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midcan5
09-27-2013, 07:52 AM
For Discussion - A Thought Experiment


Posting on a new site is fascinating, you get to sense sameness and difference. A few may be familiar with my nutshells, in them I tried to isolate the characteristics of a particular ideology. This time you decide, but remember this is a thought experiment and the premise is not debatable. (Please stay away from slogan impossibility answers.)


One day a conservative (or American libertarian) wakes up from a coma in a world unlike her past world. In this world equality trumps personal freedom. The political structure could be defined as a constitutional cooperative (in which decisions are made democratically and an elected court settled issues that any average citizen or minority group could disagree on.


The overall philosophical worldview means no one is super rich and no one poor. The society varies but it excludes extremes. All receive a stipend, so all live securely. All fundamental services are free, these include transportation, education, and healthcare. Work is private, state, and federal, but all work is supportive of the society and not just the person or corporation, above average profits are returned to the society. The business person, entrepreneur, artist, does enjoy prestige and a higher standard of living. Equality is a goal and not a standard.


The conservatives finds this odd and uncharacteristic, but soon grows accustom to the society, she receives a stipend, finishes her education, and finds promising work in a private industry.


One day the conservative discovers there is another nation in which personal freedom trumps equality. In this place extremes of all kinds exist and government and law exist to defend or to protect power. This nation is basically considered a libertarian capitalistic republic. In this society no stipend system exists and no service is free. While the nations are isolated from each other, each feels, and their media supports their political structure as the best political structure. Movement between nations is possible as both at a base level respect personal freedom.


What does the conservative do and why? Does she stay or leave for a nation that allows more economic freedoms, more profit, and is similar to her core ideological position prior to her coma? Or does she change and stay, why?

Chris
09-27-2013, 08:30 AM
Your thought experiment world is one of equality before man, equality of outcomes coerced by government. But people are different. In order to achieve those equal results you must treat people unequally. The self-contradiction will result in such a world's collapse.

Your thought experiment conservative/libertarian is also a cardboard caricature straw man. Do you make these up just to knock them down?

Captain Obvious
09-27-2013, 10:45 AM
Another false assumption, that "liberal" politicians (ie: democrats) are for the working guy and truly want social equality.

Fact is, democrats are basically rich white guys too who don't want to change anything - why shit on your dinner plate?

If you truly believe otherwise, I hope you wake up from your coma sometime soon.

midcan5
09-27-2013, 03:50 PM
The answers so far prove my point that conservatives lack freewill, see other thread. The situation in the thought experiment is a given, it does not involve anything outside itself. See how hard it is to forget ourselves? Stay within those boundaries, now see if you can answer, does she stay or does she go? And why?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16970-Do-Conservatives-lack-Freewill


"Where freedom is real, equality is the passion of the masses. Where equality is real, freedom is the passion of a small minority." Eric Hoffer

Chris
09-27-2013, 04:00 PM
The answers so far prove my point that conservatives lack freewill, see other thread. The situation in the thought experiment is a given, it does not involve anything outside itself. See how hard it is to forget ourselves? Stay within those boundaries, now see if you can answer, does she stay or does she go? And why?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16970-Do-Conservatives-lack-Freewill


"Where freedom is real, equality is the passion of the masses. Where equality is real, freedom is the passion of a small minority." Eric Hoffer



You're back to talking to yourself. No one's going to stay within the boundaries of your imagination. You've gotten an answer, too bad you can't address it with more that it doesn't fit what you want to hear.

Captain Obvious
09-28-2013, 10:14 AM
You're back to talking to yourself. No one's going to stay within the boundaries of your imagination. You've gotten an answer, too bad you can't address it with more that it doesn't fit what you want to hear.

Kinda what one would expect from a one-trick pony.

Chris
09-28-2013, 10:18 AM
Kinda what one would expect from a one-trick pony.

He's a blogger: http://midcan5.blogspot.com/. That's OK, not cirticizing that, just that it's a different style than expected on a forum.

Captain Obvious
09-28-2013, 10:21 AM
He's a blogger: http://midcan5.blogspot.com/. That's OK, not cirticizing that, just that it's a different style than expected on a forum.

