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midcan5
12-09-2013, 08:30 AM
Republicans, conservatives, libertarians, democrats, and talking heads, say something about America and the American promise, listen carefully, but note what they do, not what they say, note what is, not what ain't, note why and for whom.


Whenever politicians or citizens mention democracy ask yourself how does democracy work.


Whenever a republican mentions freedom think of those ten hands raised to ideology.


Whenever a republican mentions American exceptionalism consider their presidential candidate hide money made in America off shore. And no one seemed to care.


Whenever a politician is against something ask yourself what they are for, ask them what they are for. Abstract nouns are not an answer.


Whenever anyone mentions taxes and the rich in the same breath, ask yourself if alone on an island or away from society, how they would create wealth. Is wealth a creation of government.


Whenever bromides such as welfare, laziness, entitlement, high taxes are mentioned with job creation, consider outsourcing and tax relief for outsourcing.


Whenever republicans mention Detroit look out your window and check where your car was engineered, manufactured, and built. Ask your representatives same question.


Whenever jobs are mentioned in America, check out a mirror and ask what you do to support American jobs. Where you shop, what you buy.


Whenever a republican says the same thing as another republican ask yourself again, where is freedom when the same words are repeated robot-like over and over again.


Whenever a libertarian politician talks about government being too big consider their desire to have government control women's reproductive rights and family contraceptive rights.


Whenever an American mentions American exceptionalism consider our healthcare ranks 37th in the world.


Whenever a republican mentions entitlements ask yourself why only the wealthy and corporations are entitled to the resources of America.


Whenever politicians claim there is too much regulation consider America's economic stability for fifty years after FDR.


Whenever a republican mentions American exceptionalism think again of tax credits for outsourcing American jobs.


Whenever a republican says the Affordable Care Act is complicated, ask yourself why healthcare is only complicated when it includes all Americans and not just the entitled.


Whenever an American mentions American exceptionalism consider American developed products now manufactured in Communist China only to be sold in America.


Whenever politicians say the federal government is too large look closely at why and what they do with local within government.


Whenever republicans (Cruz, Lee, or Paul) mention government as the problem consider where they work, who supports their many benefits and perks, and what they actually accomplish. Oh, and who pays for their healthcare.


Whenever republicans rant about terminated insurance policies, ask them where they were last year, the year before, and .... ask them too for their solution.


Whenever a conservative republican mentions their Christian values think of the sequester and how it has hurt children and the elderly while they changed the rules so they can travel more easily.


Whenever republicans point to Fannie and Freddie consider JP Morgan's five billion settlement for its wrongdoing concerning F&F.


Whenever republicans mentions American exceptionalism consider that inequality in America is now equivalent to third world nations.


Whenever republicans mention deficits think of two unfunded wars, one based on numerous deceptions, neither accomplished nor finished under their watch.


Whenever republicans mention unions ask yourself why Walmart workers qualify for food stamps.


Whenever republicans mention deficits note that the deficit they created has been cut in half under the Obama administration.


Whenever politicians talk budgets, consider that 57% of discretionary spending goes to the military expenditures, only 6% to veterans benefits.


Whenever republican mention deficit spending think of the 700 billion they gave to the incompetents on wall street, the too big to fail failures. Is that not welfare for the rich.


Whenever republicans conservatives libertarians mention welfare, food stamps, or entitlements consider the items above and others below.


Whenever republicans mention deficits ask them how they managed not to fund Medicare Part D or two wars. Ask them when they woke up to deficits.


Whenever republicans mention defense think of their failure in Afghanistan and their failure to capture Osama Bin Laden.


Whenever republicans mention the military consider how much their policies cut the benefits of those who have served.


Whenever republicans criticize President Obama on defense remember 97% of them voted for the preemptive invasion of Iraq.


Whenever corporations mention corporate tax and the cost of employee benefits consider their outsourcing and the state and government tax support they receive.


Whenever conservatives republicans libertarians mention democrats welfare consider what purpose their 'Leadership PACs' serve.


Whenever the democrats republicans libertarians democrats mention welfare consider their hiring of family members paid for by your campaign contributions.


