Is Snowden credible at all?

[Ravi]

He said:


"Oh absolutely. Anyone in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had could suck out secrets, pass them on the open market to Russia; they always have an open door as we do. I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are and so forth."

http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355/edward-snowden-interview-transcript-full-text-read-the-guardian-s-entire-interview-with-the-man-who-leaked-prism

This sounds extremely far fetched. How would a techie, who apparently had only been working for three weeks at that, have access to "undercover assets" all over the world?

[Chris]

yatotss....

[Common]

He said:



http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355/edward-snowden-interview-transcript-full-text-read-the-guardian-s-entire-interview-with-the-man-who-leaked-prism

This sounds extremely far fetched. How would a techie, who apparently had only been working for three weeks at that, have access to "undercover assets" all over the world?

He was working for that company for 3 weeks but for the NSA he was working for 4 yrs, this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient. Of course he will remain the hero of the flamers all mental patients are

:kiss:

[Chris]

this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient.

And the basis for this attack on the messenger?

[Common]

And the basis for this attack on the messenger?


Hah you should check out your buddy first but onesidedness is an admission of yours chris lol
If you want the basis of this go read the thread I started SNOWDENS WORDS read the article. You will have your answer.

[Ravi]

He was working for that company for 3 weeks but for the NSA he was working for 4 yrs, this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient. Of course he will remain the hero of the flamers all mental patients are

:kiss:
I'm not sure what his background employment was....but certainly as a contractor or even an employee of the NSA he wouldn't have had that level of access.

That would be a heck of a lot more troubling than the fact the NSA could, if they so choose, determine that someone calls my mother's number from my cell phone three or four times a week.

[Chris]

Hah you should check out your buddy first but onesidedness is an admission of yours chris lol
If you want the basis of this go read the thread I started SNOWDENS WORDS read the article. You will have your answer.

I asked you the basis of your attacking the messenger. I'll take it you have none, or can't explain.

[Chris]

I'm not sure what his background employment was....but certainly as a contractor or even an employee of the NSA he wouldn't have had that level of access.

That would be a heck of a lot more troubling than the fact the NSA could, if they so choose, determine that someone calls my mother's number from my cell phone three or four times a week.


I'm not sure what his background employment was

Thus you argue from unknowns.


but certainly as a contractor or even an employee of the NSA he wouldn't have had that level of access

What's the basis of your certainty?

[Ravi]

Thus you argue from unknowns.



What's the basis of your certainty?
Troll, saying I don't know something means I don't know something and it is not an argument from unknown. Go build another strawman.

[Common]

I'm not sure what his background employment was....but certainly as a contractor or even an employee of the NSA he wouldn't have had that level of access.

That would be a heck of a lot more troubling than the fact the NSA could, if they so choose, determine that someone calls my mother's number from my cell phone three or four times a week.

You cant say he didnt have that level of access we dont know, he had a secret or top secret clearance, Obviously he had access to some serious information or some republicans as well as dems wouldnt be calling for his prosectution.

[Chris]

Troll, saying I don't know something means I don't know something and it is not an argument from unknown. Go build another strawman.

Nice name calling, marie, thank you for admitting you attacked the messenger based on unknowns.


I'm curious, why are you attacking the messenger instead of question the right of the NSA to spy on us?

[Common]

Troll, saying I don't know something means I don't know something and it is not an argument from unknown. Go build another strawman.

They do that when they have nothing else, he tries to be annoying and he even fails at that lol

[Ravi]

You cant say he didnt have that level of access we dont know, he had a secret or top secret clearance, Obviously he had access to some serious information or some republicans as well as dems wouldnt be calling for his prosectution.

No, we don't know. But it would be very troubling to know that some techie had that kind of power. Normally the way the spy business is portrayed is that people only know certain things. His claim to that level of knowledge would put him right up there with the head of the NSA.

[Ravi]

Oh, and some of the pols are calling for his prosecution.

[Chris]

You cant say he didnt have that level of access we dont know, he had a secret or top secret clearance, Obviously he had access to some serious information or some republicans as well as dems wouldnt be calling for his prosectution.

Correct, all you need is security clearance. I had a fairly high clearance years ago doing contract work for the military in IT and had access to most all files on the systems I worked on. He was a lot higher level than I ever was.

[Chris]

Oh, and some of the pols are calling for his prosecution.

And some of the pols are calling for prosecution of NSA.

We ought to welcome both to try and bring the truth out.

[Common]

No, we don't know. But it would be very troubling to know that some techie had that kind of power. Normally the way the spy business is portrayed is that people only know certain things. His claim to that level of knowledge would put him right up there with the head of the NSA.

You know that is a very good point Marie did this guy go mining for security information that was above his authority ? if he did then for sure hes a traitor.

[Common]

And some of the pols are calling for prosecution of NSA.

We ought to welcome both to try and bring the truth out.


lol ok try and and try the NSA good luck with that.

[Chris]

You know that is a very good point Marie did this guy go mining for security information that was above his authority ? if he did then for sure hes a traitor.

And just the same we could speculate the NSA was spying on Americans unjustifiably are should be tried as traitors. Speculation is so much fun!

[Chris]

lol ok try and and try the NSA good luck with that.

Are you saying government is too big to fail?

[Common]

And just the same we could speculate the NSA was spying on Americans unjustifiably are should be tried as traitors. Speculation is so much fun!

Your talking to the wrong person Ive said over and over we should not rush to judgement and wait until the facts are out and cleared.

[junie]

I asked you the basis of your attacking the messenger. I'll take it you have none, or can't explain.


OR he doesn't want to be bothered with your typical inquiry which sidetracks every thread you touch and would rather you find your answer in what he's already posted elsewhere...


"this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient." < questioning the mental health of a traitor and not an "attack"


"If you want the basis of this go read the thread I started SNOWDENS WORDS read the article. You will have your answer."

[junie]

how ironic that this guy sought refuge within a country with one of the most oppressive governments on the planet...





U.S. Leaker Raises China Extradition Question



Snowden was hiding in a Hong Kong hotel after leaving the U.S. on May 20, according to the U.K.’s Guardian newspaper.


An employee of defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton Holding Corp (BAH)., Snowden worked at the National Security Agency for the past four years for various contractors, according to reports by the Guardian and the Washington Post, which said he provided them with documents about a program known as “PRISM,” which the government has now acknowledged.


...



Defending Program

Carney echoed remarks by President Barack Obama last week in defending the government’s collection of communications data, saying a balance between privacy protections and necessary intelligence gathering “has been appropriately struck.”


He referred questions about assessments of harm to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. “Revelations like this can be and have been damaging,” Carney said of national security leaks in general. “This information is classified for a reason.”

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-06-09/nsa-whistleblower-is-29-year-old-american-guardian-reports

[Chris]

Your talking to the wrong person Ive said over and over we should not rush to judgement and wait until the facts are out and cleared.

I'm talking to the person who said "You know that is a very good point Marie did this guy go mining for security information that was above his authority ? if he did then for sure hes a traitor."

[Common]

Are you saying government is too big to fail?

Its bigger than AIG isnt it ? Just how to propose to go about spying on the premier spying agency in the world that has decades of experience and all the most up to date Technology. Whatever this kid saw and gave up just touches the rim of the barrel. Anyone naive enough to think this kid knew the whole shebang is nuts.

[Chris]

OR he doesn't want to be bothered with this your typical inquiry which sidetracks every thread you touch and would rather you find your answer in what he's already posted elsewhere...


"this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient." < questioning the mental health of a traitor and not an "attack"


"If you want the basis of this go read the thread I started SNOWDENS WORDS read the article. You will have your answer."

Sidetracks? Someone says something on a topic and another asks a question and normally it's answered is generally how discussions go, junie. Sidetracking is your disparate comment talking about talking rather than trying to address the point.


"If you want the basis of this go read the thread I started SNOWDENS WORDS read the article. You will have your answer."

It's not answered there either. That merely repeats the opinion. It doesn't substantiate it, doesn't explain it. Doing so would be engaging is discussion rather than merely repeating opinions.


But thanks for the the sidetrack, junie, can we get back to the thread attacking the messenger and questions why?

[Mister D]

how ironic that this guy sought refuge within a country with one of the most oppressive governments on the planet...

He's in Hong Kong not Somalia. :smiley:

[Chris]

Its bigger than AIG isnt it ? Just how to propose to go about spying on the premier spying agency in the world that has decades of experience and all the most up to date Technology. Whatever this kid saw and gave up just touches the rim of the barrel. Anyone naive enough to think this kid knew the whole shebang is nuts.


Its bigger than AIG isnt it ?

Probably not but no reason to bail it out.


Just how to propose to go about spying on the premier spying agency in the world that has decades of experience and all the most up to date Technology.

I believe there are supposed to be Congressional oversight committees...that perhaps are not doing their jobs. Perhaps we need a non-governmental institution of oversight.


Whatever this kid saw and gave up just touches the rim of the barrel.

Unknown.


Anyone naive enough to think this kid knew the whole shebang is nuts.

Poisoning the well.

[junie]

Troll, saying I don't know something means I don't know something and it is not an argument from unknown. Go build another strawman.



lol some people would much rather argue about the semantics of arguing because they know they have no real argument...

[jillian]

He was working for that company for 3 weeks but for the NSA he was working for 4 yrs, this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient. Of course he will remain the hero of the flamers all mental patients are

:kiss:

you got that right.

[Common]

I asked you the basis of your attacking the messenger. I'll take it you have none, or can't explain.

I answered you I will not write repetitive messages to entertain you.

[Chris]

lol some people would much rather argue about the semantics of arguing because they know they have no real argument...

You mean like you did in this post: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/13645-Is-Snowden-credible-at-all?p=304733&viewfull=1#post304733?

I didn't have an argument when I asked the basis for attacking the messenger, I was curious what reasoning like behind it.

As I'm getting no answers I have to assume there is no reasoning, it's just an emotional reaction. That's fine, just wondering.

[Common]

lol some people would much rather argue about the semantics of arguing because they know they have no real argument...

That junie is the number 1 tactic of the flamers on this forum but its fun to watch them flounder isnt it ?

[Chris]

I answered you I will not write repetitive messages to entertain you.

Thread and post #.

I appreciate your not merely repeating your opinion.

