculous...

oh right...

[zelmo1234]

You must have been only watching the right wing nut!

http://redalertpolitics.com/2013/04/16/michael-moore-alleges-that-the-tea-party-was-behind-the-boston-massacre-bombings/

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2013/04/15/here-we-go-cnn-wolf-blitzer-blames-anti-tax-group-or-tea-party-for-boston-marathon-explosion/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3008230/posts?page=19

http://www.tpnn.com/it-begins-the-leftist-media-starts-to-blame-the-right-for-boston-marathon-bombings/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=it-begins-the-leftist-media-starts-to-blame-the-right-for-boston-marathon-bombings

Now if you really want to tell someone to stop it! Please go a nd look in the mirror!

We still do not know for sure that these suspects are tied to any organizations! We don't know what was in their head.

but it is likely that the left will not get hteir wish that they were TEA Party Republicans!

If they have Islamic terrorism ties it is likely that the lie told by obama that AlQueda is no longer a threat!

The policy of apeasment is likely to be proven to be what it is an attempt to show weakness and thus prevent attackes, and they do not work!

[Mister D]

I wonder if they were ethnic Russians or Caucasians?

Caucasian as in from the Caucasus, people. :rollseyes:

[Mister D]

It's likely that they do have such ties @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) if they are from one of those former republics. Why not Moscow or St. Petersburg though?

[Cigar]

Looks Like he needs just a little more Sun

http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/image/suspect-2


http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/image/suspects-in-crowd-1

Yea .... Brown People ... :rollseyes:

[Chris]

Terrorists are terrorists whatever their background.

[Mister D]

Looks Like he needs just a little more Sun

http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/image/suspect-2


http://www.fbi.gov/news/updates-on-investigation-into-multiple-explosions-in-boston/image/suspects-in-crowd-1

Yea .... Brown People ... :rollseyes:

Who said brown people? No one?

[Cigar]

Terrorists are terrorists whatever their background.

I say the same thing about Gangs :wink: how about you?

[Mister D]

Cigar has actually done something useful. The first pic does look like someone from one of the former republics.

[Mister D]

I say the same thing about Gangs :wink: how about you?

Our gangs, unlike our terrorists, are overwhelmingly black and Hispanic.

[Cigar]

Who said brown people? No one?

Really Dude ... are you that sheltered ... ? What do you think was talked about for two days.

Google it yourself ... try a CNN Reporters Live Interview. :rollseyes:

[Cigar]

Our gangs, unlike our terrorists, are overwhelmingly black and Hispanic.



Data?

[Mister D]

Really Dude ... are you that sheltered ... ? What do you think was talked about for two days.

Google it yourself ... try a CNN Reporters Live Interview. :rollseyes:



So no one here said such a thing and you don't know if anyone else did either. Understood.

[Mister D]

Data?

http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics

Are you that sheltered. :wink:

[Cigar]

Cigar has actually done something useful. The first pic does look like someone from one of the former republics.

From the FBIs Website

[Mister D]

They have the news on in the cafe downstairs where I just grabbed breakfast. His name (I won't even attempt to spell it by memory) is definitely Caucasian.

[Micketto]

i didn't see anyone say that... except for the rightwingnut toons who kept saying that was what the "left" (whastever the heck that is) is GOING to say.

Now be quiet and stop it.

you sound ridiculous...

oh right...

So you ignore the leftist media out there practically accusing the Tea Party of the bombing and call me ridiculous instead.

It's the mentality of the lunatic left that gives them this reputation that the Right constantly calls them out on.
Maybe give a little more cred to the Right, and stop calling them "nut" or "toon" or whatever else you call them.

I see someone already posted you some links proving what I say so I don't need to.

Yea... I'm the "ridiculous" one.

[Mister D]

I just heard this motherfucker was on a scholarship...I hope that's not true.

[Micketto]

Really Dude ... are you that sheltered ... ? What do you think was talked about for two days.

Google it yourself ... try a CNN Reporters Live Interview. :rollseyes:


I never heard anyone talk about "brown people". A Saudi National (you know, the one Obama snuck out of the country real quick) was the only one I heard discussed, until the photos were released yesterday.

Are you the type of person that is always looking to accuse/defend racism, even where there is none ?

People like you are a dime-a-dozen.

[Chris]

I say the same thing about Gangs :wink: how about you?

About anything.

[Mainecoons]

Is it my imagination or are the MSM dodging identifying these individuals as Islamics?

[Chris]

The suspects were identified by law enforcement officials and a family member as Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, brothers from a Russian region near Chechnya, which has been plagued by an Islamic insurgency that has carried out deadly bombings. They lived near Boston and had been in the U.S. for about a decade, an uncle said.



Read more @ http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/1-of-2-suspects-in-Boston-bombing-killed-4446981.php#ixzz2Quto57iE

[Private Pickle]

They are Chechen muslims.

[junie]

his "world view" is listed as islam





Who Is Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the Man at the Center of the Boston Manhunt?

Under an alternate spelling of his name, we found a "Djohar Tsarnaev" on Russian Facebook, (http://vk.com/id160300242)who lists the Cambridge Rindge and Latin school as the last school he went to — and Boston as his current city.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/who-is-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-boston/64382/


Pete Williams of NBC News reports that Tsarnaev (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/19/17817173-one-boston-marathon-suspect-killed-second-suspect-his-brother-on-loose-after-firefight?lite) "entered the United States with family in 2002 or 2003, and that Tamerlan Tsarnaev became a legal permanent resident in 2007." Tsarnaev has a Massachusetts driver's license.
The City of Cambridge awarded "Dzhokhar Tsarnaev" a $2,500 scholarship in 2011, according to Boston.com report (http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/cambridge/2011/05/cambridge_announces_2011_city.html). "The city is awarding the $2,500 scholarships to 45 students using contributions from citizens and businesses. About 35 to 45 scholarships are awarded each year, according to the city," reported Boston.com's Brock Parker. Tsarnaev was a senior at Cambridge Rindge and Latin School then. This time frame would make sense if the AP is reporting that Tsarnaev was in the U.S. for at least a year.


Under an alternate spelling of his name, we found a "Djohar Tsarnaev" on Russian Facebook, (http://vk.com/id160300242)who lists the Cambridge Rindge and Latin school as the last school he went to — and Boston as his current city.


The age and name match up, with the suspect as well as his school. He was checking in with social media yesterday. You'll also see his world view is "Islam" and personal priorities are "Career and money."

[Greenridgeman]

They are Chechen muslims.


Yet, listening to Fox Business right now, I have not heard that that was their motivation.

I keep hearing it just might have been "personal dissatisfaction with their situation" and crap like that.

My point is, why are they here?

What did they offer the US when the US admitted them into this country?

[Mainecoons]

Yup, more Muslims.


Tamerlan Tsarnaev, one of the two Chechen brothers identified as the suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing, was a self-described “very religious” Muslim boxer who yearned for Chechen independence and who posed for a photo essay entitled “Will Box for Passport.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/19/dead-boston-bombing-suspect-was-a-very-religious-muslim-boxer/#ixzz2Qv7970Wd

[Greenridgeman]

Yup, more Muslims.






[/FONT][/COLOR]


I wonder, were they radicals when the got here, or radicalized by elitist, leftist schools?

[Mainecoons]

They are radicalized by the religion.

[Greenridgeman]

They are radicalized by the religion.



Fox Business reports father in Russia warns all Hell will break lose if surviving son is killed.

Why do we let these people in?

[Mainecoons]

Because the west is in denial about the religion.

Where did two people like this come up with the knowledge and materials to build bombs that are commonly used in Afghanistan and Pakistan? They've been in the U.S. for 10 years. They were pretty young when they came here.

There were people behind them, training them and supplying them. This isn't an isolated incident by two people.

They need to capture the other one as he may lead them to the backers.

[Mister D]

The US doesn't even have a good relationship with Russia. I guess it's not all that odd that as radicalized Muslims they would attack a US target but the conflict in Chechnya has little if anything to do with us.

[Greenridgeman]

Because the west is in denial about the religion.

Where did two people like this come up with the knowledge and materials to build bombs that are commonly used in Afghanistan and Pakistan? They've been in the U.S. for 10 years. They were pretty young when they came here.

There were people behind them, training them and supplying them. This isn't an isolated incident by two people.

They need to capture the other one as he may lead them to the backers.



We need to quit letting people in willy-nilly in the name of diversity.

We need to seal our borders, examine closely those here legally on visas, etc, or illegally, and we need a policy of only admitting people with skills and training our economy needs.

I'd like to know how these guys got here.

[Ransom]

Fox Business reports father in Russia warns all Hell will break lose if surviving son is killed.

Why do we let these people in?

I wonder if the father of the killed 8 year old boy cares about his son's killer's father or his definition of hell breaking loose.

But good question, why do we let these people in?

should this incident effect immigration initiatives?

[Greenridgeman]

The US doesn't even have a good relationship with Russia. I guess it's not all that odd that as radicalized Muslims they would attack a US target but the conflict in Chechnya has little if anything to do with us.


I think some Chechnyan may think we implied support against the Russians that we did not deliver.

It was long ago in a place far away.........but, apparently they had a grudge or some sort.

[Greenridgeman]

I wonder if the father of the killed 8 year old boy cares about his son's killer's father or his definition of hell breaking loose.

But good question, why do we let these people in?

should this incident effect immigration initiatives?




The father in Russia may have legions of these guys he can turn loose, for all we know.

[Mister D]

I think some Chechnyan may think we implied support against the Russians that we did not deliver.

It was long ago in a place far away.........but, apparently they had a grudge or some sort.

We very well could have but you would think there real beef is with Russia. This would likely draw the US into the conflict rather than out of it.

[Ransom]

The father in Russia may have legions of these guys he can turn loose, for all we know.

Let's pray our legions who can be turned loose as well aren't prevented from doing so. Their nationality may be irrelevant, their religion may be irrelevant as well, who knows why anyone does this. But this father can go on all day and night if he'd like, he's no idea what all hell breaking loose means.

Your two sons unleash murder and mayhem on innocent women and children and you threaten hell breaking loose?

Please.

[Chloe]

Hopefully he surrenders without any issues and isn't killed. I'd be interested to know what's in his head and the reasons he and his brother did what they did. I'm sure they have their reasons and so if he dies then we may never really know.

[Chloe]

It's also really creepy knowing that I am the same age as this person. I can't imagine what is going through his head right now and what in his past got him to this point.

[Chris]

They are radicalized by the religion.

I see it as religion radicalized by politics.

[Common]

Hopefully he surrenders without any issues and isn't killed. I'd be interested to know what's in his head and the reasons he and his brother did what they did. I'm sure they have their reasons and so if he dies then we may never really know.

Yes, it would be better to be able to interview this guy and see what and who is behind it.

[Chris]

Hopefully he surrenders without any issues and isn't killed. I'd be interested to know what's in his head and the reasons he and his brother did what they did. I'm sure they have their reasons and so if he dies then we may never really know.

Brainwashed by Islamism his head may be empty.

[Chloe]

Brainwashed by Islamism his head may be empty.

I'd rather wait and see what he has to say instead of assuming a religion is to blame.

[Common]

It's also really creepy knowing that I am the same age as this person. I can't imagine what is going through his head right now and what in his past got him to this point.

Chloe it may be just an old guys perception and have no basis of truth, but it seems to me that young people today have much more of a propensity to violence. Ive thought about this and talked about it alot with other old guys and we all seem to agree that theres been a desensitizing of young men. They have been desensitized to violence through rap and rap videos and video games and endless murderous movies like Born to kill. This I dont believe is a perception I believe its a fact, young men today do not have the respect for women my generation had and thats a shame. Like it or lump it men and women are not the same and you cant make the equal by demanding it.

[Mister D]

Hopefully he surrenders without any issues and isn't killed. I'd be interested to know what's in his head and the reasons he and his brother did what they did. I'm sure they have their reasons and so if he dies then we may never really know.

His reasons seem obvious enough but we'll know for sure soon.

[Mister D]

I'd rather wait and see what he has to say instead of assuming a religion is to blame.

Nationalism, race, and religion are obviously intertwined here. They often are.

[Chloe]

His reasons seem obvious enough but we'll know for sure soon.

They aren't that obvious really. Right now it's all assumptions based on his name, birthplace, and religion.

[Mister D]

They aren't that obvious really. Right now it's all assumptions based on his name, birthplace, and religion.

