The End Of Christian America.

[Philly Rabbit]

* The U.S. illegitimacy rate has rocketed from 5 percent of all births to 41 percent.


* Among African Americans the share of births out of wedlock is 71 percent, up from 23 percent in 1960.


* The percentage of households that were married - couple families with children under eighteen plummeted by 2006 to just 21.6 percent.


* Since Roe vs. Wade fifty million abortions have been performed.


* Between 1960 and 1990, the teenage suicide rate tripled. Though the numbers then fell, as of 2006 suicide was the third leading cause of death of young adults and adolescents aged 15 to 24, just behind homicides.


* Cheating in sports, scholastics, business, and marriage is pandemic.


* Between 1960 and 1992, violent crime - murder, rape, assault, soured 550 percent. the subsequent decline is due to the baby boomers passing out of the high crime ages (sixteen to thirty six.) the birth dearth, and a 700 percent increase in the prison population, which today stands at 2.3 million, with 5 million more on probation and parole.

* Individualistic hedonism, the Playboy philosophy, and MTV morality have and are destroying a nation founded on religion and the lessons it taught being it's morality.

* A nation founded on religion and it's morality which throws both away is a nation that is in the process of self destruction.

[Green Arrow]

As someone who is emphatically not Christian, I fail to see why this should bother me.

[Mister D]

As someone who is emphatically not Christian, I fail to see why this should bother me.

The illegitimacy rate, for example, is a disaster. It should concern you because there is a strong correlation between it and anti-social behaviors, drug abuse, and other social ills.

[Green Arrow]

The illegitimacy rate, for example, is a disaster. It should concern you because there is a strong correlation between it and anti-social behaviors, drug abuse, and other social ills.

All stuff I can cure without Christianity.

[Mister D]

All stuff I can cure without Christianity.

You asked why you should care. I told you. And good luck.

[Green Arrow]

You asked why you should care. I told you. And good luck.

Yeah, but I meant about the decline of Christianity specifically. Meaning, what's the harm that is specifically caused by the decline of Christianity and cannot be fixed by any other system. If there's nothing, then what's the big whoop?

[bladimz]

* The U.S. illegitimacy rate has rocketed from 5 percent of all births to 41 percent.


* Among African Americans the share of births out of wedlock is 71 percent, up from 23 percent in 1960.


* The percentage of households that were married - couple families with children under eighteen plummeted by 2006 to just 21.6 percent.


* Since Roe vs. Wade fifty million abortions have been performed.


* Between 1960 and 1990, the teenage suicide rate tripled. Though the numbers then fell, as of 2006 suicide was the third leading cause of death of young adults and adolescents aged 15 to 24, just behind homicides.


* Cheating in sports, scholastics, business, and marriage is pandemic.


* Between 1960 and 1992, violent crime - murder, rape, assault, soured 550 percent. the subsequent decline is due to the baby boomers passing out of the high crime ages (sixteen to thirty six.) the birth dearth, and a 700 percent increase in the prison population, which today stands at 2.3 million, with 5 million more on probation and parole.

* Individualistic hedonism, the Playboy philosophy, and MTV morality have and are destroying a nation founded on religion and the lessons it taught being it's morality.

* A nation founded on religion and it's morality which throws both away is a nation that is in the process of self destruction.Why do you assume that this country was founded on religion (Christian America?). Where in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is Christ mention. Where does any of them include any list of religious principles?

I don't know if you wrote this or if this is part of a published OpEd, but whatever it is, attributing any decline of morality in this country a tanking of "Christian America" is only an opinion... I hope you're not presenting this as fact.

[Mister D]

Yeah, but I meant about the decline of Christianity specifically. Meaning, what's the harm that is specifically caused by the decline of Christianity and cannot be fixed by any other system. If there's nothing, then what's the big whoop?

The harm done is described above but such insouciance is to be expected, I suppose. That's how it all happened in the first place.

[Philly Rabbit]

Why do you assume that this country was founded on religion (Christian America?). Where in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is Christ mention. Where does any of them include any list of religious principles?

I don't know if you wrote this or if this is part of a published OpEd, but whatever it is, attributing any decline of morality in this country a tanking of "Christian America" is only an opinion... I hope you're not presenting this as fact.


The Christian God WAS seen everywhere in America. They were seen on historical buildings, historical sites, historical documents, town squares, state flags, cemeteries, even on America's currency. Despite all the efforts of the secularists to remove symbols of America's Christian heritage, they were so numerous and located in just about every community, America' as a Christian nation remains only in it's enormous symbolic historical context everywhere.

[Alyosha]

Yeah, but I meant about the decline of Christianity specifically. Meaning, what's the harm that is specifically caused by the decline of Christianity and cannot be fixed by any other system. If there's nothing, then what's the big whoop?

They are deriving a correlation between the loss of religion in the public eye with the shift in cultural values.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Good. We can only hope the rest of this nation's Religions will soon be out the door as well.

That would be total utopia, IMHO.

[bladimz]

The Christian God WAS seen everywhere in America. They were seen on historical buildings, historical sites, historical documents, town squares, state flags, cemeteries, even on America's currency. Despite all the efforts of the secularists to remove symbols of America's Christian heritage, they were so numerous and located in just about every community, America' as a Christian nation remains only in it's enormous symbolic historical context everywhere.Yeah, but that's not the same as the idea that our nation was built on Christian beliefs. Maybe religion, Christianity was an integral part of the lives of most people of that time, but that has nothing to do with why and for what reasons the country was created.

Lots of people are Christians (or at least they say they are), but does the fact that they drive cars mean that cars are built with the driver's faith in mind?

[Chris]

We're a largely Christian society with a secular government.

There was a liberal Christian element to Enlightenment arguments against the notion of Divine Right of Kings. But the idea we're all created equal before the law, citizens and kings, can be traced back to Judaism. And the natural rights that were derived from natural law initially centered on liberty of conscience. But this notion too traces back to earliest history.

So we might say Christianity embraced some of the same moral ideas this nation was founded on.

One problem with the OP though, and that's this, society deteriorated while we were and still are largely Christian. It's like politics, we can rage about Bush or Obama and disapprove Congress and whine how lousy our government is, but when it comes down to it, we did this to ourselves. We have met the enemy, and he is us, says Pogo.

[Philly Rabbit]

Good. We can only hope the rest of this nation's Religions will soon be out the door as well.

That would be total utopia, IMHO.

When people throw God away, they immediately seek something else to believe in because that's part of human nature. Such as hedonism which many people now subscribe to in America as America endures it's final days.

America used to be a nation of common people with a common purpose and a distinct common culture lying on it's moral foundation with lessons taught to the citizenry by it's own religious heritage. Now it is a conglomeration of multiculturalism featuring multi cultural provinces at odds with each other and competing against each other for governmental services as it's nation continues to slide down the abyss of destruction from within.

Faith is human nature and what faith is chosen to replace another faith and it's lessons will never be replaced by a vacuum so as a theory of personal freedom can be established. The evidence of America's decline is factual and the collapse of it's own social moral infrastructure is it's own legacy.

[GrassrootsConservative]

When people throw God away, they immediately seek something else to believe in because that's part of human nature. Such as hedonism which many people now subscribe to in America as America endures it's final days.

America used to be a nation of common people with a common purpose and a distinct common culture lying on it's moral foundation with lessons taught to the citizenry by it's own religious heritage. Now it is a conglomeration of multiculturalism featuring multi cultural provinces at odds with each other and competing against each other for governmental services as it's nation continues to slide down the abyss of destruction from within.

Faith is human nature and what faith is chosen to replace another faith and it's lessons will never be replaced by a vacuum so as a theory of personal freedom can be established. The evidence of America's decline is factual and the collapse of it's infrastructure is it's own legacy.

Religion is bad for the human race. It causes war, halts technological advancements as well as those in medicine, and is something a lot like government in that it creates a group of people who do not produce anything yet take in a great deal of money, freedom and power from those who do.

[Philly Rabbit]

We're a largely Christian society with a secular government.

There was a liberal Christian element to Enlightenment arguments against the notion of Divine Right of Kings. But the idea we're all created equal before the law, citizens and kings, can be traced back to Judaism. And the natural rights that were derived from natural law initially centered on liberty of conscience. But this notion too traces back to earliest history.

So we might say Christianity embraced some of the same moral ideas this nation was founded on.

One problem with the OP though, and that's this, society deteriorated while we were and still are largely Christian. It's like politics, we can rage about Bush or Obama and disapprove Congress and whine how lousy our government is, but when it comes down to it, we did this to ourselves. We have met the enemy, and he is us, says Pogo.

I disagree. we have not been a Christian society for many, many years and now it's time to pay the fiddler.

When Western Christianity was threatened by an outside entity that threatened to destroy the civilization such as in Europe, the Christian nations of that continent forgot their differences and stopped fighting each other and banned together under the Christian banner to fight and defeat that threatening evil. The Pope's armies in Europe saved Western Civilization on many occasions. The crescent and the star over Europe replacing the cross would have plunged the entire world into a terrible dark age that would have lasted for generations. There would have never been an enlightenment, never a renaissance, never any classic liberal thought, never any ideas of self determination, slavery would have gone on indefinitely and lastly and more importantly, no United States of America. Just before America entered world war two, the Christian west united again under the Christian banner and defeated Hitler.

Our civilization is now void of the one thing that always united us in times of peril. And now we are totally divided and Balkanized.

[Chris]

I disagree. we have not been a Christian society for many, many years and now it's time to pay the fiddler.

When Western Christianity was threatened by an outside entity that threatened to destroy the civilization such as in Europe, the Christian nations of that continent forgot their differences and stopped fighting each other and banned together under the Christian banner to fight and defeat that threatening evil. The Pope's armies in Europe saved Western Civilization on many occasions. The crescent and the star over Europe replacing the cross would have plunged the entire world into a terrible dark age that would have lasted for generations. There would have never been an enlightenment, never a renaissance, never any classic liberal thought, never any ideas of self determination, slavery would have gone on indefinitely and lastly and more importantly, no United States of America. Just before America entered world war two, the Christian west united again under the Christian banner and defeated Hitler.

Our civilization is now void of the one thing that always united us in times of peril. And now we are totally divided and Balkanized.


Still this deterioration happened to a largely Christian nation. So while I don't mean to blame Christians, and we could scapegoat some barbarians, it has been Christians who changed.


There may never have been an Enlightenment were is not for Christianity, Rome, Greece, Judaism, even Persians and Muslims who preserved the ancients so the West could rediscover them. Christianity itself is dependent on what came before it.

[jillian]

* The U.S. illegitimacy rate has rocketed from 5 percent of all births to 41 percent.


* Among African Americans the share of births out of wedlock is 71 percent, up from 23 percent in 1960.


* The percentage of households that were married - couple families with children under eighteen plummeted by 2006 to just 21.6 percent.


* Since Roe vs. Wade fifty million abortions have been performed.


* Between 1960 and 1990, the teenage suicide rate tripled. Though the numbers then fell, as of 2006 suicide was the third leading cause of death of young adults and adolescents aged 15 to 24, just behind homicides.


* Cheating in sports, scholastics, business, and marriage is pandemic.


* Between 1960 and 1992, violent crime - murder, rape, assault, soured 550 percent. the subsequent decline is due to the baby boomers passing out of the high crime ages (sixteen to thirty six.) the birth dearth, and a 700 percent increase in the prison population, which today stands at 2.3 million, with 5 million more on probation and parole.

* Individualistic hedonism, the Playboy philosophy, and MTV morality have and are destroying a nation founded on religion and the lessons it taught being it's morality.

* A nation founded on religion and it's morality which throws both away is a nation that is in the process of self destruction.

the country has never been "christian"

if you like theocracies, go live in one. i'm certain saudi arabia would be pleased to have you

[Mister D]

the country has never been "christian"

if you like theocracies, go live in one. i'm certain saudi arabia would be pleased to have you

Israel too.

[Chris]

the country has never been "christian"

if you like theocracies, go live in one. i'm certain saudi arabia would be pleased to have you



I don't think he intended the extremist view you take. The founders would certainly have accepted his sense of the nation needing a foundation of religion and morality. For instance, Washington, not particularly religious, said "Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." It never would have survived in infancy with your progressive moral relativism. And his plaint, as I understand it, is it's losing its religious and moral foundation.

[Philly Rabbit]

the country has never been "christian"

if you like theocracies, go live in one. i'm certain saudi arabia would be pleased to have you

The symbols of the Christian God were and still are prevalent in almost every community in the country. I said it no longer is a Christian country and I've explained why it isn't with the doom and gloom statistics.

You're one of the individuals who has transformed it into what it now is as it lies on it's deathbed. Denying what it once was and telling me to leave what you helped to create doesn't change this fact.

[jillian]

The symbols of the Christian God were and still are prevalent in almost every community in the country. I said it no longer is a Christian country and I've explained why it isn't with the doom and gloom statistics.

You're one of the individuals who has transformed it into what it now is as it lies on it's deathbed. Denying what it once was and telling me to leave what you helped to create doesn't change this fact.

we have still always had a secular government.

what you pretend was.... never was.

damn non christians for immigating here.

:cuckoo:

[Philly Rabbit]

I don't think he intended the extremist view you take. The founders would certainly have accepted his sense of the nation needing a foundation of religion and morality. For instance, Washington, not particularly religious, said "Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." It never would have survived in infancy with your progressive moral relativism. And his plaint, as I understand it, is it's losing its religious and moral foundation.

The people who removed the moral foundation of America while replacing it with their morally relavent foundation will continue to claim that what they replaced never existed in the first place. Honesty is never in the equation when it comes to them admitting this when the historical evidence is still overwhelming despite their efforts to eradicate as much of it as they could or attempting whether or not the country as being better off without "it."

[Philly Rabbit]

we have still always had a secular government.

what you pretend was.... never was.

damn non christians for immigating here.

:cuckoo:

We had a government representative of the people. So why is it so difficult for you to admit that your efforts eradicated the Christian element in the country while it was you who did exactly that in order to replace such with your value system?

[Mr Happy]

* The U.S. illegitimacy rate has rocketed from 5 percent of all births to 41 percent.


