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View Full Version : "We can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy"



Ravi
10-08-2013, 01:59 PM
Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently.

jillian
10-08-2013, 02:03 PM
ah... but that's not extortion... that's being "we the people"

(even if they're only about 25% of "the people")

nic34
10-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Don't you want freedom?

Ravi
10-08-2013, 02:05 PM
Freedom to extort!

Agravan
10-08-2013, 02:22 PM
So the 25% are not entitled to a voice in your version of government?

Ravi
10-08-2013, 02:31 PM
So the 25% are not entitled to a voice in your version of government?
They had it. It was called the 2012 election. And the SCOTUS ruling. Everything else is extortion at this point.

Agravan
10-08-2013, 02:33 PM
They had it. It was called the 2012 election. And the SCOTUS ruling. Everything else is extortion at this point.

So, the side that loses should shut up and grab their ankles, is that what you're basically saying. Because, since they lost, they lose the right to representation, right?

Ravi
10-08-2013, 02:34 PM
So, the side that loses should shut up and grab their ankles, is that what you're basically saying. Because, since they lost, they lose the right to representation, right?
They don't have a right to extort.

Agravan
10-08-2013, 02:36 PM
They don't have a right to extort.

Representation on issues you're against is now extortion?

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 03:07 PM
Yes, but barring veterans from their unmanned memorials while they make the Mall ready for their supporters to have a demonstration, attacking old people who get off a bus to take pictures, shutting private businesses, and so on is not.

That's how Ravi's brain works.

Common
10-08-2013, 03:14 PM
So, the side that loses should shut up and grab their ankles, is that what you're basically saying. Because, since they lost, they lose the right to representation, right?

No they should not shutup and they most certainly should stand up for what they believe, unless it comes to the point they are making themselves look like total jackass's
Agravan youre way to intelligent not to realize that the teaparty faction in the house has pushed the leadership to try and void obamacare 44 times. They now have shutdown the govt at the behest of Ted Cruz to guess what, STOP OBAMACARE, this is after it was written and signed into law gone through the lower courts to appellate courts and then to the supreme court of the land which is slanted to the right and it was UPHELD!!!!!!!!!
The republican house has passed NOTHING to help the middleclass who is out of work and hurting, they have done nothing to help the country all they have done is cater to the HANDFULL or right wing assholes in the house.
I talk to alot of people aggravan I belong to alot of organizations and there are long time conservative republicans who are SICK AND TIRED of the Ted Cruz faction in govt.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 03:17 PM
Get a brain transplant and go take a civics class so you can understand how our deliberately divided government was designed to function. And that function includes the right and duty of the elected House to represent the interests of the constituents that elect it.

Which is what they are doing.

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 03:21 PM
This is what you are advocating, genius:


Should you decide to apply for health coverage through Maryland Health Connection, the information you supply in your application will be used to determine whether you are eligible for health and dental coverage offered through Maryland Health Connection and for insurance affordability programs. It also may be used to assist you in making a payment for the insurance plan you select, and for related automated reminders or other activities permitted by law. We will preserve the privacy of personal records and protect confidential or privileged information in full accordance with federal and State law. We will not sell your information to others. Any information that you provide to us in your application will be used only to carry out the functions of Maryland Health Connection. The only exception to this policy is that we may share information provided in your application with the appropriate authorities for law enforcement and audit activities.

In other words, what you are signing onto is telling you that the IRS agents you are handing control of your healthcare to can use the information against you.

After witnessing the same IRS deliberately abuse conservative applicants in the last election, you really do have to be a moron not to understand the implications of this.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-marketplace-personal-data-can-be-used-law-enforcement-and-audit-activities_762237.html

patrickt
10-08-2013, 03:55 PM
That's why the liberals take a hard line with unions whose very existence is based on extortion. That's why the network that is one of Barack Obama's "my media", MSNBC, has extortionist like Al Sharpton on board and are taking an extortionist like James Carville on board.

This extortionist nonsense is quite silly but the Obama's media will play along with it. The real extortionists are closing private businesses, closing public parks, and stopping people from looking at Mt. Rushmore in an effort to extort more, and more, and more.

Just remember Sen. Reid's motto, We Don't Need No Stinkin' Budget...or Debt Ceiling." Rep. Pelosi screams, Turn me loose, I'm going shopping. You'll get the bill later.

Fortunately, for liberals, they are allowed to make bribery a part of their assault. Got your Obamaphone, yet? Do you have someone else paying for your Obamacare?

Common
10-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Get a brain transplant and go take a civics class so you can understand how our deliberately divided government was designed to function. And that function includes the right and duty of the elected House to represent the interests of the constituents that elect it.



Which is what they are doing.

Know what maincoons you love to insult everyones intelligence in near every post you write. Im not going to take much more of your shit.

Chris
10-08-2013, 04:16 PM
Extort is the wrong word, though it might have emotional appeal to some.

Oppose is the right word. The Constitution frames a government for contention with checks and balances and power reserved to the states and the people.

Chris
10-08-2013, 04:17 PM
Know what maincoons you love to insult everyones intelligence in near every post you write. Im not going to take much more of your shit.



Look out!!!

keymanjim
10-08-2013, 05:04 PM
Know what maincoons you love to insult everyones intelligence in near every post you write. Im not going to take much more of your shit.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a128/keymanjim/Internet_b6df65_1012659_zps6b4161ec.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/keymanjim/media/Internet_b6df65_1012659_zps6b4161ec.jpg.html)

keymanjim
10-08-2013, 05:05 PM
Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently.
I don't know who you are quoting, but that idiot needs to learn what a Representative Republic is.

zelmo1234
10-08-2013, 05:12 PM
They had it. It was called the 2012 election. And the SCOTUS ruling. Everything else is extortion at this point.

Am I not mistaken or aren't you and Jillian the ones that are always talking about the tyranny of the majority, and that is why we have the form of government that we have today?

So what happened to this attitude?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0

Or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4NltWP2Lj8

So back when dissention was the thing to do, where you then, after all the people voted for GWB and he won bigger the second time than the first?

Why the change in attitude?

Codename Section
10-08-2013, 05:17 PM
ah... but that's not extortion... that's being "we the people"

(even if they're only about 25% of "the people")

Link please. :)

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Codename Section
10-08-2013, 05:39 PM
Here I started a thread on it: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17413-Sixty-Percent-of-Americans-Feel-the-Federal-Government-is-Too-Powerful

Dr. Who
10-08-2013, 06:12 PM
Get a brain transplant and go take a civics class so you can understand how our deliberately divided government was designed to function. And that function includes the right and duty of the elected House to represent the interests of the constituents that elect it.

Which is what they are doing.

Rule number one violation - no personal insults. Thank you.

Ravi
10-08-2013, 06:55 PM
Yes, but barring veterans from their unmanned memorials while they make the Mall ready for their supporters to have a demonstration, attacking old people who get off a bus to take pictures, shutting private businesses, and so on is not.

That's how Ravi's brain works.
Weren't you just kissing Clinton's ass because when newt shut down the gov vets bennies weren't paid?

Mainecoons
10-08-2013, 07:37 PM
Try that again in English this time?

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 07:43 PM
Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently.

WOW!!!!111!!1111!!!!!!!

WHAT AN EXCEPTIONAL POST!!


And this, folks, is why I keep saying this is a fucking Mickey Mouse board.

Thanks for proving my point Ravi. If this were a serious board, shit like this would be locked within an hour, and Ravi would be warned, then banned.

AmazonTania
10-08-2013, 07:56 PM
Most of the good forums are far to unbalanced ideologically, which is why I don't participate regularly (although I might if there were forums bias ideologically against me).

But yeah, this board is a joke. The only thing dumber than the threads are the people who post them.

Ravi
10-08-2013, 07:57 PM
WOW!!!!111!!1111!!!!!!!

WHAT AN EXCEPTIONAL POST!!


And this, folks, is why I keep saying this is a fucking Mickey Mouse board.

Thanks for proving my point Ravi. If this were a serious board, shit like this would be locked within an hour, and Ravi would be warned, then banned.dude are you a nazi or what?

Ravi
10-08-2013, 07:58 PM
Most of the good forums are far to unbalanced ideologically, which is why I don't participate regularly (although I might if there were forums bias ideologically against me).

But yeah, this board is a joke. The only thing dumber than the threads are the people who post them.now that is funny!

Cigar
10-08-2013, 08:00 PM
WOW!!!!111!!1111!!!!!!!

