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View Full Version : Question for supporters of Obamacare: What do you SPECIFICALLY like about it?



Codename Section
09-23-2013, 09:40 PM
I'm going to assume the supporters read it and can answer what they think it will do for middle class Americans.

roadmaster
09-23-2013, 09:43 PM
I don't know what's in it. How can I be for or against something if I don't know?

Green Arrow
09-23-2013, 10:34 PM
This should be interesting.

Singularity
09-23-2013, 10:56 PM
The ban on screwing people with pre-existing conditions and the provision for parental insurance to age 26 were two critical reforms.

The rest of the law is for the most part an unknown to me. Opponents are almost universally Republicans and proponents are almost universally Democrats. That's a recipe for broad distortion all around. My quibble with the GOP's position on the law is not their base opposition to it. It is their stubborn determination to simply junk or sabotage the law by any means necessary without offering some kind of productive, good-faith alternative.

While the Democrats have engaged in their own shenanigans, as I said, the bulk of the bold-faced lies, disingenuous behavior and categorical abandonment of the Congressional GOP's responsibilities as legislators is unacceptable. The point's been made, more than once, that the GOP simultaneously compromised themselves beyond all recognition and put the screws to the Democrats with Medicare Part D in the early Naughts.

Yet did the Democrats actively lie about what Part D aimed to do, refuse to help constituents understand the law, vote to repeal it to no end more than 40 times at the cost of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars, pass state laws rendering application of the law illegal, and so on and so forth? Obviously, no.

I'll keep an open mind in respect to the law, and hope for the best for the country regardless of what ends up happening with it, but the political climate that lives in Congress right now is producing this sort of truly toxic travesty every day of the week, and it's gotta stop.

AmazonTania
09-23-2013, 11:20 PM
Pretty sure the only thing Obamacare supports like about Obamacare is the fact that it was passed under Obama. Didn't seem to get the same reaction when Medicare Part D was passed in 2003.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 02:27 AM
While there are things about the law that make sense

Kids on parents insurance until age 26 allows them to continue to sow some wild oats a little longer, and insurance companies really don't care because these people don't use their insurance because the are in large part healthy

And I like the fact that there are pools created for those with pre existing conditions. This would almost certainly have to be a government program as it is like buying auto insurance after an accident and forcing the company to pay for the repairs. So this will have to be supported by the tax dollars of all. But it is relatively few in the big picture that need this and it is only on the condition that is excluded by their private insurance

I like the fact that it tried to give people and groups buying power but the strict regulations made this backfire.

But lets face it the bill was not written to be successful was it??? :)

Ravi
09-24-2013, 04:45 AM
I enjoy the fact that it makes Republicans meltdown and act like small children.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 06:39 AM
Why can't you post something besides partisan crap once in a while, Marie? You post like a small child much of the time. Try growing up and joining the adults here in discussing things.

I like that it would make the market for health insurance national in scope. The ban on pre-existing conditions is good PROVIDED it doesn't encourage people to simply pay the penalty until they get sick and then go buy insurance.

I don't feel it addresses the cost-push problem in health care at all and may make it worse.

I think we have to move away from the concept of most health care insurance being provided or underwritten by employers. There are simply too many of those who don't do it anymore for the obvious cost reasons and also because the labor market is so glutted, they don't have to.

The fundamental flaw here is that it tried to do everything at once and is an administrative nightmare. This should have been approached on an incremental basis and the core principle should be decentralized. Any attempt to run the country's health care out of Washington D.C. is going to bomb big time. Hell, these people can't administer a few alternative energy programs, they can't collect taxes effectively either. They aren't qualified to run the nation's health care.

I see that Gallup came out with their latest poll and 60 percent of the country thinks the Federal government is too powerful. They are right.

Seven percent don't think it is powerful enough. I think that fringe is well represented on this board. :grin:

Cigar
09-24-2013, 06:42 AM
Real simple for me, American Citizens (young, old, sick and poor) will be able get insurance ... period ... end of story.

That makes me happy.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 06:42 AM
I enjoy the fact that it makes Republicans meltdown and act like small children.

Ok ... and that's just icing on the cake. :wink:

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 06:50 AM
Real simple for me, American Citizens (young, old, sick and poor) will be able get insurance ... period ... end of story.

That makes me happy.

Would you care to comment on why the CBO finds that some thirty million would NOT have insurance?

Would you also care to comment on this?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 06:50 AM
Ok ... and that's just icing on the cake. :wink:

You're another one that needs to grow up.

jillian
09-24-2013, 06:52 AM
I'm going to assume the supporters read it and can answer what they think it will do for middle class Americans.

since you oppose it so much, can we assume you've read it? and understand it?

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 06:54 AM
I enjoy the fact that it makes Republicans meltdown and act like small children.

See now as a liberal I would have thought that you would have like the fact that it enslaves people to the will of the government?'

Who would have thought

Cigar
09-24-2013, 06:56 AM
Since 1995, I have been writing Business Applications and Business Logic for three major insurers (Hallmark Health/BCBS, CNA and AllState)

There are are only 5 major business rules for insurance. NOTHING is more important to them than these 5 rules ... NOTHING



New Policy
Update/Modify Policy
Cancel Policy
Delete Policy
Reinstate Policy


... trust me, they have ZERO desire to insure you if you're young, old, sick or poor) ; that's a FACT straight from people who know.

So ... what does "your" 30+ Millions fellow American Citizens, who are suffering for no practical reason at all, do if they get sick and need healthcare?

If "your" own country isn't willing to step up and help it's own citizens ... then who will and why?

Bottom-Line ... ObamaCare will go into affect and there's nothing The Republicans Party can do to stop it.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 06:57 AM
Real simple for me, American Citizens (young, old, sick and poor) will be able get insurance ... period ... end of story.

That makes me happy.

You know what Cigar I hope that you are right, and all of us turn out to be fools, I would be a happy fool and gladly be made fun of, if you turn out to be right

hanger4
09-24-2013, 07:02 AM
Since 1995, I have been writing Business Applications and Business Logic for three major insurers (Hallmark Health/BCBS, CNA and AllState)

There are are only 5 major business rules for insurance. NOTHING is more important to them than these 5 rules ... NOTHING


New Policy
Update/Modify Policy
Cancel Policy
Delete Policy
Reinstate Policy

... trust me, they have ZERO desire to insure you if you're young, old, sick or poor) ; that's a FACT straight from people who know.

So ... what does "your" 30+ Millions fellow American Citizens, who are suffering for no practical reason at all, do if they get sick and need healthcare?

If "your" own country isn't willing to step up and help it's own citizens ... then who will and why?

Bottom-Line ... ObamaCare will go into affect and there's nothing The Republicans Party can do to stop it.

Nice cut"N'paste

plagiarize much ??

jillian
09-24-2013, 07:02 AM
See now as a liberal I would have thought that you would have like the fact that it enslaves people to the will of the government?'

Who would have thought

talk about a total and complete lack of understanding of government or liberalism...

as for slaves to government... that's kind of funny from someone who advocates governmental legislation of his religious dogma

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:02 AM
Since 1995, I have been writing Business Applications and Business Logic for three major insurers (Hallmark Health/BCBS, CNA and AllState)

There are are only 5 major business rules for insurance. NOTHING is more important to them than these 5 rules ... NOTHING


New Policy
Update/Modify Policy
Cancel Policy
Delete Policy
Reinstate Policy

... trust me, they have ZERO desire to insure you if you're young, old, sick or poor) ; that's a FACT straight from people who know.

So ... what does "your" 30+ Millions fellow American Citizens, who are suffering for no practical reason at all, do if they get sick and need healthcare?

If "your" own country isn't willing to step up and help it's own citizens ... then who will and why?

Bottom-Line ... ObamaCare will go into affect and there's nothing The Republicans Party can do to stop it.