* Among African Americans the share of births out of wedlock is 71 percent, up from 23 percent in 1960.


* The percentage of households that were married - couple families with children under eighteen plummeted by 2006 to just 21.6 percent.


* Since Roe vs. Wade fifty million abortions have been performed.


* Between 1960 and 1990, the teenage suicide rate tripled. Though the numbers then fell, as of 2006 suicide was the third leading cause of death of young adults and adolescents aged 15 to 24, just behind homicides.


* Cheating in sports, scholastics, business, and marriage is pandemic.


* Between 1960 and 1992, violent crime - murder, rape, assault, soured 550 percent. the subsequent decline is due to the baby boomers passing out of the high crime ages (sixteen to thirty six.) the birth dearth, and a 700 percent increase in the prison population, which today stands at 2.3 million, with 5 million more on probation and parole.

* Individualistic hedonism, the Playboy philosophy, and MTV morality have and are destroying a nation founded on religion and the lessons it taught being it's morality.

* A nation founded on religion and it's morality which throws both away is a nation that is in the process of self destruction.

But at least people are free, right?

[Chris]

The people who removed the moral foundation of America while replacing it with their morally relavent foundation will continue to claim that what they replaced never existed in the first place. Honesty is never in the equation when it comes to them admitting this when the historical evidence is still overwhelming despite their efforts to eradicate as much of it as they could or attempting whether or not the country as being better off without "it."


True but I'm of a mind we're all to blame.


Would you agree, only a free people can be religious and moral, only a people free to choose can be religious and moral?

Thaddeus Russell in A Renegade History of the United States chronicles not the leaders but the every day colonists, how under British rule they were immoral, debauched, worse than today; but how once they fought for and won their freedom, they became religious and moral. Today, it seems, as government grows in power and intrusion, the nation loses its moral compass.

[Mr Happy]

The symbols of the Christian God were and still are prevalent in almost every community in the country. I said it no longer is a Christian country and I've explained why it isn't with the doom and gloom statistics.

You're one of the individuals who has transformed it into what it now is as it lies on it's deathbed. Denying what it once was and telling me to leave what you helped to create doesn't change this fact.

It also had slaves, women and non land owners were not allowed to vote, the native population was thrown onto reservations, and it was a dog-eat-dog world in terms of business with monopolies rife. I won't even start of child labour laws. You are looking at your history through rose tinted glasses..

[Chris]

It also had slaves, women and non land owners were not allowed to vote, the native population was thrown onto reservations, and it was a dog-eat-dog world in terms of business with monopolies rife. I won't even start of child labour laws. You are looking at your history through rose tinted glasses..

And you through cracked lenses.

[Mr Happy]

And you through cracked lenses.

Just adding balance...

[Chris]

Just adding balance...

Slavery and that were the way of the world then, monopolies are created by government, child labor became unnecessary under capitalism.

http://i.snag.gy/pkV6Z.jpg

[Dr. Who]

Not everything about Christianity in America was wonderful. Consider that up until John Kennedy was elected president, Catholics were basically barred from the position. Catholics, although also Christian were the targets of discrimination by the ruling WASPs, never mind those who were not Christian at all. Catholicism was associated with immigrants, and they were not initially welcomed with open arms. The KKK consider themselves good Christians too. It's one thing to say that you are Christian and even attend church religiously and it is another thing to actually practice what is preached. It is not multiculturalism that is diminishing Christianity as in religiosity, it is education and wealth. The more people are taught to think for themselves, the less likely they are to adhere to faith based institutions where questioning doctrine is not encouraged. The wealthier they are, the less they feel the need to find reassurance in the church. This is not unique to America, but not remarkably a factor in any wealthy and reasonably well educated country. The religions of the world are generally the most popular with the poor and uneducated.

[Codename Section]

I don't want government and religion mixing. I don't want government and my paycheck mixing, either, but that's another thread. I was raised Methodist and my area was very churchy and I think it worked out well as a community thing. Black, white, gay, straight it really didn't matter, if a water spout, hurricane, or tornado hit everyone helped everyone.

There was this gay couple that were "out" and people might give them some shit behind their back but when their house had a tree fall on it, everyone was over from the church cleaning up and helping them put the house back together.

There are good Christian values left, but it shouldn't have to be present in government. It should come from us and be manifest in our lives.

[Peter1469]

The US was and is a Christian nation with a secular government. It is cultural- the Europeans who migrated to North American did not abandon religion when they made this new nation.

[jillian]

The US was and is a Christian nation with a secular government. It is cultural- the Europeans who migrated to North American did not abandon religion when they made this new nation.

but they also sure as heck didn't want government meddling in their religion... and in exchange for that, they keep their religion out of government.

works for me.

why on earth would i want theocratic laws forced on us?

[jillian]

And you through cracked lenses.


i guess those good christians didn't give blankets with small pox to the indigenous population

[jillian]

I don't want government and religion mixing. I don't want government and my paycheck mixing, either, but that's another thread. I was raised Methodist and my area was very churchy and I think it worked out well as a community thing. Black, white, gay, straight it really didn't matter, if a water spout, hurricane, or tornado hit everyone helped everyone.

There was this gay couple that were "out" and people might give them some shit behind their back but when their house had a tree fall on it, everyone was over from the church cleaning up and helping them put the house back together.

There are good Christian values left, but it shouldn't have to be present in government. It should come from us and be manifest in our lives.


and yet government and your paycheck *did* mix... and it mixes with your healthcare... and with other things.

[Peter1469]

but they also sure as heck didn't want government meddling in their religion... and in exchange for that, they keep their religion out of government.

works for me.

why on earth would i want theocratic laws forced on us?

I agree. My only point is that our Christian heritage is part of our government and history. We are not a theocracy.

[jillian]

I agree. My only point is that our Christian heritage is part of our government and history. We are not a theocracy.

and i have no problem with that.

it's the theocrats i take issue with.

[Chris]

I don't want government and religion mixing. I don't want government and my paycheck mixing, either, but that's another thread. I was raised Methodist and my area was very churchy and I think it worked out well as a community thing. Black, white, gay, straight it really didn't matter, if a water spout, hurricane, or tornado hit everyone helped everyone.

There was this gay couple that were "out" and people might give them some shit behind their back but when their house had a tree fall on it, everyone was over from the church cleaning up and helping them put the house back together.

There are good Christian values left, but it shouldn't have to be present in government. It should come from us and be manifest in our lives.



Buckley, somewhat libertarian, approached this in the right way, that Christians in office can promote virtue by example, just not push it as law.

[Chris]

i guess those good christians didn't give blankets with small pox to the indigenous population


Cracked lenses.

[Codename Section]

and yet government and your paycheck *did* mix... and it mixes with your healthcare... and with other things.

I wish it would not. I wish it would not.

[Mister D]

I agree. My only point is that our Christian heritage is part of our government and history. We are not a theocracy.

And no one wants one. That accusation is just more of the extreme rhetoric this site has become full of.

[Chris]

And no one wants one. That accusation is just more of the extreme rhetoric this site has become full of.

It's intended to bait rather than debate.

[Mister D]

It's intended to bait rather than debate.

She probably believes it. Scary.

[Mister D]

i guess those good christians didn't give blankets with small pox to the indigenous population

Ward Churchill much? You do realize there is very little evidence that ever happened? Aside from a letter dated 1763 in which the possibility is discussed by British officers at the siege of Fort Pitt there isn't much else. That's really about it, actually. You're welcome.

[sky dancer]

And no one wants one. That accusation is just more of the extreme rhetoric this site has become full of.

It's not true that "no one" wants a Christian theocracy. Plenty of people do.

The ones who re-write history to say that we were founded as a "Christian nation".

[Mister D]

It's not true that "no one" wants a Christian theocracy. Plenty of people do.

The ones who re-write history to say that we were founded as a "Christian nation".

no one wants a theocracy and the US has never been in danger of becoming a theocracy even when religion was much more acceptable in public life.

If you insist I'd like you to provide examples. Maybe there a handful of kooks out there but they are extremely rare.

[sky dancer]

no one wants a theocracy and the US has never been in danger of becoming a theocracy eve whe religion was much more acceptable in public life.

That is absolute BS. Check out the Dominionists.

[Mister D]

That is absolute BS. Check out the Dominionists.

Who are these people? names please. cite them.

[sky dancer]

Who are these people? names please. cite them.If you were interested in knowing who they are just google dominionist groups. C. Peter Wagner for one. Seven Mountains theology. Pat Robertson.Rick Perry. Palin. Michelle Bachman. Ralph Reed. Chuck Colson.

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm

[Codename Section]

Who are these people? names please. cite them.

They can't be that important or I would have heard about them.

[roadmaster]

Only one end for us and we shall be victorious.

[Mister D]

First, there is no “school of thought” known as “dominionism.” The term was coined in the 1980s by Diamond and is never used outside liberal blogs and websites. No reputable scholars use the term for it is a meaningless neologism that Diamond concocted for her dissertation.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/08/a-journalism-lesson-for-the-new-yorker

I concur.

[Mister D]

If you were interested in knowing who they are just google dominionist groups.

That's your job.

[Mister D]

They can't be that important or I would have heard about them.

Right. It was claimed to be something other than utterly fringe by some Jewish sociologist with a ideological axe to grind.

[sky dancer]

That's your job.

I have a job already. This is leisure, NOT persuasive essay.

You take yourself and forum posting way tooo seriously. See ya.

[Mister D]

I have a job already. This is leisure, NOT persuasive essay.

I thought so. Dismissed.

[sky dancer]

I thought so. Dismissed.

See ya toots. Do your own research. I thought you wouldn't because you've got your head in the sand.

[Mister D]

See ya toots. Do your own research. I thought you wouldn't because you've got your head in the sand.

You still here? You don't need to say cya twice. It makes you look insecure. :grin:

[sky dancer]

You still here? You don't need to say cya twice. It makes you look insecure. :grin:

I don't give a shit what you think I look like.

You look like a pickle puss in your avatar.

[Mister D]

I don't give a shit what you think I look like.

You are taking this too seriously. :smiley_ROFLMAO:

[sky dancer]

You are taking this too seriously. :smiley_ROFLMAO:

Hey, I've got a smiling kitty avatar and you've got some sour puss. Which one of us takes the forum too seriously?

[Mister D]

Hey, I've got a smiling kitty avatar and you've got some sour puss. Which one of us takes the forum too seriously?

Are you really still here? :laugh:

[sky dancer]

Are you really still here? :laugh:

Yep, I'm still here. I'm just not bothering to discuss dominionism with someone whose mind is a steel trap about it.

[Codename Section]

Yep, I'm still here. I'm just not bothering to discuss dominionism with someone whose mind is a steel trap about it.

How many people do you think actually believe this? I'll bet fewer than believe in aliens.

[Mister D]

Yep, I'm still here. I'm just not bothering to discuss dominionism with someone whose mind is a steel trap about it.

Discussing fringe movements is fine with me. What I object to is your attempt to make it sound as if it's even remotely mainstream or influential.

[sky dancer]

Discussing fringe movements is fine with me. What I object to is your attempt tp make it sound as if it's even remotely mainstream or influential.

That's certainly more movement than claiming NO ONE wants a Christian Theocracy in America.

Traditional Christianity teaches: The Gospel of Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross. The emphasis is placed upon repentance and conversion of individual souls. The Kingdom of God in this age is spiritual and grows through efforts of evangelism based on teaching the Bible. It is “not of this world” (John 18:36), but a spiritual rule in the hearts of men (Luke 17:20-21). Furthermore, the Kingdom of God is only finally realized upon Christ’s second return to Earth, whereby He Himself establishes His literal and physical reign.


The evangelism mandate by Word and SpiritChrist never intended that His gospel should be propagated by fire and sword or His righteousness wrought by the wrath of man. When the high praises of God are in our mouth with them we should have an olive-branch of peace in our hands. Christ’s victories are by the power of His gospel and grace over spiritual enemies, in which all believers are more than conquerors. The word of God is the two-edged sword (Heb. 4:12), the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17).5 [emphasis added]


Matthew Henry, circa 1700
Dominionism teaches:
The Gospel of Salvation is achieved by setting up the “Kingdom of God” as a literal and physical kingdom to be “advanced” on Earth in the present age. Some dominionists liken the New Testament Kingdom to the Old Testament Israel in ways that justify taking up the sword, or other methods of punitive judgment, to war against enemies of their kingdom. Dominionists teach that men can be coerced or compelled to enter the kingdom. They assign to the Church duties and rights that belong Scripturally only to Jesus Christ. This includes the esoteric belief that believers can “incarnate” Christ and function as His body on Earth to establish His kingdom rule. An inordinate emphasis is placed on man’s efforts; the doctrine of the sovereignty of God is diminished.
http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm

[sky dancer]

How many people do you think actually believe this? I'll bet fewer than believe in aliens.

We've had several Dominionists run for POTUS in the last few years. They are growing in influence and they have a ton of money.

What we are witnessing from the ReBiblicans in Congress is not the efforts of honest, mainstream Christians – these are the acts of a Dominionist group, cult-like in nature, who have steeple-jacked (http://crookedcrosses.wordpress.com/glossary-of-terms/)mainstream Christianity for their own personal gain.
http://crookedcrosses.wordpress.com/

[sky dancer]

George Grant, (who endorsed Michele Bachmann for president) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=len7klD8Cwo) a former assistant to D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries in Florida, explaining precisely what they are after,

“Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ-to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.
But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.
It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.
It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.
It is dominion we are after.
World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power ofthe Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.
If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose.
Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations.
True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God’s rule. Fortunately, because of the theocratic orientation of our founding fathers, our nation has virtually all the apparatus extant to implement such a reclamation. Unfortunately, the enemies of the Gospel have hand-in-hand eroded the strength of those godly foundations.”


What happened to render unto Caesar?

[Mister D]

That's certainly more movement than claiming NO ONE wants a Christian Theocracy in America.