WHAT AN EXCEPTIONAL POST!!


And this, folks, is why I keep saying this is a fucking Mickey Mouse board.

Thanks for proving my point Ravi. If this were a serious board, shit like this would be locked within an hour, and Ravi would be warned, then banned.

If you dislike this board ... why are you here?

Really ... why are you a Member of a fucking Mickey Mouse board?

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 08:36 PM
If you dislike this board ... why are you here?

Really ... why are you a Member of a fucking Mickey Mouse board?

You ever seen a Prius get smashed by a semi leaving body parts scattered on the freeway? Its ugly, and grotesque, but you can't stop yourself from looking. You contort your face in horror, close one your left eye, peep through your squinted right eye, but something inside of you won't allow you to look away.

That's how I feel watching you try to articulate a point.

Dr. Who
10-08-2013, 08:45 PM
You ever seen a Prius get smashed by a semi leaving body parts scattered on the freeway? Its ugly, and grotesque, but you can't stop yourself from looking. You contort your face in horror, close one your left eye, peep through your squinted right eye, but something inside of you won't allow you to look away.

That's how I feel watching you try to articulate a point.
An unfortunate metaphor, because you don't leave your home looking for horror unless that's something you enjoy. You deliberately log on to this forum.

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 08:47 PM
An unfortunate metaphor, because you don't leave your home looking for horror unless that's something you enjoy. You deliberately log on to this forum.

You're right, you don't have to leave your home to find horror. A majority of Americans simply tune into the local news to see the horror. Also, I might note, a deliberate act. How would ratings be if they only reported on puppies and flowers?

Agravan
10-08-2013, 09:00 PM
If you dislike this board ... why are you here?

Really ... why are you a Member of a fucking Mickey Mouse board?

Because he can be.

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 09:10 PM
dude are you a nazi or what?

Calling you out for making shitty threads makes me a Nazi how?

Nothing was gained from your shitty OP. If this were a serious board (which it is not), this type of shit wouldn't be tolerated. This thread didn't teach anything, didn't change anyone's mind on where they stand politically, and didn't kick off an intelligent debate. I've made it a point to show that this forum is a joke, and I'm going to continue to call out the bullshit.

Dr. Who
10-08-2013, 09:15 PM
You're right, you don't have to leave your home to find horror. A majority of Americans simply tune into the local news to see the horror. Also, I might note, a deliberate act. How would ratings be if they only reported on puppies and flowers?

But if you have nothing but contempt for this place, and the people who post here, why log in, why post? If I felt the way you say you do, I wouldn't patronize this forum. It would compromise my integrity.

Chris
10-08-2013, 09:25 PM
WHo, I think you missed the point, we all leave home to purposely go places, but we don't go looking for accidents, they just happen, and obstruct getting where we want to go.

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 09:43 PM
But if you have nothing but contempt for this place, and the people who post here, why log in, why post? If I felt the way you say you do, I wouldn't patronize this forum. It would compromise my integrity.


I thought maybe the mods had stepped up by now. I just can't understand why the pointless shit is allowed to continue here. I'd bet this place has driven away countless legit members interested in discussions of real substance, instead of partisan bickering.

My posting history, notice the two month gap. I'll be back outta here in a couple days.


10-02-2013, 09:46 PM Thread: Ron Paul: Government shutdown is only a political event (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event) by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies53Views306

This. Yeah... The men who put their lives... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event?p=383306#post383306)
This.



Yeah... The men who put their lives on the line to stand up for their principles and who founded this great nation deserve zero respect. /sarcasm

Worthless shitheads like you are...



09-26-2013, 08:33 PM
Thread: Cruz Gets His Healthcare From - GOLDMAN SACHS (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS) by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies24Views252


Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS?p=377386#post377386)
Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read the news. Insurance is increasing. Keep living in your fucking fantasy land.




09-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Thread: War on Men (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men) by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies47Views421


Ransom, you are spot on. The war against men... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men?p=377376#post377376)
Ransom, you are spot on.

The war against men is being waged largely by men. Being a man is about doing the right thing, making sacrifices for those you care about, and honest work. We have...




07-25-2013, 10:01 PM
Thread: Sex addiction (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction) by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies55Views3,192


Poll: This statement on its own is not enough to draw... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction?p=334301#post334301)

oceanloverOH
10-08-2013, 09:43 PM
Another thread where the posters have expended more energy in sniping and backbiting than in actually posting any kind of adult opinion. Cool it or this one's headed for the Hole, too.

Dr. Who
10-08-2013, 10:25 PM
I thought maybe the mods had stepped up by now. I just can't understand why the pointless shit is allowed to continue here. I'd bet this place has driven away countless legit members interested in discussions of real substance, instead of partisan bickering.

My posting history, notice the two month gap. I'll be back outta here in a couple days.


10-02-2013, 09:46 PM Thread: Ron Paul: Government shutdown is only a political event (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies53Views306

This. Yeah... The men who put their lives... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event?p=383306#post383306)


This.



Yeah... The men who put their lives on the line to stand up for their principles and who founded this great nation deserve zero respect. /sarcasm

Worthless shitheads like you are...



09-26-2013, 08:33 PM
Thread: Cruz Gets His Healthcare From - GOLDMAN SACHS (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies24Views252


Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS?p=377386#post377386)


Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read the news. Insurance is increasing. Keep living in your fucking fantasy land.




09-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Thread: War on Men (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies47Views421


Ransom, you are spot on. The war against men... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men?p=377376#post377376)


Ransom, you are spot on.

The war against men is being waged largely by men. Being a man is about doing the right thing, making sacrifices for those you care about, and honest work. We have...




07-25-2013, 10:01 PM
Thread: Sex addiction (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies55Views3,192


Poll: This statement on its own is not enough to draw... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction?p=334301#post334301)



It's easy to spot the transgressions of the people that we don't agree with, but much harder to admit the transgression with those with whom we do agree. When you are on a forum of people who agree with each other, there is little acrimony, but when you are on a forum of disparate opinion, there is a greater need for emotional control and discourse ethics. You don't get mad at people who agree with you, it's how you behave with people who don't that is telling.

Peter1469
10-08-2013, 10:27 PM
I thought maybe the mods had stepped up by now. I just can't understand why the pointless shit is allowed to continue here. I'd bet this place has driven away countless legit members interested in discussions of real substance, instead of partisan bickering.

My posting history, notice the two month gap. I'll be back outta here in a couple days.


10-02-2013, 09:46 PM Thread: Ron Paul: Government shutdown is only a political event (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies53Views306

This. Yeah... The men who put their lives... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17172-Ron-Paul-Government-shutdown-is-only-a-political-event?p=383306#post383306)


This.



Yeah... The men who put their lives on the line to stand up for their principles and who founded this great nation deserve zero respect. /sarcasm

Worthless shitheads like you are...



09-26-2013, 08:33 PM
Thread: Cruz Gets His Healthcare From - GOLDMAN SACHS (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies24Views252


Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/17003-Cruz-Gets-His-Healthcare-From-GOLDMAN-SACHS?p=377386#post377386)


Lol. Still peddling the msnbc bullshit? Read the news. Insurance is increasing. Keep living in your fucking fantasy land.




09-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Thread: War on Men (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies47Views421


Ransom, you are spot on. The war against men... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/16956-War-on-Men?p=377376#post377376)


Ransom, you are spot on.

The war against men is being waged largely by men. Being a man is about doing the right thing, making sacrifices for those you care about, and honest work. We have...




07-25-2013, 10:01 PM
Thread: Sex addiction (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction)

by TheInternet (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/784-TheInternet)

Replies55Views3,192


Poll: This statement on its own is not enough to draw... (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/14942-Sex-addiction?p=334301#post334301)



Why don't you start your own forum, and then ban everyone? :wink:

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 10:31 PM
It's easy to spot the transgressions of the people that we don't agree with, but much harder to admit the transgression with those with whom we do agree. When you are on a forum of people who agree with each other, there is little acrimony, but when you are on a forum of disparate opinion, there is a greater need for emotional control and discourse ethics. You don't get mad at people who agree with you, it's how you behave with people who don't that is telling.

You've missed the mark again, doc. You think you have me pegged a certain way but you've only seen how I interact with opposition on this board. Other boards exist with members who can actually state their case in a reasonable manner. Those people don't aren't here. I don't handle incompetence well; and that's what I see from most of the lefties here.

