Democrats lose youth vote

[Codename Section]

Hmmmm, what can this mean that those of us under 30 are no longer believing that the two party system works for us?

Poll

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1975



POLITICAL PHILSPHY ANNUAL HSHOLD INC AGE IN YRS.............. Lib Mod Con <50K 50-100 >100K 18-29 30-49 50-64 65+ Approve 73% 46% 12% 39% 40% 40% 36% 40% 40% 36% Disapprove 18 47 84 52 55 56 54 51 56 59 DK/NA 9 7 4 8 5 4 10 9 5 5



For the first time today, American voters say 52 - 44 percent that Obama is not honest and trustworthy. His previous lowest marks on honesty were May 30, when 49 percent of voters said he was honest and 47 percent said he wasn't.




"Like all new presidents, President Barack Obama had a honeymoon with American voters, with approval ratings in the high 50s. As the marriage wore on, he kept his job approval scores in the respectable, though not overwhelming, 40s. Today, for the first time it appears that 40 percent floor is cracking," said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.




"Any Democrat with an 11-point approval deficit among women is in trouble. And any elected official with an 8-point trust deficit is in serious trouble."




"President Obama's job approval rating has fallen to the level of former President George W. Bush at the same period of his Presidency," Malloy said.




American voters say 53 - 43 percent that the Obama Administration has not been competent running the government. By a similar 51 - 43 percent margin, voters say Obama is not paying enough attention to what his administration is doing.








The questions are listed in the poll.

Reason's take on it


A new Quinnipiac Poll finds that only 36 percent of voters between the ages of 18 and 29 approve of the job the president is doing while fully 54 percent of the kids give him the thumbs down (10 percent didn’t know or care enough to respond to the topic). Back in March 2009, 62 percent (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/search-releases/search-results/release-detail?ReleaseID=1270&What=&strArea=;&strTime=28) of 18 to 29 years approved, compared to just 20 percent disapproving.
Millennials may be young, but they’re not stupid. As bad as Obama’s time in office has been for older Americans, nobody (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/10/why-millennials-are-struggling.html) has taken it on the chin quite as bad as kids under 30, who are more likely to be unemployed, broke (http://reason.com/archives/2012/07/23/generational-warfare), and facing decades of sub-par wages if and when they do finally get a job.


Observers sympathetic to the president and a progressive Democratic agenda chalk the sharp decline up to the clusterfucked rollout of Obamacare. “Because they came of age watching a Republican president fail massively in Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, and the financial crisis, Millennials are predisposed to favor Democrats,” writes Peter Beinart (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/18/love-affair-over-obamacare-debacle-shakes-up-millennial-politics.html), coming up with arguably the most inventive new variation on the old “blame Bush” meme. Beinart notes that even as Millennials are less trusting of government than Gen Xers and baby boomers had been in their 20s, they were more likely to support both Obama and his health care reform plan. “If Obamacare never gets fixed,” frets Beinart, “it might just sour the single best relationship the Democratic Party has: its love affair with the young.”


Well, then, the Dems are officially on the market for a new love connection. While there’s no question that the launch of Obamacare has been a major disaster, the fact is that the youth revolt against Obama started almost immediately after he moved into the White House. In 2008, Obama won 66 percent of votes cast by 18-29 year olds. In 2012, he racked up just 60 percent. More tellingly, the participation rate among younger voters dropped precipitously between those elections, with Obama pulling 2.4 million fewer votes (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-lost-2-4-million-young-voters-2012-161508263.html) from 18-29 year olds in 2012. The second time around, he just wasn’t putting young asses in the voting booth anymore.


Who can blame them for not showing up? The abysmal and pathetic (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/17/the-abysmal-pathetic-obamacare-rollout.html) launch of healthcare.gov is simply the cherry on top of a shit sundae Obama’s been whipping up for the kids. You can protest that the stimulus should have been bigger, but when you judge its success against what the Obama administration claimed it would do, it was an epic fail (http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/08/why-obamas-stimulus-failed-a-case-study). While masquerading as the peace and freedom candidate – easy to do against such hawkish characters as Hillary Clinton in the primaries and John McCain in the general election – Obama prided himself on tripling troop strength in Afghanistan and tried to extend our stays there and in Iraq. But for the vocal pushback (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/06/the-rise-of-the-antiwar-libertarians.html) from Rand Paul, Justin Amash, and a bunch of younger, non-interventionist Republicans, there’s every reason that the U.S. would have started an unsanctioned war in Syria, just as it did in Libya (where things are working out...how, again?).


The president has been genuinely awful on pot legalization and dragged his feet on gay marriage – issues on which younger voters are in front of the general population – and he spent his first term deporting more immigrants than George W. Bush managed to in eight years (despite minor reprieves announced in time for the 2012 elections, the deportations (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-heads-deportation-milestone-article-1.1476073) keep on happening). The revelations of widespread, Obama-approved drone strikes, the compilation of a presidential kill list, and the data collection of phone logs and internet traffic don’t exactly inspire warm and fuzzy feelings from a generation that lives online. His response to the Gulf oil spill was dithering to non-existent (http://reason.com/reasontv/2010/06/10/3-reasons-why-obama-should-kic) and his alt-energy plans have come to naught even as fracking has put the country on a path to something like energy independence (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/11/18/obamacare-rollout-obama-health-care-column/3618899/).

[Cigar]

The Truth always comes after all The Votes have been tallied; history and demographic are on the side of the Truth.

[Codename Section]

The Truth always comes after all The Votes have been tallied; history and demographic are on the side of the Truth.

It did. Look at exit polls and compare them to 2008. :D The youth aren't voting for you guys. But hey...you still have women. They're hot.

[Cthulhu]

It is an interesting take for sure. It is very accurate as well. The older folks seem oblivious, or too invested in their partisan club to see reason, and the very young are too ignorant to care because they are busy being doped up with the latest media junk and hand held device.

The fate of the most powerful nation on earth rests in the hands of disenfranchised 30 year olds, + or - 5 years or so. With a growing segment of disgruntled veterans to boot.

Scary. The future could be a wild ride.

[The Xl]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.

[Cigar]

It is an interesting take for sure. It is very accurate as well. The older folks seem oblivious, or too invested in their partisan club to see reason, and the very young are too ignorant to care because they are busy being doped up with the latest media junk and hand held device.

The fate of the most powerful nation on earth rests in the hands of disenfranchised 30 year olds, + or - 5 years or so. With a growing segment of disgruntled veterans to boot.

Scary. The future could be a wild ride.

Don't forget ... those 47% Takers, Blacks, Browns, Women, Gays, Children, Elderly and Veterans.

Wow ... that leaves Potbelly Old White Farts in white socks, flip-flops and Guns.

You're right ... it sure is a scarey future ... for them.

[Codename Section]

It is an interesting take for sure. It is very accurate as well. The older folks seem oblivious, or too invested in their partisan club to see reason, and the very young are too ignorant to care because they are busy being doped up with the latest media junk and hand held device.

The fate of the most powerful nation on earth rests in the hands of disenfranchised 30 year olds, + or - 5 years or so. With a growing segment of disgruntled veterans to boot.

Scary. The future could be a wild ride.

Yes. :D

[countryboy]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.
Where do you get those stats. Not saying you're wrong, just asking.

[The Xl]

The Truth always comes after all The Votes have been tallied; history and demographic are on the side of the Truth.

So, you're conceding that Obama is a failure? I never expected to hear that from you.

[Codename Section]

Don't forget ... those 47% Takers, Blacks, Browns, Women, Gays, Children, Elderly and Veterans.

Wow ... that leaves Potbelly Old White Farts in white socks, flip-flops and Guns.

You're right ... it sure is a scarey future ... for them.

Veterans aren't notoriously Democratic thanks to people pelted with shit by hippies after Vietnam and the new vets are about 90% in Ron Paul's camp, 8% Republican and 2% in the tank for you guys.

Treat us like shit and we still want to own guns. :)

[Captain Obvious]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.

One day you will learn, young grasshopper.

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the biggest idiot in the world. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he learned in just 5 years"

[Cigar]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.

I'll take what I'm doing over the holidays over a 18-29 year old is doing. :laugh:

[jillian]

One day you will learn, young grasshopper.

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the biggest idiot in the world. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he learned in just 5 years"

i tell that to my folks all the time. they definitely got much smarter after i turned 21.

[Captain Obvious]

Where do you get those stats. Not saying you're wrong, just asking.

http://www.blogography.com/photos19/MonkeyAss.gif

[The Xl]

Where do you get those stats. Not saying you're wrong, just asking.

Well, conservative youth lean libertarian, and liberal youth can at least see that their guy was a failure, by their own ideals. Older folk are stubborn as all hell and keep voting for generic clowns that do the same stuff.

I'm curious to see how the youth vote in the 2016 election.

[jillian]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.


smarter? no. probably more idealistic. but not smarter.

and certainly people over 50 are less open-minded and come from a different place than todays under 50's.

[Codename Section]

One day you will learn, young grasshopper.

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the biggest idiot in the world. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he learned in just 5 years"

He's like 25. According to Mark he should think his pops is a fucking genius by now.

