Republican brilliance on display

[Ravi]

"We’re not going to be disrespected,” Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-IN) told the Washington Examiner. (http://washingtonexaminer.com/gop-stands-firm-against-funding-bill-will-link-to-debt-ceiling-fight/article/2536750) “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-says-he-doesn-t-know-what-republicans-want-in-shutdown-fight

:laugh:

Maybe a cookie would make him happy.

[Common]

They dont know, all they know is ted cruz said to shut it down. Teaparty activists even made shutdown songs before the actual shutdown, it was all planned to shut down the govt and it didnt matter if they had a realistic reason or not.

[Agravan]

They dont know, all they know is ted cruz said to shut it down. Teaparty activists even made shutdown songs before the actual shutdown, it was all planned to shut down the govt and it didnt matter if they had a realistic reason or not.
Once again, Democrats caused this and they have the power to end the shutdown anytime they want if they cared about it. But they will not even negotiate it, so it's on them.

[Common]

Once again, Democrats caused this and they have the power to end the shutdown anytime they want if they cared about it. But they will not even negotiate it, so it's on them.


Agravan the gop refused budget talks 18 times prior to the shutdown, they only wanted to talk to make a splash after the shutdown.
The majority of america rightfully disagrees with you on this

[Agravan]

Agravan the gop refused budget talks 18 times prior to the shutdown, they only wanted to talk to make a splash after the shutdown.
The majority of america rightfully disagrees with you on this
This from the major media outlets in the country. The same ones that are in the tank for Obama. Please forgive me if I take anything they say with a grain of salt. I know you believe them but then, you seem to be one of those that believe every negative stereotypes of the GOP and conservatives that the left can come up with.

[Ravi]

Rep. Todd Rotika (R-IN) got into a heated exchange with "CNN Newsroom" host Carol Costello Thursday over whether health care reform should be part of debate on the federal government's budget.
"Carol, do you have any idea how much this law is going to cost?" Rotika said of Obamacare. "It's an insidious law because it's a lie. It says it's going to be affordable."
"Do you know how much it costs every day the government is partially shut down?" Costello responded. "You are costing taxpayers millions of dollars."
The two repeated their positions on the issue until Rotika said "we keep going in circles."
"You're part of the problem, the media is part of the problem," Rokita said.
"Come on, that's so easy. That's so easy," Costello protested.
"Carol, you're beautiful but you have to be honest as well," Rokita said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-rep-spars-with-cnn-host-you-re-beautiful-but-you-have-to-be-honest-video

^These idiots just don't stop being idiots.

[Alyosha]

I'm glad to be a libertarian. I can never be accused of double standards or inconsistency. It's good to be us. :)

Carry on with the ironic fighting over who's more wrong, the party that rammed Obamacare through without a single Republican "yes" or the party that rammed the budget through without Democrat support.

Hahaha. Partisans.

[Chris]

At least your vocabulary is improving. Yesterday it was "clowns." Today it is sarcastic "brilliance." But then you stoop to "idiots."

Very astute.

[Alyosha]

At least your vocabulary is improving. Yesterday it was "clowns." Today it is sarcastic "brilliance." But then you stoop to "idiots."

Very astute.

Well, when ya got nothing insults and sarcasm seem a good substitute for defending a position.

[Chris]

Well, when ya got nothing insults and sarcasm seem a good substitute for defending a position.

More like for defending the indefensible.

[Ravi]

Still more:


Neugebauer asked the Ranger how she could turn World War II veterans away.

"How do you look at them and…deny them access?" the congressman asked.
"It's difficult," she responded.
"Well, it should be difficult," Neugebauer snapped.
"It is difficult," the Ranger said. "I'm sorry sir."
"The Park Service should be ashamed of themselves," Neugebauer said.
"I'm not ashamed," the Ranger said.
Members of the crowd then chimed in. One person shouted "This woman is doing her job, just like me."
"I'm a 30-year federal veteran -- I'm out of work," the man continued.
"Well, the reason you are is because [Senate Majority Leader Harry] Reid decided to shutdown the government," Neugebauer said.
"No, it's because the government won't do its job and pass a budget," the man responded.



http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-confronts-park-ranger

[Chris]

Still more:



http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-confronts-park-ranger



"No, it's because the government won't do its job and pass a budget," the man responded.

That's nonpartisan and doesn't support your partisan hackery.

[GrassrootsConservative]

They dont know, all they know is ted cruz said to shut it down. Teaparty activists even made shutdown songs before the actual shutdown, it was all planned to shut down the govt and it didnt matter if they had a realistic reason or not.
Waaaaaah waaaaah Common's not getting his free stuff. Boo hoo hoo, let's all feel sorry for him and his government shutdown. It most be so shitty to get promised a bunch of free stuff and then not get it when you DEPEND on the government instead of making your own way.

:grin: Keep going Liberals. This shit is mad funny. Obama has brought CHANGE at last!

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16972-Government-Dependents-Squealing-For-Their-Government-To-Stay

When CHILDREN become such an age, you have to remove them from the dole eventually. That's part of life. Live with it. Or you can keep bitching. It will be funny either way, I'm sure.