TheInternet
10-08-2013, 10:34 PM
Why don't you start your own forum, and then ban everyone? :wink:


Haha. That'd be awesome. Did you ever watch the Drew Carey show? I'd be like his boss firing everyone.

In seriousness, there are some intelligent members here. But you have to cut through a lot to get to it.

Dr. Who
10-08-2013, 10:50 PM
You've missed the mark again, doc. You think you have me pegged a certain way but you've only seen how I interact with opposition on this board. Other boards exist with members who can actually state their case in a reasonable manner. Those people don't aren't here. I don't handle incompetence well; and that's what I see from most of the lefties here.

I'm not pegging you any way at all. I'm just suggesting that civility goes a long way to improve discourse. Of course there are people who don't rise to your expectations, but if they don't, then why bother with their posts and why bother insulting them. Why not set a better example. If everyone who wants to discuss in earnest ignored those who didn't, eventually those who didn't would get no responses. Those people would either leave or improve. It seems to me you are a small government person. You should appreciate a forum that is not excessively authoritarian.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 05:12 AM
Okay, I see no one wants to discuss the OP and instead we've been reduced to exploring The Internet's emotional state. Call me paranoid but I do believe his intent on this thread is to get it thrown into the hole because it makes Republicans look childish and ridiculous.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 06:49 AM
I'm not pegging you any way at all. I'm just suggesting that civility goes a long way to improve discourse. Of course there are people who don't rise to your expectations, but if they don't, then why bother with their posts and why bother insulting them. Why not set a better example. If everyone who wants to discuss in earnest ignored those who didn't, eventually those who didn't would get no responses. Those people would either leave or improve. It seems to me you are a small government person. You should appreciate a forum that is not excessively authoritarian.

Actually Dr. Who limited government means that you look to the marketplace and communities to constrain behavior, not government. If not we would have a free for all where everyone went around saying "Fuck you" instead of "Hello".

Society can and should promote polite behavior, honest discourse, and acknowledge labor.

I get along with people of all political points on the spectrum. You engage people who don't share your beliefs or don't share all of them so that they make you "quicker" and so that they can help you to refine your own arguments.

The key word being "engage". @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) and I could not be farther apart in our political beliefs but I enjoy engaging with her because she engages. There are one or two posters who do not participate in debate and I don't just find them useless, but they are actively discouraging debate.

It's like calling customer service and getting options that do not apply at all to what you are calling about. As this happens repeatedly, people hang up.

I understand the concept of the "ignore" button and I used it in the past on people on the unmoderated forum, but if you're going to have moderation then it seems to me the ignore button would be a vestigial artifact because the mods have the power to reach out to the poster and kindly encourage him or her to abide by the "good faith" rules.

That's my eight cents.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 06:52 AM
Okay, I see no one wants to discuss the OP and instead we've been reduced to exploring The Internet's emotional state. Call me paranoid but I do believe his intent on this thread is to get it thrown into the hole because it makes Republicans look childish and ridiculous.

What "OP"? It was a title and a single sentence that was comprised 100% of snark. What dialogue did you intend to engender with it? There was no link to "who" said it. You cannot rely on people who are not fanboys and fangurls to know that it was even said by Obama.

This was a troll thread. Plain and simple.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 06:57 AM
You ever seen a Prius get smashed by a semi leaving body parts scattered on the freeway? Its ugly, and grotesque, but you can't stop yourself from looking. You contort your face in horror, close one your left eye, peep through your squinted right eye, but something inside of you won't allow you to look away.

That's how I feel watching you try to articulate a point.

No ... I've never seen a Prius get smashed by a semi.

... and I don't freely join Internet Boards I don't like.

patrickt
10-09-2013, 07:11 AM
A: "http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Ravi http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=389532#post389532) Okay, I see no one wants to discuss the OP and instead we've been reduced to exploring The Internet's emotional state. Call me paranoid but I do believe his intent on this thread is to get it thrown into the hole because it makes Republicans look childish and ridiculous."

Okay, Ravi, let's discuss the actions of the extortionists. How about locking elderly tourists in a hotel for hours and then hauling them out of Yellowstone Park and denying them access to a bathroom for 2.5 hours. The extortionists did that and more. Care to discuss it, Ravi?

B. Civility. Oh, right, that's what liberals demand they receive but refuse to give. Does Senator Reid sound familiar. The lying, snotty son-of-a-bitch actually has the nerve to get up and talk about those people who aren't being civil. Go ahead, folks, and check your shoes to see if the smell is coming from liberal bullshit again. And the oh-so-civil King who trashes everyone who disagrees with him. Who whines that he won't negotiate and then whines even more because the terrorists, anarchists, baby-killers, and murderers who he won't negotiate with him don't negotiate. Hell, the King doesn't know the meaning of the words negotiate, compromise, or bipartisan. He doesn't even understand the word American. But, he's doing the best he can, poor little guy.

But, I am looking forward to Ravi discussing the extortionists in the White House.

jillian
10-09-2013, 07:11 AM
What "OP"? It was a title and a single sentence that was comprised 100% of snark. What dialogue did you intend to engender with it? There was no link to "who" said it. You cannot rely on people who are not fanboys and fangurls to know that it was even said by Obama.

This was a troll thread. Plain and simple.

i think Alyosha that we have to acknowledge that a good 2/3 of the thread titles on this board are intended to create rightwing high fives and are what you might call "troll threads". but i also think you have to acknowledge that we really do see the behavior of the far right as being extortionate. it's holding a gun to the head of the country and saying "give us what we want or we're taking you all down with us"... i know that isn't your view. but it is how a great many of us this these tactics.

if they want to re-open the government and raise the debt ceiling, i'm sure the dems would be pleased to conference, like they've been asking for ... for months prior to this situation.

p.s. we also see this situation as being intentionally orchestrated... you can disagree. but it is how a good many of us see this.

it's like a petulant child saying i'm going to burn the house down if you don't raise my allowance.

you don't give into that kind of thing. you can't... because then you're encouraging them.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 07:17 AM
Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently.

:icon_thumleft: There was an Campaign Platform the clearly said ... The President of The United States was for ObamaCare.

The President of The United States ran on that platform, the GOP ran against it.

There was an Election, their was a Winner.

There was a Supreme Court Ruling.

The GOP LOST

October 1st started ACA Registration and will continue through the next 23 Weeks.

ObamaCare is Law and here to stay ...

The GOP needs to GTF Over it ... or not ... it really doesn't matter and no one really cares.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 07:18 AM
i think @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) that we have to acknowledge that a good 2/3 of the thread titles on this board are intended to create rightwing high fives and are what you might call "troll threads". but i also think you have to acknowledge that we really do see the behavior of the far right as being extortionate. it's holding a gun to the head of the country and saying "give us what we want or we're taking you all down with us"... i know that isn't your view. but it is how a great many of us this these tactics.

if they want to re-open the government and raise the debt ceiling, i'm sure the dems would be pleased to conference, like they've been asking for ... for months prior to this situation.

p.s. we also see this situation as being intentionally orchestrated... you can disagree. but it is how a good many of us see this.

it's like a petulant child saying i'm going to burn the house down if you don't raise my allowance.

you don't give into that kind of thing. you can't... because then you're encouraging them.


1. No link
2. No quote (I had to google it to find out Obama said it)
3. Just a snark

If I started a thread the same way I would expect you of all people to tell me I was being a baby. kilgram is a 100% lefty, so is Impress Polly, both of them craft a discussion so you have something to reply to in dialogue form.

This way this was started all you can do is go: "Uhhh, no"...."Uhhhh, shut up"....<insert meme>

I dunno, I just prefer meat to bone.

patrickt
10-09-2013, 08:11 AM
Jillian: "if they want to re-open the government and raise the debt ceiling, i'm sure the dems would be pleased to conference, like they've been asking for ... for months prior to this situation."

All you have to do to get the extortionists off your back is...whatever they demand. In this case, unlimited borrowing, unlimited spending, unlimited debt. Give the kidnappers whatever they want.

But Jillian was right with this part: "it's like a petulant child saying i'm going to burn the house down if you don't raise my allowance. you don't give into that kind of thing. you can't... because then you're encouraging them."

And who, Jillian, is threatening all Americans if their allowance isn't raised? Is it the conservatives, Jillian? Demanding their allowance be raised. Terrible metaphor, Jillian. And if we raise their allowance without any restrictions, as the extortionists are demanding, aren't we all just encouraging the little brats? But, I don't blame President Obama. He's trying, poor dear.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 08:50 AM
What "OP"? It was a title and a single sentence that was comprised 100% of snark. What dialogue did you intend to engender with it? There was no link to "who" said it. You cannot rely on people who are not fanboys and fangurls to know that it was even said by Obama.