Well once upon a time if you got sick you went to the hospital, but that will not necessarily be the case any longer.

So my question is, if it turns out that it does not provide actual healthcare, because providers do not accept this insurance of the Young opt out, so the prices rise to astronomical levels.

Or it continues to put pressure on the jobs markets.

If and only if this continues to happen, Will you oppose it and ask for it to be changed?

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:05 AM
Would you care to comment on why the CBO finds that some thirty million would NOT have insurance?

Would you also care to comment on this?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/

YES ... here is my comment .... if only 5 Millions American Citizens are helped by ObamaCare ... then that's 5 Millions American Citizens; that's No small Number

In 7 days Enrollment Registration begins ... deal with it like it or not ... either help improve it or get out of the way and let others; but Obamacare is here to stay forever!

:grin: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:06 AM
talk about a total and complete lack of understanding of government or liberalism...

as for slaves to government... that's kind of funny from someone who advocates governmental legislation of his religious dogma


well lets look at the liberal policies.

SS enslaves the old

Welfare enslaves the poor

They hate the rich or anyone that has the means to oppose their agenda

Now I am not saying that people like you are not happy being the tools of the democratic party, most of them don't even know they are tools

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:08 AM
Well once upon a time if you got sick you went to the hospital, but that will not necessarily be the case any longer.

So my question is, if it turns out that it does not provide actual healthcare, because providers do not accept this insurance of the Young opt out, so the prices rise to astronomical levels.

Or it continues to put pressure on the jobs markets.

If and only if this continues to happen, Will you oppose it and ask for it to be changed?

Apparently you've never heard of people being turned away or getting bankrupted for going to the hospital when they got sick ... that ok ... I wouldn't be surprised, most people don't know or see these things.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:08 AM
YES ... here is my comment .... if only 5 Millions American Citizens are helped by ObamaCare ... then that's 5 Millions American Citizens; that's No small Number

In 7 days Enrollment Registration begins ... deal with it like it or not ... either help improve it or get out of the way and let others; but Obamacare is here to stay forever!

:grin: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Now at the risk of sounding foolish as I know you enjoy poking fun, Do you think that it was designed to succeed? or do you think it is designed to bring single payer?

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:09 AM
Apparently you've never heard of people being turned away or getting bankrupted for going to the hospital when they got sick ... that ok ... I wouldn't be surprised, most people don't know or see these things.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:12 AM
Nice cut"N'paste

plagiarize much ??

Name the database migration path for the top Insurance Corporations?

... and what year did the Federal Regulations began that migration?

What was the application migration?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:15 AM
since you oppose it so much, can we assume you've read it? and understand it?

If you don't want to answer his question, don't. Why must you distract from the question? As a European liberal myself I find this habit from our American counterparts quite annoying. Pick up the gauntlet and argue for your position, but don't fall back on sophistry and useless rhetoric.

What do YOU like about it, specifically?

I had to read it over the last few years for my job and it's a complicated mess and I think its a horrible programme. You'd have done well with the Kucinich plan, but no one took a stab even tho Obamacare was passed without Republicans anyway.

This will cost your country tens of billions of dollars to prove a point and that's just deceit. Is that liberalism now?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:16 AM
Apparently you've never heard of people being turned away or getting bankrupted for going to the hospital when they got sick ... that ok ... I wouldn't be surprised, most people don't know or see these things.

Mate, it's insurance, not single payer. They could still quite possibly be bankrupted by a trip to the hospital.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:17 AM
Now at the risk of sounding foolish as I know you enjoy poking fun, Do you think that it was designed to succeed? or do you think it is designed to bring single payer?

I believe the Heritage Foundation designed it for single payer.

Regardless ... the debate was over after the last two Presidential Elections and the Supreme Curt decision.

October 1st 2013, The Affordable Care Act becomes a American reality; just like Social Security.

Deal with it ... or not ... it's really not that important to me if you do.

Ravi
09-24-2013, 07:19 AM
Why can't you post something besides partisan crap once in a while, Marie? You post like a small child much of the time. Try growing up and joining the adults here in discussing things.

I like that it would make the market for health insurance national in scope. The ban on pre-existing conditions is good PROVIDED it doesn't encourage people to simply pay the penalty until they get sick and then go buy insurance.

I don't feel it addresses the cost-push problem in health care at all and may make it worse.

I think we have to move away from the concept of most health care insurance being provided or underwritten by employers. There are simply too many of those who don't do it anymore for the obvious cost reasons and also because the labor market is so glutted, they don't have to.

The fundamental flaw here is that it tried to do everything at once and is an administrative nightmare. This should have been approached on an incremental basis and the core principle should be decentralized. Any attempt to run the country's health care out of Washington D.C. is going to bomb big time. Hell, these people can't administer a few alternative energy programs, they can't collect taxes effectively either. They aren't qualified to run the nation's health care.

I see that Gallup came out with their latest poll and 60 percent of the country thinks the Federal government is too powerful. They are right.

Seven percent don't think it is powerful enough. I think that fringe is well represented on this board. :grin:
My opinion was solicited. I simply told the truth. Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 07:20 AM
Cigar, do you ever have any argument other than "we won, get over it?"

You're another one who is way out of their pay grade in this group. Your grasp of issues is so immature and partisan that you look like a child and a fool.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:20 AM
Mate, it's insurance, not single payer. They could still quite possibly be bankrupted by a trip to the hospital.

There Could Quite Possibly be Unicorns.

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10700000/Unicorn-unicorns-10796171-1024-768.jpg


But I know for a FACT;
Enrollment Registration for the The Affordable Care Act begins October 1st 2013

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:21 AM
My opinion was solicited. I simply told the truth. Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval.

So, you'd cost taxpayers who are hurting to their core in your recession money out of their pocket for an expensive mistake just to upset Republicans?

Please never call yourself a liberal again.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:21 AM
Cigar, do you ever have any argument other than "we won, get over it?"

You're another one who is way out of their pay grade in this group. Your grasp of issues is so immature and partisan that you look like a child and a fool.

NO ... so get over it. :grin:

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 07:21 AM
My opinion was solicited. I simply told the truth. Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval.

Next time, why don't you try giving us your opinion on the topic rather than your childish partisan nonsense? You might even surprise us by showing us you have half a brain. As it stands now, you're doing a great job of convincing us otherwise with posts like the one I cited.

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:22 AM
There Could Quite Possibly be Unicorns.

You've prolly never been extremely poor where even a $500 dollar deductible can destroy your budget but I assure you that there are millions of American families in that position. They live paycheck to paycheck and with one in the hospital even that is too much.

I like our system. I like that anyone can walk in and not worry about anything. Obamacare is not that.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:24 AM
I believe the Heritage Foundation designed it for single payer.

Regardless ... the debate was over after the last two Presidential Elections and the Supreme Curt decision.

October 1st 2013, The Affordable Care Act becomes a American reality; just like Social Security.

Deal with it ... or not ... it's really not that important to me if you do.



Actually You seem to have forgotten Cigar? I am an employer of over 50 people? I don't have to deal with it?

I can actually use it to enhance my profits for one more year, and I will bet that I will get another extension after that!

You see Obama figure out that people really are going to loose their jobs over this and millions of them, that is not going to change, so he is not going to enact the employer mandate.

which actually turned your beloved program to a tax on the poor and middle class

And that to me is funny as shit :)

Ravi
09-24-2013, 07:26 AM
So, you'd cost taxpayers who are hurting to their core in your recession money out of their pocket for an expensive mistake just to upset Republicans?

Please never call yourself a liberal again.
I don't require your permission to post my opinions.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:30 AM
You've prolly never been extremely poor where even a $500 dollar deductible can destroy your budget but I assure you that there are millions of American families in that position. They live paycheck to paycheck and with one in the hospital even that is too much.

I like our system. I like that anyone can walk in and not worry about anything. Obamacare is not that.

Congrats you have figured it out!

