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Common
07-23-2013, 10:02 PM
I found the numbers surprising, not as many atheists as we thought.

Though the number of Americans who believe that human beings evolved without God's influence has increased since 2004, the percentage may still prove surprising to some.

According to a YouGov poll, (http://today.yougov.com/news/2013/07/22/belief-in-evolution-up-since-2004/) only 21% of Americans believe that human beings evolved without the involvement of God, and 25% of those surveyed said, "Human beings evolved but God guided this process."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/23/evolution-god_n_3640658.html

jillian
07-23-2013, 10:11 PM
I found the numbers surprising, not as many atheists as we thought.

Though the number of Americans who believe that human beings evolved without God's influence has increased since 2004, the percentage may still prove surprising to some.

According to a YouGov poll, (http://today.yougov.com/news/2013/07/22/belief-in-evolution-up-since-2004/) only 21% of Americans believe that human beings evolved without the involvement of God, and 25% of those surveyed said, "Human beings evolved but God guided this process."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/23/evolution-god_n_3640658.html

i'm curious. if the results surprised you, what did you think they would be?

Common
07-23-2013, 10:17 PM
i'm curious. if the results surprised you, what did you think they would be?

I thought more would claim to be atheists

jillian
07-23-2013, 10:25 PM
I thought more would claim to be atheists

i don't know very many atheists. i know a lot more agnostics and even deists.

last time i heard a poll on this subject, they said 70% of people in this country didn't believe in evolution. now *that* kind of surprised me.

Mister D
07-23-2013, 10:29 PM
This may surprise you too.

Half of British adults do not believe in evolution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/evolution), with at least 22% preferring the theories of creationism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/creationism) or intelligent design to explain how the world came about, according to a survey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism

Common
07-23-2013, 10:57 PM
This may surprise you too.

Half of British adults do not believe in evolution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/evolution), with at least 22% preferring the theories of creationism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/creationism) or intelligent design to explain how the world came about, according to a survey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism

Mr D, Jillian its just like alot of other things the "FEW" make so much noise and annoy everyone constantly it has an effect that makes people believe they actually have more support than they really do.
Kinda like the faaaaaaaaaar right teaparty

Chris
07-23-2013, 11:22 PM
I thought more would claim to be atheists

There's no connection between evolution and atheism.

Chris
07-23-2013, 11:24 PM
Mr D, Jillian its just like alot of other things the "FEW" make so much noise and annoy everyone constantly it has an effect that makes people believe they actually have more support than they really do.
Kinda like the faaaaaaaaaar right teaparty

And what has the tea party to do with this other than posting inflammatory noise?

Chris
07-23-2013, 11:30 PM
This may surprise you too.

Half of British adults do not believe in evolution (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/evolution), with at least 22% preferring the theories of creationism (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/creationism) or intelligent design to explain how the world came about, according to a survey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-creationism

Another problem with such surveys is whether respondents understand evolution or creationism or even God. Moreover the surveyors are confused asking if people believe in evolution, it's science not religion.

Alif Qadr
07-24-2013, 09:15 AM
I found the numbers surprising, not as many atheists as we thought.

Though the number of Americans who believe that human beings evolved without God's influence has increased since 2004, the percentage may still prove surprising to some.

According to a YouGov poll, (http://today.yougov.com/news/2013/07/22/belief-in-evolution-up-since-2004/) only 21% of Americans believe that human beings evolved without the involvement of God, and 25% of those surveyed said, "Human beings evolved but God guided this process."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/23/evolution-god_n_3640658.html

The poll results listed comes as no surprise being that we live in a world built upon opposition to Al Fitr (one of the attributes of Allah). The wickedly wise scientists of this world have always come up with ways to encourage the peoples of arD (Earth) to engender hatred towards Allah, righteousness and a lifestyle of righteous conduct. Why do you think that the RCC and many of its children have used cruelty, oppression and tulmult to represent Allah and what righteousness is? None of this is happenstance. It is all a deliberate, contrived and planned course of action(s). In this, I also include what some who call themselves Muslims have done and still do. Righteousness is righteousness and wickedness is wickedness and neither is the same as the other. This is one of the reasons why Isa prophesied that there is no luke war in the kingdom of Allah, you are either hot or cold.