[JimH52]

This kid has made some terrible decisions. Do his revelations raise some questions? Perhaps they do, but this is not how you go about raising those questions. He must be scared senseless. I know that I would be. And quite frankly, he has every reason to be afraid.

[Common]

Thread and post #.

I appreciate your not merely repeating your opinion.

You are welcome Mr Chris :) see we can get along

[Chris]

This kid has made some terrible decisions. Do his revelations raise some questions? Perhaps they do, but this is not how you go about raising those questions. He must be scared senseless. I know that I would be. And quite frankly, he has every reason to be afraid.

How do we know he didn't make the right decisions given how little we do know? Why jump to conclusions that he made terrible decisions?

[Chris]

You are welcome Mr Chris :) see we can get along

You forgot thread and post number where you answered my question.

[junie]

Sidetracks? Someone says something on a topic and another asks a question and normally it's answered is generally how discussions go, junie. Sidetracking is your disparate comment talking about talking rather than trying to address the point.



It's not answered there either. That merely repeats the opinion. It doesn't substantiate it, doesn't explain it. Doing so would be engaging is discussion rather than merely repeating opinions.


But thanks for the the sidetrack, junie, can we get back to the thread attacking the messenger and questions why?



the guys is a traitor so questioning his mindset and motive is not "attacking the messenger", mister semantic simpleton...

the info in his "message" was CLASSIFIED and his breach of oath poses a serious threat to our security.


common essentially said he COULD be nuts, so what is the real point of your side-track inquiry exactly..? "what is the basis for this attack" ?



"this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient."

WHY do you bother to side-track this thread by arguing about IF he might be nuts...? he doesn't need a "basis" for reasonable speculation...

[Common]

the guys is a traitor so questioning his mindset and motives is not "attacking the messenger", mister semantic simpleton...

the info in his "message" was CLASSIFIED and his breach of oath poses a serious threat to our security.


common essentially said he COULD be nuts, so what is the real point of your side-track inquiry exactly..? "what is the basis for this attack" ?



"this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient."

WHY do you bother to side-track this thread by arguing about IF he might be nuts...? he doesn't need a "basis" for reasonable speculation...

His purpose is always the same junie to detract from what you say with distractions with no substance. Chris does it all the time when he has no answers

[Chris]

the guys is a traitor so questioning his mindset and motive is not "attacking the messenger", mister semantic simpleton...

the info in his "message" was CLASSIFIED and his breach of oath poses a serious threat to our security.


common essentially said he COULD be nuts, so what is the real point of your side-track inquiry exactly..? "what is the basis for this attack" ?



"this kid may very well turn out to be a total fraud and a mental patient."

WHY do you bother to side-track this thread by arguing about IF he might be nuts...? he doesn't need a "basis" for reasonable speculation...


the guys is a traitor

Can you link me to reports of his trial and conviction?


"attacking the messenger",

Calling him a traitor is attacking the messenger.


mister semantic simpleton

And now you're attacking me.


common essentially said he COULD be nuts,

And on topic I asked what's the basis of that...and for this you have attacked me personally.

[Chris]

His purpose is always the same junie to detract from what you say with distractions with no substance. Chris does it all the time when he has no answers

YAPA (yet another personal attack)

If you make a claim, common, and I ask you why you say that, what the basis of it is, I am staying on topic, I am trying to discuss it with you. How can asking you a question detract from discussion? All these personal attacks is what detracts from any possible discussion.

[junie]

trai·tor

noun \ˈtrā-tər\


Definition of TRAITOR

1
: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty




^ not yet his legal classification, but terminology which accurately describes his actions...

[JimH52]

How do we know he didn't make the right decisions given how little we do know? Why jump to conclusions that he made terrible decisions?

So you think he made the right decision and took the correct steps in this matter? Is that what you are saying?

[Chris]

trai·tor

noun \ˈtrā-tər\


Definition of TRAITOR

1
: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty




^ not yet his legal classification, but terminology which accurately describes his actions...



We all know the meaning and yes "not yet his legal classification".




terminology which accurately describes his actions

Why do you say that?

[Chris]

So you think he made the right decision and took the correct steps in this matter? Is that what you are saying?

No, I didn't say that so I don't understand why you would ask me why I think something that I don't.

What I did was ask you this "How do we know he didn't make the right decisions given how little we do know? Why jump to conclusions that he made terrible decisions?"

Is there an answer forthcoming or not?

[Peter1469]

I'm not sure what his background employment was....but certainly as a contractor or even an employee of the NSA he wouldn't have had that level of access.

That would be a heck of a lot more troubling than the fact the NSA could, if they so choose, determine that someone calls my mother's number from my cell phone three or four times a week.

The Intel Community does not have a typical relationship with its contractors. Many times they are treated just like feds by managers and these contractor employees float from one contractor to another, often keeping the same job for a while, or to transfer to another location in the IC.

He apparently took this job to move to Hawaii.

[JimH52]

No, I didn't say that so I don't understand why you would ask me why I think something that I don't.

What I did was ask you this "How do we know he didn't make the right decisions given how little we do know? Why jump to conclusions that he made terrible decisions?"

Is there an answer forthcoming or not?

Oh but I have said that I think he made the wrong decision. Legally, he has broken the law. Do you agree Chris? Do you think he has broken the law? So you think it is wrong for someone to conclude a person has made the wrong decision, when that person has broken the law? Is that your position Chris?

[Mainecoons]

Legally, the Boston Tea Party broke the law. When a regime becomes illegitimate like the U.S. Federal government is, patriots have a duty to break its laws.

The only security this guy has compromised is the hidden spying on ordinary Americans. He's gone after Big Brother and he deserves a medal for it.

[Chris]

Oh but I have said that I think he made the wrong decision. Legally, he has broken the law. Do you agree Chris? Do you think he has broken the law? So you think it is wrong for someone to conclude a person has made the wrong decision, when that person has broken the law? Is that your position Chris?

Right, and I was asking why you think he made the wrong decision. OK, he broke the law, not sure he did, he likely violated rules, contract, and perhaps laws. But is that all we as citizens--set aside all the partisan stuff--we as citizens should be concerned with? Is it not possible to violate the law and still do the right thing? To me the law is about what is, what's right is about what ought to be. So if you say you think so because he broke a law then you have answered and now I understand better what exactly you're considering in your judgment, and have no real argument about the law, but still wonder if in informing we the citizens of what's going on, the extent of it, could he have not done the right thing in the bigger picture?

[Chris]

Legally, the Boston Tea Party broke the law. When a regime becomes illegitimate like the U.S. Federal government is, patriots have a duty to break its laws.

The only security this guy has compromised is the hidden spying on ordinary Americans. He's gone after Big Brother and he deserves a medal for it.

I was going to add that to my response. There is doing things right by posited law and then there is doing things right by higher law, "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God" whatever you take that to mean.

[bladimz]

Legally, the Boston Tea Party broke the law. When a regime becomes illegitimate like the U.S. Federal government is, patriots have a duty to break its laws.I'm not arguing your comment one way or the other, it did make me wonder... If we do break the laws of our government, should we as lawbreakers expect to be held accountable via the judicial process?

[Chris]

What about violators of the Fugitive Slave Law? Where's the line between what legal and what's moral?

But yes the law should be prosecuted, which may raise questions about it, and change it.

[Private Pickle]

Oh but I have said that I think he made the wrong decision. Legally, he has broken the law. Do you agree Chris? Do you think he has broken the law? So you think it is wrong for someone to conclude a person has made the wrong decision, when that person has broken the law? Is that your position Chris?
It kinda sounds like, if the Government created new laws against say Free Speech that prohibited you from saying anything bad against the Government then you would support them given it's the law. Point being, sometimes the law needs to be broken in order for Freedom to prevail. There are dozens upon dozens of examples of this.

[Private Pickle]

What about violators of the Fugitive Slave Law? Where's the line between what legal and what's moral?

But yes the law should be prosecuted, which may raise questions about it, and change it.

Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Nelson Mandela (not an American but still)...

[jillian]

Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Nelson Mandela (not an American but still)...

none of the above ran to a foreign country, did they?

[JimH52]

Right, and I was asking why you think he made the wrong decision. OK, he broke the law, not sure he did, he likely violated rules, contract, and perhaps laws. But is that all we as citizens--set aside all the partisan stuff--we as citizens should be concerned with? Is it not possible to violate the law and still do the right thing? To me the law is about what is, what's right is about what ought to be. So if you say you think so because he broke a law then you have answered and now I understand better what exactly you're considering in your judgment, and have no real argument about the law, but still wonder if in informing we the citizens of what's going on, the extent of it, could he have not done the right thing in the bigger picture?

It seems there are two issues. One, were the actions of this kid legal and correct. Two, should Congress revisit the limits of the NSA program. I assume more information will come forward in the days to come to make better decisions on both of these issues. I have heard assertions by some NSA officials that the information he passed on the Guardian was not accurate. Time will tell...

[Private Pickle]

none of the above ran to a foreign country, did they?

So are you looking for identical comparisons here? The premise remains...him going to China doesn't prove the idea that his action on blowing the whistle was wrong... It just proves that he didn't want to be sodomized in the prison shower...

[jillian]

So are you looking for identical comparisons here? The premise remains...him going to China doesn't prove the idea that his action on blowing the whistle was wrong... It just proves that he didn't want to be sodomized in the prison shower...

civil disobedience, standing up for something, requires that you actually stand up and bring your cause to the fore. this guy seems like a sham to me. something's not right.

[Chris]

none of the above ran to a foreign country, did they?

What has that to do with his potential crime? Separate out the issues: NSA spying, leaking it, fleeing.

[jillian]

What has that to do with his potential crime? Separate out the issues: NSA spying, leaking it, fleeing.

what law was violated?

why do you hate your country?

and if you can't see the difference between a nelson mandela and this little coward, then i'd suggest there's no hope for you.

[Chris]

It seems there are two issues. One, were the actions of this kid legal and correct. Two, should Congress revisit the limits of the NSA program. I assume more information will come forward in the days to come to make better decisions on both of these issues. I have heard assertions by some NSA officials that the information he passed on the Guardian was not accurate. Time will tell...

On all of it, I agree, it's too soon to make judgments. They tend to be too emotional, and irrational. Above, you gave reasons, that rises above it.

[Chris]

what law was violated?

why do you hate your country?

and if you can't see the difference between a nelson mandela and this little coward, then i'd suggest there's no hope for you.

