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Alyosha
10-11-2013, 08:11 AM
I hear this all the time, so let's put it to bed

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_wel_cas_tot_rec_percap-caseloads-total-recipients-per-capita

As you can see the list is:

1. DC
2. Guam (WTF????)
3. Rhode Island
4. Tennessee
5. California
6. Maine
7. Alaska
8. West Virginia
9. Indiana
10. Washington

Why the hell is Guam getting more money for entitlements than people living in American states?????

Like, I'm more upset by that then anything else. Anyway.

The bottom ten--those that take the least amount of money for federal welfare handouts include: Virginia (go VA!), Arkansas (wtf?), Utah, Wisconsin, and so forth, but I'm surprised that Wyoming takes the least.

Now, when you look at dollars from a standpoint of where military bases are--they which receive the most of our taxes--then you'll see border states (red states) because that's the strategic nature of where you place military bases.


Still can anyone tell me why Guam gets so much $$?

patrickt
10-11-2013, 08:14 AM
Now, the other question. Is the federal government taking money from red states? And, if you consider the money the feds take, and you consider the mandates they force on the states in exchange for any money they get, is it a good deal for the states?

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 08:14 AM
Now, the other question. Is the federal government taking money from red states?

Well, we all know the answer to that. Have you seen a gigantic bake sale?

countryboy
10-11-2013, 08:15 AM
All that money acts as ballast to prevent the island from capsizing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7m6aewquco

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 08:21 AM
Argh, that was funny...but I still want to know why Guam gets that much money in welfare spending. jillian do you know?

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 08:30 AM
I hear this all the time, so let's put it to bed

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_wel_cas_tot_rec_percap-caseloads-total-recipients-per-capita

As you can see the list is:

1. DC
2. Guam (WTF????)
3. Rhode Island
4. Tennessee
5. California
6. Maine
7. Alaska
8. West Virginia
9. Indiana
10. Washington

Why the hell is Guam getting more money for entitlements than people living in American states?????

Like, I'm more upset by that then anything else. Anyway.

The bottom ten--those that take the least amount of money for federal welfare handouts include: Virginia (go VA!), Arkansas (wtf?), Utah, Wisconsin, and so forth, but I'm surprised that Wyoming takes the least.

Now, when you look at dollars from a standpoint of where military bases are--they which receive the most of our taxes--then you'll see border states (red states) because that's the strategic nature of where you place military bases.


Still can anyone tell me why Guam gets so much $$?

Tennessee is on the list mostly for things like the Chicamauga Lock and the Sequoyah nuclear plant, too, so it's for stuff that actually affects federal property and people outside Tennessee.

Just thought I'd clarify. It's not really "welfare."

Ravi
10-11-2013, 08:59 AM
Those figures are from 2003.

countryboy
10-11-2013, 09:04 AM
Argh, that was funny...but I still want to know why Guam gets that much money in welfare spending. @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) do you know?
Me too.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 09:37 AM
Tennessee is on the list mostly for things like the Chicamauga Lock and the Sequoyah nuclear plant, too, so it's for stuff that actually affects federal property and people outside Tennessee.

Just thought I'd clarify. It's not really "welfare."
@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698)

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/wp2.pdf

We're talking actual "entitlements" that the states requested, not money sent there for federal projects. You get that, right?

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/



Often that program was defense spending. States like Virginia, Alaska, Maryland and New Mexico received the most money per capita in federal procurement spending, which includes things like Medicaid and NASA, but the majority of which goes to the Department of Defense. To give an idea of the amount of money the federal government poured into military bases and research centers in these states, the government spent approximately $7,300 per person on all programs in Nevada. It also spent approximately $5,000 per person on defense spending alone in Virginia.



When you have Quantico, Norfolk (the largest base in the country), Ft. Lee, all of the government contractors in Northern VA then of course you're going to see Virginia receive a huge amount of money coming from the Fed.

But, considering that VA also has the top 6 richest counties, they are also paying to the fed. Get how that works? Good.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 09:46 AM
http://www.youargue.com/images/InspiredEconomist/TableII.jpg

Ravi 2013 you wanted it, right? California, New York, Michigan, Texas, Tennessee, and Washington all take more federal welfare dollars than Utah or South Dakota, etc.

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 09:46 AM
@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698)

http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/wp2.pdf

We're talking actual "entitlements" that the states requested, not money sent there for federal projects. You get that, right?

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/



When you have Quantico, Norfolk (the largest base in the country), Ft. Lee, all of the government contractors in Northern VA then of course you're going to see Virginia receive a huge amount of money coming from the Fed.

But, considering that VA also has the top 6 richest counties, they are also paying to the fed. Get how that works? Good.

That's what always irked me about the whole argument about red states taking more than they put in. It's not like they were mooching off the federal government. The Democrats that make this argument are totally off-base.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 09:50 AM
That's what always irked me about the whole argument about red states taking more than they put in. It's not like they were mooching off the federal government. The Democrats that make this argument are totally off-base.

Democrats like Ravi don't think too much about it.

Here's the 2013 moocher list again:

http://www.youargue.com/images/InspiredEconomist/TableII.jpg

Chris
10-11-2013, 09:53 AM
Not sure why you bought into the partisan hackery of red v blue states to begin with. America is purple.

http://i.snag.gy/iwHAg.jpg



After 2003 states like California, New York, Pennsylvania rose to the top. It keeps shifting, it's like static claims about the top 1%, the demographics are very dynamic.



Not sure about Guam. Must be something of value there.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 09:59 AM
:rolleyes: 6 of the top 10 are red states.

If you want to make valid comparisons, compare which states pay the most in income tax vs. which states take the most in welfare.

For instance, in Floriduh, South Florida pays more in income tax (and sales tax) while the rest of the state takes more in bennies.

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 10:03 AM
:rolleyes: 6 of the top 10 are red states.

And there's a reason for that, reasons that have been posted multiple times in this thread and you apparently ignored.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 10:52 AM
And there's a reason for that, reasons that have been posted multiple times in this thread and you apparently ignored.

Delete out the money for military bases then and see where we are at.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:02 AM
Delete out the money for military bases then and see where we are at.

We just did, genius. That's the welfare list where California takes nearly five times as much as the next behind it.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 11:06 AM
Delete out the money for military bases then and see where we are at.

As in the OP these are "Welfare Caseloads"

Don't believe military bases are classified as welfare.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/welfare-caseloads-total-recipients-most-recent-by-state/question-1435395/?link=ibaf&q=&esrc=s

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:07 AM
:rolleyes: 6 of the top 10 are red states.