Whenever democrats republicans libertarians mention food stamps think of the leadership PACs use of contributions for personal travel and expenses. Ask them how they define welfare.


Whenever democrats republicans libertarians mention law, regulation, and fairness consider how they legalized inside trading for themselves.


Whenever republicans such as Ted Cruz, Ric Perry mention their support for their state consider the poverty levels among children in their state. A 47% percent increase in ten years.


Whenever republicans mention Obamacare think of Congress-care and the enormous benefits they provide themselves.


Whenever republicans mention voter fraud consider why no one has proven that it even exists. But you surely know why. Remember the democracy question.


Whenever republicans criticize the ACA web site, remember this is technology and not Obamacare which will actually help millions of Americans. Help is that not what America is about.


Whenever republicans libertarians conservatives mention minimum wage consider how often they raise their salaries.


Whenever republicans libertarians conservatives mention minimum wage consider Boehner, Cantor and Ryan make over 200 dollars an hour. What exactly is it they do.


Whenever republicans mention jobs try hard to think of one thing they have done to help create jobs.


Whenever republicans mention jobs consider their tax support for outsourcing American jobs.


Whenever business mentions jobs check out their outsourcing of technical jobs to India.


Whenever large corporations mention jobs consider their outsourcing of American jobs and ask why they contribute so much to K Street.


Whenever Christians mention Christ think of pastors for prosperity and the large crystal cathedrals that appear to be self indulgent self centered idols for the haves.


Whenever politicians criticize public education ask yourself who they'd use to educate the American citizenry. Or the harder and more complicated question, why.


Whenever Christians and politicians mention God ask yourself what they do for poverty in America and the world.


Whenever conservatives claim MSM is liberal consider who owns MSM and consider too their concerted effort paid for by insurance companies to criticize the ACA.


Whenever republicans block qualified judicial appointments ask yourself why they want government to be a one sided operation. Is freedom only about their definition and purpose of law.


Whenever you see a Walmart ad consider their workers were asked to provide Thanksgiving dinner for their workers.


Whenever republicans say government has too much power ask them why they work in government


Continued below:

midcan5
12-09-2013, 08:30 AM
Whenever republicans mention their concern over unborn children ask yourself what it is they do for children living in poverty.


Whenever you read articles from 'Americans for Prosperity' or like named organizations ask yourself whose prosperity are they addressing and who is supporting them and why.


Whenever republicans mention their concern over unborn children consider who was hurt most by the sequester while they couldn't even wait in airport line.


Whenever politicians curtsy to the K street lobbyists ask yourself has the courtier in history really changed since the days of royalty.


Whenever republicans criticise Public education ask yourself why knowledge is only knowledge if it coincides with their ideology.


Whenever republicans talk deficits and taxes ask yourself why American prospered for fifty years under much higher taxes.


Whenever republicans mention deficits consider why oil companies get tax benefits as their profits are in the billions.


Whenever republicans mention deficits question whether they ever met a defense contractor they didn't like? Or where they go to work after doing nothing for all Americans in congress. Add in their nice pensions.


Whenever republicans mention the other side, whenever they whine and complain, consider for a second only their failures under George W. Bush.


Whenever a politician mentions taking from some for another, ask yourself does accumulated advantage amount to just another form of entitlement. Does America exist only for some.


Whenever you listen to Limbaugh, Coulter, Drudge, Hannity, Beck, Levin, Norquist, Bozell, Malkin, ET AL how is it they know anything at all, they do nothing but talk and talk is so easy. Ask also who funds them and why.


Whenever you listen to Limbaugh Drudge Hannity, Beck, Levin, Norquist, Bozell, Malkin, ask yourself how specifically they contribute to America. The nuns often said empty barrels make the most noise, still fits.


Whenever Rush Limbaugh talks patriotism or criticizes our President consider that he was just another draft dodger among many.


Whenever a think tank provides an analysis of any topic at all, consider carefully who it is that funds them and why.


Whenever you read something critical of government, particularly online, consider the source carefully and consider why the information is funded.