Why do you have this incessant need to make up lies about me?

[bladimz]

But yes the law should be prosecuted, which may raise questions about it, and change it.Who would change the law?

[JimH52]

Legally, the Boston Tea Party broke the law. When a regime becomes illegitimate like the U.S. Federal government is, patriots have a duty to break its laws.

The only security this guy has compromised is the hidden spying on ordinary Americans. He's gone after Big Brother and he deserves a medal for it.

Really? Let's see how many metals he receives, other than two shiny bracelets. It is hard to believe this kid did this out of moral conscience. Perhaps he did, but I expect he had some other motives, which may come out in the coming days.

[Common]

On all of it, I agree, it's too soon to make judgments. They tend to be too emotional, and irrational. Above, you gave reasons, that rises above it.

Yes the right absolutely is ridiculously emotional over this, they have him posterior out hanging on MT Rushmore already.
UHOH chris is going to accuse me a strawman and a personal insult again. OH MY lolol

[patrickt]

what law was violated?

why do you hate your country?

and if you can't see the difference between a nelson mandela and this little coward, then i'd suggest there's no hope for you.


Of course there's a difference. Mr. Snowden's supporters don't fill old tires with gasoline, hang them around someone's neck, and light them. Lordy, big difference.

[Common]

Of course there's a difference. Mr. Snowden's supporters don't fill old tires with gasoline, hang them around someone's neck, and light them. Lordy, big difference.

Where Chris with his strawman personal attack crap

[Chris]

Who would change the law?

The courts, if it went high enough with appeals.

The legislature which is so empowered.

[Private Pickle]

civil disobedience, standing up for something, requires that you actually stand up and bring your cause to the fore. this guy seems like a sham to me. something's not right.

You think he is doing it for notoriety?

[JimH52]

You think he is doing it for notoriety?


Hard to say, but CNN reported that he never finished High School and went into the Army. According to them, he was discharged and according to him, it was due to a broken leg suffered in Basic....??? His decision making has left him in very uncomfortable waters. Right now, he is a criminal...NOT a whistle blower.

[Chris]

Hard to say, but CNN reported that he never finished High School and went into the Army. According to them, he was discharged and according to him, it was due to a broken leg suffered in Basic....??? His decision making has left him in very uncomfortable waters. Right now, he is a criminal...NOT a whistle blower.
What, has he been charged, prosecuted and found guilty sine I last checked news an hour ago?

[Mainecoons]

Yeah, like Zimmerman. In the liberal mind.

:grin:

His biggest concern is that his sacrifice is for naught. Looking at the Pew Poll, I would say the Sheeple are quite happy to be spied on.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

[Ravi]

The Intel Community does not have a typical relationship with its contractors. Many times they are treated just like feds by managers and these contractor employees float from one contractor to another, often keeping the same job for a while, or to transfer to another location in the IC.

He apparently took this job to move to Hawaii.

I still don't believe that he has the level of access that he has claimed. That would be crazy. Though perhaps it is crazy to outsource our intelligence.

[Ravi]

hmmm, he claimed he was paid $200K yet his employer claims he was paid $120K.

Fishy

[Mainecoons]

Reference?

[Ransom]

I still don't believe that he has the level of access that he has claimed. That would be crazy. Though perhaps it is crazy to outsource our intelligence.

I'm not sure either, any media story today must be given time to get sorted out, they get so much wrong. But, look to other cases where information was compromised, Bradley Manning for example was of low rank. The IRS has given several low ranking, low level of access employees up for beheading in their scandal. The Department of Justice doesn't know anything. Fast and Furious, reporters being spied on, all of their recent activities being engaged by low level department cronies.....doesn't this work in any private corporation as well. The person that probably has the most information on employees....how much they earn, if they owe the IRS, any wage garnishments, even what charities they give to.....is the payroll clerk. He or she would have ss numbers, addresses, phone numbers, family member names, your HR personnel at work also have much information.

[Ravi]

I'm not sure either, any media story today must be given time to get sorted out, they get so much wrong. But, look to other cases where information was compromised, Bradley Manning for example was of low rank. The IRS has given several low ranking, low level of access employees up for beheading in their scandal. The Department of Justice doesn't know anything. Fast and Furious, reporters being spied on, all of their recent activities being engaged by low level department cronies.....doesn't this work in any private corporation as well. The person that probably has the most information on employees....how much they earn, if they owe the IRS, any wage garnishments, even what charities they give to.....is the payroll clerk. He or she would have ss numbers, addresses, phone numbers, family member names, your HR personnel at work also have much information.
Maybe you should re-read the OP. Snowden himself made the claim.

[junie]

I still don't believe that he has the level of access that he has claimed. That would be crazy. Though perhaps it is crazy to outsource our intelligence.



last night i saw an intelligence expert interviewed on cbs news say as much... i don't have a link but i'll see if i can find something on cbs dot com.

basically he said that snowden misunderstood his authority and level of access... and essentially he took certain info to mean something that it actually didn't.




imo this guy was compelled by his ego and took this opportunity to undermine the united states government in order to feed a divisive agenda...




He said: "I can't allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties.

"My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-pardon-petition-nsa-whistleblower-white-house-website_n_3415350.html?utm_hp_ref=uk



In a stark warning, he said that surveillance was not being properly constrained by policy, and would grow beyond control.


"The months ahead, the years ahead, it's only going to get worse, until eventually there will be a time where policies will change - because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy.

He added: "There will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it'll be turn-key tyranny."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-pardon-petition-nsa-whistleblower-white-house-website_n_3415350.html?utm_hp_ref=uk








Snowden decided to release details of the programs out of shock and anger over the sheer scope of the government's privacy invasions.

"It was his choice to publicly unveil himself," Greenwald told the AP in Hong Kong. "He recognized that, even if he hadn't publicly unveiled himself, it was only a matter of time before the U.S. government discovered that it was he who had been responsible for these disclosures, and he made peace with that. ... He's very steadfast and resolute about the fact that he did the right thing."


Greenwald told the AP he had more documents from Snowden and expected "more significant revelations" about NSA.


A senior intelligence official said Snowden would have had to have signed a non-disclosure agreement to gain access to the top secret data. That suggests he could be prosecuted for violating that agreement. Penalties could range from a few years to life in prison.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57588664/feds-prepping-charges-against-edward-snowden-sources/





Snowden was hoping to escape criminal charges as lawmakers, including Senate intelligence chairwoman Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, accuse him of having committed an "act of treason" that should be prosecuted.


Washington was defending the broad U.S. spy program it says keeps America safe from terrorists, after a global uproar over the programs that track phone and Internet messages around the world...


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57588664/feds-prepping-charges-against-edward-snowden-sources/

[Chris]

I'm not sure either, any media story today must be given time to get sorted out, they get so much wrong. But, look to other cases where information was compromised, Bradley Manning for example was of low rank. The IRS has given several low ranking, low level of access employees up for beheading in their scandal. The Department of Justice doesn't know anything. Fast and Furious, reporters being spied on, all of their recent activities being engaged by low level department cronies.....doesn't this work in any private corporation as well. The person that probably has the most information on employees....how much they earn, if they owe the IRS, any wage garnishments, even what charities they give to.....is the payroll clerk. He or she would have ss numbers, addresses, phone numbers, family member names, your HR personnel at work also have much information.

Agree. I work in IT and while I shouldn't I can easily access any company data. This is not an employee problem but a company problem same as with NSA.

[Ravi]

Thanks, Junie. I find it fascinating that the dweeb acted out emotionally. Hard to believe he's actually 29 years old.

Who the fuck is he to decide what the public should and should not be privy to when it comes to national security?

[junie]

President Barack Obama on Friday staunchly defended the sweeping U.S. government surveillance of Americans' phone and internet activity, calling it a "modest encroachment" on privacy that was necessary to defend the United States from attack.


"Nobody is listening to your telephone calls. That's not what this program is about," Obama told reporters during a visit to California's Silicon Valley.


He emphasized that the secret surveillance programs were supervised by federal judges and authorized by Congress, which had been briefed on the details.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100800491

[junie]

Army records indicate Snowden enlisted in the Army around May 2004 and was discharged that September.


"He attempted to qualify to become a Special Forces soldier but did not complete the requisite training and was administratively discharged from the Army," Col. David H. Patterson Jr., an Army spokesman at the Pentagon, said in a statement late Monday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57588664/feds-prepping-charges-against-edward-snowden-sources/

[junie]

pardon my need for larger font as that teensy font is way too small for my aging eyes... lol






One of the documents was a secret court order regarding information about telephone calls (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/verizon-providing-all-call-records-to-us-under-court-order/2013/06/05/98656606-ce47-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html):

The order appears to require a Verizon subsidiary to provide the NSA with daily information on all telephone calls by its customers within the United States and from foreign locations into the United States. ¶ The order, which was signed by a judge from the secret court that oversees domestic surveillance, was first reported on the Web site of the Guardian newspaper. The Web site reproduced a copy of the order, which two former U.S. officials told The Washington Post appears to be authentic. ¶ A senior Obama administration official said Thursday that the purported order “does not allow the government to listen in on anyone’s telephone calls” but relates only to “metadata, such as a telephone number or the length of a call.” The official said such information “has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States.” Ellen Nakashima (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/verizon-providing-all-call-records-to-us-under-court-order/2013/06/05/98656606-ce47-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html)

See more about that court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court/2013/06/07/4700b382-cfec-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_graphic.html).
Another document concerns a program, known as PRISM, through which the NSA and the FBI have been monitoring Internet communications (http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html):

The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio and video chats, photographs, e-mails, documents, and connection logs that enable analysts to track foreign targets. . .¶ The program, code-named PRISM, has not been made public until now. It may be the first of its kind. The NSA prides itself on stealing secrets and breaking codes, and it is accustomed to corporate partnerships that help it divert data traffic or sidestep barriers. But there has never been a Google or Facebook before, and it is unlikely that there are richer troves of valuable intelligence than the ones in Silicon Valley. Barton Gellman and Laura Poitras (http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html)
See slides from the top-secret presentation explaining PRISM here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/).