If you want to make valid comparisons, compare which states pay the most in income tax vs. which states take the most in welfare.

For instance, in Floriduh, South Florida pays more in income tax (and sales tax) while the rest of the state takes more in bennies.

CA 1,397, 103
NY 277, 257
PA 196,773
OH 172, 943
TN 141,005
WA 123, 704
MI 105,978
TX 104, 214
IL 99, 946
MA 98,549


@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) that is what those states took in for welfare funds last year. How many "RED" states were on that list?

That's their welfare ranks...so we all know who is taking in the most $ in federal entitlements.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:11 AM
As in the OP these are "Welfare Caseloads"

Don't believe military bases are classified as welfare.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/welfare-caseloads-total-recipients-most-recent-by-state/question-1435395/?link=ibaf&q=&esrc=s



And it's not like they have choices about those bases. The US DOD decides it based on strategic locations. You can't put Norfolk's naval base in Idaho and Marines who are part of the USN can't be far from a naval base.


EDIT: and this is the idiocy of the Democrats and their voters. They pander this "red states take in more $$" and don't look at what the federal dollars go to.

Welfare? Nooooo, blue states are taking more of that money.

DOD? Yessss, why do red states? Because they are a) on the coast and/or b) where there is enough space and cheap space to place a large contingency of people, and d) were they can develop new weapons systems and not disturb large groups of people.

Captain Obvious
10-11-2013, 11:13 AM
The question should really be - what political alignment are the people, the individuals who are taking the money? Not the entire states.

Correlation thing.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:20 AM
The question should really be - what political alignment are the people, the individuals who are taking the money? Not the entire states.

Correlation thing.

Well, I don't think the Democrats need to start negative mythos in the first place, but if they're going to do it, let's do it and look at the entire picture before they call people "moochers".

Chris
10-11-2013, 11:32 AM
The question should really be - what political alignment are the people, the individuals who are taking the money? Not the entire states.

Correlation thing.



I'm sure they align with whichever party at the moment promises them the most from the public coffers.


“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the canidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.”

― allegedly Alexander Fraser Tytler

midcan5
10-11-2013, 11:34 AM
Predominantly the answer is yes, red states take more, but let's face it, when there is poor education, a lack of unions, what do you expect.

"Red states were more likely to get a bigger cut of federal spending. Of the 22 states that went to McCain in 2008, 86 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. In contrast, 55 percent of the states that went to Obama received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Republican states, on average, received $1.46 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; Democratic states, on average, received $1.16."


States receiving the most federal funding per tax dollar paid:


1. New Mexico: $2.63
2. West Virginia: $2.57
3. Mississippi: $2.47
4. District of Colombia: $2.41
5. Hawaii: $2.38
6. Alabama: $2.03
7. Alaska: $1.93
8. Montana: $1.92
9. South Carolina: $1.92
10. Maine: $1.78

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps

and http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/2/

hanger4
10-11-2013, 11:38 AM
Predominantly the answer is yes, red states take more, but let's face it, when there is poor education, a lack of unions, what do you expect.

"Red states were more likely to get a bigger cut of federal spending. Of the 22 states that went to McCain in 2008, 86 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. In contrast, 55 percent of the states that went to Obama received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Republican states, on average, received $1.46 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; Democratic states, on average, received $1.16."


States receiving the most federal funding per tax dollar paid:


1. New Mexico: $2.63
2. West Virginia: $2.57
3. Mississippi: $2.47
4. District of Colombia: $2.41
5. Hawaii: $2.38
6. Alabama: $2.03
7. Alaska: $1.93
8. Montana: $1.92
9. South Carolina: $1.92
10. Maine: $1.78

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps

and http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/2/

We be talkin' welfare, not total Fed dollars.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:39 AM
Predominantly the answer is yes, red states take more, but let's face it, when there is poor education, a lack of unions, what do you expect.

"Red states were more likely to get a bigger cut of federal spending. Of the 22 states that went to McCain in 2008, 86 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. In contrast, 55 percent of the states that went to Obama received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Republican states, on average, received $1.46 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; Democratic states, on average, received $1.16."


States receiving the most federal funding per tax dollar paid:


1. New Mexico: $2.63
2. West Virginia: $2.57
3. Mississippi: $2.47
4. District of Colombia: $2.41
5. Hawaii: $2.38
6. Alabama: $2.03
7. Alaska: $1.93
8. Montana: $1.92
9. South Carolina: $1.92
10. Maine: $1.78

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps

and http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/2/

midcan5

once again you jump in without reviewing the facts. You are like shooting fish in a barrel. We've already discussed that blue states take in more $$ for welfare and red states take in more money because they have military bases in them.

:roflmao:


Welfare:

CA 1,397, 103
NY 277, 257
PA 196,773
OH 172, 943
TN 141,005
WA 123, 704
MI 105,978
TX 104, 214
IL 99, 946
MA 98,549


:)

http://www.youargue.com/images/InspiredEconomist/TableII.jpg


So wanna try that "mooch" argument again? States ask for welfare money. The federal government tells states where military bases go.

Thanks for playing though.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 11:39 AM
We just did, genius. That's the welfare list where California takes nearly five times as much as the next behind it.
Why so rude? As I said before, 6 of the top 10 are red states. Now when are you going to come up with the givers vs. the takers list?

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:40 AM
I honestly think most Democrats have no ability to make a logical argument. They are easy to defeat because they cut and paste without also seeing where their sources get their information.

They are all regurgitation of Democrat talking points and no investigation. I'd love 'em if they didn't have the ability to appeal to stupid and lazy people who don't like to think for themselves.

Thinking...not for everyone, I guess.

Chris
10-11-2013, 11:41 AM
CA 1,397, 103
NY 277, 257
PA 196,773
OH 172, 943
TN 141,005
WA 123, 704
MI 105,978
TX 104, 214
IL 99, 946
MA 98,549


@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) that is what those states took in for welfare funds last year. How many "RED" states were on that list?

That's their welfare ranks...so we all know who is taking in the most $ in federal entitlements.


Why so rude? As I said before, 6 of the top 10 are red states. Now when are you going to come up with the givers vs. the takers list?



Try counting, ravi.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 11:42 AM
Predominantly the answer is yes, red states take more, but let's face it, when there is poor education, a lack of unions, what do you expect.

"Red states were more likely to get a bigger cut of federal spending. Of the 22 states that went to McCain in 2008, 86 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. In contrast, 55 percent of the states that went to Obama received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Republican states, on average, received $1.46 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; Democratic states, on average, received $1.16."