[jillian]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-says-he-doesn-t-know-what-republicans-want-in-shutdown-fight

:laugh:

Maybe a cookie would make him happy.

did he stamp his widdle feet when he said it?

[Alyosha]

Via the Free Beacon (http://freebeacon.com/reid-why-would-we-want-to-help-one-kid-with-cancer/), what’s the most amazing thing about this? That Reid gets a variation of the “why do you hate children?” question that’s typically reserved for Republicans? Or that he actually responds, when asked if he’ll agree to the House’s new bill to fund NIH (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/house-hold-do-over-vote-national-parks-veterans-dc) in the name of keeping clinical trials for kids with cancer (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/10/01/federal-shutdown-to-hamper-disease-tracking-clinical-trials/) up and running, “Why would we want to do that?”


Am I awake?


Remember, both he and Obama already approved a House bill on Monday that made sure troops would continue to get paid (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/government-shutdown-senate-sends-obama-military-pay-bill-97582.html) during the shutdown. They’re not opposed to small, targeted, piecemeal bills in principle, in other words; they’ve already showed that, if the politics of saying no are sufficiently toxic, they’ll agree to fund federal agencies whose sustained deprivation would lead to egregious outcomes. In fact, the core Democratic message about the GOP is that, in opposing ObamaCare, they’re trying to deny uninsured Americans treatment for their illnesses. So here’s Boehner and the House caucus trying to counter that with the same sort of piecemeal bill that Senate Democrats already passed two days ago, and Reid decides that maintaining his “no negotiation” posture is worth telling cancer patients to chillax for awhile. Either he’s really committed to not giving an inch or he’s betting big that the media won’t punish him for taking this position. Normally I’d say that’s a smart bet, but the fact that CNN is asking this question at all makes me wonder.

Update: Indeed.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/10/02/harry-reid-no-we-wont-agree-to-fund-nih-in-order-to-restart-treatment-for-kids-with-cancer/

Yessssss, brilliance.

Do continue with the hyper-partisan double standards.

[Venus]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke


President Obama, Libertarian? (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)
By Charles C. W. Cooke (http://www.nationalreview.com/author/charles-c-w-cooke)
October 3, 2013 12:02 PM (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)




During his speech today, the president said something rather strange. “If a worker shut down a manufacturing plant until they got what they wanted, they’d be fired,” Obama shouted.

In a free market, this would be true because the worker would be able to be fired for breach of contract or what you will. But, in most circumstances in America, it is not true because laws that the president supports term this a “strike” and prevent the business owner from getting rid of the offending worker.

Are we to presume that the president doesn’t know this, or that he is about to announce a conversion to the dark side and come out as as libertarian?


http://youtu.be/HEHKBqlpYwM

[GrassrootsConservative]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke


President Obama, Libertarian? (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)
By Charles C. W. Cooke (http://www.nationalreview.com/author/charles-c-w-cooke)
October 3, 2013 12:02 PM (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)






http://youtu.be/HEHKBqlpYwM

So he knows he and his anti-American Liberal Democrat cohorts should be fired for shutting down "the factory?"

Why doesn't he just do the right thing and resign?

[Venus]

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/10/02/obamacares-national-hotline-1-800-f-you/


Obamacare’s National Hotline? 1-800-F…You


Sometimes, you just have to laugh. Yesterday, HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius made the MSM blitz by announcing the website, glitches and all, and the national call-in center, which is 1-800-318-2596. Now to make this work, you have to skip the 1, because on a phone keypad, no letters are assigned to the number 1. But spell out the rest, and this is what you get.
1-800-3(F) 8(U) 2(C) 5(K) 9(Y) 6(O).
Tragically, the federal government, with all their power, couldn’t trade the 1 out for another 8 at the end. Then, the President’s true sentiment towards all of you would be much plainer.
Then again, they’ve really never been that subtle, have they?


LOLOLOLOL

[Alyosha]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke


President Obama, Libertarian? (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)
By Charles C. W. Cooke (http://www.nationalreview.com/author/charles-c-w-cooke)
October 3, 2013 12:02 PM (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360298/president-obama-libertarian-charles-c-w-cooke)






http://youtu.be/HEHKBqlpYwM


Fire workers that shut down a plant! GASP!


HAHAHAHAHAHA


This is why I love and hate Democrats. They are like the rulers of the double standard, the most inconsistent people on the planet.

[Venus]

Fire workers that shut down a plant! GASP!


HAHAHAHAHAHA


This is why I love and hate Democrats. They are like the rulers of the double standard, the most inconsistent people on the planet.

Someone needs to tell the unions that Obama has not only screwed them over on healthcare insurance but negotiation tactics as well.


LOLOLOLOL

[Venus]

This thread should be retitled

Democratic brilliance on display

[nic34]

Waaaaaah waaaaah Common's not getting his free stuff. Boo hoo hoo, let's all feel sorry for him and his government shutdown. It most be so shitty to get promised a bunch of free stuff and then not get it when you DEPEND on the government instead of making your own way.