Government officials and representatives of technology companies have argued that these modes of surveillance are legal and appropriately supervised (see articles here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-company-officials-internet-surveillance-does-not-indiscriminately-mine-data/2013/06/08/5b3bb234-d07d-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html) and here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/administration-lawmakers-defend-nsa-program-to-collect-phone-records/2013/06/06/2a56d966-ceb9-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html)). Here is an explanation of the NSA’s function as “the government’s eavesdropper-in-chief” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-such-agency-spies-on-the-communications-of-the-world/2013/06/06/5bcd46a6-ceb9-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html):


Charged primarily with electronic spying around the globe, the NSA collects billions of pieces of intelligence from foreign phone calls, e-mail and other communications. But in the past two days, the focus has shifted to its role in compiling massive amounts of the same information on millions of ordinary Americans. . .¶ The agency is so secretive that estimates of the number of employees range from the official figure of about 35,000 to as high as 55,000. In addition to its main campus behind the walls of Fort Meade, the NSA will operate a new surveillance center in the Utah desert. The million-square-foot building will cost about $2 billion when it’s finished, perhaps as early as the fall. The center is designed to capture all forms of communication for the nation’s intelligence agencies, ranging from e-mail and cellphone calls to Internet searches and personal data. Anne Gearan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/no-such-agency-spies-on-the-communications-of-the-world/2013/06/06/5bcd46a6-ceb9-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html)
Read an account of an interview with Snowden, the man who claims responsibility for the disclosures, here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/intelligence-leaders-push-back-on-leakers-media/2013/06/09/fff80160-d122-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html) and a profile of him here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/edward-snowden-says-motive-behind-leaks-was-to-expose-surveillance-state/2013/06/09/aa3f0804-d13b-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html). He fled the United States to Hong Kong, but his current location is not known, and China is likely to extradite him (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-hotel-says-edward-snowden-was-there-but-checked-out-monday/2013/06/10/44baa0fa-d1af-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html) if he remains there and the United States seeks to charge him.

[Ravi]

The Green Beret? Aren't they covert? And if he couldn't make it why was he discharged and not just allowed to become a regular soldier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Private Pickle]

Thanks, Junie. I find it fascinating that the dweeb acted out emotionally. Hard to believe he's actually 29 years old.

Who the fuck is he to decide what the public should and should not be privy to when it comes to national security?

So if torture is carried out secretly and in the interest of national security then anyone who might blow the whistle on it would be a traitor?

[Ravi]

So if torture is carried out secretly and in the interest of national security then anyone who might blow the whistle on it would be a traitor?
Nope, because torture is illegal.

[Private Pickle]

The Green Beret? Aren't they covert? And if he couldn't make it why was he discharged and not just allowed to become a regular soldier.

Curiouser and curiouser.

The Army allows you to sign a contract that specifies these things. Sometimes if you fail out of your chosen course then you will be reassigned per the needs of the Army. Sometimes you have the option to leave the Army.

[Private Pickle]

Nope, because torture is illegal.

Now we're talking! This is the crux of the conversation. In my opinion recording and cataloging my communications as an American citizen is against the 4th Amendment and as such, is illegal.

[Ravi]

Now we're talking! This is the crux of the conversation. In my opinion recording and cataloging my communications as an American citizen is against the 4th Amendment and as such, is illegal.
As far as I can see no one is recording them. If they are, and they don't have a warrant then they should be punished. Nothing that has been released shows any evidence of illegal activity on the part of the government.

[Ravi]

The Army allows you to sign a contract that specifies these things. Sometimes if you fail out of your chosen course then you will be reassigned per the needs of the Army. Sometimes you have the option to leave the Army.
Thanks, I didn't know that.

[Private Pickle]

As far as I can see no one is recording them. If they are, and they don't have a warrant then they should be punished. Nothing that has been released shows any evidence of illegal activity on the part of the government.


Documents leaked by Edward Snowden[6] in June 2013 describe the PRISM program as enabling in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information. It provides for the targeting of any customers of participating corporations who live outside the United States, or American citizens whose communications include web content of people outside the United States. Data which the NSA is able to obtain with the PRISM program includes email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, voice over IP conversations, file transfers, login notifications and social networking details.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

Still think he is a traitor?

[junie]

Thanks, Junie. I find it fascinating that the dweeb acted out emotionally. Hard to believe he's actually 29 years old.

Who the fuck is he to decide what the public should and should not be privy to when it comes to national security?



lol it reminds me of the few stooges on remote political forums who acted sooo offended when the streets of boston got shut down when the bombers were fleeing. paranoid nitwits acted like it was some sort of big government oppression, but the people in boston were naturally compelled to cooperate in defending their streets, and in the end we saw the community actually cheering in the streets and honoring the valiant efforts of the police officers... it took a total of one hundred hours and we nabbed them before they could hurt anybody else!

[Ravi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

Still think he is a traitor?

The documents leaked didn't actually show that though.

[Chris]

The documents leaked didn't actually show that though.

They showed exactly what pickle just cited.

What they did not show is that he's a traitor.

[Private Pickle]

The documents leaked didn't actually show that though.

Read on:


According to the Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, PRISM cannot be used to intentionally target any Americans or anyone in the United States. Clapper said a special court, Congress, and the executive branch oversee the program and extensive procedures ensure the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of data accidentally collected about Americans is kept to a minimum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

What was leaked was the fact that millions of Americans have been intentionally targeted.

[Chris]

Thanks, Junie. I find it fascinating that the dweeb acted out emotionally. Hard to believe he's actually 29 years old.

Who the fuck is he to decide what the public should and should not be privy to when it comes to national security?

Who should decide this?

[Chris]

Read on:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

What was leaked was the fact that millions of Americans have been intentionally targeted.

Violation of amendment 4.

[junie]

The Green Beret? Aren't they covert? And if he couldn't make it why was he discharged and not just allowed to become a regular soldier.

Curiouser and curiouser.


i heard someone say on NPR yesterday that he fell off a training platform and broke his leg...

[Ravi]

Read on:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

What was leaked was the fact that millions of Americans have been intentionally targeted.
No, what has been leaked are some documents out of context that don't mention Americans or warrants or anything of the sort. We have no real idea what those documents pertain to....but we do know that they do not show Americans were spied upon without warrants.

[Private Pickle]

Violation of amendment 4.

Clear cut case. I saw a poll today that said 48% of Americans agree with this because it fights terrorism. I almost threw my laptop at the TV.

[Chris]

i heard someone say on NPR yesterday that he fell off a training platform and broke his leg...

STarting to sound like a Hollywood gossip column here. ;-)

[Private Pickle]

No, what has been leaked are some documents out of context that don't mention Americans or warrants or anything of the sort. We have no real idea what those documents pertain to....but we do know that they do not show Americans were spied upon without warrants.

Keep readin:


The Washington Post noted that the leaked document indicated that the PRISM SIGAD is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports."[11] The President's Daily Brief, an all-source intelligence product, cited PRISM data as a source in 1,477 items in 2012.[12] The leaked information came to light one day after the revelation that the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court had been requiring the telecommunications company Verizon to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls on an ongoing daily basis.[2][13]
NSA whistleblower William Binney has stated that PRISM is just another source of input of information. "The telecoms were giving NSA access to their communication lines. The Narus devices that the NSA put in different rooms around the AT&T fiber-optic network, or Verizon's network, couldn't collect everything. They could get most of it, but they couldn't get it all. So in order to get all the data, they had to go to the service providers to fill in the blanks. That's what the PRISM program is for—to fill in the blanks. It also gives the FBI basis for introducing evidence into court."[14]

At some point you must realize that your communications have been obtained by the government and that they can deem you a threat at anytime and use that information against you...even taking it as far as the courts.

How is that any different than a police department tapping your phone and keeping your calls just in case, someday, you break the law?

[Chris]

Clear cut case. I saw a poll today that said 48% of Americans agree with this because it fights terrorism. I almost threw my laptop at the TV.

Saw a poll said it was higher, iirc, it comoared to when Bush was in office to now, and aporoval for this has grow right along with growth in government.

[Ravi]

Keep readin:


At some point you must realize that your communications have been obtained by the government and that they can deem you a threat at anytime and use that information against you...even taking it as far as the courts.

How is that any different than a police department tapping your phone and keeping your calls just in case, someday, you break the law?
At some point you have to realize that the documents released don't say what you, or wikipedia, claim. If they did you could easily point that information out to me instead of relying on something posted on wikipedia.

[junie]

“As I advanced and learned the dangerous truth behind the U.S. policies that seek to develop secret, irresistible powers and concentrate them in the hands of an unaccountable few, human weakness haunted me,” Snowden wrote in the note, which would accompany the first documents he leaked. “As I worked in secret to resist them, selfish fear questioned if the stone thrown by a single man could justify the loss of everything he loves.

...


Snowden, who identified himself Sunday (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/intelligence-leaders-push-back-on-leakers-media/2013/06/09/fff80160-d122-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?hpid=z1) as the main source behind recent disclosures of sweeping government surveillance programs, worked for years inside the U.S. intelligence community. As he did so, he said, he became disillusioned with American government policies.


In an interview, he told The Washington Post that he could not “recall a single moment” in which his desire to violate his oath to protect top-secret information coalesced into the final decision to reveal that information publicly.


“It was more of a slow realization that presidents could openly lie to secure the office and then break public promises without consequence,” he said.


According to campaign finance reports, Snowden made a $250 donation to Ron Paul’s 2012 presidential campaign (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/?p=45827)in March of that year, and gave another $250 in May. Paul has been a critic of excessive government intrusion.


Snowden, a soft-spoken “infrastructure analyst” with ties to the Washington area, said he advanced in the intelligence world through his understanding of computer programming and the Internet, though he has no visible Internet presence himself.


With wire glasses, short, dark hair and a thin goatee, he maintains an academic look. Yet he never completed his coursework at a community college in Maryland, only later obtaining his GED — an unusually light education for someone who would advance in the intelligence ranks.



The Obama administration said Sunday that the NSA has asked the Justice Department to investigate the leak.

Booz Allen condemned its erstwhile employee, and said Snowden had worked for them for less than three months.


“News reports that this individual has claimed to have leaked classified information are shocking, and if accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm,’’ the company said, vowing to work closely with authorities in the investigation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/edward-snowden-says-motive-behind-leaks-was-to-expose-surveillance-state/2013/06/09/aa3f0804-d13b-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html

[Ravi]

lol it reminds me of the few stooges on remote political forums who acted sooo offended when the streets of boston got shut down when the bombers were fleeing. paranoid nitwits acted like it was some sort of big government oppression, but the people in boston were naturally compelled to cooperate in defending their streets, and in the end we saw the community actually cheering in the streets and honoring the valiant efforts of the police officers... it took a total of one hundred hours and we nabbed them before they could hurt anybody else!