Whenever 'American Crossroads' mention the future and children ask yourself who the sequester has hurt most and what is it they really do for kids. Abstract nouns do not feed or cloth.


Whenever 'Americans for Prosperity Foundation's' defends the American Dream given the increases in poverty, job loss, and lack of excellent public education as well as the lack of healthcare, whose dream is it they are covering?


Whenever ALEC works to support legislation that supports corporations ask yourself why they are tax exempt, and ask why a corporation would even need them. Is business not about business.


Whenever a republican mentions freedom ask yourself how it is they all repeat the same tired bromides word for word. Check out their lack of ideas and realize that one day soon the same words will be revised and repeated.


Whenever a politician is against something ask yourself what they are for, ask them what they are for. If the answer is a abstract noun ask again.


Whenever anyone at all brings up an imaginary past or mentions the loss of America check out history or just ask the old timers.


I realize very few will read this interrogation as it doesn't fit their worldview, their view is absent freedom of though, it is a view reinforced by a well funded machine that controls their worldview, if you doubt that, ask again why they repeat the same things over and over again in the same words.


I'd also appreciate it if any error were pointed out so long as it is error and not ideology talking or partisan double-talk. And broad brush criticism is the sign of a lazy mind. No need to mention that I repeat myself, I know that, I am just an I.


A few sources of Information for the interested and informed reader:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/state-conservative-groups-assault-education-health-tax
http://nationalpriorities.org/en/analysis/2013/president-obamas-fiscal-year-2014-budget/
http://iasc-culture.org/THR/channels/THR/2013/11/brand-loyalty-after-virtue/
http://timharford.com/2013/11/a-universal-income-is-not-such-a-silly-idea/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/05/22/gop-congressman-stephen-fincher-on-a-mission-from-god-starve-the-poor-while-personally-pocketing-millions-in-farm-subsidies/
http://www.southerneducation.org/cmspages/getfile.aspx?guid=0bc70ce1-d375-4ff6-8340-f9b3452ee088
http://sojo.net/blogs/2013/09/19/just-picking-poor-facts-and-faces-cutting-snap
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126802/Christians-likely-left-wing-liberal-views-immigration-equality.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-madrick/republicans-poverty_b_1837962.html
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/how-to-waste-a-crisis/
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/01/right-sizing-defense-budget-cuts


[A work in Progress, check later for updates.]

Codename Section
12-09-2013, 09:19 AM
midcan5

I realize that you don't like Republicans. I think everyone does by now. I just don't see the purpose of this thread aside from flamebait. Can you explain it?

It's two posts of text walls that I stopped reading pretty quick in.

Just want to understand what this is supposed to get people to discuss.

Codename Section
12-09-2013, 09:23 AM
Again, just want to know what we're supposed to discuss and a helpful hint...people don't tend to read word walls unless it's about sex or food.

midcan5
12-09-2013, 12:22 PM
Long ago a moderator asked me to join their site, the idea did not appeal to me as opinions tend to be exactly what the DI claimed. But the person's argument was not about the obvious give and take, the usual ad hominem, the flames, or vulgar repartee, or broad brush dismissals, the point was that maybe, just maybe, someone would read what you wrote and wonder. It must be obvious to you, if you have given it any thought, that people do not think, they react. Most are robots, a simple perusal of a particular poster words and you know who they are. But occasionally something will hit you, and then maybe you will think a bit differently. Think of the white supremacist interviewed on NPR. So while most will simply ignore this, maybe, just maybe someone else still has the capacity to wonder. Thanks for asking.

PS Not just republicans are mentioned.

Codename Section
12-09-2013, 12:25 PM
Long ago a moderator asked me to join their site, the idea did not appeal to me as opinions tend to be exactly what the DI claimed. But the person's argument was not about the obvious give and take, the usual ad hominem, the flames, or vulgar repartee, or broad brush dismissals, the point was that maybe, just maybe, someone would read what you wrote and wonder. It must be obvious to you, if you have given it any thought, that people do not think, they react. Most are robots, a simple perusal of a particular poster words and you know who they are. But occasionally something will hit you, and then maybe you will think a bit differently. Think of the white supremacist interviewed on NPR. So while most will simply ignore this, maybe, just maybe someone else still has the capacity to wonder. Thanks for asking.

