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Conley
07-10-2011, 10:58 PM
Not sure that there are really good statistics to back that up, but I suppose theoretically it could be true.

Still, there are better ways to discuss the breakdown of the black family unit and I don't think you can pin that on Obama. :D

"Michele Bachmann, the Republican presidential candidate, signed a Christian conservative pledge that stated that African American children were more likely to grow up in stable families during the era of slavery than under President Barack Obama."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/republicans/8628717/Michele-Bachmann-signs-controversial-slavery-marriage-pact.html

freecell
07-10-2011, 11:17 PM
Many black families are a one parent home. In fact it's becoming a norm with others as well. Not good for the youth of our future. Saying it's Obama's fault is crazy.
Were they better off in slavery times? NO I can't imagine what it felt like to have your children sold at public auction. Not all were just saying. In slavery you had no control of what the owners did to your children. With that said, blacks owned blacks and whites were also slaves.

Conley
07-10-2011, 11:30 PM
yes, d and i had a good discussion about this. imo a lot of the problems in our society are from single parent homes. it takes two to raise a kid, at least that is the ideal.

the thing is i know where bachmann is coming from but this was just a stupid way of putting it. not sure what she was thinking.

next thing you know she'll say black unemployment was lower during slavery than it is under obama :D

spunkloaf
07-10-2011, 11:32 PM
yes, d and i had a good discussion about this. imo a lot of the problems in our society are from single parent homes. it takes two to raise a kid, at least that is the ideal.

the thing is i know where bachmann is coming from but this was just a stupid way of putting it. not sure what she was thinking.

next thing you know she'll say black unemployment was lower during slavery than it is under obama :D


That sounds like something Palin might say. ;D

Mister D
07-11-2011, 03:38 PM
yes, d and i had a good discussion about this. imo a lot of the problems in our society are from single parent homes. it takes two to raise a kid, at least that is the ideal.

the thing is i know where bachmann is coming from but this was just a stupid way of putting it. not sure what she was thinking.

next thing you know she'll say black unemployment was lower during slavery than it is under obama :D


Any sensible person knows what Bachmann meant by that remark or what the pledge crafters meant by the inclusion of the clause. This is rapidly becoming another "niggardly" moment. The smarter commentators are just malicious hacks.

Conley
07-11-2011, 03:48 PM
It's not really a distortion though...the opening line of the pledge she signed, says verbatim:

""Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement introducing the pledge read. "

So she is saying exactly that. It was not a smart move politically...I don't think one can blame the press for this lack of common sense.

Mister D
07-11-2011, 04:07 PM
It's not really a distortion though...the opening line of the pledge she signed, says verbatim:

""Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement introducing the pledge read. "

So she is saying exactly that. It was not a smart move politically...I don't think one can blame the press for this lack of common sense.


What she said may actually be correct. The black illegitimacy rate is around 70%. All she did was make a statistical comparison. For example, it's been said that the death rate among blacks is higher in some cities (or maybe even nationwide) than it was in Vietnam. Does that mean blacks are better off joining the army and fighting a war? No, it just makes a point about the murder rate.

In any case, a rate of 70% is a social and economic disaster. That's what she was calling attention to.

Conley
07-11-2011, 04:20 PM
She may be correct, she may not. You say she is making a statistical comparison, but without solid numbers that doesn't really work.

If she was concerned about the illegitimacy rate, she should have just come out and said so. Using this 'petition' to make the point was foolhardy, as not only does it suggest blacks were better off under slavery, but also that Obama is to blame for the current collapse of the black family unit.

I maintain that is just not smart politics, and you can believe that Romney and the others are more than happy to see this story gather steam even if it is mostly the left wing media fanning the flames. GOPers can complain about the Dems using the race card, but if you know the other sides' tactics, why give them another opportunity to use it against you? I'm just saying she needs to run a practical and realistic campaign, and this is not the way to do it.

Conley
07-11-2011, 04:21 PM
Also I notice I've been misspelling Bachmann's first name this whole time. :D Oops.

Mister D
07-11-2011, 04:30 PM
She may be correct, she may not. You say she is making a statistical comparison, but without solid numbers that doesn't really work.