I wonder if Snowden is a troofer or birfer?

[Mister D]

At some point you have to realize that the documents released don't say what you, or wikipedia, claim. If they did you could easily point that information out to me instead of relying on something posted on wikipedia.

Wikpedia is not the source Marie.

[Mister D]

Saw a poll said it was higher, iirc, it comoared to when Bush was in office to now, and aporoval for this has grow right along with growth in government.

Watched the news briefly yesterday evening. The talking heads were unanimous in their support of the policy with hardly a pretence of concern. That might be reassuring to some but seems ominous to me.

[Chris]

I wonder if Snowden is a troofer or birfer?

Did you hear he left his pretty ballerina girlfriend behind, what a nutter!

[Private Pickle]

At some point you have to realize that the documents released don't say what you, or wikipedia, claim. If they did you could easily point that information out to me instead of relying on something posted on wikipedia.

I guess I'm confused then. Can you explain to me what was leaked? Why Snowden leaked selectively and not everything like Manning with wiki leaks?

The Fourth Amendment states, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Do you not think the collection of this information is contrary to the 4th?

[junie]

STarting to sound like a Hollywood gossip column here. ;-)



if you say so... :facepalm:






“His records indicate he enlisted in the Army Reserve as a Special Forces Recruit (18X) on 7 May 2004 but was discharged 28 September 2004. He did not complete any training or receive any awards,” the spokesman said.

he told The Guardian that he “broke both his legs in a training accident.”

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-army-discharge-92486.html

[Mainecoons]

Pat Caddell puts his finger right on it here:


First, if the PRISM program and all the rest of the government’s surveillance programs were so good and necessary, then why didn’t the feds catch the Tsarnaev brothers, who earlier this year blew up the Boston Marathon? Or Major Hassan, the 2009 Fort Hood mass-murderer? Or the “underwear bomber,” also from 2009, who nearly succeeded in blowing up the passenger jet flying into Detroit?


Second, if and when everything is revealed about PRISM and all the rest, it’s likely that we will learn of important and inculpating connections between the National Security Agency (NSA), on the one hand, and many civilian agencies, on the other. I am not just referring to Eric Holder’s Justice Department; I am also referring to the gleefully gushing leakers and win-at-any-cost politicos in the White House. And oh yes, let’s not forget the Obama administration’s partisan allies at the IRS, as well as the Obamacare overseers at the Department of Health and Human Services.


Fourth, it’s not an accident that these Silicon Valley companies are supporters of Barack Obama. The greatest among these Obama supporters is Eric Schmidt, executive chairman of the largest of these companies, Google. Google gained a lot of traction--the company is now worth nearly $300 billion, and Schmidt owns a good chunk of that--on the slogan, “Don’t be evil.” But now we know better. Indeed, we are reminded of another old piece of wisdom: Be extra careful around the man who protests his virtue too much. And beware the company, too.
Google and all the rest of the Silicon Valleyites say they didn’t know about what was happening, and if you don’t believe that, well, they will then tell you that they didn’t provide “direct access.” Oh, okay, not “direct access”--just full access. And what did the companies get in return for this cooperation with the government? A pat on the head? Or something more? Did any of these companies make any serious attempt to put any sort of limits on what was being snooped, and how it was being utilized? (That collusion between leftist corporatists and Obama we've been posting about.)


And there we see the central cleft in our politics today: the widening gap between the government and the governed.
According to pollster Scott Rasmussen (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59_oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_ records), the American people oppose the US government’s secret collection of phone records by a whopping 59:26 margin.
People know, in their bones, that unaccountable government is bad government; as Patrick Henry said more than two centuries ago, “The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.” So when Obama said, on Friday, “I welcome this debate and I think it's healthy for our democracy,” we might ask right back: Mr. President, if you welcome this debate so much, why didn’t you begin the debate yourself? Why did you wait until PRISM was leaked?
The reason, of course, is that Obama did not see anything objectionable about PRISM. Moreover, neither did anyone around him--in either party. On Sunday, the talkshow airwaves were thick with DC Establishment tools rallying around PRISM--that is, rallying around their own entrenched and centralized power.





He has worked for Democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)) presidential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) candidates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidate) George McGovern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_McGovern) in 1972, Jimmy Carter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter) in 1976 and 1980, Gary Hart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Hart) in 1984, Joe Biden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden) in 1988, and Jerry Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Brown) in 1992. He also worked forColorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado) Senate candidate Andrew Romanoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Romanoff) in 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Colorado,_2010).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Caddell#cite_note-Hack-1)

One of your own, libs, from the Democratic Party before it was taken over by Chicago thugs.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/06/10/The-Fuse-Has-Been-Lit-Seven-Critical-Points-on-Uncle-Sam-s-Spying-Program

He makes the exact point I made earlier when I posted the Pew Poll story. The sheeple at this point are not connecting the behavior of the IRS with the real danger in this government snooping on everyone. It can and IT WILL be abused for ideological reasons just as the IRS abuses conservative organizations and individuals.

[Chris]

if you say so... :facepalm:

Sooooo, what do you think of his leaving his girlfriend behind? Inquiring minds want to know!

[junie]

Sooooo, what do you think of his leaving his girlfriend behind? Inquiring minds want to know!


lol i think he is a fool with some sort of a martyr complex...

[Chris]

Clear cut case. I saw a poll today that said 48% of Americans agree with this because it fights terrorism. I almost threw my laptop at the TV.


Here's that poll. 56% approval generally, 64% among dems.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/10/pew-democrats-cool-with-nsa-data-diving

[Mainecoons]

That's the poll I posted earlier. When you look at the questions, you see that none of them raise the possibility of abuse of all this snooping which really is the issue here. The people have not made the connection at all. Let us hope that as more "mainstream" liberals like Pat Caddell make the connection for them, they'll get it.

[BrianDamage]

He said:



http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355/edward-snowden-interview-transcript-full-text-read-the-guardian-s-entire-interview-with-the-man-who-leaked-prism

This sounds extremely far fetched. How would a techie, who apparently had only been working for three weeks at that, have access to "undercover assets" all over the world?

He was an infrastructure architect. As such, he probably had a lot more access than a non-techie would expect. I've been in IT for over 30 years. No matter how many rules for data handling you put in place, inevitably, hacks will occur to make the system more efficient. (Not the bad kind of hack. It just means an unasked for change.) Since all those data handling rules reduce efficiency, a fair number of those hacks will involve ways of getting around them.

So, it's possible he had more access than you would think. But, he's already been caught in one exaggeration, claiming to be earning $200k, when he was actually pulling in $122k.

tl:dr - He probably didn't have as much access as he's saying he had, but he almost certainly had more than you would expect.

[Private Pickle]

Here's that poll. 56% approval generally, 64% among dems.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/10/pew-democrats-cool-with-nsa-data-diving

Wow...just wow...these people are so comfortable that this wont affect them that they are willing to let it happen. It's like the frog that you put in water and slowly heat up to a boil...the frog just sits there and eventually dies...

[Chris]

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
-Madison

[Chris]

lol i think he is a fool with some sort of a martyr complex...

He deserves a good old flogging! Cat o nines!!

[zelmo1234]

Nope, because torture is illegal.

We do not know yet, but the program might have shifted from what it was designed to do, into something Illegal as well.

Obama making a speach in CA at a fund raiser is not going to put my mind at ease? His administration lacks a certain credibility!

So I beleive like with the IRS, EPA, Benghazi, Fast and Fruious, and now the NSA we need to get to the bottom of them and find out what the real truth is. And let the truth guide the investigation not party politics.

The most open administration in history cold help this by not trying to cover things up!

[junie]

I still don't believe that he has the level of access that he has claimed. That would be crazy. Though perhaps it is crazy to outsource our intelligence.



i found the quote i saw on cbs news last night...





Snowden said he instigated one of the biggest government leaks in U.S. history to inform the public of what he called "the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life."


He was a systems engineer and administrator for the CIA, and most recently worked as a contractor at the U.S. National Security Agency.


In an interview with Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1), published on the Guardian website, Snowden talked about the system built to conduct surveillance of U.S. citizens:

"I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant to a federal judge or even a president," Snowden said. "Even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded. You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use the system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with."


...


"The Obama administration insists that it has built many more safeguards and checks and balances within that surveillance, but it would have preferred not to admit to surveillance, and now it knows it's going to have to prove in the court of public opinion all the safeguards and checks and balances built around that surveillance," said Garrett.


Director of National Intelligence James Clapper says they do not target U.S. citizens. But Snowden claims the programs are open to abuse.


Senior correspondent John Miller said that the U.S. intelligence community is largely run not by government staffers but by contractors: "When I was working as a director of national intelligence, I had a staff of six or seven government employees and 38 contractors. That's not terribly unusual out there."


Miller noted that Snowden's access to classified material was not as an intelligence analyst, but as a computer technician. "According to him, he's supposedly involved in computer security so that allows you to roam through the system. His authorities are nothing like what he said they were, though," he said.


This week they will talk about going forward with a criminal investigation. "He's made himself the prime suspect. He could get indicted, charged, and subject to extradition," said Miller.


...

Rep. Eric Cantor, the House Republican leader, said that an investigation this week on Capitol Hill into the NSA programs "will be very serious, obviously. We'll be dealing with a balance between national security and safeguarding our civil liberties."


Cantor said that the NSA programs, as set up, were legal. "There's no question that there's some extraordinary programs with extraordinary breadth, but when Congress after 9/11 went about enacting some of these programs, what it did was empower our law enforcement officials, and did so in a constitutional manner. Now we don't know what happened in this instance, and we've got to find out."


Snowden told The Guardian he lacked a high school diploma and served in the U.S. Army until he was discharged because of an injury, and later worked as a security guard with the NSA.


He later went to work for the CIA as an information technology employee and by 2007 was stationed in Geneva, Switzerland, where he had access to classified documents.


During that time, he considered going public about the nation's secretive programs but told the newspaper he decided against it, because he did not want to put anyone in danger and he hoped Obama's election would curtail some of the clandestine programs.