:grin: Keep going Liberals. This shit is mad funny. Obama has brought CHANGE at last!

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16972-Government-Dependents-Squealing-For-Their-Government-To-Stay

When CHILDREN become such an age, you have to remove them from the dole eventually. That's part of life. Live with it. Or you can keep bitching. It will be funny either way, I'm sure.

You have to DEPEND on the govt just to post here.

[Alyosha]

You have to DEPEND on the govt just to post here.

Really? Why is that?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444464304577539063008406518.html

If the government didn't invent the Internet, who did? Vinton Cerf developed the TCP/IP protocol, the Internet's backbone, and Tim Berners-Lee gets credit for hyperlinks.
Enlarge Image


http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AP522_crovit_D_20120722110859.jpghttp://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AP522_crovit_G_20120722110859.jpg


Xerox PARC Xerox PARC headquarters.



But full credit goes to the company where Mr. Taylor worked after leaving ARPA: Xerox. It was at the Xerox PARC labs in Silicon Valley in the 1970s that the Ethernet was developed to link different computer networks. Researchers there also developed the first personal computer (the Xerox Alto) and the graphical user interface that still drives computer usage today.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You have to DEPEND on the govt just to post here.

Lol? Explain this.

[nic34]

Where do you all think you get your electricity and how does it safely get to your devices?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Where do you all think you get your electricity and how does it safely get to your devices?

I buy it. Not sure what you're getting at here.

[Venus]

I buy it. Not sure what you're getting at here.


And if I don't pay my bill, it's shut off.

Not sure how I'm DEPENDing on the government for electricity.

[Alyosha]

Where do you all think you get your electricity and how does it safely get to your devices?

A private electric cooperative owned by a community of private citizens. How do you get yours?

[GrassrootsConservative]

And if I don't pay my bill, it's shut off.

Not sure how I'm DEPENDing on the government for electricity.

Liberals have a funny way of looking at things. I think he has the definition of "depend" wrong. Even if my electricity DID come from the government, I'm still not "depending" on it.

[Chris]

This thread should be retitled

Democratic brilliance on display



Do you mean it's hoisted its own petard?

[Chris]

You have to DEPEND on the govt just to post here.



From the fact government provides this it does not follow it is the only entity that can provide it. Monkey's can ride bicycles, doesn't mean only monkeys can.

In fact government only provides a part, business provides most.

[nic34]

A private electric cooperative owned by a community of private citizens. How do you get yours?

... that is transported along public transmission and distribution lines....
What, you think you have your own grid? Your own manufacturing and safety standards.... your own educational and training infrastructure..... your own national electrical code....? Please.....

[nic34]

In fact government only provides a part, business provides most.

You have it backward.... even business needs government to contract with, they are not going to recreate an existing infrastructure.

[jillian]

A private electric cooperative owned by a community of private citizens. How do you get yours?

and that might be great if you live where there are ten people.

not so much when you live in a real live city

[Ravi]

and that might be great if you live where there are ten people.

not so much when you live in a real live city
Maybe the ten people also own and operate and provide infrastructure for their very own world wide web.

;)

[Chris]

You have it backward.... even business needs government to contract with, they are not going to recreate an existing infrastructure.

Business built it, nic. Government's lucky it can repair potholes without 25 workers, 62 supervisors, 16 safety observers, 3 union mn....


Again, just because government provides something doesn't mean only government can. Your logic is flawed.

[Alyosha]

... that is transported along public transmission and distribution lines....
What, you think you have your own grid? Your own manufacturing and safety standards.... your own educational and training infrastructure..... your own national electrical code....? Please.....

Actually, my cooperative built its own infrastructure, and as for the rest do explain where the taxes come from which enables the government to "do" things and then tell me who needs whom?

:)

When the government generates a bake sale to support all of these programs instead of using our money then you can make this argument.

[jillian]

Maybe the ten people also own and operate and provide infrastructure for their very own world wide web.

;)


and roads
and water supply
and air traffic control
and police
and firefighters
and schools
and trains
and buses
and make sure food isn't tainted
and make sure that no one is dumping petrochemicals into their water supply

etc
etc
etc

i think the problem with the extreme right is they seem to have this idea that we still live in a world where you just go find a piece of land and settle and use your shotgun to fend off the bad guys.

[GrassrootsConservative]

and roads
and water supply
and air traffic control
and police
and firefighters
and schools
and trains
and buses
and make sure food isn't tainted
and make sure that no one is dumping petrochemicals into their water supply

etc
etc
etc

i think the problem with the extreme right is they seem to have this idea that we still live in a world where you just go find a piece of land and settle and use your shotgun to fend off the bad guys.


and make sure food isn't tainted

Yeah it's a good thing we don't have thousands of cases of food poisoning a year. :rollseyes: The government does a shitty job with almost all of this stuff.

