Germany gives 'third gender' option on birth certificates

[Kabuki Joe]

...reverse Darwinism at it's finest!...

http://now.msn.com/third-gender-now-an-option-on-german-birth-certificates

[Ravi]

...reverse Darwinism at it's finest!...

http://now.msn.com/third-gender-now-an-option-on-german-birth-certificates

Why is this a problem? If you are born with two sets of genitals, who is supposed to decide what gender you are?

[junie]

Why is this a problem? If you are born with two sets of genitals, who is supposed to decide what gender you are?



good point. ambiguous genitalia is a medical reality...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003269.htm

[Mister D]

good point. ambiguous genitalia is a medical reality...

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003269.htm

So is Down syndrome. What's your point?

[Kabuki Joe]

Why is this a problem? If you are born with two sets of genitals, who is supposed to decide what gender you are?


...some men are born to be rapists, so what's the problem?...

[Common]

Why is this a problem? If you are born with two sets of genitals, who is supposed to decide what gender you are?


The title of the thread threw me I thought at first that a parent could list a son as a female if they wanted or vice versa.
In the case of a baby born with both genitals it makes more sense, but shouldnt they at least wait to assure BOTH genitals work. Once or the other could be useless so if the male genitalia is functional and the females isnt and you made him a girl. See my point ? or is it jibberish lol

[Kabuki Joe]

The title of the thread threw me I thought at first that a parent could list a son as a female if they wanted or vice versa.
In the case of a baby born with both genitals it makes more sense, but shouldnt they at least wait to assure BOTH genitals work. Once or the other could be useless so if the male genitalia is functional and the females isnt and you made him a girl. See my point ? or is it jibberish lol


...or let the child grow up and decide for itself?...

[Ravi]

...some men are born to be rapists, so what's the problem?...

I don't even want to know why you would equate this with rape.

[Ravi]

The title of the thread threw me I thought at first that a parent could list a son as a female if they wanted or vice versa.
In the case of a baby born with both genitals it makes more sense, but shouldnt they at least wait to assure BOTH genitals work. Once or the other could be useless so if the male genitalia is functional and the females isnt and you made him a girl. See my point ? or is it jibberish lol

I see your point. I don't know if that is the case, that only one set works. Thankfully, I've never had to deal with it.

[Kabuki Joe]

I don't even want to know why you would equate this with rape.

...because you keep preaching about being born a certain way and accepting it...as long as it's something you agree with...either use the justification of "born that way" for everyone and everything or don't use it at all...it's like the excuse "well it happens in nature so it must be 'natural'"...there's a lot of stuff that happens in nature that people like you say "but that's different" to...so in my opinion you are dishonest, not an attack but an observation...

[Dr. Who]

So is Down syndrome. What's your point?
So, do you think that the parents or a doctor should arbitrarily choose their gender for them?

[roadmaster]

...reverse Darwinism at it's finest!...

http://now.msn.com/third-gender-now-an-option-on-german-birth-certificates This only happens one in many millions and they know what they are. Gays are trying to push this idea that they are like this. In fact I have never witnessed one. May be 20 in the whole world.

[Dr. Who]

This only happens one in many millions and they know what they are. Gays are trying to push this idea that they are like this. In fact I have never witnessed one. May be 20 in the whole world.The incidence is much higher than that. Approximately one in every 1,000 or 1 in every 2,000 births.

4 percent of all live births are intersexual.

"In "The Five Sexes" I reported an estimate by a psychologist expert in the treatment of intersexuals, suggesting that some 4 percent of all live births are intersexual. Then, together with a group of Brown University undergraduates, I set out to conduct the first systematic assessment of the available data on intersexual birthrates. We scoured the medical literature for estimates of the frequency of various categories of intersexuality, from additional chromosomes to mixed gonads, hormones and genitalia. For some conditions we could find only anecdotal evidence; for most, however, numbers exist. On the basis of that evidence, we calculated that for every 1,000 children born, seventeen are intersexual in some form. That number--1.7 percent--is a ballpark estimate, not a precise count, though we believe it is more accurate than the 4 percent I reported.

Our figure represents all chromosomal, anatomical and hormonal exceptions to the dimorphic ideal; the number of intersexuals who might, potentially, be subject to surgery as infants is smaller--probably between one in 1,000 and one in 2,000 live births. Furthermore, because some populations possess the relevant genes at high frequency, the intersexual birthrate is not uniform throughout the world.

Consider, for instance, the gene for congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). When the CAH gene is inherited from both parents, it leads to a baby with masculinized external genitalia who possesses two X chromosomes and the internal reproductive organs of a potentially fertile woman. The frequency of the gene varies widely around the world: in New Zealand it occurs in only forty-three children per million; among the Yupik Eskimo of southwestern Alaska, its frequency is 3,500 per million.

Intersexuality has always been to some extent a matter of definition. And in the past century physicians have been the ones who defined children as intersexual--and provided the remedies. When only the chromosomes are unusual, but the external genitalia and gonads clearly indicate either a male or a female, physicians do not advocate intervention. Indeed, it is not clear what kind of intervention could be advocated in such cases. But the story is quite different when infants are born with mixed genitalia, or with external genitals that seem at odds with the baby's gonads. Most clinics now specializing in the treatment of intersex babies rely on case-management principles developed in the 1950s by the psychologist John Money and the psychiatrists Joan G. Hampson and John L. Hampson, all of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. Money believed that gender identity is completely malleable for about eighteen months after birth. Thus, he argued, when a treatment team is presented with an infant who has ambiguous genitalia, the team could make a gender assignment solely on the basis of what made the best surgical sense. The physicians could then simply encourage the parents to raise the child according to the surgically assigned gender. Following that course, most physicians maintained, would eliminate psychological distress for both the patient and the parents. Indeed, treatment teams were never to use such words as "intersex" or "hermaphrodite"; instead, they were to tell parents that nature intended the baby to be the boy or the girl that the physicians had determined it was. Through surgery, the physicians were merely completing nature's intention."