States receiving the most federal funding per tax dollar paid:


1. New Mexico: $2.63
2. West Virginia: $2.57
3. Mississippi: $2.47
4. District of Colombia: $2.41
5. Hawaii: $2.38
6. Alabama: $2.03
7. Alaska: $1.93
8. Montana: $1.92
9. South Carolina: $1.92
10. Maine: $1.78

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps

and http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/08/03/states-that-get-the-most-federal-money/2/
Thanks, I knew someone could do it :)

jillian
10-11-2013, 11:43 AM
Argh, that was funny...but I still want to know why Guam gets that much money in welfare spending. @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) do you know?

your numbers are interesting... but the question is WHICH STATES GET MORE THAN THEY PUT IN


Of the twenty worst states, 16 are either Republican dominated or conservative states. Let's go through the top twenty.

New Mexico: $2.03
Mississippi: $2.02
Alaska: $1.84
Louisiana: $1.78
West Virginia: $1.76
North Dakota: $1.68
Alabama: $1.66
South Dakota: $1.53
Kentucky: $1.51
Virginia: $1.51
Montana: $1.47
Hawaii: $1.44
Maine: $1.41
Arkansas: $1.41
Oklahoma: $1.36
South Carolina: $1.35
Missouri: $1.32
Maryland: $1.30
Tennessee: $1.27
Idaho: $1.21
http://www.businessinsider.com/red-states-are-welfare-queens-2011-8

glen beck keeps trying to say it's not true either.

red states are moochers.

should we go through the poverty levels and educational deficits, too?

the question is not where there are welfare recipients, but where the STATES suck the money from the feds.

nice obfuscation though

Chris
10-11-2013, 11:43 AM
I honestly think most Democrats have no ability to make a logical argument. They are easy to defeat because they cut and paste without also seeing where their sources get their information.

They are all regurgitation of Democrat talking points and no investigation. I'd love 'em if they didn't have the ability to appeal to stupid and lazy people who don't like to think for themselves.

Thinking...not for everyone, I guess.



They're repeaters, not thinkers. There are plenty Rep repeaters too. It comes with partisanship.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:43 AM
Why so rude? As I said before, 6 of the top 10 are red states. Now when are you going to come up with the givers vs. the takers list?

CA 1,397, 103
NY 277, 257
PA 196,773
OH 172, 943
TN 141,005
WA 123, 704
TX 104, 214
MI 105,978
IL 99, 946
MA 98,549


No. Texas, Tennessee, and Ohio. That's it. Sorry bout it.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6z179abJU1qjxzk0o1_r1_500.gif

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:46 AM
your numbers are interesting...

They should be, they come from HHS.gov. :)

Sorry, Jilly, but "mooching" implies that you're asking and getting. You said "mooch". Of the "mooching" I already showed you the list from HHS.gov which shows who, exactly, asks for federal money.

Having the government shove a military base in your state and send money to it, ain't the same thing at all.

http://a1.s6img.com/cdn/0015/p/5072520_8552026-prn01_lz.jpg

jillian
10-11-2013, 11:48 AM
They should be, they come from HHS.gov. :)

Sorry, Jilly, but "mooching" implies that you're asking and getting. You said "mooch". Of the "mooching" I already showed you the list from HHS.gov which shows who, exactly, asks for federal money.

Having the government shove a military base in your state and send money to it, ain't the same thing at all.



what's with the picture thingy?

you changed the goal posts to try to prove point that no one was talking about.

red states take more money from the feds than they pay in.

that was the assertion. you can try to amuse yourself by trying to change the subject all you want. but it's disingenuous

Ravi
10-11-2013, 11:50 AM
Military bases aren't the states taking money. Military bases are federal. Hello?

Also, from midcan's link:


This red-blue split may be partly explained by the difference between urban and rural states. Red states are more likely to be rural, and rural states were more likely to receive more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. Among predominantly rural states, 81 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. In contrast, 44 percent of urban states received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Rural states, on average, received $1.40 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; urban states, on average, received $1.10. (Rural states are defined as states whose urban population rate is below the national average of 79 percent.)So basically the situation is that blue states are enabling red states. Shocker!

Great thread. When you glibertarians create your utopia please take the moocher red states with you.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:51 AM
And my little 'ole state now has the richest people in America, why? Because of corporatism.

Hey, America! Crony capitalism RULES for Virginia and Southern, MD.


The economy may still be struggling to break out in much of the country, but not in Washington (http://www.forbes.com/washington/), where local federal spending has doubled over the past decade, boosting federal agency employment and contract spending. Lawyers and lobbyists have rolled in from anywhere and everywhere. The local unemployment rate of 5.5% lies well below the national average. It’s also where median household income levels are the highest in the country.


For the second consecutive year, Loudoun County, Va., a 520-square-mile suburban mass that sits 46 miles from the White House, weighs in as America’s richest county. Formerly a rural area that once housed retired president James Monroe, Loudon is now a service economy center of 333,000 people that houses Dulles International Airport. The population is roughly double that of 2000, and for good reason: business contracting work and plentiful jobs in the public school system and at local offices of agencies such as the Department of Homeland Security yield a median household income of $119,525, the highest of any county in the U.S.


While Loudoun ranks at the top, it’s far from alone on the list of wealthiest counties that surround Washington. In fact, it’s just the beginning. The neighboring counties of Falls Church City, Fairfax, Arlington and Prince William in Virginia and Howard County in Maryland all make the cut, giving the D.C. area six of the nation’s ten wealthiest counties. All boast median household incomes between $93,000 and $117,000 annually.
The feds’ tentacles do spread beyond Washington. New Mexico’s Los Alamos County, home to the National Laboratory with a $2.2 billion budget, places No. 3 on the list with a median household income of $110,000.


Wall Street (http://www.forbes.com/wall-street/) and the rest of New York City’s economy aren’t left out altogether. Two commuting counties in New Jersey, Hunterdon and Somerset, come in at No. 5 and No.9, respectively.




http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomvanriper/2013/04/25/americas-richest-counties/

But government's so pure and innocent and good for everyone...in Virginia.

I expect to see all of you here next year for fox hunting. Tally ho!

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVo-Cep1Z-OGKfxeM8-2BJM0xo5ZIgOs5QKqfY_t0RCujTSRdC

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Military bases aren't the states taking money. Military bases are federal. Hello?

Yes, helloooo? Equipment isn't people, now is it?

