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Cigar
10-07-2013, 02:42 PM
Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege.

Fact:

Few people go through life with without the need for Health Care.

No one lives a full and long life without the need for Health Care.

Therefore, if all Americans have the Right to Bear Arms, shouldn't they also have a Right to Basic Health Care?

The Right questions if America can afford Health Care for all Americans?

The Left questions how can America not afford Health Care for all Americans?

If America can supply Defense Security, Food and Economic Security for most of the World, why not it's own people first, second and last?

So why not Health Care for All Americans?

zelmo1234
10-07-2013, 02:55 PM
Sounds like a great Idea,

Are you going to be the one to introduce a constitutional amendment?

But other than that you post is very deceiving.

You see as a conservative I want people to discuss their treatment with their doctor and make the choices that are the best for them. I want them to have the freedom to pool together with their friends, family and organizations to purchase health insurance if they want it?

When you take the way the Democrats want, you have to put government regulations in between you and your care. So it does not matter if it is a right or a privilege you quality of care is going to go down, not up?

AmazonTania
10-07-2013, 02:56 PM
Because we don't have a right to force a duty upon others? And everyone also has a right to an attorney, even if they cannot afford one. But if there are 100 defendants and only 50 defense attorneys then everyone's right to an attorney obviously cannot be satisfied equally.

That really what it will all come down to by just claiming something is a 'right.'

roadmaster
10-07-2013, 04:15 PM
We can all have a conversation when no one is forced and premiums are not doubled. Affordable means for all not just the ones on welfare. When the left stops saying bring in illegals to take American jobs.

Peter1469
10-07-2013, 04:23 PM
Is health care a right, a privilege, or perhaps a service? :wink:

Mr Happy
10-07-2013, 04:26 PM
Love how some see carrying a pea shooter as a right, but getting health care less so...interesting mind set..

kilgram
10-07-2013, 04:28 PM
What is health? Yes I am asking health.

Life is a right?

Peter1469
10-07-2013, 04:30 PM
Love how some see carrying a pea shooter as a right, but getting health care less so...interesting mind set..

Read the Constitution.

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:33 PM
@AmazonTania (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=852) brings up a good point.

Why do people hire private attorneys rather than go with legal aid? I had friends who went the legal aid route because they were true believers and wanted everyone to have great legal representation. Unfortunately, their case load was 8 to 10 times what mine was due to people wanting to pay nothing or being unable to pay nothing, and as a result they didn't know their clients names, they usually ran behind, they were always having to ask for adjournments and their clients were dissatisfied.

I would get clients who went the Legal Aid route about 6 months later when their case was totally hosed and they would bitch because their attorney "never called them back".

I usually defended Legal Aid by telling them, you get what you pay for. They got poor service, not because they weren't good lawyers (most of them are) but because there is only so much time in every day.

roadmaster
10-07-2013, 04:34 PM
Is health care a right, a privilege, or perhaps a service? :wink: All Americans should be able to afford health care. We can't expect a twenty something year old to pay more than they make. Just going to a dentist will kill your wallet. Health care cost are bad here at the expense of the poor. Don't have the answers but when the hospital bills a person $15 for something for a headache something is wrong. The only thing is have more insurance companies and be able to get the cost lower. We need to do something. Most people that pay don't even use it some years.

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:35 PM
What is health? Yes I am asking health.

Life is a right?

You have the right to life. You have the right to eat well, exercise, and make yourself healthy. Note, I'm actually helping you with the language.

You mean the right to "medical care".

"Health" is a state of your body.

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:36 PM
Love how some see carrying a pea shooter as a right, but getting health care less so...interesting mind set..

Apples to oranges Mr Happy. :)

IF the United States government supplied people with guns because "it is our right to bear arms" then that's apples to apples.

kilgram
10-07-2013, 04:37 PM
@AmazonTania (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=852) brings up a good point.

Why do people hire private attorneys rather than go with legal aid? I had friends who went the legal aid route because they were true believers and wanted everyone to have great legal representation. Unfortunately, their case load was 8 to 10 times what mine was due to people wanting to pay nothing or being unable to pay nothing, and as a result they didn't know their clients names, they usually ran behind, they were always having to ask for adjournments and their clients were dissatisfied.

I would get clients who went the Legal Aid route about 6 months later when their case was totally hosed and they would bitch because their attorney "never called them back".

I usually defended Legal Aid by telling them, you get what you pay for. They got poor service, not because they weren't good lawyers (most of them are) but because there is only so much time in every day.
Yes, it is.

The question is:

- Should exist or not that public service?

If this public service exists, does will it not grant to more people have access to it?

And also, if this service has more people to give it? Won't it be even better?

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:39 PM
Yes, it is.

The question is:

- Should exist or not that public service?

If this public service exists, does will it not grant to more people have access to it?

And also, if this service has more people to give it? Won't it be even better?

Sorry, legal aid is a free public service. Just not many attorneys want to work for peanuts, or those types of hours so we don't.

They are swamped precisely because it is "free".

I refuse to work for 1/5 of what I make now, get more clients, and work longer hours. To make up for being a Scrooge I do pro bono work (free work) for people that are poor and I believe in their innocence.

kilgram
10-07-2013, 04:39 PM
You have the right to life. You have the right to eat well, exercise, and make yourself healthy. Note, I'm actually helping you with the language.

You mean the right to "medical care".

"Health" is a state of your body.
I mean "health", well to be healthy, better said. And it also links with life.

And thank you.

kilgram
10-07-2013, 04:42 PM
Sorry, legal aid is a free public service. Just not many attorneys want to work for peanuts, or those types of hours so we don't.

They are swamped precisely because it is "free".

I refuse to work for 1/5 of what I make now, get more clients, and work longer hours. To make up for being a Scrooge I do pro bono work (free work) for people that are poor and I believe in their innocence.
I don't tell that you should work for the state, or for less money or whatever. I was saying if this service was necessary or not. If there was not this service, probably less people would receive attorneys? No?

jillian
10-07-2013, 04:45 PM
Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege.

Fact:

Few people go through life with without the need for Health Care.

No one lives a full and long life without the need for Health Care.

Therefore, if all Americans have the Right to Bear Arms, shouldn't they also have a Right to Basic Health Care?

The Right questions if America can afford Health Care for all Americans?

The Left questions how can America not afford Health Care for all Americans?

If America can supply Defense Security, Food and Economic Security for most of the World, why not it's own people first, second and last?

So why not Health Care for All Americans?

the ACA doesn't provide health care.

but can't we say that health coverage doesn't have to be a right or a privilege but is the right thing to do?

