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Ravi
09-22-2013, 05:14 AM
BS, Marie, it has been shown here repeatedly that a small fraction of the prisoners are in private prisons and you know it.

Why are you trying to sell this lie again to the newcomers? Did you think we'd let you get away with it?



http://www.propublica.org/article/by-the-numbers-the-u.s.s-growing-for-profit-detention-industry[/FONT][/COLOR]

One, I've never been involved in a discussion of this topic on this forum so I don't know what you are on about.

Two, you've linked me to an article that shows the growth of the private prison industry. Funny.

Three, this article doesn't even count county jails.


To the point: prison is a money making opportunity. Privatizing prison is the wrong direction.

Better would be not incarcerating non-violent criminals, including illegal immigrants.

patrickt
09-22-2013, 07:24 AM
Other than the tremendous track record for success demonstrated by the government, what would your objections be to a privatized prison system?

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:31 AM
Other than the tremendous track record for success demonstrated by the government, what would your objections be to a privatized prison system?

Because it is open to abuse....

Mainecoons
09-22-2013, 07:34 AM
And the public one isn't?

:rofl:

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:37 AM
And the public one isn't?

:rofl:

Possibly. Something uncouth about making prisons a profit making business. The govt run the justice system, they should be the ones to run the prison system...

bladimz
09-22-2013, 07:40 AM
Imagine: Publicly-funded servants of the law (cops) arrest the offender, jail him and hold him for a publicly-funded trial, overseen by a publicly-funded judge. Then, if found guilty, the offender is sentenced to time in a privately-owned prison. What about this makes sense to you. Don't you see the inconsistency here. Don't you see the huge opportunity for abuse of the legal process, not to mention a link of corruption between the public authority and the private ownership??

No. Privatizing prisons is a piss-poor idea.

kilgram
09-22-2013, 07:46 AM
And the public one isn't?

:rofl:
Private prisons need prisoners to get profits.

Private prisons work for profits, imagine that.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 07:48 AM
Imagine: Publicly-funded servants of the law (cops) arrest the offender, jail him and hold him for a publicly-funded trial, overseen by a publicly-funded judge. Then, if found guilty, the offender is sentenced to time in a privately-owned prison. What about this makes sense to you. Don't you see the inconsistency here. Don't you see the huge opportunity for abuse of the legal process, not to mention a link of corruption between the public authority and the private ownership??

No. Privatizing prisons is a piss-poor idea.

If you like high incarceration rates with low rehabilitation all on the backs of the taxpayer, public prison is your shtick.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 07:51 AM
Howdy all! I work in corrections at the federal level and have worked the state and county level. First and foremost, it is one of the most bloated systems in government. In Indiana, corrections is one of the largest budget items, surpassing education by a great deal (sorry, I don't have the figures in front of me to give a more accurate description).

As for private prisons, this can be beneficial to taxpayers. I, however, take issue with how they are ran. Anyone who has ever had a business or knows what a business is can tell you that to stay in business, you have to cut costs. In the correctional system, cost is not factored in (in theory) when it comes to security. Private prisons may have this happen. I know the first riot in over 50 years in Indiana was caused by a private company running a prison. They were hiring individuals in key positions, such as Correctional Captain, Lt., etc. with little more than a few years experience. In addition, they were lax on consistent security. In their defense, Indiana made a horrible agreement with Arizona to take some of their most dangerous inmates and transported them to a prison where they could receive no visits (because of the distance, it was determined to be infeasible that visits would happen) and then placed them in a facility that was inadequate to house them (security wise) and placed them under private industry custody.

Now, I think there is a great deal that could be done to improve our correctional system. First and foremost, the idea of housing inmates for non-violent crimes is out. They can go on probation and pay restitution, fine. But housing a person for having pot on them at an average cost of $58,000 a year (federal average per inmate/year) is dumb. Second, this idea that inmates have a "right" to so many things is gone. Well, they have a "right" to cable TV. They have a "right" to education, etc. NO, they don't! Prisons are for violent offenders. The TV will be local stations only and that which the prison can get via antenna. Sorry, tax payers aren't paying for you to have TV shows anymore.

In addition, inmates will work. And going into a kitchen and "working" for two or four hours making food you consume is not work. No, they will be the ones repairing roads, cleaning ditches, etc. This saves tax dollars on paying people to stand around making $16+ an hour and inmates are helping pay their way. Oh and don't worry about how "dangerous" they are and escape; all guards will be trained in marksmanship and the first one to run will be shot to stop. And before someone says it, I don't have a problem with inmates. Anyone that works in a prison can tell you, most have no beef with you and I have none with them.

There are some other things as well, but I have ranted enough.

By the way, nice picture if that is you Marie.

bladimz
09-22-2013, 08:05 AM
If you like high incarceration rates with low rehabilitation all on the backs of the taxpayer, public prison is your shtick.If you want your prisoner (found guilty by virtue of a public court) peddled to the the prison with the lowest bid, like at a cattle auction, have at it. After all, there's no chance of any back-room, palm-greasing, now is there. By the way, who'd foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility?

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:09 AM
By the way, who'd foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility?

Bingo...

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:09 AM
If you want your prisoner (found guilty by virtue of a public court) peddled to the the prison with the lowest bid, like at a cattle auction, have at it. After all, there's no chance of any back-room, palm-greasing, now is there. By the way, who'd foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility?

The person making the contract with the correctional facility. If you aren't already aware of how private prisons make money, it's probably safe to assume you aren't aware how the system would work, either.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 08:09 AM
If you want your prisoner (found guilty by virtue of a public court) peddled to the the prison with the lowest bid, like at a cattle auction, have at it. After all, there's no chance of any back-room, palm-greasing, now is there. By the way, who'd foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility?

Valid point. I must say, however, the current "justice" system already has people corralled much like cattle at auction.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:12 AM
The person making the contract with the correctional facility. If you aren't already aware of how private prisons make money, it's probably safe to assume you aren't aware how the system would work, either.

His point obviously went sailing over your ego-laden head....

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:14 AM
His point obviously went sailing over your ego-laden head....

What point would that be? He wanted to know who would foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility. I've already told him.

Which part of that did you not understand?

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:15 AM
What point would that be? He wanted to know who would foot the bill for the prisoner in a privately owned facility. I've already told him.

Which part of that did you not understand?

In both cases the public pays. You do get that, right?

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:17 AM
In both cases the public pays. You do get that, right?

Not really. That generally depends on the contractual agreement. Any poor performance is deducted from the original contract, in which the tax payer must make up the difference.

At least, that's how it works back home. Yanks have never been interested in following successful models.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:20 AM
Not really. That generally depends on the contractual agreement. Any poor performance is deducted from the original contract, in which the tax payer must make up the difference.

At least, that's how it works back home. Yanks have never been interested in following successful models.

No, in both cases the public pays. Your taxes pay if it is a govt run prison. Your taxes pay if it is a privatey-run prison. Who do you think pays the owners of the private prisons? Prisoners and their families? No, the local, state or federal govts do, and they get their monies from....?

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:30 AM
No, in both cases the public pays. Your taxes pay if it is a govt run prison. Your taxes pay if it is a privatey-run prison. Who do you think pays the owners of the private prisons? Prisoners and their families? No, the local, state or federal govts do, and they get their monies from....?

Wrong. Private Prisons make money through contracts and quotas. Some of those contracts may be entered with Governments as well, however, your tax dollars are not funded to run the prison, but to house inmate.

Show me where your tax revenue are allocated towards privately owned prisons. Preferable from a government outlays and receipt statement.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:39 AM
Wrong. Private Prisons make money through contracts and quotas. Some of those contracts may be entered with Governments as well, however, your tax dollars are not funded to run the prison, but to house inmate.

Show me where your tax revenue are allocated towards privately owned prisons. Preferable from a government outlays and receipt statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate for each prisoner confined in the facility.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 08:45 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate for each prisoner confined in the facility.

Wikipedia, err...

Even public prisons do this. The state pays a county jail to hold an inmate that they cannot house or some other reason. In a sense, the public system does much the same.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:45 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate for each prisoner confined in the facility.

Try again. All you've done was cite a wikipedia article explaining what I have already explained. Aside from the fact that you didn't provide what I have asked for.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:50 AM
Wikipedia, err...

Even public prisons do this. The state pays a county jail to hold an inmate that they cannot house or some other reason. In a sense, the public system does much the same.

That is my point. Try telling AT...

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 08:51 AM
Try again. All you've done was cite a wikipedia article explaining what I have already explained. Aside from the fact that you didn't provide what I have asked for.

I said the government pays either way. You said they didn't and it was via contracts and quotas. My link says they do. Make up your mind what you are saying - or be more clear - and then get back to me...

Common
09-22-2013, 09:01 AM
Privitized prisons are failing most everywhere, recently in florida a judge ruled them incompetent. Prison violence is up in privitized prisons as well as assaults on staff and destructive rioting. In the end you save nothing.
You can compare prison staffing in privitized facilities to privitized police and firemen who are ill trained and ill equipted and to far underpaid to perform or even care about their jobs.


The Failing Private Prison Experiment'http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2013/04/the-failing-private-prison-experiment-2505886.html

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:03 AM
I said the government pays either way. You said they didn't and it was via contracts and quotas. My link says they do. Make up your mind what you are saying - or be more clear - and then get back to me...

I was pretty clear and I don't see how it's my fault that you didn't read what I have already written. I've already established that governments can pay private prisoners to house inmates, not to run the prison. You claimed that tax payer money is used to run privately owned prisons. I've asked you to show me how tax revenue is allocated to privately owned prisons for the purposes of operating.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 09:10 AM
I was pretty clear and I don't see how it's my fault that you didn't read what I have already written. I've already established that governments can pay private prisoners to house inmates, not to run the prison. You claimed that tax payer money is used to run privately owned prisons. I've asked you to show me how tax revenue is allocated to privately owned prisons for the purposes of operating.

Are you saying that the money given to private prisons per diem by govts for the prisoners isn't used for running them? What is your definition of using the money to run the prison? So what do the use the money given to them for? Bingo?

BTW, you sound suspiciously like Chris. I think you might be his sock. Just putting it on record.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 09:15 AM
I was pretty clear and I don't see how it's my fault that you didn't read what I have already written. I've already established that governments can pay private prisoners to house inmates, not to run the prison. You claimed that tax payer money is used to run privately owned prisons. I've asked you to show me how tax revenue is allocated to privately owned prisons for the purposes of operating.

Tax payers have to pay the contract. The private prison will bid for X amount of inmates at a cost of $N and the total $Z is what the state (in most cases) pays them. Then they use these dollars for the prison and try to cut costs further, despite having a profit already built into the contract, to make even more money. In the end, tax payers are still paying for the item, but of less quality.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:21 AM
Are you saying that the money given to private prisons per diem by govts for the prisons isn't used for running them? What is your definition of using the money to run the prison? So what do the use the money given to them for? Bingo?

