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Peter1469
06-04-2013, 04:31 PM
The service chiefs testified on the Hill today (http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/303355-gillibrand-some-commanders-cant-distinguish-between-slap-on-the-ass-and-a-rape) about the growing problem of sexual harassment / assault in the military. The Judge Advocate Generals are supposed to have testified as well, although I have not seen any reporting on what they said yet.

The big issue is that the Senate is planning a bill that would take sex crimes outside of the traditional military justice channels- where commanders make the big decisions, and essentially empower Judge Advocates much in the way DAs are in the civilian criminal justice system- but only for sex crimes.

Having prosecuted in the military, and in federal magistrate court, I don't think this is the answer. I don't think that it could work in the military.

Dr. Who
06-04-2013, 08:43 PM
The service chiefs testified on the Hill today (http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/303355-gillibrand-some-commanders-cant-distinguish-between-slap-on-the-ass-and-a-rape) about the growing problem of sexual harassment / assault in the military. The Judge Advocate Generals are supposed to have testified as well, although I have not seen any reporting on what they said yet.

The big issue is that the Senate is planning a bill that would take sex crimes outside of the traditional military justice channels- where commanders make the big decisions, and essentially empower Judge Advocates much in the way DAs are in the civilian criminal justice system- but only for sex crimes.

Having prosecuted in the military, and in federal magistrate court, I don't think this is the answer. I don't think that it could work in the military.
Wouldn't this allow victims to bypass unsympathetic commanders?

Peter1469
06-04-2013, 08:49 PM
Wouldn't this allow victims to bypass unsympathetic commanders?

That is the theory. But it would turn military justice on its head.

If commanders were locked out of the justice system for sex crimes, they will be more likely to wash their hands of them than they are today. Without the commander involved, if a unit was in the field, how would you get witnesses to testify? I understand that people with no military experience will have a hard time understanding how all this works.

jillian
06-04-2013, 08:55 PM
That is the theory. But it would turn military justice on its head.

If commanders were locked out of the justice system for sex crimes, they will be more likely to wash their hands of them than they are today. Without the commander involved, if a unit was in the field, how would you get witnesses to testify? I understand that people with no military experience will have a hard time understanding how all this works.

why should a military commander get to tell the trier of fact to attach greater weight to the man's testimony?

why should they be allowed to circumvent the good work done by military investigators and prosecutors?

and how do you tell women to serve their country and allow them to be sexually assaulted and do nothing about it?

Dr. Who
06-04-2013, 08:58 PM
That is the theory. But it would turn military justice on its head.

If commanders were locked out of the justice system for sex crimes, they will be more likely to wash their hands of them than they are today. Without the commander involved, if a unit was in the field, how would you get witnesses to testify? I understand that people with no military experience will have a hard time understanding how all this works.
Would some sort of compromise work, like victims inform the Judge Advocates and the Commander simultaneously - then the Commander couldn't simply dismiss complaints out of hand.

Peter1469
06-04-2013, 09:00 PM
why should a military commander get to tell the trier of fact to attach greater weight to the man's testimony?

why should they be allowed to circumvent the good work done by military investigators and prosecutors?

and how do you tell women to serve their country and allow them to be sexually assaulted and do nothing about it?

That is not how the system works.....

jillian
06-04-2013, 09:01 PM
That is not how the system works.....

for now.

it's not going to be allowed to continue the way it is.

Peter1469
06-04-2013, 09:02 PM
for now.

it's not going to be allowed to continue the way it is.

I doubt that very much. I think you misunderstood my last post.

jillian
06-04-2013, 09:03 PM
I doubt that very much. I think you misunderstood my last post.

oh.... were you saying i was incorrect about what the commanders were doing. it seemed to me that's what john mccain indicated when he spoke on the subject.

Peter1469
06-04-2013, 09:07 PM
oh.... were you saying i was incorrect about what the commanders were doing. it seemed to me that's what john mccain indicated when he spoke on the subject.


why should a military commander get to tell the trier of fact to attach greater weight to the man's testimony?

why should they be allowed to circumvent the good work done by military investigators and prosecutors?

That isn't the role of the commander in the military justice process.

jillian
06-04-2013, 09:10 PM
That isn't the role of the commander in the military justice process.

and yet, according to what i've heard, it's happened.... i'm not sure of the context and i never worked as a JAG, but it seemed that was how a particular circumstance was relayed.