OK I'm going to go out on a limb and say his ethnic origin and religion determined in large measure his motivation. :smiley:

[Chloe]

OK I'm going to go out on a limb and say his ethnic origin and religion determined in large measure his motivation. :smiley:

I understand that but it's still just speculation. If he lives then perhaps we'd know and if he says its because of Islam or whatever then we will know. He could have just been following his brothers lead and had a different reason all together. I'm just saying we shouldnt rush to blame a religion or ethnic region.

[Mister D]

I understand that but it's still just speculation. If he lives then perhaps we'd know and if he says its because of Islam or whatever then we will know. He could have just been following his brothers lead and had a different reason all together. I'm just saying we shouldnt rush to blame a religion or ethnic region.

Informed speculation and quite likely, no?

I'm not blaming a religion or ethnic group for this anymore than I blame a race for crime when I point out how much our crime stats are raised by blacks and Hispanics. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims in the world and tens of millions of blacks in the US. The vast majority aren't terrorists or criminals respectively.

[junie]

The suspects in the attack on the Boston Marathon — one killed, one on the loose — are brothers with a background in the separatist Russian republic of Chechnya, at least one a legal permanent resident of the United States, law enforcement officials told NBC News.


While authorities were not sure of a motive, NBC News learned that counterterrorism officials were examining possible links between the Boston bombers and the Islamic Jihad Union of central Asia. Chechnya is predominantly Muslim.


“Somebody radicalized them, but it wasn’t my brother,” the men’s uncle, Ruslan Tsarni, told reporters Friday from Montgomery Village, Md. He encouraged his nephew to turn himself in and said the two had brought shame on Chechens. He said that he had encouraged his own family to stay away from that part of the family.

“What I think was behind it: Being losers,” he said. “Of course we’re ashamed.”


The suspect at large early Friday was identified Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, born in Kyrgyzstan, holding a Massachusetts driver’s license and living in the Boston suburb of Cambridge. He was the suspect in the white hat in surveillance photos from the marathon released by the FBI.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/19/17824210-as-profile-of-bombing-suspects-emerges-uncle-says-were-ashamed?lite







The brothers’ family members are urging Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to turn himself in. Ruslan Tsami, his uncle in Maryland, doesn’t want Chechnya to be harmed by association with the bombers.

Anzor Tsarnaev, the brothers’ father, told ABC News that he spoke with his sons this week. They reportedly copped to the bombing. “Give up. Give up. You have a bright future ahead of you. Come home to Russia,” Anzor said he told his sons.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/boston-manhunt/




As of this writing, a SWAT team, with guns drawn and helicopters overhead, may have cornered (http://pix11.com/live/#axzz2Qud2Fe8i) the young Tsarnaev. Police are yelling into a house in Watertown, northwest of Boston, for Tsarnaev — who is believed to be armed and dangerous, possibly with explosives on his person — to give himself up. The FBI is on the scene, as are people in Army uniforms, most likely Massachusetts National Guardsmen.


This is believed to be an account (http://vk.com/id160300242) for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, believed to be of Chechen origin. People have been sending him “Gifts” of cop cars, bombs and bricks.
Last night, around 10:50 p.m., Dzhokhar and his older brother Tamerlan — the two suspects identified by the FBI yesterday in connection to the bombings (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/04/boston-suspects/) — robbed a 7-Eleven and shot a responding MIT police officer (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit-gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/4UeCClOVeLr8PHLvDa99zK/story.html) dead. They then reportedly carjacked an SUV and drove to Watertown. Tamerlan — whose YouTube account is, apparently, here (http://www.youtube.com/user/muazseyfullah) — was killed by police.


Right now, law enforcement is yelling into the house in Watertown for a man they believe is Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to come out.


We’ll update this piece as more becomes clear. The manhunt for the Boston Marathon bombers looks like it’s entering a critical phase.


Update, 9:19 a.m.: If the brothers Tsarnaev had to rob a 7-Eleven and steal a car to get out of town, that’ll become a significant aspect of the investigation. It does not fit a pattern of a foreign-sponsored terrorist effort.


Update, 9:29 a.m.: National Guardsmen are moving into the 22-block Watertown radius where, reportedly, multiple locations are under suspicion.

The Boston Globe reports that an “explosive trigger (http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit-gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/4UeCClOVeLr8PHLvDa99zK/story.html)” was found on the corpse of Tamerlan Tsarnaev.








9:15 a.m.: CBS’s Boston affiliate WBZ interviewed (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/19/bombing-suspects-uncle-says-hes-shocked/) the Tsarnaev brothers’ uncle Ruslan Tsarni. When the station informed him of Tamerlan’s death, Tsarni said the young man “deserved it” and called him a “loser.” Tsarni said he always tried to encourage the boys to focus less on Islam, and more on school, telling them to “be useful. Know why you came to America.”

A second uncle (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/19/2nd-uncle-of-bombing-suspects-yesterday-he-called-me/), Alvi Tsarni told CBS News that Tamerlan called him yesterday: “He called me and said ‘forgive me,’” he told CBS. “It’s crazy, it’s not possible, I can’t believe he did this.”


9:02 a.m.: The Massachusetts State Police asks all reporters to keep the location of the shootout under wraps.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/04/19/watch-video-of-shootout-between-police-and-boston-bombing-suspect/

[Chris]

I'd rather wait and see what he has to say instead of assuming a religion is to blame.

My emotions say shoot him, my mind says you're right, he might have useful information, which raises the question, would torture be justified in obtaining intel useful to saving lives?

[Chloe]

My emotions say shoot him, my mind says you're right, he might have useful information, which raises the question, would torture be justified in obtaining intel useful to saving lives?

In my opinion no

[jillian]

Chloe it may be just an old guys perception and have no basis of truth, but it seems to me that young people today have much more of a propensity to violence. Ive thought about this and talked about it alot with other old guys and we all seem to agree that theres been a desensitizing of young men. They have been desensitized to violence through rap and rap videos and video games and endless murderous movies like Born to kill. This I dont believe is a perception I believe its a fact, young men today do not have the respect for women my generation had and thats a shame. Like it or lump it men and women are not the same and you cant make the equal by demanding it.

young people have always been the useful idiots in wars of hatred...

the combination of testosterone, feeling of righteous indignation and sense of immortality work together very well. it's why the people who go to war are young.

so, yes, compared to "old" folk, it's the young who do these things...

but it's always been.

[jillian]

My emotions say shoot him, my mind says you're right, he might have useful information, which raises the question, would torture be justified in obtaining intel useful to saving lives?

if you think you should be judge, jury and executioner, then you're no better than people like him.

torture makes you no better than him.

personally, i want to see him in shackles, standing trial.

just because we engaged in a policy of torture for eight years doesn't mean that embarrassment should continue.

[junie]

imo the fact that they robbed a seven11 and hijacked a car last night, just reinforces they were nothing but misguided punks...






The suspects were identified by law enforcement officials and family members as Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, brothers from a Russian region near Chechnya.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, a 26-year-old who had been known to the FBI as Suspect No. 1 and was seen in surveillance footage in a black baseball cap, was killed overnight, officials said.

His brother, a 19-year-old college student who was dubbed Suspect No. 2, escaped. He was seen wearing a white, backward baseball cap in the images from Monday’s deadly bombing at the marathon finish line.



‘‘Dzhokhar, if you are alive, turn yourself in and ask for forgiveness,’’ Tsarni said.



They lived near Boston and had been in the U.S. for about a decade, Tsarni said. He said he had not seen them since December 2005. . He said his nephews had struggled to settle themselves in the U.S. and ended up ‘‘thereby just hating everyone.’’



Asked what he thought provoked the bombings, Tsarni said: ‘‘Being losers, hatred to those who were able to settle themselves. These are the only reasons I can imagine of. Anything else, anything else to do with religion, with Islam, it’s a fraud, it’s a fake.’’



Tsarni, who described himself as Muslim, said his brother left the U.S. and he had not talked to him since 2009. He said they had a personal falling out but did not elaborate.


Chechnya has been plagued by an Islamic insurgency that has carried out deadly bombings.



Tsarni said vehemently that Chechnya had nothing to do with the attack.



‘‘I've been following from Day One, but would never imagine that somehow the children of my brother would be associated with that. So it is atrocity.’’

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/04/19/uncle-urges-bombing-suspect-turn-self/c4DCTTgLuBmAhAEnQOh6AN/story.html

[Chris]

In my opinion no

Have you seen Zero Dark Thirty?

[Chris]

if you think you should be judge, jury and executioner, then you're no better than people like him.

torture makes you no better than him.

personally, i want to see him in shackles, standing trial.

just because we engaged in a policy of torture for eight years doesn't mean that embarrassment should continue.

Train is coming down the track, approaching a switch, one way stands a criminal, other way a group of innocents. Which way would you throw the switch?

[Chloe]

Have you seen Zero Dark Thirty?

No I haven't, why?

[Chris]

No I haven't, why?

It's how they got Obama. Good movie anyway.

[Chloe]

It's how they got Obama. Good movie anyway.

Are you saying democrats were tortured into voting for Obama? :)

[Chris]

Are you saying democrats were tortured into voting for Obama? :)

:smiley_ROFLMAO: Sorry, I somehow confused Obama with bin Laden.

[junie]

Payack said the wrestling team thinks of itself as a family and there was nothing amiss about Dzhokhar, whose name is pronounced JA-har.


In a public high school that prides itself on its diversity, “he got along with all the different groups on the team,” Payack said.


“He never talked about being a Muslim. We’re in Cambridge. We have a completely diverse team. So nobody talked about religion,” Payack said. “He was just one of us.”


“We never saw his mother or father and never saw his brother,” Payack said. “He just came back to wrestle with us in February. I mean, he said, he went to UMass and he was studying some sort of engineering and he came back and wrestled, and he was joking with everyone.


“Never in a million years did [we] expect anything like this,” Payack said. “He never talked about violence or anything. Some of the kids say, ‘I’m going to beat you up or something like that.’ He just did his work and was a good student.”


Payack, who has run the Boston Marathon 24 times and often wears his blue-and-yellow Marathon jacket, said he was particularly saddened that Dzhokar would target the race.

“It was like a bomb going off in my heart this morning because he’s one of our wrestlers. I said ‘That guy looks like my guy.’ ”


Ashraful Rahman, a Rindge senior and friend of Dzhokhar, described the alleged bomber as “just a normal guy, very chillaxed, and very laid back.”


He and Dzhokhar wrestled on the Rindge team together, hung out together at Dana Park in Cambridge and attended the same mosque, the Islamic Society of Boston, in Cambridge.


“We just chilled out man, just average teenagers,” Rahman said. “He never stated that he was against the government or for anarchy or anything.”

Rahman said Dzhokhar mentored him on the wrestling team.





Rahman said the last time he saw Dzhokhar was on Ramadan in 2012, at the Islamic Society. “He said ‘what’s up’ to me,” Rahman said. “He seemed peaceful, actually.”


Essah Chisholm, 17, a senior at Rindge and member of the wrestling team, said the coaches would tell funny stories about how people would mispronounce Dzhokhar’s name.
“He seemed pretty nice, pretty normal person; he was always smiling,” Chisholm said. “Everything is pretty shocking.”





John Allan, owner of Wai Kru Mixed Martial Arts Boston, said the older brother, Tamerlan, was an accomplished amateur boxer, competing in the national Golden Gloves competition.

“He was the best boxer in Boston,” said Allan, who remembers helping in a competition three years ago. “He smoked all the professionals.”


Allan said Tamerlan was trained by his father, who was also a skilled boxer. And he was always respectful. “They were an incredible family....This was so shocking to me.”


2389

But Tamerlan hadn’t been to the Wai Kru Mixed Martial Arts center in years, instead going to another nearby boxing gym. Until this month. Allan, who is currently traveling in Thailand, got an e-mail within the past week saying Tsarnaev showed up at the gym acting rude and disrespectful, using other people’s equipment, walking on the mats with his shoes.


“It was a clear indication that something was up,” Allan said, noting that (Tamerlan) Tsarnaev hadn’t even been to his gym before the incident in years. “He was becoming a complete [expletive].


“It was completely out of place of place for him,” said Allan, who was also contacted by the FBI about Tamerlan.


He also said he thought that the older brother did so well in the Golden Gloves several years ago that he could have qualified for the US Olympic trials, but that he may not have been eligible because of a paperwork problem.


Allan said Tamerlan mainly boxed at the Cambridge-Somerville Boxing Club, which he thought used the YMCA facility in Central Square in Cambridge.


