PDA

View Full Version : Krugman re Obamacare: What matters is how the thing works



Cigar
09-24-2013, 08:27 AM
Krugman re Obamacare: What matters is how the thing works ó and that, in turn, depends crucially onsufficient numbers of young, currently uninsured people signing up for the exchanges. Advocates will try to get those people signed up; Republicans will try to convince them not to. So how are the two sidesí chances.

Well, letís think about who weíre talking about: Young. Currently uninsured, which generally means not very affluent, and also tends to mean nonwhite more than average. In other words, basically the opposite of the profile of Tea Party backers. Also, by the way, more or less the opposite of midterm voters.

Fortunately for Obama, this field of battle favors his side. To pass the law, he needed to win over skeptical senators. To defend it in court, he needed conservative jurists. But identifying and persuading young people is a battle Obama does not expect to lose to Republicans ...

I donít know whether anyone thought this out in advance, but the battle of the exchanges is indeed being fought on remarkably favorable ground for the reformers. And I, for one, find the thought of conservatives humiliated by an army of tweeting hipsters remarkably cheering.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/attack-of-the-killer-hipsters/?_r=0

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 08:34 AM
why would a young healthy person sign up for the exchanges?

Stupidest thing that I have ever heard of.

Yeah! we have a great idea for you, we need you to spend about 15K of your earnings to cover yourself with a plan that you will not likely ever use. In return we will give you a tax cut of about 5K so it will only be about 13K out of pocket.

Or you could pay a fine of up to 750.00 and pay for your minor health issues out of pocket another 1 to 2K per year, however if you get really sick? You will be able to sign up for the insurance and they will be forced to cover your medical costs.

Yep that is a real sales pitch

If anyone that is under 40 and healthy signs up for these pools, they are idiots

jillian
09-24-2013, 08:49 AM
Krugman re Obamacare: What matters is how the thing works ó and that, in turn, depends crucially onsufficient numbers of young, currently uninsured people signing up for the exchanges. Advocates will try to get those people signed up; Republicans will try to convince them not to. So how are the two sidesí chances.

Well, letís think about who weíre talking about: Young. Currently uninsured, which generally means not very affluent, and also tends to mean nonwhite more than average. In other words, basically the opposite of the profile of Tea Party backers. Also, by the way, more or less the opposite of midterm voters.

Fortunately for Obama, this field of battle favors his side. To pass the law, he needed to win over skeptical senators. To defend it in court, he needed conservative jurists. But identifying and persuading young people is a battle Obama does not expect to lose to Republicans ...

I donít know whether anyone thought this out in advance, but the battle of the exchanges is indeed being fought on remarkably favorable ground for the reformers. And I, for one, find the thought of conservatives humiliated by an army of tweeting hipsters remarkably cheering.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/attack-of-the-killer-hipsters/?_r=0

he's largely correct... except that the "base" of the teaparty is not affluent, and votes against their own interests because....

of the kenyansocialistmuslimcommunistterroristsupporter in the white house.

President Wayne
09-24-2013, 08:53 AM
Krugman re Obamacare: What matters is how the thing works — and that, in turn, depends crucially onsufficient numbers of young, currently uninsured people signing up for the exchanges. Advocates will try to get those people signed up; Republicans will try to convince them not to. So how are the two sides’ chances.

Well, let’s think about who we’re talking about: Young. Currently uninsured, which generally means not very affluent, and also tends to mean nonwhite more than average. In other words, basically the opposite of the profile of Tea Party backers. Also, by the way, more or less the opposite of midterm voters.

Fortunately for Obama, this field of battle favors his side. To pass the law, he needed to win over skeptical senators. To defend it in court, he needed conservative jurists. But identifying and persuading young people is a battle Obama does not expect to lose to Republicans ...