If she was concerned about the illegitimacy rate, she should have just come out and said so. Using this 'petition' to make the point was foolhardy, as not only does it suggest blacks were better off under slavery, but also that Obama is to blame for the current collapse of the black family unit.

I maintain that is just not smart politics, and you can believe that Romney and the others are more than happy to see this story gather steam even if it is mostly the left wing media fanning the flames. GOPers can complain about the Dems using the race card, but if you know the other sides' tactics, why give them another opportunity to use it against you? I'm just saying she needs to run a practical and realistic campaign, and this is not the way to do it.


I think the petition is about marriage or something like that not specifically about black illegitimacy. She/they just did that to make a point about how bad the situation has gotten. Frankly, I don't think it either blames BO or suggests that blacks were better off as slaves. Moreover, I keep hearing about it's supposed inaccuracy but I have to see that inaccuracy demonstrated. All I've seen thus far are some commentators saying slave families were routinely broken up. I doubt that is the case. It probably depended on time and place from what I have read on the subject. More importantly, black two parent families simply don't exist anywhere near to the extent that they did in 1960. Were 70% of black children raised without fathers under the slave regime? I think that may not be the case.

Was it wise? I agree with you there. Yeah, her handlers should have known how this would be twisted against her.

Mister D
07-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Also I notice I've been misspelling Bachmann's first name this whole time. :D Oops.


I hardly knew anything about her until this happened so that's a plus. I'm sure I'm not alone. :D

Conley
07-11-2011, 04:37 PM
Yes, I think comparisons to black families of the 50s or 60s would have been better -- easier to prove statistically and still emphasizes the point that we all realize. I think think they were using the slavery thing as shock value, and if Michele hadn't signed her name to it no one would be talking about it.

Bachmann kind of reminds me of Paul in that much of what she says makes a lot of sense, and then suddenly there's this completely unexpected WTF moment. If you collect enough of those during your years, they usually come back to bite you on the campaign trail and in debates.

freecell
07-11-2011, 05:02 PM
They had to have known just putting the word "slavery" would cause an uproar.

GRUMPY
07-11-2011, 05:46 PM
It's not really a distortion though...the opening line of the pledge she signed, says verbatim:

""Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement introducing the pledge read. "So she is saying exactly that. It was not a smart move politically...I don't think one can blame the press for this lack of common sense.

and so what is the problem with this statement.....liberal policy has destroyed the black man, the black family, the black community and largely the black culture....

http://www.theroot.com/views/poor-state-black-families

i would bet money that the actual numbers are worse....

Conley
07-11-2011, 05:55 PM
It's not really a distortion though...the opening line of the pledge she signed, says verbatim:

""Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement introducing the pledge read. "So she is saying exactly that. It was not a smart move politically...I don't think one can blame the press for this lack of common sense.

and so what is the problem with this statement.....liberal policy has destroyed the black man, the black family, the black community and largely the black culture....

http://www.theroot.com/views/poor-state-black-families

i would bet money that the actual numbers are worse....


The problem is not that she's incorrect. She may very well be correct.

The problem is that most people aren't going to pay close enough attention to think about what her point was, and instead going to focus on her mentioning slavery and conclude that she is blaming Obama for the problems black families face today. The reality of politics in this country is sound bites, and this was in my opinion an all risk/no reward move by Bachmann. Now you can say it's unfair, you can say that more people should pay closer attention to politics and the decay of our society, but at the end of the day I don't think this move really raises awareness so much as damages Bachmann's shot at the GOP. It may well blow over but right now it looks like a net negative to me.

GRUMPY
07-11-2011, 06:19 PM
It's not really a distortion though...the opening line of the pledge she signed, says verbatim:

""Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement introducing the pledge read. "So she is saying exactly that. It was not a smart move politically...I don't think one can blame the press for this lack of common sense.

and so what is the problem with this statement.....liberal policy has destroyed the black man, the black family, the black community and largely the black culture....

http://www.theroot.com/views/poor-state-black-families

i would bet money that the actual numbers are worse....


The problem is not that she's incorrect. She may very well be correct.