How does a light armored vehicle "mooch" again? :)

That's right. It doesn't. Also, Virginia, we're the richest now. Hahahahaha.

Agravan
10-11-2013, 11:54 AM
what's with the picture thingy?

you changed the goal posts to try to prove point that no one was talking about.

red states take more money from the feds than they pay in.

that was the assertion. you can try to amuse yourself by trying to change the subject all you want. but it's disingenuous
Sorry, jiillian, but you're the one being disingenuous here. Your assertion is that the Red states are "moocher" because they take in more funds, but you refuse to acknowledge that they take in more funds because the US Government has military bases there. Sure, that makes your numbers look better, but the fact is, those bases are not part of the "moocher" class. the lengths you people will go thru to try to prove your talking points is disingenuous to say the least, and is disgusting and stupid.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 11:57 AM
Yes, helloooo? Equipment isn't people, now is it?

How does a light armored vehicle "mooch" again? :)

That's right. It doesn't. Also, Virginia, we're the richest now. Hahahahaha.
Please re-answer in English.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 11:57 AM
what's with the picture thingy?

It's how many people are on welfare and receiving federal welfare dollars.




you changed the goal posts to try to prove point that no one was talking about.


Changed what goal posts? By being honest about what kind of money each state receives? jillian, how does Virginia take money earmarked for United States Marine Corps Base Quantico and use it for farm equipment?

How does money for Ft Benning GA go to welfare in Georgia?

Answer: it doesn't. The bulk of that federal money you guys believe they are "mooching" goes to US government "stuff", not people in those states.

Welfare, however, is money that goes to the people living in the states and "you guys" seem to be incapable of taking care of the people who live in your state by providing them with jobs and funds.

That's totally different and quite sad actually.


:(


But, hey! On the bright side, all of you "pro government should do everything" has made my state super rich.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2bWD-YdC6qtm-U4h6SkOmo0cDiuijpcvkWJ2XsCrIBG6bE1Tb

http://www.kateschelter.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/robert-merhaut-photography.jpg

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Seriously... @midcan5 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=765) @Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719)

I think all of us here in the Old Dominion want to thank people like you for making our state so much money that we have Mercedes dealerships on every corner.

Your attitude about the government being the way, the means, and the light of all things has pumped so much money into our economy --that could have actually gone to programs that helped people all across the country if they were able to keep those monies within their states and use it on their own people-- that we're doing quite well now. In fact, we stole all those top slots that New York and Connecticut used to hold.


So, from the bottom of our hearts here in beautiful Virginia.


Thanks y'all!

Oh look! Rich white people with old Southern Money!

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/091201/GAL-09Dec01-3232/media/PHO-09Dec01-192771.jpg


They must love Obama. :)

Ravi
10-11-2013, 12:03 PM
That's not my attitude and I doubt it is Jillian's either. I won't speak for midcan.

But thanks for admitting your state sucks off the taxpayer.

nic34
10-11-2013, 12:05 PM
The state that dislikes government, that depends on government spending.... gee...really?

Utah unemployment claims up 500 percent since start of shutdown

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865587697/Utah-unemployment-claims-up-500-percent-since-start-of-shutdown.html

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:06 PM
That's not my attitude and I doubt it is Jillian's either. I won't speak for midcan.

But thanks for admitting your state sucks off the taxpayer.


Well, noooo, pumpkin preciousss. Virginians pay money into the federal system and now we can pay even more (unfortunately) since we all mostly have jobs...unlike Californians.


I'll be thinking about how you guys really helped us out with your "let's grow the federal government" attitudes as I sip cocktails on my porch with @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870) @Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) and @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and stare at my warmblood.

He's such a cute horsey-horse.

Really, he is.

Unintended consequences of crony capitalism and the federal government growing is that lobbyists, lawyers, and other nefarious creatures like us get rich.

But, hey, how's that Obama stimulus working out for the midwest again?

Agravan
10-11-2013, 12:07 PM
The state that dislikes government, that depends on government spending.... gee...really?

Utah unemployment claims up 500 percent since start of shutdown

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865587697/Utah-unemployment-claims-up-500-percent-since-start-of-shutdown.html

Harry Reid says "You're welcome."

Chris
10-11-2013, 12:07 PM
Seriously... @midcan5 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=765) @Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719)

I think all of us here in the Old Dominion want to thank people like you for making our state so much money that we have Mercedes dealerships on every corner.

Your attitude about the government being the way, the means, and the light of all things has pumped so much money into our economy --that could have actually gone to programs that helped people all across the country if they were able to keep those monies within their states and use it on their own people-- that we're doing quite well now. In fact, we stole all those top slots that New York and Connecticut used to hold.


So, from the bottom of our hearts here in beautiful Virginia.


Thanks y'all!

Oh look! Rich white people with old Southern Money!

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/091201/GAL-09Dec01-3232/media/PHO-09Dec01-192771.jpg


They must love Obama. :)




Well said and well argued.

Don't let 'em move the goalposts, don't let them deny.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:08 PM
The state that dislikes government, that depends on government spending.... gee...really?

Utah unemployment claims up 500 percent since start of shutdown

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865587697/Utah-unemployment-claims-up-500-percent-since-start-of-shutdown.html


Yep, good things you guys have helped them out so much. Fuck 'em right? Utah, Michigan...let's give more phoney stimulus and grow the size of Virginia some more.

Go Virginia!!!!!!!!! W00000000000000000000t!

hanger4
10-11-2013, 12:12 PM
Military bases aren't the states taking money. Military bases are federal. Hello?

Also, from midcan's link:


This red-blue split may be partly explained by the difference between urban and rural states. Red states are more likely to be rural, and rural states were more likely to receive more federal spending than they paid in taxes in 2010. Among predominantly rural states, 81 percent received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. In contrast, 44 percent of urban states received more federal spending than they paid in taxes. Rural states, on average, received $1.40 in federal spending for every tax dollar paid; urban states, on average, received $1.10. (Rural states are defined as states whose urban population rate is below the national average of 79 percent.)

So basically the situation is that blue states are enabling red states. Shocker!

Great thread. When you glibertarians create your utopia please take the moocher red states with you.

Why do you believe federal spending is just welfare and doesn't include military bases ??

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:13 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A8wXNUnFeSA/TadVvsjrREI/AAAAAAAACr8/UqBQ0K8fZ6g/s400/Remus%2Band%2BI%2BFox%2BHunting.jpg

I love being an upper class white person in Virginia who has all the advantages of the crony capitalism that has pervaded the US government for the last 15 years with new departments like DHS and doubling the size of the CIA and FBI.