PS Not just republicans are mentioned.

Republicans are mostly mentioned and it's very critical, hence why I wanted a succinct answer in what you are trying to discuss here. Neither the thread title or the post itself gives me clues on what you want to debate.

It was a question to you because I'm a dumb jock: what is the subject (succinctly)?

The Sage of Main Street
12-09-2013, 01:06 PM
Long ago a moderator asked me to join their site, the idea did not appeal to me as opinions tend to be exactly what the DI claimed. But the person's argument was not about the obvious give and take, the usual ad hominem, the flames, or vulgar repartee, or broad brush dismissals, the point was that maybe, just maybe, someone would read what you wrote and wonder. It must be obvious to you, if you have given it any thought, that people do not think, they react. Most are robots, a simple perusal of a particular poster words and you know who they are. But occasionally something will hit you, and then maybe you will think a bit differently. Think of the white supremacist interviewed on NPR. So while most will simply ignore this, maybe, just maybe someone else still has the capacity to wonder. Thanks for asking.

PS Not just republicans are mentioned.

The media are ambitious imbeciles who only know 6th Grade grammar. They shouldn't be any more respected than grade-school dropouts. But we are set up to view them as role models for correct English.

midcan5
12-10-2013, 12:13 PM
Republicans are mostly mentioned and it's very critical, hence why I wanted a succinct answer in what you are trying to discuss here. Neither the thread title or the post itself gives me clues on what you want to debate.

It was a question to you because I'm a dumb jock: what is the subject (succinctly)?

You mostly answered your question, republicans are mentioned more often, but there is a simple reason for that given their behavior since losing in 08. They acted similarly when they lost to Clinton. The subject is stated in the first paragraph, whenever anyone says something watch what they do not what they say. Actions speak louder than words as I'm sure you heard from your parents many times. When politicians mention how much they love our country see how that love is demonstrated. You're on your own from here.

More contributing information, did anyone check the original links.

'The Decay of American Political Institutions' Francis Fukuyama

"We have a problem, but we can’t see it clearly because our focus too often discounts history."

http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2013/12/08/the-decay-of-american-political-institutions/


Addition: Whenever the NRA claims guns don't kill people, people do, ask why plastic guns are banned.

Captain Obvious
12-10-2013, 12:15 PM
http://winace.courageunfettered.com/pics/broad_brush.jpg

Chris
12-10-2013, 12:18 PM
Post #8 => :huh:


I do recognize Fukuyama, the neocon who said we'd reached the end of history: ""What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.""

Yea, sure.

GrassrootsConservative
12-10-2013, 12:21 PM
Hilarious troll thread.


Addition: Whenever the NRA claims guns don't kill people, people do, ask why plastic guns are banned.

Guns don't kill people. No gun has ever killed a person that didn't have a foreign force applying pressure to the trigger. Many people have guns in their house. There's never been a case of a gun killing a person. Not once. Whether it be plastic or metal or a squirt gun, no matter how you twist it.

Doctors, however, they're a different matter entirely:
http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/19812-Doctors-kill-2-450-more-Americans-than-all-gun-related-deaths-combined

Anyway. After hitting "view post" a couple times I am reminded of why I have this kid on ignore. It's plain he doesn't want to discuss facts and only wants to inflame and poison the well.

Good day.

Captain Obvious
12-10-2013, 12:23 PM
Hilarious troll thread.



Guns don't kill people. No gun has ever killed a person that didn't have a foreign force applying pressure to the trigger. Many people have guns in their house. There's never been a case of a gun killing a person. Not once. Whether it be plastic or metal or a squirt gun, no matter how you twist it.

Doctors, however, they're a different matter entirely:

LOL - I missed that. I stopped after the first couple lines of this blathering nonsense.