The problem is that most people aren't going to pay close enough attention to think about what her point was, and instead going to focus on her mentioning slavery and conclude that she is blaming Obama for the problems black families face today. The reality of politics in this country is sound bites, and this was in my opinion an all risk/no reward move by Bachmann. Now you can say it's unfair, you can say that more people should pay closer attention to politics and the decay of our society, but at the end of the day I don't think this move really raises awareness so much as damages Bachmann's shot at the GOP. It may well blow over but right now it looks like a net negative to me.

when has obama ever, ever done anything that actually benefitted anyone but himself....what is the rate of black unemployment in this country today....abortion.....foreclosure.....incarceratio n.....this is not a conversation that the left wants to have because they and their policy own it....obama relies upon the ignorance and racial guilt of the electorate and it may yet save him while damning our nation.....

Conley
07-11-2011, 06:29 PM
hey grumpy, it's not just the black unemployment rate that sucks...i think it's pretty obvious by now obama doesn't give two squirts about unemployment. keep those corporate profits UP!

Mister D
07-11-2011, 06:50 PM
I agree with Conley that it was politically insane. That t said, Michelle Bachmann's smarter detractors know damn well that that is not at all what she meant. Their actions, in so far as they pretend that her intent is a real mystery, are positively evil.

Mister D
07-11-2011, 06:53 PM
I will note with disdain how the other arguments I've seen about this issue have broken down on roughly partisan lines. It is a credit to PR that this has not happened but we are still pretty small.

Conley
07-11-2011, 07:01 PM
I will note with disdain how the other arguments I've seen about this issue have broken down on roughly partisan lines. It is a credit to PR that this has not happened but we are still pretty small.


yeah, i think it's mostly because of our small size. no doubt we will get larger, and stupider ;D

on our old board this would have been a flame war between aaronsongs and BIGTEX :D

frankly i'm glad we don't have posters like that.

GRUMPY
07-11-2011, 07:12 PM
I agree with Conley that it was politically insane. That t said, Michelle Bachmann's smarter detractors know damn well that that is not at all what she meant. Their actions, in so far as they pretend that her intent is a real mystery, are positively evil.

this election will not be decided by reps pulling 10% or so of the black vote, they will not....this election will not be decided by obama playing to his base, where else will those loons go....this election will not be decided by turnout, it will be high....this election will be decided by the feckless middle who felt so enlightened and so very good about themselves for their affirmative action vote and whether they have had enough of collective redemption....

Conley
07-11-2011, 07:16 PM
I agree with Conley that it was politically insane. That t said, Michelle Bachmann's smarter detractors know damn well that that is not at all what she meant. Their actions, in so far as they pretend that her intent is a real mystery, are positively evil.

this election will not be decided by reps pulling 10% or so of the black vote, they will not....this election will not be decided by obama playing to his base, where else will those loons go....this election will not be decided by turnout, it will be high....this election will be decided by the feckless middle who felt so enlightened and so very good about themselves for their affirmative action vote and whether they have had enough of collective redemption....


I don't know if turnout will be that high...yes, people are disillusioned with Obama, but none of the GOP contenders thus far look like those capable of capturing a large number of independents (unlike Obama was able to with blacks). Romney? I don't see it. He is a repeat runner, like Dole was. Maybe if Bachmann gets the nomination she'll pull more women into voting who otherwise would not. I think turnout will be low and those who now feel burned by Obama will just stay at home rather than come out and vote for his opponent. Never underestimate the lethargy of the American people.

Mister D
07-11-2011, 07:35 PM
I agree with Conley that it was politically insane. That t said, Michelle Bachmann's smarter detractors know damn well that that is not at all what she meant. Their actions, in so far as they pretend that her intent is a real mystery, are positively evil.

this election will not be decided by reps pulling 10% or so of the black vote, they will not....this election will not be decided by obama playing to his base, where else will those loons go....this election will not be decided by turnout, it will be high....this election will be decided by the feckless middle who felt so enlightened and so very good about themselves for their affirmative action vote and whether they have had enough of collective redemption....


Not to sound brutal but I don't think that the GOP shouldn't really care about what blacks think. If they want to pander (and they inevitably will) pander to Hispanics.

I agree. BO will be thrown out by the squishy middle who wanted to make history.