Makes sense then. Maybe his stuff would do better in our blog section than on the discussion forum.

We do have a blog section, right?

Peter1469
09-28-2013, 10:22 AM
I agree. The "Thought Experiment" is useless unless one accepts the assumptions built into it.

Chris
09-28-2013, 10:26 AM
Makes sense then. Maybe his stuff would do better in our blog section than on the discussion forum.

We do have a blog section, right?


There are 4 listed at the bottom of the main page: http://thepoliticalforums.com/forum.php. One's mine!!! And not the Chasing Zebras, Girl on Fire, or The Monkey Queen.

midcan5
09-28-2013, 11:38 AM
"I think, at a child's birth, if a mother could ask a fairy godmother to endow it with the most useful gift, that gift should be curiosity." Eleanor Roosevelt

The function of any thought is to consider alternative thought. This TE is not too much of a reach, consider only an American conservative living in Finland as an example. That people don't want to answer means they cannot accept a challenge to their rigid ideological framework, in corporate talk it is thinking outside the box. And so what if I were a blogger a fogger a fooler a candlestick maker, how would that change the challenge? I started a blog to see how they work and to keep a few pieces I write available. A few sites I was on long ago have disappeared. I was also the liberal foil on a conservative blog, with too little traffic it too closed. It's also fun to see if your ideas hold up over time. How you change and how you see the world anew. Sorry the piece confounds you, that though is its goal.

"Which are the arguments and how many are there? I must have an inbred urge toward symmetry. In canvassing for the principal ways of criticizing, assaulting, and ridiculing the three successive "progressive" thrusts of Marshall's story, I have come up with another triad: that is, with three principal reactive-reactionary theses, which I call the perversity thesis or thesis of the perverse effect, the futility thesis, and the jeopardy thesis. According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy. The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent." Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment." Albert Hirschman 'The Rhetoric of Reaction'

Chris
09-28-2013, 11:40 AM
"I think, at a child's birth, if a mother could ask a fairy godmother to endow it with the most useful gift, that gift should be curiosity." Eleanor Roosevelt

The function of any thought is to consider alternative thought. This TE is not too much of a reach, consider only an American conservative living in Finland as an example. That people don't want to answer means they cannot accept a challenge to their rigid ideological framework, in corporate talk it is thinking outside the box. And so what if I were a blogger a fogger a fooler a candlestick maker, how would that change the challenge? I started a blog to see how they work and to keep a few pieces I write available. A few sites I was on long ago have disappeared. I was also the liberal foil on a conservative blog, with too little traffic it too closed. It's also fun to see if your ideas hold up over time. How you change and how you see the world anew. Sorry the piece confounds you, that though is its goal.

"Which are the arguments and how many are there? I must have an inbred urge toward symmetry. In canvassing for the principal ways of criticizing, assaulting, and ridiculing the three successive "progressive" thrusts of Marshall's story, I have come up with another triad: that is, with three principal reactive-reactionary theses, which I call the perversity thesis or thesis of the perverse effect, the futility thesis, and the jeopardy thesis. According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy. The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent." Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment." Albert Hirschman 'The Rhetoric of Reaction'




The function of any thought is to consider alternative thought.

Then why to you reject out of hand any other alternative opinions and ideas?


"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~Eleanor Roosevelt

Codename Section
09-28-2013, 11:55 AM
The same people who have "Question Authority" bumperstickers are the same people who get mad and call you a racist if you question Obama's policies.

Dr. Who
09-28-2013, 12:20 PM
The same people who have "Question Authority" bumperstickers are the same people who get mad and call you a racist if you question Obama's policies.Questioning policies doesn't make anyone a racist. Now if someone says they think his policies stink because he is black, that is racism. I see it as the same dynamic as being accused of anti-Semitism if critical of Israeli foreign or domestic policy.

Chris
09-28-2013, 12:39 PM
Questioning policies doesn't make anyone a racist. Now if someone says they think his policies stink because he is black, that is racism. I see it as the same dynamic as being accused of anti-Semitism if critical of Israeli foreign or domestic policy.



But people don't generally say that, they criticize Obama and partisans rephrase it as hating Obama because he's black and then call you a racist. In such cases would the racist be the one who argues the racist straw man?