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:50 PM
This is a blog by a doctor talking to doctors (to show their motivations now)

http://www.thehappymd.com/blog/bid/285923/Concierge-Medicine-will-get-Massive-Boost-from-Obamacare





Concierge Medicine will get Massive Boost from ObamacareThe shortage of physicians caused by the implementation of the Affordable Care Act in the next five years will drive a massive increase in the popularity of Concierge Medicine in the US.
As the typical healthcare organization adapts to the coming tidal wave of newly insured patients it will become very difficult for you to see your doctor when you are ill, impossible to see them for routine care and make the typical experience of getting a checkup feel like being dropped into a “patient mill”.
5 years from now, If you want to have a personal physician see you for all your healthcare needs, you will need to pay for the privilege.
One popular way to do this is “concierge medicine” where you pay a monthly or annual premium directly to your doctor and, in return, they become your own personal physician, taking direct responsibility for your healthcare needs. The good news is that concierge medicine is no longer a privilege of the rich. Premiums are becoming much more affordable – as low as $200/year – and if you enjoy seeing “my doctor” and not being rushed, you will feel the additional money for a concierge medicine doctor is well spent.
Concierge medicine popularity will also be driven by the primary care doctors themselves. Those who want to continue to have a personal relationship with their patients will find it very difficult to be satisfied with the typical high volume practice.
Why Concierge Medicine and why now? The Association of American Medical Colleges (https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/april11/184178/addressing_the_physician_shortage_under_reform.htm l) estimates that there will be a shortage of 91,500 doctors by 2020 as the Obamacare insurance coverage provisions are implemented and 30 million Americans become eligible for health insurance coverage.
This tidal wave of newly insured patients has to be served somehow and US Medical Schools and Residency Programs cannot supply anywhere near these numbers of new physicians in this short of a time frame. There is no hope whatsoever to cover the shortfall with newly minted US Residency graduates … none.


The Fork in the Road How will healthcare markets respond – especially with regards to primary care? As the shortage of primary care providers worsens it will literally create a fork in the road for patients and doctors, driving the structure of their practices into two completely different tracks.
- Each is a distinct and logical response to the massive patient overload
- The two models produce dramatically different experiences for both the patients and doctors
- And each will expose gaping holes in a physician’s medical education that must be addressed.




So, doctors are looking forward to concierge or boutique practice that Obamacare will inadvertently cause. That is what my doctor friends are moving to because of Obamacare.

Rich people will get "private doctors with more time", poor people will get "public doctors with less time".

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:53 PM
I don't tell that you should work for the state, or for less money or whatever. I was saying if this service was necessary or not. If there was not this service, probably less people would receive attorneys? No?

Ahh, I see what you're asking. Yes and no, that is why this is complicated and I wish for a different solution altogether. It would mean that instead of being paid $420 an hour, I would probably have lower rates to something like $85 an hour if we went entirely private, but that would also mean that there are people who still couldn't pay it and would depend on the kindness of attorneys--

hahahaha, couldn't type that with a straight face.

ahem

Actually, I do a lot of pro bono work but I don't know many that do. I would think that while the service would be better for people who could afford the attorney in purely private system, as you said, not everyone would have an attorney.

So, what would need to happen is some form of legal cooperative or insurance...or people just stay out of trouble, I guess.

As I've said, I think to fix this we need to rethink everything because, like you, I believe no one should go without cancer treatment.

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 04:57 PM
the ACA doesn't provide health care.

but can't we say that health coverage doesn't have to be a right or a privilege but is the right thing to do?

I believe that the right thing to do is to make it possible that everyone with a catastrophic event is treated. I don't want people who have cancer or a broken him to not be treated, but at the same time the reality is what it is.

Unless you can genetically engineer humans to not want to be paid for work you have a problem.

I have thought of having the government supply like a costco a "catastrophic plan" to everyone and then move to pay-for-service plans with your physician.

Cthulhu
10-07-2013, 04:59 PM
Ahh, I see what you're asking. Yes and no, that is why this is complicated and I wish for a different solution altogether. It would mean that instead of being paid $420 an hour, I would probably have lower rates to something like $85 an hour if we went entirely private, but that would also mean that there are people who still couldn't pay it and would depend on the kindness of attorneys--

hahahaha, couldn't type that with a straight face.

ahem

Actually, I do a lot of pro bono work but I don't know many that do. I would think that while the service would be better for people who could afford the attorney in purely private system, as you said, not everyone would have an attorney.

So, what would need to happen is some form of legal cooperative or insurance...or people just stay out of trouble, I guess.

As I've said, I think to fix this we need to rethink everything because, like you, I believe no one should go without cancer treatment.

What are your thoughts on legal insurance? Waste of cash or a good thing to keep current on?

zelmo1234
10-07-2013, 05:01 PM
Sorry, legal aid is a free public service. Just not many attorneys want to work for peanuts, or those types of hours so we don't.

They are swamped precisely because it is "free".

I refuse to work for 1/5 of what I make now, get more clients, and work longer hours. To make up for being a Scrooge I do pro bono work (free work) for people that are poor and I believe in their innocence.

Oh! Come on/ Scrooge was one hell of a Business man, before the conversion, that is :)

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 05:06 PM
What are your thoughts on legal insurance? Waste of cash or a good thing to keep current on?

For you? No. I'd find someone who owes me one.

Cthulhu
10-07-2013, 05:09 PM
For you? No. I'd find someone who owes me one.

Well not just traffic tickets, but the whole package - wills, Power of Attorney, rental contracts, criminal defense for vehicular manslaughter, identity theft etc...

Ya know, the whole thing. I have heard very little about it, only that it is cheap and can save your bacon sometimes for a nominal fee.

Alyosha
10-07-2013, 05:11 PM
Well not just traffic tickets, but the whole package - wills, Power of Attorney, rental contracts, criminal defense for vehicular manslaughter, identity theft etc...

Ya know, the whole thing. I have heard very little about it, only that it is cheap and can save your bacon sometimes for a nominal fee.

Depends upon the service, but in general I think it's a good move provided it is cheap. You'll get retired attorneys, fresh out of school attorneys, and legal aid moonlighting. It's usually a good mix.

Mr Happy
10-07-2013, 07:48 PM
Read the Constitution.

Not my point...

jillian
10-07-2013, 09:46 PM
Read the Constitution.

is there something in the constitution that prevents the government from acting for the general welfare of its people?

or were we created by the koch brothers and for the koch brothers?

Codename Section
10-07-2013, 09:50 PM
is there something in the constitution that prevents the government from acting for the general welfare of its people?

or were we created by the koch brothers and for the koch brothers?

The government can act. Build public hospitals then. Don't force people to buy things.

Peter1469
10-07-2013, 10:53 PM
is there something in the constitution that prevents the government from acting for the general welfare of its people?

or were we created by the koch brothers and for the koch brothers?