[Alyosha]

and that might be great if you live where there are ten people.

not so much when you live in a real live city

Why Jillian there are tens of thousands in this electric cooperative and there are other ones like them across the country. There have always been electric cooperatives, and they predated public ones (including built the infrastructure the public ones required).



When Thomas Edison opened the first central generating station on Pearl Street in New York City in 1882, it created new hope and vision for Americans. The hope was to realize an increase in the productivity of labor by lightening the drudgery of farms while revolutionizing factories and to give people more leisure time from jobs and chores to enjoy life by mechanizing daily life. These were the dreams of the people, and these were the dreams that were controlled by private utility monopolies or power trusts as they were called. By 1928, 80 percent of the nation's electric energy was generated and controlled by 16 large holding companies. Public utility commissions were set up to provide control but were unsuccessful. The alternative seemed to be the public ownership of electric utilities.


http://lcecnet.coopwebbuilder.com/sites/lcecnet.coopwebbuilder.com/files/page-images/oldpic.jpg Things began to change when Franklin Roosevelt assumed office in 1933. While the President believed that private ownership had a place in the American economic system, he also felt that people should have a choice of public control if dissatisfied with the operations of the private utilities. The Rural Electrification Administration (REA) was a department of the United States federal government created on May 11, 1935 through efforts of the administration of President Roosevelt. The REA's task was to promote electrification in unserved rural areas due to the cost of stringing electric lines in sparsely populated rural areas. Many were critical of the decision, in particular private electricity utilities, who argued that the government had no right to compete with private enterprise even though they refused to serve those areas. By 1939, the REA served 288,000 rural households with electricity prompting private business to extend their services into the countryside as well. By the end of the decade, a quarter of rural homes had power, up from around 10% in 1930.



http://lcecnet.coopwebbuilder.com/content/electric-cooperatives


Roosevelt decided, as you can see, that people needed choice and now we have a mix of public and private cooperatives. You should like that, now we have public, purely private, and private cooperatives.

[Alyosha]

and roads
and water supply
and air traffic control
and police
and firefighters
and schools
and trains
and buses
and make sure food isn't tainted
and make sure that no one is dumping petrochemicals into their water supply

etc
etc
etc

i think the problem with the extreme right is they seem to have this idea that we still live in a world where you just go find a piece of land and settle and use your shotgun to fend off the bad guys.

Why do you believe that only public employees can do those things? Do you have a valid reason? Note I asked "can". I don't want to hear "because they won't". That's a supposition.

I asked, why can't private citizens do those things?

[nic34]

and trade laws
and access to the courts
and air polluters

etc
etc
etc
.
.
.
.

[nic34]

I asked, why can't private citizens do those things?

They become civil servants and .... do.

[Chris]

Why do you believe that only public employees can do those things? Do you have a valid reason? Note I asked "can". I don't want to hear "because they won't". That's a supposition.

I asked, why can't private citizens do those things?

Exactly. Progressives assume it without being able to justify their belief.

That is why I call statism a religion.

[Alyosha]

They become civil servants and .... do.

Detroit citizens pooled money to hire a private police force. They are also currently providing grounds services for all their parks. They are growing community gardens.

They are doing things because their city government is in bankruptcy, so forgive me if I have to question your knowledge on what private citizens can and will do.

Not only can they do it, but obviously with greater efficiency.

[jillian]

Why do you believe that only public employees can do those things? Do you have a valid reason? Note I asked "can". I don't want to hear "because they won't". That's a supposition.

I asked, why can't private citizens do those things?

for the reasons i stated. your concepts are idealistic and interesting, and in a small setting where the community knows each other, it's quite nice (like a kibbutz).

things like that don't work where there are large populations of unconnected people.

and, frankly, it isn't the system we live under.

you want to change the system, do it from within the system and see if you have support.

you won't... and, ultimately, that's the point.

[GrassrootsConservative]

They become civil servants and .... do.

She said no suppositions.

[Alyosha]

for the reasons i stated. your concepts are idealistic and interesting, and in a small setting where the community knows each other, it's quite nice (like a kibbutz).

Which is why "federalism" was the Founders choice for us.




things like that don't work where there are large populations of unconnected people.


Detroit's attempting this right now and from what people there are telling me they're doing pretty good.



and, frankly, it isn't the system we live under.

you want to change the system, do it from within the system and see if you have support.


Wellllllll...what do you think the Ron Paul revolution was?



you won't... and, ultimately, that's the point.


You sure about that? You realize that people may age and younger are becoming increasingly jaded and anti-state. Technology is what is bringing people to the realization that some risk is acceptable and government is not always necessary.

The Smartphone app, for example which turns individual's cars into taxis or "kitchen.ly" where any home can be a restaurant.

This stuff will only increase as technology grows.

[patrickt]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-says-he-doesn-t-know-what-republicans-want-in-shutdown-fight

:laugh:

Maybe a cookie would make him happy.

Poor Ravi. It's tough when you're in love with President "I won't negotiate" Obama.

[nic34]

Nah, it's tougher when you're in love with a do-nothing congress.....

[GrassrootsConservative]

Nah, it's tougher when you're in love with a do-nothing congress.....

