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Chris
07-06-2013, 03:31 PM
I think this is true. I see liberals arguing Marx about oppression and inequality day in day out. Apprently they don't realize it, and anger if you point it out.\


...people seem to care a lot more about physical and mental health, living longer, social status and a host of other things than they care about money. And for the most part, money can’t buy the things that people care most about.

So why are intellectuals on the left so obsessed with money inequality instead of the inequality of life’s blessings that people value much more? Certainly in their own lives they don’t act as though money is the most important value. They’re all writers and professors when they could have earned a lot more by getting a law degree or an MBA.

I believe the answer is that they are reactionaries. They’re living in the past.

When Karl Marx was writing about inequality 150 years ago, most people were struggling to meet basic needs. To obtain life’s necessities, you needed money. So it was only natural that money income and wealth were the focus of Marx’s attention. Not surprisingly, redistribution of income was the primary goal of 19th century socialists.

Today things are different. Nature produces all kinds of inequalities that seem a lot more unfair than differences in income. Women for example, live as much as ten years longer than men. Some people are born with genius IQs; others are not as lucky. Some are born with the Huntington’s disease gene; others are not.

If the left wants to redress life’s unfairness, why don’t they advocate redistribution from women to men, from people with healthy genes to unhealthy genes, from high to low IQs? And if Tom Wolfe is right, just about everybody cares about status more than income. Social status is distributed far more unequally than income. So why isn’t the left advocating redistribution from high status to low status individuals?

Why, in other words, are they focused on a 19th century socialist view of the world instead of a 21st century view?

I have believed for some time that the left is intellectually bankrupt....

@ Bereft Of Any New Policy Ideas Since Vietnam, America's Liberal Left Is Intellectually Bankrupt (http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2013/07/02/bereft-of-any-new-policy-ideas-since-vietnam-americas-liberal-left-is-intellectually-bankrupt/)

Ravi
07-06-2013, 03:50 PM
I can count on one finger the only time I ever saw a liberal arguing Marx. And I had my doubts it was an actual liberal.

Chris
07-06-2013, 03:58 PM
I can count on one finger the only time I ever saw a liberal arguing Marx. And I had my doubts it was an actual liberal.

That was sort of the point of my opening comment, that liberals today don't realize they are arguing Marx.

Ravi
07-06-2013, 04:56 PM
Ah, was that your point? I doubt most people in general realize they are arguing some previous philosopher's point unless they've studied philosophy. Except the right, of course. I'd say most on the right realize when they are arguing a far right philosophy, for instance, KKK stuff or Hilter stuff, but they won't admit to it.

jillian
07-06-2013, 04:59 PM
That was sort of the point of my opening comment, that liberals today don't realize they are arguing Marx.

No. The concept existed before Marx and separate from Marx.

But I know, you think if you keep saying it, that will make it true

Chris
07-06-2013, 04:59 PM
Ah, was that your point? I doubt most people in general realize they are arguing some previous philosopher's point unless they've studied philosophy. Except the right, of course. I'd say most on the right realize when they are arguing a far right philosophy, for instance, KKK stuff or Hilter stuff, but they won't admit to it.

OK, good, you understand.

I see you want to change the topic. The KKK were mostly Democrats, not the right. Nazisim, like fascism, was an implementation of socialism, left, not right. Stuff and nonsense.

Peter1469
07-06-2013, 05:07 PM
Right. Nazi's were socialists. Creatures of the left (in the modern American sense.)

Ravi
07-06-2013, 05:08 PM
OK, good, you understand.

I see you want to change the topic. The KKK were mostly Democrats, not the right. Nazisim, like fascism, was an implementation of socialism, left, not right. Stuff and nonsense.Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:09 PM
Ah, was that your point? I doubt most people in general realize they are arguing some previous philosopher's point unless they've studied philosophy. Except the right, of course. I'd say most on the right realize when they are arguing a far right philosophy, for instance, KKK stuff or Hilter stuff, but they won't admit to it.

Who?

Ravi
07-06-2013, 05:09 PM
Right. Nazi's were socialists. Creatures of the left (in the modern American sense.)

Talk about intellectual bankruptcy. I didn't realize you were a Republican.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:10 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.

What would stormfront have to do with Chris' claim? Woman, do ever make sense? Could your husband post while you make him a sandwich? Please?

Peter1469
07-06-2013, 05:11 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.


There are several definitions of right and left. So it does no good to claim that dems in the past were "right", without context. I suspect that you mean social con.

Also Nazis were socialists: National Socialist German Workers' Party

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:11 PM
Talk about intellectual bankruptcy. I didn't realize you were a Republican.