There is something called 'administrative cost' and there is also something called 'operation cost.' Operation cost are expenses to the business itself, such as rent, utilities, etc. Administration cost are the cost of general services, such as accounting and contracts. If the money is contractually given to house an inmate, it's for the purposes of that inmate. It's no different from running a school.


BTW, you sound suspiciously like Chris. I think you might be his sock. Just putting it on record.

You're free to think whatever you like.

bladimz
09-22-2013, 09:26 AM
I think a strong case against privately-run prisons has been made. However, the judicial system has got to eliminate the idea of arrest and conviction of the every-day pot-user (not merchants at this point), for obvious reasons.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:26 AM
Tax payers have to pay the contract. The private prison will bid for X amount of inmates at a cost of $N and the total $Z is what the state (in most cases) pays them. Then they use these dollars for the prison and try to cut costs further, despite having a profit already built into the contract, to make even more money.

And what is the less quality being received?

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 09:27 AM
There is something called 'administrative cost' and there is also something called 'operation cost.' Operation cost are expenses to the business itself, such as rent, utilities, etc. Administration cost are the cost of general services, such as accounting and contracts. If the money is contractually given to house an inmate, it's for the purposes of that inmate. It's no different from running a school.



You're free to think whatever you like.

While true, when the private prison puts the bid in the amount is to cover ALL costs (administrative and operating). Thus, all you have just said are still paid by the tax payers. Surely you don't believe that a private company (prison or otherwise) is going to absorb any costs in a contract, especially one that is with the government.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 09:34 AM
And what is the less quality being received?

It is obviously you have not been to a private prison or seen their operation. As all businesses, they exist for profit and will cut costs any way they can. This is typically achieved by inadequate medical care and food. I agree prisons should not be the Comfort Inn, but humane standards must be kept as well, despite the profit margin.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:37 AM
While true, when the private prison puts the bid in the amount is to cover ALL costs (administrative and operating). Thus, all you have just said are still paid by the tax payers.

The contracts given for the particular item and the cost to house an inmate are two different things. Selling goods or services is how businesses stay afloat, however, resources are allocated for particular purposes. Sales a given to recoup their cost of revenue. Everything after is merely paid to deal with administrative and operational cost.


Surely you don't believe that a private company (prison or otherwise) is going to absorb any costs in a contract, especially one that is with the government.
It's not what I believe, but what the financials show.

http://financials.morningstar.com/income-statement/is.html?t=CXW&region=USA&culture=en-US

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:39 AM
It is obviously you have not been to a private prison or seen their operation. As all businesses, they exist for profit and will cut costs any way they can. This is typically achieved by inadequate medical care and food. I agree prisons should not be the Comfort Inn, but humane standards must be kept as well, despite the profit margin.

Irrelevant. All that matters is the output.

How is the output inferior to that of state penitentiaries, must less any different?

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 09:44 AM
Irrelevant. All that matters is the output.

How is the output inferior to that of state penitentiaries, must less any different?


Yes, you are totally right. I only spent two years working with the state organizing these very contracts, but you know so much more than I concerning privatized prisons. Heaven forbid actual experience outweigh any web source.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:53 AM
Yes, you are totally right. I only spent two years working with the state organizing these very contracts, but you know so much more than I concerning privatized prisons. Heaven forbid actual experience outweigh any web source.

I don't claim to have experience, however, output is generally the only thing that matters when determining the quality and effectiveness of any particular model.

Chris
09-22-2013, 09:54 AM
Yes, you are totally right. I only spent two years working with the state organizing these very contracts, but you know so much more than I concerning privatized prisons. Heaven forbid actual experience outweigh any web source.



Problem is you are just presenting your view of things, just like anyone else. Appealing to authority, especially one's own, just doesn't cut it. Either you have an argument to present or you don't.


I would venture to say it stands to reason private prisons would have a better outcome simply because their is a measurable profit motive. In order to profit, you have to produce. The problem with public prisons is the lack of any motive to succeed.

Chris
09-22-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't claim to have experience, however, output is generally the only thing that matters when determining the quality and effectiveness of any particular model.



You may be trying to pit an economic view of this against one based on emotionalism where intent not means or ends matter.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 09:57 AM
Also, not withstanding and personal anecdotes, I'm a Stock Broker. And one of my many roles as a broker is to sit on my arse for nearly 11 hours a day and determine whether or not the fundamentals of any particular company is worth holding a long or short position in.

So when it comes to any particular model (especially business), the output is what must matter.

junie
09-22-2013, 10:09 AM
The contracts given for the particular item and the cost to house an inmate are two different things. Selling goods or services is how businesses stay afloat, however, resources are allocated for particular purposes. Sales a given to recoup their cost of revenue. Everything after is merely paid to deal with administrative and operational cost.


It's not what I believe, but what the financials show.

http://financials.morningstar.com/income-statement/is.html?t=CXW&region=USA&culture=en-US



your link doesn't 'show' anything...

you're talking around in circles and avoiding that happy and randy are correct in what they said...

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:12 AM
your link doesn't 'show' anything...

It doesn't say anything, if you don't know how to read corporate financial statements.


you're talking around in circles and avoiding that happy and randy are correct in what they said...

Which was?

junie
09-22-2013, 10:16 AM
It doesn't say anything, if you don't know how to read corporate financial statements, that is...



Which was?


aah, but i do know how to read them...

do you know how to read happy and randy's posts?

Chris
09-22-2013, 10:20 AM
aah, but i do know how to read them...

do you know how to read happy and randy's posts?



Well, then, junie, tell us what the data say? And "Which was?" was a request for you to explain happy's and randy's posts. Contribute...

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:20 AM
aah, but i do know how to read them...

Great! So what can you tell about how the Corrections Corporations of America is operating from their financial statement?


do you know how to read happy and randy's posts?

I read your post, didn't I?

Mister D
09-22-2013, 10:23 AM
If there is a problem it's in our drug laws. Who cares if violent felons are in a public or private prison?

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 10:25 AM
Problem is you are just presenting your view of things, just like anyone else. Appealing to authority, especially one's own, just doesn't cut it. Either you have an argument to present or you don't.


I would venture to say it stands to reason private prisons would have a better outcome simply because their is a measurable profit motive. In order to profit, you have to produce. The problem with public prisons is the lack of any motive to succeed.

Ask Correction Corp. how well that worked out in Indiana. Their outcome was the first riot in the state in 50 years. What they produced was sub-par results, many of which were direct violations of the contract and state law. My point of view comes based on experience in the industry.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:26 AM
If there is a problem it's in our drug laws. Who cares if violent felons are in a public or private prison?

Apparently, it's suppose to matter whether or not prisoners are treated better in a private institution rather than a public facility. Not reformation or rehabilitation...

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 10:28 AM
No, it matters on cost. Private prisons are fine for cost in the beginning, but they tend to go up every year. And it really doesn't matter what our opinions are of public or private prisons. Until the root issue in the "justice" system is addressed and solutions enacted, we are chasing each other in circles.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 10:29 AM
Oh and treatment of prisoners is a huge issue. Take away their TV and watch how quickly you are sued and they WIN, thus costing tax payers thousands from the case and someone their job.

Mister D
09-22-2013, 10:30 AM
Apparently, it's suppose to matter whether or not prisoners are treated better in a private institution rather than a public facility.

To be sure, American prisons are awful. The folks at Gitmo don't know how good they have it. They really do need reform, IMO. That said, if we want to cut down on non-violent offenders lets reconsider our drug policy. Private prisons are not the problem.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:34 AM
Oh and treatment of prisoners is a huge issue. Take away their TV and watch how quickly you are sued and they WIN, thus costing tax payers thousands from the case and someone their job.

The treatment of prisons is a systemic issue, not a fundamental issue. Cons will always take great pleasure in knowing all of comforts and luxuries of the general population await them on the other side. The system requires reform, not pandering to.

As what one can expect from having the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 10:38 AM
The treatment of prisons is a systemic issue, not a fundamental issue. Cons will always take great pleasure in knowing all of comforts and luxuries of the general population await them on the other side. The system requires reform, not pandering to.

As what one can expect from having the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

You would be surprised how well life inside a prison truly is.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 10:39 AM
To be sure, American prisons are awful. The folks at Gitmo don't know how good they have it. They really do need reform, IMO. That said, if we want to cut down on non-violent offenders lets reconsider our drug policy. Private prisons are not the problem.

Agreed!

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:52 AM
You would be surprised how well life inside a prison truly is.

We imprison more people than autocracy nations like China, and somehow with a third of their population.

I'm sure it's very horrible...

Chris
09-22-2013, 10:54 AM
Ask Correction Corp. how well that worked out in Indiana. Their outcome was the first riot in the state in 50 years. What they produced was sub-par results, many of which were direct violations of the contract and state law. My point of view comes based on experience in the industry.

I'm sure there are some failures, but that doesn't make an argument against private prisons. You can't possibly say public prisons don't have riots.



Your expertise will be establish not in the claims you make to it but the arguments you make.

jillian
09-22-2013, 10:54 AM
your link doesn't 'show' anything...

you're talking around in circles and avoiding that happy and randy are correct in what they said...

shocking

Chris
09-22-2013, 10:55 AM
Explain this contradiction:

D "To be sure, American prisons are awful."

Randy "Agreed!"

Randy "You would be surprised how well life inside a prison truly is."

???

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 10:57 AM
He's being sarcastic...

And where did junie go? He/She/It was suppose to show me how well she can understand Corporate Financial Statements.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:00 AM
I'm sure there are some failures, but that doesn't make an argument against private prisons. You can't possibly say public prisons don't have riots.



Your expertise will be establish not in the claims you make to it but the arguments you make.

Did you read my first post about the riot? I good deal fell on CCA for their poor management. They were hiring people to senior positions with less than five years experience, most of that in county jails (which operate differently than a prison). I'm not saying all private prisons are bad, but I do believe we cannot simply look at this from the point of view of economics and government. There are some things I think are government-only functions. I wouldn't want a private police force, as they are more likely to be corrupted by the greenback. I also hold the same for prisons. As I said in an earlier post, we are chasing each other around with this argument. Why not argue how to reduce our prison populations, regardless of private or public or how to better manage the system? To be frank, private prisons are a small percentage and typically over-looked. Most I know of are county-sized jails that are privately run. There are an increasing number of private facilities at the state prison level and thus the issues are coming to light because the tactics and operations of a jail are not necessarily compatible to the larger state prison level, some exceptions understood of course.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:01 AM
Explain this contradiction:

D "To be sure, American prisons are awful."

Randy "Agreed!"

Randy "You would be surprised how well life inside a prison truly is."

???

I was agreeing with the last part of his post, not that prisons are awful. They are nothing what is seen on TV and there are a great number of amenities that somehow have become freaking "rights".

I should have clarified. My apologies.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:04 AM
He's being sarcastic...

And where did junie go? He/She/It was suppose to show me how well she can understand Corporate Financial Statements.