The General Welfare Clause contains the enumerated powers given to the legislature.

kilgram
10-08-2013, 12:06 AM
The government can act. Build public hospitals then. Don't force people to buy things.
I think that everybody is against Obamacare and would be for this option, I think that was called single option or something like that, no?

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 06:54 AM
I think that everybody is against Obamacare and would be for this option, I think that was called single option or something like that, no?

Public hospitals would look like the US military system, having places where you could go for surgery or expensive treatments. You'd have one in every state but not necessarily in your town.

For example, my husband was injured on deployment (which is how I met him because he had to drive 2 times a week to Bethesda Naval Hospital) and had the option of using his private insurance (Tricare) and paying a deductible to go to a closer hospital or having it fully funded at a military hospital.

Cigar
10-08-2013, 07:03 AM
Because we don't have a right to force a duty upon others? And everyone also has a right to an attorney, even if they cannot afford one. But if there are 100 defendants and only 50 defense attorneys then everyone's right to an attorney obviously cannot be satisfied equally.

That really what it will all come down to by just claiming something is a 'right.'

Then why are you paying Taxes ... if I were you I'd call an attorney. :laugh:

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 07:14 AM
Then why are you paying Taxes ... if I were you I'd call an attorney. :laugh:

When you wake up you'll want to edit this post so it makes sense to someone not still sleeping.^

patrickt
10-08-2013, 08:46 AM
Love how some see carrying a pea shooter as a right, but getting health care less so...interesting mind set..

Cigar: "Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege. "

It's interesting that Cigar posed a bogus argument and Mr. Happy buys right in. No one questions the right to health care or owning a gun. The issue is, who pays.

The issue is, liberals don't think it's necessary for people to pay for the services they consume. They're quite willing to force other people to pay for you and then they can call it free. Of course, the person whose purse is being drained doesn't see it as free.

People facing a $1,000 a year increase in their health insurance don't see the government interference as free, either.

nic34
10-08-2013, 08:51 AM
the ACA doesn't provide health care.

but can't we say that health coverage doesn't have to be a right or a privilege but is the right thing to do?

You are exactly right. But some need a constitutional amendment or a bible passage to convince them of "the right thing to do".

nic34
10-08-2013, 08:56 AM
The Road to Serfdom

Friedrich August Hayek

Page 125 of the edition that’s in Google books (http://books.google.com/books?id=fLovVMN6swkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+road+to+serfdom&source=bl&ots=oLQVXJSChV&sig=7e7yZCK9YmcDLCuJfW0BOmyWVGk&hl=en&ei=oPmHS67RDNPL8Qbu08GWDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=health&f=false):


Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance, where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks, the case for the state helping to organise a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong. There are many points of detail where those wishing to preserve the competitive system and those wishing to supersede it by something different will disagree on the details of such schemes; and it is possible under the name of social insurance to introduce measures which tend to make competition more or less ineffective. But there is no incompatibility in principle between the state providing greater security in this way and the preservation of individual freedom.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:00 AM
nic34

where do you honestly think the money will come from to pay for this?

Poor people? No, they take money from the system since they have none.

Rich people? Hahaha-seriously no, they have accounts in Belize and will disavow citizenship before they do that.

It will come from the middle class who will quickly become the lower class.

Seriously, how do YOU think we will come up with the money for this? Realistically speaking, of course.

nic34
10-08-2013, 09:01 AM
Honestly?

It comes from taxes, where did you think it came from?

Mister D
10-08-2013, 09:03 AM
Honestly?

It comes from taxes, where did you think it came from?

That's what she just said, nic.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:04 AM
Honestly?

It comes from taxes, where did you think it came from?

Whose taxes?

Be honest and don't evade.

The rich? Like this guy: http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/facebook-billionaire-gives-up-citizenship-to-escape-bad-american-tax-policy/

You think if you raise taxes on people who can roam all over the world and have a cosmopolitan versus nationalistic view that they will stay in the US and pay it?

Is that what you believe nic34, do you believe that rich people's taxes will go to pay for this?


Or, do you believe it will be the middle class again?


Honest answer please.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:05 AM
That's what she just said, nic.

Nic knows that. He's evading.

nic34
10-08-2013, 09:11 AM
So if "we" can't get the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes, not even talking about raising them, we should submit to the living standards of a 3rd world country?

Seriously? How did we get to the level of civilization with intelligent people like you taking this kind of we can't attitude?

Cigar
10-08-2013, 09:12 AM
Cigar: "Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege. "

It's interesting that Cigar posed a bogus argument and Mr. Happy buys right in. No one questions the right to health care or owning a gun. The issue is, who pays.

The issue is, liberals don't think it's necessary for people to pay for the services they consume. They're quite willing to force other people to pay for you and then they can call it free. Of course, the person whose purse is being drained doesn't see it as free.

People facing a $1,000 a year increase in their health insurance don't see the government interference as free, either.

Interesting ... throughout the 8 YEARS of the Bush Administration ... I'm sure 'people' who were 'uninsured' went to the Emergency-Room.

Please explain to the class who PAID for those services?

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:15 AM
So if "we" can't get the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes, not even talking about raising them, we should submit to the living standards of a 3rd world country?

Seriously? How did we get to the level of civilization with intelligent people like you taking this kind of we can't attitude?

nic34

Why are you avoiding the question? Is it because you realize that the middle class will be paying for this?

Just answer the question if you want intelligent discussion. Do you believe rich people will be paying for the health care costs or avoiding paying?

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/04/news/citizenship-us-tax/index.html‎


Sep 4, 2013 - Growing numbers of Americans are giving up their citizenship to avoid the ever more burdensome task of filing taxes each year

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 09:15 AM
So if "we" can't get the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes, not even talking about raising them, we should submit to the living standards of a 3rd world country?

Seriously? How did we get to the level of civilization with intelligent people like you taking this kind of we can't attitude?

Hey genius, your "soak the rich" mantra is full of BS like you are. Keep ignoring all the figures showing the "rich" are paying most of the taxes now. And here we thought that your Messiah's tax increases were going to fix everything, right? How come we still have 700 plus billion dollar deficits, genius?

It's the spending STUPID.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 09:17 AM
The General Welfare Clause contains the enumerated powers given to the legislature.
http://www.pleated-jeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/when-the-meal-you-ordered-is-by-far-the-best-at-the-table.gif

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:17 AM
Interesting ... throughout the 8 YEARS of the Bush Administration ... I'm sure 'people' who were 'uninsured' went to the Emergency-Room.

Please explain to the class who PAID for those services?


Not rich people. The middle class. Again. And now, they will still continue to pay because premiums go up in anticipation of the regulations and there will still be 40 million undocumented residents going to the ER because they won't get Obamacare.

Thanks for that Scylla and Charybdis.

