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View Full Version : 6 Months After Obama Promised To Divulge More On Drones



Green Arrow
11-11-2013, 07:03 AM
Here's what we still don't know (http://www.propublica.org/article/6-months-after-obama-promised-to-divulge-more-on-drones-heres-what-we-still)


Nearly six months ago, President Obama promised more transparency and tighter policies around targeted killings. In a speech (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/05/23/remarks-president-national-defense-university), Obama vowed that the U.S. would only use force against a “continuing and imminent threat to the American people.” It would fire only when there was “near-certainty” civilians would not be killed or injured, and when capture was not feasible.

The number of drone strikes has dropped (http://www.longwarjournal.org/pakistan-strikes.php) this year, but they’ve continued to make headlines. On Friday, a U.S. drone killed the head of the Pakistani Taliban (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/01/us-pakistan-drone-hakimullah-idUSBRE9A00QY20131101). A few days earlier came the first drone strike in Somalia (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/world/africa/pentagon-says-shabab-bomb-specialist-is-killed-in-missile-strike-in-somalia.html?ref=world) in nearly two years (http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/22/get-the-data-somalias-hidden-war/). How much has changed since the president’s speech?


We don’t know the U.S. count of civilian deaths


The administration says that it has a count of civilian deaths (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/10/22/ap_reporter_grills_state_dept_spokeswoman_on_civil ian_casualties_of_drone_strikes.html), and that there is a “wide gap (http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/22/21065224-white-house-admits-killing-civilians-with-drone-strikes-denies-breaking-law?lite)” between U.S. and independent figures. But the administration won’t release its own figures.
Outside (http://www.longwarjournal.org/) estimates (http://natsec.newamerica.net/drones/pakistan/analysis) of total civilian deaths (http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/) since 2002 range (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115353/civilian-casualties-drone-strikes-why-we-know-so-little) from just over 200 to more than 1,000. The Pakistani government has given three different numbers (http://blogs.cfr.org/zenko/2013/10/30/how-many-pakistani-civilians-have-been-killed-by-cia-drones/): 400, 147, and 67.
McClatchy (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/04/09/188062/obamas-drone-war-kills-others.html) and the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/top-pakistani-leaders-secretly-backed-cia-drone-campaign-secret-documents-show/2013/10/23/15e6b0d8-3beb-11e3-b6a9-da62c264f40e_story_2.html) obtained intelligence documents showing that for long stretches of time, the CIA estimated few or no civilian deaths. The documents also confirmed the use of signature strikes (http://www.propublica.org/article/drone-war-doctrine-we-know-nothing-about), in which the U.S. targets people without knowing their identity. The CIA categorized many of those killed as simply “other militants” or “foreign fighters.” The Post wrote that the agency sometimes designated “militants” with what seemed like circumstantial or vague evidence, such as “men who were ‘probably’ involved in cross-border attacks” in Afghanistan.


The administration reportedly curtailed (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/criticism-alters-us-drone-program-pakistan) signature strikes this year, though the new guidelines don’t necessarily preclude them. A White House factsheet released around Obama’s speech said (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/05/23/fact-sheet-us-policy-standards-and-procedures-use-force-counterterrorism#_ftnref1) that “it is not the case that all military-aged males in the vicinity of a target are deemed to be combatants.” It did not say that people must be identified. (In any case, the U.S. has not officially acknowledged the policy of signature strikes.)


Attorney General Eric Holder confirmed (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/05/23/us/politics/23holder-drone-lettter.html) only that four Americans have been killed by drone strikes since 2009: Anwar al Awlaki (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/anwar_al_awlaki/index.html) and his sixteen-year-old son, Abdulrahman (http://www.thenation.com/article/173980/inside-americas-dirty-wars), Samir Khan (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/01/world/middleeast/samir-khan-killed-by-drone-spun-out-of-the-american-middle-class.html), and Jude Kenan Mohammed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/jude-kenan-mohammad-arrested-by-pakistan_n_3325869.html). Holder said that only the elder Awlaki was “specifically targeted,” but did not explain how the others came to be killed.


Although Obama said that this disclosure was intended to “facilitate transparency and debate (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/24/us/politics/transcript-of-obamas-speech-on-drone-policy.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all),” since then, the administration has not commented on specific allegations of civilian deaths (http://www.propublica.org/article/boys-death-in-drone-strike-tests-obamas-transparency-pledge).


We don’t know exactly who can be targeted


The list of groups that the military considers “associated forces” of Al Qaeda is classified (http://www.propublica.org/article/who-are-we-at-war-with-thats-classified). The administration has declared (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/06/14/letter-president-regarding-war-powers-resolution) that it targets members of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and “elements” of Al Shabaab, but there are still questions about how the U.S. determines that an individual belonging to those groups is in fact a “continuing and imminent threat.” (After the terror alarm that led to the closing of U.S. embassies this summer, officials told the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/world/embassies-open-but-yemen-stays-on-terror-watch.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp&pagewanted=all&) they had “expanded the scope of people [they] could go after” in Yemen.)