Peter1469
06-04-2013, 09:16 PM
and yet, according to what i've heard, it's happened.... i'm not sure of the context and i never worked as a JAG, but it seemed that was how a particular circumstance was relayed.


why should a military commander get to tell the trier of fact to attach greater weight to the man's testimony?



If such a thing occurs, and if the defense attorney doesn't file a motion to dismiss all charges because of undue command influence, that defense attorney should be disbarred. And any military judge that listened to a commander in that manner should also be disbarred.



why should they be allowed to circumvent the good work done by military investigators and prosecutors?

It is extremely rare for this to occur. The only time that I have seen it personally was where there were multiple defendants and one got a much harsher sentence than another. There is an Air Force case where a General Officer reversed a conviction for some sort of sexual crime. I can't explain that one.

Common
06-04-2013, 10:25 PM
This is not going to be a popular statement, but Im not a bashful guy when it comes to saying what I really feel and not what others want to hear.

I was in the military and I was against women in the military then and I still am. Im also against flagrant gays being in the military.
The military has a very serious role DEFENSE, they shouldnt have to spend their time worrying about gay and female issues.
Heres the problem as I see it. You cannot put men in women in such close proximity at the peak of their sexual drive along with the lonliness and stress and JEALOUSY that goes along with military duties and comingled sexs Tell ya what I have a very hard time believing. That all these assault are strictly the fault of the men. I take great issue with that.
I also understand what JEALOUSY can bring and how fickled women cause it jealousy to thrive. Again put men and women in close proximity with the combination of other factors and its a stew of trouble brewing.
Women LOATHE to hear it can possibly be their fault for any kind of sexual encounters with males gone awry, but we ALL know that is not true, especially the women.
Know what politicians caused all this grief now they have to live with it.

oceanloverOH
06-05-2013, 12:45 AM
This is not going to be a popular statement, but Im not a bashful guy when it comes to saying what I really feel and not what others want to hear.

I was in the military and I was against women in the military then and I still am. Im also against flagrant gays being in the military.
The military has a very serious role DEFENSE, they shouldnt have to spend their time worrying about gay and female issues.
Heres the problem as I see it. You cannot put men in women in such close proximity at the peak of their sexual drive along with the lonliness and stress and JEALOUSY that goes along with military duties and comingled sexs Tell ya what I have a very hard time believing. That all these assault are strictly the fault of the men. I take great issue with that.
I also understand what JEALOUSY can bring and how fickled women cause it jealousy to thrive. Again put men and women in close proximity with the combination of other factors and its a stew of trouble brewing.
Women LOATHE to hear it can possibly be their fault for any kind of sexual encounters with males gone awry, but we ALL know that is not true, especially the women.
Know what politicians caused all this grief now they have to live with it.
Common, having walked the walk for 20 years myself, I disagree with your contention that women should not be in the military. It's a very rewarding career, serving your country, male or female. Now, that having been said, you and I share the same opinions on a lot of these topics. (1) Women have a definite place in the military....but IMO, it's NOT in combat situations. The younger women in this forum will vehemently disagree with my opinion on this subject; we've hashed it before.....but none of them have actually served in the military either, it's all conjecture on their part. I personally think women function best in support positions, as it was years ago. Women should be in office staff positions, teaching, medical, supply, finance....organizational and administrative responsibilities. Somebody has to do that stuff. That frees the men up to accomplish the mission in combat zones, and keeps young, hormonal males AND females from getting a little too chummy out in the field where there is much less supervision. Sorry, ladies, that's just my opinion, founded on experience. (2) Flagrant gays do NOT belong in the military. Nuff said. (3) And yes, indeed, many women are quite capable of initiating, participating in, or causing inappropriate sexual situations. This problem is certainly not confined to the males.