Chris
07-24-2013, 09:17 AM
The poll results listed comes as no surprise being that we live in a world built upon opposition to Al Fitr (one of the attributes of Allah). The wickedly wise scientists of this world have always come up with ways to encourage the peoples of arD (Earth) to engender hatred towards Allah, righteousness and a lifestyle of righteous conduct. Why do you think that the RCC and many of its children have used cruelty, oppression and tulmult to represent Allah and what righteousness is? None of this is happenstance. It is all a deliberate, contrived and planned course of action(s). In this, I also include what some who call themselves Muslims have done and still do. Righteousness is righteousness and wickedness is wickedness and neither is the same as the other. This is one of the reasons why Isa prophesied that there is no luke war in the kingdom of Allah, you are either hot or cold.

Science has nothing to say about religion. Well, unless religion/religious make scientific claims, which is rare.

Alif Qadr
07-24-2013, 09:43 AM
Science has nothing to say about religion. Well, unless religion/religious make scientific claims, which is rare.

This is one of the problems, people seem to disassociated. When I used the term scientists, I was referring to what you would call theologians, metaphysicists, etc. I am not talking about what is commonly referred to as "scientists" in Ummat Gharib. Those who you refer to as scientists are nothing more than on the level of first graders in an honest scope of existences, knowledge and the ability to manifest that wich they stumble and fumble upon. I was not referring to them at all being that they are completely irrelevant in the full scope of any discussion about civilization. In all honesty, they are nothing but a destructive force and it is through the destruction of life that they learn. Only fools and depraved persons follow and exult such ones.

Also, these types also play a part into the engendering of the hatred of Allah. Such have replaced your ministers, preachers, priests, rabbis, etc so the goal has not changed. This is a fulfillment of one of the prophecies found in Taurat that "Though you sit upon the throne of the Most High Ilan, posing as the Most High Ilan, yet you shall be brought low to the sides of the pit of Jahannam (Hell)." In the leaders of your world's doing, they prove that there is no ilan but Allah. He always has been and always will be. So regardless to the muling of your "learned" and "wise" men and women, everything that they have done, are doing and will do, has already been seen long before the thought arose in them and before their very existence.

Chris
07-24-2013, 09:52 AM
This is one of the problems, people seem to disassociated. When I used the term scientists, I was referring to what you would call theologians, metaphysicists, etc. I am not talking about what is commonly referred to as "scientists" in Ummat Gharib. Those who you refer to as scientists are nothing more than on the level of first graders in an honest scope of existences, knowledge and the ability to manifest that wich they stumble and fumble upon. I was not referring to them at all being that they are completely irrelevant in the full scope of any discussion about civilization. In all honesty, they are nothing but a destructive force and it is through the destruction of life that they learn. Only fools and depraved persons follow and exult such people.

Huh?

`Come, we shall have some fun now!' thought Alice. `I'm glad they've begun asking riddles.--I believe I can guess that,' she added aloud.

`Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?' said the March Hare.

`Exactly so,' said Alice.

`Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

`I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'

`It IS the same thing with you,' said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn't much.

~Lewis Carroll

jillian
07-24-2013, 10:35 AM
Science has nothing to say about religion. Well, unless religion/religious make scientific claims, which is rare.

rare, unless one includes creationism.

jillian
07-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Mr D, Jillian its just like alot of other things the "FEW" make so much noise and annoy everyone constantly it has an effect that makes people believe they actually have more support than they really do.
Kinda like the faaaaaaaaaar right teaparty

There is a truth to that. The more noise fringe groups make, the more one thinks of them as representing the majority.