They hope that it turns into single payer, and that is their only logical conclusion.

They don't understand that by the time that this happens there will be fewer doctors, hospitals, urgent care centers,

AND IT IS HIGHLY LIKELY THAT PEOPLE WILL NOT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT WITH THIER HEALTHCARE!

Many employers that were forced to turn their employees' out into the insurance pools will not be able to bring in ne expensive insurance plans

This will end one of two ways,

#1 It will end in single payer

#2 It will end where only the Rich have insurance and access to good medical care and the poor and middle class loose everything when they get sick

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:30 AM
I don't require your permission to post my opinions.

Whoever stated that you did? I implied it was shameful and flippant based on the suffering of the poor in your nation.

It's not a game to the family making $35k a year or $40k with children. Getting a leg over on the other party just for the sake of causing them angst does nothing for that family.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:30 AM
I don't require your permission to post my opinions.



apparently you don't require intelligence either?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:31 AM
Congrats you have figured it out!

They hope that it turns into single payer, and that is their only logical conclusion.

Contrary to the US scare reports on our system most of us are quite happy with it. I've been to hospitals in London and New York City and I see no difference between private and public.

Ravi
09-24-2013, 07:36 AM
Whoever stated that you did? I implied it was shameful and flippant based on the suffering of the poor in your nation.

It's not a game to the family making $35k a year or $40k with children. Getting a leg over on the other party just for the sake of causing them angst does nothing for that family.

The benefit of making Republicans meltdown and act like children is that it causes citizens to loose faith in them. Which results in them being driven from office and the potential chance that a new Republican party will form consisting of actual conservatives.

That would be a net win for my country.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:37 AM
Nice cut"N'paste

plagiarize much ??

Come-on hanger4 ... you won't find the answers in Google ... :laugh:

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:38 AM
The benefit of making Republicans meltdown and act like children is that it causes citizens to loose faith in them. Which results in them being driven from office and the potential chance that a new Republican party will form consisting of actual conservatives.

That would be a net win for my country.

Do you really, truly believe that hogwash? Half the country will stay Republican no matter what. It will be no net win and will succeed only in hurting the people who deserve it the least.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:41 AM
Contrary to the US scare reports on our system most of us are quite happy with it. I've been to hospitals in London and New York City and I see no difference between private and public.

I am not against single payer as long as it follows the Canadian extension that allows for private health co-ops above and beyond the single payer system

this would mean that besides paying my taxes to cover the healthcare system, I could pay into a private co-op that would be my provider of healthcare. This has taken some pressure off the single payer system in Canada, though I don't believe they call them co-ops

Now I realize that this is self serving, but I think that it is the way out of this mess in the USA, and something that all can get behind

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:41 AM
Do you really, truly believe that hogwash? Half the country will stay Republican no matter what. It will be no net win and will succeed only in hurting the people who deserve it the least.

Actually ... 47% :grin:

Ravi
09-24-2013, 07:43 AM
Do you really, truly believe that hogwash? Half the country will stay Republican no matter what. It will be no net win and will succeed only in hurting the people who deserve it the least.
There are more actual conservatives in the USA than seems apparent.

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:44 AM
Actually ... 47% :grin:

Thank you for making my point. Half the country will continue to vote Republican no matter what.

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 07:45 AM
There are more actual conservatives in the USA than seems apparent.

Look at the entire world. There's a reason most countries slide to two main factions. There will always, always be a half-half situation.

It's why partisanship and hate mongering is foolish. It just hurts people in the end with deadlock and stalemate.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 07:47 AM
Thank you for making my point. Half the country will continue to vote Republican no matter what.

:icon_thumleft: ... and I hope Republicans Never Change

Ravi
09-24-2013, 07:47 AM
Thank you for making my point. Half the country will continue to vote Republican no matter what.

No. They just won't vote. See our last election. Obama didn't win re-election because he was well loved. He won because the Republicans are in the toilet. And soon to flush themselves it appears.

Like I said, a good thing for my country.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:47 AM
Look at the entire world. There's a reason most countries slide to two main factions. There will always, always be a half-half situation.

It's why partisanship and hate mongering is foolish. It just hurts people in the end with deadlock and stalemate.

You do know that you are getting into an intellectual battle with an un-armed person don't you?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 08:25 AM
:icon_thumleft: ... and I hope Republicans Never Change

I'm truly not sure you even know what you're talking about. It's like a Magic 8 Ball talking to you, mate.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 08:28 AM
I'm truly not sure you even know what you're talking about. It's like a Magic 8 Ball talking to you, mate.

Oh! come on? A magic 8 ball comes up with an intelligent answer once in a while? :)

Cigar
09-24-2013, 08:36 AM
I'm truly not sure you even know what you're talking about. It's like a Magic 8 Ball talking to you, mate.

The Republican Party has diminished their brand into basally a Nut-Bar Organization.

Trust me, I have friends who are totally embarrassed to called Republicans. They are Conservatives, but they have no idea who these new Republicans are and they really don't want to have anything to do with them or be associated with them.

I'm a Liberal/Progressive and I'm proud that I actually care about "ALL" Americans, not just a subset of the Old Anointed Few and their narrow view of who's worthy to live in their world.

... so yes ... I want the Republican Party to keep on going what they are doing, because I know they're not smart enough to evolve into the real world they live in. So they may as well keep doing what they're doing until they become fully extinct.

Green Arrow
09-24-2013, 11:21 AM
So, you'd cost taxpayers who are hurting to their core in your recession money out of their pocket for an expensive mistake just to upset Republicans?

Please never call yourself a liberal again.

I think the debate over Obamacare and...well...pretty much every action of Obama and Democrats in Congress pretty much proves that there is actually a very, very small number of real liberals in America...and few of them ever actually vote.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 11:30 AM
I'm truly not sure you even know what you're talking about. It's like a Magic 8 Ball talking to you, mate.

:rofl:

Chloe
09-24-2013, 11:35 AM
I don't necessarily support obamacare as a whole but I do like how I can stay on my parents insurance.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:38 AM
I don't necessarily support obamacare as a whole but I do like how I can stay on my parents insurance.

What was your choice if you didn't stay on on your parents insurance?

Chloe
09-24-2013, 11:41 AM
What was your choice if you didn't stay on on your parents insurance?

I don't really know i'm sorry

nic34
09-24-2013, 12:08 PM
I am not against single payer as long as it follows the Canadian extension that allows for private health co-ops above and beyond the single payer system

this would mean that besides paying my taxes to cover the healthcare system, I could pay into a private co-op that would be my provider of healthcare. This has taken some pressure off the single payer system in Canada, though I don't believe they call them co-ops

Now I realize that this is self serving, but I think that it is the way out of this mess in the USA, and something that all can get behind


I like how everyone has hopped on the "universal-single-payer-whatever" healthcare bandwagon now.... where have you all been the last 60+ years?

You oppose every proposal at every turn, made feeble attempts to offer alternatives (tort reform and portability that do little but make the insurance cos. happy) but now you all want to scrap everything until we get a perfect plan..... might as well do nothing.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 12:10 PM
Take your complaint to the Democratic Party, Nic. They had control of the entire government but couldn't get enough of their own members to vote for single payer to make it happen.

Why don't you guys just try and get other states to do it? Why haven't other liberal states followed in the foot steps of Massachusetts?

Cigar
09-24-2013, 12:12 PM
Take your complaint to the Democratic Party, Nic. They had control of the entire government but couldn't get enough of their own members to vote for single payer to make it happen.

Why don't you guys just try and get other states to do it? Why haven't other liberal states followed in the foot steps of Massachusetts?

Tick-Tock ... in time Grasshopper ... in time ...

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 12:16 PM
I like how everyone has hopped on the "universal-single-payer-whatever" healthcare bandwagon now.... where have you all been the last 60+ years?

