What was Sodom's sin?

[Mister D]

Most Christians have interpreted the sin of Sodom to have been homosexuality but the text is not clear on that point. The citizens of Sodom do demand "to know" Lot's guests so there are explicit references to homosexual behavior but is the real sin the intended homosexual act or the mistreatment of strangers or a lack of hospitality? It's an interesting question. What do you all think?

[Conley]

Most Christians have interpreted the sin of Sodom to have been homosexuality but the text is not clear on that point. The citizens of Sodom do demand "to know" Lot's guests so there are explicit references to homosexual behavior but is the real sin the intended homosexual act or the mistreatment of strangers or a lack of hospitality? It's an interesting question. What do you all think?


If you don't mind, can you post relevant passages? I think so much of the Bible and Christianity is manipulated to serve Man's interests. There are many ways to interpret some of the texts and some have no problem using it for personal gain.

[Mister D]

You don't have a bible? :o >:( ;D

I pasted Genesis Chapter 19 below. The story begins in Chapter 18 when God tells Abraham he plans to destroy the cities of the plain for their wickedness.

20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

See, it's not at all clear what it is that the cities of the plain have done.

-----

Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”

18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords,[b] please! 19 Your[c] servant has found favor in your[d] eyes, and you[e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.[f])

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

[Conley]

In general terms, i feel as a Christian we are taught to love our brother, treat all as we would want to be treated, and not to judge. Judgment is God's role, not ours.

I can understand if people have issues with homosexuality, but I think it's more than a little presumptuous to conclude that you know what God wants. To me sinning is causing harm to others or one's self, and I don't see that present in homosexuality. There are plenty of devoted homosexuals who do not practice promiscuity, etc.

Anyway, sorry to take the thread off topic right as it starts....

[Conley]

You don't have a bible? :o >:( ;D



I wasn't sure if you were a KJV guy or not ;)

[Conley]

to me the quoted passage sounds more like an indictment of rape than it does of homosexuality. it reads like a potential gang rape :o i don't think i had read that before...i grew up anglican so we didn't get a lot of that hell fire stuff 8)

[Mister D]

In general terms, i feel as a Christian we are taught to love our brother, treat all as we would want to be treated, and not to judge. Judgment is God's role, not ours.

I can understand if people have issues with homosexuality, but I think it's more than a little presumptuous to conclude that you know what God wants. To me sinning is causing harm to others or one's self, and I don't see that present in homosexuality. There are plenty of devoted homosexuals who do not practice promiscuity, etc.

Anyway, sorry to take the thread off topic right as it starts....


Not at all. That's kind of what we're talking about although I think that in this case the interpretation was an honest one. I just don't know if it's correct. It could very well be that the admonition in this story was understood differently by the ancient Hebrews than it has been their descendants including we of the Christian faith.

Homosexuality is explicitly condemned in other parts of the Bible but the attempted homosexual gang rape in Genesis may actually be just a detail.

[Mister D]

to me the quoted passage sounds more like an indictment of rape than it does of homosexuality. it reads like a potential gang rape :o i don't think i had read that before...i grew up anglican so we didn't get a lot of that hell fire stuff 8)


It is an attempted gang rape. The Bible can get pretty horrific. ;)

[Conley]

I know of that well known passage about man will not lie down with man, but i thought in other places the Bible mentions homosexual activity without much of a protest. I thought it was pretty common back then and didn't have a social stigma?

[Conley]

to me the quoted passage sounds more like an indictment of rape than it does of homosexuality. it reads like a potential gang rape :o i don't think i had read that before...i grew up anglican so we didn't get a lot of that hell fire stuff 8)


It is an attempted gang rape. The Bible can get pretty horrific. ;)


OK ;D So What Was Sodom's Sin? Allowing/encouraging gang rape. That's my final answer. 8)

[Mister D]

I know of that well known passage about man will not lie down with man, but i thought in other places the Bible mentions homosexual activity without much of a protest. I thought it was pretty common back then and didn't have a social stigma?


Depends on the society. For example, it didn't have much of a stigma in Greece and was openly practiced in some parts. In some cases, this was due to the separation between the sexes and other social customs that artificially separated the sexes. In Rome, it had a stigma long before Christianity. There weren't any laws against it but homosexuals were sometimes mocked as unmanly. Effeminate homosexuals, for example, were referred to by a Latin term that literally means "a little Greek". ;D In ancient Israel I think it was forbidden by Mosaic law.