Chris
07-24-2013, 10:44 AM
rare, unless one includes creationism.

Creationism, including Creation Science and Intelligent Design, makes no testable scientific claims.

For example, creation scientist Dr. Henry Morris claimed that the craters of the moon were caused by a cosmic battle with Satan. How do you test that?

The case of ID is interesting. One of its main proponents, Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, accepts what he calls the three pillars of evolution: mutation, selection, inheritance. But some biological structures are just too complex to be explained. Therefore, he concludes, it must be God's work. OK, how do you test that?

jillian
07-24-2013, 10:51 AM
Creationism, including Creation Science and Intelligent Design, makes no testable scientific claims.

For example, creation scientist Dr. Henry Morris claimed that the craters of the moon were caused by a cosmic battle with Satan. How do you test that?

The case of ID is interesting. One of its main proponents, Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, accepts what he calls the three pillars of evolution: mutation, selection, inheritance. But some biological structures are just too complex to be explained. Therefore, he concludes, it must be God's work. OK, how do you test that?

if 'creationism' makes no scientific claims, why is the religious right so desperate to see it taught in science classes?

http://www.icr.org/article/teachers-can-teach-creation-science-classroom/

http://gawker.com/dad-mad-at-school-for-teaching-young-earth-creationism-482430494

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/hundreds-of-voucher-schools-teach-creationism-in-science-classes

we'll wait.

Chris
07-24-2013, 11:03 AM
if 'creationism' makes no scientific claims, why is the religious right so desperate to see it taught in science classes?

http://www.icr.org/article/teachers-can-teach-creation-science-classroom/

http://gawker.com/dad-mad-at-school-for-teaching-young-earth-creationism-482430494

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/hundreds-of-voucher-schools-teach-creationism-in-science-classes

we'll wait.

Because many Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc believe in it.

jillian
07-24-2013, 11:50 AM
Because many Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc believe in it.

jews and muslims are not the ones pushing it. what all three push when they are "orthodox" or "fundamentalist" is school vouchers so they can send their kids to parochial school for free.

i don't recall ever seeing orthodox muslims and jews demanding that creationism be taught.

jews, other than fundies, aren't literalists, but see the bible as a morality tale... with the stories (many based on real events) used to convey a means of living within the rules... to an unruly desert people. kaballah takes it further, seeing the bible as basically the kids' version of what really exists... and only after much study, does one get closer and closer to the "truth" or some type of nirvana or nothingness, called "ein-sof"...

Mister D
07-24-2013, 11:58 AM
jews and muslims are not the ones pushing it. what all three push when they are "orthodox" or "fundamentalist" is school vouchers so they can send their kids to parochial school for free.

i don't recall ever seeing orthodox muslims and jews demanding that creationism be taught.

jews, other than fundies, aren't literalists, but see the bible as a morality tale... with the stories (many based on real events) used to convey a means of living within the rules... to an unruly desert people. kaballah takes it further, seeing the bible as basically the kids' version of what really exists... and only after much study, does one get closer and closer to the "truth" or some type of nirvana or nothingness, called "ein-sof"...

Jillian, believing in creation does not require bibilical literalism and most Christians aren't literalists. You'd know that if you weren't constantly allowing your partisanship and biases to intrude on...well everything you talk about.

Chris
07-24-2013, 12:05 PM
jews and muslims are not the ones pushing it. what all three push when they are "orthodox" or "fundamentalist" is school vouchers so they can send their kids to parochial school for free.

i don't recall ever seeing orthodox muslims and jews demanding that creationism be taught.

jews, other than fundies, aren't literalists, but see the bible as a morality tale... with the stories (many based on real events) used to convey a means of living within the rules... to an unruly desert people. kaballah takes it further, seeing the bible as basically the kids' version of what really exists... and only after much study, does one get closer and closer to the "truth" or some type of nirvana or nothingness, called "ein-sof"...