My dear, I typically state it at the end of a statement if I am being sarcastic. I wasn't in my statement of how well they have it.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 11:05 AM
I was agreeing with the last part of his post, not that prisons are awful. They are nothing what is seen on TV and there are a great number of amenities that somehow have become freaking "rights".

I should have clarified. My apologies.

Just about any inmate can claim that something violates their constitutional rights. It's sad, which is why the output of a private institution are suitable for the purposes of punishment.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:08 AM
Just about any inmate can claim that something violates their constitutional rights. It's sad, which is why the output of a private institution are suitable for the purposes of punishment.

How? This doesn't negate and inmate's ability to claim foul and it doesn't negate the private prison any more than it does public in how courts react to the claim.

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 11:11 AM
In both cases the public pays. You do get that, right?

Yep! they just pay less when they send them to a private institution? Go figure?

Alyosha
09-22-2013, 11:11 AM
I work in the legal system. Corrections comes at the end, so to blame the DOC for the amount of prisoners is silly. Legislators, prosecutors, and enforcement/investigators get the responsibility for that. Being a contractor is different than being a standalone private industry. There are cost points and other "benefits" to consider. They have no incentive to parole people or cut costs because once they have the contract they make more money by keeping people in the system.

IF there were competing prisons, each offering services then you would see the lowering of costs and free markets, but as it is it's like any other government contract where they get it for a period of time and get that contract based on how well the proposal was written, if it meets the points requirements and other stupidity that goes into government contract awards. It is not results oriented.

If we moved to a system where each county has a choice between Prison A, B, C, and D you'll see costs lowered. Until then it's just going to be an expensive corporatist system.

Chris
09-22-2013, 11:12 AM
Did you read my first post about the riot? I good deal fell on CCA for their poor management. They were hiring people to senior positions with less than five years experience, most of that in county jails (which operate differently than a prison). I'm not saying all private prisons are bad, but I do believe we cannot simply look at this from the point of view of economics and government. There are some things I think are government-only functions. I wouldn't want a private police force, as they are more likely to be corrupted by the greenback. I also hold the same for prisons. As I said in an earlier post, we are chasing each other around with this argument. Why not argue how to reduce our prison populations, regardless of private or public or how to better manage the system? To be frank, private prisons are a small percentage and typically over-looked. Most I know of are county-sized jails that are privately run. There are an increasing number of private facilities at the state prison level and thus the issues are coming to light because the tactics and operations of a jail are not necessarily compatible to the larger state prison level, some exceptions understood of course.

The guards in county jail here are almost all raw recruits. Same difference.


I do believe we cannot simply look at this from the point of view of economics and government.

Right, outcomes.


There are some things I think are government-only functions.

Great question to ask. Can't be answered by personal preferences though.


I wouldn't want a private police force, as they are more likely to be corrupted by the greenback.

Well we're all familiar with crony capitalistic corruption. Why would a private police force risk ruining reputation when that's at least in part determines whether it's hired. What incentive does a public police force have to avoid corruption?

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 11:12 AM
How? This doesn't negate and inmate's ability to claim foul and it doesn't negate the private prison any more than it does public in how courts react to the claim.

As cost are allocated towards the inmates themselves, and cost increase every year, there is a great incentive for rehabilitation and reform.

Chris
09-22-2013, 11:13 AM
I was agreeing with the last part of his post, not that prisons are awful. They are nothing what is seen on TV and there are a great number of amenities that somehow have become freaking "rights".

I should have clarified. My apologies.



OK, thanks for explaining.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:14 AM
I work in the legal system. Corrections comes at the end, so to blame the DOC for the amount of prisoners is silly. Legislators, prosecutors, and enforcement/investigators get the responsibility for that. Being a contractor is different than being a standalone private industry. There are cost points and other "benefits" to consider. They have no incentive to parole people or cut costs because once they have the contract they make more money by keeping people in the system.

IF there were competing prisons, each offering services then you would see the lowering of costs and free markets, but as it is it's like any other government contract where they get it for a period of time and get that contract based on how well the proposal was written, if it meets the points requirements and other stupidity that goes into government contract awards. It is not results oriented.

If we moved to a system where each county has a choice between Prison A, B, C, and D you'll see costs lowered. Until then it's just going to be an expensive corporatist system.

If we truly want to lower costs, we need to eliminate laws that serve nothing more than the enslavement of people. Yes, I am talking about legalization of marijuana. Another option is to re-write laws that pertain to non-violent offenses to ensure that prison isn't an option for them. It is far more costly to the taxpayer.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:16 AM
As cost are allocated towards the inmates themselves, and cost increase every year, there is a great incentive for rehabilitation and reform.

Re-entry is the focus of nearly every system now, primarily because it has helped significantly lower further offending. Even with re-entry (i.e. rehab/reform if you will), there is still an increase. That is why we should focus on things we can afford to cut.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:18 AM
The guards in county jail here are almost all raw recruits. Same difference.



Right, outcomes.



Great question to ask. Can't be answered by personal preferences though.



Well we're all familiar with crony capitalistic corruption. Why would a private police force risk ruining reputation when that's at least in part determines whether it's hired. What incentive does a public police force have to avoid corruption?

I'm not referring to jailers working ranges. I'm talking about supervisors; those that are supposed to be have the knowledge and experience to manage training and correctional development procedures for staff and inmate. But I see the point you are alluding too.

I must ask, and excuse the intrusion, but where would you describe yourself in a political sense? And I don't care about parties, as both are useless.

jillian
09-22-2013, 11:20 AM
Re-entry is the focus of nearly every system now, primarily because it has helped significantly lower further offending. Even with re-entry (i.e. rehab/reform if you will), there is still an increase. That is why we should focus on things we can afford to cut.

or we could decriminalize things for which people shouldn't be spending time in jail.

Chris
09-22-2013, 11:22 AM
I'm not referring to jailers working ranges. I'm talking about supervisors; those that are supposed to be have the knowledge and experience to manage training and correctional development procedures for staff and inmate. But I see the point you are alluding too.

I must ask, and excuse the intrusion, but where would you describe yourself in a political sense? And I don't care about parties, as both are useless.


Libertarian with a lower case l. Which will explain my general position.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:22 AM
or we could decriminalize things for which people shouldn't be spending time in jail.

I agree as well, but that is not the topic at hand. In the larger scheme, decriminalization would prevent everything from the cost of arrest, prosecution, and jail/prison.

President Wayne
09-22-2013, 11:24 AM
Libertarian with a lower case l. Which will explain my general position.

I must admit, I suspected such with your comments. I recently left (somewhat forced) the Republican party because they don't represent me. I lean towards libertarianism, with a focus on the big L because they represent the liberty and values I hold true. Have yet to vote for them yet, but that is a discussion for another thread.

jillian
09-22-2013, 11:25 AM
I agree as well, but that is not the topic at hand. In the larger scheme, decriminalization would prevent everything from the cost of arrest, prosecution, and jail/prison.

yep.

as for the topic at hand, certain things shouldn't be privatized.... like prisons and doing background checks on government workers... particularly those who have access to classified information. it doesn't work out well. and there should never be a pecuniary incentive to imprison anyone, imo.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 11:32 AM
Re-entry is the focus of nearly every system now, primarily because it has helped significantly lower further offending. Even with re-entry (i.e. rehab/reform if you will), there is still an increase. That is why we should focus on things we can afford to cut.

There is an increase due to the large and active role in the Federal Government to enforce and legislate crime enforcement. A free nation shouldn't imprison so many people, and a fiscally responsible nation can't afford to.

Chris
09-22-2013, 11:55 AM
yep.

as for the topic at hand, certain things shouldn't be privatized.... like prisons and doing background checks on government workers... particularly those who have access to classified information. it doesn't work out well. and there should never be a pecuniary incentive to imprison anyone, imo.




certain things shouldn't be privatized

Why's that? What's the basis of your assumption?

The Xl
09-22-2013, 11:57 AM
There will be abuse so long as their is a profit to be made, public prison or private.

We need to scrap all laws that criminalize non-violent behavior, or at least, behavior without a victim, because the prison industrial complex and a whole host of special interests feed off of things like the drug war and the like.

Chris
09-22-2013, 12:03 PM
I must admit, I suspected such with your comments. I recently left (somewhat forced) the Republican party because they don't represent me. I lean towards libertarianism, with a focus on the big L because they represent the liberty and values I hold true. Have yet to vote for them yet, but that is a discussion for another thread.


I'm so disenchanted by partisan politics I refuse to even vote.

http://i.snag.gy/jRlPQ.jpg


So back to topic.... Beyond the mere principle of private having profit motive as incentive to drive it toward more success, I have nothing detailed to add, but will add one more observation that ought to be plain as day, and that's that privatization, as well as decriminalization, is inevitable as public funding dries up.

Good discussion so I'll sit back a while.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:07 PM
In most countries, crime is reacted to at the local or regional level, whereas the American government finances and legislates a significant portion of law enforcement at the national level.

If anything, it shows that the penal system isn't something the Federal Government can handle.

jillian
09-22-2013, 12:08 PM
In most countries, crime is reacted to at the local or regional level, whereas the American government finances and legislates a significant portion of law enforcement at the national level.

If anything, it shows that the penal system isn't something the Federal Government can handle.

the FBI and other "national law enforcement" isn't the reason for the overuse of our ciminal justice system.

Chris
09-22-2013, 12:16 PM
In most countries, crime is reacted to at the local or regional level, whereas the American government finances and legislates a significant portion of law enforcement at the national level.

If anything, it shows that the penal system isn't something the Federal Government can handle.



Agree, we need to get back to a more federalist system and in more areas than the penal system. Washington DC has grown Kafkaesque in its disconnect with the people.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:24 PM
the FBI and other "national law enforcement" isn't the reason for the overuse of our ciminal justice system.

And somehow Federal Prisons house more inmates than any other state in the Union. The political and bureaucratic structure of the criminal justice system creates perverse incentives to retroactively target those who are likely to commit said crime.

It's how we have the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) profiling young black males because they are more likely to participate in drugs. And why we have the IRS targeting individuals merely for donating to a political organisation which contain the word 'Freedom' or 'Tax' in it's title.

Alyosha
09-22-2013, 12:25 PM
the FBI and other "national law enforcement" isn't the reason for the overuse of our ciminal justice system.

Sure it is. DHS funds police departments now with military equipment and the Congress keep writing enough legislation to fill 3 walls floor to ceiling with federal law books. Almost everything is a crime now. It's surreal.

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 12:28 PM
Try again. All you've done was cite a wikipedia article explaining what I have already explained. Aside from the fact that you didn't provide what I have asked for.
Lets start with how private prisons receive financing for construction: http://www.publicbonds.org/prison_fin/prison_fin.htm

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:30 PM
Lets start with how private prisons receive financing for construction: http://www.publicbonds.org/prison_fin/prison_fin.htm

Are you skimming through sources again?

patrickt
09-22-2013, 12:36 PM
Because it is open to abuse....