It's MUCH tougher when you're in love with the do-even-more-nothing senate Democrats.

[zelmo1234]

Where do you all think you get your electricity and how does it safely get to your devices?

WOW! The Brainwashing is strong with this one!

Ifn MI Detroit Edison, Consumers Power and DTE

We don't have a Federal Government electric company, and if you look on your bill, you see a fee for line maintenance

[GrassrootsConservative]

WOW! The Brainwashing is strong with this one!

Indeed. That's that indoctrination. Thinks his electricity comes from the government.

:biglaugh: Wouldn't it suck if it did though?

[nic34]

Indeed. That's that indoctrination. Thinks his electricity comes from the government.

:biglaugh: Wouldn't it suck if it did though?


You get your electricity through various local, state and federal infrastructure, standards and regulations.


Get an education before you post about this stuff sonny....

[peoshi]

You get your electricity through various local, state and federal infrastructure, standards and regulations.


Get an education before you post about this stuff sonny....I get my electricity from a co-op, they built their own infrastructure and apparently are in compliance with any state or federal regulations already...do you really think a government shutdown is going to affect me getting electricity?

Follow your own advice,sonny.

:rollseyes:

[AmazonTania]

Again, I really don't know how smart someone can possibly be if they get their news from a source called 'talking points memo.'

Sounds like the go-to source for a complete drone...

[AmazonTania]

Where do you all think you get your electricity and how does it safely get to your devices?

Underwriters Laboratories certifies electronic devices for safely, and most building codes are required to have their seal of approval.

They're not a government agency.

[Chris]

No kidding, Stink Progress is so much more intellectual. :-P

[patrickt]

When I lived in the U.S. we got our electricity from a local utility that had to fight with the federal government. I don't suppose Nic has heard that President Obama has promised to bankrupt the coal companies and coal fueled power stations are being taken off line. Poor, Nic. He's really stuck on the "You didn't build that" meme and thinks he owes his daily bread to the Anointed One.

[Chris]

Nic confuses society which did build it, all this, with government that drains that power like a parasite from society.

[jillian]

Nic confuses society which did build it, all this, with government that drains that power like a parasite from society.

so society wrote the checks?

[Codename Section]

so society wrote the checks?

Technically government held the gun and made us write them, else most of us probably wouldn't. Government --outside of the Post Office--doesn't earn money. It derives money from taxes.

[Chris]

so society wrote the checks?

First it generated the wealth. Then government took it from society. You are aware that government doesn't produce anything that generates wealth, don't you?

[Chris]

Technically government held the gun and made the write them, else most of us probably wouldn't. Government --outside of the Post Office--doesn't earn money. It derives money from taxes.


Damn, should've looked before I posted, you'd already answered.

BTW, USPS just defaulted on $5.6 billion debt yesterday.

[jillian]

Yeah it's a good thing we don't have thousands of cases of food poisoning a year. :rollseyes: The government does a shitty job with almost all of this stuff.

yeah, imagine what it would be if there wasn't oversight.

(and the wingers could stop cutting oversight agencies).

[jillian]

Technically government held the gun and made us write them, else most of us probably wouldn't. Government --outside of the Post Office--doesn't earn money. It derives money from taxes.

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.

[Ravi]

for the reasons i stated. your concepts are idealistic and interesting, and in a small setting where the community knows each other, it's quite nice (like a kibbutz).

things like that don't work where there are large populations of unconnected people.

and, frankly, it isn't the system we live under.

you want to change the system, do it from within the system and see if you have support.

you won't... and, ultimately, that's the point.

It's funny. What they are advocating is the kissing cousin of socialism, everything is owned by the people. But tomorrow they'll post that socialism is evil. A real head scratcher.

[countryboy]

and that might be great if you live where there are ten people.

not so much when you live in a real live city
Why do liberals feel the need to open their mouths even when they know full well they have no idea whatsoever what they are talking about?

[countryboy]

for the reasons i stated. your concepts are idealistic and interesting, and in a small setting where the community knows each other, it's quite nice (like a kibbutz).

things like that don't work where there are large populations of unconnected people.


You've already had this explained to you, and yet you continue with the snarky, uninformed tone. Why is that? WTF is your problem? Why is it libs can't ever admit they were wrong, apologize, and move on? No, instead, even when they are proven wrong (which is early and often), they forge ahead as if they didn't even notice.

Soooo fucking pathetic.

[Mainecoons]

If Jillian had to admit it every time she was wrong on this board, she wouldn't have time to post all that partisan hackery.

[Agravan]

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.
But the government is???

[Mainecoons]

Yes they are. They take very good care of themselves and their fellow government parasites.

Haven't you noticed?

[Chris]

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.

Actually, being social animals we are altruistic, even if the only way that happens is through self-interest.

But man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren, and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only. He will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self-love in his favour, and shew them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. Whoever offers to another a bargain of any kind, proposes to do this. Give me that which I want, and you shall have this which you want, is the meaning of every such offer; and it is in this manner that we obtain from one another the far greater part of those good offices which we stand in need of. It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity, but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages.
~Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

[Chris]

It's funny. What they are advocating is the kissing cousin of socialism, everything is owned by the people. But tomorrow they'll post that socialism is evil. A real head scratcher.