Tamerlan, who boxed at 196 pounds, studied at Bunker Hill Community College and wanted to become an engineer. He attended the school part time for three semesters, from 2006 to 2008, according to the school.


In the photo essay, called “Will Box for Passport,” Tamerlan stops to answer a phone call while walking from his Mercedes to the martial arts center. He has a long wool scarf wrapped fashionably around his neck and gleaming white leather slip-on shoes and is carrying an Oceanfly dufflebag.


He said in the essay that he quit smoking and drinking. “God said no alcohol.” A Muslim, he says, “There are no values any more,” and worries that “people can’t control themselves.”


http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04/19/cambridge-wrestling-coach-recalls-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-dedicated-kid/WjY1NDVadrsVFI2IhyHsLI/story.html






interesting... i bet the younger brother was heavily influenced by the anger and frustration of his older brother... ^

[Mister D]

“There are no values any more,” and worries that “people can’t control themselves.”

He's right about that. I've come to despise the character of modernity but I don't see how his murderous actions could possibly help the situation.

[junie]

“There are no values any more,” and worries that “people can’t control themselves.”

He's right about that. I've come to despise the character of modernity but I don't see how his murderous actions could possibly help the situation.



evidently they just couldn't control themselves from murdering innocents... :cry:

[Mister D]

evidently they just couldn't control themselves from murdering innocents... :cry:

Apparently, not.

[Micketto]

I understand that but it's still just speculation. If he lives then perhaps we'd know and if he says its because of Islam or whatever then we will know. He could have just been following his brothers lead and had a different reason all together. I'm just saying we shouldnt rush to blame a religion or ethnic region.

I agree it would be more interesting to hear it in his own words instead of just accepting the assumptions people make.
But the reality is... people in his situation rarely answer the questions.

My money is on him committing suicide anyway.

[Micketto]

It's how they got Obama. Good movie anyway.

I heard it was just a "campaign video" for Obama.... but then when I saw it I realize that was wrong, and I was reminded how everything that led to getting bin Laden was started by George Bush. Not that it matters, that wasn't news.... just funny how people can misrepresent things.

Regardless... it took 3 attempts of watching it to finally finish it. I was too bored to finish it the 1st 2 times.

[junie]

Apparently, not.



hmm having a beer vs blowing people up...what to do, what to do........... :loco: :iamwithstupid:

[junie]

I agree it would be more interesting to hear it in his own words instead of just accepting the assumptions people make.
But the reality is... people in his situation rarely answer the questions.

My money is on him committing suicide anyway.



if he hasn't already... i'm hoping they take him out alive, but mostly i just hope no more innocents get hurt...

[Chris]

I heard it was just a "campaign video" for Obama.... but then when I saw it I realize that was wrong, and I was reminded how everything that led to getting bin Laden was started by George Bush. Not that it matters, that wasn't news.... just funny how people can misrepresent things.

Regardless... it took 3 attempts of watching it to finally finish it. I was too bored to finish it the 1st 2 times.

What I was impressed most with was the sifting of fine pieces of intelligence, the years of work, the persistence.

In the movie they show a speech or two, wholly insignificant to getting bin Laden.

[Ransom]

Are you saying democrats were tortured into voting for Obama? :)

No one....and I do mean no one, who didn't vote for Obama, has a clue as to why anyone else voted for him.

It's why I never got into the prediction game regarding our elections. How does anyone determine what anyone is thinking when they walk into the polling booth. Bombarded by tv ads, radio waves, roadside posters, activist chantings, who knows what people are thinking when they vote.

I know many who didn't like either candidate, said it did hurt to finally choose one, they lacked confidence in both. Our nation surely has been tortured by his Presidency though. The lack of leadership and/or direction, the lack of consistent policy, the constant bantering and campaign style policy wonking.....is an embarrassment.

Imo.

[Greenridgeman]

His reasons seem obvious enough but we'll know for sure soon.


I heard their mother had been arrested for theft at a different location of the same chain store near where the bombs went off.

It could have been some weird family honor thing.

[Greenridgeman]

if he hasn't already... i'm hoping they take him out alive, but mostly i just hope no more innocents get hurt...



I am for taking him alive, debriefing him and executing him just as swiftly as Tim McVeigh.

Death toll was smaller, but not for lack of trying.

[Private Pickle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXXJHClvsCA

[Greenridgeman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXXJHClvsCA



Can't youtube here in the sticks, but recall Bob Marley:

"Remember he is smart, remember he is strong,

Remember he is young, and he will live long."

So, instead of Let Him Go, as Bob's song urges for the rude boy, this guy needs a ride on the Goodbye Gurney ASAP.

Question is, if caught alive, will Feds defer to Massachusetts, and not seek death penalty?

[Private Pickle]

Can't youtube here in the sticks, but recall Bob Marley:

"Remember he is smart, remember he is strong,

Remember he is young, and he will live long."

So, instead of Let Him Go, as Bob's song urges for the rude boy, this guy needs a ride on the Goodbye Gurney ASAP.

Question is, if caught alive, will Feds defer to Massachusetts, and not seek death penalty?

Doubtful. A Federal crime was comitted. I bet they ship him to Colorado for trial if they catch him alive.

[Greenridgeman]

Doubtful. A Federal crime was comitted. I bet they ship him to Colorado for trial if they catch him alive.


I meant defer to Massachusetts' lack of a death penalty, and not seek it in federal court, out of deference to sensibilities.

I did not mean to imply they would defer prosecution to the state.

[Peter1469]

Hopefully he surrenders without any issues and isn't killed. I'd be interested to know what's in his head and the reasons he and his brother did what they did. I'm sure they have their reasons and so if he dies then we may never really know.

Don't bet on him being taken alive. We need to do so; get him to GITMO and water-board him to find out if they were supported by a nation - state or an international terrorist organization. Once we have that info I would put a bullet in his head.

[Ransom]

I believe he's an American Citizen and thus innocent until proven guilty by a jury of his peers. True?

[Peter1469]

Are they US citizens?

[Ransom]

CBS News correspondent Bob Orr reported the brothers were believed to be living legally in the U.S., but they were not here as students.
The network reported Friday afternoon that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev became an American citizen on Sept. 11, 2012.

Now.......this is what CBS is saying so......grain of salt you take this with, ok?

[Ransom]

Miller reported that Tamerlan Tsarnaev threw a bomb at police as he approached them and that’s when officers shot and killed him. This bomb is reported to be a pressure cooker bomb, the same that was used in the Boston Marathon attack.
BROTHER RUNS OVER BROTHER
Shortsleeve’s source said Dzhokhar Tsarnaev then jumped back in the Mercedes, drove over his brother’s body, threw bombs at police and crashed again. He ran off and that sparked the massive manhunt in Watertown.


http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/19/report-boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-in-custody-second-at-large/

Drove over his brother's body?

Wow. One almost hopes Tamerlan wasn't quite gone yet and felt that one! Live by the sword.........

[Mainecoons]

I'll wager some of the undiscovered Muslim participants are hiding this kid right now.

This deal involved more than the two of them. Count on it.

[zelmo1234]

In my opinion no

Then he is useless kill him!

[Dr. Who]

I wonder if they were ethnic Russians or Caucasians?

Caucasian as in from the Caucasus, people. :rollseyes:
Chechnya. "Chechnya was a country in the Northern Caucasus which has been in almost constant battle against foreign rule since the 15th century. Eventually the Chechens converted to Sunni Islam (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Islam), largely encouraged by the motive of receiving help from the Ottoman Empire (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) against Russian encroachment.[14] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-14)[15] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-15) The Russian Terek Cossack Host (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Terek_Cossack_Host) was secretly established in Chechnya in 1577 by free Cossacks resettled from the Volga (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Volga) to the Terek River (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Terek_River). Later Ermolow declared Chechnya as a part of Russian Empire." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

[Chloe]

Then he is useless kill him!

You can get information without torture

[zelmo1234]

You are right maybe you can bake him a cake and take him to a movie, that should work!

He is a mad man like his borther, very likely he will try to take others with him if they get close, but then he will lawyer up and we will get nothing but anti amreican propoganda!

I am with Pete break out the water board, but I would shoot him in the stomach and then st by and drink nice pitcures of Ice water while he dies.

I have no reguare for someone that plants a bobm by an 8 year old! NONE!

[Chloe]

Don't bet on him being taken alive. We need to do so; get him to GITMO and water-board him to find out if they were supported by a nation - state or an international terrorist organization. Once we have that info I would put a bullet in his head.

I don't think we need to just throw away our humanity over this and go crazy with torture and calls for revenge and things like that though in my opinion.

[Chloe]

We shouldn't want to take joy in seeing him suffer no matter how bad his crimes were. Shooting him in the stomach and watching him die a slow death or drowning him until he gives out worthless information is twisted and unnecessary in my opinion and only shows that we are also incapable of feeling. In my opinion the more we retaliate and torture and lower ourselves and continue to give radicals reasons to keep attacking us then the cycle will never ever stop. These two guys committed horrible crimes and the one remaining guy should face trial and spend the rest of his life in jail if found guilty, but torturing him, making him suffer and so on will only make us look bad across the world. Why do we need to take sympathy from the world and turn it around just to satisfy some macabre bloodlust for revenge? I do not get it.

And I know i'm going to get attacked and labeled for what I just said but i'm sorry but it's sad and kind of scary to see how just crazily rabid people can get and how our humanity can just be suspended out of anger like this. You can't condemn one act of inhumanity while also desiring to commit your own act of inhumanity in my opinion. It doesn't make sense.

[Dr. Who]

Brainwashed by Islamism his head may be empty.
Islam is not the problem, it is radical Imams who use Islam to deliver their distinctly unreligious agenda. Unfortunately, unlike some other religions, their is no central Islamic authority, so anyone can basically call themselves an Imam if they are a prayer leader. The word actually has more than one meaning - could also be a head of state. Nevertheless, usually Imams have attended Islamic study courses and then applied to a mosque to work as an Imam. The problem is that some selectively interpret the Qur'an to advance their own agenda, like Feiz Mohammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feiz_Mohammad), the radical Imam who apparently influenced the two bombers.

[roadmaster]

But this brother is dangerous, killed a cop sitting in his car and bombed as much as he could. I think there are more people involved but don't think he wants to be arrested. They will probably have to kill him.

[Greenridgeman]

You can get information without torture

You personally know this, or is this an opinion?

[Chloe]

You personally know this, or is this an opinion?

It's my opinion

[BillyBob]

You can get false information without torture

That's true, but where's the fun in that?

[Dr. Who]

We shouldn't want to take joy in seeing him suffer no matter how bad his crimes were. Shooting him in the stomach and watching him die a slow death or drowning him until he gives out worthless information is twisted and unnecessary in my opinion and only shows that we are also incapable of feeling. In my opinion the more we retaliate and torture and lower ourselves and continue to give radicals reasons to keep attacking us then the cycle will never ever stop. These two guys committed horrible crimes and the one remaining guy should face trial and spend the rest of his life in jail if found guilty, but torturing him, making him suffer and so on will only make us look bad across the world. Why do we need to take sympathy from the world and turn it around just to satisfy some macabre bloodlust for revenge? I do not get it.

And I know i'm going to get attacked and labeled for what I just said but i'm sorry but it's sad and kind of scary to see how just crazily rabid people can get and how our humanity can just be suspended out of anger like this. You can't condemn one act of inhumanity while also desiring to commit your own act of inhumanity in my opinion. It doesn't make sense.
I agree. Becoming as bad as the enemy does not enhance your credibility or send the message that you actually practice what you preach.

[BillyBob]

I'll wager some of the undiscovered Muslim participants are hiding this kid right now.

This deal involved more than the two of them. Count on it.


No doubt, these brothers did not act alone. We know of a Saudi national who is connected to this and I'm sure there are many more islamo-fascists in the loop.

[roadmaster]

You personally know this, or is this an opinion?

It's been going on for years, that and money. Maybe people think shop owners just give money away because they want to or it could be they are put them in fear.

[Greenridgeman]

It's my opinion


Just wondering.

I am pretty sure you have never been arrested or otherwise subjected to heavy interrogation.

I have, been threatened with long jail term, harsher charges, if I didn't rat out a guy over some weed the asshole left in my car.

Wasn't even my weed, and I didn't even particularly like the guy; I had a wife and kids, but did not snitch even though I wanted out badly.

Had they cranked up a dentist's drill, or come in with cattle prods, the hint of torture would have worked.

One cannot say torture does not work.