Right. Unlike the government which is closed tight against abuse.

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 12:38 PM
Irrelevant. All that matters is the output.

How is the output inferior to that of state penitentiaries, must less any different?
What do you mean by output? Rate of recidivism?

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 12:39 PM
Are you skimming through sources again?
Is there something wrong with my source?

patrickt
09-22-2013, 12:41 PM
I just realized. For the leftists, private anything is anathema. Private banks, private oil companies, private property, private lives. Consider their position on private schools and how hard they'll work to keep poor kids from going to a private school.

No, private anything is a bad idea for liberals. No, public prisons are much better. Guards organizing fights. Prisoners being raped. Periodic exposure of skeletons of "escaped" prisoners. Government prisons are such a good system we can't possibly consider any change. Wow, it is like schools. The only change allowed is to spend more money on the same piss-poor system. Makes sense, to a liberal.

jillian
09-22-2013, 12:42 PM
Right. Unlike the government which is closed tight against abuse.

government prisons don't get money per head that is imprisoned. there is no incentive for imprisoning people needlessly.

case in point:



An American judge known for his harsh and autocratic courtroom manner was jailed for 28 years for conspiring with private prisons to hand young offenders maximum sentences in return for kickbacks amounting to millions of dollars.
Mark Ciavarella Jnr was ordered to pay $1.2m (£770,000) in restitution after he was found to be a “figurehead” in the conspiracy that saw thousands of children unjustly punished in the name of profit in the case that became known as “kids for cash”.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has overturned some 4,000 convictions issued by the former Luzerne County judge between 2003 and 2008, claiming he violated the constitutional rights of the juveniles – including the right to legal counsel and the right to intelligently enter a plea. Ciavarella Jnr, 61, was tried and convicted of racketeering charges earlier this year but his lawyers had asked for a “reasonable” sentence, claiming that he had already been punished enough



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-judge-receives-28year-jail-term-for-his-role-in--kidsforcash-kickbacks-8598147.html

there are certain things operated in the public interest which shouldn't be privatized.

jillian
09-22-2013, 12:42 PM
Is there something wrong with my source?

no. but it doesn't confirm her biases.

Chris
09-22-2013, 12:49 PM
no. but it doesn't confirm her biases.

What biases? Be specific and contribute something more than mere innuendo.



Who "Is there something wrong with my source?"

Not what was said in response to your post.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:51 PM
Is there something wrong with my source?

Nothing wrong with it. Just wanted to make sure you've read it. It's not uncommon for Private Prisons to invest in Muni-bonds. They're considered a financial asset. As of 2012, CXW has 251 in Receivables.

jillian
09-22-2013, 12:52 PM
Nothing wrong with it. Just wanted to make sure you've read it. It's not uncommon for Private Prisons to invest in Muni-bonds. They're considered a financial asset. As of 2012, CXW has 251 in Receivables.

and how is that relevant to either the job that they need to do as prisons or the risk of abuse by privatized prisons.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:53 PM
no. but it doesn't confirm her biases.

It doesn't refute me either. Presenting sources without reading them is a rather common practice around here.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:55 PM
and how is that relevant to either the job that they need to do as prisons or the risk of abuse by privatized prisons.

The quote in context is about how private prisons are financed, not the job which is related of the prison or the abuse of prisoners.

Good to know that you can pay attention.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 12:58 PM
government prisons don't get money per head that is imprisoned.Yes, they do. The more prisoners which are incarcerated, the more funding is required for any prison. Private or Public. States are spending close to $40 Billion dollars on prisons alone. Private Prisons are currently operating at 1/5000th of what any state penitentiary system is running.

I'm beginning to think you don't seem to understand how the real world works.

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 01:13 PM
Nothing wrong with it. Just wanted to make sure you've read it. It's not uncommon for Private Prisons to invest in Muni-bonds. They're considered a financial asset. As of 2012, CXW has 251 in Receivables.But if we are discussing the overall cost of private prison the contractual arrangements alone don't reflect all of the public cost: "Private prison companies also received millions of dollars in government subsidies. These included various kinds of tax abatements and infrastructure assistance in addition to low-cost financing through several types of bonds". Furthermore:
Nearly three-quarters of the large prisons in the United States that were privately built and operated have received at least one form of economic development subsidy. Specifically, an analysis of all 60 private prisons with a capacity of 500 or more beds (comprising about 66,000 beds or half the U.S. private prison market) that were constructed by prison companies finds that:

·
At least 44, or 73%, of the 60 facilities received a development subsidy from local, state and/or federal government sources.

·
A total of $628 million in tax-free bonds and other government-issued securities were issued to finance the private prisons we studied.

·
37% of the facilities received low-cost construction financing through tax free bonds or other government-issued debt securities.

·
38% received property tax abatements or other tax reductions.

·
23% received infrastructure subsidies, such as water, sewer or utility hook-ups, access roads, and/or other publicly financed improvements.

·
Subsidies were found in 17 of the 19 states in which the 60 facilities are located.

·
Facilities operated by the two largest private prison companies, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and Wackenhut Corrections Corporation, are frequently subsidized. Among the facilities we studied, 78% of CCA’s and 69% of Wackenhut’s prisons were subsidized, suggesting that these companies have been aggressive in seeking development
subsidies. http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf

Thus the contractual arrangements do not reflect the true cost to the public.

jillian
09-22-2013, 01:14 PM
It doesn't refute me either. Presenting sources without reading them is a rather common practice around here.

the sources are read... just discounted.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 01:22 PM
But if we are discussing the overall cost of private prison the contractual arrangements alone don't reflect all of the public cost: "Private prison companies also received millions of dollars in government subsidies. These included various kinds of tax abatements and infrastructure assistance in addition to low-cost financing through several types of bonds". Furthermore:

Nearly three-quarters of the large prisons in the United States that were privately built and operated have received at least one form of economic development subsidy. Specifically, an analysis of all 60 private prisons with a capacity of 500 or more beds (comprising about 66,000 beds or half the U.S. private prison market) that were constructed by prison companies finds that:

·
At least 44, or 73%, of the 60 facilities received a development subsidy from local, state and/or federal government sources.

·
A total of $628 million in tax-free bonds and other government-issued securities were issued to finance the private prisons we studied.

·
37% of the facilities received low-cost construction financing through tax free bonds or other government-issued debt securities.

·
38% received property tax abatements or other tax reductions.

·
23% received infrastructure subsidies, such as water, sewer or utility hook-ups, access roads, and/or other publicly financed improvements.

·
Subsidies were found in 17 of the 19 states in which the 60 facilities are located.

·
Facilities operated by the two largest private prison companies, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) and Wackenhut Corrections Corporation, are frequently subsidized. Among the facilities we studied, 78% of CCA’s and 69% of Wackenhut’s prisons were subsidized, suggesting that these companies have been aggressive in seeking development
subsidies. http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/jailbreaks.pdf

Thus the contractual arrangements do not reflect the true cost to the public.

There is no 'true cost to the public.' These are the institutions who seek special privileges from Government regulation of the market. It's called 'rent seeking.' Everyone does it. These subsides are not for operational cost but for meeting requirements set but the Government.

A grant/loan subsidy and an expenditure/cost are not the same.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 01:26 PM
the sources are read... just discounted.

The sources are skimmed, not read. Reading would entail anyone comprehend what was read after finishing.

countryboy
09-22-2013, 01:27 PM
One, I've never been involved in a discussion of this topic on this forum so I don't know what you are on about.

Two, you've linked me to an article that shows the growth of the private prison industry. Funny.

Three, this article doesn't even count county jails.


To the point: prison is a money making opportunity. Privatizing prison is the wrong direction.

Better would be not incarcerating non-violent criminals, including illegal immigrants.
If you think government prisons aren't for-profit institutions, you are sadly mistaken. We need to stop writing laws making just about everything illegal. But alas, law enforcement is a for-profit institution as well. Not to mention the "justice system".

jillian
09-22-2013, 01:29 PM
If you think government prisons aren't for-profit institutions, you are sadly mistaken. We need to stop writing laws making just about everything illegal. But alas, law enforcement is a for-profit institution as well. Not to mention the "justice system".

interesting point. but there is nothing in sentencing someone to a government prison that would incentivize anyone to give kickbacks to a judge.

jillian
09-22-2013, 01:29 PM
The sources are skimmed, not read. Reading would entail anyone comprehend what was read after finishing.

if you say so.

countryboy
09-22-2013, 01:37 PM
interesting point. but there is nothing in sentencing someone to a government prison that would incentivize anyone to give kickbacks to a judge.
What about career advancement? Or, continuation of government funding? Think about it. :wink:

My older brother recently retired as a corrections officer in California. He got his twenty years in and got out. He is now living a life of leisure. And while I am happy for him, how can this sort of thing be sustainable? You cannot believe the kind of money he made as a prison guard.

jillian
09-22-2013, 01:39 PM
What about career advancement? Or, continuation of government funding? Think about it. :wink:

My older brother recently retired as a corrections officer in California. He got his twenty years in and got out. He is now living a life of leisure. And while I am happy for him, how can this sort of thing be sustainable? You cannot believe the kind of money he made as a prison guard.

whether over incarcerating people is a positive or a negative, i'd think depends on where you're from. here i'd think people who don't go too far in either direction do best.

well, i suspect whatever your brother was paid cost less than a privatized prison guard. and what you might think is a lot of money for the job, someone else might consider reasonable given the risks and unpleasantness of a lot of aspects of the job.

Alyosha
09-22-2013, 01:40 PM
There are no "private prisons". There are contractors running prisons. Contractors do not work like private companies.

http://www.thenation.com/article/162478/hidden-history-alec-and-prison-labor#

Great article on the ties between ALEC and the contractor prison system.

When I hear capitalism, I don't think "crony capitalism" or "corporatism". I believe we could have private run prisons, but they would have to be standalones so the prices would come down.

countryboy
09-22-2013, 01:44 PM
well, i suspect whatever your brother was paid cost less than a privatized prison guard. and what you might think is a lot of money for the job, someone else might consider reasonable given the risks and unpleasantness of a lot of aspects of the job.
I seriously doubt it, but it would be interesting to compare. And I agree, it is a thankless job which should be duly compensated. The thing is, my bro was a union drywall finisher for years. He loved being a corrections officer, at least he claimed to. One of the reasons he got out was because his back and knees were shot from years of hard labor as a taper.

countryboy
09-22-2013, 01:44 PM
There are no "private prisons". There are contractors running prisons. Contractors do not work like private companies.

http://www.thenation.com/article/162478/hidden-history-alec-and-prison-labor#

Great article on the ties between ALEC and the contractor prison system.

When I hear capitalism, I don't think "crony capitalism" or "corporatism". I believe we could have private run prisons, but they would have to be standalones so the prices would come down.
Excellent point.

Chris
09-22-2013, 02:10 PM
the sources are read... just discounted.