I don’t know whether anyone thought this out in advance, but the battle of the exchanges is indeed being fought on remarkably favorable ground for the reformers. And I, for one, find the thought of conservatives humiliated by an army of tweeting hipsters remarkably cheering.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/attack-of-the-killer-hipsters/?_r=0

Given that the "young" they are referring to needing are 18-25 and Obama signed an EO allowing you to stay on your parents' insurance until 26, I don't think he has that solid of a change. Besides, polls have been consistently showing Americans against PPACA, including Unions that aren't getting the exemption that federal workers, Congress, President, big labor and big Union got. Good enough for thee, not for me.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 09:08 AM
why would a young healthy person sign up for the exchanges?

Stupidest thing that I have ever heard of.

Yeah! we have a great idea for you, we need you to spend about 15K of your earnings to cover yourself with a plan that you will not likely ever use. In return we will give you a tax cut of about 5K so it will only be about 13K out of pocket.

Or you could pay a fine of up to 750.00 and pay for your minor health issues out of pocket another 1 to 2K per year, however if you get really sick? You will be able to sign up for the insurance and they will be forced to cover your medical costs.

Yep that is a real sales pitch

If anyone that is under 40 and healthy signs up for these pools, they are idiots

Why would a young Healthy Person Sign-Up for Health Insurance?

Really ... ?

A) because it's cheaper and easier when you're young and healthy.
B) good healthcare when you're young sure as shit helps ensure you'll get old healthier, because your body recover faster.
C) young people historically are not as cautious.


... WTF ... if I didn't see it in writing I wouldn't believe an intelligent person would actually ask why ANYONE needs insurance ... especially the young.

OMG :rollseyes: this explains everything

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 09:14 AM
Insurance is to augment catastrophic and unexpected events. Car insurance, for example. I don't believe in health insurance because I think it should just be a provided benefit for losing close to half your cheque each month.

That's what I don't understand about Yanks at all. Between federal income tax, payroll tax, state, local, business taxes et al, half your cheque is gone and all most people get is a miserable bunch of schools for their children if they have any. Poor people get a lot, but they don't pay into the system.

What does the middle class get for all the money they toss in the pot? Not bloody much. You should at least get healthcare for all you're paying.

Chris
09-24-2013, 09:27 AM
Krugman re Obamacare: What matters is how the thing works — and that, in turn, depends crucially onsufficient numbers of young, currently uninsured people signing up for the exchanges. Advocates will try to get those people signed up; Republicans will try to convince them not to. So how are the two sides’ chances.

Well, let’s think about who we’re talking about: Young. Currently uninsured, which generally means not very affluent, and also tends to mean nonwhite more than average. In other words, basically the opposite of the profile of Tea Party backers. Also, by the way, more or less the opposite of midterm voters.

Fortunately for Obama, this field of battle favors his side. To pass the law, he needed to win over skeptical senators. To defend it in court, he needed conservative jurists. But identifying and persuading young people is a battle Obama does not expect to lose to Republicans ...

I don’t know whether anyone thought this out in advance, but the battle of the exchanges is indeed being fought on remarkably favorable ground for the reformers. And I, for one, find the thought of conservatives humiliated by an army of tweeting hipsters remarkably cheering.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/attack-of-the-killer-hipsters/?_r=0



More partisan hackery from a Nobel econ prof.

Of course it depends on numbers, socialism depends on everyone conforming. Doesn't mean healthcare will improve or cost less.

Chris
09-24-2013, 09:29 AM
Why would a young Healthy Person Sign-Up for Health Insurance?

Really ... ?

A) because it's cheaper and easier when you're young and healthy.
B) good healthcare when you're young sure as shit helps ensure you'll get old healthier, because your body recover faster.
C) young people historically are not as cautious.


... WTF ... if I didn't see it in writing I wouldn't believe an intelligent person would actually ask why ANYONE needs insurance ... especially the young.

OMG :rollseyes: this explains everything



Your argument might make sense to you but the question was why would a healthy young person want to sign up? You haven't addressed that.

zelmo1234
09-24-2013, 09:31 AM
Why would a young Healthy Person Sign-Up for Health Insurance?

Really ... ?