[Mister D]

to me the quoted passage sounds more like an indictment of rape than it does of homosexuality. it reads like a potential gang rape :o i don't think i had read that before...i grew up anglican so we didn't get a lot of that hell fire stuff 8)


It is an attempted gang rape. The Bible can get pretty horrific. ;)


OK ;D So What Was Sodom's Sin? Allowing/encouraging gang rape. That's my final answer. 8)


I was just posing it for discussion. I don't know. I grew up thinking it was homosexuality and other sexually immoral acts but that may not be the case. I've been reading about the OT lately. Very interesting stuff. The ancient Hebrews may have understood this differently than later generations.

[Conley]

a little greek rofl, that's hilarious

ok, see for some reason i thought it was quite acceptable in ancient rome. imo so much of this stuff gets so distorted by historians and religious leaders with modern-day agendas.

this is an interesting discussion imo, thanks for starting it ;D

[MMC]

I was going to ask which version.....

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? [b][color=black]Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

From the beginning we know the two Travelers have come to destroy the City.....upon arrival there is no other dispostion expounded on. Stories abound that most of mankind had reverted back to damn near beasts. Which by the way can be referenced by other religions and ancient civilizations with insriptions and or wiritings.Here we see they talk about having sex with those that they do not know. Men on men. there are other sources that say man was not only doing this but eating their own kind and killing anything that moved including each other. Sacrifices to other religions which required eating the heart of man. Or the brain. For percieved power. Women as well.

Other sources not into the religion believe these were not angels but extraterrestrials. Blinding those with what in order not to be able to find or see the building or structure they were in?

Caught up in what that will sweep them up until they get to Zoar. I will start with this my friend......

[Mister D]

a little greek rofl, that's hilarious

ok, see for some reason i thought it was quite acceptable in ancient rome. imo so much of this stuff gets so distorted by historians and religious leaders with modern-day agendas.

this is an interesting discussion imo, thanks for starting it ;D


I don't think it had the same kind of stigma in ancient Rome that we see today. For example, gay men weren't harassed or beaten. Granted, the latter happens very rarely in our society.

You will definitely see Rome portrayed as a homosexual friendly society on Wikipedia and this mistaken notion plays a part in homosexual activism. What I mean by that is that they sometimes try to portray homophobia as a specifically Christian or at any rate religious phenomenon which it is not. They try to do this by pointing out how everyone just did what they wanted and everything was accepted until Christianity came along. It's bologna.

[Mister D]

I was going to ask which version.....

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? [b][color=black]Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

From the beginning we know the two Travelers have come to destroy the City.....upon arrival there is no other dispostion expounded on. Stories abound that most of mankind had reverted back to damn near beasts. Which by the way can be referenced by other religions and ancient civilizations with insriptions and or wiritings.Here we see they talk about having sex with those that they do not know. Men on men. there are other sources that say man was not only doing this but eating their own kind and killing anything that moved including each other. Sacrifices to other religions which required eating the heart of man. Or the brain. For percieved power. Women as well.

Other sources not into the religion believe these were not angels but extraterrestrials. Blinding those with what in order not to be able to find or see the building or structure they were in?

Caught up in what that will sweep them up until they get to Zoar. I will start with this my friend......


I don't even know what version I posted. I just did Google search for Genesis 19. :-[

Yes, some sects do believe humanity reverted to such a state. Certainly before the flood.

I ain't addressing the extra-terrestrials! ;D :o ::)

[MMC]

Why not my friend..... >:( one possibly cannot think we are the shit and there is no other life out there. Could be other humns somewhere else. Unable to even make contact. I don't think we should close off this aspect when it comes to the Hebrews History Book..... ??? Nor the time period! :-\ :)

[freecell]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.

[Conley]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


If he goes to jail and then gets out, all is forgiven?? He gets a clean slate? That might be how we are supposed to be but in all honesty I could not forgive something like that. And also I would consider myself better than someone like that as well, I am human after all...

[MMC]

I was going to ask which version.....

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? [b][color=black]Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

From the beginning we know the two Travelers have come to destroy the City.....upon arrival there is no other dispostion expounded on. Stories abound that most of mankind had reverted back to damn near beasts. Which by the way can be referenced by other religions and ancient civilizations with insriptions and or wiritings.Here we see they talk about having sex with those that they do not know. Men on men. there are other sources that say man was not only doing this but eating their own kind and killing anything that moved including each other. Sacrifices to other religions which required eating the heart of man. Or the brain. For percieved power. Women as well.

Other sources not into the religion believe these were not angels but extraterrestrials. Blinding those with what in order not to be able to find or see the building or structure they were in?

Caught up in what that will sweep them up until they get to Zoar. I will start with this my friend......