How are those little people doing in Michigan? The ones who voted for Democrats year after year? Oh, yes.

http://media.jrn.com/images/reuters-usa-detroit-bankrup.jpg

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:23 PM
That's not my attitude and I doubt it is Jillian's either. I won't speak for midcan.

But thanks for admitting your state sucks off the taxpayer.

And by the way, thanks for admitting it's not the government's money, Ravi but us taxpayers. :) You always give off the impression that you believe the money materializes out of thin air.

lynn
10-11-2013, 12:39 PM
To be fair the Republican states have 50 more million people than Democratic states. I did a spreadsheet to find out how many people each state has on Medicaid, Medicare, Tri-Care or Champus and totaled them by what each state's population is under government insurance. The total population on government insurance was higher in Democratic states over Republicans even though they have a higher population count.

Chris
10-11-2013, 12:49 PM
To be fair the Republican states have 50 more million people than Democratic states. I did a spreadsheet to find out how many people each state has on Medicaid, Medicare, Tri-Care or Champus and totaled them by what each state's population is under government insurance. The total population on government insurance was higher in Democratic states over Republicans even though they have a higher population count.



But you're not supposed to introduce facts like that! They upset the liberal applecart.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 12:51 PM
But you're not supposed to introduce facts like that! They upset the liberal applecart.

That's sour-grapes cart. :wink:

Ravi
10-11-2013, 12:55 PM
Well, noooo, pumpkin preciousss. Virginians pay money into the federal system and now we can pay even more (unfortunately) since we all mostly have jobs...unlike Californians.


I'll be thinking about how you guys really helped us out with your "let's grow the federal government" attitudes as I sip cocktails on my porch with @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870) @Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) and @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and stare at my warmblood.

He's such a cute horsey-horse.

Really, he is.

Unintended consequences of crony capitalism and the federal government growing is that lobbyists, lawyers, and other nefarious creatures like us get rich.

But, hey, how's that Obama stimulus working out for the midwest again?
I had a horse but it died. Now I am sad.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 12:56 PM
Why do you believe federal spending is just welfare and doesn't include military bases ??
I don't think it is just welfare. It's also pork. And I doubt it includes military bases because they are federal property and the money isn't given to the state or the citizens of the state. But feel free to prove me incorrect.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 12:57 PM
And by the way, thanks for admitting it's not the government's money, @Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) but us taxpayers. :) You always give off the impression that you believe the money materializes out of thin air.
That's just a faulty inference on your part.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 12:59 PM
I had a horse but it died. Now I am sad.
Ravi

Completely totally sincere...I'm sorry to hear that. Horses are special, spiritual creatures. :(

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:01 PM
I don't think it is just welfare. It's also pork. And I doubt it includes military bases because they are federal property and the money isn't given to the state or the citizens of the state. But feel free to prove me incorrect.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/29/AR2009072902676.html

You'll note it's pro Obama, but still proves the point. See, I'm not partisan, I'm antipartisan.

And sorry again about the horse. What kind was it?

Ravi
10-11-2013, 01:04 PM
@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698)

Completely totally sincere...I'm sorry to hear that. Horses are special, spiritual creatures. :(
Yes, much to my surprise it was very easy to bond with her. Thanks.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:06 PM
Ravi

((puts away dark evil heart for a moment))

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/dailyinterlake.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/f4/2f433afa-0e09-11e0-9850-001cc4c002e0/4d125e03bb43c.image.jpg


The horse that I loved and lost was one of these

http://www.horsenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/massive-horse-hugs.jpg


He was a Belgian from my husband's parent's farm and I only had him for 2 years (he was old) before he died. I've never loved an animal that much in my whole life.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 01:10 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/29/AR2009072902676.html

You'll note it's pro Obama, but still proves the point. See, I'm not partisan, I'm antipartisan.

And sorry again about the horse. What kind was it?

Not a paso fino but like one....I can't remember off the top of my head. We didn't train her to do the silly gaited prance though as I watch some others being trained to it and it seemed cruel.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 01:13 PM
I don't think it is just welfare. It's also pork. And I doubt it includes military bases because they are federal property and the money isn't given to the state or the citizens of the state. But feel free to prove me incorrect.

Don't know if I could or couldn't but that's irrelevant.

The fact is at lest twice, links to stats showing WELFARE moneys only, dispels the myth of taxes payed vs welfare received that the left likes to push.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:13 PM
Not a paso fino but like one....I can't remember off the top of my head. We didn't train her to do the silly gaited prance though as I watch some others being trained to it and it seemed cruel.

Awww. I'm a "draft horse" gal. My current horse is part Clydesdale-part Thoroughbred. He has fancy feet like a Clyde and a big goofy nose but he likes to jump.

He looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Clydesdale_horse.jpg


He's been in Maine and I finally get to bring him home in two weeks.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:14 PM
To be fair the Republican states have 50 more million people than Democratic states. I did a spreadsheet to find out how many people each state has on Medicaid, Medicare, Tri-Care or Champus and totaled them by what each state's population is under government insurance. The total population on government insurance was higher in Democratic states over Republicans even though they have a higher population count.

wow... more pulling numbers out of your butt... cool.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 01:16 PM
Awww. I'm a "draft horse" gal. My current horse is part Clydesdale-part Thoroughbred. He has fancy feet like a Clyde and a big goofy nose but he likes to jump.

He looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Clydesdale_horse.jpg


He's been in Maine and I finally get to bring him home in two weeks.
Sweet! I saw a beautiful stallion the other day, huge, glossy black with the fuzz hanging down over his hooves. I've got to go by the ranch and ask what he was. He was as big as a Clydesdale but not as stout. I doubt I will get another horse though :(

hanger4
10-11-2013, 01:18 PM
wow... more pulling numbers out of your butt... cool.

Ya know, instead of telling somebody they're wrong,

how about showing via proof once in a while.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:18 PM
Don't know if I could or couldn't but that's irrelevant.

The fact is at lest twice, links to stats showing WELFARE moneys only, dispels the myth of taxes payed vs welfare received that the left likes to push.


but that wasn't what precipitated this conversation... what started this conversation was the fact that red states take more federal money than they put in, while blue states put in more money than they take.

that has been linked and re-linked.