You guys never, ever think things through. You are the party of soundbytes and the Republicans are the party of flag waving. The rest of are trapped with you idiots in charge.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:18 AM
Hey genius, your "soak the rich" mantra is full of BS like you are. Keep ignoring all the figures showing the "rich" are paying most of the taxes now. And here we thought that your Messiah's tax increases were going to fix everything, right? How come we still have 700 plus billion dollar deficits, genius?

It's the spending STUPID.


Actually, people making between $125k and $500k (well off but not "rich" like Warren Buffet) pay the greatest share of the tax burden.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 09:20 AM
To the leftists like Nic, they are the rich.

The one percent pay nearly 37 percent of the taxes now.

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

bladimz
10-08-2013, 09:43 AM
And the top 1% own more than a third of the wealth in this country. 10% own 75% of the wealth. This leaves the other 90% with only 25%.

http://goo.gl/7ELsIQ (http://money.howstuffworks.com/one-percent-control-third-of-wealth.htm)

Note that in your provided link that in 2006, the 1% paid 38%; 1% more than 2009. I'll wager that by now the 1% pay an even lower percentage in taxes. We'll have to wait and see, won't we.

How much of their taxable income is stored in an overseas account?

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:45 AM
And the top 1% own more than a third of the wealth in this country. 10% own 75% of the wealth. This leaves the other 90% with only 25%.

http://goo.gl/7ELsIQ (http://money.howstuffworks.com/one-percent-control-third-of-wealth.htm)

Note that in your provided link that in 2006, the 1% paid 38%; 1% more than 2009. I'll wager that by now the 1% pay an even lower percentage in taxes. We'll have to wait and see, won't we.

How much of their taxable income is stored in an overseas account?

Do you know where the 1% start and where it ends? There is a huge difference between someone making $175k and Warren Buffet. The one making $175k a year, especially if he lives in NYC for example can pay close to 46% between all his taxes whereas people who don't take a salary, people like Buffet pay 11%.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 09:45 AM
How much is enough, Blad?

For you, never enough.

For the rest of you, Blad is our resident class hater and warrior. Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

As for Buffett, he's a big Obama fan and constantly whining about soak the rich. I'm still waiting for him to write some checks to the government.

OK

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:51 AM
http://www.kiplinger.com/kipimages/ledes/2010_tax_burden.jpg

The 10%r's that are included in all of these anti-rich people diatribes are middle class Americans. $116k between two people is not wealthy.

nic34
10-08-2013, 09:54 AM
Hey genius, your "soak the rich" mantra is full of BS like you are. Keep ignoring all the figures showing the "rich" are paying most of the taxes now. And here we thought that your Messiah's tax increases were going to fix everything, right? How come we still have 700 plus billion dollar deficits, genius?

It's the spending STUPID.

I see you still can't post without berating your opponents with schoolyard bully epithets. Go back to bed old man.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 09:58 AM
I see you still can't post without berating your opponents with schoolyard bully epithets. Go back to bed old man.

How about you answer the question about who you believe will be paying for poor people to have insurance?

Will it be

a) stockholders of insurance companies,

b) middle class taxpayers,

c) rich people like Mitt Romney,

d) middle class through higher premiums, or

e) b & d


@nic34 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=572)

who will pay it? You make fun of Republicans on here because they "don't get it". Tell us how it works.

Who will pay for the previously uninsured to be insured? Specifically.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 10:12 AM
Not rich people. The middle class. Again. And now, they will still continue to pay because premiums go up in anticipation of the regulations and there will still be 40 million undocumented residents going to the ER because they won't get Obamacare.

Thanks for that Scylla and Charybdis.

You guys never, ever think things through. You are the party of soundbytes and the Republicans are the party of flag waving. The rest of are trapped with you idiots in charge.Sadly, you're right. The burden again falls on the middle class. So what else is new? It seems that no matter what laws are passed, they're designed to drive the middle class out of existence.

It's unfortunate that insurance companies had the opportunity to jack up premiums in anticipation of ObamaCare worries, forcing more people to drop their coverage, increasing the number of uninsured americans. But they have their rights as private entities. Competition is a joke in the industry. The the difference in price of their products to consumers offered by any the larger insurance companies is negligible.

I think the idea of concierge coverage is interesting. Like keeping your doctor on retainer. But they didn't really address the issue of having to deal with specialists (did they?).

Anyway, i think that even if ObamaCare doesn't work out the way it was planned, it's a start toward moving away from the current system: No coverage for pre-existing conditions, and having your coverage inexplicably dropped by your company with a smile on their face. Change is important but no one said it's all going to happen at once.

lynn
10-08-2013, 10:15 AM
The answer of course is "e" but the problem that is going to evident soon is the middle class wage earners are outnumbered by the lower wage earners. This mandate is going to hurt middle wage earners the most and our government doesn't seem to care.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 11:18 AM
How much is enough, Blad?

For you, never enough.

For the rest of you, Blad is our resident class hater and warrior. Keep that in mind when you read his posts.

As for Buffett, he's a big Obama fan and constantly whining about soak the rich. I'm still waiting for him to write some checks to the government.

OKYep. Mainegoons is right. He's really got me pegged. Boy, do i hate the upper class. Keep that in mind when you read my posts. You most likely will see exactly what he's moaning and groaning about.

But then, what does he care. Whatever deals, tax-breaks from our government, and the ability to cheat the middle and lower class workers, in effect cheating America: he isn't affected...

People who live in outside the country aren't affected and don't have to care.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 11:21 AM
The answer of course is "e" but the problem that is going to evident soon is the middle class wage earners are outnumbered by the lower wage earners. This mandate is going to hurt middle wage earners the most and our government doesn't seem to care.As long as people think that our government really gives a crap about us, we'll continue to let them crap on us. The US government is owned and operated by Big Private Business. "Private Owns Public". That would be a great title for my next book.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 11:24 AM
Sadly, you're right. The burden again falls on the middle class. So what else is new? It seems that no matter what laws are passed, they're designed to drive the middle class out of existence.


Exactly.

By design.



It's unfortunate that insurance companies had the opportunity to jack up premiums in anticipation of ObamaCare worries, forcing more people to drop their coverage, increasing the number of uninsured americans. But they have their rights as private entities. Competition is a joke in the industry. The the difference in price of their products to consumers offered by any the larger insurance companies is negligible.


I was a child in the Soviet Union. I could go see a doctor, housing was free, and the food, too. Ask me if I think purely public is a good idea and I'll tell you about a 7 hour wait for my mother to get sanitary supplies.



I think the idea of concierge coverage is interesting. Like keeping your doctor on retainer. But they didn't really address the issue of having to deal with specialists (did they?).


What do you mean by specialists? Do you mean surgery?