This was a troll thread. Plain and simple.Hey, good point. It was silly of me to expect posters on a political forum to keep up with current events.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 08:51 AM
A: "http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Ravi http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=389532#post389532) Okay, I see no one wants to discuss the OP and instead we've been reduced to exploring The Internet's emotional state. Call me paranoid but I do believe his intent on this thread is to get it thrown into the hole because it makes Republicans look childish and ridiculous."

Okay, Ravi, let's discuss the actions of the extortionists. How about locking elderly tourists in a hotel for hours and then hauling them out of Yellowstone Park and denying them access to a bathroom for 2.5 hours. The extortionists did that and more. Care to discuss it, Ravi?

B. Civility. Oh, right, that's what liberals demand they receive but refuse to give. Does Senator Reid sound familiar. The lying, snotty son-of-a-bitch actually has the nerve to get up and talk about those people who aren't being civil. Go ahead, folks, and check your shoes to see if the smell is coming from liberal bullshit again. And the oh-so-civil King who trashes everyone who disagrees with him. Who whines that he won't negotiate and then whines even more because the terrorists, anarchists, baby-killers, and murderers who he won't negotiate with him don't negotiate. Hell, the King doesn't know the meaning of the words negotiate, compromise, or bipartisan. He doesn't even understand the word American. But, he's doing the best he can, poor little guy.

But, I am looking forward to Ravi discussing the extortionists in the White House.

They had a toilet on their bus and were more than accommodated as they were given two entire days to leave the park. This constant lying from rightwingnutters is unproductive.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 08:53 AM
:icon_thumleft: There was an Campaign Platform the clearly said ... The President of The United States was for ObamaCare.

The President of The United States ran on that platform, the GOP ran against it.

There was an Election, their was a Winner.

There was a Supreme Court Ruling.

The GOP LOST

October 1st started ACA Registration and will continue through the next 23 Weeks.

ObamaCare is Law and here to stay ...

The GOP needs to GTF Over it ... or not ... it really doesn't matter and no one really cares.

And now they want to default. What a lesson that is to future generations. If things don't go your way, don't pay your bills. Next time one of them claims to be for personal responsibility will be laughed out of town.

Paperback Writer
10-09-2013, 09:11 AM
Hey, good point. It was silly of me to expect posters on a political forum to keep up with current events.

Current events, yes, quotes, no. That would be absurd to expect every human to record every conversation mentally in their head at all time for regurgitation purposes.

It was insufficient to begin a thread that would engender dialogue as opposed to high-fiving and back-biting.

Yanks, must we Brits teach you about political debates?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bhpXhxP-WU

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 09:45 AM
Hey, good point. It was silly of me to expect posters on a political forum to keep up with current events.

Hey, not a good point. It was stupid of you to post a quote and expect us to guess which Democrat said it if your intention was to get people to discuss it.

Chris
10-09-2013, 09:57 AM
You've missed the mark again, doc. You think you have me pegged a certain way but you've only seen how I interact with opposition on this board. Other boards exist with members who can actually state their case in a reasonable manner. Those people don't aren't here. I don't handle incompetence well; and that's what I see from most of the lefties here.



I think the mark is missed in trying to peg people to ideologies or parties such that Reps and Dems, cons and libs, religious and none, etc, will naturally fight. Things just ain't that black and white. I see people who have no problem talking across those supposed lines. Yes, we disagree, but I think that's being confused with disagreeableness.

The problem is not politics, economics, religion or anything like that. It's temperament, some are seek and are capable of discussion, some not, some don't even want that.

But what other than for the purpose of discussion ruled by commonsense discourse ethics is a forum that declares itself dedicated to a mission as "We wish to promote "world class" political discussion and these rules are intended to assist in that goal."

junie
10-09-2013, 10:13 AM
Hey, not a good point. It was stupid of you to post a quote and expect us to guess which Democrat said it if your intention was to get people to discuss it.


it was actually breaking news and made headlines the moment the president spoke it, but of course not everyone could be immediately up to speed yet.

are you contending that extortion is a false characterization of what the republicans are doing?


"We can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy"



"Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently. "

Chris
10-09-2013, 10:21 AM
Part of the troll is in the partisan implication of the OP post that the thread title is fact when it's just one way to spin the facts.

zelmo1234
10-09-2013, 10:27 AM
it was actually breaking news and made headlines the moment the president spoke it, but of course not everyone could be immediately up to speed yet.

are you contending that extortion is a false characterization of what the republicans are doing?


"We can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy"


"Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently. "



When are they going to have these debates?

In the past these arguments were just as nasty but they did not center around the Debt ceiling increases and CR's were for things that were not part of everyday spending.

The were fought out just as hard, but around the Budget battles, and there were some nasty ones.

but were have a President and Senate leader that will not fulfill their responsibility to produce a budget?

So where are you going to have these battles.

I watch Senator Reid say that after they have their funding and the debt ceiling raised they will talk about anything.

Well of course they will, they will not have to change anything, they already have it funded. Do you really think that the Democrats after getting their Christmas list fully filled, we say, you know what you are right we don't need that program so lets cut it?

Have you ever known a Democrat to advocate spending cuts?

Polosie has said that there is not on cent that can be cut, and Reid already said he is not interested in having a budget?

This is the only venue to force the democrats to do what is right and cut some of the waste.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 10:32 AM
Part of the troll is in the partisan implication of the OP post that the thread title is fact when it's just one way to spin the facts.
:rolleyes: What is up with you running around calling people trolls all the time? If you don't like a thread, ignore it. Or report it. Or whine some more.

Mainecoons
10-09-2013, 10:33 AM
Truth hurts, eh?

:rofl:

Captain Obvious
10-09-2013, 10:34 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.

Chris
10-09-2013, 10:47 AM
:rolleyes: What is up with you running around calling people trolls all the time? If you don't like a thread, ignore it. Or report it. Or whine some more.

Why are you whining, ravi? And brush up on your English, will ya, I didn't call anyone a troll, I called the OP (opening post) a troll: "Part of the troll is in the partisan implication of the OP post that the thread title is fact when it's just one way to spin the facts."

Or is it you just don't want to respond to that so you make up something else you can play at beating the straw out of?

Chris
10-09-2013, 10:49 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.



Exactly. That would make more interesting discussion! Or the emotional appeal of buss words.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:04 AM
it was actually breaking news and made headlines the moment the president spoke it, but of course not everyone could be immediately up to speed yet.

are you contending that extortion is a false characterization of what the republicans are doing?


"We can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy"

"Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently. "



What was breaking news? The president whining again? That happens daily.

Search Results

ex·tor·tion
ikˈstôrSHən/
noun
noun: extortion; plural noun: extortions
1.
the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats



What are they "obtaining"? Nothing. They sent a budget to the Senate, per the Constitution. The Senate said "no, no, no, no".

The Tea Party reps are trying to perform the will of their constituents that elected them. That is how a Republic or Democratic Republic functions. Hence why we don't have only a Senate or why we don't have direct democracy.

The fact that most of you have no concept of what a Republican form of government is or how it is to function is not my problem nor the problem of the House of Representatives.

Sorry about it.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 11:06 AM
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoons/HorseD/2013/HorseD20131009_low.jpg

They backed themselves into a corner :laugh:

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:06 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.


Hear, hear! It only shows a lack of their own understanding of the concepts when they refuse to engage. It's a fear of extending oneself and being wrong.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:06 AM
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoons/HorseD/2013/HorseD20131009_low.jpg

They backed themselves into a corner :laugh:



Ohhhh, showing your classism are we now? ((smirks)) Figured as much.

Mister D
10-09-2013, 11:07 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.

The extremist rhetoric is tiresome. It seems like nothing can be discussed here without it.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:07 AM
:rolleyes: What is up with you running around calling people trolls all the time? If you don't like a thread, ignore it. Or report it. Or whine some more.

What's up with you never having anything to say but only asking questions all the time?

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:08 AM
The extremist rhetoric is tiresome. It seems like nothing can be discussed here without it.

It's neurolinguistics...effective but dishonest.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 11:29 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.

Interesting take. After how many years of negotiating over the ACA?

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:31 AM
Interesting take. After how many years of negotiating over the ACA?