Actually, that's only true for voluntarists who are also socialists, like green arrow. Voluntarists can also be free-market capitalists, as I believe the case is for Alyosha. Voluntarism is a political position that doesn't define an economic position. Voluntarism is opposed to statist positions like modern liberalism, progressivism.

In the following Nolan chart you could easily substitute libertarianism for volunterism:

http://i.snag.gy/EL9ML.jpg

[Alyosha]

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.
jillian

science disagrees with you:

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Warneken&Tomasello_2009b.pdf

^^Really good research article
http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/08/is-human-nature-fundamentally-selfish-or-altruistic/


Fundamental tendencies toward altruism aren’t only seen in children, either. Worldwide, the aftermath of natural disasters are typically characterized by heroism and a sharing of resources — within the affected community and in others farther way — not selfish panics. During the terrorist attacks of 9/11, for example, there were no accounts of people being trampled rushing out of the World Trade Center towers; rather, those who needed assistance descending were cared for, and calm mainly prevailed. The same occurred (http://healthland.time.com/2011/03/23/altruism-in-action-japanese-surfer-hero-rescues-his-wife-mother-and-others/) after the earthquake, tsunami and nuclear meltdown in Japan in 2011. The cases in which people stampede or look out only for themselves tend to be rare and involve very specific circumstances that mitigate against helpfulness.

Moreover, our stress (http://topics.time.com/stress/) systems themselves seem to be designed to connect us to others. They calm down when we are feeling close to people we care about — whether related to us or not — and spike during isolation and loneliness. Even short periods of solitary confinement can derange the mind and damage the body because of the stress they create. And having no social support can be as destructive to health as cigarette smoking.






Even after the government forcibly takes our money, Americans still give to charity.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html


Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.



If many conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, Brooks, a registered independent, is, as a reviewer of his book said, a social scientist who has been mugged by data. They include these findings:


-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).


-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.



You have no idea what we could accomplish without government in the modern era with technology and an extensive history of lessons learned behind us. To say that humans cannot do this without government is like saying a black man could never be president or a woman because they never have in the past.

People who are angry that they lose 33-46% of their labor to taxes are not necessarily anti-charity or anti-communitarian. They are angry that it was forcibly taken.

I always hear the dustbowl and the Great Depression as why we need government, disregarding that government had a lot to do with both of those conditions in the first place.

If I break a vase and then put it back together I'm not miracle worker nor do I deserve praise for fixing what I destroyed in the first place.

[Chris]

jillian

science disagrees with you:

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/pdfs/Warneken&Tomasello_2009b.pdf

^^Really good research article
http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/08/is-human-nature-fundamentally-selfish-or-altruistic/



....


This is true even for animals and insects and primitive man. The very basis of altruism is division of labor and trade. Division allows specialization of skills, calls for trade, which brings not just wealth but knowledge for further division and specialization, which in turn calls for more trade.

Matt Ridley examines this in The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation, and is ecstatic about it in The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves.

[Ravi]

Arizona state Rep. Brenda Barton (R) issued a statement (http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=bbb7dc0efb9930b8261f09478&id=50f2a0927b&e=f75cb2e50b) on Wednesday denying that a recent Facebook post in which she described President Obama as "de Fuhrer" (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-rages-against-de-fuhrer-obama-in-angry-facebook-post) was a reference to Adolf Hitler.
Barton initially stood by the post she wrote Monday (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-stands-by-facebook-post-likening-obama-to-hitler) in which she misspelled the German phrase most commonly associated with Adolf Hitler. However, on Wednesday, Barton issued a statement in order to "clarify that I never used the word or said that President Obama was 'Hitler.'"

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-issues-statement-clarifying-de-fuhrer-obama-facebook-post

[Alyosha]

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.

Which is why statism doesn't work, either, because if most people aren't altruists and you give them unlimited power they only start wars, enslave brown skinned people, create laws so they can never be freed, have their thugs courts uphold it, abuse women, all while making money for themselves and their friends.

This

http://blog.heartland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Founding-Fathers-I-5135.jpg


Always turns into this eventually

http://havecoffeewillwrite.com/wp-content/2012/occupy-120802.jpg

[Alyosha]

Arizona state Rep. Brenda Barton (R) issued a statement (http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=bbb7dc0efb9930b8261f09478&id=50f2a0927b&e=f75cb2e50b) on Wednesday denying that a recent Facebook post in which she described President Obama as "de Fuhrer" (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-rages-against-de-fuhrer-obama-in-angry-facebook-post) was a reference to Adolf Hitler.
Barton initially stood by the post she wrote Monday (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-stands-by-facebook-post-likening-obama-to-hitler) in which she misspelled the German phrase most commonly associated with Adolf Hitler. However, on Wednesday, Barton issued a statement in order to "clarify that I never used the word or said that President Obama was 'Hitler.'"