[Cigar]

One day you will learn, young grasshopper.

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the biggest idiot in the world. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he learned in just 5 years"

Like my Father always say; if you're lucky ... you'll get Old, if you learn anything along the way, you'll be happy.

[The Xl]

One day you will learn, young grasshopper.

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the biggest idiot in the world. When I was 21 I was amazed at how much he learned in just 5 years"

I'm 25, so that doesn't apply to me.

Politically, older people really, on average, have nothing to offer.

[The Xl]

He's like 25. According to Mark he should think his pops is a fucking genius by now.

My pops has been dead for 5 years. Still don't think he was a genius, he was kinda a "Murica fuck ya type, kinda stupid politically, which makes my point.

Sorry dad, still love ya though.

[countryboy]

Well, conservative youth lean libertarian, and liberal youth can at least see that their guy was a failure, by their own ideals. Older folk are stubborn as all hell and keep voting for generic clowns that do the same stuff.

I'm curious to see how the youth vote in the 2016 election.
So you're basically citing your own opinion?

I think the sad truth is, the average American, regardless of age, is woefully uninformed.

[The Xl]

I'll take what I'm doing over the holidays over a 18-29 year old is doing. :laugh:

I don't even want to know what you do on holidays.

[jillian]

My pops have been dead for 5 years. Still don't think he was a genius, he was kinda a "Murica fuck ya type, kinda stupid politically, which makes my point.

Sorry dad, still love ya though.

my dad is one of the smartest people i know. but his priorities are different because of his age. he is all about the bottom line. i have a more societal view of politics. we haven't agreed on pretty much anything political since we had a glass of wine over dick cheney being scum.

[The Xl]

So you're basically citing your own opinion?

I think the sad truth is, the average American, regardless of age, is woefully uninformed.

Not my own opinion. The numbers had the 18-29 year old vote going to Ron Paul in the primary, and 50+ year olds voted for that Mr. Fantastic fuckhead.

I actually agree with the bolded. It's more of a lesser of multiple evils deal, young people still aren't at the level they should be. But they're better than old people who keep voting for the same people and who generally don't have a clue.

[Codename Section]

My pops have been dead for 5 years. Still don't think he was a genius, he was kinda a "Murica fuck ya type, kinda stupid politically, which makes my point.

Sorry dad, still love ya though.

My pops treated my entire life like it was boot camp and I was his boot. Yeh. Fun. Hooray.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm 25, so that doesn't apply to me.

Politically, older people really, on average, have nothing to offer.

I think you're confusing political ambition with political knowledge/wisdom.

[jillian]

I'm 25, so that doesn't apply to me.

Politically, older people really, on average, have nothing to offer.

i hate to tell you this. but every child thinks they're the smartest person in the room.

[countryboy]

My pops have been dead for 5 years. Still don't think he was a genius, he was kinda a "Murica fuck ya type, kinda stupid politically, which makes my point.

Sorry dad, still love ya though.
My dad is getting up there in years, but sadly is a diehard union democrat. Votes straight ticket union cheat sheet.

The irony is, I was raised in a pretty much conservative household. Both of my parents were dems. I think my dad doesn't realize how whack the dems have become. Which is not to say the reps are much better.

Sorry about your dad man. Reminds me I should call mine today.

[The Xl]

My pops treated my entire life like it was boot camp and I was his boot. Yeh. Fun. Hooray.

My dad tried to mold me into a Neocon warmonger. I think his intentions were good, he probably believed all the bullshit warmongering from politicians, and felt we needed to stay in the Middle East forever. I saw that it was bullshit from a very young age, 14 or so.

[countryboy]

i hate to tell you this. but every child thinks they're the smartest person in the room.
Yes, they're kinda like libs in that regard.

[The Xl]

i hate to tell you this. but every child thinks they're the smartest person in the room.

I can back it with facts, though. That's what separates me.

Older people often think they're smartest people in the room, as well.

[Captain Obvious]

I can back it with facts, though. That's what separates me.

Older people often think they're smartest people in the room, as well.

Our dicks are bigger, you can't argue that.

[The Xl]

I think you're confusing political ambition with political knowledge/wisdom.

What's wise about voting for the likes of George Bush or Mitt Romney?

[Codename Section]

My dad tried to mold me into a Neocon warmonger. I think his intentions were good, he probably believed all the bullshit warmongering from politicians, and felt we needed to stay in the Middle East forever. I saw that it was bullshit from a very young age, 14 or so.

Ever see Full Metal Jacket? That was my every day until I got to school. Dad was Old Corps and shell shocked. There were so many times I wanted to punch him, but didn't. Meh.

[The Xl]

Our dicks are bigger, you can't argue that.

Don't they shrivel when they hit a certain age?

[Common]

The under 30 crowd are the future just like all other generations. Each generation brought to politics their own thinking. This time will be no different.

The entire demographics of politics is changing and still there is no viable 3rd party and there wont be any time soon.
Since I was a young guy people have had the same complaints about the two party system and have said the same thing about third parties. Here we are near 50 yrs later. My father said the same thing.

Until the rich with the big money that control the two parties have their hold broken its not going to change.

The "RICH" own, run and manipulate everything that happens in this country.

[countryboy]

I can back it with facts, though. That's what separates me.

Older people often think they're smartest people in the room, as well.
That's because we are. Especially us ancient 50 year olds. Now where did I put that blanket? I think I'll set in the rockin' chair fer a spell.











:D

[Codename Section]

LOL Question # 19 came back awesome


TREND: How much of the time do you think you can trust the government in Washington to do what is right; almost all of the time, most of the time, only some of the time, or hardly ever? (* Low also 15% May 2013)

[The Xl]

The under 30 crowd are the future just like all other generations. Each generation brought to politics their own thinking. This time will be no different.

The entire demographics of politics is changing and still there is no viable 3rd party and there wont be any time soon.
Since I was a young guy people have had the same complaints about the two party system and have said the same thing about third parties. Here we are near 50 yrs later. My father said the same thing.

Until the rich with the big money that control the two parties have their hold broken its not going to change.

The "RICH" own, run and manipulate everything that happens in this country.

The only group that sees this somewhat is the youth. Which is why I asserted what I did.

And by rich, I mean big money and influence, like bankers, the military industrial complex, etc.

[Captain Obvious]

Don't they shrivel when they hit a certain age?

I'll let you know when I get there.

My dad's in his late 70's nowadays, I asked him "dad - they say your mind is the first thing to go, but what's the second?"

He told me "you don't want to know".

[The Xl]

I'll let you know when I get there.

My dad's in his late 70's nowadays, I asked him "dad - they say your mind is the first thing to go, but what's the second?"

He told me "you don't want to know".

Lmfao.

[Captain Obvious]

What's wise about voting for the likes of George Bush or Mitt Romney?

Ask Bush/Romney voters. I didn't vote for either of them (well, I voted for GW first term).

You sure you're not confusing demographics here?

[The Xl]

Ask Bush/Romney voters. I didn't vote for either of them (well, I voted for GW first term).

You sure you're not confusing demographics here?

I'm pretty sure the older vote went to Bush, and I'm positive it went to Romney.

I'm not saying you as an individual, you seem like a smart cat, I'm talking about age groups as a whole.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm pretty sure the older vote went to Bush, and I'm positive it went to Romney.

I'm not saying you as an individual, you seem like a smart cat, I'm talking about age groups as a whole.

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?

[Common]

I'm pretty sure the older vote went to Bush, and I'm positive it went to Romney.

I'm not saying you as an individual, you seem like a smart cat, I'm talking about age groups as a whole.


I believe your right the youth vote helped obama big time to get re elected.

[The Xl]

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?

No. And as I've said before, I don't even consider them smart, just the lesser of all evils. The reason I made that assertion was.

-At least they turned on the dude. Say what you want about liberal youth, at least they're smart enough to see Obama for he is, a corporatist warmonger who is screwing everything up, and not a true liberal like they wanted. The polls reflect their dissatisfaction. It would appear that they've learned from this mistake, although we won't be sure until 2016.

-Young conservatives often vote libertarian, not establishment.

[Ravi]

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?
Ouch!

[jillian]

I can back it with facts, though. That's what separates me.

Older people often think they're smartest people in the room, as well.

someone over 40 can back it with facts AND experience. see, here's the thing... you can't talk intelligently about certain issues until you have skin in the game. for example, a young whippersnapper can theorize about public education but you can't really intelligently address both the positives and negatives or give a hoot unless you have a kid wending his/her way through the system.

also, to be fair, there are a lot of things i still believe that i believed when i was 20. there are some that i think i was a bit too optimistic about. mostly, i think as you get older, things become less black and white.

[Cthulhu]

Veterans aren't notoriously Democratic thanks to people pelted with shit by hippies after Vietnam and the new vets are about 90% in Ron Paul's camp, 8% Republican and 2% in the tank for you guys.

Treat us like shit and we still want to own guns. :)

I just shake my head and laugh. The civvies just don't get it. I could easily see a story like starship troopers coming forth "And the veterans took control..."

Because really, who do you think is going to tear down this house of cards if there was an insurrection? Who will check the mobs created due to supply chain inadequacy? It won't be the bleeding heart liberals who think guns are evil - they will be getting raided and likely killed in the fray.