You oppose every proposal at every turn, made feeble attempts to offer alternatives (tort reform and portability that do little but make the insurance cos. happy) but now you all want to scrap everything until we get a perfect plan..... might as well do nothing.

Obamacare and perfect may as well not be in the same sentence for their certainly not even in the same universe. No one even tried to sell single payer or national health in your country. Obama could have used the same technique as Reagan, used the bully pulpit, gone on a road show, took the case to the American people but he did not.

You cannot blame Republicans for this one. They couldn't thwart what was never presented. They were presented with their own Heritage outlined corporatist solution. Why? Prolly because they were all colluding in back rooms somewhere to make their corporate sponsors rich and keep up the pretense of two distinct parties.

Chloe
09-24-2013, 12:38 PM
I think single payer will eventually be a reality in this country. That and a lot of other things would be a nice change I think.

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 12:54 PM
I think single payer will eventually be a reality in this country. That and a lot of other things would be a nice change I think.

We have national healthcare and in spite of the faux complaints of death panels it's quite good. No doctors are starving. People still attend medical school. Things are just fine.

Green Arrow
09-24-2013, 01:16 PM
I think single payer will eventually be a reality in this country. That and a lot of other things would be a nice change I think.

I agree with this.

jillian
09-24-2013, 01:17 PM
I think single payer will eventually be a reality in this country. That and a lot of other things would be a nice change I think.

i think you're right.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
i think you're right.

Then they will bitch about it again :laugh:

Green Arrow
09-24-2013, 01:28 PM
Then they will bitch about it again :laugh:

They'll have no grounds. Unlike Obamacare, it will be real universal healthcare that is proven to work successfully.

jillian
09-24-2013, 01:36 PM
They'll have no grounds. Unlike Obamacare, it will be real universal healthcare that is proven to work successfully.

they didn't like it so much when hillary tried to navigate those waters when her husband was president.

Ravi
09-24-2013, 01:44 PM
they didn't like it so much when hillary tried to navigate those waters when her husband was president.
Right, they supported a program that looked suspiciously like what they now call Obamacare.

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 01:45 PM
they didn't like it so much when hillary tried to navigate those waters when her husband was president.

That was like twenty years ago or something. Obama in 2008 had everyone inspired with his preacher's voice. He could have campaigned for universal health the way he campaigned to get elected by going town to town to make it happen.

He didn't because he was throwing his friends $$. Hence why insurance company stocks went up.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 01:47 PM
That was like twenty years ago or something. Obama in 2008 had everyone inspired with his preacher's voice. He could have campaigned for universal health the way he campaigned to get elected by going town to town to make it happen.

He didn't because he was throwing his friends $$. Hence why insurance company stocks went up.

Link us up there sparky ... or is that just your opinion.

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Link us up there sparky ... or is that just your opinion.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-20/health-care-stocks-will-climb-on-obamacare-charles-schwab-says.html

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/here-are-5-companies-that-love-obamacare.html/?a=viewall

Adelaide
09-24-2013, 02:00 PM
I don't really support Obamacare. I'm not going to pretend that I've read the entire piece of legislation, and preface further comments by saying that I could be wrong because I haven't. It seems like there are some well intentioned portions that will hopefully work out nicely, (Singularity and Chloe both brought up the coverage by parents' insurance until age 26) but overall it just seems like a massive mistake that is going to have very negative effects, some that are already being seen. I actually initially really liked Obama and really thought that his healthcare reform was going to be a great thing for the United States but then he came out with this; I agree with others that he should have worked for a single payer system and that perhaps there are nefarious reasons as to why that did not happen.

Green Arrow
09-24-2013, 02:02 PM
they didn't like it so much when hillary tried to navigate those waters when her husband was president.

Twenty years ago, yes. The party is different now.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 02:13 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-20/health-care-stocks-will-climb-on-obamacare-charles-schwab-says.html

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/here-are-5-companies-that-love-obamacare.html/?a=viewall

Are you trying to make an argument that Obamacare isn't killing Jobs ? :laugh:

jillian
09-24-2013, 02:24 PM
I don't really support Obamacare. I'm not going to pretend that I've read the entire piece of legislation, and preface further comments by saying that I could be wrong because I haven't. It seems like there are some well intentioned portions that will hopefully work out nicely, (Singularity and Chloe both brought up the coverage by parents' insurance until age 26) but overall it just seems like a massive mistake that is going to have very negative effects, some that are already being seen. I actually initially really liked Obama and really thought that his healthcare reform was going to be a great thing for the United States but then he came out with this; I agree with others that he should have worked for a single payer system and that perhaps there are nefarious reasons as to why that did not happen.

i think it should work out the way it did in massachusetts if people allow it to.

that said, would you leave room for the possibility that your antipathy toward the ACA is based, at least in part, on the constant criticisms from the far right?

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 02:25 PM
Are you trying to make an argument that Obamacare isn't killing Jobs ? :laugh:

No, I'll make the argument that the Democrats are corporate-sponsored just as the Republicans are.

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 02:27 PM
i think it should work out the way it did in massachusetts if people allow it to.

that said, would you leave room for the possibility that your antipathy toward the ACA is based, at least in part, on the constant criticisms from the far right?

It cannot because Massachusetts is a state. It did not have the database nightmare of Obamacare and it also doesn't have the privacy issues (hello IRS), the compulsion "or else", and all the other things which make Obamacare a nightmare.

You can say that no state tax in Florida works for the United States, as well. Let's have no taxes across the country and see how that works.

jillian
09-24-2013, 02:28 PM
It cannot because Massachusetts is a state. It did not have the database nightmare of Obamacare and it also doesn't have the privacy issues (hello IRS), the compulsion "or else", and all the other things which make Obamacare a nightmare.

You can say that no state tax in Florida works for the United States, as well. Let's have no taxes across the country and see how that works.

database nightmare?

moreso than for social security or any other well-run program?

i don't think so. but i know that's the meme.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 04:36 PM
I like how everyone has hopped on the "universal-single-payer-whatever" healthcare bandwagon now.... where have you all been the last 60+ years?

You oppose every proposal at every turn, made feeble attempts to offer alternatives (tort reform and portability that do little but make the insurance cos. happy) but now you all want to scrap everything until we get a perfect plan..... might as well do nothing.

No I still think that my plan would keep health care at a high level, but if the people are hell bent on socialized medicine, then I want to be able to belong to a co-op and I and others like me that have the means can pay our part of your healthcare and still hire the best doctors, surgeons and specialist for our co-ops and let those that wanted the three ring circus deal with it.

You did not get the part of why I wanted a co-op I am sure.

Socialized medical systems have their issues and I want a way so I can get around it. Sorry but I am out of hope that reality will set in before the day that a president comes on the TV and tells the people that the gravy train has come to and end.

That is the day I may actually die of laughter! But it will be fun to watch!

countryboy
09-24-2013, 04:57 PM
Would you care to comment on why the CBO finds that some thirty million would NOT have insurance?

Would you also care to comment on this?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/24/one-man-obamacare-nightmare/
What was the number of uninsured bandied about by libs before this nightmare was shoved down our collective throats? Forty million-ish? We went to all this trouble to insure ten million? Wouldn't it have been simpler and cheaper to simply pay for coverage for ten million people? But that's not what it's all about, is it?

AmazonTania
09-24-2013, 05:02 PM
database nightmare?

moreso than for social security or any other well-run program?

i don't think so. but i know that's the meme.

If Social Security is such a well-run program, how come it's yields a negative rate of return?

Would you accept negative earnings from a retirement plan you voluntarily put your own money into?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 05:11 PM
database nightmare?

moreso than for social security or any other well-run program?

i don't think so. but i know that's the meme.

Social security has had the same consistent numbers. It is a nightmare because you have multiple insurance companies with multiple databases, multiple codes, multiple names for the same people, etcetera to the tune of 340 million people.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 05:13 PM
Pretty sad when a Brit understands more about our government than some of us do, eh Jillian?