Peter1469
09-28-2013, 12:59 PM
"I think, at a child's birth, if a mother could ask a fairy godmother to endow it with the most useful gift, that gift should be curiosity." Eleanor Roosevelt

The function of any thought is to consider alternative thought. This TE is not too much of a reach, consider only an American conservative living in Finland as an example. That people don't want to answer means they cannot accept a challenge to their rigid ideological framework, in corporate talk it is thinking outside the box. And so what if I were a blogger a fogger a fooler a candlestick maker, how would that change the challenge? I started a blog to see how they work and to keep a few pieces I write available. A few sites I was on long ago have disappeared. I was also the liberal foil on a conservative blog, with too little traffic it too closed. It's also fun to see if your ideas hold up over time. How you change and how you see the world anew. Sorry the piece confounds you, that though is its goal.

"Which are the arguments and how many are there? I must have an inbred urge toward symmetry. In canvassing for the principal ways of criticizing, assaulting, and ridiculing the three successive "progressive" thrusts of Marshall's story, I have come up with another triad: that is, with three principal reactive-reactionary theses, which I call the perversity thesis or thesis of the perverse effect, the futility thesis, and the jeopardy thesis. According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy. The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent." Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment." Albert Hirschman 'The Rhetoric of Reaction'

It would help if you provided your definition of what an "American conservative" is.

Dr. Who
09-28-2013, 04:35 PM
But people don't generally say that, they criticize Obama and partisans rephrase it as hating Obama because he's black and then call you a racist. In such cases would the racist be the one who argues the racist straw man?I'd just call them either mistaken in their impression or disingenuous and using emotional tactics to try to dismiss someone's argument.

Chris
09-28-2013, 04:44 PM
I'd just call them either mistaken in their impression or disingenuous and using emotional tactics to try to dismiss someone's argument.



And then you would get in trouble! ;-)

midcan5
09-29-2013, 07:17 AM
This is going off track, into a lot of talking points, spin, and empty assumptions. No one yet has tackled the question of what our conservative does.

Alyosha
09-29-2013, 07:28 AM
For Discussion - A Thought Experiment


One day a conservative (or American libertarian) wakes up from a coma in a world unlike her past world. In this world equality trumps personal freedom.

Finally, a progressive admits that when they say "equality" they mean you have lost personal and individual freedom.

I think this is very honest to admit that. I have always known that this is what progressives truly want, a tyranny of their majority and a loss of individuality and individual rights and freedoms.

This is the message libertarians need to take to independents, what you guys really want to see happen.

Peter1469
09-29-2013, 09:47 AM
This is going off track, into a lot of talking points, spin, and empty assumptions. No one yet has tackled the question of what our conservative does.

What do you think conservative means in modern America?

Chris
09-29-2013, 09:49 AM
This is going off track, into a lot of talking points, spin, and empty assumptions. No one yet has tackled the question of what our conservative does.

You're not used to engaging in discussion on a forum are you. Blogs are a different animal than forums.

If you have criticism of any particular response to your OP then by all means point to it directly and and explain yourself.

Codename Section
09-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Finally, a progressive admits that when they say "equality" they mean you have lost personal and individual freedom.

I think this is very honest to admit that. I have always known that this is what progressives truly want, a tyranny of their majority and a loss of individuality and individual rights and freedoms.

This is the message libertarians need to take to independents, what you guys really want to see happen.

I don't believe equality can trump personal freedom or it's not "equality". Yes, if this is how they think that is pretty frickin' scary.

Chris
09-29-2013, 10:15 AM
I don't believe equality can trump personal freedom or it's not "equality". Yes, if this is how they think that is pretty frickin' scary.

I think we need here distinguish between the statist/progressive view of equality as different people being made equal by the rule of men and the libertarian/conservative view of different people being treated equally by the rule of law. The former view demotes freedom, the latter promotes it.

midcan5
10-01-2013, 12:25 PM
Amazing how powerfully ideology controls minds, no one was able to get outside the frame in which they exist and consider this question, so I will answer. The woman stays. Why does she stay, she stays because the society in which she woke up in meets the basic criteria for a good life. One has to assume given the situation why would she venture into a world in which uncertainty exists. If anyone feels differently you're on.