[The Xl]

I believe your right the youth vote helped obama big time to get re elected.

Unfortunately. The lesser of all evils is still evil. Still, they know that Obama wasn't a real liberal, they at least have the awareness to recognize that. Unlike a lot of older people who still have wet dreams over Reagan, who wasn't even really a small government conservative.

[The Xl]

someone over 40 can back it with facts AND experience. see, here's the thing... you can't talk intelligently about certain issues until you have skin in the game. for example, a young whippersnapper can theorize about public education but you can't really intelligently address both the positives and negatives or give a hoot unless you have a kid wending his/her way through the system.

also, to be fair, there are a lot of things i still believe that i believed when i was 20. there are some that i think i was a bit too optimistic about. mostly, i think as you get older, things become less black and white.

If that's the case, what happened to you? You're wrong pretty much everywhere politically.

[KC]

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?

Old farts- 1

Whippersnappers- 0

[The Xl]

Old farts- 1

Whippersnappers- 0

At best, it would be a wash, because older people gave us the likes of George Bush and nominated Mitt Romney, who was a less charismatic version of Obama.

[jillian]

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?


not just younger... women, minorities... people who weren't raised to hate gays...

many other issues there. and we're not stupid enough to vote for someone who thinks social security should exist for his mom but not when i'm old enough to collect (thanks, paul ryan).

i suspect we're talking more about the ron paul type voters.

[Captain Obvious]

Old farts- 1

Whippersnappers- 0

http://crusadeagainstbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cockpunch2.jpg

[jillian]

If that's the case, what happened to you? You're wrong pretty much everywhere politically.

no. you DISAGREE with me.

for the record, you're the one who's almost always wrong politically, though i'm sure you're better at video games and faster at texting than i am.

see my point, young'un. let me know when you've worked almost 25 years and raised a family.

and don't forget to wash behind your ears.

[Cthulhu]

The younger crowd clearly were a significant factor in putting the O'bama in the WH.

That's your definition of wisdom?

The difference between the young and the old crowd is that the young crowd knows it will never receive the bennies the old crowd was promised and is still getting.

The younger crowd stumbled the first time, and likely might again, but they will learn faster than the older crowd. They are already doing so.

[The Xl]

no. you DISAGREE with me.

for the record, you're the one who's wrong.

see my point, young'un. let me know when you've worked 25 years and raised a family.

and don't forget to wash behind your ears.

No, I've slammed you with facts on plenty of issues. You having a family and whatnot is irrelevant.

I have a dog, ergo your opinion is worthless.

[Cthulhu]

not just younger... women, minorities... people who weren't raised to hate gays...

many other issues there. and we're not stupid enough to vote for someone who thinks social security should exist for his mom but not when i'm old enough to collect (thanks, paul ryan).

i suspect we're talking more about the ron paul type voters.

You think social security is going to even function in 30 years?

[Common]

Vets in my vfw have gone from strong Gop to more Dem and thats because they fear Paul ryan type budgets.

Most older vets I know disagree with much of the libertarian views socially.

The young vets that are coming in seem to hate them all and have no use for either.

To be honest we are all over the place. I couldnt put a finger on where the majority lies anymore.

The country is fractured and broken and Im at the point of disgust that Im sick of politics and at my age whatever they do isnt going to affect me anyway. Younger people have to make america what they believe it should be and america is going to change dramatically starting in 15 yrs or so when us babyboomers start checkin out.

[The Xl]

The difference between the young and the old crowd is that the young crowd knows it will never receive the bennies the old crowd was promised and is still getting.

The younger crowd stumbled the first time, and likely might again, but they will learn faster than the older crowd. They are already doing so.

This was the point I was trying to make, although you made it more clearly.

[Cigar]

Old farts- 1

Whippersnappers- 0

http://riotandfrolic.typepad.com/.a/6a015431fc4e55970c017ee5e35b15970d-800wi

[jillian]

No, I've slammed you with facts on plenty of issues. You having a family and whatnot is irrelevant.

no honey. you haven't. you simply believe what you put forth.

again, to me, that's juvenile. these issues aren't about "slamming" people. they're real life to me. and to my way of thinking it affects the world that's being left to my son...

but look at how you're flailing just being told you have a lot to learn.

[Cigar]

http://crusadeagainstbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cockpunch2.jpg

I'll say ... :laugh:

http://chickaboomer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SNAG_Program-1623-666x373.jpg

[The Xl]

no honey. you haven't. you simply believe what you put forth.

again, to me, that's juvenile. these issues aren't about "slamming" people. they're real life to me. and to my way of thinking it affects the world that's being left to my son...

but look at how you're flailing just being told you have a lot to learn.

I'd gladly debate you on any issue, how about how Democrats and Republicans are effectively the same on every major issue? I'd take you to school, sweetheart.

Flailing? Ha. Just refuting your nonsensical line of thinking.

[Cthulhu]

http://riotandfrolic.typepad.com/.a/6a015431fc4e55970c017ee5e35b15970d-800wi

I guess they can enjoy their victory as they are starving, cold, and sick because they let the government take over everything in their lives. And the government is only good at what it wants to be good at.

Case in point, we can't agree on a budget for the life of them, but the Utah Data Center, IRS, CIA, DHS etc... went on like nothing even happened.

If they really cared about us, we wouldn't have veterans backlogged in care and dying on wait lists for benefits they were promised.

If that is what you call winning, I don't want to know the definition of defeat you might have.

[jillian]

I'd gladly debate you on any issue, how about how Democrats and Republicans are effectively the same on every major issue? I'd take you to school, sweetheart.

Flailing? Ha. Just refuting your nonsensical line of thinking.

and to me you look like you're stamping your feet. seriously.

reality: we have OPINIONS. those OPINIONS are substantiated by the opinions of those we agree with. most of what you say isn't fact... it's your own opinion.

you start from a premise where you hate government. i start from a premise where i see things wrong with government but i'm not so silly that i don't understand the things that government does that we need.

[Common]

The difference between the young and the old crowd is that the young crowd knows it will never receive the bennies the old crowd was promised and is still getting.

The younger crowd stumbled the first time, and likely might again, but they will learn faster than the older crowd. They are already doing so.

Bah every generation said the same thing, you have no exclusive on that. The greatest generation were recieved the biggest rewards from social security, most never paid a dime into it and collected it their entire lives and that includes Medicare
The then younger generation the babyboomers have paid for SS and medicare from day one. Lets understand the circumstances.
My generation was forced into Social Security it was a law and a mandate there were no choices. So for 45 years of work life that money was collected. For the babyboomers that didnt make much and didnt have private pensions that was a godsend in the end. Its all they have to eat on.

This younger generation you speak of isnt all going to be rich the makeup of rich and poor is going to be the same. So if you take Social Security and Medicare it wont matter in the end. You will pay either way.
If you come up with a better system thats great but pay you will just like I paid.
The alternative is Solient Green.

[The Xl]

and to me you look like you're stamping your feet. seriously.

I could care less how I look to the likes of you.

If you ever want to take me up on my offer, let me know. I'll be waiting.

[Cthulhu]

and to me you look like you're stamping your feet. seriously.

Delusions of self superiority and victory work only on the creator, not the audience.

[KC]

At best, it would be a wash, because older people gave us the likes of George Bush and nominated Mitt Romney, who was a less charismatic version of Obama.

True, it's not like there was much of a choice between the two, but I don't blame old folks for that. It's the system functioning for those whom it is meant to function for, the wealthy elite.

[jillian]

I could care less how I look to the likes of you.

If you ever want to take me up on my offer, let me know. I'll be waiting.


the "likes of me"? lmao.

now you know why i don't take you seriously.

[Peter1469]

I'll let you know when I get there.

My dad's in his late 70's nowadays, I asked him "dad - they say your mind is the first thing to go, but what's the second?"

He told me "you don't want to know".

My grandpa told me that once you can't get a hard-on anymore, there is no reason to live. He got his wish, he kicked the bucket not long after that.

[Cthulhu]

Bah every generation said the same thing, you have no exclusive on that. The greatest generation were recieved the biggest rewards from social security, most never paid a dime into it and collected it their entire lives and that includes Medicare
The then younger generation the babyboomers have paid for SS and medicare from day one. Lets understand the circumstances.
My generation was forced into Social Security it was a law and a mandate there were no choices. So for 45 years of work life that money was collected. For the babyboomers that didnt make much and didnt have private pensions that was a godsend in the end. Its all they have to eat on.


Because they were stupid.



This younger generation you speak of isnt all going to be rich the makeup of rich and poor is going to be the same. So if you take Social Security and Medicare it wont matter in the end. You will pay either way.
If you come up with a better system thats great but pay you will just like I paid.
The alternative is Solient Green.

No, most of the young who will fix the country will certainly not be affluent at all. Better systems are proposed all the time, and refused by the parties that benefit from the status quo. It won't happen peacefully, even though we all wish it would.

It won't though. You see, the enemy has dug a pit for us, but will fall into it himself, or get pushed into it. All of this social engineering has a blowback effect, but the elitist hubris will not believe the potential for backlash.