"We won, we won" isn't negotiating.

junie
10-09-2013, 11:35 AM
What was breaking news? The president whining again? That happens daily.

Search Results

ex·tor·tion
ikˈstôrSHən/
noun
noun: extortion; plural noun: extortions
1.
the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats



What are they "obtaining"? Nothing. They sent a budget to the Senate, per the Constitution. The Senate said "no, no, no, no".

The Tea Party reps are trying to perform the will of their constituents that elected them. That is how a Republic or Democratic Republic functions. Hence why we don't have only a Senate or why we don't have direct democracy.

The fact that most of you have no concept of what a Republican form of government is or how it is to function is not my problem nor the problem of the House of Representatives.

Sorry about it.



it will be the problem of all citizens if we default, and the will of the so-called tea party constituency is and always has been in the minority. :rollseyes:

i am well aware how our system works, but don't let that get in the way of your mudslinging...




"While the health care law is not directly tied to funding the government -- the CR -- or paying bills already incurred -- the debt ceiling -- it is being used as a powerful bargaining chip.


A group of Republicans, led by freshman Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, despises the health care law so much that it is willing to risk government shutdown or default.

While 41 previous attempts to repeal, defund or stop the law haven't worked, the group hopes efforts to link it to these two pieces of must-pass legislation will."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/24/politics/shutdown-debt-limit-obamacare-difference/index.html






Here is what happened. After a year of deliberation and wrangling, the Democratic-controlled House and Senate each passed a different version of health care reform in 2009. On November 7, the House passed its version of the bill on a 220-to-215 vote. On December 23, the Senate voted 60 to 39 to end debate on the bill, eliminating the possibility of a filibuster by opponents. The bill then passed on a party-line vote of 60 to 39 the next day.


Soon after the Senate passed the Affordable Care Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act), Scott Brown was elected to take Ted Kennedy’s seat and the Democrats consequently lost their filibuster proof 60 votes in the Senate. Consequently, the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, and instead approve the Senate-passed bill. They knew they could not get an amended bill passed by the Senate since they would not have 60 votes to end a Republican filibuster. However, a number of House Democrats who had reluctantly backed the president on health care reform didn’t like a number of provisions in the Senate version of the bill such as a provision that would have provided a higher rate of Medicaid reimbursements for Nebraska – the so-called “Cornhusker Kickback” that was designed to win the support of Democratic senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska.


House Speaker Pelosi made a deal to get the reluctant Democrats to go along with passing the Senate version of the bill. If they would vote for the Senate bill, then the Democratic leadership agreed to immediately introduce and pass separate legislation under Budget Reconciliation amending the Affordable Care Act to address those members’ grievances. The House passed the Senate bill on March 21, 2010 by a vote of 219 to 212. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act) was signed into law by Obama on March 23, 2010.


Pelosi then introduced the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_20 10)
to make changes to the Affordable Care Act. The Democrats used reconciliation to pass the amendments. On March 26, 2010, the Senate approved the amendments, 56 to 43, and the House passed them, 220 to 207. Obama signed the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_20 10) into law on March 30, 2010.


So Obamacare—The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act—was actually passed in normal fashion without the use of Budget Reconciliation. However, Democrats did use Budget Reconciliation to amend the Act shortly after it was signed into law.


Can the Republicans really use Budget Reconciliation to repeal Obamacare?


Answer: They may be able to use Budget Reconciliation to repeal some parts of the law but probably not all of the law but then only if they win control of the Senate and the White House and retain control of the House.


Under Senate rules, the Budget Reconciliation process cannot be used if the bill:




does not produce a change in outlays or revenues;
produces an outlay increase or revenue decrease when the instructed committee is not in compliance with its instructions;
is outside the jurisdiction of the committee that submitted the title or provision for inclusion in the reconciliation measure;
produces a change in outlays or revenues which is merely incidental to the non-budgetary components of the provision;
would increase the deficit for a fiscal year beyond those covered by the reconciliation measure; and
would make changes in Social Security.



Some portions, and perhaps all, of the Affordable Care Act may be immune to attack via Budget Reconciliation because they fall under these restrictions. For, example, the current law reduces the deficit over time. Any changes might result in increasing the deficit which would not be allowed under Budget Reconciliation. Also, provisions of the act like restrictions on insurance companies being able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions probably would be exempt since they don’t produce a change in federal outlays or revenues. The Senate’s Parliamentarian, Elizabeth MacDonough will have to rule on whether the changes in any repeal legislation met the requirements for Budget Reconciliation. If she reuled they did not, the Republicans would need 60 votes to override her ruling, something Republicans would not get.


However, many of the key provisions of the law – including the individual mandate to purchase health insurance, the creation of insurance exchanges where low-income families can buy subsidized policies, and Medicare and Medicaid funding measures –probably would meet the reconciliation requirements.


In short, the Republicans probably could repeal some, but not all, of Obamacare using Budget Reconciliation. Unfortunately, the provisions they could repeal would be some of the most critical to the operation of the law.


In short, the best way to protect Obamacare is to make sure that Obama is re-elected so he can veto any legislation Republicans might pass to repeal the law. And, NO--the Democrats DID NOT use Budget Reconciliation to pass the original law.


http://www.theattackdemocrat.com/2012/07/fact-check-budget-reconciliation-and.html




^ pssst he won the election!

(that means the majority voted for him while knowing the ACA was at stake, in case you didn't realize..repeal was mitt's platform!) :laugh:



Obama: 'I Apologize' for Constant Crises, but We Can't 'Make Extortion Routine'

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/10/watch-live-obama-addresses-government-shutdown/70310/

oh my! just look at all those damn trolling newswires... :laughing4:

Mister D
10-09-2013, 11:35 AM
It's neurolinguistics...effective but dishonest.

Many people don't even seem to understand the issues they're discussing. All they know is the position their party or ideological camp has taken. That is of course the "right" position. :rollseyes:

junie
10-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Funny how it's "extortion" when the opposition uses it but it's "negotiation" when you're party uses it.

Funny how that works. Also funny how buzz words are strategically put out there for sheep to recite like a mantra.

Don't you people get bored with all of this "gotcha" demonization or is it that you're just not sharp enough to discuss these things objectively and intelligently? It says a lot about a persons character when everything is a political mud sling to them.



funny how posting a live quote from a presidential speech can cause such mudslinging and demonizing toward the messenger, huh? :laughing4:

Ravi
10-09-2013, 11:37 AM
it will be the problem of all citizens if we default, and the will of the so-called tea party constituency is and always has been in the minority. :rollseyes:

i am well aware how our system works, but don't let that get in the way of your mudslinging...




"While the health care law is not directly tied to funding the government -- the CR -- or paying bills already incurred -- the debt ceiling -- it is being used as a powerful bargaining chip.


A group of Republicans, led by freshman Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, despises the health care law so much that it is willing to risk government shutdown or default.
While 41 previous attempts to repeal, defund or stop the law haven't worked, the group hopes efforts to link it to these two pieces of must-pass legislation will."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/24/politics/shutdown-debt-limit-obamacare-difference/index.html







^ pssst he won the election!

(that means the majority voted for him while knowing the ACA was at stake, in case you didn't realize..repeal was mitt's platform!) :laugh:



Obama: 'I Apologize' for Constant Crises, but We Can't 'Make Extortion Routine'

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/10/watch-live-obama-addresses-government-shutdown/70310/

oh my! just look at all those damn trolling newswires... :laughing4:
Exactly. That is why this word extortion so perfectly fits what the Cruz Zombies are doing.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:39 AM
it will be the problem of all citizens if we default, and the will of the so-called tea party constituency is and always has been in the minority. :rollseyes:

i am well aware how our system works,

Then why act as if you didn't?



but don't let that get in the way of your mudslinging...


What mud did I sling? Please show me the mud. Assertions require proof.




"While the health care law is not directly tied to funding the government -- the CR -- or paying bills already incurred -- the debt ceiling -- it is being used as a powerful bargaining chip.



Before we go further: what is the debt ceiling?

I want to be sure that you can articulate what the debt ceiling is because I'm not sure based on what you presented and your assertion that you do, in fact, know.

junie
10-09-2013, 11:40 AM
Exactly. That is why this word extortion so perfectly fits what the Cruz Zombies are doing.



FTR, i voted for scott brown. (as you know...) :wink:

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:43 AM
Exactly. That is why this word extortion so perfectly fits what the Cruz Zombies are doing.


So you feel that no other issue was at stake in the last election, just Obamacare? Or are you trying to present this fallacy as fact.