The sources are skimmed, not read. Reading would entail anyone comprehend what was read after finishing.



Comprehended enough that one wouldn't merely discount but present reasons for discounting.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 04:04 PM
Problem is you are just presenting your view of things, just like anyone else. Appealing to authority, especially one's own, just doesn't cut it. Either you have an argument to present or you don't.

If he is an expert on the subject he is not appealing to authority. You do know what it means, right?
Of course you do, you know everything...

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 04:07 PM
There is something called 'administrative cost' and there is also something called 'operation cost.' Operation cost are expenses to the business itself, such as rent, utilities, etc. Administration cost are the cost of general services, such as accounting and contracts. If the money is contractually given to house an inmate, it's for the purposes of that inmate. It's no different from running a school.



You're free to think whatever you like.

I don't care if the private prisons spend the govt money playing tiddly winks on a baseball diamond in the yard. The only point I was making is that whether a prison is run by the govt or a private company, the public purse is used to make ends meet. End of story.

Chris
09-22-2013, 04:29 PM
the sources are read... just discounted.


If he is an expert on the subject he is not appealing to authority. You do know what it means, right?
Of course you do, you know everything...



But that was my point, your hypothetical, "If he is an expert...." Thank you. And I went further, that expertise is not established by merely claiming it but by demonstrating it in argument. I think randy agrees with that and I think he rose to the challenge quite well.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 04:46 PM
But that was my point, your hypothetical, "If he is an expert...." Thank you. And I went further, that expertise is not established by merely claiming it but by demonstrating it in argument. I think randy agrees with that and I think he rose to the challenge quite well.

He is an expert.

jillian
09-22-2013, 04:49 PM
I seriously doubt it, but it would be interesting to compare. And I agree, it is a thankless job which should be duly compensated. The thing is, my bro was a union drywall finisher for years. He loved being a corrections officer, at least he claimed to. One of the reasons he got out was because his back and knees were shot from years of hard labor as a taper.

As a general rule, it costs more to pay for privatized services.

Good thing your brother had that union protection. It assure him benefits and , probably, a pension.

Codename Section
09-22-2013, 05:18 PM
As a general rule, it costs more to pay for privatized services.

Good thing your brother had that union protection. It assure him benefits and , probably, a pension.

In the military I had to write a chit for a piece of hardware I could have purchased at Home Depot for $12. Because of how contracting works it would cost our Platoon $64 and take 3 weeks to get there. I gave up and bought it myself for less.

Contracting is not the same as privatized services because of all the other costs thrown into the mix.

jillian
09-22-2013, 05:21 PM
In the military I had to write a chit for a piece of hardware I could have purchased at Home Depot for $12. Because of how contracting works it would cost our Platoon $64 and take 3 weeks to get there. I gave up and bought it myself for less.

Contracting is not the same as privatized services because of all the other costs thrown into the mix.

No doubt. I have heard stories of absurd military waste for years. But do you think the item would have cost less off haliburton were running things?

what I know is the mercenaries in Iraq got $1500 a day for doing work our military could have done.

countryboy
09-22-2013, 05:23 PM
No doubt. I have heard stories of absurd military waste for years. But do you think the item would have cost less off haliburton were running things?

what I know is the mercenaries in Iraq got $1500 a day for doing work our military could have done.

I believe the point was, governments always waste exorbitant amounts of money, and operate extremely inefficiently. Not just the military, and not just the Federal government.

Codename Section
09-22-2013, 05:24 PM
No doubt. I have heard stories of absurd military waste for years. But do you think the item would have cost less off haliburton were running things?

It would have cost less if we were able to shop around like you do when you want something. I don't like contractors and I don't like corporatism. I think what we've turned to is by design and we're merging corporations with government to our detriment.




what I know is the mercenaries in Iraq got $1500 a day for doing work our military could have done.

Yes but they had an entirely different mission and I would have loved to have been paid what they were paid, but I went the government route so I got more stupid rules, more work, and less money.

Chris
09-22-2013, 05:28 PM
In the military I had to write a chit for a piece of hardware I could have purchased at Home Depot for $12. Because of how contracting works it would cost our Platoon $64 and take 3 weeks to get there. I gave up and bought it myself for less.

Contracting is not the same as privatized services because of all the other costs thrown into the mix.



Good point, which applies to public anything, and why prison are being privatized.

Peter1469
09-22-2013, 05:33 PM
No doubt. I have heard stories of absurd military waste for years. But do you think the item would have cost less off haliburton were running things?

what I know is the mercenaries in Iraq got $1500 a day for doing work our military could have done.


Those salaries were during the really rough years- especially during the surge when I was there . As things quieted down, they dropped considerably. And our military couldn't have don't all the work - that is why we had to rely on contractors. You also have to consider that the Department of State wanted to use contractors for protection; had they used the DoD, that would have allowed DoD to direct when the State Department did anything which would require military protection.

Mainecoons
09-22-2013, 05:34 PM
I did some reading on this. It is a mixed bag. However, the real question is why we have to lock up so many people.

How many prisons and cops would we need if we got rid of the government's stupid war on drugs?

Many less, I'd be willing to wager.

BTW, I don't use drugs other than choice cigars and 18 year old single malt scotch.

:grin:

Ravi
09-22-2013, 07:03 PM
Wrong. Private Prisons make money through contracts and quotas. Some of those contracts may be entered with Governments as well, however, your tax dollars are not funded to run the prison, but to house inmate.

Show me where your tax revenue are allocated towards privately owned prisons. Preferable from a government outlays and receipt statement.

Jeesh. The taxpayer pays for the prison system no matter who runs it. What country do you live in, Somalia?

Ravi
09-22-2013, 07:05 PM
Are you saying that the money given to private prisons per diem by govts for the prisoners isn't used for running them? What is your definition of using the money to run the prison? So what do the use the money given to them for? Bingo?

BTW, you sound suspiciously like Chris. I think you might be his sock. Just putting it on record.
At the risk from being banned from my own thread, I thought the same. But I honestly don't think he is bright enough.

Ravi
09-22-2013, 07:08 PM
Problem is you are just presenting your view of things, just like anyone else. Appealing to authority, especially one's own, just doesn't cut it. Either you have an argument to present or you don't.


I would venture to say it stands to reason private prisons would have a better outcome simply because their is a measurable profit motive. In order to profit, you have to produce. The problem with public prisons is the lack of any motive to succeed.Sure, private prisons have a motive to profit. That is the problem.

Ravi
09-22-2013, 07:13 PM
To be sure, American prisons are awful. The folks at Gitmo don't know how good they have it. They really do need reform, IMO. That said, if we want to cut down on non-violent offenders lets reconsider our drug policy. Private prisons are not the problem.
They are a problem in as much as they lobby to get more people in them.

But since we all seem to agree that nob-violent offenders shouldn't be imprisoned, how do we fix that?

Mister D
09-22-2013, 07:23 PM
They are a problem in as much as they lobby to get more people in them.

But since we all seem to agree that nob-violent offenders shouldn't be imprisoned, how do we fix that?

You don't seriously believe it's because of some private prisons that we have so many inmates, right?

Reconsidering our drug policy is a good start.

jillian
09-22-2013, 07:25 PM
At the risk from being banned from my own thread, I thought the same. But I honestly don't think he is bright enough.

I asked on another thread if she were Chris' sock. But I think Chris"likes credit for his own words too much.

Ravi
09-22-2013, 07:25 PM
You don't seriously believe it's because of some private prisons that we have so many inmates, right?

Reconsidering our drug policy is a good start.I think it is a combination of the two. And yes, reconsidering our drug policy is a good start. How do we do it?

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 07:28 PM
You don't seriously believe it's because of some private prisons that we have so many inmates, right?

Reconsidering our drug policy is a good start.I agree reconsidering drug policy is a great place to start, but I can't help but thinking that crony capitalism might be maintaining the war on drugs and accelerating the growth of private prisons. Politicians are not to be trusted.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 07:34 PM
I don't care if the private prisons spend the govt money playing tiddly winks on a baseball diamond in the yard. The only point I was making is that whether a prison is run by the govt or a private company, the public purse is used to make ends meet. End of story.

No, no it's not.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Jeesh. The taxpayer pays for the prison system no matter who runs it. What country do you live in, Somalia?

Wouldn't surprise me if you received an education from Somalia. Operational expenses are not paid with tax payer money.

Basic finance will teach you how resources are allocated.

Chris
09-22-2013, 07:41 PM
Sure, private prisons have a motive to profit. That is the problem.

Why is that a problem?

Mister D
09-22-2013, 07:44 PM
I think it is a combination of the two. And yes, reconsidering our drug policy is a good start. How do we do it?

I think it's overwhelmingly because of the so called "war on drugs". I don't have the stats handy but I think around a quarter of US inmates have been convicted of a drug offense. That's crazy. As for "how do we do it", I think it will come inevitably with time. Younger people simply don't have the same mentality about drugs that previous generations have. A large percentage of the people I grew up with have tried pot and cocaine.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:44 PM
I asked on another thread if she were Chris' sock. But I think Chris"likes credit for his own words too much.

Bingo! I asked the very same question on this thread. Syntax and all...

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:45 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if you received an education from Somalia. Operational expenses are not paid with tax payer money.

Basic finance will teach you how resources are allocated.

Link...
That aside, answer me this: Is any tax money given to private prisons?

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 07:46 PM
I don't care if the private prisons spend the govt money playing tiddly winks on a baseball diamond in the yard. The only point I was making is that whether a prison is run by the govt or a private company, the public purse is used to make ends meet. End of story.

You are correct, it sjut takes less of it if you use private prisons :)

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:47 PM
Why is that a problem?

Because the only reason prisons should exist is to punish and/or rehabilitate offenders. Not make money. As soon as you bring money making into it, the game changes....and not for the better IMO.

Despite people 'hating' government, it does have its uses. The problem with people who don't like govt is that they think they could do a better job, when it is highly likely they couldn't...

Mister D
09-22-2013, 07:49 PM
I agree reconsidering drug policy is a great place to start, but I can't help but thinking that crony capitalism might be maintaining the war on drugs and accelerating the growth of private prisons. Politicians are not to be trusted.

I don't doubt that there are vested interests on several levels. There are also the very real problems that substance abuse causes. The latter is often forgotten because as a people we have become far too cynical, IMO, and assume the worst possible motives . That said, our drug policy is a manifest failure.

Mr Happy
09-22-2013, 07:51 PM
You are correct, it sjut takes less of it if you use private prisons :)

It's interesting you say this. Up until the 1980s in New Zealand, the government owned everything - railways, telecoms, power plants etc, but our Labour (ie Dem) government (that's right our LIBERAL govt) sold most of the state-owned assets to private companies. In most cases the costs to the consumers went up. Most were inefficient to be sure, and they all became a lot more efficient, but the costs to us didn't become any cheaper..

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 07:52 PM
As a general rule, it costs more to pay for privatized services.