Source: http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm

[Mister D]

So, do you think that the parents or a doctor should arbitrarily choose their gender for them?

no more than he would choose their Down syndrome.

[Mister D]

The incidence is much higher than that. Approximately one in every 1,000 or 1 in every 2,000 births.

4 percent of all live births are intersexual.

"In "The Five Sexes" I reported an estimate by a psychologist expert in the treatment of intersexuals, suggesting that some 4 percent of all live births are intersexual. Then, together with a group of Brown University undergraduates, I set out to conduct the first systematic assessment of the available data on intersexual birthrates. We scoured the medical literature for estimates of the frequency of various categories of intersexuality, from additional chromosomes to mixed gonads, hormones and genitalia. For some conditions we could find only anecdotal evidence; for most, however, numbers exist. On the basis of that evidence, we calculated that for every 1,000 children born, seventeen are intersexual in some form. That number--1.7 percent--is a ballpark estimate, not a precise count, though we believe it is more accurate than the 4 percent I reported.

Our figure represents all chromosomal, anatomical and hormonal exceptions to the dimorphic ideal; the number of intersexuals who might, potentially, be subject to surgery as infants is smaller--probably between one in 1,000 and one in 2,000 live births. Furthermore, because some populations possess the relevant genes at high frequency, the intersexual birthrate is not uniform throughout the world.

Consider, for instance, the gene for congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). When the CAH gene is inherited from both parents, it leads to a baby with masculinized external genitalia who possesses two X chromosomes and the internal reproductive organs of a potentially fertile woman. The frequency of the gene varies widely around the world: in New Zealand it occurs in only forty-three children per million; among the Yupik Eskimo of southwestern Alaska, its frequency is 3,500 per million.

Intersexuality has always been to some extent a matter of definition. And in the past century physicians have been the ones who defined children as intersexual--and provided the remedies. When only the chromosomes are unusual, but the external genitalia and gonads clearly indicate either a male or a female, physicians do not advocate intervention. Indeed, it is not clear what kind of intervention could be advocated in such cases. But the story is quite different when infants are born with mixed genitalia, or with external genitals that seem at odds with the baby's gonads. Most clinics now specializing in the treatment of intersex babies rely on case-management principles developed in the 1950s by the psychologist John Money and the psychiatrists Joan G. Hampson and John L. Hampson, all of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. Money believed that gender identity is completely malleable for about eighteen months after birth. Thus, he argued, when a treatment team is presented with an infant who has ambiguous genitalia, the team could make a gender assignment solely on the basis of what made the best surgical sense. The physicians could then simply encourage the parents to raise the child according to the surgically assigned gender. Following that course, most physicians maintained, would eliminate psychological distress for both the patient and the parents. Indeed, treatment teams were never to use such words as "intersex" or "hermaphrodite"; instead, they were to tell parents that nature intended the baby to be the boy or the girl that the physicians had determined it was. Through surgery, the physicians were merely completing nature's intention."

Source: http://www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5sexesrevisited.htm

[Dr. Who]

no more than he would choose their Down syndrome.
So what's the problem with the third gender on a birth certificate? Perhaps it should really state "to be advised".

[Kabuki Joe]

So what's the problem with the third gender on a birth certificate? Perhaps it should really state "to be advised".


...gender and biological sex are different, gender is mental, biological sex is physical...if you have both internal and external plumbing, then it should be hermaphrodite...

[jillian]

...gender and biological sex are different, gender is mental, biological sex is physical...if you have both internal and external plumbing, then it should be hermaphrodite...

you don't know a thing about transgendered people or gays, do you?

[Mister D]

So what's the problem with the third gender on a birth certificate? Perhaps it should really state "to be advised".

The genetic sex would do just fine. Undetermined would work too.

[Kabuki Joe]

you don't know a thing about transgendered people or gays, do you?


...I know this, if you have a penis you are a biological male, if you have a vagina you are a biological female and if you have both you are a hermaphrodite...this is biology...anthropology says that a male (biological sex) doesn't need to be a man (gender) and vice-versa a female (biological sex) doesn't need to be a woman (gender)...I've learned both of these things through science while you learned everything from watching the view...and maybe Ellen...

[Ravi]

...because you keep preaching about being born a certain way and accepting it...as long as it's something you agree with...either use the justification of "born that way" for everyone and everything or don't use it at all...it's like the excuse "well it happens in nature so it must be 'natural'"...there's a lot of stuff that happens in nature that people like you say "but that's different" to...so in my opinion you are dishonest, not an attack but an observation...
Don't worry, I won't report you for your attack. IF you are born with something that doesn't cause harm to someone else then government control should not be an issue.

[Kabuki Joe]

Don't worry, I won't report you for your attack. IF you are born with something that doesn't cause harm to someone else then government control should not be an issue.


...first off I don't care if you report me for pointing out you are picking and choosing what to use in a debate...it's ok if your only recourse is to call it an attack instead of an opportunity to disprove my claim...I don't really know when this forum started getting sensitive about heated debate but I think it's dropped down in quality when someone thinks everything is an attack...waters down the forum imo...