The message of the media to be disobedient, that violence is okay, with broken homes now being the norm, and with personal responsibility being cast into the wind - all of this will bite back. The amount of variables to control and influence becomes to great to manage, so the charade will collapse on itself.

But every generation is given its saviors, leaders, and warriors. To rise up in time of need. This is a cycle that has been repeated though out history without respect to any nation. The United States, although powerful, is not immune to this cycle.

The price to be paid will be costly, to both innocent and guilty. But that is what you get when the people allow themselves to be driven to and fro, like a beast of burden. They choose to be acted upon, rather than act for themselves. For now at least.

[Common]

True, it's not like there was much of a choice between the two, but I don't blame old folks for that. It's the system functioning for those whom it is meant to function for, the wealthy elite.

Cmon KC youre making an assumption that they are all wealth elite in the older generation that is the furthest thing from the truth.

[jillian]

My grandpa told me that once you can't get a hard-on anymore, there is no reason to live. He got his wish, he kicked the bucket not long after that.

hence the never-ending spate of cialis commericals on TV.

what's with the bathtubs, anyway?

[KC]

Cmon KC youre making an assumption that they are all wealth elite in the older generation that is the furthest thing from the truth.

No, you misread my post. I don't blame older generations at all. I'm arguing that the lack of any real choice is due to the system functioning for those it is supposed to function for, the wealthy elite.

[Common]

Because they were stupid.



No, most of the young who will fix the country will certainly not be affluent at all. Better systems are proposed all the time, and refused by the parties that benefit from the status quo. It won't happen peacefully, even though we all wish it would.

It won't though. You see, the enemy has dug a pit for us, but will fall into it himself, or get pushed into it. All of this social engineering has a blowback effect, but the elitist hubris will not believe the potential for backlash.

The message of the media to be disobedient, that violence is okay, with broken homes now being the norm, and with personal responsibility being cast into the wind - all of this will bite back. The amount of variables to control and influence becomes to great to manage, so the charade will collapse on itself.

But every generation is given its saviors, leaders, and warriors. To rise up in time of need. This is a cycle that has been repeated though out history without respect to any nation. The United States, although powerful, is not immune to this cycle.

The price to be paid will be costly, to both innocent and guilty. But that is what you get when the people allow themselves to be driven to and fro, like a beast of burden. They choose to be acted upon, rather than act for themselves. For now at least.


No, most of the young who will fix the country will certainly not be affluent at all. Better systems are proposed all the time, and refused by the parties that benefit from the status quo. It won't happen peacefully, even though we all wish it would.

That statement says it all and your right they wont be affluent but you blame the wrong people for that.

Your rant omits so many facts and truths. I understand you believe what you say and thats fine.

Answer me this what is the young vote who are going to make this change going to do about the Rich and Corporations who outsourced your ability to be self sufficient and while you felt this pain have grown fabulously richer and were talking 2% of america. What are they doing to do with all the ones that are left poor and have nothing.

You make it all sound so easy, snap your fingers here comes change. It takes decades and you forget one thing young man. The rich and powerful arent going to bend over for you and they own everything.
Said truth is C is that its going to take until your generation are old men and women to make it change.

[The Xl]

the "likes of me"? lmao.

now you know why i don't take you seriously.

And I don't take you seriously either, so the feeling is mutual.

Unlike you, however, I'm ready and able to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and debate you. You're not, and it's evident, you won't even address it. I don't blame you though.

[The Xl]

True, it's not like there was much of a choice between the two, but I don't blame old folks for that. It's the system functioning for those whom it is meant to function for, the wealthy elite.

I agree. Although, I have to blame older folks somewhat, when you keep getting spoon-fed shit, do you sit there and take it, or do you attempt to change it?

The system is broken, and no one has made a serious attempt to fix it.

[KC]

I agree. Although, I have to blame older folks somewhat, when you keep getting spoon-fed shit, do you sit there and take it, or do you attempt to change it?

The system is broken, and no one has made a serious attempt to fix it.

Why would anyone with any political power seriously try to fix the system though? Clearly the system is working for them. No one powerful enough to fix the system has any real incentive to fix it.

[Cigar]

I guess they can enjoy their victory as they are starving, cold, and sick because they let the government take over everything in their lives. And the government is only good at what it wants to be good at.

Case in point, we can't agree on a budget for the life of them, but the Utah Data Center, IRS, CIA, DHS etc... went on like nothing even happened.

If they really cared about us, we wouldn't have veterans backlogged in care and dying on wait lists for benefits they were promised.

If that is what you call winning, I don't want to know the definition of defeat you might have.

Who are YOU talking about? Who are "THEY"?

Are these Foreign people or are they Americans?

[The Xl]

Why would anyone with any political power seriously try to fix the system though? Clearly the system is working for them. No one powerful enough to fix the system has any real incentive to fix it.

I don't mean the power structure, I mean regular citizens. Ignorance and apathy has gotten us to this point.

[Cthulhu]

That statement says it all and your right they wont be affluent but you blame the wrong people for that.

Incorrect. The world we now live in was built by my parents and grandparents. They are directly to blame. Their tunnel vision and lack of vigilance gave me and my children this festering hole, which will only get worse. But blaming your ancestors accomplishes nothing. Action does though.



Your rant omits so many facts and truths. I understand you believe what you say and thats fine.

I haven't posted anything untrue, but indeed, I did omit some things, only because they are too numerous to list. Like I said earlier - too many variables.



Answer me this what is the young vote who are going to make this change going to do about the Rich and Corporations who outsourced your ability to be self sufficient and while you felt this pain have grown fabulously richer and were talking 2% of america. What are they doing to do with all the ones that are left poor and have nothing.

The young vote is irrelevant, the young will not bring about the needed change by voting. Savvy? Even poor people can find a reason to fight.



You make it all sound so easy, snap your fingers here comes change. It takes decades and you forget one thing young man. The rich and powerful arent going to bend over for you and they own everything.
Said truth is C is that its going to take until your generation are old men and women to make it change.

Nowhere did I say this would be easy, I did say it would be costly, to both the innocent and the guilty though. It will take time, but it will happen faster that the historical average due to advanced in technology and literacy.

[Green Arrow]

This is my whole thing.

First, I believe what I believe, and I don't care what anyone thinks of that. I know I came to my beliefs through years of hard studying more in-depth than even some college dissertations. On Dec. 2, I'm going to be teaching an economics professor (among others) about what socialism is, because after setting them on some sources they realized they didn't know, and I did. So I'm quite confident in what I believe, and when the only rebuttal people have for my beliefs is "wingnutter" and "anti-gubmint crazy," I know I've won.

Second, yes, I'm an anarchist. Yes, I'm young. You know who else was an anarchist?
Mikhail Bakunin (1814-1876)

http://www.wermodandwermod.com/newsitems/Mikhail%20Bakunin.jpg

Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Henry_David_Thoreau.jpg/230px-Henry_David_Thoreau.jpg

Pyotr Kropotkin (1842-1921)

http://cdn.sansimera.gr/media/photos/main/Pyotr_Kropotkin.jpg

Murray Rothbard (1926-1995)

http://www.nndb.com/people/313/000030223/MurrayRothbard-MED.jpg

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948)

http://cdn1.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/mahatma-gandhi.jpg

Benjamin Tucker (1854-1939)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/BenjaminTucker.jpg/220px-BenjaminTucker.jpg

Emma Goldman (1869-1940)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/6/1286369088064/emma.jpg

You know what else all these guys (and gal) had in common?

They were all old, they all had far more experiences to learn from than everybody on this forum, and they were all far more intelligent than anyone on this forum. Just one of those people was more intelligent than everyone on this forum combined, and they, too, were anarchists.

So, I'd say I'm in good company.

[KC]

I don't mean the power structure, I mean regular citizens. Ignorance and apathy has gotten us to this point.

Yes, it has, but most people are too concerned with paying their bills to pay much attention to the politics. And who can be blamed for that?

[Cthulhu]

Who are YOU talking about? Who are "THEY"?

Are these Foreign people or are they Americans?

Depends, does the country have a central bank?

[Peter1469]

I just shake my head and laugh. The civvies just don't get it. I could easily see a story like starship troopers coming forth "And the veterans took control..."

Because really, who do you think is going to tear down this house of cards if there was an insurrection? Who will check the mobs created due to supply chain inadequacy? It won't be the bleeding heart liberals who think guns are evil - they will be getting raided and likely killed in the fray.

Only veterans can become citizens....

[The Xl]

Yes, it has, but most people are too concerned with paying their bills to pay much attention to the politics. And who can be blamed for that?

Right, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck and whatnot. However, they struggle because they don't pay attention to what's actually going on, and vote in destructive idiots.

They need to make time to find the truth or we're all totally fucked in the long run.

[Peter1469]

hence the never-ending spate of cialis commericals on TV.

what's with the bathtubs, anyway?

That is a hint to the men to romance your woman first......

[KC]

Right, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck and whatnot. However, they struggle because they don't pay attention to what's actually going on, and vote in destructive idiots.

They need to make time to find the truth or we're all totally fucked in the long run.

The question is whether or not voting in the right people can solve our problems. I don't think it can.