I don't even know what version I posted. I just did Google search for Genesis 19. :-[

Yes, some sects do believe humanity reverted to such a state. Certainly before the flood.

I ain't addressing the extra-terrestrials! ;D :o ::)


Which Flood?

[spunkloaf]

Most Christians have interpreted the sin of Sodom to have been homosexuality but the text is not clear on that point. The citizens of Sodom do demand "to know" Lot's guests so there are explicit references to homosexual behavior but is the real sin the intended homosexual act or the mistreatment of strangers or a lack of hospitality? It's an interesting question. What do you all think?


My best guess was that it was less of a demonstration of actual homosexuality and more of a display of humility and punishment by a twisted society. I think it comes down to sexism. The worst shame of a man to be likened to a woman. Therefore the best way to humiliate a man is to treat him like a woman, and the best way to accomplish that sort of treatment is to rape a man as a woman would be raped--even if the act is vulgar, unorthodox and inappropriate. A man could accomplish the task of humiliation, degradation, punishment, and could get himself off all in the same act.

Real homosexuality is a fondness towards people of the same sex. I think that the Bible either failed to describe that fondness the soldiers would have had towards the angels, or that the fondness did not exist at all. The latter seems more likely.

[freecell]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.




If he goes to jail and then gets out, all is forgiven?? He gets a clean slate? That might be how we are supposed to be but in all honesty I could not forgive something like that. And also I would consider myself better than someone like that as well, I am human after all...


I understand but we believe in order to ask for forgiveness you should be able to forgive. Now I am not saying let children around this person or forget.

[Conley]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.




If he goes to jail and then gets out, all is forgiven?? He gets a clean slate? That might be how we are supposed to be but in all honesty I could not forgive something like that. And also I would consider myself better than someone like that as well, I am human after all...


I understand but we believe in order to ask for forgiveness you should be able to forgive. Now I am not saying let children around this person or forget.


that is a good point, i can't argue with that

[spunkloaf]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


Why?

[freecell]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


Why?


I am not a preacher and won't give a sermon. As Mr. Graham said" Don't take credit for not falling into a temptation that never tempted you in the first place"
Even going back to the first-century church, the apostle Paul wrote to former homosexuals in the Corinthian church, "and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11).
I am not going to try and change your mind. This is my beliefs and I have a right to my beliefs.

[spunkloaf]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


Why?


I am not a preacher and won't give a sermon. As Mr. Graham said" Don't take credit for not falling into a temptation that never tempted you in the first place"
Even going back to the first-century church, the apostle Paul wrote to former homosexuals in the Corinthian church, "and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11).
I am not going to try and change your mind. This is my beliefs and I have a right to my beliefs.


I would welcome the occasion for you to try and change my mind. Are you up for the task? Please help me to see the light. Why is homosexuality a sin?

[MMC]

Well to note with the those of the Grecian Tribes and they were not the only ones. All one need do is look at the Spartans, and the Macedonians even up to Alexzander.

Even in other Eastern Cultures a Eunich.....sometimes was put around a nobles wife. As the last result bodyguard. Even to the point of being a deadly assassin.

Wonder how many walked up to a Spartan....and mocked that he was gay or a strange person. because correct me if I am wrong but isnt the term homosexual a modern-day term.

Another term that was used in the east about warriors who fought and loved one another or had sexual relations with each others. Was the term Sacred Banders. ;)

[spunkloaf]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.

[Mister D]

Well to note with the those of the Grecian Tribes and they were not the only ones. All one need do is look at the Spartans, and the Macedonians even up to Alexzander.

Even in other Eastern Cultures a Eunich.....sometimes was put around a nobles wife. As the last result bodyguard. Even to the point of being a deadly assassin.

Wonder how many walked up to a Spartan....and mocked that he was gay or a strange person. because correct me if I am wrong but isnt the term homosexual a modern-day term.

Another term that was used in the east about warriors who fought and loved one another or had sexual relations with each others. Was the term Sacred Banders. ;)


Did you know that the Theban Sacred Band was reportedly killed to a man at Charonea?

[Mister D]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.


Christians, most Christians anyway, believe that the Bible is the word of God.

[Mister D]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


I tend to go agree with that perspective. It's not homosexuality or even sexual immorality per se but lawlessness.

[Mister D]

Most Christians have interpreted the sin of Sodom to have been homosexuality but the text is not clear on that point. The citizens of Sodom do demand "to know" Lot's guests so there are explicit references to homosexual behavior but is the real sin the intended homosexual act or the mistreatment of strangers or a lack of hospitality? It's an interesting question. What do you all think?