Conley
07-11-2011, 07:52 PM
Yes, seems like the GOP would do well to focus on the Hispanics. There are a lot more of them than Blacks anyhow, and there are some parallels. A GOP candidate who is wishy washy on immigration (and aren't they all >:( ) should be able to pull good numbers. MMC has argued this point well lately...

Mister D
07-11-2011, 07:56 PM
Yes, seems like the GOP would do well to focus on the Hispanics. There are a lot more of them than Blacks anyhow, and there are some parallels. A GOP candidate who is wishy washy on immigration (and aren't they all >:( ) should be able to pull good numbers. MMC has argued this point well lately...


It's cold but practical. I wonder if any strategists within the GOP framework ever urge that on anyone. You can avoid making comments that can and will be misconstrued just by ignoring blacks all together. What does a GOP candidate really have to lose? ???

freecell
07-12-2011, 12:33 AM
I will note with disdain how the other arguments I've seen about this issue have broken down on roughly partisan lines. It is a credit to PR that this has not happened but we are still pretty small.


yeah, i think it's mostly because of our small size. no doubt we will get larger, and stupider ;D

on our old board this would have been a flame war between aaronsongs and BIGTEX :D

frankly i'm glad we don't have posters like that.


True but like I said first on PH a train wreak draws crowds. It's good to have opposing views.

GRUMPY
07-12-2011, 07:14 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....

Conley
07-12-2011, 09:19 AM
I will note with disdain how the other arguments I've seen about this issue have broken down on roughly partisan lines. It is a credit to PR that this has not happened but we are still pretty small.


yeah, i think it's mostly because of our small size. no doubt we will get larger, and stupider ;D

on our old board this would have been a flame war between aaronsongs and BIGTEX :D

frankly i'm glad we don't have posters like that.


True but like I said first on PH a train wreak draws crowds. It's good to have opposing views.


i definitely agree with the second half of your statement. actually i guess you know aaronsongs, who used to be on here :D but i'm pretty sure you would not be a fan of BIGTEX...this place did sometimes veer into AWE territory though we usually dealt with the trolls by banding together against them. Some of them were fun to mess with too, like David the anti-semite from Australia -- remember him D?

Conley
07-12-2011, 09:21 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....


Again, it's just smart politics. Not pandering, just speaking to them, making public appearances with Hispanic leaders, etc. You might not like it but Hispanics are Americans too. There's no reason to ignore them or pretend such a huge potential voting block is irrelevant.

Mister D
07-12-2011, 09:26 AM
I will note with disdain how the other arguments I've seen about this issue have broken down on roughly partisan lines. It is a credit to PR that this has not happened but we are still pretty small.


yeah, i think it's mostly because of our small size. no doubt we will get larger, and stupider ;D

on our old board this would have been a flame war between aaronsongs and BIGTEX :D

frankly i'm glad we don't have posters like that.


True but like I said first on PH a train wreak draws crowds. It's good to have opposing views.


i definitely agree with the second half of your statement. actually i guess you know aaronsongs, who used to be on here :D but i'm pretty sure you would not be a fan of BIGTEX...this place did sometimes veer into AWE territory though we usually dealt with the trolls by banding together against them. Some of them were fun to mess with too, like David the anti-semite from Australia -- remember him D?


Yep. David Banana and Jen. ::) Couple of loons. BIGTEX was hilarious. ;D Kind of a diock but funny.

Mister D
07-12-2011, 09:27 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....


Again, it's just smart politics. Not pandering, just speaking to them, making public appearances with Hispanic leaders, etc. You might not like it but Hispanics are Americans too. There's no reason to ignore them or pretend such a huge potential voting block is irrelevant.


It's smart politics for the GOP but terrible politics for the nation.

Conley
07-12-2011, 09:36 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....


Again, it's just smart politics. Not pandering, just speaking to them, making public appearances with Hispanic leaders, etc. You might not like it but Hispanics are Americans too. There's no reason to ignore them or pretend such a huge potential voting block is irrelevant.


It's smart politics for the GOP but terrible politics for the nation.