Some people have no shame when it comes to shitting the bed.

http://www.yanksarecoming.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/soiledbed.jpg

Chris
12-10-2013, 12:44 PM
Only problem I have with midcan is that he and his blog-like posts don't lend themselves to discussion. But there are several members who post like that and no one has any problem with them, so who cares, really.

nic34
12-10-2013, 01:01 PM
How about this approach instead of attack. Pick one of his bullet points and explain how you agree or disagree.

No need to trash midcan's posting style.... I actually think could be a useful conversation it we don't just dismiss it all... as he predicted you all would do, btw....

To start, at least two comments caught my attention.


Whenever a politician is against something ask yourself what they are for, ask them what they are for. Abstract nouns are not an answer.

This one (all) sides are guilty of. I know I am, because I use words like Peace, Love and Compassion. Others throw around Freedom a lot....



Whenever republicans mention Detroit look out your window and check where your car was engineered, manufactured, and built. Ask your representatives same question.


So true. I buy American designs and manufacturers as much as possible.


Good post midcan.

Captain Obvious
12-10-2013, 01:02 PM
Only problem I have with midcan is that he and his blog-like posts don't lend themselves to discussion. But there are several members who post like that and no one has any problem with them, so who cares, really.

Obviously a few do.

Just because you don't doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.

Captain Obvious
12-10-2013, 01:04 PM
And for the record, I could care less what this guy's posting style is.

He strikes me as a one-trick pony. "Republicans evil, Democrats, holy". That's a tell-tale sign of a dimwit.

Plus @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) - he's a lot like you. Knows the textbook definitions but has zero capability of applying concepts to real situations.

Kind of one-dimensional.

.... boring.

GrassrootsConservative
12-10-2013, 01:07 PM
And for the record, I could care less what this guy's posting style is.

He strikes me as a one-trick pony. "Republicans evil, Democrats, holy". That's a tell-tale sign of a dimwit.

Agreed.

Chris
12-10-2013, 01:09 PM
And for the record, I could care less what this guy's posting style is.

He strikes me as a one-trick pony. "Republicans evil, Democrats, holy". That's a tell-tale sign of a dimwit.

Plus @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) - he's a lot like you. Knows the textbook definitions but has zero capability of applying concepts to real situations.

Kind of one-dimensional.

.... boring.


You fail to realize in your lack of concepts that all your experiential data points are meaningless without concepts applied to them.

Libhater
12-10-2013, 02:04 PM
He strikes me as a one-trick pony. "Republicans evil, Democrats, holy". That's a tell-tale sign of a dimwit.

Great deduction, but lets not forget that its the dimocraps that are evil and the Republicans who are righteous. That my friend is a tell-tale sign of a genius.

Captain Obvious
12-10-2013, 03:08 PM
Great deduction, but lets not forget that its the dimocraps that are evil and the Republicans who are righteous. That my friend is a tell-tale sign of a genius.

You're yin to his yang of idiocy.

Too bad you both don't cancel each other out.

midcan5
12-12-2013, 07:46 AM
No need for a broader brush, there is plenty there if you dwell on it for even a minute. It was odd how just this week Paul Ryan came out of the closet - corporations call it a box - and had a divergent thought. Could that just be a reading of the nations's mood, quote the cynic.

"Seven blunders of the world: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle." Mahatma Gandhi

Libhater
12-12-2013, 07:50 AM
You're yin to his yang of idiocy.

Too bad you both don't cancel each other out.

Cancel This!

Chris
12-12-2013, 09:20 AM
No need for a broader brush, there is plenty there if you dwell on it for even a minute. It was odd how just this week Paul Ryan came out of the closet - corporations call it a box - and had a divergent thought. Could that just be a reading of the nations's mood, quote the cynic.

"Seven blunders of the world: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle." Mahatma Gandhi



I think the criticism offered you here is not what you think it is. The criticism is that you present yourself as impartially above the fray but everything you post is anti-conservative, if not anti-libertarian, and pro-liberal.

Captain Obvious
12-12-2013, 10:02 AM
I think the criticism offered you here is not what you think it is. The criticism is that you present yourself as impartially above the fray but everything you post is anti-conservative, if not anti-libertarian, and pro-liberal.

Hey - you figured one out by yourself.

Congrats!!!