Good thing your brother had that union protection. It assure him benefits and , probably, a pension.

Absolutely NOT! First it is less expensive up front, because the private workers pay for a higher percentage of their healthcare and they are responsible for their retirement through 401K programs and not UNION bought pension plans. Next usually you do not have union due that they funny to the DNC,

So while the cost per Prisoner might be similar, may be similar, there is not the huge back end that needs to be taken care of.

Why do you think that School systems are starting to use private firms for janitorial, food services and transportation? because it is cheaper!!!!1

If you want to pay the very most for a service then you would have the government do it, they are not efficient at anything, you get about 18 to 30 % production for your money? the rest is government waste

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 07:55 PM
No doubt. I have heard stories of absurd military waste for years. But do you think the item would have cost less off haliburton were running things?

what I know is the mercenaries in Iraq got $1500 a day for doing work our military could have done.

:) And if they had crappy work to do, they got more!!!!

But the military can't do the work that they people that got this change received? because the USA did not want their name tied to it. should our military have been able to do it? YES! but the are handcuffed with political correctness, so they can't and we are forced to pay the high dollar fot people willing to do the dirty deeds

Chris
09-22-2013, 07:56 PM
I think it's overwhelmingly because of the so called "war on drugs". I don't have the stats handy but I think around a quarter of US inmates have been convicted of a drug offense. That's crazy. As for "how do we do it", I think it will come inevitably with time. Younger people simply don't have the same mentality about drugs that previous generations have. A large percentage of the people I grew up with have tried pot and cocaine.



Closer to 50%, @ http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp



Types of Offenses
back to top (http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp#)
http://www.bop.gov/webimages/cell_rounder_R.gif







Drug Offenses:
89,506
(46.8 %)


Weapons, Explosives, Arson:
31,380
(16.4 %)


Immigration:
22,402
(11.7 %)


Robbery:
7,892
(4.1 %)


Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses:
7,844
(4.1 %)


Extortion, Fraud, Bribery:
11,116
(5.8 %)


Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses:
5,733
(3.0 %)


Miscellaneous:
1,612
(0.8 %)


Sex Offenses:
11,800
(6.2 %)


Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement:
822
(0.4 %)


Courts or Corrections:
654
(0.3 %)


Continuing Criminal Enterprise:
485
(0.3 %)


National Security:
83
(0.0 %)

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 07:57 PM
It would have cost less if we were able to shop around like you do when you want something. I don't like contractors and I don't like corporatism. I think what we've turned to is by design and we're merging corporations with government to our detriment.



Yes but they had an entirely different mission and I would have loved to have been paid what they were paid, but I went the government route so I got more stupid rules, more work, and less money.

Thank You for your service. And look on the bright side? As a former Contractor! At least you got to keep your soul!

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 07:58 PM
Link...

Take Accounting 101. Revenue flows are delegated for a specific purpose for any institution, even the Government. It's like assuming the revenue for your income taxes pays to maintain roads and bridges. Operational Cash Flows don't work that way.


That aside, answer me this: Is any tax money given to private prisons?

Yes, but not for the purposes of running a prison.

Chris
09-22-2013, 07:59 PM
Because the only reason prisons should exist is to punish and/or rehabilitate offenders. Not make money. As soon as you bring money making into it, the game changes....and not for the better IMO.

Despite people 'hating' government, it does have its uses. The problem with people who don't like govt is that they think they could do a better job, when it is highly likely they couldn't...



Why is that, happy? Who decided your reason is the only reason? What do you mean the game changes, and how do you know?

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 08:01 PM
Why is that a problem?

Because she thinks like a communist? :)

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 08:04 PM
Link...
That aside, answer me this: Is any tax money given to private prisons?

YES! they just give them less per Prisoner than if they decided to run the system themselves, Then if the Prison decides to provide work or products they may turn a buck off that too?

So they save the people money! because government can waste more money if they try to run things themselves

jillian
09-22-2013, 08:05 PM
Why is that a problem?

because no one should be sent to prison because the judge gets kick backs for every person he incarcerates.

not really complicated.

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 08:07 PM
Because the only reason prisons should exist is to punish and/or rehabilitate offenders. Not make money. As soon as you bring money making into it, the game changes....and not for the better IMO.

Despite people 'hating' government, it does have its uses. The problem with people who don't like govt is that they think they could do a better job, when it is highly likely they couldn't...

Do you have any proof that private prisons are doing less of a job than the public institutions?

And I think that the government should do things, Deliver the mail, the military, and foreign policy, then if they could get out of everything else, it would be great

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 08:07 PM
:) And if they had crappy work to do, they got more!!!!

But the military can't do the work that they people that got this change received? because the USA did not want their name tied to it. should our military have been able to do it? YES! but the are handcuffed with political correctness, so they can't and we are forced to pay the high dollar fot people willing to do the dirty deeds

Isn't that by any definition, hypocrisy?

Chris
09-22-2013, 08:09 PM
because no one should be sent to prison because the judge gets kick backs for every person he incarcerates.

not really complicated.



What has that got to do with what marie opined and I asked about? Her claim was "Sure, private prisons have a motive to profit. That is the problem." Why is that a problem?

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 08:09 PM
because no one should be sent to prison because the judge gets kick backs for every person he incarcerates.

not really complicated.

Do you have proof of that? because if you do, the judge will go to prison? But you don't have any proof do you, lets call this what it is, the liberals want public prisions and the Union dues that are funneled to the DNC from them

zelmo1234
09-22-2013, 08:13 PM
Isn't that by any definition, hypocrisy?

Lets say that there are a bunch of bad guys hiding in a mosque and they are attacking your troops, but your troops can't shoot back because they are in a mosque. Political correctness?

It is not the safest job in the world to go in and ferret out the trash! And if you were in the military and they were captured, then their are issue there as well? So you hire a contractor and they do the work that you don't want your military to be involved with.

And Peter is correct they provided security for the state dept, and vip visitors, and the military is not a real good security force, they are trained for other things.

AmazonTania
09-22-2013, 08:14 PM
because no one should be sent to prison because the judge gets kick backs for every person he incarcerates.

not really complicated.

Yeah, because only judges benefit from making sure people are sent to jail.

Not District Attorneys, Sherifs, Police Captains, Detectives and the lot. And let's not forget the contractors who have to build these new prisons all across the country, because they don't make money either.

Dr. Who
09-22-2013, 08:15 PM
At the risk from being banned from my own thread, I thought the same. But I honestly don't think he is bright enough.

Marie_Archer has been banned from this thread for making a personal attack on another member

bladimz
09-23-2013, 08:41 AM
because no one should be sent to prison because the judge gets kick backs for every person he incarcerates.

not really complicated.I tried, or at least wanted to make that point earlier in this thread. Kick-backs would be a realistic expectation. And if not, why not?

bladimz
09-23-2013, 08:52 AM
I think it's overwhelmingly because of the so called "war on drugs". I don't have the stats handy but I think around a quarter of US inmates have been convicted of a drug offense. That's crazy. As for "how do we do it", I think it will come inevitably with time. Younger people simply don't have the same mentality about drugs that previous generations have. A large percentage of the people I grew up with have tried pot and cocaine.There is more of an impetus for some kids to move away from the illegal stuff because of the fun stuff that is more available to them by virtue of mom and dad, like psychotropic drugs, (which have become so much more popular now), erection dysfuntional drugs (kids like to use them for all-night parties...).

At the same time, pot and other users who's use is strictly recreational, have no business being thrown in a prison that houses true convicts. Private prisons would hate to see their population drop by nearly 50%, and lobby against any changes in the war in drugs.

Chris
09-23-2013, 08:56 AM
I tried, or at least wanted to make that point earlier in this thread. Kick-backs would be a realistic expectation. And if not, why not?



Of public prison systems, yes, less likely private.

bladimz
09-23-2013, 09:48 AM
Why?

Chris
09-23-2013, 10:18 AM
Rather simple, and obvious, I'd think. As I already pointed out earlier, a private business will only profit if it provides goods and services consumers want, and only as well if it does so more effectively and efficiently than its competitors. These economics means preclude fraud or force because it would harm their reputation as a business, you would not hire a business known to cheat its customers, would you? This incentive, this motive, does not exist in public provision of goods and services, profit is replaced by the desire for power, which is achieved not by economic but by political means, the exchange of wealth in the form of political favors for power. Power corrupts, Lord Acton pointed out, absolute power corrupts absolutely.


See Oppenheimer on the distinction between economic and political means: http://files.libertyfund.org/pll/quotes/150.html

Dr. Who
09-23-2013, 05:47 PM
Rather simple, and obvious, I'd think. As I already pointed out earlier, a private business will only profit if it provides goods and services consumers want, and only as well if it does so more effectively and efficiently than its competitors. These economics means preclude fraud or force because it would harm their reputation as a business, you would not hire a business known to cheat its customers, would you? This incentive, this motive, does not exist in public provision of goods and services, profit is replaced by the desire for power, which is achieved not by economic but by political means, the exchange of wealth in the form of political favors for power. Power corrupts, Lord Acton pointed out, absolute power corrupts absolutely.


See Oppenheimer on the distinction between economic and political means: http://files.libertyfund.org/pll/quotes/150.html

Sorry Chris, but getting more inmates just makes a private prison show better profits. The fraudulent aspect is divorced from them, because it becomes the public officials who undertake to use existing laws and sentencing guidelines in an abusive fashion to pack those prisons. Private prisons are not like a retail store - they only have one customer and if that customer is being represented by a corrupt judge and/or a corrupt town or towns that make money off the prison, and stays within the letter of the law, it is rather difficult to support an allegation of fraud. However first time offenders end up in jail, where in any other jurisdiction they might be fined. Certainly it has happened in the past with public prisons operating within certain towns or districts and corrupt people found a way to make a profit off of the prison. However private prisons are not immune:
.
The Kids for Cash scandal is just one example: "The "kids for cash" scandal unfolded in 2008 over judicial kickbacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickbacks) at the Luzerne County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzerne_County) Court of Common Pleas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Courts_of_Common_Pleas) in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkes-Barre,_Pennsylvania). Two judges, President Judge Mark Ciavarella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Ciavarella) and Senior Judge Michael Conahan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Conahan), were accused of accepting money from Robert Mericle, builder of two private, for-profit juvenile facilities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_detention_center), in return for contracting with the facilities and imposing harsh sentences on juveniles brought before their courts to increase the number of inmates in the detention centers"

"A federal grand jury in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania) returned a 48 count indictment[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-indictment-7) against Ciavarella and Conahan including racketeering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering), fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud), money laundering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), extortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), bribery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery) and federal tax violations on September 9, 2009.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-grand_jury-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-new_release-9) Conahan entered a revised guilty plea to one count of racketeering conspiracy in July 2010.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-morgan-besecker20110425-10) In a verdict reached at the conclusion of a jury trial, Ciavarella was convicted February 18, 2011 on 12 of the 39 counts he faced." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

So you really cannot say that a private prison is less likely to engage in fraudulent behavior, if anything they have more reason, because they have a profit motive.

