A compelling case for shooting cops. Tread carefully.

[Cthulhu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIIKh7Iyf1M

Main points brought up around 7:20 mark, although they whole video is interesting enough if you have patience enough to watch it. Cameras may not be enough. Given the legal climate of the country. Especially when the prosecutor decides whether or not to prosecute, and when the police are the ones who investigate themselves for wrong doing and handle the evidence.

Take this one with a grain of salt. But I admit, he has a compelling point. If legal recourse is not an effective deterrent, what is a human being left with to inspire good policing?

[The Xl]

I don't know what should be done, all I know is, cops do whatever the fuck they want, without fear of repercussion, and it needs to change.

[Peter1469]

I wish we never militarized the cops.

[Common]

Yes very good idea, try and kill cops, that wont be as easy or as satisfying for anyone in the end.

[Chris]

I wish we never militarized the cops.

Recent story: Local police fight crime with 18-ton armored military vehicles (http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/26/5147098/local-police-fight-crime-with-18-ton-armored-military-vehicles).

http://i.snag.gy/oMDd4.jpg

[Chris]

As to OP, no, unless it's in self-defense, I don't think it's justified.

[Peter1469]

Recent story: Local police fight crime with 18-ton armored military vehicles (http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/26/5147098/local-police-fight-crime-with-18-ton-armored-military-vehicles).



The military is giving police departments a lot of excess from Afghanistan.

[Common]

Im the first to admit police make mistakes, they always have made mistakes and there has always been BAD COPS that committed crimes.

I also admit im shocked at how much more often it seems to be happening now. There are some things police have done recently that I can honestly tell you I have not only never seen Ive never heard of that happening in my time.

Police have a need to advance technologically, the criminals have access to it.

Cops used to carry 6 shot 38s that at times would NOT Stop an individual. Then then went to 357 magnums because all the bad guys already had them. Then eventually they went to semi auto 40s
They have since been trained in rifles and Assault rifles. Let me show you one reason why.

Dozens of police officers couldnt stop two heavily armored bank robbers with Assault rifles and unlimited ammunition. This was a routine day for police that all changed suddenly. The police were outgunned and helpless to defend citizens caught in the crossfire.
Keep in mind this is just one example there are tons more. I dont normally get involved in the hate on cops threads because the true cop haters are few, most citizens do not hate police.


http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=california+assault+rifle+shoot+out+with+ar mored+bank+robbers

[Peter1469]

That was a great video. I wouldn't oppose SWAT teams so long as they were only used for something as serious as this. Too many times they have gotten an address wrong and stacked into the wrong house, sometimes killing people and or pets.

[Cthulhu]

Recent story: Local police fight crime with 18-ton armored military vehicles (http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/26/5147098/local-police-fight-crime-with-18-ton-armored-military-vehicles).

http://i.snag.gy/oMDd4.jpg

Great, police now get MRAPs. Hope they don't plan to actually use them to brutalize the peasantry, because they are quite easily taken out. They have good armor, but are made badly. They are a piece of crap.

[Chris]

Great, police now get MRAPs. Hope they don't plan to actually use them to brutalize the peasantry, because they are quite easily taken out. They have good armor, but are made badly. They are a piece of crap.

Didn't know that. I think it's an intimidation factor. It does depend on how they use them. For self-protection, fine, for another Waco, no.

[Cthulhu]

Yes very good idea, try and kill cops, that wont be as easy or as satisfying for anyone in the end.

I don't think anybody was making that point. Suffice it to say I agree with you. It would suck slightly less then getting killed wrongfully though.


Im the first to admit police make mistakes, they always have made mistakes and there has always been BAD COPS that committed crimes.

I also admit im shocked at how much more often it seems to be happening now. There are some things police have done recently that I can honestly tell you I have not only never seen Ive never heard of that happening in my time.

Police have a need to advance technologically, the criminals have access to it.

Cops used to carry 6 shot 38s that at times would NOT Stop an individual. Then then went to 357 magnums because all the bad guys already had them. Then eventually they went to semi auto 40s
They have since been trained in rifles and Assault rifles. Let me show you one reason why.

Dozens of police officers couldnt stop two heavily armored bank robbers with Assault rifles and unlimited ammunition. This was a routine day for police that all changed suddenly. The police were outgunned and helpless to defend citizens caught in the crossfire.

When the bad guys start habitually rolling around with .50 caliber machine guns and armored vehicles I will consider giving police equivalent fire power.

You do have a point regarding escalation, and it is valid. But this is beyond overkill. This is using a 10 pound sledgehammer to swat a fly.



