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Chris
07-22-2013, 05:35 PM
In another thread, some ask sure it's the law but is it just? The question alone separates out two concepts of law, positive law and natural law. Positive law is posited or legislated law, man-made law, rule of men. Natural law is what is just given man's nature, rights inherent in who we are, rule of law.

So what is just despite law regarding The Snowden Principle (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/snowden-principle_b_3441237.html):


At the heart of Edward Snowden's decision to expose the NSA's massive phone and Internet spying programs was a fundamental belief in the people's right-to-know. "My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them," he said in an interview with the Guardian.

From the State's point of view, he's committed a crime. From his point of view, and the view of many others, he has sacrificed for the greater good because he knows people have the right to know what the government is doing in their name. And legal, or not, he saw what the government was doing as a crime against the people and our rights.

For the sake of argument -- This should be called The Snowden Principle.

Guerilla
07-22-2013, 05:46 PM
This is how I see it. Was Harriet Tubman looked down on for breaking the law? Or was she praised for rescuing slaves and fighting for the greater good?

Mainecoons
07-22-2013, 07:34 PM
Absolutely. Snowden did the world a great service. Government is out of control everywhere and needs to be reined in. Severely.

Peter1469
07-22-2013, 07:59 PM
I am amused that other nations are complaining about US spying; when they all do it.

jillian
07-22-2013, 08:00 PM
I am amused that other nations are complaining about US spying; when they all do it.

no one's supposed to talk about it!

Chris
07-22-2013, 09:23 PM
I am amused that other nations are complaining about US spying; when they all do it.

On themselves? I think I would expect it of a country like North Korea or even China.

lynn
07-23-2013, 10:29 AM
It would seem that the only bargaining tool Snowden has if the U.S. is more technically advanced than other nations in obtaining mass data which posses a threat to them in protecting their information. Spying and gathering information is nothing new and everybody does it with the stipulation you don't get caught doing it.

Chris
07-24-2013, 06:29 AM
Snowden Gets Whistleblower Award in Germany (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/snowden-gets-whistleblower-award-in-germany/483527.html#ixzz2Zxg6yY5M)


Fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has become the winner of this year's Whistleblower Award established by German human rights organizations, the German branch of Transparency International said in a statement.

"This year's winner of the Whistleblower Award is Edward Snowden," the statement posted on TI's Germany website Monday said.

The award, established in 1999, is sponsored by the Association of German Scientists (VDW) and the German branch of the International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms (IALANA).

A VDW spokesperson told RIA Novosti on Monday that the award money, amounting to 3,000 euros, would be passed to Snowden through his representatives — either a lawyer or a "friendly" organization....

lynn
07-24-2013, 07:33 AM
Snowden Gets Whistleblower Award in Germany (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/snowden-gets-whistleblower-award-in-germany/483527.html#ixzz2Zxg6yY5M)


Lol, that is too funny

Ransom
07-24-2013, 08:56 PM
no one's supposed to talk about it!

You would be but not for a (D) in office. Your anti-war, anti-surveillance, anti-patriot Act, anti-Gitmo prison dog and pony shows will return with an (R).

TheInternet
07-24-2013, 09:37 PM
Chris,
I'm glad you drive home the point frequently about positive law and natural law. It's an important concept that more people need to understand, myself included. Looking at the law through that lens is helpful.

fyrenza
07-24-2013, 09:43 PM
It was always The Law ~

our Constitution was written to protect us from runaway gov,

but we were FOOL enough to keep electing lawyers,
that will twist and turn EVERY WORD to their own devices.

There IS a "law" that says our gov is NOT allowed to RULE us/US like some dictator;

Snowden stood for ^THAT^ law, imho.

Chris
07-24-2013, 09:44 PM
Chris,
I'm glad you drive home the point frequently about positive law and natural law. It's an important concept that more people need to understand, myself included. Looking at the law through that lens is helpful.

For a great read on the topic of natural law see Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty (http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/ethics.asp) free online.

Chris
07-24-2013, 09:45 PM
It was always The Law ~

our Constitution was written to protect us from runaway gov,

but we were FOOL enough to keep electing lawyers,
that will twist and turn EVERY WORD to their own devices.