Traditional Christianity teaches: The Gospel of Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross. The emphasis is placed upon repentance and conversion of individual souls. The Kingdom of God in this age is spiritual and grows through efforts of evangelism based on teaching the Bible. It is “not of this world” (John 18:36), but a spiritual rule in the hearts of men (Luke 17:20-21). Furthermore, the Kingdom of God is only finally realized upon Christ’s second return to Earth, whereby He Himself establishes His literal and physical reign.


The evangelism mandate by Word and Spirit

Christ never intended that His gospel should be propagated by fire and sword or His righteousness wrought by the wrath of man. When the high praises of God are in our mouth with them we should have an olive-branch of peace in our hands. Christ’s victories are by the power of His gospel and grace over spiritual enemies, in which all believers are more than conquerors. The word of God is the two-edged sword (Heb. 4:12), the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17).5 [emphasis added]


Matthew Henry, circa 1700

Dominionism teaches:
The Gospel of Salvation is achieved by setting up the “Kingdom of God” as a literal and physical kingdom to be “advanced” on Earth in the present age. Some dominionists liken the New Testament Kingdom to the Old Testament Israel in ways that justify taking up the sword, or other methods of punitive judgment, to war against enemies of their kingdom. Dominionists teach that men can be coerced or compelled to enter the kingdom. They assign to the Church duties and rights that belong Scripturally only to Jesus Christ. This includes the esoteric belief that believers can “incarnate” Christ and function as His body on Earth to establish His kingdom rule. An inordinate emphasis is placed on man’s efforts; the doctrine of the sovereignty of God is diminished.
http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm

Like I said: fringe. It's just enough to fire up the imagination of a bigot like you.The Christians are coming! lol

[Mister D]

George Grant, (who endorsed Michele Bachmann for president) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=len7klD8Cwo) a former assistant to D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries in Florida, explaining precisely what they are after,

“Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ-to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.
But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.
It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.
It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.
It is dominion we are after.
World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power ofthe Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.
If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose.
Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations.
True Christian political action seeks to rein the passions of men and curb the pattern of digression under God’s rule. Fortunately, because of the theocratic orientation of our founding fathers, our nation has virtually all the apparatus extant to implement such a reclamation. Unfortunately, the enemies of the Gospel have hand-in-hand eroded the strength of those godly foundations.”


What happened to render unto Caesar?


OK so George Grant....:laugh:

[sky dancer]

Like I said: fringe. It's just enough to fire up the imagination of a bigot like you.The Christians are coming! lol

I don't think this is what Christianity is supposed to be about.

Too bad you can't see that they threaten YOUR version of Christianity. Take them lightly at your own peril. They are usurping Christianity for their own means.

[Mister D]

We've had several Dominionists run for POTUS in the last few years. They are growing in influence and they have a ton of money.

What we are witnessing from the ReBiblicans in Congress is not the efforts of honest, mainstream Christians – these are the acts of a Dominionist group, cult-like in nature, who have steeple-jacked (http://crookedcrosses.wordpress.com/glossary-of-terms/)mainstream Christianity for their own personal gain.
http://crookedcrosses.wordpress.com/


First, there is no “school of thought” known as “dominionism.” The term was coined in the 1980s by Diamond and is never used outside liberal blogs and websites. No reputable scholars use the term for it is a meaningless neologism that Diamond concocted for her dissertation.

Quoted for truth. :wink:

[sky dancer]

Like I said, keep your head in the sand and wait until you can know longer recognize Christianity because only THEIR form will survive.

Frankly, I think you support them.

[Mister D]

I don't think this is what Christianity is supposed to be about.

Too bad you can't see that they threaten YOUR version of Christianity. Take them lightly at your own peril. They are usurping Christianity for their own means.

You obviously don't like Christians. Please forgive us for not giving a flying fuck what you think Christianity is supposed to be about. Thanks. now you grab your kitty and hide. The Christians are coming! :laugh:

[Mister D]

Like I said, keep your head in the sand and wait until you can know longer recognize Christianity because only THEIR form will survive.

Frankly, I think you support them.

Frankly...:smiley_ROFLMAO:

Wow this broad is a real wacko.

[sky dancer]

I don't like Dominionists. They are quite different from most Christians I know, who I do like and get along well with.

Some Christians, like Scott Lively for example, are just bad people. They create strife in the world instead of harmony.

Others, like the people I work with every day, are lovely people.

[Mister D]

I don't like Dominionists. They are quite different from most Christians I know, who I do like and get along well with.

Yes, they are quite different from the vast majority of Christians. That should clue you in to how silly your fears are. I'll be generous and say you were misled by bigots. Feel better? :smiley:

[sky dancer]

Yeah, but I meant about the decline of Christianity specifically. Meaning, what's the harm that is specifically caused by the decline of Christianity and cannot be fixed by any other system. If there's nothing, then what's the big whoop?
There's a decline of balanced Christianity. It used to be if someone said they were a Christian, you knew they were a Protestant or a Catholic, more or less benign to non-christians.

Now it can mean something entirely different and more militant.

[sky dancer]

Religion is bad for the human race. It causes war, halts technological advancements as well as those in medicine, and is something a lot like government in that it creates a group of people who do not produce anything yet take in a great deal of money, freedom and power from those who do.
Religion may be bad or good for the human race. It depends on whether it opens the heart and mind or closes them.

[Dr. Who]

Frankly...:smiley_ROFLMAO:

Wow this broad is a real wacko.

No name calling Mister D

[sky dancer]

They can't be that important or I would have heard about them.

That's funny. You think they don't exist or aren't important because you've never heard of them.

[sky dancer]

I agree. My only point is that our Christian heritage is part of our government and history. We are not a theocracy.

We aren't a Christian theocracy at present. I hope we never become one. Our strength as a nation comes, in part, from our religious freedom. I would hate to see Christianity become the State religion, as Islam has become Taliban-like in many Arabic countries in the Middle East.

Tibet, was a theocracy, and in my opinion, that led to it's fall.

[Green Arrow]

We had a government representative of the people. So why is it so difficult for you to admit that your efforts eradicated the Christian element in the country while it was you who did exactly that in order to replace such with your value system?

But it wasn't Christianity that inspired that type of government, it was pagan Greece and Rome.

[jillian]

I wish it would not. I wish it would not.

if you were one of the retired troops who couldn't go to the doctor because of an inability to afford it, you would.

do you know what the homelessness and suicide rates are for combat vets.

i point this out because that's a small population relative to other populations in the country -- and, frankly, a sympathetic, respected population that we could expect "volunteerism" to work for if it were going to work at all.

and... it's not happening.

so you can wish, with all the good intentions in the world, that society would be a certain way.. but it isn't. keep working on it, but you can't break down what we have when there's zero to replace it.

[bladimz]

If you want to put the finger on one major reason for the decline of America, it's not necessarily that God has been tossed out on His Ass. "Good Christian people" are more often not, just Christian in name.

What we've been experiencing is the decline in our population's sensibilities. There is a loss of appreciation and empathy for one another. People just don't care about each other like they used to (outside of the willingness to come together after being ravaged by Hurricane Agnes, for instance). And logically, as our population's sensibilities decrease, so does our moral standards. It's as simple as that. Making this about religion or the lack thereof is a popular line of thought, but i don't think it's very accurate at all.

I was raised as a good Christian Baptist (not Southern Baptist... they're a different breed). In a good Christian town. By good Christian parents. Over the years, i've pretty much shed most of my training without too much personal suffering. Organized religion, i think, is a scam. I won't go into my reasons. But shedding my Baptist upbringing, many think that is the same as me rejecting God. Using that as the standard, i must be one of the many who have brought this country to it's knees.

Our nation's downward slide can be perceived as the result of the rejection of God, but the fact is a secular one: loss of sensibilities of each other. Basically as a population grows larger and larger, and technology gives us the freedom to rely less on each other for mutual benefit, the less we tend to care about each other.

[Alyosha]

That's funny. You think they don't exist or aren't important because you've never heard of them.

Well, if a reasonable person has no knowledge of something then they aren't that important. Dominion theology--and I do know something about it--is an offshoot of Fundamentalism and like most other extreme Christian faiths has no relevant impact on the mainstream. You cite Bachman...where is she now?

The two people who made it to the top of the heap are raging corporatists who are about as religious or devout as Stalin.

[Mister D]

We aren't a Christian theocracy at present. I hope we never become one. Our strength as a nation comes, in part, from our religious freedom. I would hate to see Christianity become the State religion, as Islam has become Taliban-like in many Arabic countries in the Middle East.

Tibet, was a theocracy, and in my opinion, that led to it's fall.

America is in less danger than ever of becoming a theocracy.

[Mister D]

That's funny. You think they don't exist or aren't important because you've never heard of them.

And you think they're important but you can't explain why.

[Mister D]

There's a decline of balanced Christianity. It used to be if someone said they were a Christian, you knew they were a Protestant or a Catholic, more or less benign to non-christians.

Now it can mean something entirely different and more militant.

I have no idea what "balanced Christianity" refers to. I doubt you do either. Again, at best it's a fringe. Your fears are rather silly and it can mean something "militant" only to you and the progressive bloggers who use terms like dominionism.

[lynn]

People that claim they belong to a certain faith of religion usually don't follow the instructions of how they should conduct their lives towards other people in their actions. If they did the world would be a better place for everyone. I can't stand people that claim they believe in God while at the same time have no problem lying to people, ripping them off, take everything they can get while giving nothing in return.

[Alyosha]

This idea of militant Christianity is about as valid in the US as militant Bieberism--less so. You've got more chance of being killed over the new iPhone than religion.

Progressive media has turned its fledglings into a bunch of cowering babies with this fear mongering of theirs.

Gun violence, for example, has been made out to be an epidemic when the facts are that each of us as a .083% chance of being killed by a gun that is not suicide and a .09% chance when you include suicide.

340 million people, 250 million guns, 13000 gun deaths by violence each year equals less than a percent chance.

700,000 abortions each year (fluctuating) or 21,000,000 since Roe v Wade so that's with 6 murders and 383 deaths. The chances of being killed at an abortion clinic while having an abortion is also less than 1%

Chances of death by highway accident? Much greater.

Why worry about Dominion theologists when you can worry about the asshole in the car next to you doing business deals while driving?

[bladimz]

People that claim they belong to a certain faith of religion usually don't follow the instructions of how they should conduct their lives towards other people in their actions. If they did the world would be a better place for everyone. I can't stand people that claim they believe in God while at the same time have no problem lying to people, ripping them off, take everything they can get while giving nothing in return.It's called compartmentalization. People have learned how to separate their religious beliefs, training and obligations from their daily lives and their actions toward others. Unbelievable, but what you say is true. That smiling, hand-shaking, donation-giving person in the pew next to you is the same one that knowingly sold someone a defective piece of equipment without even blinking an eye. Yet, he's very comfortable telling others that he's a Christian.

[Alyosha]

It's called compartmentalization. People have learned how to separate their religious beliefs, training and obligations from their daily lives and their actions toward others. Unbelievable, but what you say is true. That smiling, hand-shaking, donation-giving person in the pew next to you is the same one that knowingly sold someone a defective piece of equipment without even blinking an eye. Yet, he's very comfortable telling others that he's a Christian.

Just as the smiling, hand shaking, constitution praising former Senator who just knowingly killed a 16 year old American without due process can tell you he's a man for and of the people.

It's not just Christians who do this, everyone does. It's just opportune to smack Christians around because we all want to have as much sex as possible and we see them as a blockade to living our lives like rock stars.

[bladimz]

Chances of death by highway accident? Much greater.

Why worry about Dominion theologists when you can worry about the asshole in the car next to you doing business deals while driving?Accidents are accidents. That's why they're called accidents. A more accurate analogy of gun deaths and car-related deaths would be to confine those deaths-by-car to ones caused by road-rage, or intentionally killing someone using a car. I'd have to say that the stats for that are quite a bit different. What percentage of total car-related deaths are intentional, i wonder.

[Philly Rabbit]

It's not true that "no one" wants a Christian theocracy. Plenty of people do.

The ones who re-write history to say that we were founded as a "Christian nation".

When President Kennedy was assassinated and his casket rolled down Pennsylvania Avenue the military band played Onward Christian Soldiers and a variety of other Christian hymns. While his casket was being carried to his final resting place, the band played Nearer My God To Thee. During world war two President Roosevelt offered prayers to the nation for guidance right before every major offensive by allied forces. The nation's public schools featured daily prayers from the pages of the Holy Bible and contained Bibles in their classrooms as classes were being conducted prior to 1962.

The very idea that America was not and never a Christian nation is Ludacris and laughable. And because the above incidents would never occur today without them being secular in nature instead does not change the historical accounts of the country when it comes to it's own moral foundation being Judeo Christian and lying on the cornerstones of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of western civilization was.

[sky dancer]

When President Kennedy was assassinated and his casket rolled down Pennsylvania Avenue, the military band played Onward Christian Soldiers and a variety of other Christian hymns. While his casket was being carried to his final resting place, the band played Nearer My God To Thee. During world war two, President Roosevelt offered prayers to the nation for guidance right before every major offensive by allied forces. The nation's public schools featured daily prayers from the pages of the Holy Bible and contained Bibles in their classrooms as classes were being conducted prior to 1962.

The very idea that America was not and never a Christian nation is Ludacris and laughable. And because the above incidents would never occur today without them being secular in nature instead does not change the historical accounts of the country when it comes to it's own moral foundation being Judeo Christian and lying on the cornerstones of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of western civilization was.

Perhaps, if Kennedy had been Jewish, they would played other music. Do you think we'll ever have a Jewish American President? Why or why not?

The idea that you would impose Christianity on a country that is a religious plurality is ludicrous. The Pilgrims came here to ensure religious liberty and freedom from oppression. Why would you seek to oppress others? Atheists and non-Christians. It doesn't make sense to me.

I do have a problem with SOME Christians who seek to re-write history. Your post seems to indicate you're one of them. Someone who wants the US to be a Christian theocracy, rather than a place of religious freedom for ALL citizens.

[Chris]

Dominionists do exist. They were all fired up 10, 15 years ago to repopulate North Carolina then get elected and run the government there. I have haven't heard much since, google shows the name pops up now and then. They weren't militant. They weren't fringe--not like the Westboro Baptists.