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/arizona-lawmaker-issues-statement-clarifying-de-fuhrer-obama-facebook-post

Wow, Ravi

she's a pussy. Obama is one year away from being the next Stalin.


http://images.catholic.org/ins_news/2013093113fis-p.jpg

http://www.gongfugirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/soviet_poster.jpg


http://media.tumblr.com/1a6c81008e2c78fa124ba2994546deae/tumblr_inline_mjepf5HiuL1qz4rgp.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xWSw1vXRjqk/TvO807FKZ5I/AAAAAAAAPu8/iZPJT2rHCRo/s320/obama_ndaa.jpg


No torture; defiance of FISA; no military commissions Q: Is there any executive power the Bush administration has claimed or exercised that you think is unconstitutional?A: I reject the view that the President may do whatever he deems necessary to protect national security, and that he may torture people in defiance of congressional enactments. I reject the use of signing statements to make extreme and implausible claims of presidential authority. Some further points:


The detention of American citizens, without access to counsel, fair procedure, or pursuant to judicial authorization, as enemy combatants is unconstitutional.
Warrantless surveillance of American citizens, in defiance of FISA, is unlawful and unconstitutional.
The violation of international treaties that have been ratified by the Senate, specifically the Geneva Conventions, was illegal (as the Supreme Court held) and a bad idea.
The creation of military commissions, without congressional authorization, was unlawful (as the Supreme Court held) and a bad idea.

Source: Boston Globe questionnaire on Executive Power (http://www.ontheissues.org/2007_Exec_Power.htm) Dec 20, 2007
Restore habeas corpus to reach Muslims abroad If you were a Muslim overseas listening to Rudy Giuliani say “they are coming here to try to kill you,” which is the tenor of many of the speeches that are delivered by Republicans, you would get an impression that they are not interested in talking and resolving issues peacefully. Now, what we need to do [to reach Muslims] is we need to close Guantanamo. We need to restore habeas corpus. We need to send a strong signal that we are going to talk directly to not just our friends but also to our enemies. Source: 2007 Democratic radio debate on NPR Dec 13, 2007
Human rights and national security are complementary Q: Is human rights more important than American national security?A: The concepts are not contradictory, but complementary. Pakistan is a great example. We paid $10 billion over the last seven years & we had two goals: deal with terrorism and restore democracy. We’ve gotten neither. Pakistan’s democracy would strengthen our battle against extremists. The more we see repression, the more there are no outlets for how people can express themselves and their aspirations, the worse off we’re going to be, and the more anti-American sentiment there’s going to be in the Middle East. We keep on making this mistake. As president, I will make sure that nuclear weapons don’t fall into the hands of extremists, especially Al Qaida. If we simply prop up anti-democratic practices that feeds the sense that the US is only concerned about us and that our fates are not tied to these other folks. That’s going to make us less safe. That’s something I intend to change.
Source: 2007 Democratic debate in Las Vegas, Nevada (http://www.ontheissues.org/2007_Dems_Las_Vegas.htm) Nov 15, 2007
Don’t allow our politics to be driven by fear of terrorism A statement most Democrats will make only in progressive precincts, the one he couldn’t quite get out when asked what he would do if American cities were attacked: “The threat that we face now is nowhere near as dire as it was in the Cold War. We shouldn’t allow our politics to be driven by the fear of terrorism.” Source: The Contenders, by Laura Flanders, p. 82 Nov 11, 2007

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Homeland_Security.htm


Yep, he's a real man of the Constitution.

[Chris]

Which is why statism doesn't work, either, because if most people aren't altruists and you give them unlimited power they only start wars, enslave brown skinned people, create laws so they can never be freed, have their thugs courts uphold it, abuse women, all while making money for themselves and their friends.

...




Actually, the fact we're not altruists but self-interested is the reason voluntaryism (libertarianism) would work better than statism.

[Chris]

Obama is one year away from being the next Stalin.

Nah, Hilter and Naziism/Fascism is the more appropriate metaphor to compare social democracy with its rampant corporatism.

[Alyosha]

Nah, Hilter and Naziism/Fascism is the more appropriate metaphor to compare social democracy with its rampant corporatism.

Do you remember when he was going to allegedly stop this?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PVyDmTkfk6s/TOHnQo9ncGI/AAAAAAAAEBI/-rJMBW0Epes/s400/tsa.jpg

And when Democrats cared about this:

http://www.bluebloggin.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/kinggeorge.jpg

And pretended it wasn't partisan and that they would always care about this:

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kid-drone.jpg

[Green Arrow]

and that might be great if you live where there are ten people.

not so much when you live in a real live city

And what's so great about living in a "real live city," where people are foisted on top of one another, millions packed in like sardines, with rampant crime BECAUSE so many people are forced together?

[Alyosha]

http://altnewschannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/480028_435626763219935_1796327696_n.jpg

[Green Arrow]

Nah, it's tougher when you're in love with a do-nothing congress.....

You DO realize that this includes Democrats, right? Just so we're clear.