:huh:

Peter1469
07-06-2013, 05:15 PM
Talk about intellectual bankruptcy. I didn't realize you were a Republican.

Sorry, I left the GOP in 2006 because they were spending like drunken sailors.... No offense to sailors, of course. :grin:

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:15 PM
Also Nazis were socialists: National Socialist German Workers' Party

Not only that, Nazism was a humanist philosophy whose primary distinction in that regard was in what they considered human.

roadmaster
07-06-2013, 05:15 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan. LOL, why would you accuse Chris with stormfront?

Peter1469
07-06-2013, 05:16 PM
I can understand why the modern left wants to distance themselves from the Nazis..., but it is intellectually dishonest of them.... :wink:

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:18 PM
LOL, why would you accuse Chris with stormfront?

"Stormfront" is like "meme" and "fauxrage". It's just how some progressives flesh out thoughts and sentences.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:21 PM
Seriously, I'd imagie Marie has said something like this before, "Honey, did we pay the electric bill Stormfront." Or "did you like the mustard I ought meme"?

Mainecoons
07-06-2013, 05:21 PM
Now D, be nice to Marie. She's talked to every liberal in America and assures us that only one of them loves to talk about Marx.

And since she backed this up as much as she backs everything else up, you can take it as gospel.

:rofl:

Chris
07-06-2013, 05:33 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.

Dems were the left back the, marie, remember, Ol' Abe, who freed the slave, he was a Rep, and as we saw elsewhere, a free market capitalist. Read some economics, marie, fascism was an implementation of socialism. No, I don;t read neonazi sites, too far to the left for me.

Dr. Who
07-06-2013, 05:50 PM
What would stormfront have to do with Chris' claim? Woman, do ever make sense? Could your husband post while you make him a sandwich? Please?
That is a really sexist remark D.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:51 PM
That is a really sexist remark D.

And a well deserved one.

Mainecoons
07-06-2013, 05:54 PM
Yep, oink, oink! D, you are a sexist pig.

:rofl:

Mister D
07-06-2013, 05:55 PM
http://www.japanator.com/elephant/ul/8288-pigs copy.jpg

Dr. Who
07-06-2013, 05:58 PM
And a well deserved one.If you disagree with her opinion, fine. But to imply that she is only fit for serving sandwiches and that she should defer to her husband's opinion is both insulting and misogynistic. If a man made the same remark you would address it differently.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 06:04 PM
If you disagree with her opinion, fine. But to imply that she is only fit for serving sandwiches and that she should defer to her husband's opinion is both insulting and misogynistic. If a man made the same remark you would address it differently.

It was a clumsy smear and, in her small mind, an insult. Typical of this broad. Glad to know you approve.

Yes, I would but I would be no less contemptuous. You know that.

Peter1469
07-06-2013, 06:09 PM
http://www.japanator.com/elephant/ul/8288-pigs copy.jpg

Looks like diner!

Dr. Who
07-06-2013, 06:10 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.That's not fair Marie. Chris does not espouse those points of view. He may be part of the political right, but he's not a racist or a bigot.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 06:11 PM
Looks like diner!

Does look organic...

Dr. Who
07-06-2013, 06:13 PM
It was a clumsy smear and, in her small mind, an insult. Typical of this broad. Glad to know you approve.

Yes, I would but I would be no less contemptuous. You know that.Contemptuous is fine. If she took it as an insult, I've heard nothing about it. I just think that you can do better than to stoop to sexism.

Mister D
07-06-2013, 06:14 PM
Contemptuous is fine. If she took it as an insult, I've heard nothing about it. I just think that you can do better than to stoop to sexism.

Understood. You were fair and I will move on.

Agravan
07-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Democrats were the right back then. And no, Nazism had nothing to do with socialism. Next up we'll find out you're a stormfront fan.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

Adolf Hitler - May 1, 1927

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Common
07-06-2013, 06:51 PM
I have to say this, I find it amusing and I seriously mean amusing that todays Far right consider "EVERYONE" that doesnt agree with them categorically straight down the line a lib a marxist and/or a socialist a nazi and many other varied non and profane names.
People can have their own mind and their own thoughts. Others can take the information they gleen from around them the news etc the same places you get yours and make their own decisions about what is right or wrong and come to a totally different conclusion than you, they dont have to agree with you and for others to label them because they dont agree shows just how ignorant they are.
Everyone comes from different backgrounds and different means and have had different experiences that mold their ideals of whats right and wrong. \

I want one of you far righters to explain to me WHY I should support the rich and the corporate interests in this country and put them BEFORE the middleclass the working class and the poor. Give me good reason to do that and just maybe you can change my mind.