[simpsonofpg]

The family is being blamed for what there two brother did and that is not right. Punish the guilty but just becasuse they are part of a family does not make the aunts and uncles guilty.

[Chloe]

The family is being blamed for what there two brother did and that is not right. Punish the guilty but just becasuse they are part of a family does not make the aunts and uncles guilty.

That has been bothering me as well. I also find it strange that people are questioning why the mom and dad are defending their kids. They found out probably at the same time we all did that they were the suspects and I'm sure that they are just shocked and in disbelief.

[roadmaster]

The family is being blamed for what there two brother did and that is not right. Punish the guilty but just becasuse they are part of a family does not make the aunts and uncles guilty.

Most likely the family has nothing to do with this. It's the group they met and who talked them into this. Both of these kids had a future ahead of them.

[BillyBob]

The younger brother has been apprehended...and shot.

[Dr. Who]

The younger brother has been apprehended...and shot.
All in all, a waste of life, from start to finish. So many lives lost or ruined, and what did this terrorism accomplish? I feel sad for humanity, having had so much time to learn and learning nothing.

[BillyBob]

All in all, a waste of life, from start to finish.

I see what you did there. [Nice marathon pun!]



So many lives lost or ruined, and what did this terrorism accomplish? I feel sad for humanity, having had so much time to learn and learning nothing.

He has emboldened more muslim terrorists to continue attacking the US and he succeeded in giving the Feds another reason to erode American liberties. From his perspective, he won.

[Peter1469]

I don't think we need to just throw away our humanity over this and go crazy with torture and calls for revenge and things like that though in my opinion.

It is not about revenge. It is about finding out who, if anyone, supported them. If it was a nation state or an international terrorist group, they will have to pay.

[Chloe]

It is not about revenge. It is about finding out who, if anyone, supported them. If it was a nation state or an international terrorist group, they will have to pay.

I honestly don't think going to war or something like that over this is the most appropriate thing to do.

[Peter1469]

We shouldn't want to take joy in seeing him suffer no matter how bad his crimes were. Shooting him in the stomach and watching him die a slow death or drowning him until he gives out worthless information is twisted and unnecessary in my opinion and only shows that we are also incapable of feeling. In my opinion the more we retaliate and torture and lower ourselves and continue to give radicals reasons to keep attacking us then the cycle will never ever stop. These two guys committed horrible crimes and the one remaining guy should face trial and spend the rest of his life in jail if found guilty, but torturing him, making him suffer and so on will only make us look bad across the world. Why do we need to take sympathy from the world and turn it around just to satisfy some macabre bloodlust for revenge? I do not get it.

And I know i'm going to get attacked and labeled for what I just said but i'm sorry but it's sad and kind of scary to see how just crazily rabid people can get and how our humanity can just be suspended out of anger like this. You can't condemn one act of inhumanity while also desiring to commit your own act of inhumanity in my opinion. It doesn't make sense.

People who are water boarded don't give out useless info. Ask bin Laden about that one.

[Ransom]

Islam is not the problem, it is radical Imams who use Islam to deliver their distinctly unreligious agenda. Unfortunately, unlike some other religions, their is no central Islamic authority, so anyone can basically call themselves an Imam if they are a prayer leader. The word actually has more than one meaning - could also be a head of state. Nevertheless, usually Imams have attended Islamic study courses and then applied to a mosque to work as an Imam. The problem is that some selectively interpret the Qur'an to advance their own agenda, like Feiz Mohammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feiz_Mohammad), the radical Imam who apparently influenced the two bombers.

The Bible too is interpreted to advance agendas, the Jewish faith used for the same purpose. But the outrage and vocal opposition to these endeavors needs to be, in my opinion, ratcheted up.

Sleeping giants have been awoken before throughout history, those doin the wakin don't do so well.

[Chloe]

People who are water boarded don't give out useless info. Ask bin Laden about that one.

There's no way to know though if the information is accurate or not when someone is just saying something to make the pain stop. Plus what does that make us? It makes us torturers.

[roadmaster]

The Bible too is interpreted to advance agendas, the Jewish faith used for the same purpose. But the outrage and vocal opposition to these endeavors needs to be, in my opinion, ratcheted up.

Sleeping giants have been awoken before throughout history, those doin the wakin don't do so well.

Or atheist like Hitler.

[Dr. Who]

I see what you did there. [Nice marathon pun!]




He has emboldened more muslim terrorists to continue attacking the US and he succeeded in giving the Feds another reason to erode American liberties. From his perspective, he won.
A pyrrhic victory. Nobody wins anything. Americans become more suspicious of Muslims, most of whom are good citizens. No one's life in the middle east or anywhere else is improved. All that is created is more distrust, while the purveyors of hate continue to spread their lies to the vulnerable and advance their own agenda, which has more to do with enhancing personal power than alleviating any ills in the world.

[Ransom]

I believe waterboarding was engaged and then subsequent interviews done with Khalid Sheik Mohammed revealed information critical to American national security. It isn't increasing pain until one talks, no one is expecting to extract information while the detainee is being waterboarded.

Chloe. We waterboarded three individuals. Some of the most heinous men in modern history. Who bragged about other plots already embedded on US soil, we were faced with quite the crisis. It was obvious afterwards that our intelligence communities hadn't been working in concert, that massive gaps existed in our entire security reality, the US public was obviously wide open and a valid target for Osama Bin Laden. Remember, al-Qaeda had already killed hundreds in embassies, sailors on the USS Cole, we had been caught with our pants down over and over again, the reality had to change on 9-12-01.

[roadmaster]

There's no way to know though if the information is accurate or not when someone is just saying something to make the pain stop. Plus what does that make us? It makes us torturers. It would be torture to take this man alive and I am sure he knows it. He doesn't know what pain is yet.

[Ransom]

Or atheist like Hitler.

He woke Mother Russia up. How did that work out for him?

[Peter1469]

There's no way to know though if the information is accurate or not when someone is just saying something to make the pain stop. Plus what does that make us? It makes us torturers.

Water boarding doesn't cause pain. It causes panic. Anyway, he is caught. Let's see what they do to him.

[Peter1469]

We shouldn't want to take joy in seeing him suffer no matter how bad his crimes were. Shooting him in the stomach and watching him die a slow death or drowning him until he gives out worthless information is twisted and unnecessary in my opinion and only shows that we are also incapable of feeling. In my opinion the more we retaliate and torture and lower ourselves and continue to give radicals reasons to keep attacking us then the cycle will never ever stop. These two guys committed horrible crimes and the one remaining guy should face trial and spend the rest of his life in jail if found guilty, but torturing him, making him suffer and so on will only make us look bad across the world. Why do we need to take sympathy from the world and turn it around just to satisfy some macabre bloodlust for revenge? I do not get it.

And I know i'm going to get attacked and labeled for what I just said but i'm sorry but it's sad and kind of scary to see how just crazily rabid people can get and how our humanity can just be suspended out of anger like this. You can't condemn one act of inhumanity while also desiring to commit your own act of inhumanity in my opinion. It doesn't make sense.

Right. We shouldn't take joy in it.

[Private Pickle]

They took him alive.

[Dr. Who]

The Bible too is interpreted to advance agendas, the Jewish faith used for the same purpose. But the outrage and vocal opposition to these endeavors needs to be, in my opinion, ratcheted up.

Sleeping giants have been awoken before throughout history, those doin the wakin don't do so well.
I think the difference is that generally Christian and Jewish transgressors may have less interest in the acquisition of personal power in the political sense, and more interest in either supporting or fund raising for an existing socio/religeous power base or for personal monetary gain. Furthermore, they do not advocate violent action.

[roadmaster]

They took him alive.

He probably lost a lot of blood.

[Mister D]

He woke Mother Russia up. How did that work out for him?

Pretty well. He kicked her ass. Hard. Problem was he woke the US up too.

[Mister D]

All in all, a waste of life, from start to finish. So many lives lost or ruined, and what did this terrorism accomplish? I feel sad for humanity, having had so much time to learn and learning nothing.

Or perhaps forgetting.

[Dr. Who]

Or perhaps forgetting.
Perhaps.

[Ransom]

Pretty well. He kicked her ass. Hard. Problem was he woke the US up too.

Was that the "problem was?" He woke the US up?

The US got to Berlin second, not first. 2/3 of German losses occurring on their eastern front, not to mention the rape, pillage, and plunder following and then decades of occupation.

[Greenridgeman]

Was that the "problem was?" He woke the US up?

The US got to Berlin second, not first. 2/3 of German losses occurring on their eastern front, not to mention the rape, pillage, and plunder following and then decades of occupation.


Can't compare the quality of German troops the Russians faced and beat, with the leftover old men and young boys the US faced.

The cream of the German military was dead before we got boots on the ground in Europe.

[Mister D]

Was that the "problem was?" He woke the US up?

The US got to Berlin second, not first. 2/3 of German losses occurring on their eastern front, not to mention the rape, pillage, and plunder following and then decades of occupation.

The Russians suffered all of their losses in the east. I think the disparity was something like 5 to 1. no doubt the war could not have een won without Russia blood. That said, it couldn't have been won without American supplies and cash either.

[Greenridgeman]

The Russians suffered all of their losses in the east. I think the disparity was something like 5 to 1. no doubt the war could not have een won without Russia blood. That said, it couldn't have been won without American supplies and cash either.



Germany, Japan and Italy were defeated.

I am not sure we "won" anything but a chance for a Cold War, Korean War, and War in Vietnam.

Patton had good idea really, we had an army newly battle hardened, the Reds had an army bled white.

We shoulda took 'em.

[Mister D]

Can't compare the quality of German troops the Russians faced and beat, with the leftover old men and young boys the US faced.

The cream of the German military was dead before we got boots on the ground in Europe.

The Germans had a better military even in 1944 relative to anything the Allies had in the east or west. The Germans typically used ad hoc forces to slow the western Allies down and, worse still, German troops preferred assignment in the west because Ambrose's citizen soldiers often didn't know what they were doing and were always fearful of losses. Allied material advantages were, however, simply to strong by then. We disagree here.

[Mister D]

Germany, Japan and Italy were defeated.

I am not sure we "won" anything but a chance for a Cold War, Korean War, and War in Vietnam.

Patton had good idea really, we had an army newly battle hardened, the Reds had an army bled white.

We shoulda took 'em.

Aside from Patton, we agree.

[Ransom]

The Russians suffered all of their losses in the east. I think the disparity was something like 5 to 1. no doubt the war could not have een won without Russia blood. That said, it couldn't have been won without American supplies and cash either.

The Russians won their greatest victories in the East as well. 5 to 1 sounds about right, Russia still has over 5 million in uniform in 1943.

After the viscious purges by Stalin, after a holocaust brought on by Nazis, it wasn't American cash nor supplies that beat the Nazis back.

[Ransom]

The Germans had a better military even in 1944 relative to anything the Allies had in the east or west. The Germans typically used ad hoc forces to slow the western Allies down and, worse still, German troops preferred assignment in the west because Ambrose's citizen soldiers often didn't know what they were doing and were always fearful of losses. Allied material advantages were, however, simply to strong by then. We disagree here.

Army comparisons perhaps, we were light years ahead in aircraft carrier production and design, we were matching anything the Germans could put up in the air, and allied material advantages were a reality long before 1944.

[Mister D]

The Russians won their greatest victories in the East as well. 5 to 1 sounds about right, Russia still has over 5 million in uniform in 1943.

After the viscious purges by Stalin, after a holocaust brought on by Nazis, it wasn't American cash nor supplies that beat the Nazis back.

5 to 1 sounds like a slaughter. It was. Consequently, by 1945 the Soviet military was scraping the bottom of the barrel. American aid in the form of food, clothing, radio parts, aluminum for airplanes, among much else was crucial to the Soviet war effort. So was the garrison Germany had to keep in the west whose presence in the east could easily have made the difference at any time. A Russian officer said it well: the Red Army marched to Berlin in American boots.

[Ransom]

But let's not lose the point. I had made the point that the entity playing alarm clock never does well in the outcomes. Germany woke the sleeping Russians, the Japanese woke industrious America up, the English chose to spin the hornets nest that was the American Colonies, the Muslim tide following the death of Mohammed awoke Christian Armies.

We can go back in history, we don't have to debate ww2. Whether great religions or great nations, a sleeping giant is best left undisturbed.

[Mister D]

Army comparisons perhaps, we were light years ahead in aircraft carrier production and design, we were matching anything the Germans could put up in the air, and allied material advantages were a reality long before 1944.

