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Chris
05-11-2013, 11:12 AM
This is a little dated but I just came across it and it and it does a lot to explain the problem with liberal democracy: It turns us into juvenile delinquents.


Government brings out the kid in all of us. This truth is key to political understanding.

Nanny-state activities are government’s best-known way of babying its citizens....

But the nanny state’s frightfulness doesn’t end with these particular abuses and insults. Its pernicious effects run much deeper. In particular, the more we relinquish decision-making responsibility to government, the more childlike we become....

While the nanny state stunts personal growth, the political process encourages childlike behavior in a less obvious and more pernicious way. A mark of immaturity is the inability or unwillingness to make sound decisions—failure to weigh carefully the present and future benefits and costs of available alternatives. Because children cannot be trusted to make sound decisions, adults don’t give them much decision-making responsibility.

Why don’t parents let eight-year-olds decide how to spend the family income? Because with eight-year-olds in charge, the family would vacation for months on end at Disney World—and be broke in short order. When spending their parents’ money, eight-year-olds ignore the costs and long-run consequences of extended stays with Mickey Mouse, focusing only on the immediate thrills of such vacations. People who consistently act in ignorance of long-run consequences are rightly called “childish.”

By this criterion most voters behave childishly.

But citizens have no incentives to make mature decisions in the voting booth.

First, voters are typically asked to decide how to spend other people’s money....

Second, no single vote counts; no single vote decides the outcome of an election....

Thus, democratic elections encourage voters to behave irresponsibly in the voting booth

...rational weighing of costs and benefits is the mark of maturity. Pathetically, democratic voting encourages too many otherwise mature adults to behave like spoiled brats propped on Santa’s knee.



@ Juvenile Delinquency (http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/juvenile-delinquency#axzz2SK6Xbtpo)

Common
05-11-2013, 08:43 PM
This is nonesense, we had far more juvenile delinquency long before liberals had anything to do with america. There used to be reform schools everywhere and Father FLanagans boys school. Juvenile delinquency was as big a problem in the 50s as it was today. Its all about poverty and back them inner city slums and skid rows which are now called ghettos. Same shit different day.

Chris
05-12-2013, 10:26 AM
This is nonesense, we had far more juvenile delinquency long before liberals had anything to do with america. There used to be reform schools everywhere and Father FLanagans boys school. Juvenile delinquency was as big a problem in the 50s as it was today. Its all about poverty and back them inner city slums and skid rows which are now called ghettos. Same shit different day.


we had far more juvenile delinquency long before liberals had anything to do with america

The OP has nothing to do with the incidence of juvenile delinquency. It's point is dependence on government turns people into juvenile delinquents, metaphorically speaking.

truthmatters
05-12-2013, 10:29 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freeman


The Freeman is an American libertarian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Libertarianism) journal published by the Foundation for Economic Education (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Foundation_for_Economic_Education) (FEE).[1] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-about-1) It started as a digest sized (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Digest_size) monthly study journal; it currently appears 10 times per year and is a larger-sized magazine. FEE was founded in 1946 by Leonard E. Read (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Leonard_E._Read), who served as its president until his death in 1983. The Foundation was established to present the principles of free markets (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Free_market), limited government (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Limited_government), private property (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Private_property), the rule of law, and libertarian philosophy and to oppose government programs introduced during the 1930s under President Roosevelt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt)'s New Deal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/New_Deal).

Chris
05-12-2013, 10:31 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freeman


The Freeman is an American libertarian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Libertarianism) journal published by the Foundation for Economic Education (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Foundation_for_Economic_Education) (FEE).[1] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-about-1) It started as a digest sized (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Digest_size) monthly study journal; it currently appears 10 times per year and is a larger-sized magazine. FEE was founded in 1946 by Leonard E. Read (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Leonard_E._Read), who served as its president until his death in 1983. The Foundation was established to present the principles of free markets (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Free_market), limited government (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Limited_government), private property (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Private_property), the rule of law, and libertarian philosophy and to oppose government programs introduced during the 1930s under President Roosevelt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt)'s New Deal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/New_Deal).

Nice extended ad hom. Too bad logical fallacies are meaningless.

Did you have anything to say about the opinion expressed in the OP?

truthmatters
05-12-2013, 10:33 AM
they are libertarian.

that is a historically failed set of ideas

Chris
05-12-2013, 10:34 AM
they are libertarian.

that is a historically failed set of ideas

More ad hom. Ignored other than to point out your fallacious thinking.

simpsonofpg
05-12-2013, 11:17 AM
This is nonesense, we had far more juvenile delinquency long before liberals had anything to do with america. There used to be reform schools everywhere and Father FLanagans boys school. Juvenile delinquency was as big a problem in the 50s as it was today. Its all about poverty and back them inner city slums and skid rows which are now called ghettos. Same shit different day.