Anyway, i think that even if ObamaCare doesn't work out the way it was planned, it's a start toward moving away from the current system: No coverage for pre-existing conditions, and having your coverage inexplicably dropped by your company with a smile on their face. Change is important but no one said it's all going to happen at once.

Change is important, but I don't believe in jumping into darkness or into a situation with high potential to be worse for the middle class. Patience used to be a virtue. We proved that the nation sees that something is broken and wants to fix it, but secrecy over the legislation proved that it was a gimme to insurance providers. People cannot blindly accept the word of politicians that you have to pass it to see what's in it. We must have an investment in the country ascitizens and that starts by being active and putting forth your own ideas as a grass roots coalition.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 11:25 AM
As long as people think that our government really gives a crap about us, we'll continue to let them crap on us. The US government is owned and operated by Big Private Business. "Private Owns Public". That would be a great title for my next book.

You may not like the Tea Party but the Tea Party was grass roots all the way. Instead of hating on them, create your own version within the Democrats.

Cigar
10-08-2013, 12:16 PM
You may not like the Tea Party but the Tea Party was grass roots all the way. Instead of hating on them, create your own version within the Democrats.

We did ... they're called Progressives :grin:

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 12:16 PM
We did ... they're called Progressives :grin:

A party, dingbat.

Cigar
10-08-2013, 12:18 PM
A party, dingbat.

Please ... :rollseyes:

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001867315/1712779605_d81663bf31a055fb_alg_sarah_palin_michel e_bachmann_xlarge.jpeg

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 12:24 PM
Please ... :rollseyes:

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001867315/1712779605_d81663bf31a055fb_alg_sarah_palin_michel e_bachmann_xlarge.jpeg


I'm sorry, did you mistake me for someone who was in the Tea Party? That's your problem.


Being wrong all the time must get you high.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 12:24 PM
You may not like the Tea Party but the Tea Party was grass roots all the way. Instead of hating on them, create your own version within the Democrats.I don't necessarily hate the Tea Party, but i do question the "grass roots" thing. I happen to agree with the "conspiracy theory" that suggests that the Tea Party is the creation of the Koch Brothers. Sorry; i just do. I think they are politically motivated to serve their hard-right interests.

The only version i would support is a movement that exists outside of the political arena. The idea of voting a politician representative of your ideology into office, expecting them to make a difference is moronic. For the most part, they'll be assimilated and they'll forget their promises to you, just like any other politician.

And yes. By outside the arena, i mean one like OWS. Their agenda was socially driven, working for the people and addressing the abuses they suffer at the hands of those that are responsible... Big Banks for instance. OWS was/is advocating the "get out the money" position. That works for the people and not some BS political agenda.

Cigar
10-08-2013, 12:25 PM
I'm sorry, did you mistake me for someone who was in the Tea Party? That's your problem.


Being wrong all the time must get you high.

Naaa .. just Winning :grin:

nic34
10-08-2013, 12:30 PM
Change is important, but I don't believe in jumping into darkness or into a situation with high potential to be worse for the middle class. Patience used to be a virtue. We proved that the nation sees that something is broken and wants to fix it, but secrecy over the legislation proved that it was a gimme to insurance providers. People cannot blindly accept the word of politicians that you have to pass it to see what's in it. We must have an investment in the country ascitizens and that starts by being active and putting forth your own ideas as a grass roots coalition.


Jumping into darkness? Patience? Really?

Lady, I pay my share of taxes and premiums and fees and deductables and co-payments, and have for many years. All Americans want is what they pay for, not what some corporate bean counter tells us we "deserve". You may say government is a "worse" bean counter.... well maybe, but I don't care.... it's time the govt. regulated the insurance and medical industry, and require the deadbeats to chip in...

People have been waiting since the founding of this nation for fairness at the doctor's office and at the hospital. And if we make just small incremental progress toward that goal, we'll take it.

It's better than expecting the false promise of perfection your friends always tell us is just around the corner if we're just patient.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 12:46 PM
That's "deductibles" genius. Anyone who doesn't know how much the government already "regulates" the medical and insurance industries probably needs more than some remedial education in spelling.

Your idea of fairness is for a grossly unfair and incompetent government to get between you and your doctor. A really bright idea, yep.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 01:03 PM
Jumping into darkness? Patience? Really?

Yes. Really. You just put faith in a bunch of people just like me only they go to lunch with lobbyists who promise them the world if they would only add this one little thing into the legislation...

Patience and effort would have created a grass roots movement where the people drafted the legislation and handed it to Congress.

You realize you can do that, right? Did you? No. You exerted no effort and no patience. You waited on a bunch of lawyers who have zero in common with you to create legislation that they are unaffected by.




Lady, I pay my share of taxes and premiums and fees and deductables and co-payments, and have for many years.

Man, I pay my share of taxes, close to 46% of my 2012 earnings, fees and deductable and co-payments, and have for many years too.





All Americans want is what they pay for, not what some corporate bean counter tells us we "deserve".

Most Americans will never get out of insurance what they put into insurance. Insurance is a scam. It is a company gambling that you won't take out what you put in. We should have focused on driving down the costs of health care, not creating cheaper insurance.





You may say government is a "worse" bean counter.... well maybe, but I don't care....

I know you don't. This is obvious.





it's time the govt. regulated the insurance and medical industry, and require the deadbeats to chip in...

Who are the alleged deadbeats?



People have been waiting since the founding of this nation for fairness at the doctor's office and at the hospital.

No. Doctors were very well respected at the founding of the nation. They took barter and trade and traveled to your home. They took payment plans and trust was established.




And if we make just small incremental progress toward that goal, we'll take it.


What's the progress that you see?



It's better than expecting the false promise of perfection your friends always tell us is just around the corner if we're just patient.

Who are my friends and when did they say perfection was around the corner?

Please make a logical argument and not just make up stuff that I cannot respond to because it has so application to me.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 01:05 PM
I don't necessarily hate the Tea Party, but i do question the "grass roots" thing. I happen to agree with the "conspiracy theory" that suggests that the Tea Party is the creation of the Koch Brothers. Sorry; i just do. I think they are politically motivated to serve their hard-right interests.

How are they serving hard-right interests?

I see the Republicans doing this, but Tea Party, no. Who makes money off shutting down the national parks or IRS? Who makes money off of stopping Obamacare?

The same people are still making money. Obamacare helps insurance companies and hospital systems make money. Explain who you think is being helped by this.

nic34
10-08-2013, 02:27 PM
Patience and effort would have created a grass roots movement where the people drafted the legislation and handed it to Congress.

You realize you can do that, right? Did you? No. You exerted no effort and no patience. You waited on a bunch of lawyers who have zero in common with you to create legislation that they are unaffected by.



Oh to be young and idealistic with your whole life in front of you....