Please provide some sort of exit poll of the people that states they voted for Obama because of Obamacare or else this is just opinion being distributed as fact. I'll wait with the exit polls I have since you made your implication first.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 11:44 AM
http://whatwouldjackdo.net/images/love-demo.jpg

Ravi
10-09-2013, 11:45 AM
So you feel that no other issue was at stake in the last election, just Obamacare? Or are you trying to present this fallacy as fact.

Please provide some sort of exit poll of the people that states they voted for Obama because of Obamacare or else this is just opinion being distributed as fact. I'll wait with the exit polls I have since you made your implication first.
Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Chris
10-09-2013, 11:46 AM
funny how posting a live quote from a presidential speech can cause such mudslinging and demonizing toward the messenger, huh? :laughing4:


Obama mudslung and demonized himself using such weasel buzz words. What, you think the Prez is above trolling?

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 11:48 AM
Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I thought you liked it. You do it so often to others. I'm sorry you were offended by me doing that.

Ravi
10-09-2013, 11:49 AM
http://whatwouldjackdo.net/images/love-demo.jpg
It's like Cruz gave the Republicans a hammer to use to put the final nails in their coffin and they are banging away on the last nail. :)

Chris
10-09-2013, 11:53 AM
It's like Cruz gave the Republicans a hammer to use to put the final nails in their coffin and they are banging away on the last nail. :)

I'm trying to picture that, Reps inside a coffin but somehow outside hammering.

Cigar
10-09-2013, 11:56 AM
It's like Cruz gave the Republicans a hammer to use to put the final nails in their coffin and they are banging away on the last nail. :)

Can't you tell how it's affecting the faithful here on the Forum ... they are besides themselves lately.

... and I Love it. :laugh:

Cigar
10-09-2013, 12:00 PM
I'm trying to picture that, Reps inside a coffin but somehow outside hammering.

Teddy is outside doing all the work ... the wing-nuts are in the inside

junie
10-09-2013, 12:10 PM
Teddy is outside doing all the work ... the wing-nuts are in the inside



lol some people can be such literal semantic positivists... :tongue:

4233

Chris
10-09-2013, 12:16 PM
lol some people can be such literal semantic positivists... :tongue:

4233

And some people just butcher the language. Stick to quoting opinion agree with yours.

Mainecoons
10-09-2013, 12:18 PM
They may not be the only ones hammering.

http://vetmarch.com/#sign

As you know, I think Bonehead made a really stupid move here with this shutdown. However, I think it is also becoming increasingly evident that Obama's mean-spirited and heavy handed attempted mugging of the people isn't doing too well either. I see that his polling is headed south and there is more and more defiance of his government out there.

Bring it on! Wish the hell I could be there. Too bad we can't send 3 million there with pitchforks and clean house of all of them.

Paperback Writer
10-09-2013, 12:56 PM
And some people just butcher the language. Stick to quoting opinion agree with yours.

Yes, quite. I'm uncertain as to how any of that interchange was worthy of an Internet "high five". It really reflects poorly on the level of discourse that Americans feel worthy of celebre'.

Chris
10-09-2013, 01:20 PM
Yes, quite. I'm uncertain as to how any of that interchange was worthy of an Internet "high five". It really reflects poorly on the level of discourse that Americans feel worthy of celebre'.

Maybe a low four.

Peter1469
10-09-2013, 03:15 PM
The extremist rhetoric is tiresome. It seems like nothing can be discussed here without it.


It comes and goes. It has been at a high point the last few days.

jillian
10-09-2013, 03:17 PM
It comes and goes. It has been at a high point the last few days.

you don't find it a bit er... disingenuous that he's the one complaining about the rhetoric?

Mister D
10-09-2013, 03:19 PM
you don't find it a bit er... disingenuous that he's the one complaining about the rhetoric?

Why would he? I can provide several examples of your crazy rhetoric. Whenever I ask for examples of my racism etc. you bolt like a scared rabbit. You really do have an appropriate avatar.

jillian
10-09-2013, 03:20 PM
Why would he? I can provide several examples of your crazy rhetoric. Whenever I ask for examples of my racism etc. you bolt like a scared rabbit. You really do have an appropriate avatar.

i'm talking about your insane rhetoric.

thanks for proving my point.

now run along.

Mister D
10-09-2013, 03:22 PM
i'm talking about your insane rhetoric.

thanks for proving my point.

now run along.

I didn't think you could provide an example. I doubt Peter is surprised either.

Chris
10-09-2013, 03:26 PM
Green Arrow, same growing up here?

Peter1469
10-09-2013, 03:28 PM
you don't find it a bit er... disingenuous that he's the one complaining about the rhetoric?

To get back on topic, there was a comment made above that not raising the debt ceiling will cause a default..., why? (It has been answered in another thread, by Main I think.)

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 03:32 PM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), same growing up here?

What I said in the other thread applies to all threads. I like you, and I like jillian. I don't like to see good threads (or bad threads with good potential) devolve into silly bickering. I almost completely left another site for this place to get away from that sort of thing.

jillian
10-09-2013, 03:36 PM
To get back on topic, there was a comment made above that not raising the debt ceiling will cause a default..., why? (It has been answered in another thread, by Main I think.)

he made himself the subject. perhaps he should stop.

but in response to your question: reality of a default:


We would see interest rates spike across the board. We'd see a huge crash in the dollar. People count on lending their money to the federal government and getting it back, and if that trust is taken away -- it's never happened that we haven't met our obligations as a nation -- then that has very, very negative consequences for the U.S. economy."The consequences are so severe that, even as the government shutdown (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57606243/boehner-not-enough-votes-for-clean-spending-bill-to-end-shutdown/) enters its second week, most seasoned political observers still expect Congress to ultimately reach an eleventh-hour deal to lift the government's borrowing limit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57606253/debt-ceiling-understanding-whats-at-stake/

it's kind of like that whole run on the banks thing that started the great depression.

we are the base currency for the world... we are probably the only nation whose bonds don't say "what to do in case of a default"... and companies are already selling off our T-notes.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/deadlock-worry-jolts-the-market-for-t-bills/?_r=0

Chris
10-09-2013, 03:39 PM
What I said in the other thread applies to all threads. I like you, and I like jillian. I don't like to see good threads (or bad threads with good potential) devolve into silly bickering. I almost completely left another site for this place to get away from that sort of thing.



Here's the problem then, in the other thread it was my question that triggered the ugliness, here it's the same ugliness from the same two but it's D's comment, elsewhere mainecoon's, willow's, venus, patrick, pjohns,--need I go on?

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 03:44 PM
Here's the problem then, in the other thread it was my question that triggered the ugliness, here it's the same ugliness from the same two but it's D's comment, elsewhere mainecoon's, willow's, venus, patrick, pjohns,--need I go on?

I'm not concerned with that. People need to stop making things personal, no matter who they are making it personal to. I got personal with Cigar the other day and got convicted, we'll say. All that stuff does is create animosity and devolve discussions.

(I will say, though, that patrickt kinda deserves it. He used to hound me and Alyosha on another forum all the time, every thread we posted in, just to attack us personally, all because I once told him he made things up.)

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 03:45 PM
I don't see jillian or Chris as the problem. If you note they actually respond with information. That's usually how debates are supposed to work. I'll take my dose of snark and name calling as long as there is information contained within it.

Thomas Jefferson called his best friend, or alluded to it, a hermaphrodite when they ran opposite each other. Back then shit got real. However, both men could back up their claims and assertions.

I don't see that from other some posters on here, but I won't name names.

Cthulhu
10-09-2013, 03:47 PM
Well, you can if you're a Republican apparently.

Having just recently experienced it first hand in court. I assure, extortion is standard procedure in the legal system, politics is no different.

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 03:47 PM
I don't see @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) or @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) as the problem. If you note they actually respond with information. That's usually how debates are supposed to work. I'll take my dose of snark and name calling as long as there is information contained within it.

Well, I'm new, but I don't often see information contained in it, except that Chris is apparently a meanie poopy head and jillian has cooties.


I don't see that from other some posters on here, but I won't name names.

I'm sure we'd agree with the names.

hanger4
10-09-2013, 04:02 PM
he made himself the subject. perhaps he should stop.

but in response to your question: reality of a default:



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57606253/debt-ceiling-understanding-whats-at-stake/

it's kind of like that whole run on the banks thing that started the great depression.

we are the base currency for the world... we are probably the only nation whose bonds don't say "what to do in case of a default"... and companies are already selling off our T-notes.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/deadlock-worry-jolts-the-market-for-t-bills/?_r=0

Why do we think we're going into default if the debt-ceiling isn't raised ??