There is a very strong correlation, then, between a state voting for Republicans and receiving more in federal spending than its residents pay to the federal government in taxes (the rust belt and Texas being notable exceptions). In essence, those in blue states are subsidizing those in red states. Both red and blue states appear to be acting politically in opposition to their economic interests. Blue states are voting for candidates who are likely to continue the policies of red state subsidization while red states are voting for candidates who profess a desire to reduce federal spending (and presumably red state subsidization

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:20 PM
Ya know, instead of telling somebody they're wrong,

how about showing via proof once in a while.

she didn't "prove" anything. no reason to "disprove" it. and all she ever does is make up numbers out of air.

but feel free to prove her imaginary numbers right.

or you could always annoy her and demand she prove her fabrications.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:21 PM
but that wasn't what precipitated this conversation... what started this conversation was the fact that red states take more federal money than they put in, while blue states put in more money than they take.

that has been linked and re-linked.




http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html

Federal spending includes military installations. We all know that our military budget is off the charts, this year alone it will be 718 billion.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:22 PM
That's not my attitude and I doubt it is Jillian's either. I won't speak for midcan.

But thanks for admitting your state sucks off the taxpayer.

yeah, that was an interesting non-sequitur, wasn't it?

Chris
10-11-2013, 01:23 PM
but that wasn't what precipitated this conversation... what started this conversation was the fact that red states take more federal money than they put in, while blue states put in more money than they take.

that has been linked and re-linked.




http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html




what started this conversation was the fact that red states take more federal money than they put in, while blue states put in more money than they take.

You can repeat your pasted data till you're blue in the face but it does not meet the criteria you yourself set for discussion. You demand comparison of take out and put in but only paste take out data.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 01:23 PM
but that wasn't what precipitated this conversation... what started this conversation was the fact that red states take more federal money than they put in, while blue states put in more money than they take.

that has been linked and re-linked.




http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html

What part of Welfare Caseloads in the title of the OP's link don't you understand ??

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:26 PM
Sweet! I saw a beautiful stallion the other day, huge, glossy black with the fuzz hanging down over his hooves. I've got to go by the ranch and ask what he was. He was as big as a Clydesdale but not as stout. I doubt I will get another horse though :(
Ravi

if he was all black with curly mane could be a friesian.


I'm getting one of these.

http://www.horsenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/130Geronimo-Gypsy-Vanner-Stallion.jpg

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:26 PM
red states/bluestates sized by population

http://portside.org/2013-04-13/red-states-blue-states-sized-people

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/statepop512.png

Chris
10-11-2013, 01:27 PM
yeah, that was an interesting non-sequitur, wasn't it?


Non-sequitur? LOL. Go back to Logic 101 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/15163-Logic-101?highlight=logic). Do not collect $200.

Chris
10-11-2013, 01:29 PM
red states/bluestates sized by population

http://portside.org/2013-04-13/red-states-blue-states-sized-people

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/statepop512.png

Counties sized by population:

http://i.snag.gy/cKQIe.jpg

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Federal spending includes military installations. We all know that our military budget is off the charts, this year alone it will be 718 billion.

you've already been corrected on that subject.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:42 PM
Counties sized by population:

http://i.snag.gy/cKQIe.jpg

absolutely. most states are purple.

but she claimed millions more live in red states.

therefore, it was the above map that was relevant to her assertion.

also, if she weren't making it up in her head, she'd realize if there were that many more people in red states than blue states, there a) wouldn't have been a democratic president elected by more than 5 million votes ... twice; and b) democrats wouldn't have gotten a million more votes in the House of Representatives.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 01:42 PM
she didn't "prove" anything. no reason to "disprove" it. and all she ever does is make up numbers out of air.

but feel free to prove her imaginary numbers right.

or you could always annoy her and demand she prove her fabrications.

Could care less about her #'s,

just weary of you incessant snipping.

Try a little more linking/proving the statement/s wrong

and a little less snarkyness.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 01:43 PM
@Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698)

if he was all black with curly mane could be a friesian.


I'm getting one of these.

http://www.horsenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/130Geronimo-Gypsy-Vanner-Stallion.jpg

Beautiful!

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:44 PM
Could care less about her #'s,

just weary of you incessant snipping.

Try a little more linking/proving the statement/s wrong

and a little less snarkyness.

poor baby... i'm kind of funny. i'm only nice to people who are nice to me.

if you're a disrespectful schmuck, that's what you get treated like.

carry on.... or perhaps you can tell it to someone who actually cares what you think.

i love how it's always the nastiest of the wingers who get butthurt when they get back what they give

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 01:46 PM
I don't think it is just welfare. It's also pork. And I doubt it includes military bases because they are federal property and the money isn't given to the state or the citizens of the state. But feel free to prove me incorrect.

For Tennessee at least, a lot of that federal money goes to things like the Chicamauga Lock, which actually protects federal property and people outside Tennessee. If the lock ever broke and the dam busted, the Tennessee Valley would be flooded. Possibly a hundred thousand or more would die between Tennessee and Georgia. It wouldn't be pretty. Since that affects more than just the state, the federal government does have a responsibility to ensure its funded.

There's also the TVA, a federal (and state) energy corporation that mostly services the state of Tennessee. It keeps everybody's energy costs down.

These aren't the only things, just examples.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:51 PM
Beautiful!

Gypsy vanners are the perfect horses for novices because they are thick and low to the ground.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:51 PM
For Tennessee at least, a lot of that federal money goes to things like the Chicamauga Lock, which actually protects federal property and people outside Tennessee. If the lock ever broke and the dam busted, the Tennessee Valley would be flooded. Possibly a hundred thousand or more would die between Tennessee and Georgia. It wouldn't be pretty. Since that affects more than just the state, the federal government does have a responsibility to ensure its funded.

There's also the TVA, a federal (and state) energy corporation that mostly services the state of Tennessee. It keeps everybody's energy costs down.

These aren't the only things, just examples.

it's interesting that you would pick that.

because the reality is ... it's also things like farm subsidies

and disaster aid (which the wingnut House was pretty messed up about giving to my area but tossed it around like water for haley barbour

it's also aid... because the red states are the most impoverished

so while it's fine to talk about a useful project... that isn't the norm

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:51 PM
you've already been corrected on that subject.

No I have not. Show me the sentence that says where and how military funds are not included. Seriously. I'm happy to be wrong. Show me the exclusion jillian.


EDIT: Watch and see how dignified people can be in defeat (if I'm defeated, that is)

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:53 PM
jillian

just to be clear, I want to see where those 10 neediest states are needy for welfare and entitlements and not military bases and spending. Thanks.

jillian
10-11-2013, 01:54 PM
No I have not. Show me the sentence that says where and how military funds are not included. Seriously. I'm happy to be wrong. Show me the exclusion.


military funds are not paid to the state because military bases are federal land.

tell you what, you show me that the funds are included in state budges because that's what we're talking aboutl. if it's a credible site, i'll be happy to look at it.