[jillian]

And I don't take you seriously either, so the feeling is mutual.

the difference is, i don't care. and i have enough going on in the real world where i don't need you to.

grow up.

[jillian]

The question is whether or not voting in the right people can solve our problems. I don't think it can.

i think that's kind of fatalistic.

and voting for the wrong people certain *can* make things worse....

[The Xl]

the difference is, i don't care. and i have enough going on in the real world where i don't need you to.

grow up.

You clearly care, otherwise you wouldn't have even bothered to say it.

And keep dodging, homeboy.

[Green Arrow]

the difference is, i don't care. and i have enough going on in the real world where i don't need you to.

grow up.

Just my thought, but going back and forth with a 25 year old over who is smarter doesn't leave you much ground to tell him to "grow up."

[countryboy]

and voting for the wrong people certain *can* make things worse....
You got that right, we're living it. Obama is a bonafide disaster for this country.

[The Xl]

Just my thought, but going back and forth with a 25 year old over who is smarter doesn't leave you much ground to tell him to "grow up."

Not only that, I've challenged her to a debate, and she clearly wants nothing to do with it.

[KC]

i think that's kind of fatalistic.

and voting for the wrong people certain *can* make things worse....

Fate has nothing to do with it. The system is so tightly controlled by plutocrats that there is no possibility of voting the right person in who can fix the system. It's a Catch 22.

[The Xl]

i think that's kind of fatalistic.

and voting for the wrong people certain *can* make things worse....

Not that you'd know, or anything.

[The Xl]

Fate has nothing to do with it. The system is so tightly controlled by plutocrats that there is no possibility of voting the right person in who can fix the system. It's a Catch 22.

It's an uphill battle, for sure.

[countryboy]

Not only that, I've challenged her to a debate, and she clearly wants nothing to do with it.
Get a couple of jabs in and bail. That's about it grasshopper.

[Codename Section]

Who are YOU talking about? Who are "THEY"?

Are these Foreign people or are they Americans?

They would be our enemies, honestly. These people in Washington can find billions to spy on us no problem, keep things going on indefinitely when it comes to violence, but when we need health care we get regulations on insurance companies plus a mandate that we buy it.

Wow. Thanks.

[jillian]

Get a couple of jabs in and bail. That's about it grasshopper.


what's to respond to? his opinion or temper tantrum?

but keep on trolling, baby. it's all good.

[Codename Section]

So back to disaffected millenials...

[Agravan]

what's to respond to? his opinion or temper tantrum?

but keep on trolling, baby. it's all good.
That's pretty much all you got, jilly

[Green Arrow]

That's pretty much all you got, jilly

Please, Agravan, let it go. I don't want to see yet another thread devolve into bickering.

[Green Arrow]

So back to disaffected millenials...

*raises hand* I posted about why I'm a disaffected millennial.

[nic34]

The 18-29 year old block is, on average, far smarter politically than the 50+ year old block. The 30-39 block is pretty smart as well.

Come at me old bros.

Definately. But you all suck at geography....:wink:

[Codename Section]

Guys, there's this thing called a thread and it's about Democrats losing the youth vote and that our government in general has 85% of the people distrusting it.

As for all this other shit, I'm not going back to read who started it just stop. Thanks.

[Common]

Incorrect. The world we now live in was built by my parents and grandparents. They are directly to blame. Their tunnel vision and lack of vigilance gave me and my children this festering hole, which will only get worse. But blaming your ancestors accomplishes nothing. Action does though.



I haven't posted anything untrue, but indeed, I did omit some things, only because they are too numerous to list. Like I said earlier - too many variables.



The young vote is irrelevant, the young will not bring about the needed change by voting. Savvy? Even poor people can find a reason to fight.



Nowhere did I say this would be easy, I did say it would be costly, to both the innocent and the guilty though. It will take time, but it will happen faster that the historical average due to advanced in technology and literacy.

C , I call you C for short not insult intended. You have a deep hatred that no amount of discussing will fix.
You believe what your saying and thats not going to be changed either. For us to go back and forth is going to serve no good purpose. We cant change our opinions even with facts, So I respectfully bow out of this conversation saying lastly, I wish you all the best in your life and I hope you become happy and successful.

[Common]

They would be our enemies, honestly. These people in Washington can find billions to spy on us no problem, keep things going on indefinitely when it comes to violence, but when we need health care we get regulations on insurance companies plus a mandate that we buy it.

Wow. Thanks.


Your post said alot more than you think it has to me. I cant argue with it one slight bit.
Its actually the truth.

What your post doesnt address is the why its like this. C seems to blame his parents and his grand parents for the situation in the country.

I blame those who control it all and its not his parents its the 2% big money that controls it all.

What all you young folks dont realize YET, is that your generation when they come to power will succomb just as fast to the greed and power. No generation like mine protested and railed against the establishment more and in the end when they got elected they did the same thing. There is NO indication your generations politicians and leaders will do anything different.

[nic34]

10 reasons millennials are screwed

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/13/10_reasons_millennials_are_screwed_partner/


It isn’t hard to see why George W. Bush left office in January 2009 with an approval rating of only 22 percent: he was easily the worst president boomers and Gen-X experienced in their lifetimes. Between a record federal deficit, the war in Iraq, the torture of political detainees, the eroding of constitutional liberties and the financial meltdown of 2008, the Bush years were devastating for the United States. And many Millennials, unlike boomers and Gen-X, had the misfortune of reaching adulthood either during the Bush presidency or after Bush had left behind a long list of problems for the Obama administration to deal with. Certainly, many boomers and Gen-Xers have suffered enormously because of the Bush years, but at least they had the advantage of being in the workforce before the Bush administration did so much to destroy the country.


Keep in mind many like my son have no love for conservatives of any stripe.... they are as he would say, responsible for the wealthy getting all the breaks, and as long as I live in a red state, I'll always vote against them.

[nic34]

Your post said alot more than you think it has to me. I cant argue with it one slight bit.
Its actually the truth.

What your post doesnt address is the why its like this. C seems to blame his parents and his grand parents for the situation in the country.

I blame those who control it all and its not his parents its the 2% big money that controls it all.

What all you young folks dont realize YET, is that your generation when they come to power will succomb just as fast to the greed and power. No generation like mine protested and railed against the establishment more and in the end when they got elected they did the same thing. There is NO indication your generations politicians and leaders will do anything different.

What Cthulhu isn't taking in consideration is that hindsight is always 20-20.

[Codename Section]

What Cthulhu isn't taking in consideration is that hindsight is always 20-20.

We have history to learn from and they don't. They are all lock, stock, and owned. If they are two party, they are funded by corporations. Different corporations, but corporations. Do I give a shit if its a pharmaceutical company funding someone or a defense contractor? Not if the result is to screw me over and make my voice count less.

[Peter1469]

The older generations allowed the government to grow and create new entitlements, and any sane person should have known was unsustainable.

[nic34]

The older generations allowed the government to grow and create new entitlements, and any sane person should have known was unsustainable.

Many of those FDR programs went away, but the the investments we made in our soldiers, and for the health and prosperity of not only seniors, but all citizens strengthened the country, and should have been honored by all administrations.

.... and you certainly don't cut tax rates when you go to war and put it on the credit card ....

[Peter1469]

Many of those FDR programs went away, but the the investments we made in our soldiers, and for the health and prosperity of not only seniors, but all citizens strengthened the country, and should have been honored by all administrations.

.... and you certainly don't cut tax rates when you go to war and put it on the credit card ....

It depends. Often tax cuts lead too increased tax revenue. I guess the question is whether we should focus on the tax rate or the tax revenue rate?

[Cthulhu]

*raises hand* I posted about why I'm a disaffected millennial.

Strangely enough, I didn't truly become disaffected until I became a father, and then I realized how unfair this is to my kids.

Then I got pissed.

[Cthulhu]

C , I call you C for short not insult intended. You have a deep hatred that no amount of discussing will fix.
You believe what your saying and thats not going to be changed either. For us to go back and forth is going to serve no good purpose. We cant change our opinions even with facts, So I respectfully bow out of this conversation saying lastly, I wish you all the best in your life and I hope you become happy and successful.

That is the most polite backhand I've ever received from a retreating party I wasn't locking horns with.

Thanks?

I'm not a hate monger or anything, but I am realistic. I'd cordially invite you back, we can even bring facts to the table if you like.

I'm a ray of sunshine man, here to brighten up everyone's day.

[Cthulhu]

What your post doesnt address is the why its like this. C seems to blame his parents and his grand parents for the situation in the country.

I blame those who control it all and its not his parents its the 2% big money that controls it all.

I think I see what your thinking now. I don't have angst against my parents, nor my grandparents - they voted contrary to this weirdness we now currently enjoy. I should have said their generations are responsible for this mess.

Indeed the wealthy elitists are responsible as well, but the guardians of our civilization at the time allowed them to usurp power during the times of prosperity. They did not keep a vigilant watch for the tyrannical encroachments made by the government. They played the two party slot machine and won, at the expense of my generation and those afterwards.