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 05:34 PM
Pretty sad when a Brit understands more about our government than some of us do, eh Jillian?

Well you are not us. We've had this system before people used this database for that written in this code instead of that with this tool instead of that and a million different mergers with bugs. It's a nightmare.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 05:46 PM
No, and we don't have Real Ale either. :grin:

We have some very decent beer here in Mexico, though.

Ravi
09-24-2013, 05:57 PM
If Brits are so smart why did they lose their empire?

AmazonTania
09-24-2013, 05:58 PM
There is no way you guys possibly won independence from us...

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 05:59 PM
I have to apologize for this one too, Paperback.

Poor thing slept through history, economics, civics, mathematics and science.

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 06:01 PM
If Brits are so smart why did they lose their empire?

They didn't. They changed the location and nature of it.

Ravi
09-24-2013, 06:16 PM
They didn't. They changed the location and nature of it.
By giving up or losing all their colonies? Okie dokie.

Peter1469
09-24-2013, 07:07 PM
If Brits are so smart why did they lose their empire?

Natural course. No empire lasts....

Peter1469
09-24-2013, 07:11 PM
There is no way you guys possibly won independence from us...

Sure we did. Had Britain not been occupied in European wars, perhaps we would have lost. And have to say God save the Queen and stuff like that. :wink: I got the chance to visit several Revolutionary battle sites, to include Yorktown. Pretty amazing places.

Chloe
09-24-2013, 07:12 PM
Natural course. Not empire lasts....

The US is trying really hard to keep its current version of an empire going but it won't last. It could be a really good thing for the world to not have a dominant empire (superpower) for a while anyway.

Peter1469
09-24-2013, 07:17 PM
The US is trying really hard to keep its current version of an empire going but it won't last. It could be a really good thing for the world to not have a dominant empire (superpower) for a while anyway.

I agree. Of course, I think that there will be more wars and violence around the world. But as we say in New Orleans, about our police department "Not our problem dudes." (NOPD)

The Xl
09-24-2013, 07:26 PM
They didn't. They changed the location and nature of it.

The international bankers pretty much run both America and the UK.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:33 PM
If Brits are so smart why did they lose their empire?

Because they started acting like we are now? That is how

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:41 PM
The US is trying really hard to keep its current version of an empire going but it won't last. It could be a really good thing for the world to not have a dominant empire (superpower) for a while anyway.

Yes if you like bloodshed. The super powers kept the peace, and an emerging China will take the role of super power and you will have courtiers fighting for regional power.

We will not be able to afford, to be involved but eventually will be sucked in as the conflict gets to a breaking point.

But there is now choice we are broke!

Peter1469
09-24-2013, 07:43 PM
China is not a superpower and really doesn't have much of a chance at it. I don't think they are dumb enough to want to be.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 07:46 PM
China is not a superpower and really doesn't have much of a chance at it. I don't think they are dumb enough to want to be.

Come on peter? You have been around the block a time or two, they will want to spread their interest and they will be one of the few nations with the money for expansion, they also have an aging population of young men with no wives or families and are over populated. some good wars for expansion solves a lot of problems.

Chloe
09-24-2013, 07:52 PM
Yes if you like bloodshed. The super powers kept the peace, and an emerging China will take the role of super power and you will have courtiers fighting for regional power.

We will not be able to afford, to be involved but eventually will be sucked in as the conflict gets to a breaking point.

But there is now choice we are broke!

It could easily easily be argued that superpowers only keep peace at the expense of all other nations that do not cower to it. There is plenty of bloodshed in empires and plenty of bloodshed from superpowers. How many people in the world have died as the result of the US and Russia as superpowers? I honestly don't see much peace.

The Xl
09-24-2013, 07:56 PM
It could easily easily be argued that superpowers only keep peace at the expense of all other nations that do not cower to it. There is plenty of bloodshed in empires and plenty of bloodshed from superpowers. How many people in the world have died as the result of the US and Russia as superpowers? I honestly don't see much peace.
This.

Peter1469
09-24-2013, 08:31 PM
Come on peter? You have been around the block a time or two, they will want to spread their interest and they will be one of the few nations with the money for expansion, they also have an aging population of young men with no wives or families and are over populated. some good wars for expansion solves a lot of problems.

And they are just a land power. Not a threat to us unless we are stupid enough to invade.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 09:18 PM
And they are just a land power. Not a threat to us unless we are stupid enough to invade.

I am sorry I did not mean that they would attack us, they will move to expand their power in their nape of the wave. And actually will be the only country to invest in a blue water navy, which they are starting to dabble in now.

Alyosha
09-25-2013, 06:32 AM
I am sorry I did not mean that they would attack us, they will move to expand their power in their nape of the wave. And actually will be the only country to invest in a blue water navy, which they are starting to dabble in now.

Which they are starting to dabble in now. I think that capitalism in China will make them less dangerous. As more people grow accustomed to having things easy the less apt they are to want war and things that make it hard.

That's just human nature.

zelmo1234
09-25-2013, 06:48 AM
Which they are starting to dabble in now. I think that capitalism in China will make them less dangerous. As more people grow accustomed to having things easy the less apt they are to want war and things that make it hard.

That's just human nature.


Building a blue water Navy!

Peter1469
09-25-2013, 03:30 PM
Building a blue water Navy!


It will take over a generation (after it is built) to gain the necessary experience / personnel to run it effectively. And if they ever wanted to project power in a significant way, they will have to gain the logistical ability to do so. No nation can go anywhere at will and sustain a combat mission - at least on a large scale, except the US.

Italy and France couldn't even sustain their air war with Libya without US support.

Boris The Animal
09-25-2013, 03:37 PM
The benefit of making Republicans meltdown and act like children is that it causes citizens to loose faith in them. Which results in them being driven from office and the potential chance that a new Republican party will form consisting of actual conservatives.

That would be a net win for my country.
What actual Conservatives? All you want is total one party Democrat rule, twit!!

Ravi
09-25-2013, 05:45 PM
What actual Conservatives? All you want is total one party Democrat rule, twit!!

Nah, I have a sneaking fondness for conservatives. Sadly, there don't seem to be any left in the country.

jillian
09-25-2013, 05:51 PM
Nah, I have a sneaking fondness for conservatives. Sadly, there don't seem to be any left in the country.

they're out there... they're just being drowned out by the nutbars... even worse... some who actually used to be actual conservatives are going full wingnut to appease the base so they can advance themselves. now that's a crying shame. but i suspect (hope) that in quashing cruz, the adult faction of the party has reasserted itself.

wise words from a still honorable man (whom i happen to disagree with on many issues)

Many of those who are in opposition right now were not here at the time, and did not take part in the debate and I respect that. But I'd like to remind them that the record is very clear of one of the most hard-fought, fair -- in my view -- debates that has taken place on the floor of the Senate in the time that I've been here.
"And then I'd remind my colleagues that in the 2012 election, 'Obamacare,' as it's called -- and I'll be more polite, the ACA -- was a subject that was a major issue in the campaign. I campaigned all over America for two months, everywhere I could, and in every single campaign rally I said, 'And we have to repeal and replace Obamacare.'
"Well, the people spoke. They spoke, much to my dismay, but they spoke and they reelected the president of the United States."
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/09/25/20695240-mccain-the-people-spoke?lite

Paperback Writer
09-25-2013, 06:21 PM
they're out there... they're just being drowned out by the nutbars... even worse... some who actually used to be actual conservatives are going full wingnut to appease the base so they can advance themselves. now that's a crying shame. but i suspect (hope) that in quashing cruz, the adult faction of the party has reasserted itself.

wise words from a still honorable man (whom i happen to disagree with on many issues)

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/09/25/20695240-mccain-the-people-spoke?lite




Wot? When you said nutbar I thought you were talking of John McCain. The man is one banana shy of a bunch.