Chris
12-12-2013, 10:17 AM
Hey - you figured one out by yourself.

Congrats!!!

No clue what you're talking about--do you?

BB-35
12-12-2013, 10:26 AM
You mostly answered your question, republicans are mentioned more often, but there is a simple reason for that given their behavior since losing in 08. They acted similarly when they lost to Clinton. The subject is stated in the first paragraph, whenever anyone says something watch what they do not what they say. Actions speak louder than words as I'm sure you heard from your parents many times. When politicians mention how much they love our country see how that love is demonstrated. You're on your own from here.

More contributing information, did anyone check the original links.

'The Decay of American Political Institutions' Francis Fukuyama

"We have a problem, but we can’t see it clearly because our focus too often discounts history."

http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2013/12/08/the-decay-of-american-political-institutions/


Addition: Whenever the NRA claims guns don't kill people, people do, ask why plastic guns are banned.

Are you actually serious?...And do you intend to keep bloviating?

midcan5
12-13-2013, 06:06 AM
I think the criticism offered you here is not what you think it is. The criticism is that you present yourself as impartially above the fray but everything you post is anti-conservative, if not anti-libertarian, and pro-liberal.



Hey - you figured one out by yourself.


Congrats!!!



I think the criticism offered you here is not what you think it is. The criticism is that you present yourself as impartially above the fray but everything you post is anti-conservative, if not anti-libertarian, and pro-liberal.



No clue what you're talking about--do you?



Are you actually serious?...And do you intend to keep bloviating?


Whenever you post something online, be aware that 98% of responses will be ad hominem or broad brush dismissals without content or counterpoint.


Chris, et al


'Anti' is the wrong preface, we are all bits and pieces of various ideological stances, it is more a matter of how much you are controlled by partisanship in how we think, how we live, and what we do. Americans who call themselves 'conservatives' today are not conservative in any real sense of the word. I think I have touched on that in my interrogatory. But you see here a truth (fact?) of internet conversation, in person you would at least get a polite response, online the trolls - especially on the right - only add programmed put downs. Schoolyard banter of fifth graders.

Chris
12-13-2013, 08:25 AM
Whenever you post something online, be aware that 98% of responses will be ad hominem or broad brush dismissals without content or counterpoint.


Chris, et al


'Anti' is the wrong preface, we are all bits and pieces of various ideological stances, it is more a matter of how much you are controlled by partisanship in how we think, how we live, and what we do. Americans who call themselves 'conservatives' today are not conservative in any real sense of the word. I think I have touched on that in my interrogatory. But you see here a truth (fact?) of internet conversation, in person you would at least get a polite response, online the trolls - especially on the right - only add programmed put downs. Schoolyard banter of fifth graders.



SO no response to my criticism? Where's the conversation?

Mainecoons
12-13-2013, 08:29 AM
Whenever you post something online, be aware that 98% of responses will be ad hominem or broad brush dismissals without content or counterpoint.

Thanks for letting us know how you approach posting here. Your candor is refreshing and appreciated.

:grin:

midcan5
12-13-2013, 08:32 AM
SO no response to my criticism? Where's the conversation?

Maybe I missed it? Post number or restate please.

Chris
12-13-2013, 08:37 AM
I think the criticism offered you here is not what you think it is. The criticism is that you present yourself as impartially above the fray but everything you post is anti-conservative, if not anti-libertarian, and pro-liberal.

Bump at midcan's request.

And, no, it's not ad hom, it's criticism of your messages.

midcan5
12-14-2013, 08:19 AM
Bump at midcan's request.

And, no, it's not ad hom, it's criticism of your messages.

If the comments are not ad hom I have no idea what would be? There is no criticism as criticism would at the very least review parts of the OP. But that requires thought and also an investigation into the topic. A recognition that if some comments are true, do we face them honestly, why are they true, is there a valid reason, or is it simply knee jerk political ideology and also a knee jerk response.