My best guess was that it was less of a demonstration of actual homosexuality and more of a display of humility and punishment by a twisted society. I think it comes down to sexism. The worst shame of a man to be likened to a woman. Therefore the best way to humiliate a man is to treat him like a woman, and the best way to accomplish that sort of treatment is to rape a man as a woman would be raped--even if the act is vulgar, unorthodox and inappropriate. A man could accomplish the task of humiliation, degradation, punishment, and could get himself off all in the same act.

Real homosexuality is a fondness towards people of the same sex. I think that the Bible either failed to describe that fondness the soldiers would have had towards the angels, or that the fondness did not exist at all. The latter seems more likely.



There was certainly no fondness. I think that comes across. Interesting points.

[freecell]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


Why?


I am not a preacher and won't give a sermon. As Mr. Graham said" Don't take credit for not falling into a temptation that never tempted you in the first place"
Even going back to the first-century church, the apostle Paul wrote to former homosexuals in the Corinthian church, "and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11).
I am not going to try and change your mind. This is my beliefs and I have a right to my beliefs.


I would welcome the occasion for you to try and change my mind. Are you up for the task? Please help me to see the light. Why is homosexuality a sin?


LOL no that’s not my job. I have a good friend and brother-in-law that’s gay. My job is to treat people with love and respect. You have a right to believe as you wish. There is nothing I can say to change a persons heart. Actions speak louder than words. I too was not a Christ follower at one time. The more they pushed the farther I ran. Up to what challenge? Should I quote all the Bible? Will that do any good? I already know the answer is no.

[spunkloaf]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.


Christians, most Christians anyway, believe that the Bible is the word of God.


Only because they are told to, and they face the harsh possibility of rejection if they do not at least say that they follow the Bible.

[Mister D]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.


Christians, most Christians anyway, believe that the Bible is the word of God.


Only because they are told to, and they face the harsh possibility of rejection if they do not at least say that they follow the Bible.


Rejection from who? Other Christians? Well, if you don't believe as Christians do why would you want to be part of their community of faith?

[MMC]

Well to note with the those of the Grecian Tribes and they were not the only ones. All one need do is look at the Spartans, and the Macedonians even up to Alexzander.

Even in other Eastern Cultures a Eunich.....sometimes was put around a nobles wife. As the last result bodyguard. Even to the point of being a deadly assassin.

Wonder how many walked up to a Spartan....and mocked that he was gay or a strange person. because correct me if I am wrong but isnt the term homosexual a modern-day term.

Another term that was used in the east about warriors who fought and loved one another or had sexual relations with each others. Was the term Sacred Banders. ;)


Did you know that the Theban Sacred Band was reportedly killed to a man at Charonea?


Been sometime but I did read something on it once......something about a Tempest too.

[spunkloaf]

;DWell I will take a stab at this one because a lot of people confuse the word “judging”. If a man on your block has raped 9 children and you tell him he is wrong. Would that be judging to you? If he told you that you had no right to judge him would that be ok? Of course not. You have a right to believe he was wrong in his actions. You don’t have a right if he served his time to badger him or act like you are better than him.
Now as a Christian, I prefer Christ follower, I do believe homosexuality is a sin. The sins of Sodom, lawlessness. Raping, men laying with men, same as women, prostitution, selling others ect.


Why?


I am not a preacher and won't give a sermon. As Mr. Graham said" Don't take credit for not falling into a temptation that never tempted you in the first place"
Even going back to the first-century church, the apostle Paul wrote to former homosexuals in the Corinthian church, "and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11).
I am not going to try and change your mind. This is my beliefs and I have a right to my beliefs.


I would welcome the occasion for you to try and change my mind. Are you up for the task? Please help me to see the light. Why is homosexuality a sin?


LOL no that’s not my job. I have a good friend and brother-in-law that’s gay. My job is to treat people with love and respect. You have a right to believe as you wish. There is nothing I can say to change a persons heart. Actions speak louder than words. I too was not a Christ follower at one time. The more they pushed the farther I ran. Up to what challenge? Should I quote all the Bible? Will that do any good? I already know the answer is no.

So your answer to why you believe homosexuality is a sin is because the Bible says so. Where does the Bible say "And God declared that homosexuality is a sin?"

[freecell]

I was called by Christ before I read the Bible. Don’t ask me to push my beliefs on you and don’t try to push yours on me. Yes, I do believe in the Bible. I am one of those who believe He is the creator or inspired the old and new testament and I am not ashamed to say so. You don’t have to agree with me and I will respect your opinions and expect the same from you. I will not debate if it’s a sin or not, believe as you wish. You are asking me to do something that we both despise.