Mainecoons
09-25-2013, 09:33 PM
Nah, I have a sneaking fondness for conservatives. Sadly, there don't seem to be any left in the country.

I'm sorry, dear, but based on what you post here I seriously doubt you have a conservative bone in your body or would know one if he/she bit you in the arse.

Don't pretend to be something you're not, the reality of you is quite sufficiently grim.

Ravi
09-26-2013, 03:44 AM
I'm sorry, dear, but based on what you post here I seriously doubt you have a conservative bone in your body or would know one if he/she bit you in the arse.

Don't pretend to be something you're not, the reality of you is quite sufficiently grim.
Aren't you sweet.

jillian
09-26-2013, 04:49 AM
Aren't you sweet.

pretty good if you can say that even sarcastically.

one has to wonder why some old creep finds insulting women on a messageboard so enticing.

zelmo1234
09-26-2013, 05:47 AM
pretty good if you can say that even sarcastically.

one has to wonder why some old creep finds insulting women on a messageboard so enticing.

most likely the same motivation that some of our fine ladies have, that causes them to make shit up on a message board?

But we really can't tell can we.

President Wayne
09-26-2013, 06:27 AM
I see this went from Obamacare to China. I don't have any problem with the idea of PPACA. It was a brilliant idea and display of American compassion. However, communism looked great on paper as well. It is when you start having to pay for them and implement them, that they go from awesome to bat shit crazy. PPACA should have been implemented through several smaller bills, giving the market time to adjust, as well as the wallets of the people. The whole damn thing hinges on the youth--18-30--buying insurance. Even the reports that HHS keeps putting out there, primarily snipes of data then actual reporting, requires it, but they won't say that.

Regardless, if this massive bill is so amazing, I want all of you to ask yourselves a few things. First, if it is so great, why did Congress, federal employees, the President, and other elected/appointed officials get opted out? Second, if this is so amazing, why did only 48% support it in the beginning, with a steady decrease as more about it came out? And finally, if this is so amazing, why does it require the President and members of Congress supporting it to try and sell it to the American people so bad, especially having to call in a former President that is here only because so many Democrats still revere him? I'm sorry, but I don't hold any reverence for a bill that cannot stand on its own, especially when it is passed without Congress reading it and then they are exempted from it. We don't have to abandon the idea of healthcare reform; hell everyone believes it needs reformed except those invested in the industry currently. But I think we should have an actual discussion and take the time to do it right, instead of a knee-jerk reaction to create legacy legislation, and that is frankly all this was--legacy legislation for the President.

On China, I don't believe they are a threat. Their population is aging and they have long had an over-population, centered in the cities, thus the one child laws. They have a massive land force, but they have been working under '90s style-tactics and using equipment from the '80s-early '00s. They are building a navy, but I don't think it is for anything more than a show of superpower status. Traditionally, the Asian nations have sought regional dominance. China might be an exception, but all this bull shit about how amazing they are is smoke and mirrors. Their infrastructure exists only in the main trading cities, with roads in-between. Their main nation, in the center, is still largely without the common services of small towns around the first world. Sure, their are paved roads, electricity, even Internet. But a good deal of the people cannot afford it. In addition, their economy is slipping and has been for about five years now. No, I don't see China as a threat and I don't believe they want a war anymore than we do. Besides, we have had over a decade of combat experience and advancement in technology and tactics.

countryboy
09-26-2013, 06:33 AM
Wot? When you said nutbar I thought you were talking of John McCain. The man is one banana shy of a bunch.
Basically, anyone who disagrees with her is a "nutbar", or a, "nutter". Pathetic really.

jillian
09-26-2013, 06:56 AM
most likely the same motivation that some of our fine ladies have, that causes them to make shit up on a message board?

But we really can't tell can we.

or you could stop calling people liars when what you want to say is you disagree.

but maybe you attribute your own behavior to others.

but we really can't tell. can we?

jillian
09-26-2013, 06:57 AM
Basically, anyone who disagrees with her is a "nutbar", or a, "nutter". Pathetic really.


really? funny. i disagree with peter and common all the time... i disagree with happy and junie on a lot of issues.

maybe they're just not nuts? but feel free to lie...

funny how no matter how polite one is to some people they have to act like creeps.

isn't it?

countryboy
09-26-2013, 07:01 AM
really? funny. i disagree with peter and common all the time...

maybe they're just not nuts? but feel free to lie...

funny how no matter how polite one is to some people they have to act like creeps.

isn't it?
Yes, but they are all birds of a feather.

So because you have been polite to me a couple of times, I'm supposed to overlook all the times you've been rude to me, and others? Maybe I did exaggerate, but you do tend to use the "nutter" label a little too liberally. No pun intended.

Nutter, teatards, nutbar, teabaggers, and on and on. It gets old jillian. And yes, it cuts both ways. It's a vicious circle.

jillian
09-26-2013, 07:04 AM
So because you have been polite to me a couple of times, I'm supposed to overlook all the times you've been rude to me, and others? Maybe I did exaggerate, but you do tend to use the "nutter" label a little too liberally. No pun intended.

Nutter, teatards, nutbar, teabaggers, and on and on. It gets old jillian. And yes, it cuts both ways. It's a vicious circle.

and how many times have rightwingers called us libtards? morons? and a myriad of other names, including baby killers, feminazis, etc. there's even one nutbar (yes, nutbar) who likes telling me i'm fat, stupid and ugly. yet, i'm smarter than he is, and certainly neither fat nor ugly. and he wouldn't know if i were.

and yes, people outside societal norms are extremists, nutbars, and wackos. you can like that or not. but normal people don't talk about secession or overthrow of the government or compare a law that provides affordable health insurace to people who can't afford it to "nazis".

but you have no cause to insult me personally. and i am polite to you.... when you are polite to me. but i'm certainly not going to be polite to someone who starts a discussion by telling me i'm stupid or that i somehow live on handouts... not really complicated. and people who say things like that should expect to be insulted in return.

oh... and stating that i somehow call people names because i "disagree" is a fabrication. see above...

Codename Section
09-26-2013, 07:11 AM
and how many times have rightwingers called us libtards? morons? and a myriad of other names, including baby killers, feminazis, etc. there's even one nutbar (yes, nutbar) who likes telling me i'm fat, stupid and ugly. yet, i'm smarter than he is, and certainly neither fat nor ugly. and he wouldn't know if i were.

and yes, people outside societal norms are extremists, nutbars, and wackos. you can like that or not. but normal people don't talk about secession or overthrow of the government or compare a law that provides affordable health insurace to people who can't afford it to "nazis".

but you have no cause to insult me personally. and i am polite to you.... when you are polite to me. but i'm certainly not going to be polite to someone who starts a discussion by telling me i'm stupid or that i somehow live on handouts... not really complicated. and people who say things like that should expect to be insulted in return.

oh... and stating that i somehow call people names because i "disagree" is a fabrication. see above...

I think that unless someone is a psychiatrist they have no business diagnosing people or deciding what is normal behavior. "Normal" is not homosexuality, but would you call them crazy just because 9 out of 10 other people like the opposite sex?

Wanting to have a different type of government is not crazy, it's a preference. People all over the world have done this since the dawn of time. Wanting less government or to split off so you can have less government don't make you crazy. It's just a preference.