Chris
07-06-2013, 06:58 PM
I have to say this, I find it amusing and I seriously mean amusing that todays Far right consider "EVERYONE" that doesnt agree with them categorically straight down the line a lib a marxist and/or a socialist a nazi and many other varied non and profane names.
People can have their own mind and their own thoughts. Others can take the information they gleen from around them the news etc the same places you get yours and make their own decisions about what is right or wrong and come to a totally different conclusion than you, they dont have to agree with you and for others to label them because they dont agree shows just how ignorant they are.
Everyone comes from different backgrounds and different means and have had different experiences that mold their ideals of whats right and wrong. \

I want one of you far righters to explain to me WHY I should support the rich and the corporate interests in this country and put them BEFORE the middleclass the working class and the poor. Give me good reason to do that and just maybe you can change my mind.


explain to me WHY I should support the rich and the corporate interests in this country and put them BEFORE the middleclass the working class and the poor.

Explain why Obama does that? And Bush before him? Ad nauseum.

It's simple, the socialists realized some time ago that they could not attain public ownership of property, so they settled for social democratic centrally planned management of it with regulation and taxation to redistribute wealth to corporations (mainly) or poor (some). This corporatism you decry, this collusion of government and business, this crony capitalism, is nothing but thinly veiled socialism.

Agravan
07-06-2013, 07:05 PM
I have to say this, I find it amusing and I seriously mean amusing that todays Far right consider "EVERYONE" that doesnt agree with them categorically straight down the line a lib a marxist and/or a socialist a nazi and many other varied non and profane names.
People can have their own mind and their own thoughts. Others can take the information they gleen from around them the news etc the same places you get yours and make their own decisions about what is right or wrong and come to a totally different conclusion than you, they dont have to agree with you and for others to label them because they dont agree shows just how ignorant they are.
Everyone comes from different backgrounds and different means and have had different experiences that mold their ideals of whats right and wrong. \

I want one of you far righters to explain to me WHY I should support the rich and the corporate interests in this country and put them BEFORE the middleclass the working class and the poor. Give me good reason to do that and just maybe you can change my mind.

In the first place, you come at with the "support the rich and corporate interests" garbage as if we don't care about the poor at all. We do care about the poor, but we don't think that sending them government checks each month is the best way to take care of them. Finding them jobs, getting them back on their feet, is the best way to support these people, not having them dependent on the dole and the government for the rest of their lives.
Next you will complain that not "helping" them with government assistance is somehow heartless. What, in your mind, is better: teaching people to get on their feet, have some pride in themselves and be self sufficient, or keeping people enslaved to government checks, food stamps, etc. that is paid for by money STOLEN from those of us who do have pride in ourselves and strive to be self sufficient.
I have my own kids to take care of. I don't need to be responsible for yours, your neighbors, and your neighbors parents, etc.
Responsibility for your own actions is not being heartless. It's being an adult. It's time for the left to grow up and get off of mommy's, and the government's, teat

GrassrootsConservative
07-06-2013, 07:13 PM
If you give a man a fish he will have food for a night.

If you teach a man to fish he will have food forever.

Mr Happy
07-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Also Nazis were socialists: National Socialist German Workers' Party

You ever heard of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? You think that country follows any tenets of democracy? Just because an entity is called something, doesn't mean it is...

Mr Happy
07-06-2013, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=Chris;320774 fascism was an implementation of socialism.[/QUOTE]

Do you correlate socialism with communism?

pjohns
07-06-2013, 08:26 PM
I doubt most people in general realize they are arguing some previous philosopher's point unless they've studied philosophy. Except the right, of course. I'd say most on the right realize when they are arguing a far right philosophy, for instance, KKK stuff or Hilter stuff, but they won't admit to it.

That is...well, an interesting observation.

I occupy the center-right. But I am trying very hard to imagine what "KKK stuff" or "Hitler stuff" I might believe...

pjohns
07-06-2013, 08:29 PM
Next up we'll find out [that Chris is] a stormfront fan.

What is it that he has said in this thread (or anywhere else, for that matter) that would tend to indicate that he finds favor with the Nazis, in your opinion?

pjohns
07-06-2013, 08:44 PM
You ever heard of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? You think that country follows any tenets of democracy? Just because an entity is called something, doesn't mean it is...

Democracy is a value that is honored in the breach, at least, by just about everyone. So it makes sense that a totalitarian regime would pretend democratic underpinnings.