Is this the lefts talking points ??

Chris
10-09-2013, 04:02 PM
I don't see jillian or Chris as the problem. If you note they actually respond with information. That's usually how debates are supposed to work. I'll take my dose of snark and name calling as long as there is information contained within it.

Thomas Jefferson called his best friend, or alluded to it, a hermaphrodite when they ran opposite each other. Back then shit got real. However, both men could back up their claims and assertions.

I don't see that from other some posters on here, but I won't name names.


I try. But, yes, I think the general distinction between a contributor and a disturber is whether they generally post information, which could be an opinion, and explanation, an argument, what have you. As to snarkiness, I'm not sure what that contributes to discussion.

Jefferson and Adams hated each other until later in life.

Chris
10-09-2013, 04:05 PM
Well, I'm new, but I don't often see information contained in it, except that Chris is apparently a meanie poopy head and jillian has cooties.



I'm sure we'd agree with the names.



http://i.snag.gy/N8Dlk.jpg

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 04:09 PM
http://i.snag.gy/N8Dlk.jpg

Just so we're clear, I was trying for humor in characterizing jillian's feelings of you and yours of her. I don't actually think you're a meanie poopy head :tongue:

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 04:09 PM
I try. But, yes, I think the general distinction between a contributor and a disturber is whether they generally post information, which could be an opinion, and explanation, an argument, what have you. As to snarkiness, I'm not sure what that contributes to discussion.

Jefferson and Adams hated each other until later in life.

No, they were best friends until the election then they were best friends again later.

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 04:11 PM
No, they were best friends until the election then they were best friends again later.

I never understood why they were friends, honestly. They were diametrically opposed. Jefferson and Madison almost seceded Virginia and Kentucky when Adams was President, all because Adams passed the evil Alien and Sedition Acts. Jefferson did this while he was Adams' VP, no less. Jefferson wanted maximum freedom for all, Adams was a borderline tyrant.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 04:15 PM
I never understood why they were friends, honestly. They were diametrically opposed. Jefferson and Madison almost seceded Virginia and Kentucky when Adams was President, all because Adams passed the evil Alien and Sedition Acts. Jefferson did this while he was Adams' VP, no less. Jefferson wanted maximum freedom for all, Adams was a borderline tyrant.

Opposites attract, or principled opposites attract, I mean.

Chris
10-09-2013, 04:34 PM
Just so we're clear, I was trying for humor in characterizing jillian's feelings of you and yours of her. I don't actually think you're a meanie poopy head :tongue:



I do. I recognize and appreciate your desire to promote meaningful discussion. And I don't mind a nudge or even a noogie as I need it sometimes.

http://i.snag.gy/AF1PV.jpg

Chris
10-09-2013, 04:36 PM
No, they were best friends until the election then they were best friends again later.


Remember that video clip from the miniseries John Adams? They were pretty contentious there, though certainly still civil compared to the election.

jillian
10-09-2013, 04:37 PM
Having just recently experienced it first hand in court. I assure, extortion is standard procedure in the legal system, politics is no different.

You weren't extorted. You violated the law.

Whatever happened to "personal responsibility". There's a pretty good reason for lower speed limits in work areas. But even if there were no good reason, it's not up to you to decide what is a good law and what isn't. And part of choosing to violate a law is paying the consequences.

Alyosha
10-09-2013, 04:38 PM
You weren't extorted. You violated the law.

Whatever happened to "personal responsibility". There's a pretty good reason for lower speed limits in work areas. But even if there were no good reason, it's not up to you to decide what is a good law and what isn't. And part of choosing to violate a law is paying the consequences.


That is true, Dr. King and James Farmer violated many laws they felt were unjust and spent time in jail for it.

Cthulhu
10-09-2013, 06:51 PM
You weren't extorted. You violated the law.

Stuff it. You weren't there, you didn't see what happened in the court room. It reeks of bullshit both high and low.

They may as well replace the words "fair and meaningful trial" with "obligatory charade in order to justify theft".



Whatever happened to "personal responsibility". There's a pretty good reason for lower speed limits in work areas. But even if there were no good reason, it's not up to you to decide what is a good law and what isn't. And part of choosing to violate a law is paying the consequences.

I'm eating personal responsibility. Just as they will, when I am finished brooding and begin planning.

I disagree with the verdict, I don't have to smile about it.

And on another note, yes it is my place to decide whether a law is good or not. And if enough people would rally behind me, we can change the law and let the world know just how lame it really is. But the public spectrum is not where a creature like me belongs.

Codename Section
10-09-2013, 07:46 PM
I speed all the time, but I know how to do it so I'm always behind someone who speeds less. Plus there's that technology...

The law has not stopped me, but then I'm a better driver than the idiots in the slow lane (which still goes 55 -- fast enough to kill) without my reflexes.

Green Arrow
10-09-2013, 07:49 PM
I speed all the time, but I know how to do it so I'm always behind someone who speeds less. Plus there's that technology...

The law has not stopped me, but then I'm a better driver than the idiots in the slow lane (which still goes 55 -- fast enough to kill) without my reflexes.

I've found that most of the time, unless you're driving faster than a NASCAR driver or it's the end of the month, cops don't care to stop you. I usually go 10-15 miles over the speed limit (hey, in Tennessee, it's the flow of traffic :tongue:), and the only time I got pulled over while speeding, it was 'cause I also ran a stop sign while a cop car was in the other lane, driving in the opposite direction. He didn't ticket me, either, despite having expired tags and speeding.

Mister D
10-09-2013, 07:54 PM
That is true, Dr. King and James Farmer violated many laws they felt were unjust and spent time in jail for it.

Ouch

Chris
10-09-2013, 08:12 PM
Stuff it. You weren't there, you didn't see what happened in the court room. It reeks of bullshit both high and low.

They may as well replace the words "fair and meaningful trial" with "obligatory charade in order to justify theft".



I'm eating personal responsibility. Just as they will, when I am finished brooding and begin planning.

I disagree with the verdict, I don't have to smile about it.

And on another note, yes it is my place to decide whether a law is good or not. And if enough people would rally behind me, we can change the law and let the world know just how lame it really is. But the public spectrum is not where a creature like me belongs.



Agree, we are the final arbiters of justice. Especially when the court systems sucks much as it does.

bladimz
10-10-2013, 11:04 AM
Opposites attract, or principled opposites attract, I mean.Adams' and Jefferson's friendship rose abovetheir opposing views. It's called a genuine respect for each other's beliefs and comprehensive skills. These guys didn't ever hate each other: they battled each other, they opposed each other, and they beat up on each other, but they didn't hate each other.

It's kind of like watching professional football players who brutalize each other on the field. After the game, their smiling, giving each other a back-slap. You can tell there's a friendship there. Built usually on respect and recognition of the other's abilities.

jillian
10-10-2013, 11:14 AM
Stuff it. You weren't there, you didn't see what happened in the court room. It reeks of bullshit both high and low.

it was traffic court. you're not exactly being tried in a death penalty case. you are entitled to "due" process... not the process you *think* you want. and that process that is *due* is based on the level of imposition on your rights and the governmental interest in the reg.


They may as well replace the words "fair and meaningful trial" with "obligatory charade in order to justify theft"

you weren't tried criminally. you aren't entitled to any trial under the sixth amendment. only under whatever administrative procedure act exists in your state.


es it is my place to decide whether a law is good or not. And if enough people would rally behind me, we can change the law and let the world know just how lame it really is. But the public spectrum is not where a creature like me belongs.

no. it is not your place. there's an awful lot of discretion in setting speed limits.

the world would think you're being a baby. pay the two dollars as the old timers used to say.

and if you don't choose to obey speed limits, you pay the fine.

Chris
10-10-2013, 11:15 AM
Adams' and Jefferson's friendship rose abovetheir opposing views. It's called a genuine respect for each other's beliefs and comprehensive skills. These guys didn't ever hate each other: they battled each other, they opposed each other, and they beat up on each other, but they didn't hate each other.

It's kind of like watching professional football players who brutalize each other on the field. After the game, their smiling, giving each other a back-slap. You can tell there's a friendship there. Built usually on respect and recognition of the other's abilities.