Aircraft carriers made few if any contributions in the European Theater and Allied material advantages were still a matter of potential for the first half of the war. Germany's failure to win quickly after America's entry all but doomed her.

[Mister D]

But let's not lose the point. I had made the point that the entity playing alarm clock never does well in the outcomes. Germany woke the sleeping Russians, the Japanese woke industrious America up, the English chose to spin the hornets nest that was the American Colonies, the Muslim tide following the death of Mohammed awoke Christian Armies.

We can go back in history, we don't have to debate ww2. Whether great religions or great nations, a sleeping giant is best left undisturbed.

The Russians weren't sleeping. They were Hitler's allies, annexed the Baltic states, and helped carve up Poland. Then we made a deal with that devil and fought a long Cold War as a consequence. Yes, what else could we do. True enough buy still tragic.

[Greenridgeman]

The Russians won their greatest victories in the East as well. 5 to 1 sounds about right, Russia still has over 5 million in uniform in 1943.

After the viscious purges by Stalin, after a holocaust brought on by Nazis, it wasn't American cash nor supplies that beat the Nazis back.


Where else would the Russians have won their greatest victories, if not in the East, which, to them, was the West?

[Ransom]

5 to 1 sounds like a slaughter. It was.

I agree it was. A greater debacle than even the French. Paulus left to surrender at Stalingrad. Entire Army Groups frozen solid on the Russian Steppe. The slaughter included civilians Mister D, the Nazi's took many thousands of prisoners....and cremated many hundreds of thousands more. The only human condition matching that of the Jew in Nazi prison and concentration camps were Russian pows. The Germans were eventually defeated and overrun by Russian hordes, the rape of Germany soon followed. Occupation for decades afterwards. It was a slaughter.


Consequently, by 1945 the Soviet military was scraping the bottom of the barrel. American aid in the form of food, clothing, radio parts, aluminum for airplanes, among much else was crucial to the Soviet war effort. So was the garrison Germany had to keep in the west whose presence in the east could easily have made the difference at any time. A Russian officer said it well: the Red Army marched to Berlin in American boots.

It saved it's own ass and won critical victories far east of Berlin in 1941-1945. With cavalry, T-34s, Russian machine guns. Russian artillery, rocket launchers, workers battalions, partisan activity, and a military redesign.

[Greenridgeman]

The Russians weren't sleeping. They were Hitler's allies, annexed the Baltic states, and helped carve up Poland. Then we made a deal with that devil and fought a long Cold War as a consequence. Yes, what else could we do. True enough buy still tragic.



My Dad's law partner met the Russians on the Elbe, and later was part of military government in Germany for a few years after the war.

He always said we could have and should have taken the Russians, we had the bomb, an tested but not bled out army, and the Russians had just lost more men taking Berlin than we lost in all of Europe.

He said we could have gone to Moscow for few men than we lost in Korea and Vietnam.

[Greenridgeman]

I agree it was. A greater debacle than even the French. Paulus left to surrender at Stalingrad. Entire Army Groups frozen solid on the Russian Steppe. The slaughter included civilians Mister D, the Nazi's took many thousands of prisoners....and cremated many hundreds of thousands more. The only human condition matching that of the Jew in Nazi prison and concentration camps were Russian pows. The Germans were eventually defeated and overrun by Russian hordes, the rape of Germany soon followed. Occupation for decades afterwards. It was a slaughter.



It saved it's own ass and won critical victories far east of Berlin in 1941-1945. With cavalry, T-34s, Russian machine guns. Russian artillery, rocket launchers, workers battalions, partisan activity, and a military redesign.


One thing you can say about Hitler, he treated his own soldiers and civilians with the same contempt he treated Poles, Jews, Russians, Gypsies.......!

What is more contemptible is that so called professional soldiers sat back and watched those armies be intentionally frozen or butchered at the command of a madman.

[Ransom]

The Russians weren't sleeping. They were Hitler's allies, annexed the Baltic states, and helped carve up Poland. Then we made a deal with that devil and fought a long Cold War as a consequence. Yes, what else could we do. True enough buy still tragic.

I think the initial progress proves beyond any doubt they were sound asleep. Their military purged, their existing leadership insufficient, their knowledge of German tactics lacking, they were outclassed immediately. Completely outclassed resulting in the "slaughter" you mentioned. However, they mobilized some 26 million and once the thermometer dipped below sub freezing, the hunters became the hunted.

[Ransom]

One thing you can say about Hitler, he treated his own soldiers and civilians with the same contempt he treated Poles, Jews, Russians, Gypsies.......!

What is more contemptible is that so called professional soldiers sat back and watched those armies be intentionally frozen or butchered at the command of a madman.

It's a great story and I suggest a read on the matter, discusses much of what you speak to above.

Alan B. Clark's Barbarossa, The Russian-German conflict 1941-1945

Clark a noted historian was Secretary of State in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet. Fascinating read.

[Greenridgeman]

I think the initial progress proves beyond any doubt they were sound asleep. Their military purged, their existing leadership insufficient, their knowledge of German tactics lacking, they were outclassed immediately. Completely outclassed resulting in the "slaughter" you mentioned. However, they mobilized some 26 million and once the thermometer dipped below sub freezing, the hunters became the hunted.


I had a professor who had been in the German army explain it this way.

The Germans thought they faced 100 divisions, when they had destroyed 150 divisions they had identified another 200 they knever new existed.

Not sure how accurate that is, he did say the T-34 was very important, but, even if tanks had been equal, the Germans could not deal with human wave assault from millions of Siberians.

[Ransom]

Mister D, I suggest you yourself read that book. One for the 'reading room' in your home, you can download as well.

[Ransom]

I had a professor who had been in the German army explain it this way.

The Germans thought they faced 100 divisions, when they had destroyed 150 divisions they had identified another 200 they knever new existed.

Not sure how accurate that is, he did say the T-34 was very important, but, even if tanks had been equal, the Germans could not deal with human wave assault from millions of Siberians.

Nazi Germany had about as much chance as the Confederate South. Little to none. Spectacular military achievements aside, both were doomed in their respective causes quite early. They both woke sleeping giants and were annihilated.

[Greenridgeman]

It's a great story and I suggest a read on the matter, discusses much of what you speak to above.

Alan B. Clark's Barbarossa, The Russian-German conflict 1941-1945

Clark a noted historian was Secretary of State in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet. Fascinating read.


I read it long ago. I majored in history, prefer fiction when I read now.

[Greenridgeman]

Nazi Germany had about as much chance as the Confederate South. Little to none. Spectacular military achievements aside, both were doomed in their respective causes quite early. They both woke sleeping giants and were annihilated.


Difference, though, initially the Germans were greeted as liberators from communism; they immediately started with the atrocities, ensuring defeat.

Had Japan attacked Vladivostok instead of Pearl Harbor, it would have gone down differently too.

[Mister D]

I agree it was. A greater debacle than even the French. Paulus left to surrender at Stalingrad. Entire Army Groups frozen solid on the Russian Steppe. The slaughter included civilians Mister D, the Nazi's took many thousands of prisoners....and cremated many hundreds of thousands more. The only human condition matching that of the Jew in Nazi prison and concentration camps were Russian pows. The Germans were eventually defeated and overrun by Russian hordes, the rape of Germany soon followed. Occupation for decades afterwards. It was a slaughter.



It saved it's own ass and won critical victories far east of Berlin in 1941-1945. With cavalry, T-34s, Russian machine guns. Russian artillery, rocket launchers, workers battalions, partisan activity, and a military redesign.

I was only referring to military losses when I mentioned that casualty disparity. No, the Germans took millions of prisoners many of whom died in German camps. Ransom, many more Russians than Germans died in WW2. Many more both in terms of military personnel and civilians. That's a fact. I'm not sure why that bothers you so much. I'd mention the fact that many Soviet citizens fought with the Germans but I'd imagine you will lose your shit.

Perhaps you think I'm downplaying Russian resolve and sacrifice? Cavalry? Beyond recon it was obsolete. In any case, American aid was vital to Russia. That's also a fact. I'm not sure why that bothers you so much either. It certainly doesn't detract from Russia's accomplishment.

[Mister D]

I had a professor who had been in the German army explain it this way.

The Germans thought they faced 100 divisions, when they had destroyed 150 divisions they had identified another 200 they knever new existed.

Not sure how accurate that is, he did say the T-34 was very important, but, even if tanks had been equal, the Germans could not deal with human wave assault from millions of Siberians.

Sure they could which is why the Russians adjusted their tactics. Human waves were a desperate measure in 1941 and were used sparingly in the later years because they ere typically mowed down. Anyway, @Ransom (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=724) Green's comment illustrates the horrendous casualties the Red Army suffered.

[Mister D]

It's a great story and I suggest a read on the matter, discusses much of what you speak to above.

Alan B. Clark's Barbarossa, The Russian-German conflict 1941-1945

Clark a noted historian was Secretary of State in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet. Fascinating read.

Read it in my mid 20s. Not sure what your point is.

[Mister D]

Nazi Germany had about as much chance as the Confederate South. Little to none. Spectacular military achievements aside, both were doomed in their respective causes quite early. They both woke sleeping giants and were annihilated.

Nazi Germany nearly won as it was. If the US had never entered the war the USSR was likely doomed.

[Mister D]

Again, Ransom, the USSR was not sleeping. It was Hitler's ally, annexed the Baltic states, and carved up Poland. The Soviet regime was just as evil as the Nazi regime.

[Greenridgeman]

Aircraft carriers made few if any contributions in the European Theater and Allied material advantages were still a matter of potential for the first half of the war. Germany's failure to win quickly after America's entry all but doomed her.


Germany was losing at Stalingrad and El Alamain when we entered though.

Red Army and Lend Lease had turned the tide.

After Pearl Harbor, we still had to wait for Hitler to stupidly declare war on us.

Bringing the US in against the Axis, instead of attacking Russia as the Germans approached Moscow, was about the stupidest thing any country ever did, IMNSHO.

[Greenridgeman]

Sure they could which is why the Russians adjusted their tactics. Human waves were a desperate measure in 1941 and were used sparingly in the later years because they ere typically mowed down. Anyway, @Ransom (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=724) Green's comment illustrates the horrendous casualties the Red Army suffered.


Have we jacked this thread or what!

[Mister D]

Germany was losing at Stalingrad and El Alamain when we entered though.

Red Army and Lend Lease had turned the tide.

After Pearl Harbor, we still had to wait for Hitler to stupidly declare war on us.

Bringing the US in against the Axis, instead of attacking Russia as the Germans approached Moscow, was about the stupidest thing any country ever did, IMNSHO.

We were already in the war for a year by the time of Stalingrad. The Germans had 200K men in Norway alone in 1942 because of a potential Allied invasion. What if even half of those men were available for use in the east?

I agree on Japan. The lack of coordination and Germany's declaration of war on the US assured her defeta if she did not win before America's industrial potential could be brought to bear.

[Mister D]

Have we jacked this thread or what!

:laugh:

[Greenridgeman]

Nazi Germany nearly won as it was. If the US had never entered the war the USSR was likely doomed.


I don't think so. Stalingrad and El Alamain were before we really got in.

I think the Germans were doomed when they started, not prepared for winter, not prepared for a long war, not prepared for T-34(how in Hell did they miss that) and not prepared for millions of Asiatic hordes like we later faced in Korea.

[Mister D]

I don't think so. Stalingrad and El Alamain were before we really got in.

I think the Germans were doomed when they started, not prepared for winter, not prepared for a long war, not prepared for T-34(how in Hell did they miss that) and not prepared for millions of Asiatic hordes like we later faced in Korea.

Lend Lease began in the Spring of 1941 and supplies were reaching Russia before Germany was even at war with the US.

A tank is only as good as its crew. Russian crews, particularly early in the war, weren't well trained. red Army armored units were typically smashed.

[Ransom]

I was only referring to military losses when I mentioned that casualty disparity. No, the Germans took millions of prisoners many of whom died in German camps. Ransom, many more Russians than Germans died in WW2. Many more both in terms of military personnel and civilians. That's a fact. I'm not sure why that bothers you so much. I'd mention the fact that many Soviet citizens fought with the Germans but I'd imagine you will lose your shit.

Your errors in history here don't bother me, Mister D, and the Russian German conflict and your need to read the book I submitted aren't the point here. Greenridgeman and I could school you all evening on the matter, it's irrelevant to the point. If you choose to believe it was America who was awoken by Germany, that's fine, it doesn't change my point. It didn't work out well for the Germans.