This ties into the debate over civilian casualties: The government would seem to consider some people legitimate targets that others don’t (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115329/amnesty-international-human-rights-watch-drone-reports-are-flawed).


http://media.dcentertainment.com/sites/default/files/MAD-Magazine-Drone-Ranger.jpg

GrassrootsConservative
11-11-2013, 08:12 AM
Have you seen my signature yet?

/Edit: Seems quite relevant. I'm done worrying about those in the Middle East that Obama is predator droning.

Codename Section
11-11-2013, 08:16 AM
http://cdn.arwrath.com/7/79480.jpg


The worst part is all these factions are handing over intel to the CIA just like drug cartels do so that they can implicate people they don't like, not necessarily AQ. We've shot hellfires at several targetst that ended up not being tangos and where dozens or more people were killed that had nothing to do with this.

If we heard that the leader of _______________ cell was in south London would we invade their airspace to shoot a hellfire? No. Would we if we heard that it was in a part of Israel heavily populated by Jews instead of Palestinians? No.

We are only taking these "acceptable risks" because no one cares about people whose name has "al" or "el" somewhere in it.

Professor Peabody
11-11-2013, 12:03 PM
http://cdn.arwrath.com/7/79480.jpg


The worst part is all these factions are handing over intel to the CIA just like drug cartels do so that they can implicate people they don't like, not necessarily AQ. We've shot hellfires at several targetst that ended up not being tangos and where dozens or more people were killed that had nothing to do with this.

If we heard that the leader of _______________ cell was in south London would we invade their airspace to shoot a hellfire? No. Would we if we heard that it was in a part of Israel heavily populated by Jews instead of Palestinians? No.

We are only taking these "acceptable risks" because no one cares about people whose name has "al" or "el" somewhere in it.

A favorite quote of mine.........

“Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.” ― John Wayne (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/45481.John_Wayne)

Adelaide
11-11-2013, 12:46 PM
http://cdn.arwrath.com/7/79480.jpg


The worst part is all these factions are handing over intel to the CIA just like drug cartels do so that they can implicate people they don't like, not necessarily AQ. We've shot hellfires at several targetst that ended up not being tangos and where dozens or more people were killed that had nothing to do with this.

If we heard that the leader of _______________ cell was in south London would we invade their airspace to shoot a hellfire? No. Would we if we heard that it was in a part of Israel heavily populated by Jews instead of Palestinians? No.

We are only taking these "acceptable risks" because no one cares about people whose name has "al" or "el" somewhere in it.

Excellent point, and image.

The Wash
11-11-2013, 01:10 PM
http://cdn.arwrath.com/7/79480.jpg


The worst part is all these factions are handing over intel to the CIA just like drug cartels do so that they can implicate people they don't like, not necessarily AQ. We've shot hellfires at several targetst that ended up not being tangos and where dozens or more people were killed that had nothing to do with this.

If we heard that the leader of _______________ cell was in south London would we invade their airspace to shoot a hellfire? No. Would we if we heard that it was in a part of Israel heavily populated by Jews instead of Palestinians? No.

We are only taking these "acceptable risks" because no one cares about people whose name has "al" or "el" somewhere in it.


This. It's the undiscriminating attitude we seem to have when it comes to non-white nations in our bombing and our overly cautious attitudes we have regarding white nations or China.

Our intel is one dudes word against another.

Codename Section
11-11-2013, 03:26 PM
This. It's the undiscriminating attitude we seem to have when it comes to non-white nations in our bombing and our overly cautious attitudes we have regarding white nations or China.

Our intel is one dudes word against another.

What I find frustrating and why I can't vote two party is that what is moral is dependent upon who is in the White House. Like on that other thread the liberals throw up a straw man of "Bush..." and is this worse than____________.

You can like both chocolate and strawberry ice cream. You can hate both Teen Mom and the Kardassians. You can think both Bush and Obama suck.

I feel like pounding my head against a brick wall because once we desensitize the public to drones overseas to fight terrorism, next step is here based on the way our country has gone over the last decade.

The Xl
11-11-2013, 03:28 PM
I like ice cream, and Kim Kardashian could get it.

Wait, what are we talking about again?

Codename Section
11-11-2013, 03:33 PM
I like ice cream, and Kim Kardashian could get it.

Wait, what are we talking about again?

This unfortunately

http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/files/2013/08/1185087_10151838546889695_1367479025_n-Code-Pink-timeline-photos-September-5-2013.jpg

The Xl
11-11-2013, 03:35 PM
This unfortunately

http://blog.timesunion.com/wagingpeace/files/2013/08/1185087_10151838546889695_1367479025_n-Code-Pink-timeline-photos-September-5-2013.jpg

My daydream was better.

AmazonTania
11-11-2013, 07:36 PM
Why do you guys hate drones so much?

Drones are essentially to the Western way of life.