A) because it's cheaper and easier when you're young and healthy.
B) good healthcare when you're young sure as shit helps ensure you'll get old healthier, because your body recover faster.
C) young people historically are not as cautious.


... WTF ... if I didn't see it in writing I wouldn't believe an intelligent person would actually ask why ANYONE needs insurance ... especially the young.

OMG :rollseyes: this explains everything

OK cigar, all of the tests for cancer screening and heart disease, all start to take place in your 40's not sure about mammograms? You ladies will have to help me out.

In large part it is car accidents, which are covered under your car insurance. and minor sickness and of course broken bones, which are all coverable out of pocket'


but lets say that you need tests for something that comes up or you are playing in a pick up sport and blow you knee.


Not a problem the cover pre existing conditions and they just go and buy insurance


like I said if you are under 40 and not paying the fine you are an idiot

jillian
09-24-2013, 09:34 AM
Your argument might make sense to you but the question was why would a healthy young person want to sign up? You haven't addressed that.

because young people have a high rate of traumatic injuries, need prenatal care, have babies and get cancer...

Adults aged 25-49Almost twice as many cases are diagnosed in women (an average of 21,426 cases per year in the UK between 2008 and 2010) compared with men (10,941); this difference can be attributed to the high incidence of breast cancer (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/breast/incidence/) in women, which accounts for 45% of all female cancers in this age group (Figure 3.3).1-4 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#source1) The vast majority of these breast cancers will be diagnosed symptomatically since most women aged 25-49 are too young for routine breast screening (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/breast/screening/). Women between the ages of 50-70 are invited for breast screening every three years in the UK. The programme in England is currently extending the age group to include women aged 47-73 by 2016.
Other common cancers for females in this age group are malignant melanoma (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/skin/incidence/) and cervical cancer (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/cervix/incidence/) (9% each), though many more cervical cancers will have been prevented though cervical screening (http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/ssNODELINK/CervicalScreeningInTheUK). Women are invited for cervical screening every three or five years in the UK. The target age range varies by country: women are invited between the ages of 25 to 64 in England and Northern Ireland; in Scotland and Wales cervical screening starts at age 20. It is estimated that cervical screening saves up to 5,000 lives each year in the UK,8 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#source8) preventing between 45% and 75% of cervical cancer cases in women who attend regularly.9 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#source9)
The most common cancers in men aged 25-49 (Figure 3.2) are testicular (http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/types/testis/incidence/) (15%), malignant melanoma (11%) and bowel (http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/types/bowel/incidence/) (9%).1-4 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#source1) Prostate cancer (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/prostate/incidence/) only contributes 4% of the cancers diagnosed in this age group. When breast cancer and the sex-specific cancers for both men and women are excluded from the male:female ratio, a greater number of men are at risk of the non sex-specific cancers.10,11 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#source10)]

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/#Adults

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 09:35 AM
From Politico


The Obamacare that consumers will finally be able to sign up for next
week is a long way from the health plan President Barack Obama first
pitched to the nation.

Millions of low-income Americans won’t receive coverage. Many workers at small businesses won’t get a choice of
insurance plans right away. Large employers won’t need to provide insurance for another year. Far more states than expected won’t run their own insurance marketplaces. And a growing number of workers won’t get to keep their employer-provided coverage.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/obamacare-one-blow-after-another-97231.html#ixzz2fowvqN18



Why? Because you lads are governed by idiots. So you'll throw the lower middle class under a bus so that you can screw up everyone's health care model so that MAYBE someday you can get single payer, eh American Dems?

It's a lie. It's deceitful. It's lazy. It's immoral. You should have supported Kucinich and got out and marched instead of getting all teary-eyed with the Obama fandom.

Chris
09-24-2013, 10:25 AM
because young people have a high rate of traumatic injuries, need prenatal care, have babies and get cancer...
[h=2]]

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/age/#Adults



Same thing, same criticism, you're thinking for others, and assuming your thinking is that of today's youth--called the psychologist's fallacy, btw.

The question is how do young people think? I doubt many have a care in the world beyond what their boyfriend just posted on Facebook and whether dad will buy that shiny new car.