What all you young folks dont realize YET, is that your generation when they come to power will succomb just as fast to the greed and power. No generation like mine protested and railed against the establishment more and in the end when they got elected they did the same thing. There is NO indication your generations politicians and leaders will do anything different.

I really think the younger generations will vote until it is no longer practical, and then they will vote with their money, their time, and quite possibly their ammunition. Although I don't think it will be necessarily my generation that does the heavy fighting, I think it will be my kids generation. It is my generation's job to preserve what knowledge we can, and teach the succeeding generation afterward what to not do, as well as train them in other ways they will need to preserve their freedoms.

[Cthulhu]

Many of those FDR programs went away, but the the investments we made in our soldiers, and for the health and prosperity of not only seniors, but all citizens strengthened the country, and should have been honored by all administrations.

.... and you certainly don't cut tax rates when you go to war and put it on the credit card ....

Indeed some of the programs went away. But the true monster survived the death of the programs - the concept that the government can fix anything with money and debt.

That train of thought has systematically ruined this country. Government is not the solution, usually it is the problem.

[Codename Section]

Indeed some of the programs went away. But the true monster survived the death of the programs - the concept that the government can fix anything with money and debt.

That train of thought has systematically ruined this country. Government is not the solution, usually it is the problem.

It's the reverse Midas touch and at best--at best--we can say it was maybe well-intentioned.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Like my Father always say; if you're lucky ... you'll get Old, if you learn anything along the way, you'll be happy.

I learned that I never should have listened to anything my Father told me about the way the world is.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Since the voters are theoretically sovereign and the actual sovereign has to be 35 years old and native born, why shouldn't those be the requirements for voting?

[Peter1469]

Since the voters are theoretically sovereign and the actual sovereign has to be 35 years old and native born, why shouldn't those be the requirements for voting?

Under our constitution the citizens are not "sovereign."

[The Sage of Main Street]

Why would anyone with any political power seriously try to fix the system though? Clearly the system is working for them. No one powerful enough to fix the system has any real incentive to fix it.

And the Libretardians want to take that power away from the 99%. In ancient Rome, the murder of the Gracchi brothers by the 1% around 120 BC led to the exclusive rule of the aristocracy, which immediately began fighting among themselves. That led to temporary dictatorships by the few great men left, then to civil wars and a permanent dictatorship by the only able ruler left standing. The emperors then became decadent themselves, but the greatness set up by the original democracy enabled the Empire to stay alive until 476 BC. We must stop our own patrician rule from repeating this process, or the Millennials will have no future worth living in.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Who are YOU talking about? Who are "THEY"?

Are these Foreign people or are they Americans?

He means the GUBMINT. What he really wants us to squeeze out is the government actually representing the 99%. What he wants to pile on top of us is the crushing weight of the private ruling class of thieves and traitors. These snakes are using the GUBMINT as a scapecoat, just like their Masters for centuries told them to use the JEWS.

[Codename Section]

He means the GUBMINT. What he really wants us to squeeze out is the government actually representing the 99%. What he wants to pile on top of us is the crushing weight of the private ruling class of thieves and traitors. These snakes are using the GUBMINT as a scapecoat, just like their Masters for centuries told them to use the JEWS.

This is just the worst explanation for his or my position I've ever read. The "GUBMINT" is in bed with the alleged Masters. Ever take a peek at the membership of the CFR, Bilderbergs, or Trilateral commission?

Dude...seriously. It was the "GUBMINT" that send your ass to Vietnam for the contractors and mine to Afghanistan. Thanks but I'd rather have no GUBMINT and go nowhere but my backyard to grow a garden.

[Green Arrow]

Strangely enough, I didn't truly become disaffected until I became a father, and then I realized how unfair this is to my kids.

Then I got pissed.

For me, it was working for McCain's campaign and defending him as a stone cold conservative, only to watch him get whiplash kowtowing to Obama's agenda after the elections were over and Obama became President.

[nic34]

He means the GUBMINT. What he really wants us to squeeze out is the government actually representing the 99%. What he wants to pile on top of us is the crushing weight of the private ruling class of thieves and traitors. These snakes are using the GUBMINT as a scapecoat, just like their Masters for centuries told them to use the JEWS.

Then the question that always comes next is what came first, the GUBMINT or the SNAKES?

To me its simple, stop allowing the snakes to take control of the GUBMINT. That was supposed to be reserved for the people....by the people.....

.............................. Oh, I forgot, corporations are now people :kiss:......and $$MOOLAH$$ is speech ..................

[Paperback Writer]

He means the GUBMINT. What he really wants us to squeeze out is the government actually representing the 99%. What he wants to pile on top of us is the crushing weight of the private ruling class of thieves and traitors. These snakes are using the GUBMINT as a scapecoat, just like their Masters for centuries told them to use the JEWS.

These "snakes" are using government as a power tool, not a scapegoat.

As for the Jews, convert and then become that billionaire you spoke about so lovingly on that other thread; Sir Dennis or whatever his name is. You needn't stay "Irish", you know, just change your name to Sachs and you've got it made. No one will ever know.

PS: It's never been "the Jews". It's the Jesuits. They also have a secret order of assassins.

[Blackrook]

Don't forget ... those 47% Takers, Blacks, Browns, Women, Gays, Children, Elderly and Veterans.

Wow ... that leaves Potbelly Old White Farts in white socks, flip-flops and Guns.

You're right ... it sure is a scarey future ... for them.
This is the politics of division and pitting people against each other. It's evil and you should stop it.

[Dr. Who]

I agree. Although, I have to blame older folks somewhat, when you keep getting spoon-fed shit, do you sit there and take it, or do you attempt to change it?

The system is broken, and no one has made a serious attempt to fix it.
The people who effect change always tend to be the young. In my day, the civil rights era, the hippie generation, the make love not war generation. Those from my generation pushed for civil liberties, getting rid of the old boy's network, equal pay for work of equal value, the end of institutionalized discrimination, the end of the Vietnam war, environmental awareness. Now it is your turn to root out the evil and expose it. I think that it only happens every 30 years or so. The in between generations are complacent, or unaware. So it is up to your generation to try changing what you can change. Whether you are libertarian or socialist, it is clear that the world is separating into the filthy rich and the poor and very poor. The middle class is disappearing, so you don't have a lot of time to effect change. The powers that be (and I'm not really talking about the government, but their masters) feel that they are omnipotent, that they own you and can mold this planet into a perfect Garden of Eden for themselves alone. All it requires for them is to get rid of a few billion pesky unimportant people. What better way than to starve them out of existence? So far their plan is working. Take away the work, throw in unnecessary wars, economic instability, political instability and you have a perfect setting for the rise of warlords, hunger, disease, and social unrest so that ultimately the poor will either kill each other off or die from 18th century causes. It's only beginning to touch America.

[zelmo1234]

I'll take what I'm doing over the holidays over a 18-29 year old is doing. :laugh:

And I plan on dong a 29 year old this holiday. even though it will be the 6th anniversary of her 29th birthday!

I am not brave enough to tell her she is not 29

[zelmo1234]

Well, conservative youth lean libertarian, and liberal youth can at least see that their guy was a failure, by their own ideals. Older folk are stubborn as all hell and keep voting for generic clowns that do the same stuff.

I'm curious to see how the youth vote in the 2016 election.

The sad part is they may just go back to not voting? I hope not as they are the future and only hope for this country

[zelmo1234]

The under 30 crowd are the future just like all other generations. Each generation brought to politics their own thinking. This time will be no different.

The entire demographics of politics is changing and still there is no viable 3rd party and there wont be any time soon.
Since I was a young guy people have had the same complaints about the two party system and have said the same thing about third parties. Here we are near 50 yrs later. My father said the same thing.

Until the rich with the big money that control the two parties have their hold broken its not going to change.

The "RICH" own, run and manipulate everything that happens in this country.

Then I guess the only hope is to put forth the effort to become rich and then you can have the influence too?

[zelmo1234]

I just shake my head and laugh. The civvies just don't get it. I could easily see a story like starship troopers coming forth "And the veterans took control..."

Because really, who do you think is going to tear down this house of cards if there was an insurrection? Who will check the mobs created due to supply chain inadequacy? It won't be the bleeding heart liberals who think guns are evil - they will be getting raided and likely killed in the fray.

STOP TEASEING!!!! :) OH! Sorry, my bad!

[zelmo1234]

Unfortunately. The lesser of all evils is still evil. Still, they know that Obama wasn't a real liberal, they at least have the awareness to recognize that. Unlike a lot of older people who still have wet dreams over Reagan, who wasn't even really a small government conservative.

For those that did not live through the disaster of Nixon, and Carter, Reagan is a mystery, But for those of use that can remember, Nixon destroyed our faith in our leaders, though Ford in later years was credited to at least trying to heal the country, and Carter destroyed the reputation and respect of the country with nations around the world.

While Reagan has some very conservative policies and Ideas, to say he was a small government conservative is stretching the truth. though more conservative than his policies would show, due to the Democratic Congress and Senate, but there can still be no denying that he grew government!

But he restored the economy and prosperity to the USA and through a strong hand and a great friendship with Thatcher, restored the influence of the USA around the world, and restored the people faith in the country.