Today's politicians, pundits and press go way beyond that, there's genuine hate in the vitriol now.

jillian
10-10-2013, 11:16 AM
That is true, Dr. King and James Farmer violated many laws they felt were unjust and spent time in jail for it.

yes. which is always why i had more respect for manning than i did for that pissant snowden who ran to that bastion of transparency, russia.

that said, this isn't a battle for civil rights. he was speeding and had to pay a fine.

it's not even like he's saying he wasn't speeding.

Alyosha
10-10-2013, 11:18 AM
yes. which is always why i had more respect for manning than i did for that pissant snowden who ran to that bastion of transparency, russia.

They caught Manning. Military, hello?

And why should Snowden stay and be railroaded for doing the right thing and helping all of us. Hell, Russia's like the people who harbored Ann Frank's family from the Nazis.

We're out of control with this shit. Out of control. The head of the NSA admitted that they lied. Admitted it. WTF?

jillian
10-10-2013, 11:19 AM
They caught Manning. Military, hello?

And why should Snowden stay and be railroaded for doing the right thing and helping all of us. Hell, Russia's like the people who harbored Ann Frank's family from the Nazis.

We're out of control with this shit. Out of control. The head of the NSA admitted that they lied. Admitted it. WTF?

but he didn't leave the country after dumping his docs.

as for russia, BS... putin's an opportunistic little bastard who got four laptops full of our documents.

bladimz
10-10-2013, 11:38 AM
Today's politicians, pundits and press go way beyond that, there's genuine hate in the vitriol now.Maybe that's why there's such push-and-pull over a constitution written 250 years ago by men of a very different era for men of a very different era. I guess that most people know that the oldest constitution still in use is the US Constitution. You can come to your own conclusions about that... Why is this? I'd love to see responses. The only one that i'll genuinely LOL at is "because America's the greatest country in the world!!"

Chris
10-10-2013, 11:50 AM
Maybe that's why there's such push-and-pull over a constitution written 250 years ago by men of a very different era for men of a very different era. I guess that most people know that the oldest constitution still in use is the US Constitution. You can come to your own conclusions about that... Why is this? I'd love to see responses. The only one that i'll genuinely LOL at is "because America's the greatest country in the world!!"

The Constitution sets forth principles of government as good then as they are today were those principles applied.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:29 PM
The Constitution sets forth principles of government as good then as they are today were those principles applied.

Except for the fact that the constitution creates a strong, centralized government, with language just vague enough in some areas to allow for growth and abuse.

If it were up to me, we'd scrap the whole thing and start over, and the very first article after the preamble would be the Tenth Amendment, expanded.

Mainecoons
10-10-2013, 12:31 PM
I think the problem is more that the 10th has not been adhered to.

You're right, though, it should be at the core of the Constitution, not an add on.

Alyosha
10-10-2013, 12:33 PM
but he didn't leave the country after dumping his docs.

He couldn't. He was in service. You can't just get away. They come find you.




as for russia, BS... putin's an opportunistic little bastard who got four laptops full of our documents.

Good. We lied to the American people, we abused the 4th amendment, even the FISA court was like wtf? If we weren't such Nazi's to average citizens who break the law and obscure when our politicians do he wouldn't have had to run off. He could have stayed here and gotten a fair shake like Lerner, Bush, Cheney, and Obama.

They all broke the law, too, but got to kick their jobs.

Alyosha
10-10-2013, 12:34 PM
Except for the fact that the constitution creates a strong, centralized government, with language just vague enough in some areas to allow for growth and abuse.

If it were up to me, we'd scrap the whole thing and start over, and the very first article after the preamble would be the Tenth Amendment, expanded.

It really didn't. Blame the SCOTUS.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:35 PM
I think the problem is more that the 10th has not been adhered to.

You're right, though, it should be at the core of the Constitution, not an add on.

Well, it also needs to be expanded and made more specific. It's rather vague.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:36 PM
It really didn't. Blame the SCOTUS.

Even Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists agreed it gave too much power to the centralized government, which is why they produced the bill of rights. Even then, it was only the best they could do, not the best they wanted to do.

But yes, SCOTUS bears the most of the blame.

Chris
10-10-2013, 12:39 PM
Except for the fact that the constitution creates a strong, centralized government, with language just vague enough in some areas to allow for growth and abuse.

If it were up to me, we'd scrap the whole thing and start over, and the very first article after the preamble would be the Tenth Amendment, expanded.



The language seems plain and simple to me to grant government limited powers and purposes. It's interpretation that stretches say Obamacare commerce to a tax.

I do agree the seeds of statism were planted back then.

Alyosha
10-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Even Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists agreed it gave too much power to the centralized government, which is why they produced the bill of rights. Even then, it was only the best they could do, not the best they wanted to do.

But yes, SCOTUS bears the most of the blame.

Jefferson refused to be a part of the convention because he said that if they fixed the articles of confederation (which history doesn't like to talk about even though a black man was its first president) it would make matters worse.

Chris
10-10-2013, 12:40 PM
It really didn't. Blame the SCOTUS.



And Congress and Presidents who ignore it.


But mostly the people who have allowed it.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:41 PM
Jefferson refused to be a part of the convention because he said that if they fixed the articles of confederation (which history doesn't like to talk about even though a black man was its first president) it would make matters worse.

Yes, and they fixed them with the constitution. My point exactly :tongue:

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:43 PM
The language seems plain and simple to me to grant government limited powers and purposes. It's interpretation that stretches say Obamacare commerce to a tax.

I do agree the seeds of statism were planted back then.

I'm just glad the Jeffersonians were able to thrust a stake through Adams' black heart. That crapulous old bastard would have had us as an elitist aristocracy no different than England, where only those of noble birth and blood could serve in government and vote. The man was dangerous, plain and simple. I'm almost terrified to think of what would have happened to this country had he gotten his way.

Chris
10-10-2013, 12:44 PM
I'm just glad the Jeffersonians were able to thrust a stake through Adams' black heart. That crapulous old bastard would have had us as an elitist aristocracy no different than England, where only those of noble birth and blood could serve in government and vote. The man was dangerous, plain and simple. I'm almost terrified to think of what would have happened to this country had he gotten his way.

And then there was Hamilton....

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 12:45 PM
And then there was Hamilton....

Who, unfortunately, was immortal. His dark soul wasn't banished far enough into hell by Aaron Burr, and he was reincarnated as Woodrow Wilson.

Sad, that.

Chris
10-10-2013, 12:49 PM
Some you all will then enjoy this: Did the Constitution Betray the Revolution? The Constitution as counterrevolution: a tribute to the Anti-Federalists (http://reason.com/archives/2013/08/05/did-the-constitution-betray-th)--among whom are listed Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, Richard Henry Lee, and Thomas Jefferson.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 01:13 PM
Some you all will then enjoy this: Did the Constitution Betray the Revolution? The Constitution as counterrevolution: a tribute to the Anti-Federalists (http://reason.com/archives/2013/08/05/did-the-constitution-betray-th)--among whom are listed Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, Richard Henry Lee, and Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Paine is my intellectual godfather :)

Chris
10-10-2013, 01:38 PM
Thomas Paine is my intellectual godfather :)

Yes, I remember the video. I've read some of his more popular works.

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 01:46 PM
Yes, I remember the video. I've read some of his more popular works.

Have you read Agrarian Justice?

Chris
10-10-2013, 01:48 PM
Have you read Agrarian Justice?

No. I guess I should, :-).

Green Arrow
10-10-2013, 01:54 PM
No. I guess I should, :-).

It's real easy. Only like twenty pages. He was good at keeping his ideas short and simple without leaving you confused.

Chris
10-10-2013, 02:09 PM
It's real easy. Only like twenty pages. He was good at keeping his ideas short and simple without leaving you confused.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html, on my to read list.

Cthulhu
10-10-2013, 02:14 PM
it was traffic court. you're not exactly being tried in a death penalty case. you are entitled to "due" process... not the process you *think* you want. and that process that is *due* is based on the level of imposition on your rights and the governmental interest in the reg.

you weren't tried criminally. you aren't entitled to any trial under the sixth amendment. only under whatever administrative procedure act exists in your state.

no. it is not your place. there's an awful lot of discretion in setting speed limits.

the world would think you're being a baby. pay the two dollars as the old timers used to say.

and if you don't choose to obey speed limits, you pay the fine.

If I have to explain my reasoning to you, it is not worth the time to do so. Thus, I will not do so.

You however, will go on blissfully ignorant and uncaring about the event. And I would care as much as I do right now.