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 01:56 PM
it's interesting that you would pick that.

because the reality is ... it's also things like farm subsidies

and disaster aid (which the wingnut House was pretty messed up about giving to my area but tossed it around like water for haley barbour

it's also aid... because the red states are the most impoverished

so while it's fine to talk about a useful project... that isn't the norm

Well, I did say there was more to it and those were just examples.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 01:59 PM
military funds are not paid to the state because military bases are federal land.

You're not showing me the link that says that the dollars exclude military spending. Not that I don't believe you, but please...show me where those figures exclude military spending jillian.

Just know that I wouldn't ask if I didn't have a very good reason. :D

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:02 PM
BTW, jillian...do you trust PBS (http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/defensemap.html)? I just want to know because I'm waiting with evidence. :)

It looks a bit like this:

In all but a handful of states, Department of Defense dollars account for by far the majority of federal dollars. States in which the Department of Energy provides the greatest amount are those which are host to major military research laboratories like Oak Ridge in Tennessee and Los Alamos and Sandia Labs in New Mexico or the atomic testing ranges of Nevada. Check out your state's share below.

http://www.fpdc.gov/fpdc/fpdc_home.htm

^^shut down for the budget crisis


My point is that unless you have a paragraph that suggests that those figures are absent of federal dollars I will have to continue to disagree.

hanger4
10-11-2013, 02:03 PM
military funds are not paid to the state because military bases are federal land.

tell you what, you show me that the funds are included in state budges because that's what we're talking aboutl. if it's a credible site, i'll be happy to look at it.

NO, the OP's link is talking fed welfare not state budges.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:04 PM
This one is still up, goody

http://nationalatlas.gov/mld/feddod.html

Ravi
10-11-2013, 02:05 PM
I couldn't find a link that detailed strictly what most people call welfare (food stamps, etc) and the link in the op simply says "caseload" with no dollar amounts.

I did find this link, and the top 10 are ALL red states. Some of them do get military spending counted but not all.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2012/10/25/blue_state_red_face_guess_who_benefits_more_from_y our_taxes.html

Look at Mississippi, Alaska, West Virginia, North Dakota and Kentucky.

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:05 PM
@jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719)

just to be clear, I want to see where those 10 neediest states are needy for welfare and entitlements and not military bases and spending. Thanks.


These are the ten poorest states...number one being the poorest... notice a correlation. want to see their educational levels, too? their unwed motherhood rates?

10. oklahoma
9. south carolina
8. louisiana
7. tenessee
6. new mexico
5. kentucky
4. alabama
3. west virginia
2 arkansas
1. mississippi

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/09/19/americas-richest-and-poorest-states/7/

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:06 PM
http://nationalatlas.gov/mld/images/feddod.gif


This would be federal DOD dollars by state. Notice anything?

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:08 PM
These are the ten poorest states...number one being the poorest... notice a correlation. want to see their educational levels, too? their unwed motherhood rates?

10. oklahoma
9. south carolina
8. louisiana
7. tenessee
6. new mexico
5. kentucky
4. alabama
3. west virginia
2 arkansas
1. mississippi

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/09/19/americas-richest-and-poorest-states/7/


Are you being a sexual Puritan?

What's this supposed to show me? Of those only #7 is a top ten mooch. The others seem to get by without federal dollars like California, New York, and Pennsylvania.

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:09 PM
Least Educated States

10. Oklahoma
9.Tenessee
8. Indiana
7. Nevada
6. Alabama
5. Louisiana
4. Kentucky
3. Arkansas
2. Mississippi
1. West Virginia

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2012/10/15/americas-best-and-worst-educated-states/

Seeing the corrolation yet?

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 02:12 PM
These are the ten poorest states...number one being the poorest... notice a correlation. want to see their educational levels, too? their unwed motherhood rates?

10. oklahoma
9. south carolina
8. louisiana
7. tenessee
6. new mexico
5. kentucky
4. alabama
3. west virginia
2 arkansas
1. mississippi

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/09/19/americas-richest-and-poorest-states/7/

I'm not sure what their metric is. I lived in Tennessee, I've been all over the state. Matter of fact, I know Tennessee better than California, and I lived in California for the first 19 years of my life, and only lived in Tennessee for 2. Either we handle our poor VERY well, or their metric is off.

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:13 PM
Are you being a sexual Puritan?

What's this supposed to show me? Of those only #7 is a top ten mooch. The others seem to get by without federal dollars like California, New York, and Pennsylvania.

ha! no. but the reality is that the single largest group on welfare is white single mothers by number...

and when abortion is readily available and safe and contraception is readily available and safe, there isn't as much poverty.

conversely, when the economy is good, abortion rates drop

Chris
10-11-2013, 02:13 PM
absolutely. most states are purple.

but she claimed millions more live in red states.

therefore, it was the above map that was relevant to her assertion.

also, if she weren't making it up in her head, she'd realize if there were that many more people in red states than blue states, there a) wouldn't have been a democratic president elected by more than 5 million votes ... twice; and b) democrats wouldn't have gotten a million more votes in the House of Representatives.


All states are purple. There is no such thing as red and blue states. The myth is irrelevant.


Make it up in head? You mean like "you've already been corrected on that subject."



5 million, what's that, out of ~241,000,000 eligible to vote, 0.02%.

Chris
10-11-2013, 02:15 PM
I couldn't find a link that detailed strictly what most people call welfare (food stamps, etc) and the link in the op simply says "caseload" with no dollar amounts.

I did find this link, and the top 10 are ALL red states. Some of them do get military spending counted but not all.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_reckoning/2012/10/25/blue_state_red_face_guess_who_benefits_more_from_y our_taxes.html

Look at Mississippi, Alaska, West Virginia, North Dakota and Kentucky.


IOW, you found what you wanted to find.

Impressive.