So if you consider what lead up to the Reagan years it is easy to see the love for this President

JFK assonated,

LBJ Vietnam and the Race riots.

Nixon Watergate

Ford the pardon of Nixon

Carter, the gutting of the military, created an economy worse than the one Obama took over, and the hostage situation!

To bring the country out of these dark ages into economic prosperity and then win the cold war? That is going to create affection!

Now this being said, the next president, is going to follow

2nd term of Clinton with the scandal's

GWB and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, 911

Obama, (carters revenge) with the destruction of the economy, continuation of the wars, and obamacare, making the USA the laughing stock of the world

If the next President can turn it around? He or She will enjoy the same God like references as Reagan!

[zelmo1234]

I'd gladly debate you on any issue, how about how Democrats and Republicans are effectively the same on every major issue? I'd take you to school, sweetheart.

Flailing? Ha. Just refuting your nonsensical line of thinking.

Yes you see but you would use FACTS, and they have no effect on liberal like her!

She will never see the forest through the trees!

[zelmo1234]

Because they were stupid.



No, most of the young who will fix the country will certainly not be affluent at all. Better systems are proposed all the time, and refused by the parties that benefit from the status quo. It won't happen peacefully, even though we all wish it would.

It won't though. You see, the enemy has dug a pit for us, but will fall into it himself, or get pushed into it. All of this social engineering has a blowback effect, but the elitist hubris will not believe the potential for backlash.

The message of the media to be disobedient, that violence is okay, with broken homes now being the norm, and with personal responsibility being cast into the wind - all of this will bite back. The amount of variables to control and influence becomes to great to manage, so the charade will collapse on itself.

But every generation is given its saviors, leaders, and warriors. To rise up in time of need. This is a cycle that has been repeated though out history without respect to any nation. The United States, although powerful, is not immune to this cycle.

The price to be paid will be costly, to both innocent and guilty. But that is what you get when the people allow themselves to be driven to and fro, like a beast of burden. They choose to be acted upon, rather than act for themselves. For now at least.

Great Post, and some of us old folks see this same writing on the wall!

WE too hope and pray for the peaceful change! And it is possible, like I said, I can remember the Carter years though I was young, and some, if not most of the same feelings were in the air!

The right leader, could turn things around, but that leader does not seem to be on the horizon, but neither was Reagan, he was to be defeated by Carter and that is what the polls were showing up until a week or 2 before the election!

So there are some that we can look to with hope for a peaceful change, but I suspect that it happening twice in ones lifetime is too much to ask for !

[zelmo1234]

This is my whole thing.

First, I believe what I believe, and I don't care what anyone thinks of that. I know I came to my beliefs through years of hard studying more in-depth than even some college dissertations. On Dec. 2, I'm going to be teaching an economics professor (among others) about what socialism is, because after setting them on some sources they realized they didn't know, and I did. So I'm quite confident in what I believe, and when the only rebuttal people have for my beliefs is "wingnutter" and "anti-gubmint crazy," I know I've won.

Second, yes, I'm an anarchist. Yes, I'm young. You know who else was an anarchist?
Mikhail Bakunin (1814-1876)

http://www.wermodandwermod.com/newsitems/Mikhail Bakunin.jpg

Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Henry_David_Thoreau.jpg/230px-Henry_David_Thoreau.jpg

Pyotr Kropotkin (1842-1921)

http://cdn.sansimera.gr/media/photos/main/Pyotr_Kropotkin.jpg

Murray Rothbard (1926-1995)

http://www.nndb.com/people/313/000030223/MurrayRothbard-MED.jpg

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948)

http://cdn1.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/images/mahatma-gandhi.jpg

Benjamin Tucker (1854-1939)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/BenjaminTucker.jpg/220px-BenjaminTucker.jpg

Emma Goldman (1869-1940)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/6/1286369088064/emma.jpg

You know what else all these guys (and gal) had in common?

They were all old, they all had far more experiences to learn from than everybody on this forum, and they were all far more intelligent than anyone on this forum. Just one of those people was more intelligent than everyone on this forum combined, and they, too, were anarchists.

So, I'd say I'm in good company.

I like the anarchists, because if they get there way, the power will swing to people like me!

And make No mistake the will be serving me.

What Anarchists Don't take into account is the Wolves in the system! And especially the old ones that have been in the manipulation game, and can not only still hold their own, (which earns the respect) but know how to paint the right picture to get the young warriors to follow!

There is one here that might know a little about the manipulation skills and what they are able to produce!

And that is the problem that the founding fathers tried to address with the limit government, of , by and for the people. The problem is it is now of, by and for the Government and the power of the ruling class!

So replacing the current for with socialism usually does not work because of greed, and to get rid of the greed you have to purge the productive, and that leads to the failure of the socialist economies!

The answer lies, in my opinion to the return to the original constitution, and the limited power that it granted the federal governments. Returning the right to the states to take control of their individual paths, and yet still being strong enough to keep the wolves at bay!

[zelmo1234]

The question is whether or not voting in the right people can solve our problems. I don't think it can.

unfortunately the alternative is very un attractive!

[zelmo1234]

i think that's kind of fatalistic.

and voting for the wrong people certain *can* make things worse....

Current events are sure proving your last statement true!

[zelmo1234]

what's to respond to? his opinion or temper tantrum?

but keep on trolling, baby. it's all good.

Well take him up on the debate then? You know get your Facts together, and challenge his ideas?

Instead of calling him names?

I know that he is not going to take your word for it, so you will have to back up your position?

So I would say you need to step up to the challenge or admit defeat!

[zelmo1234]

Please, Agravan, let it go. I don't want to see yet another thread devolve into bickering.

Then you need to use your position and get ride of the problem! Don't you!

[fyrenza]

tl/dnr
(hey! i spent 30 days in the hole, after all)

Awww...

Yet another FAILed Big Fat Idea?

Imagine that ...

[fyrenza]

i'm channeling Nate, a man that i've known for a good while, and whom i will sorely miss.
if he doesn't come back, y'all have lost an intelligent, knowledgeable, well-read, humorous and kind friend

[Mainecoons]

That's fine but the Internet isn't a place for sissies and you need to have a thick skin on boards like this. I quite liked Nate as well and hope he will reconsider.

[Codename Section]

I like the anarchists, because if they get there way, the power will swing to people like me!

And make No mistake the will be serving me.

What Anarchists Don't take into account is the Wolves in the system! And especially the old ones that have been in the manipulation game, and can not only still hold their own, (which earns the respect) but know how to paint the right picture to get the young warriors to follow!

There is one here that might know a little about the manipulation skills and what they are able to produce!

And that is the problem that the founding fathers tried to address with the limit government, of , by and for the people. The problem is it is now of, by and for the Government and the power of the ruling class!

So replacing the current for with socialism usually does not work because of greed, and to get rid of the greed you have to purge the productive, and that leads to the failure of the socialist economies!

The answer lies, in my opinion to the return to the original constitution, and the limited power that it granted the federal governments. Returning the right to the states to take control of their individual paths, and yet still being strong enough to keep the wolves at bay!


What do you think anarchism is? Do you think there is no "governance"?

[countryboy]

What do you think anarchism is? Do you think there is no "governance"?
It's what the label would seem to imply, by definition.

Full Definition of ANARCHY

1
a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utopian[1]) society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2
a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disorder) <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>

[Codename Section]

It's what the label would seem to imply, by definition.

Full Definition of ANARCHY

1
a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/utopian[1]) society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2
a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order : disorder (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disorder) <not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature — Israel Shenker>


There will be "governance" because humans are social. They will gather together and agree on things. You can't prevent that. The truth is that you live in a state of anarchy now because you're not really constrained by law. Laws don't prevent you from doing shit. They just punish you IF you get caught AFTER you've done it. Government is kind of an illusion in some ways.

An illusion that takes your money and funnels it.

[countryboy]

There will be "governance" because humans are social. They will gather together and agree on things. You can't prevent that. The truth is that you live in a state of anarchy now because you're not really constrained by law. Laws don't prevent you from doing shit. They just punish you IF you get caught AFTER you've done it. Government is kind of an illusion in some ways.

An illusion that takes your money and funnels it.
You're right, the strong will gather together and prey on the weak. History doesn't lie. Anarchism is nothing more than an age old Utopian dream.

[Mainecoons]

Like socialism. The only idea that has worked thus far is economic and personal freedom. At least until we abandoned them in pursuit of the age old failure of socialism and statism.

[Codename Section]

You're right, the strong will gather together and prey on the weak. History doesn't lie. Anarchism is nothing more than an age old Utopian dream.

I'm strong and I wouldn't. You're making generalizations about people that I don't think hold water. Most people are good people.

[countryboy]

I'm strong and I wouldn't. You're making generalizations about people that I don't think hold water. Most people are good people.
As I said, history doesn't lie. Vacuums are always filled, and not usually by nice people.

While it may still be true that "most people are good people", I think that tide may be turning.

And, believe it or not, there are people stronger than you. :wink:

[Codename Section]

As I said, history doesn't lie. Vacuums are always filled, and not usually by nice people.

While it may still be true that "most people are good people", I think that tide may be turning.