[Green Arrow]

right... which is why "volunteerism" doesn't work... most people aren't altruists.

Except it does work, every day, all over the world.

[Green Arrow]

It's funny. What they are advocating is the kissing cousin of socialism, everything is owned by the people. But tomorrow they'll post that socialism is evil. A real head scratcher.

Actually, when I argue voluntary socialism (aka ORIGINAL socialism, the socialism that begat all socialism), very few right-wing folks actually think it's a bad idea. It's the form of bastardized state socialism you people argue that they distaste.

[Ravi]

Actually, when I argue voluntary socialism (aka ORIGINAL socialism, the socialism that begat all socialism), very few right-wing folks actually think it's a bad idea. It's the form of bastardized state socialism you people argue that they distaste.
Who are "you people?"

Also, if people vote to implement social programs, is that bad socialism or good socialism?

[jillian]

Except it does work, every day, all over the world.

all over the world, civilized nations provide health care for their people.

[Chris]

http://altnewschannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/480028_435626763219935_1796327696_n.jpg



"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." ~Madison

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." ~Madison

[Chris]

all over the world, civilized nations provide health care for their people.



Actually they don't. What they may provide is insurance (ACA) and administration (single payer) but not healthcare.

[Alyosha]

Who are "you people?"


You. Partisans who don't investigate and just say "Okay, my party suggested it so it must be great--oh, look! They found an old lady in Peoria. They're doing it for her." And then don't look at the big picture, the cost of rollout, of implementation, of how the market will react, and so you end up with a web application that doesn't work, middle class Americans with higher premiums, and a nation more depressed than ever.

[Green Arrow]

Who are "you people?"

Well, given that I quoted your post with the word "you," I'd reckon I'm at least somewhat referring to you.


Also, if people vote to implement social programs, is that bad socialism or good socialism?

Neither. It's social democracy, sort of an in-between state, between capitalism and socialism.

[Green Arrow]

all over the world, civilized nations provide health care for their people.

Not really, but how is that even relevant to the success of voluntaryism?

[Alyosha]

all over the world, civilized nations provide health care for their people.

We provide health insurance and health care. We have Medicaid. We have St. Jude's. We have cooperatives. We have options if people do research.

We could also have done this a lot better which you will never admit because you're acting like a partisan. To admit that we could have would kill you. If you came close you'd only say "...but Republicans would never allow it."

Yeh. Like they were never going to allow Obamacare, and the Senate passed it anyway.

[Chris]

Actually, when I argue voluntary socialism (aka ORIGINAL socialism, the socialism that begat all socialism), very few right-wing folks actually think it's a bad idea. It's the form of bastardized state socialism you people argue that they distaste.


I'm learning that, that the two, socialism and statism, can be separated, and once the statism is removed, I have no serious problem with it, am interested in learning more. And I'm a extremerightwingnutter to some here.

[Green Arrow]

I'm learning that, that the two, socialism and statism, can be separated, and once the statism is removed, I have no serious problem with it, am interested in learning more. And I'm a extremerightwingnutter to some here.

I think it was Codename Section who basically said (and I'm paraphrasing) that whether you're right or left doesn't matter, because when you get to the point of being anti-state, right and left anti-statists are pretty much right there in the same camp. I tend to agree.

[Alyosha]

"This bill represents a giveaway to the insurance industry," Kucinich told MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell. "$70 billion a year, and no guarantees of any control over premiums, forcing people to buy private insurance...I'm sorry, I just don't see that this bill is the solution."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/kucinich-confirms-his-opposition-to-dems-health-care-reform-plan-even-if-he-s-the-deciding-vote-video


And Kucinich was right!

[Green Arrow]

"This bill represents a giveaway to the insurance industry," Kucinich told MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell. "$70 billion a year, and no guarantees of any control over premiums, forcing people to buy private insurance...I'm sorry, I just don't see that this bill is the solution."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/kucinich-confirms-his-opposition-to-dems-health-care-reform-plan-even-if-he-s-the-deciding-vote-video


And Kucinich was right!

I think we should replace this:

http://washingtonvirtualtrip.wikispaces.com/file/view/lincoln-memorial-flickr.jpg/212988862/lincoln-memorial-flickr.jpg

With this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIE8Rs7CUAIX8kW.jpg:large

[Alyosha]

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/other/221723-kucinich-single-payer-the-only-obviously-constitutional-healthcare-plan


"Regardless of the Supreme Court ruling on the Affordable Care Act, health care costs continue to rise, jeopardizing budgets and preventing people from getting the health care they need," Kucinich said. "Single-payer is the only solution that is obviously constitutional and can meet our nation’s needs.”



But let's just throw any old thing out there, have it hurt the middle class, have it waste hundreds of million so that we can show that we're irresponsible with the money and have no one trust us with single payer.

Sounds like a plan.

[patrickt]

There is no liberal brilliance. It isn't brilliant to just keep repeating the same lies over and over. President Obama and VP Biden are the shining lights and they are to brilliance a cesspool is to cleanliness.