There IS a "law" that says our gov is NOT allowed to RULE us/US like some dictator;

Snowden stood for ^THAT^ law, imho.

Perhaps unwittingly, but yes.

jillian
07-24-2013, 09:55 PM
In another thread, some ask sure it's the law but is it just? The question alone separates out two concepts of law, positive law and natural law. Positive law is posited or legislated law, man-made law, rule of men. Natural law is what is just given man's nature, rights inherent in who we are, rule of law.

So what is just despite law regarding The Snowden Principle (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/snowden-principle_b_3441237.html):

why are you concerned with what is 'just' when it comes to the guy who was so worried about governmental openness that he ran to russia and sought asylum in every banana republic known to man.

you were sure a fan of legal positivism when it came to trayvon martin.

fyrenza
07-24-2013, 09:57 PM
"unwittingly"?

I think not. The man was a senior intelligence analyst, eh?

jillian
07-24-2013, 09:57 PM
Chris,
I'm glad you drive home the point frequently about positive law and natural law. It's an important concept that more people need to understand, myself included. Looking at the law through that lens is helpful.

looking at 'the law' through that lens is absurd except as a philosophical exercise.

reality is that if government doesn't enforce your rights, you don't have them.

ask nelson mandela about that.

TheInternet
07-24-2013, 10:03 PM
looking at 'the law' through that lens is absurd except as a philosophical exercise.

reality is that if government doesn't enforce your rights, you don't have them.

ask nelson mandela about that.

Laws should reflect societal norms. Not be random bullshit.

Chris
07-24-2013, 10:10 PM
"unwittingly"?

I think not. The man was a senior intelligence analyst, eh?

Fancy tittle. He was fairly low level.

fyrenza
07-24-2013, 10:10 PM
Laws should reflect societal norms. Not be random bullshit.

Does the word "IS" mean "is?"

NOT TO A GOOD LAWYER, it doesn't!

In fact, to the lawyers, EVERYTHING is up for interpretation, ESPECIALLY the definitions of simple WORDS!

Poor thangs aren't bright enough to actually Make Up a NEW word,

it's SO much easier to just yank the rug out from under everyone,
and REdefine everything.

Sad, but true.

Chris
07-24-2013, 10:12 PM
looking at 'the law' through that lens is absurd except as a philosophical exercise.

reality is that if government doesn't enforce your rights, you don't have them.

ask nelson mandela about that.

It goes without saying that a leftist legal positivist like you would deny natural law and natural rights.

Guerilla
07-24-2013, 11:02 PM
Here's an article (http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/kohlberg.htm) on the 6 stages of development.




Stage 1 - Obedience and Punishment
The earliest stage of moral development is especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, children see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.

Stage 2 - Individualism and Exchange
At this stage of moral development, children account for individual points of view and judge actions based on how they serve individual needs. In the Heinz dilemma, children argued that the best course of action was the choice that best-served Heinz’s needs. Reciprocity is possible at this point in moral development, but only if it serves one's own interests.
Level 2. Conventional Morality

Stage 3 - Interpersonal Relationships
Often referred to as the "good boy-good girl" orientation, this stage of moral development is focused on living up to social expectations and roles. There is an emphasis on conformity, being "nice," and consideration of how choices influence relationships.

Stage 4 - Maintaining Social Order
At this stage of moral development, people begin to consider society as a whole when making judgments. The focus is on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty and respecting authority.
Level 3. Postconventional Morality

Stage 5 - Social Contract and Individual Rights
At this stage, people begin to account for the differing values, opinions and beliefs of other people. Rules of law are important for maintaining a society, but members of the society should agree upon these standards.

Stage 6 - Universal Principles
Kolhberg’s final level of moral reasoning is based upon universal ethical principles and abstract reasoning. At this stage, people follow these internalized principles of justice, even if they conflict with laws and rules.
Snowden was operating on stage 6 of moral development. It seems those supporting Snowden also operate at that stage, while those opposing him are at stage 3 or 4. Just something to consider..

Chris
07-25-2013, 07:55 AM
Here's an article (http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/kohlberg.htm) on the 6 stages of development.

Snowden was operating on stage 6 of moral development. It seems those supporting Snowden also operate at that stage, while those opposing him are at stage 3 or 4. Just something to consider..

I think we try to. Great post!!