Chris
09-23-2013, 07:23 PM
Sorry Chris, but getting more inmates just makes a private prison show better profits. The fraudulent aspect is divorced from them, because it becomes the public officials who undertake to use existing laws and sentencing guidelines in an abusive fashion to pack those prisons. Private prisons are not like a retail store - they only have one customer and if that customer is being represented by a corrupt judge and/or a corrupt town or towns that make money off the prison, and stays within the letter of the law, it is rather difficult to support an allegation of fraud. However first time offenders end up in jail, where in any other jurisdiction they might be fined. Certainly it has happened in the past with public prisons operating within certain towns or districts and corrupt people found a way to make a profit off of the prison. However private prisons are not immune:
.
The Kids for Cash scandal is just one example: "The "kids for cash" scandal unfolded in 2008 over judicial kickbacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickbacks) at the Luzerne County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzerne_County) Court of Common Pleas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Courts_of_Common_Pleas) in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkes-Barre,_Pennsylvania). Two judges, President Judge Mark Ciavarella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Ciavarella) and Senior Judge Michael Conahan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Conahan), were accused of accepting money from Robert Mericle, builder of two private, for-profit juvenile facilities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_detention_center), in return for contracting with the facilities and imposing harsh sentences on juveniles brought before their courts to increase the number of inmates in the detention centers"

"A federal grand jury in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrisburg,_Pennsylvania) returned a 48 count indictment[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-indictment-7) against Ciavarella and Conahan including racketeering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeering), fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud), money laundering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), extortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), bribery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery) and federal tax violations on September 9, 2009.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-grand_jury-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-new_release-9) Conahan entered a revised guilty plea to one count of racketeering conspiracy in July 2010.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal#cite_note-morgan-besecker20110425-10) In a verdict reached at the conclusion of a jury trial, Ciavarella was convicted February 18, 2011 on 12 of the 39 counts he faced." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

So you really cannot say that a private prison is less likely to engage in fraudulent behavior, if anything they have more reason, because they have a profit motive.



A private prison would not be in any way responsible for getting more prisoners, that would be left to legislators and justice departments.

A profitable prison would be measured by how well it did its job in containing and rehabilitating criminals at a reasonable cost savings to the taxpayer. The reward for that and avoiding fraudulent behavior would not be packing existing prison with more prisoners but being awarded contracts to replace public management at other prisons.

Dr. Who
09-23-2013, 07:49 PM
A private prison would not be in any way responsible for getting more prisoners, that would be left to legislators and justice departments.

A profitable prison would be measured by how well it did its job in containing and rehabilitating criminals at a reasonable cost savings to the taxpayer. The reward for that and avoiding fraudulent behavior would not be packing existing prison with more prisoners but being awarded contracts to replace public management at other prisons.The inherent thing in contracts is making a profit. So either you conspire with law enforcement and the justice system to incarcerate without reason, or you do the other thing which is popular now and turn private prisons into essentially slave labor camps. While few people have much sympathy for the incarcerated, they brought it on themselves, in principal it is another form of slavery. Furthermore it competes with businesses who don't have a captive and practically free labor population and potentially drives them out of business. So how is the competition supposed to compete without legalizing slavery? One side has a serious advantage which as an added complication is endorsed by government.

Chris
09-23-2013, 08:08 PM
The inherent thing in contracts is making a profit. So either you conspire with law enforcement and the justice system to incarcerate without reason, or you do the other thing which is popular now and turn private prisons into essentially slave labor camps. While few people have much sympathy for the incarcerated, they brought it on themselves, in principal it is another form of slavery. Furthermore it competes with businesses who don't have a captive and practically free labor population and potentially drives them out of business. So how is the competition supposed to compete without legalizing slavery? One side has a serious advantage which as an added complication is endorsed by government.



Or you provide the goods and services people want, here, the justice system, the legislature, and ultimately the people. That's the economic means. What you're addressing is the political means provided by government, and I agree, it is horribly corrupt.

Dr. Who
09-23-2013, 08:50 PM
Or you provide the goods and services people want, here, the justice system, the legislature, and ultimately the people. That's the economic means. What you're addressing is the political means provided by government, and I agree, it is horribly corrupt.

Perhaps the suspicion of these enterprises is that most of them have their beginnings in government hand outs, tax breaks and low interest loans and their income comes from government contracts, and furthermore they enjoy legislation provided by government. The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is.

jillian
09-23-2013, 08:52 PM
Perhaps the suspicion of these enterprises is that most of them have their beginnings in government hand outs, tax breaks and low interest loans and their income comes from government contracts, and furthermore they enjoy legislation provided by government. The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is.

there is all that.

but i think at least part of the basis (and maybe the largest part of the basis) for distrust of privatization, particularly of businesses that are supposed to act in the public interest, is the incredible potential for corruption and self-interest. that is certainly included in what you said, but is not all of it, imo.

Dr. Who
09-23-2013, 09:00 PM
there is all that.

but i think at least part of the basis (and maybe the largest part of the basis) for distrust of privatization, particularly of businesses that are supposed to act in the public interest, is the incredible potential for corruption and self-interest. that is certainly included in what you said, but is not all of it, imo.It is just the beginning, but sets the stage for anything thing that comes later. Later is dependent on the number of officials whose integrity is tied to their bank balance.

jillian
09-23-2013, 09:03 PM
It is just the beginning, but sets the stage for anything thing that comes later. Later is dependent on the number of officials whose integrity is tied to their bank balance.

which is all of them so long as money and politics are inextricably bound

roadmaster
09-23-2013, 09:10 PM
I think we should fund more rehabilitation centers. Too many people in prison that need help instead of being locked up.

Chris
09-23-2013, 09:14 PM
Perhaps the suspicion of these enterprises is that most of them have their beginnings in government hand outs, tax breaks and low interest loans and their income comes from government contracts, and furthermore they enjoy legislation provided by government. The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is.



But shouldn't it be a suspicion of the enterprises working in collusion with government? That's where, as you pointed out in great deal, the corruption comes in. Oh, OK, that's what you end up saying: "The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is." Indeed. The more government the worse it is. Would seem to me to led logically to the conclusion the converse might be true as well, the less government the better it would be. We should try that, don't you think?

Chris
09-23-2013, 09:16 PM
there is all that.

but i think at least part of the basis (and maybe the largest part of the basis) for distrust of privatization, particularly of businesses that are supposed to act in the public interest, is the incredible potential for corruption and self-interest. that is certainly included in what you said, but is not all of it, imo.

"The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is." seems to me to condemn government collusion with business, not privatization.

Chris
09-23-2013, 09:17 PM
which is all of them so long as money and politics are inextricably bound



There, now we're on the same page.


What we need is separation of money and state.

Chris
09-23-2013, 09:19 PM
I think we should fund more rehabilitation centers. Too many people in prison that need help instead of being locked up.

Prevention would be better, and cheaper.

If part of rehab is working, some of that income could be used to fund rehabs.

Dr. Who
09-23-2013, 09:34 PM
But shouldn't it be a suspicion of the enterprises working in collusion with government? That's where, as you pointed out in great deal, the corruption comes in. Oh, OK, that's what you end up saying: "The more that government is involved in the enhancement of the profit structure of an ostensibly independent private enterprise, the more suspect it is." Indeed. The more government the worse it is. Would seem to me to led logically to the conclusion the converse might be true as well, the less government the better it would be. We should try that, don't you think?

Sure, but you have human nature to overcome. And if the government was not inextricably bound to the equation, how many would want to run a private prison? To make a profit ( or at least one that would attract investors) they would ultimately have to do things that would violate public policy.

Chris
09-24-2013, 07:04 AM
Sure, but you have human nature to overcome. And if the government was not inextricably bound to the equation, how many would want to run a private prison? To make a profit ( or at least one that would attract investors) they would ultimately have to do things that would violate public policy.



Right, human nature is to take the path of least resistance, of least effort to get what you want. The political means is simply easier than the economic means. As long as government provides the political means, there will be corruption.

Governments role should be to define the laws and prosecute violators.



To make a profit ( or at least one that would attract investors) they would ultimately have to do things that would violate public policy.

Why?

To make a profit all a private prison need do is the job they're contracted to do better than any competitor can. It would make no sense to violate the law and be imprisoned themselves--much as the experience might teach them something. ;-)

Dr. Who
09-24-2013, 05:57 PM
Right, human nature is to take the path of least resistance, of least effort to get what you want. The political means is simply easier than the economic means. As long as government provides the political means, there will be corruption.

Governments role should be to define the laws and prosecute violators.




Why?

To make a profit all a private prison need do is the job they're contracted to do better than any competitor can. It would make no sense to violate the law and be imprisoned themselves--much as the experience might teach them something. ;-)

I don't know - depends on the per prisoner cost in the contract. If that is too close to the margin, the only way to pay off investors for the cost of construction and any other capitalization and still make a profit is to turn the prison into a slave labor camp or essentially feed the prisoners so poorly that you would probably be violating the law. You can only get guards so cheap. They are unlikely to work that kind of job for minimum wage, and if they would they would likely be a liability. Then depending on the location of the prison you might have higher energy costs summer or winter.

Chris
09-24-2013, 06:16 PM
I don't know - depends on the per prisoner cost in the contract. If that is too close to the margin, the only way to pay off investors for the cost of construction and any other capitalization and still make a profit is to turn the prison into a slave labor camp or essentially feed the prisoners so poorly that you would probably be violating the law. You can only get guards so cheap. They are unlikely to work that kind of job for minimum wage, and if they would they would likely be a liability. Then depending on the location of the prison you might have higher energy costs summer or winter.

I think that happened in public prisons, chain gangs and the like.

Dr. Who
09-24-2013, 06:22 PM
I think that happened in public prisons, chain gangs and the like.Yeah. They made many regulations about what you can and can't do in prisons. There were some really nasty institutions in the south at one time that had chain gangs that were poorly fed and beaten. Some inmates were worked to death. Prison reform changed things.

Chris
09-24-2013, 06:42 PM
Yeah. They made many regulations about what you can and can't do in prisons. There were some really nasty institutions in the south at one time that had chain gangs that were poorly fed and beaten. Some inmates were worked to death. Prison reform changed things.


So what we have here is government solutions creating problems requiring more government solutions that create more problems. One such instance was the war on drugs that increased prison population to the point we cannot afford it. And one solution is to privatize. At least that gets part of the solution out of problem-creating government.

Dr. Who
09-24-2013, 06:53 PM
So what we have here is government solutions creating problems requiring more government solutions that create more problems. One such instance was the war on drugs that increased prison population to the point we cannot afford it. And one solution is to privatize. At least that gets part of the solution out of problem-creating government.

If we reduced the prison population by the number who are really just drug users, we probably wouldn't need the private prisons at all. Furthermore if we decriminalized drugs and actually sold safe non addicting euphorics plus tax for recreational use, we would put the criminals out of business.