No one is impartial as we all are who we are, best we can do is be honest about the subject and about ourselves. If a political group removes the safety net that helps American people in need and you say so is that 'anti' republican, if a conservative applies their beliefs to other Americans who do not share their beliefs, and you say so is that 'anti?' Am I pro liberal, sure I am, check my 'about me' in profile. Everyone is pro liberal just depends on the issue. Pigeon holes are easy for thought, weak in life.


"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." Winston Churchill


"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman


"Which are the arguments and how many are there? I must have an inbred urge toward symmetry. In canvassing for the principal ways of criticizing, assaulting, and ridiculing the three successive "progressive" thrusts of Marshall's story, I have come up with another triad: that is, with three principal reactive-reactionary theses, which I call the perversity thesis or thesis of the perverse effect, the futility thesis, and the jeopardy thesis. According to the perversity thesis, any purposive action to improve some feature of the political, social, or economic order only serves to exacerbate the condition one wishes to remedy. The futility thesis holds that attempts at social transformation will be unavailing, that they will simply fail to "make a dent." Finally, the jeopardy thesis argues that the cost of the proposed change or reform is too high as it endangers some previous, precious accomplishment." Albert Hirschman 'The Rhetoric of Reaction'

Chris
12-14-2013, 02:15 PM
No one is impartial as we all are who we are, best we can do is be honest about the subject and about ourselves.

Good, you got the criticism then.


If a political group removes the safety net that helps American people in need and you say so is that 'anti' republican, if a conservative applies their beliefs to other Americans who do not share their beliefs, and you say so is that 'anti?' Am I pro liberal, sure I am, check my 'about me' in profile. Everyone is pro liberal just depends on the issue. Pigeon holes are easy for thought, weak in life.

Problem is that's spin, political spin, liberal spin, that conservatives in general want to remove the safety net. It's also spin that you associate conservatives with Republicans. It is spin that pigeon holes.


Got to love to how you toss libertarians in.



Everyone is pro liberal just depends on the issue.

Actually, it depends on whether your principles derive from classical or modern liberals. As a libertarian, while I favor classical liberalism's effort to free the people by natural law and rights from government, I do not favor modern liberalisms chaining us back to government dependence.

Liberalism is about principles by which you arrive at positions, not the positions on issues you somehow arrive at.

midcan5
12-16-2013, 01:48 PM
Chris, for someone who is older I am amazed at your comfortable bubble views. Your posts assume a rationality that does not exist in the real world. Principles derive from whatever is the head of the person(s) pretending it is principled. Check the Iraq - war - invasion - democracy founding - whatever - as a prime example. Or check the apologetic nonsense about poverty and inequality today. Victims are so easy to create and blame, history is full of them. Check out Parfit's 'Reasons and Persons' sometime, it is heavy lifting. http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/019824908X.001.0001/acprof-9780198249085


As for libertarianism, that's just modern American elitist silliness, kinda like communism, only this time the magic free-market will bring utopia if we just let it go. What hooey. http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html


Below is an old post, still works. And lots below on how republicans who call themselves conservatives have hurt fellow Americans. Take note I try to backup my writing with source material.


There are in America certain realities, I want to outline them as succinctly as possible to set out my position in this thread before replying again. If you think them untrue, support your position with references that counter them.


There is not a single recent statistic that does not point to growing inequality in America.
A society that is more equal functions better than one in which only a few possess wealth.
No one on the left is claiming we should all be equal.
Wealth can only be created in a society of citizens with a recognized and respected, functioning government.
The goal of taxation is both to manage the country and to make sure the wealth of the nation supports the infrastructure and its people.
The best periods in America history were when taxes were highest for the rich - those who benefited most from living in America.
Reducing taxes for the wealthy does not create jobs, never has.
The proof of any policy is in its accomplishments. The pudding still counts.
Republican policies of supporting the wealthy have failed for nearly 100 years.
Coolidge/Hoover, Reagan/Bush, and Bush Jr all required massive government intervention to prevent economic chaos. GD, S&L, Great Recession.
Welfare does not equate to wealth. There never was a Cadillac Mom. Welfare, when needed, is the moral and religious thing to do.
Trickle down economics does not work and is really a stupid idea.


No conservative / libertarian / republican has countered these points nor can.