Common
06-05-2013, 12:59 AM
There were women in the military in all branchs when I was in. Waves Wacs etc. I dont have a problem with women in the military I do have a problem with women being in close proximity 24/7 with 17 to 24 yr old males who quite bluntly go to be and wake up with something I wish I still had on that much of a regular basis they Go to bed and wake up like that WITHOUT any women around.
Look you take an 18 yr old kid put him around an attractive 22 yr old gal and they are going to fall in love in a flash, now let him see her giving another GI some attention maybe a GI he doesnt like and there ya go, thats one triage of trouble created in a flash innocently or not. I could go on and on why its not a good idea.
Ocean the young women on this forum are WOMEN, what a deduction on my part huh :) and everyone of them knows how easy it is to put a brass ring in some guys nose and just lead him around anywhere you want him to go.
The military right now today has tour after tour after tour to a godforsaken sandlot. Thats stress enough alone.
The military has a mission and that is our defense and to do the bidding as the President and congress lay out. Theyre lives DEPEND on training, proper equiptment and COHESION. Lives here Ocean were talking about LIVES. The military does not need to spend its time with this gay got insulted this women got her behind patted.

Common
06-05-2013, 01:04 AM
Theres another point I would like to make here. Not too long ago Volunteers were way down in certain branchs of the military and there was talk about maybe having to bring back the draft. That is not an unreasonable thought. If the military ever experiences a falloff of volunteers to the degree they have to draft. You think youre going to draft all mens daughters without them loading their guns. Or what are we going to do then have more ground breaking laws written like. Women can volunteer at will but they cant be drafted ? How about gays the ones that dont want to be in the military. Its bad enough you got straight males that never wanted to be drafted. Just a thought that could very well become a reality.

Peter1469
06-05-2013, 05:06 AM
Here is another article about the hearings: (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/04/18729878-john-mccain-women-should-avoid-military-service-until-sexual-misconduct-crisis-solved?lite)

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the armed services committee, instructed Dempsey to have the Pentagon install a system that surveys and calculates sexual misconduct by both the frequency of rapes and of sexual harassments.
Dempsey agreed.

"Here's how we got here," Dempsey said. "Ten, 12, 15 years ago, there was a conversation about whether we should separate these categories. Because in separating them, (some felt) you could encourage some to ignore the unwanted sexual touching or the sexual harassment and focus in only on the sexual assault.

"It was our view 15 years ago, this problem was a continuum, not individual acts. I’m suggesting to you we didn’t get to this point by being stupid," Dempsey added. "We actually got to this point because we were trying to do the right thing. Looking back on it, it’s probably time to adjust it."

jillian
06-05-2013, 05:10 AM
There were women in the military in all branchs when I was in. Waves Wacs etc. I dont have a problem with women in the military I do have a problem with women being in close proximity 24/7 with 17 to 24 yr old males who quite bluntly go to be and wake up with something I wish I still had on that much of a regular basis they Go to bed and wake up like that WITHOUT any women around.
Look you take an 18 yr old kid put him around an attractive 22 yr old gal and they are going to fall in love in a flash, now let him see her giving another GI some attention maybe a GI he doesnt like and there ya go, thats one triage of trouble created in a flash innocently or not. I could go on and on why its not a good idea.
Ocean the young women on this forum are WOMEN, what a deduction on my part huh :) and everyone of them knows how easy it is to put a brass ring in some guys nose and just lead him around anywhere you want him to go.
The military right now today has tour after tour after tour to a godforsaken sandlot. Thats stress enough alone.
The military has a mission and that is our defense and to do the bidding as the President and congress lay out. Theyre lives DEPEND on training, proper equiptment and COHESION. Lives here Ocean were talking about LIVES. The military does not need to spend its time with this gay got insulted this women got her behind patted.

i've never heard of women and men being placed in the same bunks.

and absolving men of responsibility to control themselves based on hormones? that's wrong on so many levels. rape is an act of violence. and if these men can't control themselves and keep themselves from attacking women, they shouldn't be in the military because they can't be trusted around civilian populations either.

Common
06-05-2013, 06:00 AM
i've never heard of women and men being placed in the same bunks.

and absolving men of responsibility to control themselves based on hormones? that's wrong on so many levels. rape is an act of violence. and if these men can't control themselves and keep themselves from attacking women, they shouldn't be in the military because they can't be trusted around civilian populations either.