One has to realize too in the real world slogans like statist / progressive do nothing, words do not answer the fundamental question of how we are to live. Slogans often control minds as the inability of anyone to answer this simple question demonstrated.

Chris
10-01-2013, 12:46 PM
Amazing how powerfully ideology controls minds, no one was able to get outside the frame in which they exist and consider this question, so I will answer. The woman stays. Why does she stay, she stays because the society in which she woke up in meets the basic criteria for a good life. One has to assume given the situation why would she venture into a world in which uncertainty exists. If anyone feels differently you're on.

One has to realize too in the real world slogans like statist / progressive do nothing, words do not answer the fundamental question of how we are to live. Slogans often control minds as the inability of anyone to answer this simple question demonstrated.


If anyone feels differently you're on.

BS, you reject anything that escapes the powerful ideology that controls your mind, you are not able to get outside the frame in which you exist and consider this question, your answer thus fails.



the basic criteria for a good life

Who defines this?

midcan5
10-01-2013, 06:34 PM
"the basic criteria for a good life"

Who defines this?

Each person, as I did in this thought exercise, if you disagree you need to explain why she would leave. Ideology is only real if you allow it to control you, our conservative is not controlled by ideology. Thus she stays.

Chris
10-01-2013, 06:45 PM
Each person, as I did in this thought exercise, if you disagree you need to explain why she would leave. Ideology is only real if you allow it to control you, our conservative is not controlled by ideology. Thus she stays.

Each person? That leads to moral relativism.

Axiomatic
10-01-2013, 06:58 PM
Are you asking us "if coercive efforts to achieve equality were successful and not damaging to the people of a society, would you prefer it over the actual world?"?

Codename Section
10-01-2013, 07:04 PM
Amazing how powerfully ideology controls minds, no one was able to get outside the frame in which they exist and consider this question, so I will answer. The woman stays. Why does she stay, she stays because the society in which she woke up in meets the basic criteria for a good life. One has to assume given the situation why would she venture into a world in which uncertainty exists. If anyone feels differently you're on.

One has to realize too in the real world slogans like statist / progressive do nothing, words do not answer the fundamental question of how we are to live. Slogans often control minds as the inability of anyone to answer this simple question demonstrated.

It's actually not a slogan. A slogan would be "Hope and Change". It's a way of dividing and labeling people like you did with the "conservative" thingy--except you got it all wrong.

You believe in government, ie "a state". I don't, ie "anti-state".

Axiomatic
10-01-2013, 07:18 PM
Amazing how powerfully ideology controls minds, no one was able to get outside the frame in which they exist and consider this question, so I will answer. The woman stays. Why does she stay, she stays because the society in which she woke up in meets the basic criteria for a good life. One has to assume given the situation why would she venture into a world in which uncertainty exists. If anyone feels differently you're on.

One has to realize too in the real world slogans like statist / progressive do nothing, words do not answer the fundamental question of how we are to live. Slogans often control minds as the inability of anyone to answer this simple question demonstrated.

No. You didn't give enough information to draw that conclusion. The information necessary is not in this post I'm responding to, either. It can't be.

If we're just talking about your thought experiment, you would need to first tell us what the a criteria for a good life would be is for her. But you didn't give us that information. If you tell us that, then we could look and see if the world you described fits that criteria.

If we're talking about a real person, the answer is unknowable in principle!

I think, now, that I understood what you were asking, and I'm not sure how I would answer it. It might be the case that I would have to be in that situation in order to know.

Are you beginning to see what the huge problem is with the assumptions you've made? You are telling us what a good life means to us.

Chris
10-01-2013, 07:27 PM
It's actually not a slogan. A slogan would be "Hope and Change". It's a way of dividing and labeling people like you did with the "conservative" thingy--except you got it all wrong.

You believe in government, ie "a state". I don't, ie "anti-state".



“The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians.”
― George Orwell, The Lost Orwell: Being a Supplement to The Complete Works of George Orwell

Peter1469
10-01-2013, 08:56 PM
The thought experiment seems to assume unlimited resources.....