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 02:28 PM
Oh to be young and idealistic with your whole life in front of you....

I'm cynical and jaded and went to school with K streeters.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 02:55 PM
Cigar: "Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege. "

It's interesting that Cigar posed a bogus argument and Mr. Happy buys right in. No one questions the right to health care or owning a gun. The issue is, who pays.

The issue is, liberals don't think it's necessary for people to pay for the services they consume. They're quite willing to force other people to pay for you and then they can call it free. Of course, the person whose purse is being drained doesn't see it as free.

People facing a $1,000 a year increase in their health insurance don't see the government interference as free, either.

No, what I believe in is that you pay for the health system through taxes. I am more than happy to do that. Eventually, all things being even, myself or members of my family will need to use the health system at some stage. You Yanks get to caught up in the 'user pays' system. Health care is a huge issue in most western countries, and has been a political hot potato in almost every election down here. Never at the top of the list (tax usually is and education), but it is still there. However, the level to which it is discussed in the US pales in comparison.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 02:58 PM
Good. You keep right on doing that in New Zealand. If you're happy with it in your country and your country is happy with it I'd never presume to criticize you or suggest there's something wrong with you and your fellows. If it works for you in your homogeneous little backwater, then I'm all for it.

Kindly return the courtesy.

bladimz
10-08-2013, 03:00 PM
How are they serving hard-right interests?

I see the Republicans doing this, but Tea Party, no. Who makes money off shutting down the national parks or IRS? Who makes money off of stopping Obamacare?

The same people are still making money. Obamacare helps insurance companies and hospital systems make money. Explain who you think is being helped by this.It's their perception. They see themselves as warriors, fighting against more taxes, bigger government and, in many way, Obama himself. The politicians sent into congress on their behalf are the hard-righters that are screwing up the Republican party, and i guess will work against the party in 2014. Whatever... who is wasting money and time trying to vote ObamaCare into oblivion like 43 times, or so. Stopping ObamaCare because why? Do they want to stop it because they're representing "We the People"? (don't make me laugh). Is it because they see this as an attack on our american way of life and that ObamaCare is just another product of socialism? (riiiight). It's not about who makes money stopping the ACA; right now it's about saving their bacon for the 2014 elections.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 03:01 PM
Definition hard righter: Anyone who doesn't share Blad's love of class warfare and big government.

OK

Chris
10-08-2013, 03:04 PM
Health falls under pursuit of happiness, you have a right to pursue it.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 03:25 PM
No, what I believe in is that you pay for the health system through taxes. I am more than happy to do that. Eventually, all things being even, myself or members of my family will need to use the health system at some stage. You Yanks get to caught up in the 'user pays' system. Health care is a huge issue in most western countries, and has been a political hot potato in almost every election down here. Never at the top of the list (tax usually is and education), but it is still there. However, the level to which it is discussed in the US pales in comparison.

New Zealand has a different population, different culture, and different economy. I believe smaller scaled system is capable of working, but I also believe there are other ways to bring down cost and improve care.

As I said I work in a practice area where we have half private/half public and based off of what I see in the public sector I would never personally want to put my life (or health) in the hands of someone overworked.

Alyosha
10-08-2013, 03:26 PM
It's their perception. They see themselves as warriors, fighting against more taxes, bigger government and, in many way, Obama himself.

Wow, I should join the Tea Party. I thought they were just more conservative Republicans.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Good. You keep right on doing that in New Zealand. If you're happy with it in your country and your country is happy with it I'd never presume to criticize you or suggest there's something wrong with you and your fellows. If it works for you in your homogeneous little backwater, then I'm all for it.

Kindly return the courtesy.

Nice xenophobic rant. Get the admin to nix all IP addys outside the US. Otherwise I'll do as I please...thanx in advance..nobody is putting a gun to your head and asking you to reply to my posts..

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 03:57 PM
How about you spend more time molesting sheep and less time molesting this board then?

:grin:

Codename Section
10-08-2013, 03:59 PM
We had socialized health care in the military and I thought it sucked, but...I guess sucky health care is better than getting good health care and then defaulting on your medical bills. I guess.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:01 PM
New Zealand has a different population, different culture, and different economy. I believe smaller scaled system is capable of working, but I also believe there are other ways to bring down cost and improve care.

As I said I work in a practice area where we have half private/half public and based off of what I see in the public sector I would never personally want to put my life (or health) in the hands of someone overworked.

Yeah, but if you put health care at a state level, then it would be similar. our system is far from perfect, but it is similar to the UK (who have 14 times our population) and other parts of Europe.

The problem with your system, is you that you try and put a capitalistic fix on something that is more of a service than a money making enterprise.

Most Yanks look on it as "how can we make money out of this?". We look at it as "how do we fix people who are sick?"...

Saying it is a different culture is a cop out. It's not hard to change cultures. If you want to...

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:01 PM
We had socialized health care in the military and I thought it sucked, but...I guess sucky health care is better than getting good health care and then defaulting on your medical bills. I guess.

So your medics and doctors were crap in the services? Again, probably due to the initial mindset from which it was born...

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 04:03 PM
Nice xenophobic rant. Get the admin to nix all IP addys outside the US. Otherwise I'll do as I please...thanx in advance..nobody is putting a gun to your head and asking you to reply to my posts..

I usually don't since you not only don't understand how little you know about the U.S. they aren't worth replying to. But since NZ is such a perfect paradise I suppose you don't have any local boards where you can discuss your own business so you spend your time sticking your nose in someone else's.

Carry on, Joker.

midcan5
10-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Here's a start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxWMkW8s_c

nic34
10-08-2013, 04:05 PM
Nice xenophobic rant. Get the admin to nix all IP addys outside the US. Otherwise I'll do as I please...thanx in advance..nobody is putting a gun to your head and asking you to reply to my posts..

Just ask him if the mestizos in his backwater part of mexico know he's playing with their computers ......:laugh:

Codename Section
10-08-2013, 04:08 PM
So your medics and doctors were crap in the services? Again, probably due to the initial mindset from which it was born...

Crap compared to private doctors. I imagine this is due to the high volume and because they are usually only serving to pay for medical school and want to get out and make real money.

EDIT: Let me make an exception: battlefield doctors will turn out to be the most awesome fucking doctors in the world. My comments were about stateside.

Codename Section
10-08-2013, 04:10 PM
Yeah, but if you put health care at a state level, then it would be similar. our system is far from perfect, but it is similar to the UK (who have 14 times our population) and other parts of Europe.

The problem with your system, is you that you try and put a capitalistic fix on something that is more of a service than a money making enterprise.

Most Yanks look on it as "how can we make money out of this?". We look at it as "how do we fix people who are sick?"...

Saying it is a different culture is a cop out. It's not hard to change cultures. If you want to...