Perhaps you think I'm downplaying Russian resolve and sacrifice? Cavalry? Beyond recon it was obsolete. In any case, American aid was vital to Russia. That's also a fact. I'm not sure why that bothers you so much either. It certainly doesn't detract from Russia's accomplishment.

American aid was vital to Russia. But that aid didn't begin to truly influence the campaign until later years. And the "Russia's accomplishmen" you speak to here....is the awakening I was spoke to. Germany's savage occupation policies and their insistence on always being on the initiative proved fatal, they never had the wherewithall, even had they occupied Moscow, their position so far from home would have been untenable. They never really had a chance.

[Greenridgeman]

We were already in the war for a year by the time of Stalingrad. The Germans had 200K men in Norway alone in 1942 because of a potential Allied invasion. What if even half of those men were available for use in the east?

I agree on Japan. The lack of coordination and Germany's declaration of war on the US assured her defeta if she did not win before America's industrial potential could be brought to bear.


Chronologically challenged and multi-tasking I defer to you and 1943 surrender of 6th Army, not 1942.

Must pay attention!!

[Mister D]

Your errors in history here don't bother me, Mister D, and the Russian German conflict and your need to read the book I submitted aren't the point here. Greenridgeman and I could school you all evening on the matter, it's irrelevant to the point. If you choose to believe it was America who was awoken by Germany, that's fine, it doesn't change my point. It didn't work out well for the Germans.



American aid was vital to Russia. But that aid didn't begin to truly influence the campaign until later years. And the "Russia's accomplishmen" you speak to here....is the awakening I was spoke to. Germany's savage occupation policies and their insistence on always being on the initiative proved fatal, they never had the wherewithall, even had they occupied Moscow, their position so far from home would have been untenable. They never really had a chance.

Of course American aid was vital to Russia. You should have ended there.

Again, Ransom, Russia was not sleeping. She was Hitler's ally, annexed the Baltic states, and carved up Poland with the Nazis. Maybe she was sleep walking? :laugh:

[Ransom]

Lend Lease began in the Spring of 1941 and supplies were reaching Russia before Germany was even at war with the US.

A tank is only as good as its crew. Russian crews, particularly early in the war, weren't well trained. red Army armored units were typically smashed.

Half the shipments coming in from the far east port of Vladivostok, 90% being non military supplies. Correct?

[Ransom]

Of course American aid was vital to Russia. You should have ended there.

Again, Ransom, Russia was not sleeping. She was Hitler's ally, annexed the Baltic states, and carved up Poland with the Nazis. Maybe she was sleep walking? :laugh:

So even if the giant sleep walks.....let it snooze and wander about. Don't wake it up.

[Greenridgeman]

Of course American aid was vital to Russia. You should have ended there.

Again, Ransom, Russia was not sleeping. She was Hitler's ally, annexed the Baltic states, and carved up Poland with the Nazis. Maybe she was sleep walking? :laugh:


Part of Russia's problem early on was that Stalin thought he had Hitler in his grip, scared of him like everyone else, and refused to admit that the massive troop build up on the Eastern Front and the overflights by Germans were the prelude to invasion.

When the invasion came, he went into shock, refused to believe it, and retreated to his dacha and did not issue orders for almost two weeks.

An army officer corp already decimated by waves of purges by this madman almost had to wing it, and hardly had many officers with inititative.

Adam Ulam's" Stalin is a great read too.

The true monster of the 20th century, he makes Hitler look like a boy scout.

I'd say choirboy, but I think both Hitler and Stalin did their stints as choirboys, not sure which sang better.

[Greenridgeman]

So even if the giant sleep walks.....let it snooze and wander about. Don't wake it up.


The American left might well heed those words regarding the right.

[Ransom]

The point can be seen throughout history. I believe it was the Muslim expansions following the death of Mohammed that partly woke Christianity from it's mid centuries snooze.

The tide reached central France, the alarm clock went off. Charlemagne's.

[Mister D]

The point can be seen throughout history. I believe it was the Muslim expansions following the death of Mohammed that partly woke Christianity from it's mid centuries snooze.

The tide reached central France, the alarm clock went off. Charlemagne's.

Yeah, that's why Islam remained a dire threat to Christendom for the next 600 plus years after Charlemagne's death.

[Mister D]

Half the shipments coming in from the far east port of Vladivostok, 90% being non military supplies. Correct?

Don't know the percentages but you can't fight effectively without the resources referred to above (i.e. food, clothing, trucks!, and so forth). Do you realize that the US delivered around 400,000 trucks and other vehicles? The Red Army moved in large part on the US dollar. The US also sent around 10-12000 AFVs (armored fighting vehicles).

[Mister D]

So even if the giant sleep walks.....let it snooze and wander about. Don't wake it up.

The USSR wasn't sleeping, Ransom. It was calculating the entire time.

[Greenridgeman]

Yeah, that's why Islam remained a dire threat to Christendom for the next 600 plus years after Charlemagne's death.



Islam has ceased to be a threat to Christendom?

Islam is doing to Europe what it could not do with the sword, it is conquering by birthrate.

A Jesse Jackson tried and proven way to get political power in a generation or two.

Generations being spaced 14 years or so apart.

[Mister D]

Islam has ceased to be a threat to Christendom?

Islam is doing to Europe what it could not do with the sword, it is conquering by birthrate.

A Jesse Jackson tried and proven way to get political power in a generation or two.

Generations being spaced 14 years or so apart.

In terms of military conquest. I agree regarding Europe's demographic issues.

[Greenridgeman]

Don't know the percentages but you can't fight effectively without the resources referred to above (i.e. food, clothing, trucks!, and so forth). Do you realize that the US delivered around 400,000 trucks and other vehicles? The Red Army moved in large part on the US dollar. The US also sent around 10-12000 AFVs (armored fighting vehicles).



Had Japan struck Russia on their Pacific Coast, rather than the US at Pearl Harbor, things would have turned out much differently.

[Mister D]

Had Japan struck Russia on their Pacific Coast, rather than the US at Pearl Harbor, things would have turned out much differently.

I agree. Japan took a huge gamble and lost. Hitler's declaration of war on the US was another huge gamble. Both gambles resulted in defeat.

Interestingly enough, the Japanese Army performed rather poorly against the Soviets in the late 1930s.

[Greenridgeman]

I agree. Japan took a huge gamble and lost. Hitler's declaration of war on the US was another huge gamble. Both gambles resulted in defeat.

Interestingly enough, the Japanese Army performed rather poorly against the Soviets in the late 1930s.


They had such crap basic infantry weapons.

Good enough for die in place battle I guess, or masscre of Chinese peasants.

Not so good in a banzai charge though.

[Mister D]

They had such crap basic infantry weapons.

Good enough for die in place battle I guess, or masscre of Chinese peasants.

Not so good in a banzai charge though.

Yeah, their tanks and infantry weapons were obsolete. In a full scale war over level terrain I don't think the IJA would have lasted long. They were fortunate to be fighting the Americans over bad terrain.

[Greenridgeman]

Yeah, their tanks and infantry weapons were obsolete. In a full scale war over level terrain I don't think the IJA would have lasted long. They were fortunate to be fighting the Americans over bad terrain.


In hindsight, we should never have invaded half of those islands, rather, waited for the A-bomb.

I do realize countless air crews owe their lives to those who died taking airfield islands.

[Mister D]

In hindsight, we should never have invaded half of those island, rather, waited for the A-bomb.

I do realize countless air crews owe their lives to those who died taking airfield islands.

Some of them presented no strategic threat. The Japanese garrisoned some places that we never even touched.

Aircraft crew losses were shockingly high in Europe but thankfully the Japanese also had shitty AA defenses.

[Greenridgeman]

Some of them presented no strategic threat. The Japanese garrisoned some places that we never even touched.

Aircraft crew losses were shockingly high in Europe but thankfully the Japanese also had shitty AA defenses.


As a kid, I was amazed how Japanese kept popping up for decades after the war ended.

I was in Guam in 1968 when one showed up.

[Mister D]

As a kid, I was amazed how Japanese kept popping up for decades after the war ended.

I was in Guam in 1968 when one showed up.

Oh wow. That must have been interesting...and a little weird.

[Greenridgeman]

Oh wow. That must have been interesting...and a little weird.


It really was. Some showed in the Philippines even later than that.

High speed net and some time would generate a lot of interesting stuff on Japanese die hards that walked out as late as the 60's.

I have neither.

I have an acre of garden ready to plant, when the dew dries, I have to take the disc off of the tractor, and begin what will be weekly mowing from now until October.

Ain't the South wonderful.

But for all these record late lows, I'd have planted and mowed a month ago.

I had frost here Saturday night, the last, I hope.

[Mister D]

It really was. Some showed in the Philippines even later than that.

High speed net and some time would generate a lot of interesting stuff on Japanese die hards that walked out as late as the 60's.

I have neither.

I have an acre of garden ready to plant, when the dew dries, I have to take the disc off of the tractor, and begin what will be weekly mowing from now until October.

Ain't the South wonderful.

But for all these record late lows, I'd have planted and mowed a month ago.

I had frost here Saturday night, the last, I hope.

Didn't one guy pop up in 1972?

1974, actually. Crazy story.

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-soldier-who-wouldnt-quit/


It's been a cool Spring here too.

[Common]

The last known japanese holdout surrendered in 1974 in indonesia.

Intelligence officer Hiroo Onoda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda), who was relieved of duty by his former commanding officer on Lubang Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubang_Island) in the Philippines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines) in March 1974, and Teruo Nakamura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teruo_Nakamura), who was stationed on Morotai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morotai) Island in Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia) and surrendered in December 1974, were the last confirmed holdouts, though rumors persisted of others.

[Ransom]

Don't know the percentages but you can't fight effectively without the resources referred to above (i.e. food, clothing, trucks!, and so forth). Do you realize that the US delivered around 400,000 trucks and other vehicles? The Red Army moved in large part on the US dollar. The US also sent around 10-12000 AFVs (armored fighting vehicles).

The Red Army initially moved backwards while enduring the slaughter you spoke to, Mister D. And the Nazis never feared their trucks nor AFVs. Their T-34s, their rocket launcing artilleries that Germany had no answer for just as they had no answer for sub freezing temperatures. Many thousands of German soldiers dying of gas gangrene, they literally froze their asses off.

[Ransom]

Yeah, that's why Islam remained a dire threat to Christendom for the next 600 plus years after Charlemagne's death.

That word you used telling, they did remain a mere 'dire threat.' The bark much much worse than the bite was the reality. Charlemagne's Grandfather setting the stage with perhaps the most influential military victory in Christian history, it was The Hammer who actually awoke Christiandom, it was Tours that became the Muslim's historic high water mark in Europe. The slaughter you speak to occurred upon the Muslim Armies, Martel eventually pushing them clear out of the Frank Kingdom. A critical victory in the East as well in the early 8th century(Leo I believe) at Constantinople...and Christian Europe was free to create what is now the Euro nation states, Charlemagne the first Christian King(considered by many anyway), Christiandom left to prosper and grow for centuries. I can offer some great reads, D, you seem a tad lost.

[Mister D]

The Red Army initially moved backwards while enduring the slaughter you spoke to, Mister D. And the Nazis never feared their trucks nor AFVs. Their T-34s, their rocket launcing artilleries that Germany had no answer for just as they had no answer for sub freezing temperatures. Many thousands of German soldiers dying of gas gangrene, they literally froze their asses off.

The Red Army was hurled backwards with millions of casualties.

You don't seem to understand logistics and how armies move. That's OK though. :smiley:

Hey, how did the Germans manage to destory so many of those T-34s they had no answer to?

[Mister D]

That word you used telling, they did remain a mere 'dire threat.' The bark much much worse than the bite was the reality. Charlemagne's Grandfather setting the stage with perhaps the most influential military victory in Christian history, it was The Hammer who actually awoke Christiandom, it was Tours that became the Muslim's historic high water mark in Europe. The slaughter you speak to occurred upon the Muslim Armies, Martel eventually pushing them clear out of the Frank Kingdom. A critical victory in the East as well in the early 8th century(Leo I believe) at Constantinople...and Christian Europe was free to create what is now the Euro nation states, Charlemagne the first Christian King(considered by many anyway), Christiandom left to prosper and grow for centuries. I can offer some great reads, D, you seem a tad lost.

Christendom was relatively poor and backward in many respects relative to the Islamic world. Also, Constantinople fell to the Ottomans who threatened and in fact conquered parts of Europe. In fact they were they the strongest regional power up until the late 16th Century.