He said he was disappointed that Obama did not rein in the surveillance programs.


"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he told The Guardian. "I realized that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588462/snowden-leak-of-nsa-spy-programs-marks-my-end/?pageNum=2

[Ravi]

LMAO. He had the authority to wiretap the President? He gets less credible by the minute.

Have you seen this one, from Google:


In a letter (http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2013/06/asking-us-government-to-allow-google-to.html) addressed to Attorney General Eric Holder on Tuesday, Google's Chief Legal Officer David Drummond writes that nondisclosure obligations concerning FISA national security requests fuels false speculation that the government has sweeping access to its customers' private data.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/google-asks-government-to-allow-publishing-of-national

[Chris]

Go get him, girls. Shoot the messenger, leave the message standing.

[junie]

LMAO. He had the authority to wiretap the President? He gets less credible by the minute.

Have you seen this one, from Google:


http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/google-asks-government-to-allow-publishing-of-national



his own words give credence to the notion that he took his oath under false pretenses with the intention of finding out more info that he could reveal...





He later went to work for the CIA as an information technology employee and by 2007 was stationed in Geneva, Switzerland, where he had access to classified documents.


During that time, he considered going public about the nation's secretive programs but told the newspaper he decided against it, because he did not want to put anyone in danger and he hoped Obama's election would curtail some of the clandestine programs.


He said he was disappointed that Obama did not rein in the surveillance programs.


"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he told The Guardian. "I realized that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."

[Ravi]

In a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director Robert Mueller, Google Chief Legal Officer David Drummond said, “Assertions in the press that our compliance with these requests gives the U.S. government unfettered access to our users’ data are simply untrue.” But he said Google has been hampered by “government nondisclosure obligations regarding the number of FISA national security requests that Google receives.” “We therefore ask you to help make it possible for Google to publish in our Transparency Report aggregate numbers of national security requests, including FISA disclosures-in terms of both the number we receive and their scope,” Drummond wrote.

http://stream.marketwatch.com/story/markets/SS-4-4/SS-4-32310/

[Ravi]

Go get him, girls. Shoot the messenger, leave the message standing.It appears that his message is a lie.

[jillian]

It appears that his message is a lie.

you know that doesn't matter.... as long as it was anti-gubmint.

[Ravi]

you know that doesn't matter.... as long as it was anti-gubmint.Sadly. This dude is doing a lot of damage to the USA.

[Ravi]

I mean seriously. Does anyone ACTUALLY BELIEVE that this guy had the authority to wiretap the president???

This is like another fucking Brietbart bullshit story only much, much worse in damage.

[Chris]

I mean seriously. Does anyone ACTUALLY BELIEVE that this guy had the authority to wiretap the president???

This is like another fucking Brietbart bullshit story only much, much worse in damage.

Don't know, nether do you.

[Chris]

It appears that his message is a lie.

On what basis, your personal disbelief? Forgive me for wanting to wait and see what the facts are.

[Ravi]

On what basis, your personal disbelief? Forgive me for wanting to wait and see what the facts are.

After you've already called him a hero and pretended that what he released said something that it did not?

[Private Pickle]

After you've already called him a hero and pretended that what he released said something that it did not?

Marie. What do you think he released?

[jillian]

I mean seriously. Does anyone ACTUALLY BELIEVE that this guy had the authority to wiretap the president???

This is like another fucking Brietbart bullshit story only much, much worse in damage.

it did sound like a bit of puffery.

[JimH52]

Yeah, like Zimmerman. In the liberal mind.

:grin:

His biggest concern is that his sacrifice is for naught. Looking at the Pew Poll, I would say the Sheeple are quite happy to be spied on.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

He has made assertions that are not true. He has stolen and made public classified data. He has broken mutiple laws. Both the right and left agree on this one. But you keep defending him. It is noble and as intelligent as his actions.

[junie]

Go get him, girls. Shoot the messenger, leave the message standing.



you mean like what snowden did with the "message" he received from the US government documents that legal covert surveillance exists in the USA...?

leave the message standing that snowden was so sure he is the only individual in an entire organization who is scrupulous enough to consider the importance of privacy as provided in our constitution's 4th amendment, and convinced himself of some tyrannical slippery slope conspiracy to harm innocent americans..?

yeeeah shoot THAT message down you big delusional hero, you...



On what basis, your personal disbelief? Forgive me for wanting to wait and see what the facts are.



on what basis does an IT tech shoot down US intelligence efforts, hmm? his OPINION of info he was privy to but had no business judging!

[Mainecoons]

http://assets.amuniversal.com/4642a9d0b3ea0130ded7001dd8b71c47

[Mainecoons]

The American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.latimes.com/topic/social-issues/american-civil-liberties-union-ORCIG0000034.topic) announced Tuesday that it has filed a federal lawsuit against key members of President Obama (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/barack-obama-PEPLT007408.topic)’s national security team over the National Security Agency (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/defense/security-measures/national-security-agency-ORGOV0000104.topic)’s telephone surveillance, the first legal challenge to the newly disclosed intelligence gathering system.
The suit, filed in U.S. District Court in New York, argues that the NSA’s ongoing, daily collection of virtually all Verizon (http://www.latimes.com/topic/economy-business-finance/verizon-communications-ORCRP016243.topic) telephone records is unconstitutional and should be stopped.
"This dragnet program is surely one of the largest surveillance efforts ever launched by a democratic government against its own citizens," Jameel Jaffer, ACLU deputy legal director, said in a statement. "It is the equivalent of requiring every American to file a daily report with the government of every location they visited, every person they talked to on the phone, the time of each call, and the length of every conversation.”

As a Verizon customer, the ACLU claims that the NSA’s seizure of telephone records “compromises sensitive information about its work” and harms its ability to freely communicate.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-aclu-sues-over-nsa-surveillance-20130611,0,4567996.story

[Private Pickle]

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-aclu-sues-over-nsa-surveillance-20130611,0,4567996.story




Bully on you ACLU!

[jillian]

Bully on you ACLU!

funny... usually the right calls them commies and says horrible things about them.

[Mainecoons]

Funny, your position on this is looking more and more isolated from even your fellow leftists.

However, the politicians who are responsible for this snooping are in full agreement with you, both the Republicrats like BoneHead and most of the Demicans too.

We have a government of the government, by the government and FOR the government and it appears you think that is jolly good.

[Chris]

funny... usually the right calls them commies and says horrible things about them.

Boggles the mind when something said doesn't fit preconceptions about people, doesn't it. Cognitive dissonance sets in.

"ACLU sues Obama administration over NSA surveillance"

So how do you feel about that?

[Private Pickle]

funny... usually the right calls them commies and says horrible things about them.

I'm all about American Civil Liberties.

[JimH52]

This is the way Democracy should work. Congress and Courts and Rational Thinking...No one should think they can decide unilaterally what is right and what is wrong with the intelligence gathering as this kid did. I suppose the fact that Putin and Russia are offering him sanction should give you pause? Or maybe not...

[Mainecoons]

When you have a government snooping on every citizen, you don't have democracy. You have a government that needs to be handled by whatever means possible.

You are really being left hanging out there by your fellow liberals. Check the number of lawsuits from them against Obama and his thug government that are piling up.

Time to rethink your position on this.

[Chris]

This is the way Democracy should work. Congress and Courts and Rational Thinking...No one should think they can decide unilaterally what is right and what is wrong with the intelligence gathering as this kid did. I suppose the fact that Putin and Russia are offering him sanction should give you pause? Or maybe not...

But who watches the watchers? That to me is the problem here. Trust but verify.

[Private Pickle]

But who watches the watchers? That to me is the problem here. Trust but verify.

I agree. On one hand you have the Director of Intelligence saying this information isn't collected on Americans...then you have a whistle blower saying hey...not only is it being collected but it's being collected on millions of Americans.

[Chris]

I agree. On one hand you have the Director of Intelligence saying this information isn't collected on Americans...then you have a whistle blower saying hey...not only is it being collected but it's being collected on millions of Americans.

But I don't have a good concrete solution. Special prosecutor? An institution like the Fed separate from government? But some secrecy is warranted given an international community of state secrets.

[junie]

Those with clearances are briefed on how to raise issues on legality and ethics within the parameters of security, and none of those processes involve sending the data to a newspaper. If all else fails, one can contact a member of Congress to discuss whatever issue arises, especially those on committees with oversight of the activities involved. That’s doubly true for those within the military, where chain-of-command prevails in most cases.

...


People have an almost irrepressible desire to tell secrets, especially those that don’t belong to them, which is why government has to establish strong deterrents to leaks that could get people killed and damage our ability to defend ourselves.

...


In the case of Edward Snowden, he had the same options.

Snowden had donated to the Ron Paul campaign — twice — as the International Business Times notes (http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-whistleblower-revealed-edward-snowden-donated-500-ron-pauls-2012-presidential-campaign-does-nsa#):

Campaign contribution records appear to show that Edward Snowden, the confessed National Security Agency whistle-blower who spoke out against government surveillance in the Guardian on Sunday, donated $500 to Ron Paul’s 2012 presidentialbid (http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-whistleblower-revealed-edward-snowden-donated-500-ron-pauls-2012-presidential-campaign-does-nsa#).
Records at CampaignMoney.com (http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/edward-snowden.asp?cycle=12) show two contributions of $250 each from an Edward Snowden with addresses in Hawaii and Maryland. According to the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance)’s interview with the 29-year-old whistle-blower, Snowden lived with his family in Maryland before moving to Hawaii.


One of the records lists Snowden’s employer as Dell Inc. (NASDAQ:DELL), which was also referenced in the Guardian interview.


Additionally, a document on the Federal Election Commission (http://images.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?12952514893) website shows a $250 contribution from an Edward Snowden in Waipahu, Hawaii, to the Ron Paul 2012Presidential (http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-whistleblower-revealed-edward-snowden-donated-500-ron-pauls-2012-presidential-campaign-does-nsa#) Campaign Committee Inc.



Quite obviously, Snowden was aware of Paul’s mistrust of the intelligence-industrial complex. If Snowden wanted to blow the whistle, why not arrange to brief Rep. Paul about the PRISM program in 2012, when Paul was still a member of Congress? Better yet, why not brief his son Rand Paul, since 2011 a US Senator and equally mistrustful of the same? Two months ago, Paul launched a talking filibuster to force the White House to clarify its position on using drones against Americans in the US. One might conclude that this would have been a propitious moment for a disillusioned intel worker to brief Senator Paul on the NSA’s secret spying programs.