There would have been no similar reason for Adolf Hitler to proclaim his fealty to socialism in 1927, so far as I can see...

Agravan
07-06-2013, 09:41 PM
You ever heard of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? You think that country follows any tenets of democracy? Just because an entity is called something, doesn't mean it is...
They are the ideal that the Democrat party strives for.


Just because an entity is called something, doesn't mean it is...

The same could be said of the Democrat party,

Common
07-06-2013, 10:45 PM
In the first place, you come at with the "support the rich and corporate interests" garbage as if we don't care about the poor at all. We do care about the poor, but we don't think that sending them government checks each month is the best way to take care of them. Finding them jobs, getting them back on their feet, is the best way to support these people, not having them dependent on the dole and the government for the rest of their lives.
Next you will complain that not "helping" them with government assistance is somehow heartless. What, in your mind, is better: teaching people to get on their feet, have some pride in themselves and be self sufficient, or keeping people enslaved to government checks, food stamps, etc. that is paid for by money STOLEN from those of us who do have pride in ourselves and strive to be self sufficient.
I have my own kids to take care of. I don't need to be responsible for yours, your neighbors, and your neighbors parents, etc.
Responsibility for your own actions is not being heartless. It's being an adult. It's time for the left to grow up and get off of mommy's, and the government's, teat

Agravan your post address's nothing I asked and you did nothing but make statements that I never said in my post.

patrickt
07-07-2013, 03:31 AM
I can count on one finger the only time I ever saw a liberal arguing Marx. And I had my doubts it was an actual liberal.

But, didn't you say you saw huge trucks weaving down the road all the time. You certainly have selective vision. Every May 1st, where I live, the communists fill the town square with tables set up, selling books and CDs--damned capitalists--and bickering with each other. We have our Maoist, Stalinists, Leninists, Troskyites, and some home-gown indigenous groups thrown in.

A Maoist bickering with a Stalinist reminds me of a Baptist and a Lutheran bickering over the method of baptism. Of course, all of the bad things done are done by those who aren't "true communists" or "true Christians". Other than the faithful, who cares?

Ravi
07-07-2013, 04:34 AM
It was a clumsy smear and, in her small mind, an insult. Typical of this broad. Glad to know you approve.

Yes, I would but I would be no less contemptuous. You know that.
I wasn't insulted, you'll need to try harder. Such an emotional little dude you are.

Ravi
07-07-2013, 04:36 AM
If you give a man a fish he will have food for a night.

If you teach a man to fish he will have food forever.

But you guys don't even want to teach a man to fish. Look at your reaction to healthy lunches in schools.

Ravi
07-07-2013, 04:37 AM
You ever heard of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? You think that country follows any tenets of democracy? Just because an entity is called something, doesn't mean it is...
Exactly

Ravi
07-07-2013, 04:39 AM
That is...well, an interesting observation.

I occupy the center-right. But I am trying very hard to imagine what "KKK stuff" or "Hitler stuff" I might believe...
Demonize immigrants or minorities? Believe the government should decide who gives birth and when? I/ll think of some more after the coffee kicks in but I'm sure you can figure this out.

Chris
07-07-2013, 08:16 AM
Do you correlate socialism with communism?

Communism is another implementation of socialism, just as are fascism, nazism, and even social democracy. Different implementations, same root ideology.

Chris
07-07-2013, 08:17 AM
Agravan your post address's nothing I asked and you did nothing but make statements that I never said in my post.

Agravan addressed your post head on.

Chris
07-07-2013, 08:20 AM
But you guys don't even want to teach a man to fish. Look at your reaction to healthy lunches in schools.

Explain. Be specific instead of vague.

What Agravan said above was very true. We all care about each other, the poor, the weak, the hungry, etc. The difference between us is in how we try to relieve those problems. And that difference is well expressed in GrassrootsConservative fish metaphor.

Chris
07-07-2013, 08:21 AM
Demonize immigrants or minorities? Believe the government should decide who gives birth and when? I/ll think of some more after the coffee kicks in but I'm sure you can figure this out.

Who does that? And what's it got to do with KKK and Hitler stuff?

junie
07-07-2013, 08:38 AM
I think this is true. I see liberals arguing Marx about oppression and inequality day in day out.



link?

Chris
07-07-2013, 08:40 AM
link?

On this forum, junie. It was only a few weeks ago I set about to point out several liberals here arguing the same thing Marx did about the capitalistic oppression of workers.

junie
07-07-2013, 08:54 AM
lol @intellectual bankruptcy of several liberals on this forum...

so says the super intellectual ad hom king!