Yea, I don't know about Jews so much in terms of pushing it. Muslims push it harder than Christians.

roadmaster
07-24-2013, 03:11 PM
jews, other than fundies, Who are you calling fundies??? Starting your anti-Christian rants again?

nic34
07-24-2013, 03:28 PM
God created the universe, and it has evolved naturally ever since.

Now define God.

Chris
07-24-2013, 03:32 PM
God created the universe, and it has evolved naturally ever since.

Now define God.

You just did define Him. That would basically be your Deist God--the Laws of Nature and Nature's God. --Though I'm sure some will dispute that latter bit.

jillian
07-24-2013, 04:09 PM
Who are you calling fundies??? Starting your anti-Christian rants again?

i have never said anything 'anti-christian'. nor do i rant. i don't care what you believe. i just want you to keep it away from my government and my kid.

if that's an anti-christian rant, you're beyond redemption.

as for fundie... that's anyone who thinks the bible or any other religious writing is intended to be LITERAL... you know what i mean? hmmmmm?

Mister D
07-24-2013, 04:10 PM
i have never said anything 'anti-christian'. nor do i rant. i don't care what you believe. i just want you to keep it away from my government and my kid.

if that's an anti-christian rant, you're beyond redemption.

as for fundie... that's anyone who thinks the bible or any other religious writing is intended to be LITERAL... you know what i mean? hmmmmm?

Obviously, much of it is to be taken quite literally. So, no, I don't know what you mean.

roadmaster
07-24-2013, 04:11 PM
i have never said anything 'anti-christian'. nor do i rant. i don't care what you believe. i just want you to keep it away from my government and my kid.

if that's an anti-christian rant, you're beyond redemption.

as for fundie... that's anyone who thinks the bible or any other religious writing is intended to be LITERAL... you know what i mean? hmmmmm?

It's anti-Christian and yes I do believe the Bible to be the living Word of God.

Chris
07-24-2013, 04:15 PM
i have never said anything 'anti-christian'. nor do i rant. i don't care what you believe. i just want you to keep it away from my government and my kid.

if that's an anti-christian rant, you're beyond redemption.

as for fundie... that's anyone who thinks the bible or any other religious writing is intended to be LITERAL... you know what i mean? hmmmmm?

Not true, jill, not true. I see what roadmaster is seeing.

And, BTW, Fundamentalists were the ones wrote "The Fundamentals," a series of essays, back in the early 1900s, an affirmation of Reformed Protestant faith.

jillian
07-24-2013, 04:16 PM
It's anti-Christian and yes I do believe the Bible to be the living Word of God.

yeah, but you're an extremist.... so have a chip on your shoulder.

how is not wanting your religion to govern this country's legislation (when we aren't a theocracy, thank G-d) anti-christian? it's pro first amendment. you remember what that is, right?

that's nice... believe what you wish. now leave the rest of us alone.

and please tell me where in the bible jesus told you to hate gays and disdain jews

Mister D
07-24-2013, 04:18 PM
yeah, but you're an extremist.... so have a chip on your shoulder.

that's nice... believe what you wish. now leave the rest of us alone.

and please tell me where in the bible jesus told you to hate gays and disdain jews

Wow talk about extreme! :shocked:

Jillian, you have a chip on yoru shoulder.

She does leave you alone.

She hates Jews and gays? Why do you hate Christians? See, I can do that too.

roadmaster
07-24-2013, 04:19 PM
yeah, but you're an extremist.... so have a chip on your shoulder.

that's nice... believe what you wish. now leave the rest of us alone.

and please tell me where in the bible jesus told you to hate gays and disdain jews
You started it by claiming people were anti-Jewish. No I won't leave you alone.

nic34
07-24-2013, 04:22 PM
yeah, but you're an extremist.... so have a chip on your shoulder.

how is not wanting your religion to govern this country's legislation (when we aren't a theocracy, thank G-d) anti-christian? it's pro first amendment. you remember what that is, right?

that's nice... believe what you wish. now leave the rest of us alone.

and please tell me where in the bible jesus told you to hate gays and disdain jews

Careful, they have a club here.....