Chris
09-24-2013, 10:32 AM
From Politico



Why? Because you lads are governed by idiots. So you'll throw the lower middle class under a bus so that you can screw up everyone's health care model so that MAYBE someday you can get single payer, eh American Dems?

It's a lie. It's deceitful. It's lazy. It's immoral. You should have supported Kucinich and got out and marched instead of getting all teary-eyed with the Obama fandom.



Hey, you're a Limey and can't say things like that, even if it is true. Of course we're governed by idiots and it's been a lie ever since Plato made it noble.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 10:42 AM
What matters is IF it works at all.

If it does, probably the best result we can expect is that it will really jack up insurance rates like MassCare did. They did get most people there covered by some type of insurance.

None of them, however, are addressing why costs are so damn high in the U.S.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 10:55 AM
Your argument might make sense to you but the question was why would a healthy young person want to sign up? You haven't addressed that.

How about "Personal Responsibility" for starters ..........

I'm guessing when you say young, you're saying someone in their mid 20's upwards.

As far as health issues in your twenties, not all health issues are medical related and are not age dependent.

But there are numerous piratical reasons why an "Adult" in their 20's should not wait until they are freaking 40 Years old to see a Doctor .........

WTF type of Bull-Shit have you people been taught about Health and preventive care?

Do any of you have TEETH ?
Do any of you have EYES ?
Do any of you have SEX ?
Do any of you have Teenagers or Young Adults at home ?
Do any of you play Sports or have an active life style ?

... have any of you ever gotten sick between the ages of 25 and 40?

Exactly when did some of you beam down from your Planet?

BTW --- > http://saloca.hubpages.com/hub/Health-Risks-in-your-20s

I can't believe someone is askig me to make an argument on the need for Health Care and Preventative Health Care in the year 2013?

What have you people been taught?

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 10:59 AM
Well, we're going to find out, aren't we?

Now if we only could find out what the complete implications of the ACA are except that Obama has unilaterally blocked implementing some of the most damaging parts and handed out exceptions to his cronies to dilute the opposition as well.

However, I suspect there's enough of it left to make a real mess.

We shall see.

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 11:00 AM
How about "Personal Responsibility" for starters ..........

I'm guessing when you say young, you're saying someone in their mid 20's upwards.

As far as health issues in your twenties, not all health issues are medical related and are not age dependent.

But there are numerous piratical reasons why an "Adult" in their 20's should not wait until they are freaking 40 Years old to see a Doctor .........

WTF type of Bull-Shit have you people been taught about Health and preventive care?

Do any of you have TEETH ?
Do any of you have EYES ?
Do any of you have SEX ?
Do any of you have Teenagers or Young Adults at home ?
Do any of you play Sports or have an active life style ?

... have any of you ever gotten sick between the ages of 25 and 40?

Exactly when did some of you beam down from your Planet?

BTW --- > http://saloca.hubpages.com/hub/Health-Risks-in-your-20s

I can't believe someone is askig me to make an argument on the need for Health Care and Preventative Health Care in the year 2013?

What have you people been taught?

Why should wellness be paid by regular insurance? You don't have national health. You don't have single payer. You have insurance-insurance mandated as a tax where other people will pay for young people to walk in, be seen and told "you're fit".

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 11:01 AM
:grin:

Another home run for the Limey!

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:08 AM
Why should wellness be paid by regular insurance? You don't have national health. You don't have single payer. You have insurance-insurance mandated as a tax where other people will pay for young people to walk in, be seen and told "you're fit".

Why ... because each and every time someone, anyone, at any age, goes to the EMERGENCY ROOM ................. SOMEONE PAYS ... EVERY TIME ... SOMEONE PAYS.

We live in a Country were most Americans actually care about their citizens ... because someday ... you never know ... our Country may ask that person or someone they really really really care about to go DIE in some Freaking Desert for some RICH Political ASSHOLE War Jollies.

So why not give a shit ... because the last I checked ... the Body Bags are filled with our Young Treasurer?