And, believe it or not, there are people stronger than you. :wink:

Yeh, history. There's never been an example of anarchism other than native peoples and they were no more or less barbaric than governments have been.

No one is stronger than me. :D And if they were they'd been so big they couldn't run fast. I run fast.

[countryboy]

Yeh, history. There's never been an example of anarchism other than native peoples and they were no more or less barbaric than governments have been.

No one is stronger than me. :D And if they were they'd been so big they couldn't run fast. I run fast.
You have apparently not studied Native American history. :wink:

I know you're being somewhat facetious, but trust me bro, you are not invincible. Nobody is.

[Green Arrow]

You're right, the strong will gather together and prey on the weak. History doesn't lie. Anarchism is nothing more than an age old Utopian dream.

You get an A for effort, at least. That some good skill, ignoring the bulk of what he said and just picking out what you wanted to hear.

[Paperback Writer]

You have apparently not studied Native American history. :wink:

He said "no more or less". Do you disagree countryboy? You feel the native peoples were more barbaric than Hitler or Stalin? Rubbish.

[countryboy]

You get an A for effort, at least. That some good skill, ignoring the bulk of what he said and just picking out what you wanted to hear.
If that's the way it sounded, I didn't mean for it to. I heard, and respect Code's opinion. I think he knows that. I just happen to disagree with it in part. :)

The same goes for you. I think if the shit ever hits the fan, we will all three be on the same side. At least I hope so.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Then the question that always comes next is what came first, the GUBMINT or the SNAKES?

To me its simple, stop allowing the snakes to take control of the GUBMINT. That was supposed to be reserved for the people....by the people.....

.............................. Oh, I forgot, corporations are now people :kiss:......and $$MOOLAH$$ is speech ..................

The snakes came first and only, the government never came at all. The Constitution was an anti-democratic manifesto written by lawyers for the 1%.

[The Sage of Main Street]

This is the politics of division and pitting people against each other. It's evil and you should stop it.

Yes, we should all fall in line as sheep goosestepping behind Chickenhawks.

[countryboy]

He said "no more or less". Do you disagree @countryboy (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=452)? You feel the native peoples were more barbaric than Hitler or Stalin? Rubbish.
You make a valid point. The Native Americans were more "hands on" barbaric. It was a small thing to dash an infant's brains out against a tree trunk. But still pretty barbaric, wouldn't you say?

[countryboy]

Don't get me wrong guys. The Anarchist's idyllic world is very appealing to me. I just don't believe human nature would allow it. Maybe I'm wrong. I HOPE I'm wrong.

[nic34]

The people who effect change always tend to be the young. In my day, the civil rights era, the hippie generation, the make love not war generation. Those from my generation pushed for civil liberties, getting rid of the old boy's network, equal pay for work of equal value, the end of institutionalized discrimination, the end of the Vietnam war, environmental awareness. Now it is your turn to root out the evil and expose it. I think that it only happens every 30 years or so. The in between generations are complacent, or unaware. So it is up to your generation to try changing what you can change. Whether you are libertarian or socialist, it is clear that the world is separating into the filthy rich and the poor and very poor. The middle class is disappearing, so you don't have a lot of time to effect change. The powers that be (and I'm not really talking about the government, but their masters) feel that they are omnipotent, that they own you and can mold this planet into a perfect Garden of Eden for themselves alone. All it requires for them is to get rid of a few billion pesky unimportant people. What better way than to starve them out of existence? So far their plan is working. Take away the work, throw in unnecessary wars, economic instability, political instability and you have a perfect setting for the rise of warlords, hunger, disease, and social unrest so that ultimately the poor will either kill each other off or die from 18th century causes. It's only beginning to touch America.

Well put fellow traveller... :wink:

[kilgram]

Well, I am not so sure if there is real change, but what I've seen in Spain, and I see that the same thing is happening in USA is how the main parties are starting to be ignored and people is looking for new parties and fresh ideas. However also there is a raise of the abstention, and it is bad and good for the traditional parties, at least, in Spain. I don't how the abstention affects in USA, because I don't know your elections law.

[nic34]

You make a valid point. The Native Americans were more "hands on" barbaric. It was a small thing to dash an infant's brains out against a tree trunk. But still pretty barbaric, wouldn't you say?

As opposed to burning witches at the stake, or throwing them into lakes to see if they floated...

[nic34]

Well, I am not so sure if there is real change, but what I've seen in Spain, and I see that the same thing is happening in USA is how the main parties are starting to be ignored and people is looking for new parties and fresh ideas. However also there is a raise of the abstention, and it is bad and good for the traditional parties, at least, in Spain. I don't how the abstention affects in USA, because I don't know your elections law.

Yeah, history has a tendency to repeat itself, but hardly anyone remembers that... :wink:

People take their right to vote for granted too often.

[Paperback Writer]

You make a valid point. The Native Americans were more "hands on" barbaric. It was a small thing to dash an infant's brains out against a tree trunk. But still pretty barbaric, wouldn't you say?

The ancient Greeks and Romans had paterfamilia and that was hands on barbarity, as was Pol Pot's killing tree where they bashed an infants brains out upon it.

[countryboy]

The ancient Greeks and Romans had paterfamilia and that was hands on barbarity, as was Pol Pot's killing tree where they bashed an infants brains out upon it.
So, do you think anarchism can work?

[Mainecoons]

Well, I am not so sure if there is real change, but what I've seen in Spain, and I see that the same thing is happening in USA is how the main parties are starting to be ignored and people is looking for new parties and fresh ideas. However also there is a raise of the abstention, and it is bad and good for the traditional parties, at least, in Spain. I don't how the abstention affects in USA, because I don't know your elections law.

The problem is that the two parties continue to nominate almost all of the candidates and the primary system is so broken that only the extreme partisans vote in it, hence the candidates have to pander to the extremes to get nominated.

[nic34]

So, do you think anarchism can work?

So you get rid of the government and replace it with "we the people".......... soon there will be a government that arises out the various negotiations between groups of people.

- Multicentric defense and communal institutions would be a form of government.

- Get rid of government and replace it with "corporations" such as in anarchocapitalism, then corporations are basically "the government".

screwed either way...

[Codename Section]

So you get rid of the government and replace it with "we the people".......... soon there will be a government that arises out the various negotiations between groups of people.

- Multicentric defense and communal institutions would be a form of government.

- Get rid of government and replace it with "corporations" such as in anarchocapitalism, then corporations are basically "the government".

screwed either way...

Replace it with corporations? What do you mean? A government is a type of corporation. We choose to replace it with cooperatives.

[nic34]

Replace it with corporations? What do you mean? A government is a type of corporation. We choose to replace it with cooperatives.

I know. I agree.

Example:
http://arcosanti.org/node/8626

I'm still wary.......... the planet has 7 billion souls....

[Chris]

Replace it with corporations? What do you mean? A government is a type of corporation. We choose to replace it with cooperatives.



Governments are coercive, corporations aren't.

[Peter1469]

Don't get me wrong guys. The Anarchist's idyllic world is very appealing to me. I just don't believe human nature would allow it. Maybe I'm wrong. I HOPE I'm wrong.

I think that it could happen on a small scale or if our politicians crash the economy and the USD, the US would break down into local communities, and some bad guys. But I think that as things begin to heal most people will go back to government.

[Peter1469]

Governments are coercive, corporations aren't.

They certainly can be. In the past the Windows operating system came with numerous Microsoft programs and if you tried to remove them it screwed every thing up. The government sued them over that.

[zelmo1234]

I'm strong and I wouldn't. You're making generalizations about people that I don't think hold water. Most people are good people.

Actually you would, if you will be honest with yourself.

Now it would not start out that way! You would seek to make sure people are safe and secure!

But as things deteriorated, you would start to oppress people, for their own safety of course! And then a Son, wife , daughter or close relative is going to be a victim of mindless violence and your rage and revenge will enslave the weak!

Look into your heart and training and tell me that you would not seek to protect and then tell me that could not get out of hand?

Then when you get someone with my skills that puts several of you together to provide the greater good? and the people will live in a nightmare provided by the people they chose to protect them.

Tell me that I am wrong!

[zelmo1234]

Yeh, history. There's never been an example of anarchism other than native peoples and they were no more or less barbaric than governments have been.

No one is stronger than me. :D And if they were they'd been so big they couldn't run fast. I run fast.

I am slighty over weight, though that will be gone soon!

I am old and with my knee and ankle I am not that fast, but I am stronger than you, maybe not physically, but I can defeat you! :)

[The Sage of Main Street]

Actually you would, if you will be honest with yourself.

Now it would not start out that way! You would seek to make sure people are safe and secure!

But as things deteriorated, you would start to oppress people, for their own safety of course! And then a Son, wife , daughter or close relative is going to be a victim of mindless violence and your rage and revenge will enslave the weak!

Look into your heart and training and tell me that you would not seek to protect and then tell me that could not get out of hand?

Then when you get someone with my skills that puts several of you together to provide the greater good? and the people will live in a nightmare provided by the people they chose to protect them.

Tell me that I am wrong!

You are wrong. You're not sincere at all, but are just trying to protect the status quo by making up scare stories to inhibit anyone from changing it.