[spunkloaf]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.


Christians, most Christians anyway, believe that the Bible is the word of God.


Only because they are told to, and they face the harsh possibility of rejection if they do not at least say that they follow the Bible.


Rejection from who? Other Christians? Well, if you don't believe as Christians do why would you want to be part of their community of faith?


Great question, and the best answer is that one probably would not want to be a part of it. That describes me pretty well. I was born into Catholicism, and I openly embraced it with great enthusiasm. My dad's side of our huge family and almost all 12 of his brothers and sisters and their families went to church every Sunday. It was and still is a huge to-do. Then I hit the evil age of reason, and discovered there was something very wrong with me...

I had to make a choice. I could either "sin" in two different ways while still being a part of that community by a. being an open homosexual, or b. lying about myself and acting like a heterosexual. OR I could choose to not be part of that community anymore, and not have to "sin" at all. Yay!

Decisions are not always easy. I came to the conclusion that if God was really there, and he created this whole mess to begin with...then he knew the decision I was going to make, and it was impossible for me to be wrong. I discovered something more powerful of myself than that which I could get from a community or a family. Self respect. Like many things, it was God-given.

I still go to church on family occasions. And I take communion. My family likes to see me there in participation, even though I'm a complete abomination. Through all this ugly social engineering, love still shines through. It's amazing.

[spunkloaf]

I was called by Christ before I read the Bible. Don’t ask me to push my beliefs on you and don’t try to push yours on me. Yes, I do believe in the Bible. I am one of those who believe He is the creator or inspired the old and new testament and I am not ashamed to say so. You don’t have to agree with me and I will respect your opinions and expect the same from you. I will not debate if it’s a sin or not, believe as you wish. You are asking me to do something that we both despise.


I'm just trying to challenge your way of thinking. I didn't know that was also a sin. ;)

[Conley]

I think this is a reasonable discussion. After all, not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Personally, I don't. Obviously Christianity encompasses many beliefs. For those that do believe homosexuality is a sin, is this based on the interpretation of the bible? What scripture are we talking about? I think that is fair game, no? Surely we can discuss these thing?

[Conley]

It's easy to say you believe in something just so that you can fit in with the status quo. Even if you don't understand what you say you believe.


Christians, most Christians anyway, believe that the Bible is the word of God.


Only because they are told to, and they face the harsh possibility of rejection if they do not at least say that they follow the Bible.


Rejection from who? Other Christians? Well, if you don't believe as Christians do why would you want to be part of their community of faith?


You also have to consider Old Testament vs. New and the many times the Bible contradicts itself. Without context it is meaningless. For example, one could quote a sinner and claim it is the word of God since it appears within the text, but obviously if we knew the full story that would not be the case.

This was interesting from Freecell:

Even going back to the first-century church, the apostle Paul wrote to former homosexuals in the Corinthian church, "and such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11).

I am having trouble finding a good online source for entire chapters, but there's this before it (verse 9):

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men"

Verse 10:

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[Conley]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D

[Mister D]

Romans Chapter 1

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

[Mister D]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.

[freecell]

I think this is a reasonable discussion. After all, not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Personally, I don't. Obviously Christianity encompasses many beliefs. For those that do believe homosexuality is a sin, is this based on the interpretation of the bible? What scripture are we talking about? I think that is fair game, no? Surely we can discuss these thing?


Lev. 18:22-23; Rom. 1:26-27, 1 Cor. 6:9-11. Ok but don’t ask me to change your mind.
Here are a few.

[Mister D]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A18-32&version=NKJV

This is the passage look up I use

[spunkloaf]

It doesn't say it anywhere. The rejection of homosexuality by certain Christian groups along with other groups is collective bullshit. Christ certainly would not have rejected homosexuals. The belief that homosexuality is a sin is entirely man made, and the whole thing is born out of man's contempt for women. You will notice that there is way more negative attention against homosexual males than there is against homosexual females. This is because men think it is an abomination that other males will act like women, and that is because men consider themselves higher than women.

The fact that homosexuals exist creates a sort of bridge between the sexes, and some people just will not have that. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, and that's how they intend to keep it. There are way deeper implications to the rejection of homosexuality than people will admit to, or even realize. They wish to hide behind the false excuse that it is simply sinful.