Mister D
07-24-2013, 04:23 PM
Careful, they have a club here.....

Who does?

nic34
07-24-2013, 04:24 PM
You just did define Him. That would basically be your Deist God--the Laws of Nature and Nature's God. --Though I'm sure some will dispute that latter bit.

No I didn't.

God could be another highly advanced life form. Think about it......

Mister D
07-24-2013, 04:25 PM
No I didn't.

God could be another highly advanced life form. Think about it......

Then he wouldn't be God. lol

jillian
07-24-2013, 04:28 PM
Then he wouldn't be God. lol

just a title given by men

jillian
07-24-2013, 04:28 PM
You started it by claiming people were anti-Jewish. No I won't leave you alone.

i said you had "disdain" for jews. you do.

and, again, your religious beliefs aren't and shouldn't be the basis for our laws... no matter how much you stamp your feet.

again, thank heaven for the first amendment to protect us from people like you.

Mister D
07-24-2013, 04:32 PM
just a title given by men

Which you spell G_d for some reason. :laugh: Oh Jillian you make such a fool of yourself sometimes.

Chris
07-24-2013, 04:36 PM
Careful, they have a club here.....

Why do you project your leftist club on others?

roadmaster
07-24-2013, 04:37 PM
i said you had "disdain" for jews. you do.

and, again, your religious beliefs aren't and shouldn't be the basis for our laws... no matter how much you stamp your feet.

again, thank heaven for the first amendment to protect us from people like you.

Yes the ones who don't have faith but claim to be Jewish and try to get sympathy like they are offended if someone says anything against them or Israel. At least Grassroots makes it clear he doesn't believe in God. You use "oh I am a Jew" like I could care less.

Alif Qadr
07-25-2013, 12:45 PM
yeah, but you're an extremist.... so have a chip on your shoulder.

how is not wanting your religion to govern this country's legislation (when we aren't a theocracy, thank G-d) anti-christian? it's pro first amendment. you remember what that is, right?

that's nice... believe what you wish. now leave the rest of us alone.

and please tell me where in the bible jesus told you to hate gays and disdain jews

Jillian,
Whether you know it or not, religion has been used as a guideline from the beginning of the United States. The laws, including the format of the Constitution for the United States was inspired by one Thomas Locke and many other theologians or the Christian persuasions.
When Congress convened, it used to begin with a prayer section. The basis of most, if not all of the procedures and practices come from the Bible, which is why it is used in swearing in sessions as well as in the courts of law in the land, until recently that is.

By the way Chris, the God of Nature and Nature's God of whom you speak is the same as the God of the Bible.

So as you see, religious doctrine is ingrained into the fabric of The United States and it was fashioned to be this way.

It is unconstitutional to establish an official religion for the United States but that does not preclude religion from being used as the basis of laws being that religion is the basis of the foundation of this country. Even Benjamin Franklin stated that virtuous people preserve freedom and non-virtuous people lose the same.

Chris
07-25-2013, 01:00 PM
Jillian,
Whether you know it or not, religion has been used as a guideline from the beginning of the United States. The laws, including the format of the Constitution for the United States was inspired by one Thomas Locke and many other theologians or the Christian persuasions.
When Congress convened, it used to begin with a prayer section. The basis of most, if not all of the procedures and practices come from the Bible, which is why it is used in swearing in sessions as well as in the courts of law in the land, until recently that is.

By the way Chris, the God of Nature and Nature's God of whom you speak is the same as the God of the Bible.

So as you see, religious doctrine is ingrained into the fabric of The United States and it was fashioned to be this way.