[sky dancer]

Pat Robertson, himself a Dominionist, considered George W Bush the first Dominionist Regent of America. They want America to have a religious ruler.

[sky dancer]

Dominion theology is a Utopian ideal.
It is a belief that this world can, and must, be conquered for Christ by militant action undertaken by the Christian Church. To get a good sense of what is happening in the established Church today see the article Dominionism and the rise of Christian Imperialism (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/sarah-leslie/dominionism.htm) by Sarah Leslie.
Dominion Theology incorporates a Crusader mindset. It teaches that it is our Christian duty to take over the world, in a political sense, and if necessary, in a military sense, in order to impose Biblical rule. Christ will not return, (they say), until the church has "risen up" and "taken dominion" over all of the world's governments and institutions.
Dominionists affirm that this is not a matter for us to discuss. As they see it, this is a direct unequivocal mandate from God. We are not to wait upon God, (they say). They say that He is waiting for US! And they are insistent, even bullying, in their demand that we follow them in their wild ride towards world dominion.
But let's pause for a moment and consider our faith, and the Way of the Cross, the Way of our Lord Jesus. What sort of religious spirits are forcefully herding Christian believers into this impossible dream? Just where are these dark angels driving them?
This is an old story going back to the Crusades and steeped in the Arthurian legends. The fiery zeal for the cross is being magically transformed into a bloody sword. Is this the ultimate calling of Christ? What did the angel Gabriel tell Zechariah? See Zechariah 4:6 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Zechariah%204.6). What did Jesus say to Peter about taking up the sword in His name? See Matthew 26:52 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matthew%2026.52). Who ordained churchmen to dupe Christians in this terrible way? And why are these latter day 'five-fold ministry' (http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks9.htm) churchmen going in the way of the warrior monks (http://endtimepilgrim.org/gnostic.htm) and presuming upon God for an enforced dominion like this? Why are they calling upon Christians to "ride" with them and to dominate the world under this latter day corrupted ecclesiastical leadership? Is there any scriptural basis for this? What does the prophet Daniel say about the destiny of those saints who go out waging war in the latter days? See Daniel 7:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Daniel%207.21). And what was the Apostle John told about the military campaign of the saints against the Antichrist? See Revelation 13:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.7). Is it possible that Christians intent upon the Kingdom Now (http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks9.htm) will be deceived or compromised into religious harlotry (http://endtimepilgrim.org/harlot.htm) as they go out on their quest for a global takeover before Messiah returns? Will many Christians wake up one day to realize that their bid for forceful dominion has actually driven them into compromise and now they are in collusion with the very "god of forces" of the Antichrist himself? Is this the quintessential story of 'Beauty and the Beast' (http://endtimepilgrim.org/beautybeast.htm)? What did Jesus have to say about this? See John 5:43 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John%205.43). Just what will happen to carnal Christians as they ride out on this "last crusade"? Do they know how this campaign will end as they gather at Megiddo? And just who will be the people sown into the ground in the Valley of Jezreel?
http://endtimepilgrim.org/dom.htm

[Chris]

When President Kennedy was assassinated and his casket rolled down Pennsylvania Avenue, the military band played Onward Christian Soldiers and a variety of other Christian hymns. While his casket was being carried to his final resting place, the band played Nearer My God To Thee. During world war two, President Roosevelt offered prayers to the nation for guidance right before every major offensive by allied forces. The nation's public schools featured daily prayers from the pages of the Holy Bible and contained Bibles in their classrooms as classes were being conducted prior to 1962.

The very idea that America was not and never a Christian nation is Ludacris and laughable. And because the above incidents would never occur today without them being secular in nature instead does not change the historical accounts of the country when it comes to it's own moral foundation being Judeo Christian and lying on the cornerstones of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of western civilization was.



You are aware, are you not, that the Bible and prayer were removed from public schools because of court battles between Christians, namely between Protestants and Catholics. Jon Meacham documents the history in American Gospel. Atheists and Jews came in only at the tail end of that.

[Mister D]

Dominionists do exist. They were all fired up 10, 15 years ago to repopulate North Carolina then get elected and run the government there. I have haven't heard much since, google shows the name pops up now and then. They weren't militant. They weren't fringe--not like the Westboro Baptists.

Presumably, that didn't happen because it's fringe. Westboro isn't fringe. There are what...40 of them? They are simply a non-entity for political purposes. The KKK, for example, is fringe.

[Mister D]

Pat Robertson, himself a Dominionist, considered George W Bush the first Dominionist Regent of America. They want America to have a religious ruler.

Yeah, we dodged a bullet there! Whew! Good thing he only had 8 years to turn the US into a theocracy. lol

[Mister D]

Oh, and we've had "religious rulers" since our inception as a nation.

[Mister D]

Dominion theology is a Utopian ideal.
It is a belief that this world can, and must, be conquered for Christ by militant action undertaken by the Christian Church. To get a good sense of what is happening in the established Church today see the article Dominionism and the rise of Christian Imperialism (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/sarah-leslie/dominionism.htm) by Sarah Leslie.
Dominion Theology incorporates a Crusader mindset. It teaches that it is our Christian duty to take over the world, in a political sense, and if necessary, in a military sense, in order to impose Biblical rule. Christ will not return, (they say), until the church has "risen up" and "taken dominion" over all of the world's governments and institutions.
Dominionists affirm that this is not a matter for us to discuss. As they see it, this is a direct unequivocal mandate from God. We are not to wait upon God, (they say). They say that He is waiting for US! And they are insistent, even bullying, in their demand that we follow them in their wild ride towards world dominion.
But let's pause for a moment and consider our faith, and the Way of the Cross, the Way of our Lord Jesus. What sort of religious spirits are forcefully herding Christian believers into this impossible dream? Just where are these dark angels driving them?
This is an old story going back to the Crusades and steeped in the Arthurian legends. The fiery zeal for the cross is being magically transformed into a bloody sword. Is this the ultimate calling of Christ? What did the angel Gabriel tell Zechariah? See Zechariah 4:6 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Zechariah 4.6). What did Jesus say to Peter about taking up the sword in His name? See Matthew 26:52 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matthew 26.52). Who ordained churchmen to dupe Christians in this terrible way? And why are these latter day 'five-fold ministry' (http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks9.htm) churchmen going in the way of the warrior monks (http://endtimepilgrim.org/gnostic.htm) and presuming upon God for an enforced dominion like this? Why are they calling upon Christians to "ride" with them and to dominate the world under this latter day corrupted ecclesiastical leadership? Is there any scriptural basis for this? What does the prophet Daniel say about the destiny of those saints who go out waging war in the latter days? See Daniel 7:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Daniel 7.21). And what was the Apostle John told about the military campaign of the saints against the Antichrist? See Revelation 13:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation 13.7). Is it possible that Christians intent upon the Kingdom Now (http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks9.htm) will be deceived or compromised into religious harlotry (http://endtimepilgrim.org/harlot.htm) as they go out on their quest for a global takeover before Messiah returns? Will many Christians wake up one day to realize that their bid for forceful dominion has actually driven them into compromise and now they are in collusion with the very "god of forces" of the Antichrist himself? Is this the quintessential story of 'Beauty and the Beast' (http://endtimepilgrim.org/beautybeast.htm)? What did Jesus have to say about this? See John 5:43 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John 5.43). Just what will happen to carnal Christians as they ride out on this "last crusade"? Do they know how this campaign will end as they gather at Megiddo? And just who will be the people sown into the ground in the Valley of Jezreel?
http://endtimepilgrim.org/dom.htm



This essay was written by Gavin Finley MD,
an expatriate Australian physician living in the USA.

What do you think these wacko websites prove?

[Mister D]

Stanley Kurtz wrote a funny piece on Dominionism scare. Thsi was back when I still subscribed.

http://old.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200505020944.asp

Snip

There is, in fact, a fringe Christian group of Dominionists or Reconstructionists, who really would like to see an American theocracy, and a return to the death penalty for blasphemy, adultery, sodomy, and witchcraft. The dystopian political program of this utterly marginal, extremist sect has absolutely no traction with anyone of significance. But that hasnt stopped conspiracy mongers on the Left from imagining a murderous Christian plot to destroy America. Ive found a number of Lefty sites that link to the following description of Dominionism at religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm). This description includes the claim that Dominionists advocate genocide for followers of minority groups and non-conforming members of their own religion. Im not sure this is accurate, even for the minuscule number of actual Dominionists. But the disturbing thing is the way this and other Left-leaning sites use logical sleight-of-hand to tar ordinary evangelicals with the madcap musings of a few fevered Dominionists.

[nic34]

The Pilgrims came here to ensure religious liberty and freedom from oppression.

Pilgrims were separatists, and actually they came here to practice their oppressive form of religion (Calvinism) and force it on others....

[Chris]

Presumably, that didn't happen because it's fringe. Westboro isn't fringe. There are what...40 of them? They are simply a non-entity for political purposes. The KKK, for example, is fringe.

In their Democrat heyday the KKK were not fringe. Now they are.

What I remember is Dominionism was quite widespread but only a few actually advocated taking over a state.


I guess fringe to me is the tails of a bell curve. It could also be considered outside mainstream or mainline thought.

[Chris]

Pilgrims were separatists, and actually they came here to practice their oppressive form of religion (Calvinism) and force it on others....



What about Roger Williams?

[jillian]

What about Roger Williams?

what about him?

he believed in separation of church and state. he had the right idea.

[Chris]

what about him?

What, I thought you knew your history.

[jillian]

What, I thought you knew your history.

i do. and i added a point after because i realized i wasn't being clear.

[Mister D]

In their Democrat heyday the KKK were not fringe. Now they are.

What I remember is Dominionism was quite widespread but only a few actually advocated taking over a state.


I guess fringe to me is the tails of a bell curve. It could also be considered outside mainstream or mainline thought.

They were a huge influence in their heyday(s). I meant the contemporary KKK.

I guess it depends on how one defines "Dominionism". If we mean a movement advocating that the nation be governed by biblical law we can't apply it broadly to the "Religious Right" (another problematic term). It's pure demagoguery to assert that such a movement presents any real threat to the American political system or state. What progressive commentators have a problem with is Christians participating in American politics as Christians.

[Chris]

They were a huge influence in their heyday(s). I meant the contemporary KKK.

I guess it depends on how one defines "Dominionism". If we mean a movement advocating that the nation be governed by biblical law we can't apply it broadly to the "Religious Right" (another problematic term). It's pure demagoguery to assert that such a movement presents any real threat to the American political system or state. What progressive commentators have a problem with is Christians participating in American politics as Christians.

Agree, even the Dominionists advocating take over of North Carolina do so within the confines of its laws and government. They never advocated complete overthrow, never advocated theocracy of the sort we see in, say, Iran.

The Domininionist movement was similar to a libertarian movement to re-populate New Hampshire I think it was. This was some years ago, not sure what happened to that either. It would probably take generations to accomplish.

[Chris]

i do. and i added a point after because i realized i wasn't being clear.

Overly simplistic, but it certainly counters nic's blanket statement.

[jillian]

Overly simplistic, but it certainly counters nic's blanket statement.

it was simplistic b/c i was editing. i actually have a high regard for him. he sounds like he was a decent human being.

but i think we can put nic's statement into being generally accurate and williams being the exception proving the rule, perhaps.

[Chris]

it was simplistic b/c i was editing. i actually have a high regard for him. he sounds like he was a decent human being.

but i think we can put nic's statement into being generally accurate and williams being the exception proving the rule, perhaps.


Anne Hutchinson.

Nic's statement was overgeneralized nonsense like your fear of theocracy. The nation didn't go the way of the earliest Pilgrims, but of Williams, Hutchinson and others toward liberty of conscience. Jefferson's wall of separation comes from the following:

"First the faithful labors of many Witnesses of Jesus Christ, extant to the world, abundantly proving, that the Church of the Jews under the Old Testament in the type, and the Church of the Christians under the New Testament in the Antitype, were both separate from the world; and that when they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of Separation between the Garden of the Church and the Wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, and made his Garden a Wilderness, as at this day. And that therefore if he will ever please to restore his Garden and Paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and that all that shall be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the Wilderness of the world, and added unto His Church or Garden."

From Roger Williams, "Mr. Cottons Letter Lately Printed, Examined and Answered,", London, 1644, in Reuben Aldridge Guild, ed., The Complete Writings of Roger Williams (New York: Russell & Russell Inc., 1963) 1:108.


Note that this is a defense of religion against government intrusion.

[jillian]

Anne Hutchinson.

Nic's statement was overgeneralized nonsense like your fear of theocracy. The nation didn't go the way of the earliest Pilgrims, but of Williams, Hutchinson and others toward liberty of conscience. Jefferson's wall of separation comes from the following:

"First the faithful labors of many Witnesses of Jesus Christ, extant to the world, abundantly proving, that the Church of the Jews under the Old Testament in the type, and the Church of the Christians under the New Testament in the Antitype, were both separate from the world; and that when they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of Separation between the Garden of the Church and the Wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, and made his Garden a Wilderness, as at this day. And that therefore if he will ever please to restore his Garden and Paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and that all that shall be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the Wilderness of the world, and added unto His Church or Garden."

From Roger Williams, "Mr. Cottons Letter Lately Printed, Examined and Answered,", London, 1644, in Reuben Aldridge Guild, ed., The Complete Writings of Roger Williams (New York: Russell & Russell Inc., 1963) 1:108.


Note that this is a defense of religion against government intrusion.

how is a desire not to have theocrats run my government the same as "fear" or is "overgeneralized"?

religion shouldn't intrude on government

government shouldn't intrude on religion.

it's a great set up. i support it 1000%

[Mister D]

how is a desire not to have theocrats run my government the same as "fear" or is "overgeneralized"?

religion shouldn't intrude on government

government shouldn't intrude on religion.

it's a great set up. i support it 1000%

Because the threat of "theocrats" to your government is like the threat of being mauled by a Grizzly bear in your NYC neighborhood. That is, it's possible but hardly a cause for concern and certainly not for the extreme rhetoric you routinely employ against those whose politics you dislike.