People travel to the US for our doctors because they see it as a money-making enterprise. You sacrifice something to gain something, I guess.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:15 PM
How about you spend more time molesting sheep and less time molesting this board then?

:grin:

Better yet, put me on ignore. You obviously have no argument...
And please, I am not interested in your sexual preferences. You need to hold yourself back from sharing your gross sexual tendencies in a public forum..

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:18 PM
I usually don't since you not only don't understand how little you know about the U.S. they aren't worth replying to. But since NZ is such a perfect paradise I suppose you don't have any local boards where you can discuss your own business so you spend your time sticking your nose in someone else's.

Carry on, Joker.

I have been commenting on messageboards for over 12 years. Most have Americans on them. There is always one redneck, neocon whackjob who sits on his bully pulpit rabbiting on a about 'go back to your own country'. They are usually the most intellectually challenged and not the brightest bulb in the socket. It is good to see you are not letting the side down.

I would suggest that most of us in little ole NZ are happy with our lot. It is a far from a perfect society, but we don't bitch and moan nearly as much as you righties do.

The day the US stops sticking its beak into the rest of the world's business is the day I leave these boards.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:20 PM
People travel to the US for our doctors because they see it as a money-making enterprise. You sacrifice something to gain something, I guess.

You mean other doctors? Both Oz and NZ have both private and public health sectors. My sister in law is a doctor in the public health sector in NZ. I don't know of any poor doctors. More like the have varying degrees of wealth...Doctors in the private sector tend to have more wealth but my SIL easily brings in a six figure salary and is doing nicely. Not uber rich, but OK nonetheless..

bladimz
10-08-2013, 04:24 PM
Wow, I should join the Tea Party. I thought they were just more conservative Republicans.If that's how you want to imagine yourself, i guess you should.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 04:24 PM
Just ask him if the mestizos in his backwater part of mexico know he's playing with their computers ......:laugh:

LOL..so not only does he rag on people for dare criticising or discussing his precious Utopia, he doesn't even live there himself? Priceless...RATFLMAO!!!

bladimz
10-08-2013, 04:47 PM
Definition hard righter: Anyone who doesn't share Blad's love of class warfare and big government.

OK
http://i.imgur.com/F97cfo1.gif

bladimz
10-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Here's a start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxWMkW8s_cThere's certainly something to what she says.

Chris
10-08-2013, 04:58 PM
There's certainly something to what she says.

Yes, it you're a partisan who blames the other side for everything.

AmazonTania
10-08-2013, 05:01 PM
Yeah, but if you put health care at a state level, then it would be similar. our system is far from perfect, but it is similar to the UK (who have 14 times our population) and other parts of Europe.

The problem with your system, is you that you try and put a capitalistic fix on something that is more of a service than a money making enterprise.

Most Yanks look on it as "how can we make money out of this?". We look at it as "how do we fix people who are sick?"...

Saying it is a different culture is a cop out. It's not hard to change cultures. If you want to...

The last life saving drug to be develop from the UK and New Zealand was 40 years ago. There is really no reason why America should be looking at the UK model, or New Zealand model for that matter, as what we can learn from.

AmazonTania
10-08-2013, 05:05 PM
People travel to the US for our doctors because they see it as a money-making enterprise. You sacrifice something to gain something, I guess.

Not to mention most foreign doctors also travel to the US for work. At least some good came from the AMA monopoly power on licensing doctors.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 06:53 PM
The last life saving drug to be develop from the UK and New Zealand was 40 years ago. There is really no reason why America should be looking at the UK model, or New Zealand model for that matter, as what we can learn from.

I get that the funding comes from US and the drug companies certainly need to recoup their R&D costs. But you wonder why generic drugs do so well when patents expire? And to be fair, some of the FDA approved drugs are been a bit dodgy to say the least. Lithium anyone? Or maybe some Ritalin?

And the topic is health care, not drug R&D.

Mr Happy
10-08-2013, 06:54 PM
Not to mention most foreign doctors also travel to the US for work. At least some good came from the AMA monopoly power on licensing doctors.

Link to stats...take your time...

AmazonTania
10-08-2013, 07:36 PM
I get that the funding comes from US and the drug companies certainly need to recoup their R&D costs. But you wonder why generic drugs do so well when patents expire? And to be fair, some of the FDA approved drugs are been a bit dodgy to say the least. Lithium anyone? Or maybe some Ritalin?

I don't wonder why generic drugs do so well when patents expire. I already know.


And the topic is health care, not drug R&D.

They're both one and the same. I don't know how exactly you plan on curing illnesses or unless you think monkeys create drugs, scientist and doctors use plenty of resources to figure out how to cure many ills. This requires funding.

AmazonTania
10-08-2013, 07:37 PM
Link to stats...take your time...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/magazine/america-is-stealing-foreign-doctors.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Mr Happy
10-09-2013, 03:53 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/magazine/america-is-stealing-foreign-doctors.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

As I said, when you find a link to stats, post them. Take your time...

Mr Happy
10-09-2013, 03:54 AM
I don't wonder why generic drugs do so well when patents expire. I already know.



They're both one and the same. I don't know how exactly you plan on curing illnesses or unless you think monkeys create drugs, scientist and doctors use plenty of resources to figure out how to cure many ills. This requires funding.

You said the last time somebody in NZ or UK was 40 years ago. However the drugs that they discovered are still in use. Penicillin anyone?

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 06:35 AM
You said the last time somebody in NZ or UK was 40 years ago. However the drugs that they discovered are still in use. Penicillin anyone?

I don't think she meant it as a team thing. :) Japan invented sushi and we all love that, too.

Her point was that our research funded by private entities spurs innovation because people have incentive to create a drug and get rich from it.

Countries that have incentives for private industry show positive correlations to innovation, and while this has not been tested for causation the scientific methodology does include observational and evidence-based outcomes.

Chris
10-09-2013, 08:53 AM
You said the last time somebody in NZ or UK was 40 years ago. However the drugs that they discovered are still in use. Penicillin anyone?

Come on, Amazon was addressing innovation in the pharmaceutical industry. How's that doing in UK and NZ?


Edit, Alyosha already addressed.

nic34
10-09-2013, 09:01 AM
Yes, it you're a partisan who blames the other side for everything.

But sometimes the "other side" IS to blame....

Mainecoons
10-09-2013, 09:02 AM
And with you, EVERY time.

:grin:

Chris
10-09-2013, 09:04 AM
But sometimes the "other side" IS to blame....

And sometimes your side is. And therein lies the problem, the sides are not about principles or the American people, but the parties themselves, it's all about taking credit, laying blame, winning...for the party. That is why Washington DC is so disconnected from the people.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 09:07 AM
But sometimes the "other side" IS to blame....