[Mister D]

It doesn't say it anywhere. The rejection of homosexuality by certain Christian groups along with other groups is collective bullshit. Christ certainly would not have rejected homosexuals. The belief that homosexuality is a sin is entirely man made, and the whole thing is born out of man's contempt for women. You will notice that there is way more negative attention against homosexual males than there is against homosexual females. This is because men think it is an abomination that other males will act like women, and that is because men consider themselves higher than women.

The fact that homosexuals exist creates a sort of bridge between the sexes, and some people just will not have that. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, and that's how they intend to keep it. There are way deeper implications to the rejection of homosexuality than people will admit to, or even realize. They wish to hide behind the false excuse that it is simply sinful.


Romans1: 27-28 explodes your claims in that it specifically condemns homosexuality and it also condemns such behavior from either sex. I believe Leviticus does that as well.

[spunkloaf]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.


I think you're right.



It doesn't say it anywhere. The rejection of homosexuality by certain Christian groups along with other groups is collective bullshit. Christ certainly would not have rejected homosexuals. The belief that homosexuality is a sin is entirely man made, and the whole thing is born out of man's contempt for women. You will notice that there is way more negative attention against homosexual males than there is against homosexual females. This is because men think it is an abomination that other males will act like women, and that is because men consider themselves higher than women.

The fact that homosexuals exist creates a sort of bridge between the sexes, and some people just will not have that. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, and that's how they intend to keep it. There are way deeper implications to the rejection of homosexuality than people will admit to, or even realize. They wish to hide behind the false excuse that it is simply sinful.


Romans1: 27-28 explodes your claims in that it specifically condemns homosexuality and it also condemns such behavior from either sex. I believe Leviticus does that as well.


So there are passages which seem to condemn homosexuality. (still doesn't say it's a sin)

Since we're interpreting the Bible so literally, let's revisit the story of Lot's family. Motherfucker was willing to let his daughters be ravaged by the men of the town, old and young, so that he could save these two stranger angels.

A lesser man than you or I would take that to mean it's okay to hand out members of your family to angry mobs, especially as sex slaves.

How about Abraham's duty to God to slay his only son Isaac as a sacrifice? Would you, could you ever find the courage to do something like this even if God himself showed up and told you to? In the Bible, it almost seems that Abraham had more faith in God than the love for his only son. Thank goodness that angel showed up and pointed out the ram with its horns stuck in the brush, and told Abraham to slay it instead.

Can you imagine the breakfast conversation between Abraham and Isaac the next morning? :D "So.......Daddy-o....any other deities instruct you to kill me today?" ;D

[Conley]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.


:D

Yeah, I know you will own me in any discussion of the Bible...I agree with what you're saying. There is a lot in the Bible about a woman's place, and that seems to have been largely rejected. People pick and choose what they want to believe, what they want to adhere to.

[Conley]

I think this is a reasonable discussion. After all, not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Personally, I don't. Obviously Christianity encompasses many beliefs. For those that do believe homosexuality is a sin, is this based on the interpretation of the bible? What scripture are we talking about? I think that is fair game, no? Surely we can discuss these thing?


Lev. 18:22-23; Rom. 1:26-27, 1 Cor. 6:9-11. Ok but don’t ask me to change your mind.
Here are a few.


Thank you Freecell, I appreciate it. I certainly don't expect you to change my mind and I know that we both respect each other's beliefs. I'm just trying to learn more about where people get the beliefs that they do, that's all. :)

[spunkloaf]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.


:D

Yeah, I know you will own me in any discussion of the Bible...I agree with what you're saying. There is a lot in the Bible about a woman's place, and that seems to have been largely rejected. People pick and choose what they want to believe, what they want to adhere to.


Precisely. The Bible is an interesting old book created by man which can be interpreted under many lights.

[Mister D]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.


I think you're right.



It doesn't say it anywhere. The rejection of homosexuality by certain Christian groups along with other groups is collective bullshit. Christ certainly would not have rejected homosexuals. The belief that homosexuality is a sin is entirely man made, and the whole thing is born out of man's contempt for women. You will notice that there is way more negative attention against homosexual males than there is against homosexual females. This is because men think it is an abomination that other males will act like women, and that is because men consider themselves higher than women.

The fact that homosexuals exist creates a sort of bridge between the sexes, and some people just will not have that. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus, and that's how they intend to keep it. There are way deeper implications to the rejection of homosexuality than people will admit to, or even realize. They wish to hide behind the false excuse that it is simply sinful.


Romans1: 27-28 explodes your claims in that it specifically condemns homosexuality and it also condemns such behavior from either sex. I believe Leviticus does that as well.


So there are passages which seem to condemn homosexuality. (still doesn't say it's a sin)

Since we're interpreting the Bible so literally, let's revisit the story of Lot's family. Motherfucker was willing to let his daughters be ravaged by the men of the town, old and young, so that he could save these two stranger angels.