I'm glad you have so many books. When are you going to get around to reading them?

[Ransom]

The Red Army was hurled backwards with millions of casualties.

Exactly. Hurled back until the Moscow Volga Canal....and then savagely counterattacked in sub freezing tempertures and hurled the Germans back..and then burned and raped Berlin itself. The systematic rape and pillage of Germany written about in the books with the unbroken bindings in your home marked, History.


You don't seem to understand logistics and how armies move. That's OK though.

I offered the best source of info on the Barbarossa campaign, you didn't read it did you?


Hey, how did the Germans manage to destory so many of those T-34s they had no answer to?

Because the Germans didn't focus on the trucks and atvs you mistakenly claim made the difference.

[Greenridgeman]

Exactly. Hurled back until the Moscow Volga Canal....and then savagely counterattacked in sub freezing tempertures and hurled the Germans back..and then burned and raped Berlin itself. The systematic rape and pillage of Germany written about in the books with the unbroken bindings in your home marked, History.







I offered the best source of info on the Barbarossa campaign, you didn't read it did you?



Because the Germans didn't focus on the trucks and atvs you mistakenly claim made the difference.


Sow rape, pillage and murder, reap rape, pillage and murder.

Lesson to Germany, don't start wars you cannot finish.

[Ransom]

Christendom was relatively poor and backward in many respects relative to the Islamic world.

Until they were awoken, you are correct. Lending right to the points I'm making, thank you


Also, Constantinople fell to the Ottomans who threatened and in fact conquered parts of Europe. In fact they were they the strongest regional power up until the late 16th Century.

Constantinople was in fact defended centuries earlier by the Byzantines under Leo III in 717 who inflicted a catastrophic defeat on the Muslim fleet. In one of the first recorded uses of Greek Fire, Leo and Constantinople's defenders burned the Moslem fleet smd destroyed the Moslem army that eventually returned home withonly 30,000 remaining..out of an invasion force of 150-200,000. Many believe this defeat of the great Saracen Army in the East even more influential than Martel's in 732. Myself, I believe Martel's was even more influential. being that Charles Martel, the Hammer.....who slayed the invading Moslem army..had a son...who was named Pepin. Who then had a son named Charles(Charlemagne.) But whatever the more influential battle or campaign.......the victories by the Byzantines in the East and Franks in the West allowed Christiandom to grow and prosper uninterrupted for centuries. Ths was born the great empires and nation states of Christian Europe.


I'm glad you have so many books. When are you going to get around to reading them?

Thus ends today's lesson. What else can I teach you?

[Mister D]

Exactly. Hurled back until the Moscow Volga Canal....and then savagely counterattacked in sub freezing tempertures and hurled the Germans back..and then burned and raped Berlin itself. The systematic rape and pillage of Germany written about in the books with the unbroken bindings in your home marked, History.



I offered the best source of info on the Barbarossa campaign, you didn't read it did you?



Because the Germans didn't focus on the trucks and atvs you mistakenly claim made the difference.

Yet the Germans kept the initative after the Soviet Winter Offensive of 1941 and utterly annihilated the Soviet offensive the following Spring. Mind you, the Red Army had already suffered millions of casualties at this point.

You did? A book from the 1960s? It was a great read but I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Anyway, if you don't understand how modern armies move and are supplied that's OK.

The Germans took out so many T-34s because they didn't focus on trucks? Yeah, that makes sense. You're babbling now.

[Greenridgeman]

Yet the Germans kept the initative after the Soviet Winter Offensive of 1941 and utterly annihilated the Soviet offensive the following Spring. Mind you, the Red Army had already suffered millions of casualties at this point.

You did? A book from the 1960s? It was a great read but I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Anyway, if you don't understand how modern armies move and are supplied that's OK.

The Germans took out so many T-34s because they didn't focus on trucks? Yeah, that makes sense. You're babbling now.



They took out so many T-34s because there were so many T-34s.

Russians weren't even painting them, rolling them off the assembly line, onto the streets, and into battle.

Thousands were destroyed, tens of thousands were not.

[Mister D]

Until they were awoken, you are correct. Lending right to the points I'm making, thank you



Constantinople was in fact defended centuries earlier by the Byzantines under Leo III in 717 who inflicted a catastrophic defeat on the Muslim fleet. In one of the first recorded uses of Greek Fire, Leo and Constantinople's defenders burned the Moslem fleet smd destroyed the Moslem army that eventually returned home withonly 30,000 remaining..out of an invasion force of 150-200,000. Many believe this defeat of the great Saracen Army in the East even more influential than Martel's in 732. Myself, I believe Martel's was even more influential. being that Charles Martel, the Hammer.....who slayed the invading Moslem army..had a son...who was named Pepin. Who then had a son named Charles(Charlemagne.) But whatever the more influential battle or campaign.......the victories by the Byzantines in the East and Franks in the West allowed Christiandom to grow and prosper uninterrupted for centuries. Ths was born the great empires and nation states of Christian Europe.



Thus ends today's lesson. What else can I teach you?

You claimed they were awoken by Martel and Charlemagne. Again, Christendom was relatively poor and backward in some respects relative to the Islamic world centuries after their deaths. Try again.

Constantinople fell to the Ottomans and their empire fell much earlier to Muslim incursions. When are you going to read all those books? After that, we can have a real discussion.

[Ransom]

Yet the Germans kept the initative after the Soviet Winter Offensive of 1941 and utterly annihilated the Soviet offensive the following Spring. Mind you, the Red Army had already suffered millions of casualties at this point.

And had millions more in reserve. Leading to historic sieges and the a turnaround of epic proportions. Stalingrad's attackers entombed and marched through Moscow as prisoners


You did? A book from the 1960s? It was a great read but I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Anyway, if you don't understand how modern armies move and are supplied that's OK.

We weren't discussing modern armies, we were discussing the Russian Army that owed most of it's mobility to huge calvary divisions. Modern armies use aircraft, helicopters, transports much more capable. If you'd, just read the book...any book actually, you'll see I'm quite correct and quite informed on this topic. Please catch up.

The Germans took out so many T-34s because they didn't focus on trucks? Yeah, that makes sense. You're babbling now.[/QUOTE]

[Mister D]

They took out so many T-34s because there were so many T-34s.

Russians weren't even painting them, rolling them off the assembly line, onto the streets, and into battle.

Thousands were destroyed, tens of thousands were not.

But you claimed they didn't have an answer for the T-34. Apparently, they did or they wouldn't have been able to destroy thousands of them. :smiley:

[Greenridgeman]

[QUOTE=Mister D;272655]But you claimed they didn't have an answer for the T-34. Apparently, they did or they wouldn't have been able to destroy thousands of them. :smiley:[/QUOTE

They did not have an answer to the NUMBERS of T-34's.

The did not have an equally rugged, cheap to build(relatively) easy to maintain tank that could fight well in mud that they could manufacture in the numbers needed.


That you Mr. Detail

[Ransom]

But you claimed they didn't have an answer for the T-34. Apparently, they did or they wouldn't have been able to destroy thousands of them. :smiley:

Not until the Tiger and Panther made their appearances. The t-34 was the undisputed queen of the campaign until the Nazis realized their tanks weren't as good. The t-34 was superior to all but the most recently refitted Panzers, tanks with an 88 installed for example. The German anti-tank gun ineffective, the t-34's sloped turret causing shells to bounce off, it was an ingenius design. In fact, German engineers were sent to the front early to study the tank, the Germans were very impressed. No mention if they were impressed with the Russian lorries.

[Mister D]

And had millions more in reserve. Leading to historic sieges and the a turnaround of epic proportions. Stalingrad's attackers entombed and marched through Moscow as prisoners



We weren't discussing modern armies, we were discussing the Russian Army that owed most of it's mobility to huge calvary divisions. Modern armies use aircraft, helicopters, transports much more capable. If you'd, just read the book...any book actually, you'll see I'm quite correct and quite informed on this topic. Please catch up.

The Germans took out so many T-34s because they didn't focus on trucks? Yeah, that makes sense. You're babbling now.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the Russians had great reserves of manpower and were able to survive the sheer waste of human lives that was a consequence of their poor tactical skills and incompetence. Hence the casualty disparity.

WW2 was a modern war and the thousands of trucks provided by the US helped move the Red Army, feed it, and supply it. You don't appear to understand logistics. Cavalry kept the Russian army fed and supplied? lol

[Greenridgeman]

Not until the Tiger and Panther made their appearances. The t-34 was the undisputed queen of the campaign until the Nazis realized their tanks weren't as good. The t-34 was superior to all but the most recently refitted Panzers, tanks with an 88 installed for example. The German anti-tank gun ineffective, the t-34's sloped turret causing shells to bounce off, it was an ingenius design. In fact, German engineers were sent to the front early to study the tank, the Germans were very impressed. No mention if they were impressed with the Russian lorries.



Has another thread been hijacked, or did we hijack this one pages back, and I already commented?

[Mister D]

Not until the Tiger and Panther made their appearances. The t-34 was the undisputed queen of the campaign until the Nazis realized their tanks weren't as good. The t-34 was superior to all but the most recently refitted Panzers, tanks with an 88 installed for example. The German anti-tank gun ineffective, the t-34's sloped turret causing shells to bounce off, it was an ingenius design. In fact, German engineers were sent to the front early to study the tank, the Germans were very impressed. No mention if they were impressed with the Russian lorries.

Yet the T-34 wasn't able to stop the German advances of 1941 and 1942. That's because the Germans chopped up Russian formations using tanks that were technically inferior. Again, a tank is only as good as its crew. The German Mark III and IV repeatedly triumphed over the T-34 and KV.

[Ransom]

Yes, the Russians had great reserves of manpower and were able to survive the sheer waste of human lives that was a consequence of their poor tactical skills and incompetence. Hence the casualty disparity.

They were able to survive sheer waste of human life and consequences much worse.....they had been awoken. Thanks for remaking my point.


WW2 was a modern war and the thousands of trucks provided by the US helped move the Red Army, feed it, and supply it. You don't appear to understand logistics. Cavalry kept the Russian army fed and supplied? lol

They did help move the Red Army and supply it. They helped. Your uninformed status regarding this conflict can be changed, if you'd simply do the research. Thanks.

[Greenridgeman]

Yes, the Russians had great reserves of manpower and were able to survive the sheer waste of human lives that was a consequence of their poor tactical skills and incompetence. Hence the casualty disparity.

WW2 was a modern war and the thousands of trucks provided by the US helped move the Red Army, feed it, and supply it. You don't appear to understand logistics. Cavalry kept the Russian army fed and supplied? lol[/QUOTE]



In the know Germans knew the war was lost the first time they killed Red Army soldiers with cans of Hormel Spam made in the GOUSA.

[Mister D]

[QUOTE=Mister D;272655]But you claimed they didn't have an answer for the T-34. Apparently, they did or they wouldn't have been able to destroy thousands of them. :smiley:[/QUOTE

They did not have an answer to the NUMBERS of T-34's.

The did not have an equally rugged, cheap to build(relatively) easy to maintain tank that could fight well in mud that they could manufacture in the numbers needed.


That you Mr. Detail

So they had an answer. It was just that the Russians had a much greater number of lives and machines to waste. Right. You're starting to get it now...

[Greenridgeman]

[QUOTE=Greenridgeman;272656]

So they had an answer. It was just that the Russians had a much greater number of lives and machines to waste. Right. You're starting to get it now...



Yes, they had an answer, the wrong answer.

Who got hung at the end?

[Mister D]

Yes, the Russians had great reserves of manpower and were able to survive the sheer waste of human lives that was a consequence of their poor tactical skills and incompetence. Hence the casualty disparity.

WW2 was a modern war and the thousands of trucks provided by the US helped move the Red Army, feed it, and supply it. You don't appear to understand logistics. Cavalry kept the Russian army fed and supplied? lol



In the know Germans knew the war was lost the first time they killed Red Army soldiers with cans of Hormel Spam made in the GOUSA.[/QUOTE]

The abundance of American materiel was of great consequence. That's all I've been saying but our Russian nationalist seems to be taking it personally. of course the Russian sacrifice in terms of lives and devastated countryside was the most important factor in Hitler's defeat.

[Ransom]

Yet the T-34 wasn't able to stop the German advances of 1941 and 1942.

Neither was the Lend Lease Act. Oops.