So the least we can do is give a shit about the people they are fighting for and their family, friends and even the people they never met in their lives. You know Americans?

peoshi
09-24-2013, 11:10 AM
I'm wondering what Jillian thinks cancer rates in the UK have to do with Obamacare?

Chris
09-24-2013, 11:11 AM
How about "Personal Responsibility" for starters ..........

I'm guessing when you say young, you're saying someone in their mid 20's upwards.

As far as health issues in your twenties, not all health issues are medical related and are not age dependent.

But there are numerous piratical reasons why an "Adult" in their 20's should not wait until they are freaking 40 Years old to see a Doctor .........

WTF type of Bull-Shit have you people been taught about Health and preventive care?

Do any of you have TEETH ?
Do any of you have EYES ?
Do any of you have SEX ?
Do any of you have Teenagers or Young Adults at home ?
Do any of you play Sports or have an active life style ?

... have any of you ever gotten sick between the ages of 25 and 40?

Exactly when did some of you beam down from your Planet?

BTW --- > http://saloca.hubpages.com/hub/Health-Risks-in-your-20s

I can't believe someone is askig me to make an argument on the need for Health Care and Preventative Health Care in the year 2013?

What have you people been taught?



Yea, good luck selling personal responsibility to the youth of any age. Hell, you can't even sell that to liberal progressives like you, who want to depend on government and thereby avoid personal responsibility. To think, it's liberal progressive who have to sell this to young rebels without a cause. What will you do, put up booths at OWS demonstrations?

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:11 AM
:grin:

Another home run for the Limey!

.. yea ... NO need for any thank you's ... because we're there when you need us ... always has been.

http://greatpowerpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/us-military3.jpg

Paperback Writer
09-24-2013, 11:12 AM
Why ... because each and every time someone, anyone, at any age, goes to the EMERGENCY ROOM ................. SOMEONE PAYS ... EVERY TIME ... SOMEONE PAYS.

No one goes to ERs for wellness. We were speaking of young people and preventative care.

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:14 AM
Yea, good luck selling personal responsibility to the youth of any age. Hell, you can't even sell that to liberal progressives like you, who want to depend on government and thereby avoid personal responsibility. To think, it's liberal progressive who have to sell this to young rebels without a cause. What will you do, put up booths at OWS demonstrations?

Chris I don't know you personally ...

Do you have kids who are young adult age ... relatives or whatever .... ?

Do you say to these young people you care about ... Fuck-it ... they're young ... they'll be OK

Or is it just the people you don't give a shit about?

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:17 AM
No one goes to ERs for wellness. We were speaking of young people and preventative care.

Question: do you wait until the Oil runs out of your vehicle before you change it?

What part of preventive care don't you understand ...?

Just because young people YOU know aren't responsible does that mean all aren't?

Chris
09-24-2013, 11:21 AM
Chris I don't know you personally ...

Do you have kids who are young adult age ... relatives or whatever .... ?

Do you say to these young people you care about ... Fuck-it ... they're young ... they'll be OK

Or is it just the people you don't give a shit about?

no yes no no

Cigar
09-24-2013, 11:29 AM
Can someone help me out here ... ?

Exactly what year did Conservative Republicans STOP Preaching Personal Responsibility and Liberal Democrats START ?

Chris
09-24-2013, 11:30 AM
Can someone help me out here ... ?

Exactly what year did Conservative Republicans STOP Preaching Personal Responsibility and Liberal Democrats START ?



No.

Mainecoons
09-24-2013, 05:48 PM
Can someone help me out here ... ?

Exactly what year did Conservative Republicans STOP Preaching Personal Responsibility and Liberal Democrats START ?

No, we really can't help you. Lord knows, we've tried. You're hopeless, sorry. :grin:

The Xl
09-24-2013, 05:50 PM
This bill is shit from both a liberal and libertarian perspective. How anyone could ever support it is beyond me.

Alyosha
09-24-2013, 05:57 PM
Paul Krugman never met a government program he didn't like.