First of all Jill close proximity isnt the same as being in the same bunk and Im sure theres lots of women that climbed in mens bunks and sent out an invitation vice versa.
What about womens responsiblity ? when it comes to sex women dont have any responsiblity? there shouldnt be a set of morals for their behavior? Your last statement is nonesense and its apparent you really dont have an argument against my points.
Jillian since time past when humanity was in its infancy monkeys in a cave knew that females and males were different. Time to face the music, you and I are not the same. There are inherent traits being a male and a female and we have to recognize that in "ALL" scenarios they do not mix well. This crap that men and women are completely equal is garbage. When I get impregnated and carry a baby 9months to full term and deliver it then Ill say im equal to a woman.

Adelaide
06-05-2013, 12:10 PM
I don't buy the close quarters or hormone excuses - I think it's crap. Men who rape are opportunistic and the military happens to present with different challenges than the "real world" in that men predisposed to committing sex crimes have an environment that enables them. Majority of males are able to exercise self-control regardless of environment.

As for blaming the victim? I'm sure there are a very small percentage of cases where the female is fabricating what happened partially or entirely (false accusations happen, albeit rarely) but for the vast majority there is absolutely no reason or excuse for what happened to them that puts any of the blame onto them. It doesn't matter what they were wearing. It doesn't matter if they had consented to sex previously. It doesn't matter if they had been drinking. There is absolutely no excuse.

Even if the the close quarters/hormones thing were valid, I don't know that I'd trust men who can't exercise self-control to represent a country in combat.

Peter1469
06-05-2013, 03:03 PM
I don't buy the close quarters or hormone excuses - I think it's crap. Men who rape are opportunistic and the military happens to present with different challenges than the "real world" in that men predisposed to committing sex crimes have an environment that enables them. Majority of males are able to exercise self-control regardless of environment.

As for blaming the victim? I'm sure there are a very small percentage of cases where the female is fabricating what happened partially or entirely (false accusations happen, albeit rarely) but for the vast majority there is absolutely no reason or excuse for what happened to them that puts any of the blame onto them. It doesn't matter what they were wearing. It doesn't matter if they had consented to sex previously. It doesn't matter if they had been drinking. There is absolutely no excuse.

Even if the the close quarters/hormones thing were valid, I don't know that I'd trust men who can't exercise self-control to represent a country in combat.

I would say that a lot of these soldiers are young- just out of high school. And a lot of these incidences are alcohol related.

Then you do have many cases of senior soldiers preying on the new younger soldiers.

jillian
06-05-2013, 03:07 PM
First of all Jill close proximity isnt the same as being in the same bunk and Im sure theres lots of women that climbed in mens bunks and sent out an invitation vice versa.
What about womens responsiblity ? when it comes to sex women dont have any responsiblity? there shouldnt be a set of morals for their behavior? Your last statement is nonesense and its apparent you really dont have an argument against my points.
Jillian since time past when humanity was in its infancy monkeys in a cave knew that females and males were different. Time to face the music, you and I are not the same. There are inherent traits being a male and a female and we have to recognize that in "ALL" scenarios they do not mix well. This crap that men and women are completely equal is garbage. When I get impregnated and carry a baby 9months to full term and deliver it then Ill say im equal to a woman.
Common, you referred to the manner in which some men wake up. that would only be relevant to someone sharing a bunk.

i agree with you on many things. on this one, i disagree. the military is about discipline. and if a soldier can't help himself, he should be in jail. a woman can climb into his bunk and change her mind. he doesn't get the right to rape her if she changes her mind or decides it isn't going so well... just like in civilian life.

rape is about power. rape is an act of violence. it has zero to do with sexuality.

Common
06-05-2013, 03:52 PM
@Common (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=659), you referred to the manner in which some men wake up. that would only be relevant to someone sharing a bunk.

i agree with you on many things. on this one, i disagree. the military is about discipline. and if a soldier can't help himself, he should be in jail. a woman can climb into his bunk and change her mind. he doesn't get the right to rape her if she changes her mind or decides it isn't going so well... just like in civilian life.

rape is about power. rape is an act of violence. it has zero to do with sexuality.

No that was a reference on how horny young teen and early 20 men are. Listen most of the sexual assaults are not rape. Discipline only goes so far, your in a combat zone away from everyone and put young men and women together and relationships blossom and jealousy and hatred and maybe violence.
I stand by a combat zone is no place for women. Certainly NOT ANY OF MY DAUGHTERS and remember jill its not unrealistic that the day comes they need to start the draft so the rich can make inroads to make more money. Then watch all the women change their tunes