I don't think it iis as much about poverty today and I am a product of the 50's. It is about entitlement. Kids want it and they take it, paying is optional. A 40 years old liveas at home with mon and dad, pay no rent but drives the latest and greatest. Just one example of delinquency above the poverty level.

Chris
05-12-2013, 11:20 AM
It is about entitlement.

That is part of the dependence on government that leads adults to behave like juvenile delinquents.

truthmatters
05-12-2013, 12:26 PM
only in your head

KC
05-12-2013, 12:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Freeman


The Freeman is an American libertarian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Libertarianism) journal published by the Foundation for Economic Education (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Foundation_for_Economic_Education) (FEE).[1] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-about-1) It started as a digest sized (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Digest_size) monthly study journal; it currently appears 10 times per year and is a larger-sized magazine. FEE was founded in 1946 by Leonard E. Read (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Leonard_E._Read), who served as its president until his death in 1983. The Foundation was established to present the principles of free markets (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Free_market), limited government (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Limited_government), private property (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Private_property), the rule of law, and libertarian philosophy and to oppose government programs introduced during the 1930s under President Roosevelt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Franklin_Delano_Roosevelt)'s New Deal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/New_Deal).

A Genetic Fallacy is a line of "reasoning" in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself.

From: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/genetic-fallacy.html

Chris
05-12-2013, 12:32 PM
A Genetic Fallacy is a line of "reasoning" in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself.

From: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/genetic-fallacy.html

matters, because she so often engages in it, should understand "An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.[6]" @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

truthmatters
05-12-2013, 12:33 PM
It is a biased take and NOT a trustable source of the facts.

KC
05-12-2013, 12:38 PM
It is a biased take and NOT a trustable source of the facts.

Is it the case that every libertarian argument against every thing is always wrong? You have to demonstrate that. Your reasoning can't just be

1. Libertarians sources are always wrong

2. This is a libertarian source

∴ Therefore it is wrong.

You still haven't shown why premise one is the case. More than likely that's because it isn't, you just disagree and therefore assume you are correct.

Chris
05-12-2013, 12:45 PM
Exactly, matters. You need to find the flaw in the OP's argument, if there is one. Good luck. Just think, that might actually lead to, omg, discussion!!

Dr. Who
05-12-2013, 04:37 PM
This is a little dated but I just came across it and it and it does a lot to explain the problem with liberal democracy: It turns us into juvenile delinquents.




@ Juvenile Delinquency (http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/juvenile-delinquency#axzz2SK6Xbtpo)

Democracy often does not work as it should. To work properly would require an invested electorate and elected candidates that participate in good faith. Neither prevails today. You have some percentage of the electorate who educate themselves as to all of the issues, not just the hot button topic for election purposes only, and you also have very few elected representatives who are capable of non-partisan voting. Post election many people are so consumed with partisan politics that they cannot see the forest for the trees. In the circumstances it is no small wonder that government doesn't work as it should. As to childlike behavior, I don't believe that it is altogether derived from government, but rather from a North American idea that we are entitled to the very best, whether we are willing to work for it or not. It really starts in the home. Children given everything their heart desires, whether or not the parents must go into debt to provide these things. It's been happening now for several decades. The children grow into adults with the same attitude. Hence the heavy personal debt loads. How else should people who believe that life should be handed to them on a silver platter behave?

Chris
05-12-2013, 04:41 PM
Democracy often does not work as it should. To work properly would require an invested electorate and elected candidates that participate in good faith. Neither prevails today. You have some percentage of the electorate who educate themselves as to all of the issues, not just the hot button topic for election purposes only, and you also have very few elected representatives who are capable of non-partisan voting. Post election many people are so consumed with partisan politics that they cannot see the forest for the trees. In the circumstances it is no small wonder that government doesn't work as it should. As to childlike behavior, I don't believe that it is altogether derived from government, but rather from a North American idea that we are entitled to the very best, whether we are willing to work for it or not. It really starts in the home. Children given everything their heart desires, whether or not the parents must go into debt to provide these things. It's been happening now for several decades. The children grow into adults with the same attitude. Hence the heavy personal debt loads. How else should people who believe that life should be handed to them on a silver platter behave?


I don't believe that it is altogether derived from government, but rather from a North American idea that we are entitled to the very best, whether we are willing to work for it or not.

Agree, the source is not government itself but our growing dependence on it.

simpsonofpg
05-12-2013, 08:18 PM
It is a biased take and NOT a trustable source of the facts.

I have to admit that if anyone know bias you do. Good work.