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:16 PM
I'm not sure what their metric is. I lived in Tennessee, I've been all over the state. Matter of fact, I know Tennessee better than California, and I lived in California for the first 19 years of my life, and only lived in Tennessee for 2. Either we handle our poor VERY well, or their metric is off.

thier metric is average income if you look at the article

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:19 PM
@jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719) from your own Slate link:

1. New MexicoIndian reservations, military bases, federal research labs, farm subsidies, retirement programs


2. Mississippi Farm subsidies, military spending, nutrition and anti-poverty aid, retirement programs.


3. Alaska Per capita No 1 recipient of federal benefits; infrastructure projects, DOT and pork projects.

4. Louisiana Disaster relief, farm subsidies, anti-poverty and nutrition aid, military spending.


5. W. Virginia Farm subsidies, anti-poverty and nutrition aid.

6. N. Dakota Farm subsidies, energy subsidies, retirement and anti-poverty programs, Indian reservations.

7. Alabama Retirement programs, anti-poverty and nutrition aid, federal space/military spending, farm subsidies.


8. S. Dakota Retirement programs, nutrition aid, farm subsidies, military spending, Indian reservations.

9. Virginia Civil service pensions, military spending, veterans benefits, retirement, anti-poverty aid.


10. Kentucky Retirement programs, nutritional and anti-poverty aid, farm subsidies.


They all also say "retirement programs" which are a payroll tax and that's what you put in you get back, also "indian reservations"...that's a treaty.

Done making my point for me. :)

nic34
10-11-2013, 02:22 PM
5 million, what's that, out of ~241,000,000 eligible to vote, 0.02%


I'l file that away for the next voter fraud thread..... :laugh:

Ravi
10-11-2013, 02:24 PM
IOW, you found what you wanted to find.

Impressive.
No, I wanted to find a link that described total dollar amounts spent per state. What I found was just a bonus that blew this silly thread out of the water.

What you found was your normal want: a thread to whine in.

:thup:

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:27 PM
No, I wanted to find a link that described total dollar amounts spent per state. What I found was just a bonus that blew this silly thread out of the water.

What you found was your normal want: a thread to whine in.

:thup:


Really how? It just proved I was right about military spending making up the bulk of it.

Ravi
10-11-2013, 02:30 PM
Really how? It just proved I was right about military spending making up the bulk of it.
Out of the top 10 states receiving the most federal dollars, all are red states and 5 of them do not receiving military funding. You know what that means, right? Discounting military funding, the top 5 welfare states are red states.

Sorry, kid, you never win against Ravi. :grin:

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:31 PM
Out of the top 10 states receiving the most federal dollars, all are red states and 5 of them do not receiving military funding. You know what that means, right? Discounting military funding, the top 5 welfare states are red states.

Sorry, kid, you never win against Ravi. :grin:

we love the ravi. ;)

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 02:31 PM
thier metric is average income if you look at the article

Ah. That's not so bad then.

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:33 PM
Ah. That's not so bad then.

No worries.. I report... you decide. ;)

Chris
10-11-2013, 02:40 PM
5 million, what's that, out of ~241,000,000 eligible to vote, 0.02%


I'l file that away for the next voter fraud thread..... :laugh:

Point was utterly simple, 5 mil sounds enormous by itself, miniscule in relation to total number of voters.

Chris
10-11-2013, 02:41 PM
No, I wanted to find a link that described total dollar amounts spent per state. What I found was just a bonus that blew this silly thread out of the water.

What you found was your normal want: a thread to whine in.

:thup:



Snarky arrogance is not an argument.

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:43 PM
Out of the top 10 states receiving the most federal dollars, all are red states and 5 of them do not receiving military funding. You know what that means, right? Discounting military funding, the top 5 welfare states are red states.

Sorry, kid, you never win against Ravi. :grin:
Ravi jillian

I said:


The bottom ten--those that take the least amount of money for federal welfare handouts include: Virginia (go VA!), Arkansas (wtf?), Utah, Wisconsin, and so forth, but I'm surprised that Wyoming takes the least.


That's in the OP. Farm subsidies, while nice, obscure the OP. Cute touch though and we almost went down that straw man path.

back to federal welfare handouts.

http://www.youargue.com/images/InspiredEconomist/TableII.jpg

Now, where is your counter to the HHS figures?

jillian
10-11-2013, 02:43 PM
Snarky arrogance is not an argument.

so stop

Green Arrow
10-11-2013, 02:46 PM
No worries.. I report... you decide. ;)

Thanks :D

Ever been to Tennessee, by the way? Great state ;)

Alyosha
10-11-2013, 02:46 PM
Still waiting for alternative figures on federal welfare handouts from you guys. BTW, there's a reason why densely populated blue state California takes more federal welfare handouts.

Mister D
10-11-2013, 02:49 PM
Still waiting for alternative figures on federal welfare handouts from you guys. BTW, there's a reason why densely populated blue state California takes more federal welfare handouts.

The reason in CA's case is the demographic change it's experienced over the last 25-30 years.

jillian
10-11-2013, 03:05 PM
BTW, @jillian (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=719)...do you trust PBS (http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/defensemap.html)? I just want to know because I'm waiting with evidence. :)

It looks a bit like this:

In all but a handful of states, Department of Defense dollars account for by far the majority of federal dollars. States in which the Department of Energy provides the greatest amount are those which are host to major military research laboratories like Oak Ridge in Tennessee and Los Alamos and Sandia Labs in New Mexico or the atomic testing ranges of Nevada. Check out your state's share below.

http://www.fpdc.gov/fpdc/fpdc_home.htm

^^shut down for the budget crisis


My point is that unless you have a paragraph that suggests that those figures are absent of federal dollars I will have to continue to disagree.
Alyosha... will look at your numbers when i get home since i have to pick up the boy and get home. as of right now, i'll just point out that Ravi pointed out that the poorest states correlate to the states taking the most federal dollars

but i'll be back. ;)

laterz.

Chris
10-11-2013, 03:06 PM
so stop

Wish ravi would.

Chris
10-11-2013, 03:11 PM
Let's face it though folks, military base funding, farm subsidies, infrastructure, all these are forms of welfare, corporate welfare, for who else does the majority of the funding go to but corporations big enough to purchase favors from our grand old government. Social welfare in minor in comparison, and besides keeping the poor poor, where else does this welfare end up but mostly in the hands of corporate giants who sell the foods, medicine and other daily needs, or the giants who produce it.

lynn
10-12-2013, 10:17 AM
My information comes from the U.S. Census Bureau on Health Insurance by state for 2011. The site is census.gov. I also reviewed each states budget to verify those numbers. Whether they are purple, blue or red states, I went by what each state is represented by right now. They are defined by Republican or Democratic on which states are expanding Medicaid, there is no purple option.

For the record I do not like the Republicans or the Democrats and I view them as equally responsible for the corruption in our government. I prefer we fire them all and start over again with a more honest system of government. As long as people stubbornly want to blame one or the other party, instead of realizing that we must unite together to assert the power of the people, we will be continually be ignored by those that govern us.