Only in an uncomplicated 2-D universe where there are only 2 options for everything. Isn't that called "fundamentalism"?

Paperback Writer
10-09-2013, 09:38 AM
Democrats think Health Care is a Right.

Republicans think Health Care is a Privilege.

Fact:

Few people go through life with without the need for Health Care.

No one lives a full and long life without the need for Health Care.

Therefore, if all Americans have the Right to Bear Arms, shouldn't they also have a Right to Basic Health Care?

The Right questions if America can afford Health Care for all Americans?

The Left questions how can America not afford Health Care for all Americans?

If America can supply Defense Security, Food and Economic Security for most of the World, why not it's own people first, second and last?

So why not Health Care for All Americans?
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294)

A "right" is an entitlement to something. Natural rights are those entitlements which by default are owned and possessed by all without one's ownership infringing upon the rights of another.

So, to answer is health care a right, my answer is "only if everyone agrees it is".

Health care is not free. To entitle someone to health care is to infringe upon another's entitlement to the fruit of their labour. You violate their rights when you determine for them that you, or others, are entitled to what they own and possess so that you might also possess something.

Why national health care exists in the UK is actually a result of our monarchy. We are all subjects of the Crown. No, she doesn't go around making laws anymore, but she opens Parliament as "Her Majesty's Parliament". We have no entitlements to keeping a particular portion of our labour traditionally because we are subjects. All of Europe holds this notion and this is why reforming health care under a national insurance worked out without all the fuss and melodrama.

It's cultural mate.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 09:56 AM
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294)

A "right" is an entitlement to something. Natural rights are those entitlements which by default are owned and possessed by all without one's ownership infringing upon the rights of another.

So, to answer is health care a right, my answer is "only if everyone agrees it is".

Health care is not free. To entitle someone to health care is to infringe upon another's entitlement to the fruit of their labour. You violate their rights when you determine for them that you, or others, are entitled to what they own and possess so that you might also possess something.

Why national health care exists in the UK is actually a result of our monarchy. We are all subjects of the Crown. No, she doesn't go around making laws anymore, but she opens Parliament as "Her Majesty's Parliament". We have no entitlements to keeping a particular portion of our labour traditionally because we are subjects. All of Europe holds this notion and this is why reforming health care under a national insurance worked out without all the fuss and melodrama.

It's cultural mate.

Bottom-Line ... by a Huge Majority, The American People Voted, The Supreme Court Ruled and The President of The United States Signed into LAW ... The Affordable Care Act began implementation on October 1st 2013. Registration will go through into next year. The American People by LARGE "will" have the opportunity of affordable Health Care.

Reality-Check: NOTHING WILL STOP THAT.

... and you can quote me on this on January 20th 2016

Chris
10-09-2013, 10:09 AM
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294)

A "right" is an entitlement to something. Natural rights are those entitlements which by default are owned and possessed by all without one's ownership infringing upon the rights of another.

So, to answer is health care a right, my answer is "only if everyone agrees it is".

Health care is not free. To entitle someone to health care is to infringe upon another's entitlement to the fruit of their labour. You violate their rights when you determine for them that you, or others, are entitled to what they own and possess so that you might also possess something.

Why national health care exists in the UK is actually a result of our monarchy. We are all subjects of the Crown. No, she doesn't go around making laws anymore, but she opens Parliament as "Her Majesty's Parliament". We have no entitlements to keeping a particular portion of our labour traditionally because we are subjects. All of Europe holds this notion and this is why reforming health care under a national insurance worked out without all the fuss and melodrama.

It's cultural mate.


I prefer to view rights as social responsibilities. You have a right to pursue happiness in the sense you have a responsibility to pursue your own happiness and thereby contribute to family, community, society. Changing yourself for the better changes society for the better.

Entitlement sound too much like FDR's bill of rights, or the UN's, or those "rights" attached to the ACA, as something government has a responsibility to provide you.

Maybe I'm just quibbling about a word.

Chris
10-09-2013, 10:10 AM
Bottom-Line ... by a Huge Majority, The American People Voted, The Supreme Court Ruled and The President of The United States Signed into LAW ... The Affordable Care Act began implementation on October 1st 2013. Registration will go through into next year. The American People by LARGE "will" have the opportunity of affordable Health Care.

Reality-Check: NOTHING WILL STOP THAT.

... and you can quote me on this on January 20th 2016


A huge majority? 25% is not huge or a majority.

SCOTUS ruled the ACA individual mandate a tax.

Obama keeps changing his law.

Paperback Writer
10-09-2013, 10:17 AM
Bottom-Line ... by a Huge Majority, The American People Voted, The Supreme Court Ruled and The President of The United States Signed into LAW ... The Affordable Care Act began implementation on October 1st 2013. Registration will go through into next year. The American People by LARGE "will" have the opportunity of affordable Health Care.

Reality-Check: NOTHING WILL STOP THAT.

... and you can quote me on this on January 20th 2016

Did you not want to have a rational conversation about health care? If so, why didn't you respond to my rational response?

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:29 AM
Did you not want to have a rational conversation about health care? If so, why didn't you respond to my rational response?

I the short while I have been here I have never seen Cigar discuss anything. He only says stuff about 2012 elections, 2012 elections, and 2012 elections.

Just ignore.

Mister D
10-09-2013, 11:29 AM
I the short while I have been here I have never seen Cigar discuss anything. He only says stuff about 2012 elections, 2012 elections, and 2012 elections.

Just ignore.

If only they would.

nic34
10-09-2013, 11:33 AM
If only they would.

Yes, it is so much easier having a one-sided debate..................:rollseyes:

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:36 AM
Yes, it is so much easier having a one-sided debate..................:rollseyes:

Cigar doesn't debate. Can you honestly say that he engages in debate? Honestly? Hope to die, stick a needle in your eye, honestly?

Mister D
10-09-2013, 11:36 AM
Yes, it is so much easier having a one-sided debate..................:rollseyes:

Cigar doesn't discuss or debate.

lynn
10-11-2013, 12:22 PM
The biggest issue with healthcare is no one is bothering to regulate the way providers of healthcare are pricing their procedures. For example for a hip replacement, it cost the manufacturer $350 to make it while the healthcare industry charges $30,000. It didn't matter so much in the past on pricing when HMO's and PPO's had low deductibles since anything over what the insurance allows for that procedure code was written off.

Now what is happening is the insurance companies are raising the allowable on certain codes knowing full well that it will be applied to a person high deductible. If we had the HMO's and PPO's of the past, that allowable for those certain codes would be much lower since they would be paying for those codes. Insurance companies are evil enterprises and only care about their profit margin for their stock holders. Do the American people really want to support a system like this?

I know I don't and this is what is making me so angry that we are being forced into a mandate that is corrupt and totally unfair to its consumers.