What about during Bush's re-election when everyone wanted to split the north and join with Canada or move to Canada?

jillian
09-26-2013, 07:11 AM
I don't know what's in it. How can I be for or against something if I don't know?

you can actually read about it.

https://www.healthcare.gov/how-does-the-affordable-care-act-affect-me/

countryboy
09-26-2013, 07:12 AM
and how many times have rightwingers called us libtards? morons? and a myriad of other names, including baby killers, feminazis, etc. there's even one nutbar (yes, nutbar) who likes telling me i'm fat, stupid and ugly. yet, i'm smarter than he is, and certainly neither fat nor ugly. and he wouldn't know if i were.

and yes, people outside societal norms are extremists, nutbars, and wackos. you can like that or not. but normal people don't talk about secession or overthrow of the government or compare a law that provides affordable health insurace to people who can't afford it to "nazis".

but you have no cause to insult me personally. and i am polite to you.... when you are polite to me. but i'm certainly not going to be polite to someone who starts a discussion by telling me i'm stupid or that i somehow live on handouts... not really complicated. and people who say things like that should expect to be insulted in return.
You see, that's what I mean. Why do you get to decide what is outside of "societal norms"? As you are fond of saying, we just disagree. The government is out of control, it is not outside the realm of "societal norms" to want to correct that problem. Our own Declaration of Independence and Constitution allow for the overthrow of out of control governments. It is a normal thing to think.

And no, you are not always polite to me. In fact, you ignored my challenge to you to be civil with one another.

Please refer to the bolded portion of your post. It should clarify things for you. Vicious cycle?

countryboy
09-26-2013, 07:13 AM
I think that unless someone is a psychiatrist they have no business diagnosing people or deciding what is normal behavior. "Normal" is not homosexuality, but would you call them crazy just because 9 out of 10 other people like the opposite sex?

Wanting to have a different type of government is not crazy, it's a preference. People all over the world have done this since the dawn of time. Wanting less government or to split off so you can have less government don't make you crazy. It's just a preference.

What about during Bush's re-election when everyone wanted to split the north and join with Canada or move to Canada?
For libs it seems, the gander can go straight to hell.

jillian
09-26-2013, 07:29 AM
You see, that's what I mean. Why do you get to decide what is outside of "societal norms"? As you are fond of saying, we just disagree. The government is out of control, it is not outside the realm of "societal norms" to want to correct that problem. Our own Declaration of Independence and Constitution allow for the overthrow of out of control governments. It is a normal thing to think.

And no, you are not always polite to me. In fact, you ignored my challenge to you to be civil with one another.

Please refer to the bolded portion of your post. It should clarify things for you. Vicious cycle?

you think it's normal to talk about armed insurrection against the US government?

you think it's normal to compare a law providing health coverage to the murder of 11 million people?

really?

countryboy
09-26-2013, 07:34 AM
you think it's normal to talk about armed insurrection against the US government?

you think it's normal to compare a law providing health coverage to the murder of 11 million people?

really?
The first question, yes. And so did the founding fathers. Why would it be abnormal to talk about throwing off the chains of tyranny?

I didn't understand the second question, but I suspect you have mischaracterized something, as liberals are wont to do.

Codename Section
09-26-2013, 07:39 AM
you think it's normal to talk about armed insurrection against the US government?

Who is talking about armed insurrection? I haven't heard anyone talking about armed insurrection here or anywhere else outside of Syria.




you think it's normal to compare a law providing health coverage to the murder of 11 million people?


It all starts from the same spot, authoritarian government. If elected officials represent the states and people in their district then it was immoral to ram Obamacare down their throats because they had enough of a majority to make it "unanimous".

Cut it however it was just wrong. It's saying because I'm bigger and stronger right now you don't matter.

jillian
09-26-2013, 07:43 AM
Who is talking about armed insurrection? I haven't heard anyone talking about armed insurrection here or anywhere else outside of Syria.

i think perhaps you've missed some of the posts on the board.



It all starts from the same spot, authoritarian government. If elected officials represent the states and people in their district then it was immoral to ram Obamacare down their throats because they had enough of a majority to make it "unanimous".

Cut it however it was just wrong. It's saying because I'm bigger and stronger right now you don't matter.

again, the murder of 11 million people is not the same as passing a law to provide health coverage. the caselaw on this subject is clear and goes very far back in our history. the constitution grants broad latitude to the government in areas of interstate commerce and general welfare of the populace. you can disagree with the law... but it is neither autocratic nor despotic... and certainly isn't murderous.

so yes, when people use that extreme verbiage... they're extreme.

you know, the person i idolize most in this world, my dad, is a rightwinger..... (he;s also older and the world has changed a lot since he was a kid) but at some point, no matter what we disagree on... he'll say something like "they're all scum"... and my response is generally "yes, but we tolerate our own scum". and ultimately... that's what politics is.

there hasn't been a statesman in a while... but they also aren't hitler...... (though i can name a few who supported him back in the day).

Codename Section
09-26-2013, 07:47 AM
i think perhaps you've missed some of the posts on the board.

Show me. I don't believe anyone would post that on a public forum.




again, the murder of 11 million people is not the same as passing a law to provide health coverage. the caselaw on this subject is clear and goes very far back in our history. the constitution grants broad latitude to the government in areas of interstate commerce and general welfare of the populace. you can disagree with the law... but it is neither autocratic nor despotic... and certainly isn't murderous.

It is autocratic. When 46% of the public doesn't want it and you force it on them just because you can without a single vote from their representatives that is autocratic.

The Patriot Act was also autocratic and a worse evil, IMO. When you use a period of grieving to get what you want it's just slimey.

Mainecoons
09-26-2013, 08:12 AM
Very well put, Codename. And this was exactly why the Senate was intended to represent the states rather than be a "popular" body, to prevent what happened with ObamaCare. Without the 17th, the Senate would not be led by the likes of Harry Reid and it would not have passed that bill.

To use the general welfare clause in the preamble as the excuse for this kind of takeover is pretty silly. May as well just call the preamble the Constitution and throw the rest out. Which has or is happening to a large degree here.

countryboy
09-26-2013, 08:15 AM
the constitution grants broad latitude to the government in areas of interstate commerce and general welfare of the populace.
Actually, it doesn't. Only in the mind of a liberal. The Constitution is very specific, and doesn't "grant" anything. Libs only like the Constitution when they can twist the meaning to advance their twisted agendas.

Ravi
09-26-2013, 09:10 AM
The first question, yes. And so did the founding fathers. Why would it be abnormal to talk about throwing off the chains of tyranny?

I didn't understand the second question, but I suspect you have mischaracterized something, as liberals are wont to do.
Dude. Priceless.

Mainecoons
09-26-2013, 09:20 AM
Dude. Priceless.

Yep, but your responses usually are.

4071

jillian
09-26-2013, 10:36 AM
Actually, it doesn't. Only in the mind of a liberal. The Constitution is very specific, and doesn't "grant" anything. Libs only like the Constitution when they can twist the meaning to advance their twisted agendas.

our legal system is a common law system. the constitution is only construed in conjunction with the caselaw. i'm sorry that you've been misinformed as to what the constitution is and how our legal system works.


Common-law courts base their decisions on prior judicial pronouncements rather than on legislative enactments. Where a statute governs the dispute, judicial interpretation of that statute determines how the law applies. Common-law judges rely on their predecessors' decisions of actual controversies, rather than on abstract codes or texts, to guide them in applying the law. Common-law judges find the grounds for their decisions in law reports, which contain decisions of past controversies. Under the doctrine of Stare Decisis (http://thepoliticalforums.com/Stare+Decisis), common-law judges are obliged to adhere to previously decided cases, or precedents, where the facts are substantially the same. A court's decision is binding authority for similar cases decided by the same court or by lower courts within the same jurisdiction. The decision is not binding on courts of higher rank within that jurisdiction or in other jurisdictions, but it may be considered as persuasive authority.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Common+law

the constitution isn't "specific" at all... and there are 200 plus years of caselaw to prove that... notwithstanding what you've been told by people who hate our system of government.

Green Arrow
09-26-2013, 01:55 PM
Who is talking about armed insurrection? I haven't heard anyone talking about armed insurrection here or anywhere else outside of Syria.

Then let me be the first: I think we ought to disband the government, forcibly if necessary, and allow people to operate as autonomous communities. Or, at the very least, disband the government in your area and don't let them back in.