It is unconstitutional to establish an official religion for the United States but that does not preclude religion from being used as the basis of laws being that religion is the basis of the foundation of this country. Even Benjamin Franklin stated that virtuous people preserve freedom and non-virtuous people lose the same.


By the way Chris, the God of Nature and Nature's God of whom you speak is the same as the God of the Bible.

Actually, alif, it's not, it's the Deist God. That is how Deists wrote at the time.


...Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

...Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

@ http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Alif Qadr
07-25-2013, 01:39 PM
Actually, alif, it's not, it's the Deist God. That is how Deists wrote at the time.



@ http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

I disagree being that the Bible was used and even Thomas Jefferson who helped to pen the Constitution and formulate the nation, utilized the Bible. Besides, the only knowledge of God is from the the Bible: Taurat wa Injil so the basis of the existence of any divine supreme being comes from said book. The only one who I can emphatically state did not believe in Bible was Thomas Paine, all of the rest gained their comprehension of a divine supreme being from the Bible as well as Al Kitaab[some (Holy Qur'an)];George Washington and others were Masons of the highest order which is a Thirty-third Degree Mason who receive Al Kitaab at that point.

Chris
07-25-2013, 02:21 PM
I disagree being that the Bible was used and even Thomas Jefferson who helped to pen the Constitution and formulate the nation, utilized the Bible. Besides, the only knowledge of God is from the the Bible: Taurat wa Injil so the basis of the existence of any divine supreme being comes from said book. The only one who I can emphatically state did not believe in Bible was Thomas Paine, all of the rest gained their comprehension of a divine supreme being from the Bible as well as Al Kitaab[some (Holy Qur'an)];George Washington and others were Masons of the highest order which is a Thirty-third Degree Mason who receive Al Kitaab at that point.

Jefferson virtually cribbed the Declaration from John Locke. Do learn some history.

Chris
07-25-2013, 02:38 PM
Jefferson virtually cribbed the Declaration from John Locke. Do learn some history.

I will add that, my reading of the history of those times is Deists and Christians were open to each other. Their beliefs didn't differ all that much, mainly that Deists believed in a God that got the ball rolling, so to speak, and then sat back and watched, though He, Providence, could be asked to lend a Hand, so to speak, while Christians believed He was personally involved. I don't doubt that the language, Laws of Nature and Nature's God, were neutral enough that Christians, as they do now, and you, Alif, do, see it as reference to the God of their and even your belief. And I have no issue with that. Who knows, maybe Nature's God is the God of Nature, er, I mean the God Who created Nature. :-)

Adelaide
07-25-2013, 08:10 PM
There's no connection between evolution and atheism.

I think there kind of is a connection to some extent, because Atheists are never going to argue that God created the earth and everything else.

Chris
07-25-2013, 08:42 PM
I think there kind of is a connection to some extent, because Atheists are never going to argue that God created the earth and everything else.

Nor do all accept evolution.

Ivan88
07-31-2013, 02:51 PM
Atheists are deists in that there being no god is their god.

Besides that, the human social ego is the god of most people including atheists.

If America followed "natures's God" we would not have been involved in 200 years of constant wars of aggression that continue as of now.

Around 1857, Prime Minister of Great Britain declared that the British people worshipped Molech, the god of war, not Jesus Christ, the God of mother nature.

And, the fact that we are still arguing about Darwin's evolution hypothesis proves that we don't know the Divine Message of the Book of Genesis.

Chris
07-31-2013, 02:59 PM
Deists believe in God, just not a personal one. And they believe you could petition and rely on God: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Ivan88
07-31-2013, 03:13 PM
If we don't overcome out own gods - our social egos, we cannot really be following "nature's God".

He told us, via Moses, to have no god before Him. But, since Adam, mankind has been putting their own ego/mind ahead of the Intent of the God of Life and Love.

And, as He warned, the wages of putting our own minds over His Word, His Intent, His Will and Pleasure is death; not physical death, but eternal death for our personality - totally exterminated.