[Chris]

how is a desire not to have theocrats run my government the same as "fear" or is "overgeneralized"?

religion shouldn't intrude on government

government shouldn't intrude on religion.

it's a great set up. i support it 1000%



It's your fear of Christians seeking a theocracy that's overplayed. It's mere baiting people away from the topic.


Surely you're not saying the 75% plus Christians and those of other religions here in the US should have no say in government.


What about your Hegelian religion, statism, shouldn't that be kept out of governing as well?

[Philly Rabbit]

Perhaps, if Kennedy had been Jewish, they would played other music. Do you think we'll ever have a Jewish American President? Why or why not?

The idea that you would impose Christianity on a country that is a religious plurality is ludicrous. The Pilgrims came here to ensure religious liberty and freedom from oppression. Why would you seek to oppress others? Atheists and non-Christians. It doesn't make sense to me.

I do have a problem with SOME Christians who seek to re-write history. Your post seems to indicate you're one of them. Someone who wants the US to be a Christian theocracy, rather than a place of religious freedom for ALL citizens.

I didn't "rewrite history", I just gave you historical facts that you discount as being history revision.

So why is it so difficult for you to admit that you and your associates eradicated the culture that was in place and replaced it with secular multiculturalism with different cultures being balkanized and leviathan providing them social services without you denying America's historical Judeo Christian past existed and flourished?

[Philly Rabbit]

It's your fear of Christians seeking a theocracy that's overplayed. It's mere baiting people away from the topic.


Surely you're not saying the 75% plus Christians and those of other religions here in the US should have no say in government.


What about your Hegelian religion, statism, shouldn't that be kept out of governing as well?


Why don't you ask her if she's in favor of the government taxing the churches?

[nic34]

What about Roger Williams?

What about him?

He was banished from Salem because did not believe in forcing oppressive Calvinism on others....

[roadmaster]

That would be hard to do with so many Christians here. You can destroy buildings but the true Church is it's people.

[Philly Rabbit]

That would be hard to do with so many Christians here. You can destroy buildings but the true Church is it's people.

So how does taxing the churches separate church and state?

[roadmaster]

So how does taxing the churches separate church and state? It is money we give freely to the Churches to feed the poor and homeless ect. Should the state also tax any money you give your kids when they are young?

[jillian]

It's your fear of Christians seeking a theocracy that's overplayed. It's mere baiting people away from the topic.


Surely you're not saying the 75% plus Christians and those of other religions here in the US should have no say in government.


What about your Hegelian religion, statism, shouldn't that be kept out of governing as well?

you keep using the word "fear". i have no "fear". i don't think their beliefs are founded, but that's their business.

perhaps if they weren't always trying to make their religious beliefs law, you wouldn think me "afraid" because i don't really care what people believe if they don't impose it on anyone else or hurt anyone else.

[Alyosha]

you keep using the word "fear". i have no "fear". i don't think their beliefs are founded, but that's their business.

perhaps if they weren't always trying to make their religious beliefs law, you wouldn think me "afraid" because i don't really care what people believe if they don't impose it on anyone else or hurt anyone else.

Can you define what you mean by "impose" or "hurt anyone else"? I'm curious.

[Chris]

you keep using the word "fear". i have no "fear". i don't think their beliefs are founded, but that's their business.

perhaps if they weren't always trying to make their religious beliefs law, you wouldn think me "afraid" because i don't really care what people believe if they don't impose it on anyone else or hurt anyone else.



Where does this "thing" for theocracy come from then? It's not a reality here. There's no one there when you speak of "i don't think their beliefs are founded, but that's their business"? Who again when you say "perhaps if they weren't always trying to make their religious beliefs law"? Who is "they"? Why do you keep harping on it?

Not fear? Hate"

[Chris]

Can you define what you mean by "impose" or "hurt anyone else"? I'm curious.



Right, who are "they" and what would they "impose"?

[Mister D]

Where does this "thing" for theocracy come from then? It's not a reality here. There's no one there when you speak of "i don't think their beliefs are founded, but that's their business"? Who again when you say "perhaps if they weren't always trying to make their religious beliefs law"? Who is "they"? Why do you keep harping on it?

Not fear? Hate"

4161

[Chris]

This is the sort of theocracy to be feared, progressive theocracy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otRopS2TUHA#t=155

From the Acton Institute where I found this, Jim Wallis on the Shutdown: ‘It’s Unbiblical’ (http://blog.acton.org/archives/60814-jim-wallis-shutdown-unbiblical.html):


...Wallis claims that those who support the government shutdown are “against government per se. They want to destroy the House.” The most generous thing that can be said about such a claim is that it is idiotic. But I can’t be that generous to Wallis because I know he is an intelligent gentleman. He’s not an idiot, he’s just dishonest. He knows that supporters of a government shutdown (and for the record, that does not include me) are not anarchists. Yet that is exactly what he is claiming. He knows it’s a lie and yet repeats the claim anyway.

His second claims is equally stupid. He says, “Because the government has a Biblical responsibility to care for the poor, they are against poor people. They get hostile to the poor because they are hostile to government. That’s also wrong. It’s unbiblical.”

By Wallis’ logic, opposition to the government of the Soviet Union was unbiblical since hostility toward a government is hostility toward the poor....

And that refers to another criticism of Wallis, It’s Not Theology, It’s Ideology (http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/03/its-not-theology-its-ideology/):


...I believe that Jim Wallis is passionate in his support of the Affordable Care Act. I believe that his support derives from a bona fide belief on his part that the ACA is good for the poorest and most vulnerable among us. But I also believe in the good faith of many, if not most, of the Republicans who disagree with him. Numerous Republicans believe, in good faith, that current levels of taxation and regulation serve as a deterrent to the type of economic growth that would best serve to reduce poverty and to empower the weak....

But Wallis doesn’t want to paint in policy gray. He wants to paint in black and white, where good people support the policies that he supports and bad people oppose the policies that he supports. So he seeks to escalate a policy debate into a debate between those who support biblical truth and those who oppose it.

Wallis criticizes the Republican “extremists,” saying “What’s happening here is more than politics, it’s ideology.” Despite Wallis’s claim to be advancing a “theological” criticism of what’s happening, what’s happening in Wallis’s YouTube video is not theology, it’s ideology in theological clothing.

[sky dancer]

That would be hard to do with so many Christians here. You can destroy buildings but the true Church is it's people.

The true church would be Christians who have Christ-like qualities.

[sky dancer]

I didn't "rewrite history", I just gave you historical facts that you discount as being history revision.

So why is it so difficult for you to admit that you and your associates eradicated the culture that was in place and replaced it with secular multiculturalism with different cultures being balkanized and leviathan providing them social services without you denying America's historical Judeo Christian past existed and flourished?

You're sure giving me and my "associates" (whoever they are), more power than I actually experience to "eradicate the culture". Some things in our culture are worthy of being eradicated.

[sky dancer]

Regarding American Christian theocrats:


Dominionism is a tendency among Protestant Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists that encourages them to not only be active political participants in civic society, but also seek to dominate the political process as part of a mandate from God.

This highly politicized concept of dominionism is based on the Bible's text in Genesis 1:26:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (King James Version).
"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" (New International Version).


The vast majority of Christians read this text and conclude that God has appointed them stewards and caretakers of Earth. As Sara Diamond explains, however, some Christian read the text and believe, "that Christians alone are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns." That, in a nutshell, is the idea of "dominionism."

"Pat Robertson makes frequent use of 'dominion' language" his book, The Secret Kingdom, has often been cited for its theonomy elements; and pluralists were made uncomfortable when, during his presidential campaign, he said he 'would only bring Christians and Jews into the government,' as well as when he later wrote, 'There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.'

Jay Grimstead, who leads the Coalition on Revival, which brings Reconstructionists together with more mainstream evangelicals, has said, 'I don't call myself [a Reconstructionist],' but 'A lot of us are coming to realize that the Bible is God's standard of morality . . . in all points of history . . . and for all societies, Christian and non-Christian alike. . . .

It so happens that Rushdoony, Bahnsen, and North understood that sooner.' There are a lot of us floating around in Christian leadership James Kennedy is one of them-who don't go all the way with the theonomy thing, but who want to rebuild America based on the Bible.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/

[Mister D]

theocracywatch :laugh:

Speaking of Diamond...


First, there is no “school of thought” known as “dominionism.” The term was coined in the 1980s by Diamond and is never used outside liberal blogs and websites. No reputable scholars use the term for it is a meaningless neologism that Diamond concocted for her dissertation.



http://www.firstthings.com/onthesqua...the-new-yorker (http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/08/a-journalism-lesson-for-the-new-yorker)

[sky dancer]

Theocratic Organizations

Alliance for Marriage (http://www.allianceformarriage.org/site/PageServer)
America's Foundation (http://www.americas-foundation.org/) - Rick Santorum's Political Action Committee
American Center for Law and Justice (http://www.aclj.org/)
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/)
American Vision (http://www.americanvision.org/) - founded by Gary Demar, leading theocratic ideologue
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights (http://www.catholicleague.org/)
Center for Arizona Policy (http://www.azpolicy.org/)
Chalcedon Foundation (http://www.chalcedon.edu/) - led by R. J. Rushdoony
Christian Action Network (http://www.christianaction.org/)
Christian Business Men's Committee (http://www.cbmc.com/)
Christian Coalition of America (http://www.cc.org/)
Christian Exodus (http://christianexodus.org/)
ChristianAmerica.Com (http://www.christianamerica.com/)
Citizens for Excellence in Education (http://www.nace-cee.org/) - arm of National Association of Christian Educators
CitizenLink.Com (http://www.citizenlink.org/) - an arm of Focus on the Family
Coalition on Revival (http://www.reformation.net/) - Applying Biblical Principles to Every Sphere of Life and Thought
Concerned Women for America (http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp)
Constitutional Law for Enlightened Citizens (http://conlaw.hslda.org/cms/)
Coral Ridge Ministries (http://www.coralridge.org/) - led by D. James Kennedy
Council for National Policy (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Council_for_National_Policy) - secret government council policy formed by Tim LaHaye
Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (http://cbmw.org/index.php)
Creation Resource Foundation (http://www.creationresource.org/index.html)
Eagle Forum (http://www.eagleforum.org/)
Family Policy Network (http://familypolicy.net/us/)
Family Research Council (http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?c=HOME)
Free Congress Foundation (http://www.freecongress.org/)
Home School Foundation (http://www.homeschoolfoundation.org/) - funded by the HSLDA
Home School Legal Defense Association (http://www.hslda.org/) (HSLDA)
Institute for Christian Economics (http://reformed-theology.org/ice/) - led by Gary North
National Association of Christian Educators (http://www.nace-cee.org/) (NACE)
Joshua Generation (http://www.joshuageneration.org/) - aimed at 11 to 19 year olds; affiliated with Patrick Henry College
National Center for Home Education (http://nche.hslda.org/) - affiliated with HSLDF
National Clergy Council (http://www.nationalclergycouncil.org/index.htm)
National Home Education Research Institute (http://www.nheri.org/) (NHERI)- funded by HSLDF
Operation Rescue (http://www.operationrescue.org/)
Restore America (http://www.restoreamerica.org/index.asp)
Rutherford Institute (http://www.rutherford.org/)
Traditional Values Coalition (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/)
Vision America (http://www.visionamerica.us/site/PageServer) - founded by Rick Scarborough, Baptist
Vision Forum Ministries (http://www.visionforumministries.org/)
Wall Builders (http://www.wallbuilders.com/) - led by David Barton
Worldview Weekend (http://www.worldviewweekend.com/)
Theocratic Educational Institutions

Patrick Henry College (http://www.phc.edu/) - for homeschooled children, partner of HSLDF
Regent University (http://www.regent.edu/) - "Regent" refers to Christian rulers who will govern the nation
Theocratic Publications and Media

A Christian Manifesto (http://www.peopleforlife.org/francis.html) - address by Francis A. Schaeffer; summary of theocratic views
A Manifesto for the Christian Church (http://www.reformation.net/COR/cordocs/Manifesto.pdf) - endorsed by the major theocratic players
American Vision Home School Online Store (http://www.americanvision.org/store/c-17-homeschool-resources.aspx?pagenum=1)
Biblical Worldview Magazine (http://www.americanvision.org/biblicalworldview.asp)
Citizen Magazine (http://www.citizenlink.org/citizenmag/) - published by Focus on the Family
Civilized Revolt (http://www.civilizedrevolt.com/) (Formerly Virtue Magazine)
FreeBooks (http://www.freebooks.com/) - from the Institute for Christian Economics
Generations (http://generations.iwebc.net/Index.html) - Radio Program
Home School Heartbeat (http://www.hslda.org/docs/hshb/73/hshbwk1.asp) (Radio program)
LifeWay Homeschool, Southern Baptist Convention (http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/mainpage/0,1701,M%253D200745,00.html) - affiliated with HSLDF & NHERI
WorldView Magazine (http://www.worldviewmagazine.com/)

http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/theocracy.htm

[sky dancer]

It’s tempting to think that those who call America a “Christian Nation” simply mean that Christianity historically has been the majority religion and the basis for many elements of our national culture, which of course is true. But that is not what they mean. Evangelical preachers and conservative politicians calling for America to be a “Christian Nation” mean something very different: a country uniquely favored by the Judeo-Christian God, founded to create a “Godly Kingdom” in the new world, and destined, as the shining “city upon a Hill” envisioned by the Puritans, to be a just and pious land dedicated to drawing all the nations of the world to the redemptive message of Jesus. And some of them believe that realization of this destiny is a condition for the second coming of Christ.

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life estimates that groups representing these citizens spend about $390 million each year to lobby the government to impose their religion-based agenda on the rest of us.

Despite its patent fallacy, the impact of the “Christian Nation” revisionist history on American attitudes is substantial. Recent evidence of its success includes a YouGov Poll (http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/toplines_churchstate_0403042013.pdf) conducted in April, which found that 34% of Americans were in favor—and 20% were strongly in favor—of establishing Christianity as the official religion in their state. You read that correctly: 34% in favor of establishing Christianity as the state religion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/03/we-re-not-a-goddamn-christian-nation.html

[Mr Happy]

I didn't "rewrite history", I just gave you historical facts that you discount as being history revision.