A lesser man than you or I would take that to mean it's okay to hand out members of your family to angry mobs, especially as sex slaves.

How about Abraham's duty to God to slay his only son Isaac as a sacrifice? Would you, could you ever find the courage to do something like this even if God himself showed up and told you to? In the Bible, it almost seems that Abraham had more faith in God than the love for his only son. Thank goodness that angel showed up and pointed out the ram with its horns stuck in the brush, and told Abraham to slay it instead.

Can you imagine the breakfast conversation between Abraham and Isaac the next morning? :D "So.......Daddy-o....any other deities instruct you to kill me today?" ;D


There are parts of the Bible that are meant to be taken literally and I think we can safely assume Paul is describing homosexuality as a sin. ;) On the other hand, he could very well be referring to ancient practices such as orgies etc. I will look into this for you. I'm curious. Not bi-curious. Just curious. ;)

As for Lot, yes, that's shocking to us but it wouldn't have been to the ancient Hebrews. Hospitality was a treasured value. The argument is that these people had nomadic roots and that there lives literally depended on hospitality. You simply did not mistreat strangers the way the men of Sodom were doing. That's why it appears as such a high biblical value. It's hard for us to understand but they saw the world very differently. Not better or worse. Just different.

[Mister D]

Mr. D is so quick on the draw I can't even get my edits in before he starts replying hehe :D


;)

Look, I think much of the taboo against homosexuality is due to sources outside Christianity. I think some have looked toward the Bible to confirm prejudices they already held.


:D

Yeah, I know you will own me in any discussion of the Bible...I agree with what you're saying. There is a lot in the Bible about a woman's place, and that seems to have been largely rejected. People pick and choose what they want to believe, what they want to adhere to.


Precisely. The Bible is an interesting old book created by man which can be interpreted under many lights.


That's not what I said. :D What I said was that homosexuality is not a big theme in the Bible. I think it is declared sinful but it's not like it's a major theme. For example, it does not appear to be any more sinful than adultery and fornication but we are much more accepting of that.

[Conley]

See what happens when you guys actually post a topic?

We get a discussion going! :P :D

[spunkloaf]

That's fine if people want to reject homosexuality. They should understand though that it is entirely a choice to reject or accept it, it is not a choice to BE it. So if there is a fault anywhere here in terms of homos and non-homos not getting along, it falls on the heads of people who reject homosexuality because they are the ones who make the choice. And for what, really?

[Conley]

That's fine if people want to reject homosexuality. They should understand though that it is entirely a choice to reject or accept it, it is not a choice to BE it. So if there is a fault anywhere here in terms of homos and non-homos not getting along, it falls on the heads of people who reject homosexuality because they are the ones who make the choice. And for what, really?


From a logical standpoint I have a very hard time understanding why anyone has a problem with homosexuals. It is pretty irrelevant compared to other behavior I see in society which has the potential to do great harm. Hell, people on cellphones in restaurants annoy the crap out of me way more than whether someone is gay or not...I don't get the outrage.

[spunkloaf]

That's fine if people want to reject homosexuality. They should understand though that it is entirely a choice to reject or accept it, it is not a choice to BE it. So if there is a fault anywhere here in terms of homos and non-homos not getting along, it falls on the heads of people who reject homosexuality because they are the ones who make the choice. And for what, really?


From a logical standpoint I have a very hard time understanding why anyone has a problem with homosexuals. It is pretty irrelevant compared to other behavior I see in society which has the potential to do great harm. Hell, people on cellphones in restaurants annoy the crap out of me way more than whether someone is gay or not...I don't get the outrage.


There are lots of questions about homosexuality which have yet to be answered.
In terms of why society is not accepting it, I think it comes down to what I said before. People are not so opposed to homosexuality as they are opposed to men being gay. It's a sexist thing, born out of man's contempt for women. It's shameful for a man to act like a woman, or take on the sexual role of a woman. Men embrace this belief because it's self validation of their dominance, and women also cling to this belief because they are attracted to man's dominance. It's disgusting.

However, put two women together who can kiss and lick each other, and it's not an abomination at all--it's exciting! A straight man sees two women making out and he doesn't think of homosexuality, he just thinks about how fun it is to watch. If it were only possible for women to be attracted to each other and not for men to be attracted to each other, I guarantee the entire taboo would not be there.

[spunkloaf]

I agree that Sodom's sin was that of unlawfulness. Also as I understand it the city was full of sinful, greedy people who lacked heavily in faith.