That's because the Germans chopped up Russian formations using tanks that were technically inferior. Again, a tank is only as good as its crew. The German Mark III and IV repeatedly triumphed over the T-34 and KV.

KV yes and they did repeatedly triumph...and repeatedly lost as well. Tank as good as it's crew....and don't forget leadership, a favorite German tactic was to target and destroy the command tank in any Russian formation, many tank commanders and military intelligensia murdered during Stalin's savage purges of the late 30's, the design and ability to move in terrain the Panzers wouldn't venture into made the difference. The battle of Moscow can example this. The German assault came along clogged roads, long lines of German armour being stretched out through the forests. The Russian T-34's from the recently brought up Siberian units cut through forest and attacked german panzers who had floundered on their bellies. The t-34 had wider tracks, was a better tank for that battlefield. I'm sorry your uninformed status continues to tank production as well. Live and learn, D.

[Greenridgeman]

In the know Germans knew the war was lost the first time they killed Red Army soldiers with cans of Hormel Spam made in the GOUSA.

The abundance of American materiel was of great consequence. That's all I've been saying but our Russian nationalist seems to be taking it personally. of course the Russian sacrifice in terms of lives and devastated countryside was the most important factor in Hitler's defeat.[/QUOTE]


Here is what years of reading about it convince me.

Germany could have defeated Russia, and Britain, but not withthe karpetfresser as CinC.

[Mister D]

Neither was the Lend Lease Act. Oops.



KV yes and they did repeatedly triumph...and repeatedly lost as well. Tank as good as it's crew....and don't forget leadership, a favorite German tactic was to target and destroy the command tank in any Russian formation, many tank commanders and military intelligensia murdered during Stalin's savage purges of the late 30's, the design and ability to move in terrain the Panzers wouldn't venture into made the difference. The battle of Moscow can example this. The German assault came along clogged roads, long lines of German armour being stretched out through the forests. The Russian T-34's from the recently brought up Siberian units cut through forest and attacked german panzers who had floundered on their bellies. The t-34 had wider tracks, was a better tank for that battlefield. I'm sorry your uninformed status continues to tank production as well. Live and learn, D.

No one suggested it did. Oops. Dust yourself off and climb back on your T-34.

No, they fought their way to Volga and occupied much of Russia for years despite the T-34. These nationalist myths you were brought up on are bizarre, comrade. :smiley:

[Mister D]

The abundance of American materiel was of great consequence. That's all I've been saying but our Russian nationalist seems to be taking it personally. of course the Russian sacrifice in terms of lives and devastated countryside was the most important factor in Hitler's defeat.


Here is what years of reading about it convince me.

Germany could have defeated Russia, and Britain, but not withthe karpetfresser as CinC.[/QUOTE]

Alan Clark makes a somewhat different argument in Barbarossa (the book you guys mentioned). Sometimes, Hitler was right and the generals were wrong although by late 1943 AH was getting loopy.

[Greenridgeman]

No one suggested it did. Oops. Dust yourself off and climb back on your T-34.

No, they fought their way to Volga and occupied much of Russia for years despite the T-34. These nationalist myths you were brought up on are bizarre, comrade. :smiley:


I would say they co-occupied vasts areas of Russia for years.

Due to partisans, a German could die anywhere and anytime for almost all of that time.

[Mister D]

I would say they co-occupied vasts areas of Russia for years.

Due to partisans, a German could die anywhere and anytime for almost all of that time.

Hence many of the civilian casualties. Overall, the partisan war was a waste of human lives, IMO. That said in hindsight of course and from across the globe in an unthreatened country.

[Greenridgeman]

Here is what years of reading about it convince me.

Germany could have defeated Russia, and Britain, but not withthe karpetfresser as CinC.

Alan Clark makes a somewhat different argument in Barbarossa (the book you guys mentioned). Sometimes, Hitler was right and the generals were wrong although by late 1943 AH was getting loopy.[/QUOTE]


His refusal to yield an inch of ground to seize a mile or save a thousand or two men meant the generals could not do what had to be done, in the long run.


WWII is like being an LSU fan, and watching Alabama and Notre Dame.

You keep wishing the both could lose.


What evil is greater, race genocide or class genocide?

Stalin won on sheer numbers eliminated, though less technologically advance methods of genocide were the norm.

[Mister D]

Alan Clark makes a somewhat different argument in Barbarossa (the book you guys mentioned). Sometimes, Hitler was right and the generals were wrong although by late 1943 AH was getting loopy.


His refusal to yield an inch of ground to seize a mile or save a thousand or two men meant the generals could not do what had to be done, in the long run.


WWII is like being an LSU fan, and watching Alabama and Notre Dame.

You keep wishing the both could lose.


What evil is greater, race genocide or class genocide?

Stalin won on sheer numbers eliminated, though less technologically advance methods of genocide were the norm.[/QUOTE]

That's just it. You make an excellent point. "Race" and "class" amounted to the same thing: a dehumanized group to be eliminated.

[Mister D]

Regarding the proposed retreat before Moscow, Hitler's orders were benefical, IMO. I think the specter of Napoleon's disaster loomed large and the retreat could easily have become a rout.

[Greenridgeman]

His refusal to yield an inch of ground to seize a mile or save a thousand or two men meant the generals could not do what had to be done, in the long run.


WWII is like being an LSU fan, and watching Alabama and Notre Dame.

You keep wishing the both could lose.


What evil is greater, race genocide or class genocide?

Stalin won on sheer numbers eliminated, though less technologically advance methods of genocide were the norm.

That's just it. You make an excellent point. "Race" and "class" amounted to the same thing: a dehumanized group to be eliminated.[/QUOTE]


Today, nuclear families raising their own biological children on their own dime are the new kulaks.

[Ransom]

No one suggested it did. Oops. Dust yourself off and climb back on your T-34.

Put down the Nazi flag and the unreasonable praise for Hitler first.


No, they fought their way to Volga and occupied much of Russia for years despite the T-34. These nationalist myths you were brought up on are bizarre, comrade. :smiley:

They fought their way to the Volga...and it was then termed Verdun on the Volga. Course, I know that cause I've actually read about the campaign. :wink:

[Mister D]

Put down the Nazi flag and the unreasonable praise for Hitler first.



They fought their way to the Volga...and it was then termed Verdun on the Volga. Course, I know that cause I've actually read about the campaign. :wink:

Praise for Hitler? What?

Pssst...both sides suffered heavily at Stalingrad. The Russians, however, suffered more. You would know that if you read about the campaign. :wink:

[Greenridgeman]

Praise for Hitler? What?

Pssst...both sides suffered heavily at Stalingrad. The Russians, however, suffered more. You would know that if you read about the campaign. :wink:


Did you see that movie "Enemy at the gates".

Amazing how Hollywood works blowjobs into Eastern front combat films.

[Ransom]

Praise for Hitler? What?

Oh, I thought we were just allowed to throw anything out here like "crawl back onto your T-34", unstable stuff like that.....no?


Pssst...both sides suffered heavily at Stalingrad. The Russians, however, suffered more. You would know that if you read about the campaign. :wink:

The Russians initially suffered more during nearly every phase of the campaign...and yet ended up entombing the German 6th army at Stalingrad, and raping the German capitol. It's all in your history book, D. The one with the unbroken binding in your bookshelf.

[Mister D]

Oh, I thought we were just allowed to throw anything out here like "crawl back onto your T-34", unstable stuff like that.....no?



The Russians initially suffered more during nearly every phase of the campaign...and yet ended up entombing the German 6th army at Stalingrad, and raping the German capitol. It's all in your history book, D. The one with the unbroken binding in your bookshelf.


Not sure what that has to do with praise for Hitler. Hitler and Stalin were both monsters and ruled over monsterous systems.

The Russians suffered many more casualties than the Germans and US aid was crucial to Soviet success. Period. Not sure why this turned into such an argument.

[Ransom]

The Russians suffered many more casualties than the Germans and US aid was crucial to Soviet success. Period. Not sure why this turned into such an argument.

It isn't an argument, it's not even my point as I wrote several times. You got caught being inaccurate, got corrected, we move on. Geez.

[Mister D]

It isn't an argument, it's not even my point as I wrote several times. You got caught being inaccurate, got corrected, we move on. Geez.

:laugh: Ransom, you don't know what you're talking about. Let's recap!

1. The Russians suffered many more casualties than the Germans

2. American aid was crucial to the USSR which you finally admitted

3. Islam remained a serious threat for hundreds of years after the deaths of Martel and Charlemagne

4. The USSR was not a sleepng giant but a wide awake ally of Hitler's

There we are.

[Ransom]

1. The Russians suffered many more casualties than the Germans

And yet lost the war. Mother Russia awakened as was spot on to the point I: was making that you kept reaffirming for me. Thanks again.


2. American aid was crucial to the USSR which you finally admitted

American aid was helpful, not crucial, as has been shown.


3. Islam remained a serious threat for hundreds of years after the deaths of Martel and Charlemagne

Were defeated in detail and sent packing taking them centuries to seriously threaten Christiandom which experienced great growth and prosperity, as has been shown.


4. The USSR was not a sleepng giant but a wide awake ally of Hitler's

Schooling you on the actual historical facts has been my enjoyment, this certainly isn't the first or last debate you've lost. Wasn't your fault, you're outmatched.


There we are.

there is the matter of tuition that you rightly owe me. I've thoroughly schooled you on this topic, I would think tuition or fees are appropriate, I'll send my account info. It's been wonderful teaching you, have a great day now that you're more informed. -Ransom

[Mister D]

And yet lost the war. Mother Russia awakened as was spot on to the point I: was making that you kept reaffirming for me. Thanks again.


:laugh: No one claimed Germany won the war. Too much vodka? Again, Russia was a wide awake ally of Hitler's.


American aid was helpful, not crucial, as has been shown.


A necessary but not sufficient cause of the Allied victory. Thanks for admitting it.



Were defeated in detail and sent packing taking them centuries to seriously threaten Christiandom which experienced great growth and prosperity, as has been shown.


Uh, no. They continued to rule in Spain, destroyed the Byzantine Empire, and controlled many formerly Christian lands. Are you ever going to read those books?


Schooling you on the actual historical facts has been my enjoyment, this certainly isn't the first or last debate you've lost. Wasn't your fault, you're outmatched.


Run along, comrade. Sorry those nationalist myths didn't work out for you. :smiley:
there is the matter of tuition that you rightly owe me. I've thoroughly schooled you on this topic, I would think tuition or fees are appropriate, I'll send my account info. It's been wonderful teaching you, have a great day now that you're more informed. -Ransom

[Ransom]

No one claimed Germany won the war. Too much vodka? Again, Russia was a wide awake ally of Hitler's.

Drooling on your desk during history class earn you demerits?


A necessary but not sufficient cause of the Allied victory. Thanks for admitting it.

Necessary your word, not mine, and incorrect. Again.


Uh, no. They continued to rule in Spain, destroyed the Byzantine Empire, and controlled many formerly Christian lands. Are you ever going to read those books?

Byzantines really destroyed themselves and the required reading should include how Charlemagne came to power, awoken after centuries of stagnant inactivity.


Run along, comrade.

You probably have a swastika tatoo.

[Micketto]

These two guys committed horrible crimes and the one remaining guy should face trial and spend the rest of his life in jail if found guilty

Rest of his life ?!
I thought the party of "compassion" found life sentences too harsh.
He only killed innocent bystanders, a cop, maybe his brother.. and had more bombs for some purpose.

Why so harsh ?

[Micketto]

You can get information without torture

Maybe.
But from a trained terrorist you can't get reliable information without torture.

I don't think anyone is saying "torture first" in a search for info.
I think people, in general, just have no problem with murderers feeling some pain.

[junie]

Boston bombings suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev left note in boat

Boston bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev left claiming responsibility for the April 13 attack on the Boston Marathon, reports CBS News senior correspondent John Miller.

Sources tell Miller that Tsarnaev wrote the note in the boat he was hiding in as police pursued him, and as he bled from gunshot wounds sustained in an earlier shootout between police and his older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.



The note, scrawled with a pen on the interior wall of the cabin, said the bombings were retribution for U.S. military action in Afghanistan and Iraq, and called the Boston victims collateral damage in the same way Muslims have been in the American-led wars. "When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims," the note added.



Dzhokar said he didn't mourn older brother Tamerlan, the other suspect in the bombings, writing that by that point, Tamerlan was a martyr in paradise -- and that he expected to join him there.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57584771/boston-bombings-suspect-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-left-note-in-boat-he-hid-in-sources-say/