So why is it so difficult for you to admit that you and your associates eradicated the culture that was in place and replaced it with secular multiculturalism with different cultures being balkanized and leviathan providing them social services without you denying America's historical Judeo Christian past existed and flourished?

You mean much like the Europeans eradicated the Native American culture? Karma is a bitch, eh?

[jillian]

I didn't "rewrite history", I just gave you historical facts that you discount as being history revision.

So why is it so difficult for you to admit that you and your associates eradicated the culture that was in place and replaced it with secular multiculturalism with different cultures being balkanized and leviathan providing them social services without you denying America's historical Judeo Christian past existed and flourished?

flourished? all those wonderful things like slavery and jim crow and needing troops to walk black kids into school...

ah... the good ole days.

[Philly Rabbit]

The true church would be Christians who have Christ-like qualities.

Nobody has "Christ Like" qualities. People are flawed and only Christ himself was divine. The entire human race is flawed because it's made up of flawed people and any government people come up with will also be flawed. That's the reason absolute virtue in society is an impossible goal to reach but those who hold the Christian philosophy while not necessarily holding the Christian faith still strive for it.

This was part of the culture that the left destroyed and what the left replaced it with doesn't hold any such lofty goals because the left believes in self gratifying goals that are interchangeable depending on one's mood.

[jillian]

Nobody has "Christ Like" qualities. People are flawed and only Christ himself was divine. The entire human race is flawed because it's made up of flawed people and any government people come up with will also be flawed. That's the reason absolute virtue in society is an impossible goal to reach but those who hold the Christian philosophy while not necessarily holding the Christian faith still strive for it.

This was part of the culture that the left destroyed and what the left replaced it with doesn't hold any such lofty goals because the left believes in self gratifying goals that are interchangeable depending on one's mood.

you keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over....

it doesn't make it any more true.

whatever it is you believe, you're welcome to it... the fact that others of us don't believe what you do is protected by the first amendment...and government and religion were never allowed to be interrelated.

even christians don't agree on what christianity is..... but you're going to impose your religion on the rest of us?

[Philly Rabbit]

flourished? all those wonderful things like slavery and jim crow and needing troops to walk black kids into school...

ah... the good ole days.

So here you're admitting you replaced a culture with another culture in the name of social justice and human rights as is the case whenever the left does anything in both their names. So you're admitting that America was once a Christian nation and you helped to get rid of it and you replaced it with secularism and multiculturalism.

And you can admit it in the name of social justice and human rights without further having to claim that what you replaced never existed in the first place.

[Philly Rabbit]

you keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over....

it doesn't make it any more true.

whatever it is you believe, you're welcome to it... the fact that others of us don't believe what you do is protected by the first amendment...and government and religion were never allowed to be interrelated.

even christians don't agree on what christianity is..... but you're going to impose your religion on the rest of us?

This isn't the point of the thread. This thread has gone on endlessly with one side .. your side claiming that I want to turn America into a religious theocracy and another side claiming that I actually don't want that. This isn't the point of the thread also.

How can you turn the country into a religious theocracy out of something that doesn't even exist anymore?

Perhaps now you can tell me why the states placed Bibles in their public schools?

Can you?

[kilgram]

It would be nice that Christianism, religion left to be so important in USA. But USA is ages far to see this.

[Mister D]

Theocratic Organizations

Alliance for Marriage (http://www.allianceformarriage.org/site/PageServer)
America's Foundation (http://www.americas-foundation.org/) - Rick Santorum's Political Action Committee
American Center for Law and Justice (http://www.aclj.org/)
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/)
American Vision (http://www.americanvision.org/) - founded by Gary Demar, leading theocratic ideologue
Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights (http://www.catholicleague.org/)
Center for Arizona Policy (http://www.azpolicy.org/)
Chalcedon Foundation (http://www.chalcedon.edu/) - led by R. J. Rushdoony
Christian Action Network (http://www.christianaction.org/)
Christian Business Men's Committee (http://www.cbmc.com/)
Christian Coalition of America (http://www.cc.org/)
Christian Exodus (http://christianexodus.org/)
ChristianAmerica.Com (http://www.christianamerica.com/)
Citizens for Excellence in Education (http://www.nace-cee.org/) - arm of National Association of Christian Educators
CitizenLink.Com (http://www.citizenlink.org/) - an arm of Focus on the Family
Coalition on Revival (http://www.reformation.net/) - Applying Biblical Principles to Every Sphere of Life and Thought
Concerned Women for America (http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp)
Constitutional Law for Enlightened Citizens (http://conlaw.hslda.org/cms/)
Coral Ridge Ministries (http://www.coralridge.org/) - led by D. James Kennedy
Council for National Policy (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Council_for_National_Policy) - secret government council policy formed by Tim LaHaye
Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (http://cbmw.org/index.php)
Creation Resource Foundation (http://www.creationresource.org/index.html)
Eagle Forum (http://www.eagleforum.org/)
Family Policy Network (http://familypolicy.net/us/)
Family Research Council (http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?c=HOME)
Free Congress Foundation (http://www.freecongress.org/)
Home School Foundation (http://www.homeschoolfoundation.org/) - funded by the HSLDA
Home School Legal Defense Association (http://www.hslda.org/) (HSLDA)
Institute for Christian Economics (http://reformed-theology.org/ice/) - led by Gary North
National Association of Christian Educators (http://www.nace-cee.org/) (NACE)
Joshua Generation (http://www.joshuageneration.org/) - aimed at 11 to 19 year olds; affiliated with Patrick Henry College
National Center for Home Education (http://nche.hslda.org/) - affiliated with HSLDF
National Clergy Council (http://www.nationalclergycouncil.org/index.htm)
National Home Education Research Institute (http://www.nheri.org/) (NHERI)- funded by HSLDF
Operation Rescue (http://www.operationrescue.org/)
Restore America (http://www.restoreamerica.org/index.asp)
Rutherford Institute (http://www.rutherford.org/)
Traditional Values Coalition (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/)
Vision America (http://www.visionamerica.us/site/PageServer) - founded by Rick Scarborough, Baptist
Vision Forum Ministries (http://www.visionforumministries.org/)
Wall Builders (http://www.wallbuilders.com/) - led by David Barton
Worldview Weekend (http://www.worldviewweekend.com/)
Theocratic Educational Institutions

Patrick Henry College (http://www.phc.edu/) - for homeschooled children, partner of HSLDF
Regent University (http://www.regent.edu/) - "Regent" refers to Christian rulers who will govern the nation
Theocratic Publications and Media

A Christian Manifesto (http://www.peopleforlife.org/francis.html) - address by Francis A. Schaeffer; summary of theocratic views
A Manifesto for the Christian Church (http://www.reformation.net/COR/cordocs/Manifesto.pdf) - endorsed by the major theocratic players
American Vision Home School Online Store (http://www.americanvision.org/store/c-17-homeschool-resources.aspx?pagenum=1)
Biblical Worldview Magazine (http://www.americanvision.org/biblicalworldview.asp)
Citizen Magazine (http://www.citizenlink.org/citizenmag/) - published by Focus on the Family
Civilized Revolt (http://www.civilizedrevolt.com/) (Formerly Virtue Magazine)
FreeBooks (http://www.freebooks.com/) - from the Institute for Christian Economics
Generations (http://generations.iwebc.net/Index.html) - Radio Program
Home School Heartbeat (http://www.hslda.org/docs/hshb/73/hshbwk1.asp) (Radio program)
LifeWay Homeschool, Southern Baptist Convention (http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/mainpage/0,1701,M%3D200745,00.html) - affiliated with HSLDF & NHERI
WorldView Magazine (http://www.worldviewmagazine.com/)

http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/theocracy.htm

:laugh: For example, could you explain to me how exactly the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights is a theocratic organization? Man, they really know how to play on your fears and hatred.

[Mister D]

It would be nice that Christianism, religion left to be so important in USA. But USA is ages far to see this.

Spain is dying.

[Green Arrow]

I have nothing against Christians or Christianity, and have no desire to see them or their religion eliminated from American culture. However, I do like that people like me, who are not Christian, are getting more and more of a say, without being drowned out.

[Green Arrow]

Spain is dying.

The whole world is dying. What's your point?

[Mister D]

The whole world is dying. What's your point?

No, the world is not dying. Moreover, even in places that have sagging birthrates Spain stands out. It's in a death spiral. Again, such insouciance is to be expected. It's how we got here.

[Mister D]

I have nothing against Christians or Christianity, and have no desire to see them or their religion eliminated from American culture. However, I do like that people like me, who are not Christian, are getting more and more of a say, without being drowned out.

What is it precisely that you have to say?

[Green Arrow]

What is it precisely that you have to say?

A lot, same as anyone.

[Green Arrow]

No, the world is not dying. Moreover, even in places that have sagging birthrates Spain stands out. It's in a death spiral. Again, such insouciance is to be expected. It's how we got here.

There's more to death than the physical aspect.

[Mister D]

There's more to death than the physical aspect.

Indeed, there is. With the people goes the culture and vice versa apparently.

[Chris]

This isn't the point of the thread. This thread has gone on endlessly with one side .. your side claiming that I want to turn America into a religious theocracy and another side claiming that I actually don't want that. This isn't the point of the thread also.

How can you turn the country into a religious theocracy out of something that doesn't even exist anymore?

Perhaps now you can tell me why the states placed Bibles in their public schools?

Can you?



But that's jillian's thing, to troll threads into her rant, her fears and hatreds, which she will repeat over and over again. It's intended to detract from deterioration of the culture. Part of the deterioration is reflected in her distortion of the Constitution which doesn't say religion cannot influence nor the religious participate, only that there be no religious test.

[Mister D]

A lot, same as anyone.

What was it that you were prevented from saying before?

[Mister D]

But that's jillian's thing, to troll threads into her rant, her fears and hatreds, which she will repeat over and over again. It's intended to detract from deterioration of the culture. Part of the deterioration is reflected in her distortion of the Constitution which doesn't say religion cannot influence nor the religious participate, only that there be no religious test.

Right. The problem isn't theocrats. The problem is that anyone who dares display a religious sensibility in public is smeared as a theocrat by the likes of Jillian et al. If religious sentiment is expressed in the public sphere its been "shoved down her throat", apparently.

[Chris]

Right. The problem isn't theocrats. The problem is that anyone who dares display a religious sensibility in public is smeared as a theocrat by the likes of Jillian et al. If religious sentiment is expressed in the public sphere its been "shoved down her throat", apparently.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson

[sky dancer]

Nobody has "Christ Like" qualities. People are flawed and only Christ himself was divine. The entire human race is flawed because it's made up of flawed people and any government people come up with will also be flawed. That's the reason absolute virtue in society is an impossible goal to reach but those who hold the Christian philosophy while not necessarily holding the Christian faith still strive for it.

This was part of the culture that the left destroyed and what the left replaced it with doesn't hold any such lofty goals because the left believes in self gratifying goals that are interchangeable depending on one's mood.

That's not true. If you cannot aspire to developing the love, compassion, joy and equanimity that Christ exemplified then what is the point of your so-called Christianity?

Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are qualities that human beings have the capacity to develop on a true spiritual path. Christ is the example for Christians of being God infused and human. That is what he enjoined his followers to do. NOT beat people over the head with the Bible.

Unfortunately, the Christians who seek to follow in Jesus footsteps are far too few. They decide they're already "saved" and go on vacation or worse, like Scott Lively, sow disharmony in the world.

Christianity has the capacity, like many other religions, to help people develop "good heart". That's what they need to BE, not preach.

BE your Christianity. Be the spacious Christ-like presence the world needs. NOT some narrow minded political fanatic out to change the world to suit his or her concept of world domination, or even, on a smaller scale, telling other people what they should do. Let Christians take their own advice and be Christ's true followers on this earth.

Human beings may have flaws. NO one is perfect. But we do have the capacity to develop qualities that the world needs more of.

[Green Arrow]

What was it that you were prevented from saying before?

I wasn't prevented from saying anything, but there's a lot government-wise I can't do because I and others of like mind are drowned out by the Christian majority that tends to be united on such things.

[sky dancer]

I wasn't prevented from saying anything, but there's a lot government-wise I can't do because I and others of like mind are drowned out by the Christian majority that tends to be united on such things.

One thing never mentioned much by the Constitutional hawks regarding freedom of religion is that the Bill of Rights exist to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

[Green Arrow]

One thing never mentioned much by the Constitutional hawks regarding freedom of religion is that the Bill of Rights exist to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

Well, not to be nitpicky, but it's our republic system of government, not the constitution specifically, that protects the minority from majority tyranny. Though, in the last few decades we've functioned more as a straight-up mob rule democracy.

[Chris]

One thing never mentioned much by the Constitutional hawks regarding freedom of religion is that the Bill of Rights exist to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

Not really. What the BoR does is protect the people from government infringement of out natural rights.

[Mister D]

I wasn't prevented from saying anything, but there's a lot government-wise I can't do because I and others of like mind are drowned out by the Christian majority that tends to be united on such things.

What things?

[Mister D]

One thing never mentioned much by the Constitutional hawks regarding freedom of religion is that the Bill of Rights exist to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

What tyranny? Are you referring to your theocratic bogeymen again?

[Mister D]

That's not true. If you cannot aspire to developing the love, compassion, joy and equanimity that Christ exemplified then what is the point of your so-called Christianity?

Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are qualities that human beings have the capacity to develop on a true spiritual path. Christ is the example for Christians of being God infused and human. That is what he enjoined his followers to do. NOT beat people over the head with the Bible.

Unfortunately, the Christians who seek to follow in Jesus footsteps are far too few. They decide they're already "saved" and go on vacation or worse, like Scott Lively, sow disharmony in the world.

Christianity has the capacity, like many other religions, to help people develop "good heart". That's what they need to BE, not preach.