Mister D
07-07-2013, 08:57 AM
lol @intellectual bankruptcy of several liberals on this forum...

so says the super intellectual ad hom king!

If you don't accept what libertarians say as obviously true you are a Marxist. That's how it works with some of these folks.

Chris
07-07-2013, 09:13 AM
If you don't accept what libertarians say as obviously true you are a Marxist. That's how it works with some of these folks.

It's not based on libertarianism, D, focus on the message rather than the messenger.

Here's an earlier discussion: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/13470-Marxist-Exploitation-Theory?highlight=marx.

Mister D
07-07-2013, 09:17 AM
It's not based on libertarianism, D, focus on the message rather than the messenger.

Here's an earlier discussion: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/13470-Marxist-Exploitation-Theory?highlight=marx.

What I said is true. If the tenets of your faith are not accepted as obviously true than one is a "statist" or a "Marxist" even if they don't know it. :rollseyes:

Chris
07-07-2013, 09:35 AM
What I said is true. If the tenets of your faith are not accepted as obviously true than one is a "statist" or a "Marxist" even if they don't know it. :rollseyes:

My faith? I'm an atheist, remember.

We're talking politics.

Liberals argue much the same thing Marx once did, as per the OP and the link above. That's the point. That and the fact such arguments are old and stale.

Agravan
07-07-2013, 09:47 AM
But you guys don't even want to teach a man to fish. Look at your reaction to healthy lunches in schools.
????
What is our "reaction" to healthy lunches at school, Marie?
Please explain how this relates to teaching someone how to be self sufficient, which was the point of GRC's comment.

Agravan
07-07-2013, 09:48 AM
Agravan your post address's nothing I asked and you did nothing but make statements that I never said in my post.

Your whole post is based on leftist bullsh*t. I addressed the bullsh*t.

BB-35
07-07-2013, 11:12 AM
Sorry, I left the GOP in 2006 because they were spending like drunken sailors.... No offense to sailors, of course. :grin:

You're wrong





Drunken sailors eventually pass out and stop spending.

BB-35
07-07-2013, 11:21 AM
But you guys don't even want to teach a man to fish. Look at your reaction to healthy lunches in schools.

What do you call a 'healthy lunch'?..and why do you think we don't approve?

BB-35
07-07-2013, 11:24 AM
Exactly

Socialist and communist countries always like to claim they are 'democracies and/or republics


Never seen a democracy or republic claim to be socialist or communist

Agravan
07-07-2013, 12:44 PM
Socialist and communist countries always like to claim they are 'democracies and/or republics


Never seen a democracy or republic claim to be socialist or communist
None?
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4928695064332252&pid=1.7

pjohns
07-07-2013, 07:10 PM
Demonize immigrants or minorities?

I demonize neither.

I do believe (quite strongly!) that any sovereign nation must take control of its borders; and that it should allow immigration that is likely to accrue to the benefit of the nation as a whole.


Beleieve the government should decide who gives birth and when?

It took me a moment to recognize the fact that this is an apparent (oblique) referencce to the issue of abortion.

I believe that innocent human life must be protected. That includes the life of an 89-year-old woman with Alzheimer's disease, as well as a life at the opposite end of the age spectrum.

I do see a major difference, however, between a mere zygote and a third-trimester (or late-second-trimester) fetus.

Once a child is recognizably human, I believe that he or she deserves the full protection of the law.

Do you find something Hitlerite in any of this?

Mister D
07-07-2013, 07:12 PM
Demonize? Some progressives seem intent on draining our langauge of meaning.

jillian
07-07-2013, 07:16 PM
Demonize? Some progressives seem intent on draining our langauge of meaning.

that's funny coming from the right... which really IS perverting our language....and intentionally so.

Mister D
07-07-2013, 07:21 PM
that's funny coming from the right... which really IS perverting our language....and intentionally so.

You don't need to run to Marie's defense every time she gets a booboo. She's a big girl. Then again, Marie's clumsy and silly rhetoric is similar to your own so I guess I can see why you might feel compelled to lash out.

Chris
07-07-2013, 07:31 PM
that's funny coming from the right... which really IS perverting our language....and intentionally so.

It would help discussion if you would give some examples. Thanks.

Agravan
07-07-2013, 07:40 PM
It would help discussion if you would give some examples. Thanks.

Don't hold your breath...

Chris
07-07-2013, 07:55 PM
Well, if she does substantiate, we'll all have something to discuss, and if she fails to, then we'll move on as it nothing was said.

Chris
07-08-2013, 07:57 AM
Oh, jillian, did you have some examples of "the right... which really IS perverting our language....and intentionally so"?