Instead, Snowden went to the Washington Post and Guardian. Some will argue that this makes him a hero, but Michael Moynihan cautions against that rising meme (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-we-love-you-why-we-should-resist-the-hero-worship.html):



http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/10/why-didnt-snowden-give-paul-prism-instead-of-500/

[Chris]

...

What's your point, junie?

[Private Pickle]

But I don't have a good concrete solution. Special prosecutor? An institution like the Fed separate from government? But some secrecy is warranted given an international community of state secrets.

For this case a Congressional Inquiry followed up by a Special Prosecutor if appropriate. I hesitate in creating new Federal/Civil entities to do jobs which should be done by existing entities. It just makes the beast and burden bigger.

[Chris]

For this case a Congressional Inquiry followed up by a Special Prosecutor if appropriate. I hesitate in creating new Federal/Civil entities to do jobs which should be done by existing entities. It just makes the beast and burden bigger.

Right, that was the wall I kept running into, "It just makes the [Leviathan] beast and burden bigger."

[junie]

What's your point, junie?


what's yours?

[Chris]

what's yours?

The point of my question is to express an interest in what your point is. Was. None.

[junie]

The point of my question is to express an interest in what your point is. Was. None.


ad hom ignored. :D

[Chris]

ad hom ignored. :D

Can you point out the ad hom or is that a straw man?

Still curious what you think.

[JimH52]

Chris, Snowden broke the law and will soon be charged. That is the bottom line. He is a kid that made a very dangerous mistake. He is not a whistle blower. Do you consider him a Hero?

[jillian]

Chris, Snowden broke the law and will soon be charged. That is the bottom line. He is a kid that made a very dangerous mistake. He is not a whistle blower. Do you consider him a Hero?

an illegality has to be disclosed for someone to be a whistle blower.

what this person who ran away to hong kong "disclosed" was the law and practice since 2002.

the discussion could have been had without his violating the public trust.

[patrickt]

He said:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/47355/edward-snowden-interview-transcript-full-text-read-the-guardian-s-entire-interview-with-the-man-who-leaked-prism

This sounds extremely far fetched. How would a techie, who apparently had only been working for three weeks at that, have access to "undercover assets" all over the world?

I don't know if Mr. Snowden is credible. He's a new player on the scene. We do know that President Obama, Sen. Hillary Clinton, Rep. Pelosi, AG Eric Holder, numerous managers in the IRS, and Jay Carney are not at all credible. I guess I'll have to wait and see if Mr. Snowden is as incredible as the nitwits I listed and others in this administration.

[zelmo1234]

Chris, Snowden broke the law and will soon be charged. That is the bottom line. He is a kid that made a very dangerous mistake. He is not a whistle blower. Do you consider him a Hero?

I think that he knew he would not be given whistle blower status because there is support for this programs form republicans and democrats.

That being said did he do the right thing in letting the public know that this program is getting out of control!

Sometimes that right thing lands you in prison! I for one think this could lead to some restraints on government information gathering!

[Chris]

Chris, Snowden broke the law and will soon be charged. That is the bottom line. He is a kid that made a very dangerous mistake. He is not a whistle blower. Do you consider him a Hero?

I think you're placing the cart before the horse, until he's charged and subsequently found guilty he is innocent according to our justice system.

I don't know what to consider him till I hear more FACTS and less OPINIONS.

[Cigar]

I think you're placing the cart before the horse, until he's charged and subsequently found guilty he is innocent according to our justice system.

I don't know what to consider him till I hear more FACTS and less OPINIONS.

In his own words ... he leaked classified information ... it's a Legal FACT that leaking classified information after taking an oath not to do so is ... well is a crime.

The FACT that you "hide" afterwards ... sure as hell doesn't help his case for innocence.

[Chris]

In his own words ... he leaked classified information ... it's a Legal FACT that leaking classified information after taking an oath not to do so is ... well is a crime.

The FACT that you "hide" afterwards ... sure as hell doesn't help his case for innocence.

It's interesting that those who attack Snowden the messenger claim he is not credible but contradictorily trust what he says when it's convenient. What if the docs weren't classified, what if it's all a hoax?

[junie]

this low level techie took it upon himself to be judge and jury on our intelligence systems... speaking of guilty without all the facts!

he deliberately ignored proper protocol for the reporting of suspected abuses. he judged that the USA is guilty of unlawful abuses, and he judged that all of his co-workers were guilty of turning a blind eye to unlawful abuses. guilty without knowing all of the facts...

he judged the USA guilty of illegal surveillance because he saw evidence that we collect metadata and jumped to the conclusion that meant the US conducts illegal surveillance, when in fact the court had ruled it constitutional to collect metadata as a means to retroactively connect the dots after a crime is committed and legal authority is then granted to do so...

this IT tech unilaterally decided he just had to go straight to the press while completely ignoring the security protocol legally required. he said he felt the "people should have this debate", when in reality, the USA has been openly having this debate... since 9/11 the privacy issue has been thoroughly debated openly by our congressional representatives and in our courts, so everyone involved in NSA already understands the delicate balance of adhering to our 4th amendment protections while protecting our national security. therefore IMO this weasel is not a "whistle blower" by any means, he is nothing but an unlawful leaker of classified information. and he is guilty by his own admission!

[Cigar]

It's interesting that those who attack Snowden the messenger claim he is not credible but contradictorily trust what he says when it's convenient. What if the docs weren't classified, what if it's all a hoax?

I'm personally not an attacker of Snowden ... but I wonder how well this guy would do in Corporate America giving out Corporate Info?

Like ... if this guy would Blow the whistle on Wal-Mart ... how may here would jump to his defense?

[junie]

In his own words ... he leaked classified information ... it's a Legal FACT that leaking classified information after taking an oath not to do so is ... well is a crime.

The FACT that you "hide" afterwards ... sure as hell doesn't help his case for innocence.



lol right? he claims the USA is an abuser of rights and runs to China as his safe haven...? :loco:

[Chris]

this low level techie took it upon himself to be judge and jury on our intelligence systems... speaking of guilty without all the facts!

he deliberately ignored proper protocol for the reporting of suspected abuses. he judged that the USA is guilty of unlawful abuses, and he judged that all of his co-workers were guilty of turning a blind eye to unlawful abuses. guilty without knowing all of the facts...

he judged the USA guilty of illegal surveillance because he saw evidence that we collect metadata and jumped to the conclusion that meant the US conducts illegal surveillance, when in fact the court had ruled it constitutional to collect metadata as a means to retroactively connect the dots after a crime is committed and legal authority is then granted to do so...

this IT tech unilaterally decided he just had to go straight to the press while completely ignoring the security protocol legally required. he said he felt the "people should have this debate", when in reality, the USA has been openly having this debate... since 9/11 the privacy issue has been thoroughly debated openly by our congressional representatives and in our courts, so everyone involved in NSA already understands the delicate balance of adhering to our 4th amendment protections while protecting our national security. therefore IMO this weasel is not a "whistle blower" by any means, he is nothing but an unlawful leaker of classified information. and he is guilty by his own admission!

I think you've mastered attacking the messenger!!

[Chris]

I'm personally not an attacker of Snowden ... but I wonder how well this guy would do in Corporate America giving out Corporate Info?

Like ... if this guy would Blow the whistle on Wal-Mart ... how may here would jump to his defense?

I agree with your implication, this is only possible in government.

[Chris]

lol right? he claims the USA is an abuser of rights and runs to China as his safe haven...? :loco:

Hong Kong. Just a minor fact.

[Ravi]

this low level techie took it upon himself to be judge and jury on our intelligence systems... speaking of guilty without all the facts!

he deliberately ignored proper protocol for the reporting of suspected abuses. he judged that the USA is guilty of unlawful abuses, and he judged that all of his co-workers were guilty of turning a blind eye to unlawful abuses. guilty without knowing all of the facts...

he judged the USA guilty of illegal surveillance because he saw evidence that we collect metadata and jumped to the conclusion that meant the US conducts illegal surveillance, when in fact the court had ruled it constitutional to collect metadata as a means to retroactively connect the dots after a crime is committed and legal authority is then granted to do so...

this IT tech unilaterally decided he just had to go straight to the press while completely ignoring the security protocol legally required. he said he felt the "people should have this debate", when in reality, the USA has been openly having this debate... since 9/11 the privacy issue has been thoroughly debated openly by our congressional representatives and in our courts, so everyone involved in NSA already understands the delicate balance of adhering to our 4th amendment protections while protecting our national security. therefore IMO this weasel is not a "whistle blower" by any means, he is nothing but an unlawful leaker of classified information. and he is guilty by his own admission!

Yep.

[junie]

the guy failed to graduate high school and ended up getting his GED, he failed to finish requirements toward a college degree, and he failed at army basic training...

i bet that made him feel pretty small... :undecided20:

[Chris]

the guy failed to graduate high school and ended up getting his GED, he failed to finish requirements toward a college degree, and he failed at army basic training...

i bet that made him feel pretty small... :undecided20:

Forever imputing motives, feelings, thoughts and so on for other people. Do you have a degree in psychology, junie--just askin'.

From http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/dropouts.html:


Noted High School and Elementary School Dropouts

...

Billionaires: 25
Millionaires: uncounted
U.S. Presidents: 8
Astronauts: 1 (Valentina Tereshkova)
Nobel Prize Winners: 10 (6 Literature, 2 Peace, 1 Physics, 1 Chemistry)
Olympic Medal Winners: 8 (7 Gold Medalists, one Silver Medalist)
Oscar Winners: 63
Oscar Nominees: 105 (includes above)
Other Award Winners: uncounted
Best-Selling Authors: 56
Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients (U.S.'s highest civilian honor): 14
Congressional Gold Medal recipients (U.S.): 12
United Nations Goodwill Ambassadors: 2 (Roger Moore, Angelina Jolie)
Knighthoods: 28
Damehoods: 3

764 names follow.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/15-notable-people-who-dropped-out-of-school.htm#page=0:

Princess Di
Thomas Edison
Benjamin Franklin
Bill Gates
Albert Einstein
John D. Rockefeller
Walt Disney
Richard Branson...