Only because when we're talking about Hispanics you are thinking of those that haven't aligned with our country and culture. There are both kinds, granted it is tough to say what the percentage are, but both comprise huge numbers.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot he was David Banana :D it was hard to take him as evil, he was just so ridiculous...I always thought sidekick Jen was probably a dude.

GRUMPY
07-12-2011, 09:42 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....


Again, it's just smart politics. Not pandering, just speaking to them, making public appearances with Hispanic leaders, etc. You might not like it but Hispanics are Americans too. There's no reason to ignore them or pretend such a huge potential voting block is irrelevant.

politics as usual has nearly destroyed this republic son and your attempt to play the race card is lame.....you don't ignore anyone nor do you pander to anyone....you give the same speech to everyone, on camera, off camera, be they black, white, hispanic, gay, straight or whatever....it is called integrity son....it is part of conducting yourself and carrying with you through life a code that is built upon honesty and integrity....you don't lie, cheat or steal....you hold no man to a standard that you are unwilling to hold unto yourself....your handshake is your bond and your word is your contract....honor your commitments, love and protect your woman and children placing them upon the mantle of your heart....you will fall, fail morally and physically but you will always hold yourself accountable for your failings and stand again.....you will acknowledge the hypocrite that life will make of us all and strive to raise your children to be better than yourself.... you expect no more than that for which you are willing to work, and you raise your hand to no man unless it is in defense of yourself, family, neighbor, country or one unable to defend themselves.....it is character that you develop throughout your life through trial and tribulation son....it is about walking through this world with a code.....

Conley
07-12-2011, 09:45 AM
you're the one that brought up pandering, not me. i just said it does not harm to include them. just as a pol would give a speech irish catholic church he can do the same at a hispanic catholic church. ;D

Mister D
07-12-2011, 09:52 AM
conley, "pandering" to blacks, hispanics and the jackasses that comprise the left in this country is not the way....and while you are at it, think about what comprises the middle in this country, feebleminded, feckless and wanting to feel good about themselves for their decision....regardless, much of that feel good crowd is on to the fraud that is obama the only question remaining is can the msm win for him again....back to the beginning, the way forward is a clear and honest presentation/implementation of conservative principle this liberating the individual and allowing this country to truly be exceptional once more....


Again, it's just smart politics. Not pandering, just speaking to them, making public appearances with Hispanic leaders, etc. You might not like it but Hispanics are Americans too. There's no reason to ignore them or pretend such a huge potential voting block is irrelevant.


It's smart politics for the GOP but terrible politics for the nation.


Only because when we're talking about Hispanics you are thinking of those that haven't aligned with our country and culture. There are both kinds, granted it is tough to say what the percentage are, but both comprise huge numbers.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot he was David Banana :D it was hard to take him as evil, he was just so ridiculous...I always thought sidekick Jen was probably a dude.


It's racial pandering and it does not bode well for the future. The fact that there are many Hispanics in this country that do not identify with the US just makes it more a sickening betrayal.

There was something creepy about David Banana. How many posts can you make about Ayn Rand and how much you hate Jews? Better stil, as I pointed out to him, Ayn was Jewish!

GRUMPY
07-12-2011, 10:09 AM
you're the one that brought up pandering, not me. i just said it does not harm to include them. just as a pol would give a speech irish catholic church he can do the same at a hispanic catholic church. ;D

now you are attempting to run from your own words son.....
these are your words "you may not like it but hispanics are americans too"....asking for nothing more than honesty son, is this conversation beyond your current abilities....

GRUMPY
07-12-2011, 02:15 PM
you're the one that brought up pandering, not me. i just said it does not harm to include them. just as a pol would give a speech irish catholic church he can do the same at a hispanic catholic church. ;D

now you are attempting to run from your own words son.....
these are your words "you may not like it but hispanics are americans too"....asking for nothing more than honesty son, is this conversation beyond your current abilities....

i will accept your silence as a reverberating yes.....

Conley
07-12-2011, 02:17 PM
what was the question ??? ;D

GRUMPY
07-12-2011, 06:39 PM
what was the question ??? ;D

this is weak, even by your standards.....next time you decide to make a snarky comment and employ the race card try to have the integrety to stand by your own words son....by the way there is no question to be asked, you have revealed enough of your making already....