Keep in mind this is just one example there are tons more. I dont normally get involved in the hate on cops threads because the true cop haters are few, most citizens do not hate police.


I would agree, most people don't hate the police, just like they don't hate their grocer, or their mechanic - until they get rubbed the wrong way that is. The police are in a strange spot though, seemingly immune from legal recourse and discipline in some jurisdictions. Now obviously, most cops are not monsters - I know that. But the number of incidents is increasing and it needs to stop. I think good cops are great, I have met a few of them and they are sterling people. At least when they are not de facto tax collectors for 'crimes' lacking a valid standing for tort or corpus delicti. People who guard others have my respect.

But when they use their power for unrighteous dominion and then cover up their foul deeds? Well, it's tough to like those specific cops at all.

[Common]

C i dont disagree with alot of your points, I do know that you just like everyone else that are not police do not know the big picture or do you see it. Not your fault you cant.

I can stay in this thread and post all kinds of proveable facts, like police mistakes pale and are a minute fraction of all the good they do. It wont matter, once someone hates something and forms an opinion you cant change it :)

[Cthulhu]

Didn't know that. I think it's an intimidation factor. It does depend on how they use them. For self-protection, fine, for another Waco, no.

That is exactly what they will be used for though.

As for the vehicle, the suspension in the front is the easy target. And all you need is a molotov cocktail, or a grenade tied to a towel that is coat in something really sticky - sticky bomb. The blast won't hurt the vehicle, but the sudden over pressure will really mess up that guy in the turret and render him combat ineffective.

And all you have to do is pepper the vision blocks to effectively blind it. Of course you could also just set the tires on fire with 1 part motor oil, 1 part diesel, and 1 part gasoline. You only need to take out a couple of them before is is essentially immobile.

That as they are terrible off road. Mud and sand are that thing's archenemy.

[Chris]

That is exactly what they will be used for though.

As for the vehicle, the suspension in the front is the easy target. And all you need is a molotov cocktail, or a grenade tied to a towel that is coat in something really sticky - sticky bomb. The blast won't hurt the vehicle, but the sudden over pressure will really mess up that guy in the turret and render him combat ineffective.

And all you have to do is pepper the vision blocks to effectively blind it. Of course you could also just set the tires on fire with 1 part motor oil, 1 part diesel, and 1 part gasoline. You only need to take out a couple of them before is is essentially immobile.

That as they are terrible off road. Mud and sand are that thing's archenemy.


I'd've thought they'd've been made for off road, mud and sand. Sort of like healthcare.gov then. ;-)

[Common]

The reason for armored vehicles that the public doesnt know is the upsurge in armor piercing ammo that have the ability to punch right through Kevlar and unarmored vehicles.

You have to understand that high powered rifles with armored piercing rounds are NOT UNCOMMON anymore.

Like this or not Police have every right to go home at night safe even though they realize and accept that might not happen, they have every right to expect to have any equiptement and protection that allows them to get home safe.

The bad guys have no restrictions on them. Saw a video recently with an armor plated enclosed bulldozer made by a pissed off citizen at the town govt, he destroyed the town and the police couldnt stop him.

[Cthulhu]

I'd've thought they'd've been made for off road, mud and sand. Sort of like healthcare.gov then. ;-)

You'd think that by the way they look, but they are terrible, at least for the mission they are called to do anyways. I pulled out many a couple when I was deployed with the 7 ton. The 7 ton is a grizzly machine. If they gave the PDs 7 tons I would be worried.

[Cthulhu]

The reason for armored vehicles that the public doesnt know is the upsurge in armor piercing ammo that have the ability to punch right through Kevlar and unarmored vehicles.

You have to understand that high powered rifles with armored piercing rounds are NOT UNCOMMON anymore.

While this is all true. The escalation of force makes it worse. Because they are going to use weaponry to deal with this new threat, which means higher collateral damage. And really, it is ineffective. It looks scary, but it is not the most effective for city combat.

It would only cost me 35 bucks to take out one of these things with a catastrophic kill. And I could do it from a safe distance.

Maybe 10 bucks to disable it.

But then again, I'm not your average gangbanger either.



Like this or not Police have every right to go home at night safe even though they realize and accept that might not happen, they have every right to expect to have any equiptement and protection that allows them to get home safe.

I agree, but we need to ask ourselves if we are at war with our civilian population. If we are, than why are we fighting them? How did it get this way? Prevention is the solution, not armored vehicles used for war.