BE your Christianity. Be the spacious Christ-like presence the world needs. NOT some narrow minded political fanatic out to change the world to suit his or her concept of world domination, or even, on a smaller scale, telling other people what they should do. Let Christians take their own advice and be Christ's true followers on this earth.

Human beings may have flaws. NO one is perfect. But we do have the capacity to develop qualities that the world needs more of.

We'll take that under advisement. :laugh:

[Green Arrow]

What things?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/08/article-0-0290058B00000578-290_468x286.jpg

These games get real annoying real fast. Get to your point.

[Mister D]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/08/article-0-0290058B00000578-290_468x286.jpg

These games get real annoying real fast. Get to your point.

Games? :rollseyes: Never mind then. If asking you what you mean pisses you off I'll have to remember not to ask.

[Philly Rabbit]

That's not true. If you cannot aspire to developing the love, compassion, joy and equanimity that Christ exemplified then what is the point of your so-called Christianity?

Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are qualities that human beings have the capacity to develop on a true spiritual path. Christ is the example for Christians of being God infused and human. That is what he enjoined his followers to do. NOT beat people over the head with the Bible.

Unfortunately, the Christians who seek to follow in Jesus footsteps are far too few. They decide they're already "saved" and go on vacation or worse, like Scott Lively, sow disharmony in the world.

Christianity has the capacity, like many other religions, to help people develop "good heart". That's what they need to BE, not preach.

BE your Christianity. Be the spacious Christ-like presence the world needs. NOT some narrow minded political fanatic out to change the world to suit his or her concept of world domination, or even, on a smaller scale, telling other people what they should do. Let Christians take their own advice and be Christ's true followers on this earth.

Human beings may have flaws. NO one is perfect. But we do have the capacity to develop qualities that the world needs more of.


You said "Christ Like" which is the same thing as absolute virtue which is impossible. But the quest for virtue which is what western civilized Christianity and America always held has now been replaced by those denying America's Christian heritage with instant self gratification and egalitarianism.

The middle class who's taxes gladly payed for monuments of their Christian heritage has had their religious freedoms stripped away from them while their taxes are now being shipped to the multicultural freeloader invader immigrants in the name of once again, social justice and human rights.

[jillian]

Well, not to be nitpicky, but it's our republic system of government, not the constitution specifically, that protects the minority from majority tyranny. Though, in the last few decades we've functioned more as a straight-up mob rule democracy.

i don't see that at all... it is the protections built in to the system that protect from tyranny of the majority, most specificaly, the Courts. what you call the "republican" form of government reinforces power held by the majority. so i'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

[Chris]

i don't see that at all... it is the protections built in to the system that protect from tyranny of the majority, most specificaly, the Courts. what you call the "republican" form of government reinforces power held by the majority. so i'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

Read Madison's Federalist 51 to see just how wrong you are, jillian. The Constitution was design to limit government, not the people.

[Green Arrow]

i don't see that at all... it is the protections built in to the system that protect from tyranny of the majority, most specificaly, the Courts. what you call the "republican" form of government reinforces power held by the majority. so i'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

The republican structure of government has specific controls built into it to allow minorities greater say. We have, in this country, devolved the structure fairly rapidly. We still have a lot of the controls in place, but they hardly do their job. The electoral college is one such example.

[Green Arrow]

Games? :rollseyes: Never mind then. If asking you what you mean pisses you off I'll have to remember not to ask.

I just don't see how it's not obvious. I'm saying Christians outnumber me and thus my stance on issues has not typically been widely received. It has been lately with the slight decline of Christianity in America, but before that, not so much.

The answer to your question is: what issues are typically supported by Christians? Those are the ones I generally disagree with.

[Mister D]

I just don't see how it's not obvious. I'm saying Christians outnumber me and thus my stance on issues has not typically been widely received. It has been lately with the slight decline of Christianity in America, but before that, not so much.

The answer to your question is: what issues are typically supported by Christians? Those are the ones I generally disagree with.

One last try...

Could you be a little more specific. Give an example of an issue?

[Green Arrow]

One last try...

Could you be a little more specific. Give an example of an issue?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1290449/picard-facepalm-o.gif

Let's try gay marriage, since that seems to be a hot button issue these days.

[Mister D]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1290449/picard-facepalm-o.gif

Let's try gay marriage, since that seems to be a hot button issue these days.

Opposition to gay marriage is not necessarily based on religion. Mine certainly isn't. Likewise, abortion. In fact, there are at least 3 atheists/irreligious folks on this forum who are pro-life.

[Mister D]

Better still, if Christians weer overwhelmingly against gay marriage it would not be an issue.

[Green Arrow]

Opposition to gay marriage is not necessarily based on religion. Mine certainly isn't. Likewise, abortion. In fact, there are at least 3 atheists/irreligious folks on this forum who are pro-life.

There are oddballs in every basket, true. And I don't mean that offensively, by the way. It's just not the norm.


Better still, if Christians weer overwhelmingly against gay marriage it would not be an issue.

I disagree. You'll always have your forces that oppose something, even if it is a vast majority arrayed against them.

I will agree, though, that Christians are no longer united on the issue. Younger Christians seem almost united in support of it.

[Mister D]

There are oddballs in every basket, true. And I don't mean that offensively, by the way. It's just not the norm.



I disagree. You'll always have your forces that oppose something, even if it is a vast majority arrayed against them.

I will agree, though, that Christians are no longer united on the issue. Younger Christians seem almost united in support of it.

Except there is nothing particulary odd about them in this case. Religion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it and that perception (no doubt heavily influenced by the American media) hinder discussion. I'm relatively devout. My objections to gay marriage have nothing to do with religion. That said, the last thing we need is yet another gay marriage thread so lets leave that there.

If 70 plus % of the US electorate was aganst something like gay marriage it would never stand a chance. Gay advocates rely on emotional pleas and the like as opposed to the "treason lobby" which has massive amounts of money and influence and has thwarted the will of the people before.

[Green Arrow]

Except there is nothing particulary odd about them in this case. Religion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it and that perception (no doubt heavily influenced by the American media) hinder discussion. I'm relatively devout. My objections to gay marriage have nothing to do with religion. That said, the last thing we need is yet another gay marriage thread so lets leave that there.

I wasn't planning on getting into one, in all honesty. I'm quite bored with the whole issue, and I say this as a bi man myself. I'm ready for the issue to be over and done with so we can all move on.


If 70 plus % of the US electorate was aganst something like gay marriage it would never stand a chance. Gay advocates rely on emotional pleas and the like as opposed to the "treason lobby" which has massive amounts of money and influence and has thwarted the will of the people before.

Yes, that's how every advocacy group operates.

[ChoppedLiver]

You mean much like the Europeans eradicated the Native American culture? Karma is a bitch, eh?


flourished? all those wonderful things like slavery and jim crow and needing troops to walk black kids into school...

ah... the good ole days.

Why is it such that, when decerebrate liberals comment on a past time when America was actually a great country, they seem to only comment on aspects of this country that were unfavorable? Even though there has been corrections to rectify those unfavorable aspects, that is the stuff that they dwell on. And nothing else, so it seems.

:cool:

[shaarona]

Why is it such that, when decerebrate liberals comment on a past time when America was actually a great country, they seem to only comment on aspects of this country that were unfavorable? Even though there has been corrections to rectify those unfavorable aspects, that is the stuff that they dwell on. And nothing else, so it seems.

:cool:

Too much focus on being liberal or conservative.. How about being Americans and considering what is good for the country.

[Mister D]

Why is it such that, when decerebrate liberals comment on a past time when America was actually a great country, they seem to only comment on aspects of this country that were unfavorable? Even though there has been corrections to rectify those unfavorable aspects, that is the stuff that they dwell on. And nothing else, so it seems.

:cool:

It's the relentless logic of equality. The 1950s were evil. Two homos couldn't marry. The 2010s will be evil because we looked twice at a guy who fucks his dog.

[sky dancer]

You said "Christ Like" which is the same thing as absolute virtue which is impossible. But the quest for virtue which is what western civilized Christianity and America always held has now been replaced by those denying America's Christian heritage with instant self gratification and egalitarianism.

The middle class who's taxes gladly payed for monuments of their Christian heritage has had their religious freedoms stripped away from them while their taxes are now being shipped to the multicultural freeloader invader immigrants in the name of once again, social justice and human rights.

Christ was the epitome of love, compassion, joy and equanimity. He didn't choose sides in political arguments or even care much for politics. Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are very humanly possible states of mind that true Christians would be wise to follow in.

It's just an opportunity to really be a much better PR person for Christianity by BEING these qualities that Christ invited all to be. I'm sorry that you can't see the point I'm trying to make.

[Mister D]

Christ was the epitome of love, compassion, joy and equanimity. He didn't choose sides in political arguments or even care much for politics. Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are very humanly possible states of mind that true Christians would be wise to follow in.

It's just an opportunity to really be a much better PR person for Christianity by BEING these qualities that Christ invited all to be. I'm sorry that you can't see the point I'm trying to make.

You're a "lesbo". We know all we need to know.

[Peter1469]

You're a "lesbo". We know all we need to know.


Warning stop the personal attacks.

[Mister D]

That's a personal attack? OK. It seems pretty clear she's a homosexual but OK.

[ChoppedLiver]

Christ was the epitome of love, compassion, joy and equanimity. He didn't choose sides in political arguments or even care much for politics. Love, compassion, joy and equanimity are very humanly possible states of mind that true Christians would be wise to follow in.

It's just an opportunity to really be a much better PR person for Christianity by BEING these qualities that Christ invited all to be. I'm sorry that you can't see the point I'm trying to make.

The actual point is you and your Godless liberal ilk can not and will not dictate what Christianity is and/or isn't. Your political bias doesn't allow you to do that.

:cool:

[Libhater]

That's a personal attack? OK. It seems pretty clear she's a homosexual but OK.

I agree, she has already come out and said she was a lesbo...so I don't see what the big deal is here.

[kilgram]

Spain is dying.
Thank you to Conservative and neoliberal policies.

By the way, I don't care about the future of the country where I was born. I don't care for any country. I am not nationalist.

[jillian]

That's a personal attack? OK. It seems pretty clear she's a homosexual but OK.

context is everything.... but you know that.... which is why you use what people are as an insult.

and then do the pretend game of "who? me?

[Libhater]

context is everything.... but you know that.... which is why you use what people are as an insult.

and then do the pretend game of "who? me?

Do you think calling someone a leftist is just as insulting as calling someone a lesbo? If the shoe fits....wear it with a smile.

[Philly Rabbit]

Are their any lawyers here who are America used to be a Christian nation deniers?

I'd like to ask them if there were ever any Bibles inside the courtrooms of the judicial system of the country.

[Green Arrow]

Since nobody else seems interested, I'll state it for the record:

It doesn't matter if America was a Christian nation or not. It's completely irrelevant. The principles in the constitution do not allow any one group, religious or otherwise, to rule over any others. That's really all there is to it.

America is a nation for all people, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, political views, etc. It's as simple as that.

[patrickt]

I am not a Christian and I wonder where my place would be in a Christian America? Personally, I'd just like to see a free and decent America.

[Philly Rabbit]

Since nobody else seems interested, I'll state it for the record:

It doesn't matter if America was a Christian nation or not. It's completely irrelevant. The principles in the constitution do not allow any one group, religious or otherwise, to rule over any others. That's really all there is to it.

America is a nation for all people, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, political views, etc. It's as simple as that.

A certain moral system has replaced another certain moral system for a reason that was deliberate and the old moral system did not rule over anybody as you speak in terms of government but rather it set the moral pace of the nation. I gave you some very alarming stats as to what has happened since the older moral system was replaced by the new one.

Now would you please stop referring in governmental terms when speaking of the people who make up the nation and what they used to subscribe to generally and what they do subscribe to now.

And you are being "ruled" by the new system that replaced the former system.

[Philly Rabbit]

Are their any lawyers here who are America used to be a Christian nation deniers?

I'd like to ask them if there were ever any Bibles inside the courtrooms of the judicial system of the country.


A courtroom setting is about the most secular place you could imagine. You lawyers only deal with the evidence, right? So what were the Bibles doing inside the judicial courthouses in the first place? Who in the world put them there? Who did the Bibles represent and who did the Bibles tell every governmental court official from the judge, to the prosecutor, to the defense attorney, to the clerk who was boss. Which group of individuals did the courtroom belong to as being represented by the Bibles?

[Chris]

A courtroom setting is about the most secular place you could imagine. You lawyers only deal with the evidence, right? So what were the Bibles doing inside the judicial courthouses in the first place? Who in the world put them there? Who did the Bibles represent and who did the Bibles tell every governmental court official from the judge, to the prosecutor, to the defense attorney, to the clerk who was boss. Which group of individuals did the courtroom belong to as being represented by the Bibles?


Your focus on Christianity is somewhat misleading. True, Christianity had an influence, but not uniquely.

In law, the Bible plays a part, but the Supreme Court friezes depict many other influences: On the South frieze, Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Octavian; and on the North, Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, King John, Louis IX, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, Napoleon.

Moses is Old Testament, representing Judaism, Jesus is not there to represent Christianity.

[sky dancer]

A certain moral system has replaced another certain moral system for a reason that was deliberate and the old moral system did not rule over anybody as you speak in terms of government but rather it set the moral pace of the nation. I gave you some very alarming stats as to what has happened since the older moral system was replaced by the new one.

Now would you please stop referring in governmental terms when speaking of the people who make up the nation and what they used to subscribe to generally and what they do subscribe to now.

And you are being "ruled" by the new system that replaced the former system.

We all have the same system of legal right to practice our respective religions or none at all. We have a system of laws that take care of criminal behavior.

The problem I have with SOME Christians is they want to insert their religion into law that protects non-Christians.

[Philly Rabbit]

Your focus on Christianity is somewhat misleading. True, Christianity had an influence, but not uniquely.

In law, the Bible plays a part, but the Supreme Court friezes depict many other influences: On the South frieze, Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Octavian; and on the North, Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, King John, Louis IX, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, Napoleon.

Moses is Old Testament, representing Judaism, Jesus is not there to represent Christianity.