Cigar
09-26-2013, 01:58 PM
Then let me be the first: I think we ought to disband the government, forcibly if necessary, and allow people to operate as autonomous communities. Or, at the very least, disband the government in your area and don't let them back in.

You first ... start at 43rd king Drive, Chicago ... let us know how it works out.

Green Arrow
09-26-2013, 02:14 PM
You first ... start at 43rd king Drive, Chicago ... let us know how it works out.

I'd start here in Richmond, Virginia. It is my city, and my state, thus my responsibility.

nic34
09-26-2013, 02:20 PM
It all starts from the same spot, authoritarian government. If elected officials represent the states and people in their district then it was immoral to ram Obamacare down their throats because they had enough of a majority to make it "unanimous".

Ram what? How about insurance companies.... that any better?

That's what "Obamacare" is... with a few regulations.

Get over it.

Cigar
09-26-2013, 02:52 PM
I'd start here in Richmond, Virginia. It is my city, and my state, thus my responsibility.

You're Funeral also ... :wink:

Cigar
09-26-2013, 02:52 PM
Ram what? How about insurance companies.... that any better?

That's what "Obamacare" is... with a few regulations.

Get over it.

All the people bitching and complaining have insurance :rollseyes:

Cthulhu
09-26-2013, 03:23 PM
I'm going to assume the supporters read it and can answer what they think it will do for middle class Americans.

I think they like the idea that somebody is paying for it and they are not. At least at its root.

But these types are dull witted fools who probably also thought Clinton was faithful to his wife too.

Cthulhu
09-26-2013, 03:24 PM
Ram what? How about insurance companies.... that any better?

Yes actually. If I don't like mine I can fire their obnoxious ass. Can't say the same with the gubbermint now can ya?



That's what "Obamacare" is... with a few regulations.

Get over it.

Obamacare has little to do with health or caring. It has everything to do with control.

jillian
09-26-2013, 03:26 PM
I think they like the idea that somebody is paying for it and they are not. At least at its root.

But these types are dull witted fools who probably also thought Clinton was faithful to his wife too.

Except that someone else isn't paying for it.....which is why the heritage foundation looooved the mandate. It was about "personal responsibility". Well, until this president liked the idea.

Cthulhu
09-26-2013, 03:31 PM
Except that someone else isn't paying for it.....which is why the heritage foundation looooved the mandate. It was about "personal responsibility". Well, until this president liked the idea.

Lies. It is redistribution of wealth via medicine, or some cruel facsimile to healthcare.

But tell me where the Heritage Foundation endorsed it. I'd like to see that. Havest thou a source to prove thy odious claims?

jillian
09-26-2013, 04:07 PM
Lies. It is redistribution of wealth via medicine, or some cruel facsimile to healthcare.

But tell me where the Heritage Foundation endorsed it. I'd like to see that. Havest thou a source to prove thy odious claims?

I'm not the one who said it. Take it up with the heritage foundation and Romney. They seem to like mandates. Or were you not aware that the mandate was their idea? And I didn't use the word "endorse", did I? The mandate was their idea. So don't blame the president for using it.

Redistribution of wealth? Bit of a drama queen

Cthulhu
09-26-2013, 04:19 PM
I'm not the one who said it. Take it up with the heritage foundation and Romney. They seem to like mandates. Or were you not aware that the mandate was their idea? And I didn't use the word "endorse", did I? The mandate was their idea. So don't blame the president for using it.

Redistribution of wealth? Bit of a drama queen

I noticed you still didn't provide a source for the claims.

...are you foolish enough to think he will provide one? Who's the bigger idiot here? You or him?

Are you so sure it is a him?

You're dodging the question.

Fine, we're both idiots.

No. Now you're trying to equalize it to hide your shame. You know better and you fell for it. Embrace it, own it, wear it. Admit it.

I hate you.

Evil: 1 Me: 0

After thinking about this I have decided you will not see reason.

A little late Sherlock....but better late than never, you can't save face now though.

I'm doing on principle now, leave it alone.

If you can't see the prime source of wealth, and that which it provides, we cannot have this debate. But I'm sure we could both try to convince each other of our innate mental superiority for a while. What pays for healthcare? Where does money come from? Who earns it? Takes it? Uses it by force at the barrel of a gun?

So much for principles...

Since when did you care for principles?

Fine. Evil: 1, Me: 1

Mainecoons
09-26-2013, 07:05 PM
After thinking about this I have decided you will not see reason.

Welcome to the club. We have this pathetic little group of partisan hacks here of which this is one. It won't take you long to find the rest.

Cthulhu
09-26-2013, 07:07 PM
[/COLOR]

Welcome to the club. We have this pathetic little group of partisan hacks here of which this is one. It won't take you long to find the rest.

It is part of the fora ecology. Albeit an undesired part. Stupid is found everywhere.

Mainecoons
09-26-2013, 07:38 PM
Nah, I have a sneaking fondness for conservatives. Sadly, there don't seem to be any left in the country.

Marie definition of conservative: Anyone who agrees with liberals and helps us grow government and raise taxes.

See also: Definition of moderate: Anyone who agrees with liberals and helps us grow government and raise taxes.

zelmo1234
09-26-2013, 07:39 PM
or you could stop calling people liars when what you want to say is you disagree.

but maybe you attribute your own behavior to others.

but we really can't tell. can we?

I will do that when you stop making false statements, You see it only works in liberal land that when a liberal says something it becomes fact.

If you try and use false information I am going to call you on it and back it up with a link, Now once we have the facts down, we are free to disagree on what should be done about them,

but I am not going to start from a position of fantasy

I understand that the facts of the economy and some of these Obama administration polices are against you right now. But I lived through GWB and you can get through the Bamster

zelmo1234
09-26-2013, 07:45 PM
You first ... start at 43rd king Drive, Chicago ... let us know how it works out.

What do you mean, it is completed there, not even the police will go down there after dark! No sense going over something that is already finished :)

zelmo1234
09-26-2013, 07:50 PM
Except that someone else isn't paying for it.....which is why the heritage foundation looooved the mandate. It was about "personal responsibility". Well, until this president liked the idea.

I dis agree? there are other people paying for it!

http://obamacarefacts101.com/obamacare-subsidy-calculator.htm


You see there are a bunch of new taxes in the ACA and the mandates that cause me to provide insurance for my employees and then pay a crap load o taxes to pay for other people insurance.

Despite what they have told you this is not a free program

zelmo1234
09-26-2013, 07:56 PM
I'm not the one who said it. Take it up with the heritage foundation and Romney. They seem to like mandates. Or were you not aware that the mandate was their idea? And I didn't use the word "endorse", did I? The mandate was their idea. So don't blame the president for using it.

Redistribution of wealth? Bit of a drama queen

Well I think we might just have to break out your theme song again, this is the third time today I have had to go back and prove you wrong on something,,,,,,,,, AGAIN! You wait a day and then ring up the same lies in another post and hope that someone will buy what you are selling.

The heritage foundations wanted to set up insurance co-ops or pools, not the mandate, though Romney did set up a mandate.

So as usual, you are not telling the truth.

And Romney care has made Mass that highest priced healthcare state in the union?

This is a bill that takes from people that should be creating jobs and gives it to others in the form of insurance that no doctor or hospital is planning on takeing

Adelaide
09-26-2013, 11:39 PM
Marie definition of conservative: Anyone who agrees with liberals and helps us grow government and raise taxes.

See also: Definition of moderate: Anyone who agrees with liberals and helps us grow government and raise taxes.

I don't think I can speak for Marie/Ravi, but that's not what a moderate is to me when I think of the US and I don't like that conservatives generally are saying moderates are want-to-be Democrats or liberal, or whatever. I think they're the balancing force between the two polar opposites (although to me both parties have way too much in common that is negative). They're the people who aren't going to vote for the same party in election after election just because they're so partisan they won't do otherwise. They aren't just going to spew party lines. They balance out things, in my opinion.