The bad guys have no restrictions on them. Saw a video recently with an armor plated enclosed bulldozer made by a pissed off citizen at the town govt, he destroyed the town and the police couldnt stop him.

Link?

[Peter1469]

Great, police now get MRAPs. Hope they don't plan to actually use them to brutalize the peasantry, because they are quite easily taken out. They have good armor, but are made badly. They are a piece of crap.

One of the federal law enforcement agencies has several types of APC parked along the street. Maybe they have upgraded to MRAPs. It has been a while since I walked past. It is close to the Judiciary Square metro stop.

[Common]

While this is all true. The escalation of force makes it worse. Because they are going to use weaponry to deal with this new threat, which means higher collateral damage. And really, it is ineffective. It looks scary, but it is not the most effective for city combat.

It would only cost me 35 bucks to take out one of these things with a catastrophic kill. And I could do it from a safe distance.

Maybe 10 bucks to disable it.

But then again, I'm not your average gangbanger either.



I agree, but we need to ask ourselves if we are at war with our civilian population. If we are, than why are we fighting them? How did it get this way? Prevention is the solution, not armored vehicles used for war.



Link?


here ya go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qOb3ISYN0

[Peter1469]

I'd've thought they'd've been made for off road, mud and sand. Sort of like healthcare.gov then. ;-)

They weren't made for off road. MRAP stands for Mine-resistance, Ambush Protected vehicle.

I can't believe that I am linking to a USMC site.... (http://www.marines.com/operating-forces/equipment/vehicles/mrap)

[Peter1469]

You'd think that by the way they look, but they are terrible, at least for the mission they are called to do anyways. I pulled out many a couple when I was deployed with the 7 ton. The 7 ton is a grizzly machine. If they gave the PDs 7 tons I would be worried.

They are too heavy for off road. It would need to ditch the wheels for tracks to be used off road.

[Cthulhu]

They are too heavy for off road. It would need to ditch the wheels for tracks to be used off road.

Eh...they sort of work off road, but nothing near as good as the old humvee or jeep. The 7 ton dominates though. I have never gotten one stuck.

[Chris]

They weren't made for off road. MRAP stands for Mine-resistance, Ambush Protected vehicle.

I can't believe that I am linking to a USMC site.... (http://www.marines.com/operating-forces/equipment/vehicles/mrap)



So they're basically anti-IED vehicles. By the height I'd though off road.

[Peter1469]

So they're basically anti-IED vehicles. By the height I'd though off road.

Yes anti IED. We made MRAPs in record time after the Iranians began to flood the Iraqi Shiites with explosive formed projectiles (IED made to direct the explosion in one direction).

My old national guard unit went to Iraq before the MRAPs and two guys who were my privates (and at that time senior NCOs) when I was there were KIA when an EFP blew their Bradley Fighting Vehicle into the air and it flipped over smashing one of them- he was standing in the the turret. I am not sure how the other one bought it. Every else inside was badly injured.

The MRAPs are designed to prevent that (the V shaped hull, which is why it has to sit high). Even when an MRAP was destroyed by an EFP, the troops largely survived.

[bobgnote]

We get ourselves a functional US Constitution, or we will eventually balkanize.

See THE POSTMAN, with Kevin Costner, Will Patton, and a cameo, by Tom Petty. This 1997 film nudges, how war is coming, with all the other major films, of the period, see The Siege, Starship Troopers, Executive Decision, et al.

Will Patton's character, General Bethlehem nudges the intro, of Tom Petty, as himself, when 'Gen.B' describes, how he was a "copy machine salesman," before the pre-2013, apocolyptic war, which left the US balkanized.

Petty is an NSA-fed, corporate vampire, who makes zillions, from note-for-note duplication, of surveillance feeds, like all kinds of bands, titled AC-ZZ.

General Bethlehem's army is named after some dead guy, but General B runs the thing, as a ruthless tyrant, which is where today's pig-cops and lawyers are, really.

See Justice Elena Kagan, on C-SPAN, describing how she likes hunting, with Justice Scalia, in front of a giggly U of Alabama LS crowd.

See also Taylor Kitsch, in JOHN CARTER, featuring a digital Martian dog, 'Woola,' which if cross-bred, with Lynn Collins' Deja Thoris would produce lotsa little Martian Sonia Sotomayor-puppies, if only the Science Academy could perfect the green Martian hatcheries, for justice.

We probably won't get a new constitution, until Mars is colonized, but we sure will risk balkanization, if the pigs keep trying to pretend they aren't violating due process and security, for poorly-concealed profiteering, for which review is evaded.