Which people did the Bible represent inside the secular governmental judicial courtroom?

Answer: the American people

[Philly Rabbit]

We all have the same system of legal right to practice our respective religions or none at all. We have a system of laws that take care of criminal behavior.

The problem I have with SOME Christians is they want to insert their religion into law that protects non-Christians.

Christians cannot make morality out of laws. Nobody can produce morality from a law. Laws are made AGAINST IMMORALITY in order to protect the citizenry and to punish those who commit unlawful, immoral acts.

[Chris]

Which people did the Bible represent inside the secular governmental judicial courtroom?

Answer: the American people

It didn't represent anyone and you didn't respond at all to what I posted.

Most courts never required swearing on the Bible.

[sky dancer]

Christians cannot make morality out of laws. Nobody can produce morality from a law. Laws are made AGAINST IMMORALITY in order to protect the citizenry and to punish those who commit unlawful, immoral acts.
Christians certainly do legislate THEIR morality, regardless of how many other non-Christian citizens feel.

Some Christians illegally punish those they consider sinners regardless of how legal the citizens actions are.

[Chris]

Christians certainly do legislate THEIR morality, regardless of how many other non-Christian citizens feel.

Some Christians illegally punish those they consider sinners regardless of how legal the citizens actions are.

So do statists.

But most Christians I know do not want their values legislated, they want to be left alone to practice their faith and follow Jesus. That's how I see Philly, he's just rues the day when Christian values were more prevalent in our society.

[sky dancer]

So do statists.

But most Christians I know do not want their values legislated, they want to be left alone to practice their faith and follow Jesus. That's how I see Philly, he's just rues the day when Christian values were more prevalent in our society.
Too bad he doesn't rue the day when love, compassion, joy and equanimity are more prevalent in our country and society.

[Chris]

Too bad he doesn't rue the day when love, compassion, joy and equanimity are more prevalent in our country and society.

Perhaps that's exactly what he rues.

Of course, we could always turn to Miley Cyrus for a good example of modern morality.

[Green Arrow]

A certain moral system has replaced another certain moral system for a reason that was deliberate and the old moral system did not rule over anybody as you speak in terms of government but rather it set the moral pace of the nation. I gave you some very alarming stats as to what has happened since the older moral system was replaced by the new one.

Your moral system is just a rip-off of my moral system. We don't need your moral system in charge to have good morals.


Now would you please stop referring in governmental terms when speaking of the people who make up the nation and what they used to subscribe to generally and what they do subscribe to now.

I will when people of your moral system stop trying to make laws forcing me to abide by their moral system.

[Green Arrow]

So do statists.

But most Christians I know do not want their values legislated, they want to be left alone to practice their faith and follow Jesus. That's how I see Philly, he's just rues the day when Christian values were more prevalent in our society.

Except for the sticky bit where he said laws are made against immorality to punish people for their immorality.

[Philly Rabbit]

Your moral system is just a rip-off of my moral system. We don't need your moral system in charge to have good morals.



I will when people of your moral system stop trying to make laws forcing me to abide by their moral system.


Then tell me why your country is self distructing and your civilization is dying of old age?

[Green Arrow]

Then tell me why your country is self distructing and your civilization is dying of old age?

Uhm...it isn't? America isn't doing so hot, but it's hardly self-destructing. As for our "civilization," it's getting younger and younger. What are you talking about?

[Philly Rabbit]

It didn't represent anyone and you didn't respond at all to what I posted.

Most courts never required swearing on the Bible.

Yes - they - did.

And now the courts require you to swear testimony to the state because the state being the appointed judges within the judicial system now hold the moral compass of the nation and not the people and it is those judges who have taken custody of and legislate morality for the people themselves.

[Philly Rabbit]

Uhm...it isn't? America isn't doing so hot, but it's hardly self-destructing. As for our "civilization," it's getting younger and younger. What are you talking about?


The west is dying. Europe is turning into a nursing home. Westerners are not pro creating enough to maintain their own cultures and abortion and the pursuit of the good life has replaced marriage and family.

The bill is due my friends and those who scoff at this reality are themselves whistling past the graveyard. The egalitarians who demand that everybody and everything be equal have systematically replaced a culture in America which contained a religious moral base with their own secularism and their own demands of multiculturalism which has doomed the west.

The right? They are only generally interested in having a good time over sex and ball games and the egalitarianism of the left has silenced them with race cards and along with it social rejection if they do not conform and get along. Who on the right is willing to stand and fight and sacrifice as they enjoy the American version of the Roman baths and play R is good, D is bad back and forth games with their social circle friends? They talk a good game but when the weekend rolls around it's party time again.

[Chris]

Except for the sticky bit where he said laws are made against immorality to punish people for their immorality.

If laws don't have a moral basis they're probably not good laws. We punish murder, theft, fraud, because such actions are immoral. Most of these morals are universal and not just Christian of course.

[Chris]

Yes - they - did.

And now the courts require you to swear testimony to the state because the state being the appointed judges within the judicial system now hold the moral compass of the nation and not the people and it is those judges who have taken custody of and legislate morality for the people themselves.

Always been an option to affirm or promise you're telling the truth.

You still haven't responded about SCOTUS north and south friezes.

[Philly Rabbit]

Always been an option to affirm or promise you're telling the truth.

You still haven't responded about SCOTUS north and south friezes.

And you haven't answered what they, the Bibles were present within the judicial system in the first place

[Dr. Who]

And you haven't answered what they, the Bibles were present within the judicial system in the first place

The earliest English settlers in America brought over the tradition of the witness oath; after swearing the oath, witnesses were expected to kiss the Bible.

[Chris]

And you haven't answered what they, the Bibles were present within the judicial system in the first place

Jesus, that game?

[Chris]

The earliest English settlers in America brought over the tradition of the witness oath; after swearing the oath, witnesses were expected to kiss the Bible.



Which traces back to Greek and Roman law. Cicero alluded to the importance of legally binding oaths in De Officiis.

"When the Anglo-Saxon king Athelstan codified Britain's laws around A.D. 930, he included a section requiring that the sale of chattel be witnessed by a neutral third party, who would take an oath to act truthfully and in the law's best interest. The phrase "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" is believed to have initially been coined in Old English, and to have become a staple of English trials by approximately the 13th century."

@ Where Did We Get Our Oath? (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2004/04/where_did_we_get_our_oath.html)

[sky dancer]

And you haven't answered what they, the Bibles were present within the judicial system in the first place

Your signature is very telling regarding this topic.

[Philly Rabbit]

Jesus, that game?

Jesus didn't put the Bibles in the Judicial system, the American people did.

It's really amusing to see you play the egalitarian over Christianity in American society since Saturday.

[Philly Rabbit]

Except for the sticky bit where he said laws are made against immorality to punish people for their immorality.

I said "unlawful immorality." So what do you think laws are made for if you follow a value system based on moral relativism? In that case, all laws are created from religion and are designed to create morality. So under your system, which ones aren't ?

[Green Arrow]

I said "unlawful immorality." So what do you think laws are made for if you follow a value system based on moral relativism? In that case, all laws are created from religion and are designed to create morality. So under your system, which ones aren't ?

Moral relativism gets a bad rap that it doesn't deserve, but that's for a different thread. Morality is not exclusive to religion. I know plenty of moral atheists. Some of whom are even more moral than some Christians I know, believe it or not.

There is a universally recognized morality that has pre-existed virtually every religion in the world. Things like murder and theft, that directly cause harm to another person, are wrong. Period. It's that simple.

[Philly Rabbit]

Moral relativism gets a bad rap that it doesn't deserve, but that's for a different thread. Morality is not exclusive to religion. I know plenty of moral atheists. Some of whom are even more moral than some Christians I know, believe it or not.

There is a universally recognized morality that has pre-existed virtually every religion in the world. Things like murder and theft, that directly cause harm to another person, are wrong. Period. It's that simple.


Does the constitution say anything like: All religions shall be equal.

Do you know?

[Green Arrow]

Does the constitution say anything like: All religions shall be equal.

Do you know?

Yes, I do, and no, it doesn't. It does say all men are created equal and endowed with certain rights by their creator, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Does it ever establish Christianity as the national religion, and bar non-Christians from having their way?

[Philly Rabbit]

Yes, I do, and no, it doesn't. It does say all men are created equal and endowed with certain rights by their creator, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Does it ever establish Christianity as the national religion, and bar non-Christians from having their way?

The Declaration Of Independence says that.

Does the constitution say anything about equality in fact besides not saying anything about all religions being equal?

[jillian]

The Declaration Of Independence says that.

Does the constitution say anything about equality in fact besides not saying anything about all religions being equal?

the declaration of independence isn't law or enforceable.

there is nothing that says "all religions are equal"... it says govenrment needs to stay out of religion - which means religion has to stay out of government since congress can't advance any state religion -- and that means they can't legislate your beliefs.

yay!

[Chris]

The Declaration Of Independence says that.

Does the constitution say anything about equality in fact besides not saying anything about all religions being equal?



I think it's implied in the following, which again addresses oaths OR affirmations: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

IOW, it implies, as far a government goes, all religions are equal.

Whether any religion is better is left to the individual and society to decide.

[shaarona]

I think it's implied in the following, which again addresses oaths OR affirmations: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

IOW, it implies, as far a government goes, all religions are equal.

Whether any religion is better is left to the individual and society to decide.

Well done..............

[Chris]

the declaration of independence isn't law or enforceable.

there is nothing that says "all religions are equal"... it says govenrment needs to stay out of religion - which means religion has to stay out of government since congress can't advance any state religion -- and that means they can't legislate your beliefs.

yay!



The Declaration doesn't declare posited law, true, but declares higher moral law all posited law is subject to. --Well, unless you're a legal positivist.




it says govenrment needs to stay out of religion - which means religion has to stay out of government since congress can't advance any state religion

(A) "govenrment [sic] needs to stay out of religion"

(B) "religion has to stay out of government"

(A) does not imply or mean (B).

True, Congress cannot legislate, but that doesn't preclude the religious from office, invoking God, saying prayers, etc.

[Philly Rabbit]

the declaration of independence isn't law or enforceable.

there is nothing that says "all religions are equal"... it says govenrment needs to stay out of religion - which means religion has to stay out of government since congress can't advance any state religion -- and that means they can't legislate your beliefs.

yay!

Why doesn't the constitution say that all religions shall be equal?

........... or does it?

[jillian]

Well done..............

it doesn't imply they're equal... it implies they're not relevant to whether or not someone is qualified for public office.

[shaarona]

it doesn't imply they're equal... it implies they're not relevant to whether or not someone is qualified for public office.

I know what it means.. I can read. I am pleased he posted it.

[Philly Rabbit]

I think it's implied in the following, which again addresses oaths OR affirmations: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

IOW, it implies, as far a government goes, all religions are equal.

Whether any religion is better is left to the individual and society to decide.

Does the constitution say anything about equality at all?

.......... let alone equality of religions?

[Chris]

it doesn't imply they're equal... it implies they're not relevant to whether or not someone is qualified for public office.

Thus they are treated equally. Put any negative spin you like on it.

[Chris]

Does the constitution say anything about equality at all?

.......... let alone equality of religions?



Answered.

[Philly Rabbit]

it doesn't imply they're equal... it implies they're not relevant to whether or not someone is qualified for public office.

It doesn't say ANYTHING about religions being equal. In fact, it doesn't say anything about anything being equal.

Now why is that?

[Chris]

It doesn't say ANYTHING about religions being equal. In fact, it doesn't say anything about anything being equal.

Now why is that?

Because the Constitution is secular and not religious.

[Philly Rabbit]

Answered.

No you didn't provide an answer. Does the word EQUAL even appear anywhere in the constitution?

[Chris]

No you didn't provide an answer. Does the word EQUAL even appear anywhere in the constitution?



Right, I didn't answer to your peculiar word-matching approval. So what.


Does the word God appear in the Constitution?

[Philly Rabbit]

Because the Constitution is secular and not religious.

Are you still on the, you want a religious theocracy kick?

You do understand that you are living under a secular theocracy, don't you?

[jillian]

Are you still on the, you want a religious theocracy kick?

You do understand that you are living under a secular theocracy, don't you?

there is no such thing as a "secular theocracy".. the terms are mutually exclusive.

[Chris]

Are you still on the, you want a religious theocracy kick?

You do understand that you are living under a secular theocracy, don't you?



You're confusing me with jillian, philly, PLEASE don't do that. :shocked:


"secular theocracy" is an oxymoron.

[Philly Rabbit]

Right, I didn't answer to your peculiar word-matching approval. So what.


Does the word God appear in the Constitution?

If all religions are equal, can there be religious freedom?

Is this why the founders never declared that all religions are equal?

........ or did they forget to do it and the egalitarians did it for them?

[jillian]

You're confusing me with jillian, philly, PLEASE don't do that. :shocked:


"secular theocracy" is an oxymoron.

how is that "confusing" us?

i said the same thing. congratulations you were correct about a matter involving the constitution.

[Mister D]

how is that "confusing" us?

i said the same thing. congratulations you were correct about a matter involving the constitution.


Are you still on the, you want a religious theocracy kick?

You are one of two "nutters" frightened by fringe theocrats. Chris isn't fearful of theocrats. You are. Understand now?

[jillian]

You are one of two "nutters" frightened by fringe theocrats. Chris is fearful of theocrats. You are. Understand now?

stop blathering...

[Mister D]

stop blathering...

Is that all you've got? lol

[Mister D]

Look out jillian ! The theocrats are coming and they're not selling Hanukkah trinkets! :shocked: :grin:

[Philly Rabbit]

how is that "confusing" us?

i said the same thing. congratulations you were correct about a matter involving the constitution.

Can you tell me why the constitution doesn't say anything about equality?

When everything in society is equal, how then can there be freedom?

When all religions are equal, how can there then be first amendment protected free religious expression?

[shaarona]

Can you tell me why the constitution doesn't say anything about equality?

When everything in society is equal, how then can there be freedom?

When all religions are equal, how can there then be first amendment protected free religious expression?

Good God.. You'll never get it....