Chris
09-24-2013, 07:09 PM
If we reduced the prison population by the number who are really just drug users, we probably wouldn't need the private prisons at all. Furthermore if we decriminalized drugs and actually sold safe non addicting euphorics plus tax for recreational use, we would put the criminals out of business.



That may be true. But doesn't it make sense to privatize to save expenditures and either spend the money elsewhere or give it back to the people who know better how to spend it in the first place.

I doubt we can eliminate crime, just as unless we eliminate government we can never eliminate corrupt crony capitalism.

roadmaster
09-24-2013, 07:12 PM
Yeah. They made many regulations about what you can and can't do in prisons. There were some really nasty institutions in the south at one time that had chain gangs that were poorly fed and beaten. Some inmates were worked to death. Prison reform changed things. Actually I knew a few on the chain gangs when I was young. They preferred to be able to get out and work and were not poorly fed or beaten. Wasn't like in the movies, they took breaks and I watched them clean off brush from railroad tracks. Now this was in the 60's and when they got out they talked fine of the chain gang. They also got to work with horses and cattle. So to them it was a break. Now I don't know about other chain gangs but most of these were only serving around two to five years.

Dr. Who
09-24-2013, 07:29 PM
Actually I knew a few on the chain gangs when I was young. They preferred to be able to get out and work and were not poorly fed or beaten. Wasn't like in the movies, they took breaks and I watched them clean off brush from railroad tracks. Now this was in the 60's and when they got out they talked fine of the chain gang. They also got to work with horses and cattle. So to them it was a break. Now I don't know about other chain gangs but most of these were only serving around two to five years.

I believe the major reforms came around 1955.

Ransom
09-25-2013, 09:01 AM
I wonder if Louis Lerner would prefer a private or fed run prison....

Mainecoons
09-25-2013, 09:03 AM
She's negotiating with Issa for immunity right now. They should give it to her, she might 'fess up as to the involvements of the higher ups here.

bladimz
09-25-2013, 10:02 AM
I believe the major reforms came around 1955.Those reforms were directed toward public-run, publicly-funded institutions and were successful. What reforms or controls would be placed on private institutions, and by who? Once they've won a contract, the ways and means by which they run their business is totally in their hands. Their interest is their bottom line. The cheaper they run their business, the better their bottom line. Cheap means crappy operations and crappy product (if you want to refer to a released convict as a "product").

nic34
09-25-2013, 10:12 AM
Those reforms were directed toward public-run, publicly-funded institutions and were successful. What reforms or controls would be placed on private institutions, and by who? Once they've won a contract, the ways and means by which they run their business is totally in their hands. Their interest is their bottom line. The cheaper they run their business, the better their bottom line. Cheap means crappy operations and crappy product (if you want to refer to a released convict as a "product").

And remember, private doesn't mean the public doesn't still pay.... sometimes more.

Chris
09-25-2013, 10:18 AM
Those reforms were directed toward public-run, publicly-funded institutions and were successful. What reforms or controls would be placed on private institutions, and by who? Once they've won a contract, the ways and means by which they run their business is totally in their hands. Their interest is their bottom line. The cheaper they run their business, the better their bottom line. Cheap means crappy operations and crappy product (if you want to refer to a released convict as a "product").

Successful? By what standard? How measured?


What reforms or controls would be placed on private institutions, and by who?

Up to the government to set that and then impose it in contracts with private companies.


Once they've won a contract, the ways and means by which they run their business is totally in their hands.

Reporting by the private company and monitoring by government would also be part of any contract.


Why are these so difficult for you?



Their interest is their bottom line. The cheaper they run their business, the better their bottom line. Cheap means crappy operations and crappy product (if you want to refer to a released convict as a "product").

If that were the case they would not be awarded further contracts. Their interest is profits and profits can be had only by renewed long term contracts because they provide the goods and services consumers, the government, if not the people, want.


Is that the way you run/ran your business? Did you exploit your customers? I doubt it. Apply the same principles you operated by. Why assume anything different?

Chris
09-25-2013, 10:21 AM
And remember, private doesn't mean the public doesn't still pay.... sometimes more.



Who exactly is forgetting that?

If it cost more then it's because government, not in the interests of the people, awarded contract to such a bid. Seems to me government should know what it costs run publicly, start bidding below that.

nic34
09-25-2013, 12:25 PM
Who exactly is forgetting that?

If it cost more then it's because government, not in the interests of the people, awarded contract to such a bid. Seems to me government should know what it costs run publicly, start bidding below that.

Might want to catch up:

Private Prison Companies Behind the Scenes of Arizona’s Immigration Law

all rhetoric and election year posturing aside, the fact is that some backers of the Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act (dubbed the “Breathing While Brown” law by critics) are wrapping themselves in the flag all the way to the bank.

Some of these proponents are seemingly as dedicated to grandstanding on border politics as they are to promoting the fortunes of private prison corporations, members of the multi-billion dollar immigrant detention industry which stand to reap substantial profits as more undocumented aliens are run through the nation’s immigration, detention and deportation mill.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=22734&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

and...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/cell-out-arizona/2011/07/20/arizona%E2%80%99s-private-prison-pay-to-play-scandal-widens-chair-of-house-appropriations-committee-appropriated-by-geo-group/

Chris
09-25-2013, 12:39 PM
Might want to catch up:

Private Prison Companies Behind the Scenes of Arizona’s Immigration Law

all rhetoric and election year posturing aside, the fact is that some backers of the Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act (dubbed the “Breathing While Brown” law by critics) are wrapping themselves in the flag all the way to the bank.

Some of these proponents are seemingly as dedicated to grandstanding on border politics as they are to promoting the fortunes of private prison corporations, members of the multi-billion dollar immigrant detention industry which stand to reap substantial profits as more undocumented aliens are run through the nation’s immigration, detention and deportation mill.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=22734&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

and...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/cell-out-arizona/2011/07/20/arizona%E2%80%99s-private-prison-pay-to-play-scandal-widens-chair-of-house-appropriations-committee-appropriated-by-geo-group/



What'd that have to do with what I'd said?

Mainecoons
09-25-2013, 12:42 PM
Isn't Arizona's immigration law designed to have fewer illegals?

I seem to recall when it was enacted there were all these stories about illegals packing up and leaving AZ.

Since they can only hold them a short time under the AZ law, I fail to see the benefit here. Your article seems to be about guilt by association and little more.

As per usual with you, your first citation is an anti-prison advocacy group and reads like a rant.

Your second citation is about influence peddling and has nothing to do with immigration. It is about lobbyists funneling money to politicians as if this was something unique. Maybe you should spend a little time looking at where your boy Obama got and gets all his money.

As usual with you, Nic, you demonstrate a complete inability to separate advocacy from dispassionate and factual reporting and you mix up your issues.

BTW, the Tucson Daily Citizen is a very leftist, Democrat paper.

Your inability to research and think critically and skeptically continues to amaze me, Nic.

bladimz
09-25-2013, 02:34 PM
Your second citation is about influence peddling and has nothing to do with immigration. It is about lobbyists funneling money to politicians as if this was something unique. Maybe you should spend a little time looking at where your boy Obama got and gets all his money.You're absolutely right. This has little to do with immigration, and a lot to do with private prison issues...which is what the thread is about, by the way:

(from his link: http://goo.gl/qH1Qwc)

Much has been made of Governor Brewer’s intimate ties to Corrections Corporation of America. Her Chief of Staff, Paul Senseman, is a former CCA lobbyist, and his wife is currently a lobbyist for the company. Brewer’s campaign manager and senior policy advisor, Chuck Coughlin, runs a consulting firm that also lobbies for CCA in Arizona. Brewer accepted a total of $60,000 in contributions from people associated with CCA for her campaign and the tax increase initiative that she was pushing last year. The scandal made waves after the passage of SB1070, raising questions about CCA’s role in drafting legislation that would potentially provide the company with millions more in contracts for immigrant detention facilities in Arizona.

But Brewer is hardly the only powerful politician in Arizona with ties to this influential industry. A Cell-Out Arizona investigation has revealed that John Kavanagh (R-8), Chair of the House Appropriations Committee, has accepted numerous campaign contributions from lobbyists and others associated with Geo Group, the nation’s second largest private prison company and one of the bidders for a contract to build and manage 5,000 new prison beds in Arizona.

Now we know why Kavanagh is such a staunch supporter of private prisons. He appeared last week on Phoenix Channel 8’s public affairs program, Horizon, debating the issue with Rep. Cecil Ash.

In the 2010 election cycle, Kavanagh accepted at least 6 donations from lobbyists associated with Geo Group.I think he's got it right.

nic34
09-25-2013, 02:38 PM
the Tucson Daily Citizen is a very leftist, Democrat paper.



As usual attacking sources....

.....but is there anything in those pieces unfactual that you want to dispute?

Thought not.

Chris
09-25-2013, 03:44 PM
As usual attacking sources....

.....but is there anything in those pieces unfactual that you want to dispute?

Thought not.


And you posting in another thread:


I couldn't get past the serial ACA liar that posted this nonsense on ..... you got it, the american spectator. The paragon of (Koch, Koch) media integrity.....

McCaughey has a long history of fearmongering about the ACA. Not only was she responsible (http://thepoliticalforums.com/research/2011/03/22/a-history-of-death-panels-a-timeline/177776) for launching the "death panel" lie, she has consistently (http://thepoliticalforums.com/research/2009/11/24/mccaughey-advances-falsehood-that-task-force-wo/157448) been proven (http://thepoliticalforums.com/research/2012/11/20/betsy-mccaughey-returns-to-fox-to-misinform-abo/191468) wrong (http://thepoliticalforums.com/research/2009/07/31/media-echo-serial-misinformer-mccaugheys-false/152759) in her inflammatory attacks on Obamacare.

http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/11/20/betsy-mccaughey-returns-to-fox-to-misinform-abo/191468


Are you the pot or the kettle?

Ethereal
09-26-2013, 05:27 PM
It's not "privatization" if the state is the one sending people to prison. It's corporate welfare.

Alyosha
09-26-2013, 05:32 PM
It's not "privatization" if the state is the one sending people to prison. It's corporate welfare.

That's what I said. Did anyone listen? ((shakes head))

Chris
09-26-2013, 06:02 PM
It's not "privatization" if the state is the one sending people to prison. It's corporate welfare.



If the private prison rent seeks, then yes it is.

Mainecoons
09-26-2013, 06:03 PM
And remember, private doesn't mean the public doesn't still pay.... sometimes more.

When more? Cite references. Make sure they include all of the costs of public employees including higher pay, more time off, fatter pensions and healthcare.

Good luck.

Ethereal
09-26-2013, 06:25 PM
If the private prison rent seeks, then yes it is.

Prisons are just a node within the state's justice system. They are not "private" in any sense of the word. A real "private prison" is what the authorities call "abduction" or "kidnapping".