[spunkloaf]

Another good question to ask would be about the origination of homosexuality. A good place to start with that is to try and explain attraction in general. What makes people excited about seeing somebody else they are fond of? Are their thoughts exclusively about sex? Are there thoughts about starting a family with that person? Is it simply proximity that satisfies us, like just being next to that person? I'm not entirely sure. It's hard to examine the mechanics of love.

One thing I can be certain of at least with homosexual males is that studies have shown that a male's chances of being homosexual improve dramatically with each older brother he has. There are theories which suggest this is because the mother's body treats the fetus like it is an intruder and attacks it with antibodies, and the number of these antibodies increases with each pregnancy. Other theories suggest it is completely psychological, and chances of a male being homosexual increases with an overprotective mother and an absent father. With lesbians, it's theorized that they are mentally, physically or sexually abused by men and have power issues, so they take on the role of a dominant male and seduce other females.

[Mister D]

Well, as you sort of point out, we simply don;t know what he origin of homosexuality is.

[MMC]

Seems many of the Saced Banders had wives. Whether for political alliance, and or property. Still many lived with their their shieldmate. As that was the term then. Warrior/brother/bestfriend/lover/counsel. Obviously nothing but the best for both. Death of the shieldmate did not mean that another could just take that ones place.

[Mister D]

See what happens when you guys actually post a topic?

We get a discussion going! :P :D


I was inspired about posting this for discussion. Divinely inspired? :o :o :o

I will research that point for Spunkster. I wonder what specifically Paul is referring to. It's obviously some hard core anal action but was it a particular custom? Was it an orgy? A pagan religious rite etc?

[Mister D]

Seems many of the Saced Banders had wives. Whether for political alliance, and or property. Still many lived with their their shieldmate. As that was the term then. Warrior/brother/bestfriend/lover/counsel. Obviously nothing but the best for both. Death of the shieldmate did not mean that another could just take that ones place.


I've made this point time and again. The ancients, for all their tolerance of homosexuality, considered the idea of same sex marriage ridiculous.

[MMC]

That because the youth of the world wants to forget its history. Each writing their own little story. Now the US writing whatever it wants. As well as trying to re-write others.

Yet to look at this issue and due to other writings in the Hebrews History Book. This really was not an issue focused upon with such great observation.

The Sumerians were recording everything down from the beginning of their time. For that region of the world. First of man of this time writing. Where Enoch learned to write. Tru dat D.....many tribes were nomadic. I think the Dondga are the last now living tribe that relates history down by word of mouth. Not sure on the spelling of the name. Yet they were wanderes as well. Even fighting for and with Egyptians. As Well As against them too.

[Mister D]

That because the youth of the world wants to forget its history. Each writing their own little story. Now the US writing whatever it wants. As well as trying to re-write others.

Yet to look at this issue and due to other writings in the Hebrews History Book. This really was not an issue focused upon with such great observation.

The Sumerians were recording everything down from the beginning of their time. For that region of the world. First of man of this time writing. Where Enoch learned to write. Tru dat D.....many tribes were nomadic. I think the Dondga are the last now living tribe that relates history down by word of mouth. Not sure on the spelling of the name. Yet they were wanderes as well. Even fighting for and with Egyptians. As Well As against them too.



Good point but I don't think it's so much that they consciously want to forget but that they've never had it explained to the why it matters.

[spunkloaf]

Seems many of the Saced Banders had wives. Whether for political alliance, and or property. Still many lived with their their shieldmate. As that was the term then. Warrior/brother/bestfriend/lover/counsel. Obviously nothing but the best for both. Death of the shieldmate did not mean that another could just take that ones place.


I've made this point time and again. The ancients, for all their tolerance of homosexuality, considered the idea of same sex marriage ridiculous.


There's a bunch of things ancients did which were also ridiculous. It's really no amazing feat that intolerance towards gay marriage has survived.

[Mister D]

Seems many of the Saced Banders had wives. Whether for political alliance, and or property. Still many lived with their their shieldmate. As that was the term then. Warrior/brother/bestfriend/lover/counsel. Obviously nothing but the best for both. Death of the shieldmate did not mean that another could just take that ones place.


I've made this point time and again. The ancients, for all their tolerance of homosexuality, considered the idea of same sex marriage ridiculous.


There's a bunch of things ancients did which were also ridiculous. It's really no amazing feat that intolerance towards gay marriage has survived.


They weren't intolerant of it. It just didn't make any sense to them whether they were straight or gay. In fact, it no sense to anyone until only about 50-60 years ago.