[Mister D]

Forever imputing motives, feelings, thoughts and so on for other people. Do you have a degree in psychology, junie--just askin'.

From http://www.angelfire.com/stars4/lists/dropouts.html:



764 names follow.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/15-notable-people-who-dropped-out-of-school.htm#page=0:

Princess Di
Thomas Edison
Benjamin Franklin
Bill Gates
Albert Einstein
John D. Rockefeller
Walt Disney
Richard Branson...

I think you just made Juine feel kinda small...:undecided:

[Chris]

I think you just made Juine feel kinda small...:undecided:

Nah, doubt it and that wasn't intent, it was to provide a rational argument dropping out of HS doesn't necessarily mean much.

[Mister D]

Nah, doubt it and that wasn't intent, it was to provide a rational argument dropping out of HS doesn't necessarily mean much.

It was a joke, Chris. BTW, Junie knows that. It only matters because she is convinced there is a reason to dislike this person. If there wasn't she would likely agree with you.

[junie]

:rolleyes: you are forever missing the point, which is the mindset of this particular individual in question.

[Chris]

:rolleyes: you are forever missing the point, which is the mindset of this particular individual in question.

That was not your point, junie.

So what was his mindset according to you and why, what's the basis of that--since it's not not that he was a HS dropout.

[Cigar]

:rolleyes: you are forever missing the point, which is the mindset of this particular individual in question.

I'll bet anything "qualifications" count HUGE what it comes to their own personal finances, safety and security.

Hell ... even these same "experts" are still calling for President Obama's School Records, but I'd bet none of them has taken The Bar Exam and passed it. :tongue:

[junie]

That was not your point, junie.


So what was his mindset according to you and why, what's the basis of that--since it's not not that he was a HS dropout.



Forever imputing motives, feelings, thoughts and so on for other people. :laughing4:


yes, that's what you do...

my point was clear in the initial post...that i bet this leaker of classified info felt pretty small after his long string of failures.

[junie]

based on what he admitted about his mindset in 2007, i bet he intended to break his security oath before he even took this job...






The Obama administration insists that it has built many more safeguards and checks and balances within that surveillance, but it would have preferred not to admit to surveillance, and now it knows it's going to have to prove in the court of public opinion all the safeguards and checks and balances built around that surveillance," said Garrett.


Director of National Intelligence James Clapper says they do not target U.S. citizens. But Snowden claims the programs are open to abuse.


Senior correspondent John Miller said that the U.S. intelligence community is largely run not by government staffers but by contractors: "When I was working as a director of national intelligence, I had a staff of six or seven government employees and 38 contractors. That's not terribly unusual out there."


Miller noted that Snowden's access to classified material was not as an intelligence analyst, but as a computer technician. "According to him, he's supposedly involved in computer security so that allows you to roam through the system. His authorities are nothing like what he said they were, though," he said.


This week they will talk about going forward with a criminal investigation. "He's made himself the prime suspect. He could get indicted, charged, and subject to extradition," said Miller.


...

Rep. Eric Cantor, the House Republican leader, said that an investigation this week on Capitol Hill into the NSA programs "will be very serious, obviously. We'll be dealing with a balance between national security and safeguarding our civil liberties."


Cantor said that the NSA programs, as set up, were legal. "There's no question that there's some extraordinary programs with extraordinary breadth, but when Congress after 9/11 went about enacting some of these programs, what it did was empower our law enforcement officials, and did so in a constitutional manner. Now we don't know what happened in this instance, and we've got to find out."


Snowden told The Guardian he lacked a high school diploma and served in the U.S. Army until he was discharged because of an injury, and later worked as a security guard with the NSA.


He later went to work for the CIA as an information technology employee and by 2007 was stationed in Geneva, Switzerland, where he had access to classified documents.


During that time, he considered going public about the nation's secretive programs but told the newspaper he decided against it, because he did not want to put anyone in danger and he hoped Obama's election would curtail some of the clandestine programs.


He said he was disappointed that Obama did not rein in the surveillance programs.


"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he told The Guardian. "I realized that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...end/?pageNum=2 (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588462/snowden-leak-of-nsa-spy-programs-marks-my-end/?pageNum=2)

[Cigar]

Look ... don't let the technical terms fool you ... Edward Snowden was a ...

Infrastructure Analysis
Systems Engineer
Systems Administrator
Telecom Info Systems

... that ain't Rocket Science folks, and you don't need to pay someone 6 figures for that either.

He wasn't the architect, he wasn't designing, developing or producing jack-shit.

He gave out information that people way smarter than him probed, compiled and analyzed.

[Mainecoons]

and he hoped Obama's election would curtail some of the clandestine programs.

Nope. :grin:

[jillian]

based on what he admitted about his mindset in 2007, i bet he intended to break his security oath before he even took this job...

seems the case.

otherwise, why wouldn't he give whatever it was he learned to ron paul's campaign?

[Ravi]

Sounds like he was snooping where he wasn't supposed to be. Hopefully he didn't get any really important information.

[Cigar]

Sounds like he was snooping where he wasn't supposed to be. Hopefully he didn't get any really important information.

I'm kinda curious ....

Usually the Conservative, Hawkish types are really big on National Security and against anything that would harm it.

Look, I'm no friend of snooping Government programs, but I'm more concerned with entities that use Personal Information for greed and profit!

You know ... like Corporations!

[jillian]

Sounds like he was snooping where he wasn't supposed to be. Hopefully he didn't get any really important information.

truly

[Ravi]

I'm kinda curious ....

Usually the Conservative, Hawkish types are really big on National Security and against anything that would harm it.

Look, I'm no friend of snooping Government programs, but I'm more concerned with entities that use Personal Information for greed and profit!

You know ... like Corporations!

I don't especially like either one though I imagine that making it so the government can't spy at all would be ridiculous. If what this guy did is so easy what is to stop some employee of Google's from publishing all the information it has on one of us?

[Cigar]

I don't especially like either one though I imagine that making it so the government can't spy at all would be ridiculous. If what this guy did is so easy what is to stop some employee of Google's from publishing all the information it has on one of us?

I'm guessing the range of inelegance between and Google employee and this idiot is vast!

Beside ... when you sign a confidentiality agreement and go against it ... you're Legally Screwed ... case closed!

[Chris]

I'll bet anything "qualifications" count HUGE what it comes to their own personal finances, safety and security.

Hell ... even these same "experts" are still calling for President Obama's School Records, but I'd bet none of them has taken The Bar Exam and passed it. :tongue:

Is that your expert opinion?

[Ravi]

Interesting:

"He was lying," Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) said after a closed briefing with NSA Director Keith Alexander, as quoted by The Hill (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/305409-house-intel-chiefs-snowden-lying). "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/house-intel-chair-snowden-is-lying

[Chris]

So you trust the government?

[JimH52]

Interesting:

"He was lying," Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) said after a closed briefing with NSA Director Keith Alexander, as quoted by The Hill (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/305409-house-intel-chiefs-snowden-lying). "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/house-intel-chair-snowden-is-lying

He is a kid that made a terrible mistake in judgement. I am not sure if he is sincere in his words or if he is trying to gain 15 minutes of fame. But I have a feeling that he will be answering that question eventually...once he stops running.

[Chris]

He is a kid that made a terrible mistake in judgement. I am not sure if he is sincere in his words or if he is trying to gain 15 minutes of fame. But I have a feeling that he will be answering that question eventually...once he stops running.

Hey, Jim, have you found some evidence since our last exchange where you admitted you really had nothing to base your opinion on? Share it with us, will ya.

[Ravi]

So you trust the government?

Not always. But at this point I trust them more than a dweeby nutter with a chip on his shoulder.

[Ravi]

He is a kid that made a terrible mistake in judgement. I am not sure if he is sincere in his words or if he is trying to gain 15 minutes of fame. But I have a feeling that he will be answering that question eventually...once he stops running.

He's not really a kid. If you aren't a full adult at 29 it is never going to happen.

[JimH52]

He's not really a kid. If you aren't a full adult at 29 it is never going to happen.

True:rollseyes:

[Chris]

Not always. But at this point I trust them more than a dweeby nutter with a chip on his shoulder.

What are you afraid of that you have to call him names and make up straw men about him?

[Ravi]

What are you afraid of that you have to call him names and make up straw men about him?

Dweeby nutters with chips on their shoulders.

[Chris]

Dweeby nutters with chips on their shoulders.

To be honest your name calling lacks imagination. Way too repetitious.

[Ravi]

Not nearly at your level of repetitious drivel.

[Chris]

Not nearly at your level of repetitious drivel.

Care to point that out and explain? Or was that just drivel?

[junie]

Not nearly at your level of repetitious drivel.



he seems a little upset :dontknow:

[junie]

Care to point that out and explain? Or was that just drivel?


no need to explain what you've already demonstrated... lol

http://thepoliticalforums.com/search.php?searchid=424841

[junie]

Apparently, sedan, anonymous is going to help verify the docs by providing more.

'How little rights you have:' Anonymous leaks more PRISM-related NSA docs (http://rt.com/usa/anonymous-leaks-prism-nsa-docs-395/)



oh noze our government has a access to info which can identify it's citizens! say it isn't so!

2928

[Mister D]

Identify its citizens?


Hackers affiliated with the Anonymous collective have leaked a US Department of Defense memo relating to the PRISM program, revealing that the National Security Agency has secretly gathered intelligence on millions of Americans for years.

Don't they already have my SS card etc? I pay taxes every year. They don't know who I am?

[Chris]

he seems a little upset :dontknow:

Why do you feel the need to invent feelings for me? Really no different than an insult that tell us more about you than me.

[Chris]

no need to explain what you've already demonstrated... lol

http://thepoliticalforums.com/search.php?searchid=424841

If you're trying to help marie you've failed with that post.

[Chris]

oh noze our government has a access to info which can identify it's citizens! say it isn't so!



That one's been repeated and countered many times.

Assume you're correct, that what the government is collecting and analyzing is common readily available personal information.

One, why would the government do that? What purpose does it serve?

Two, why would the government be so secretive about it?

Three, given the above, Snowden did nothing wrong.

[Peter1469]

Identify its citizens?


Don't they already have my SS card etc? I pay taxes every year. They don't know who I am?

I imagine that they do.

[Chris]

Given how government is so incompetent and out of touch with the people, they may very well not know.