'Why Do Republicans Hate America?' http://contemporarycondition.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-do-republicans-hate-america.html


http://www.politicususa.com/the-consequences-of-evil-republican-legislation-since-2010/


'30 Pieces Of Legislation That Republicans Are Using To Destroy America' http://www.politicususa.com/30-republican-legislation


'This Week in Poverty' http://www.thenation.com/blog/176278/week-poverty-new-data-same-story-and-same-dangerous-house-republicans


"According to the Census Bureau, food stamps kept 4 million people out of poverty last year. The Congressional Budget Office reports that the House proposal would cut assistance to nearly 4 million low-income people in 2014 and an average of 3 million more each year for the next decade. Christian leaders across the evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian-American church spectrum are reacting with moral outrage at this assault on the people that Jesus specifically instructs us to protect.


Many of these leaders are from the Circle of Protection, a coalition of more than 65 heads of denominations and religious organizations, plus more than 5,000 church pastors. We have been working for more than two years to resist federal budget cuts that undermine the lives, dignity, and rights of poor and vulnerable people." http://sojo.net/blogs/2013/09/19/just-picking-poor-facts-and-faces-cutting-snap


'Axe Food Stamps Amid Reports of Devastating Poverty' https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/18-5


A rant piece: 'Why I'm joining the GOP' http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0529-30.htm


"The current Population Survey data show that 15 percent of Americans, roughly 46.5 million people, live at or below the government-defined poverty line—which, as most who work with the hungry, the homeless, the uninsured, and the underpaid or unemployed know, is itself an inadequate measure of poverty. By more reasonable measures, poverty in this country is even more pervasive." http://www.thenation.com/article/176242/americas-shameful-poverty-stats




'Poverty among African-American children is especially alarming—putting a generation at risk. More than a third (35.7 percent) of all African-American children lives in poverty, compared to one in five children living in poverty in the country as a whole.' http://www.bread.org/what-we-do/resources/fact-sheets/african-american-poverty.pdf




'The American Way of Poverty: How the Other Half Still Lives' Sasha Abramsky
'The Betrayal of the American Dream Hardcover' Donald L. Barlett, James B. Steele
'To Serve God and Wal-Mart: The Making of Christian Free Enterprise' Bethany Moreton
'Invisible Hands: The Businessmen's Crusade Against the New Deal' Kim Phillips-Fein
'Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming' Naomi Oreskes, Erik M. M. Conway




"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." Friedrich Nietzsche

Chris
12-16-2013, 01:54 PM
Was that a response to me, midcan? It's mere ad hoc that addresses nothing of what I've said, hypocritically so when it was you whining earlier about that.

That's as far as I got with your canned blog - like post.

iustitia
12-16-2013, 01:54 PM
Do you believe the New Deal was created to help the average American?

nic34
12-16-2013, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the reminder midcan:

A recent study (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/the-rich-get-richer-through-the-recovery/) by University of California researchers shows that 95 percent of all income gains have gone to the top one percent since the so-called "recovery" began in 2009.

Meanwhile, a new report (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/05-5) by the U.S. Department of Agriculture reveals that food insecurity in the United States remains at record levels for the 5th year in a row, with 17.6 million households having difficulty feeding their families and 7 million households suffering from "very low food security" that forced them to go hungry in 2012.

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/18-5

Merry Christmas

Chris
12-16-2013, 02:07 PM
Thanks for the reminder midcan:

A recent study (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/the-rich-get-richer-through-the-recovery/) by University of California researchers shows that 95 percent of all income gains have gone to the top one percent since the so-called "recovery" began in 2009.

Meanwhile, a new report (http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/05-5) by the U.S. Department of Agriculture reveals that food insecurity in the United States remains at record levels for the 5th year in a row, with 17.6 million households having difficulty feeding their families and 7 million households suffering from "very low food security" that forced them to go hungry in 2012.

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/18-5

Merry Christmas

Thanks to crony corporatism.

midcan5
12-18-2013, 01:58 PM
Chris, the answer was there but you refuse to see it or even to challenge your assumptions. Another example of the hurt done to Americans is quoted below.


Nic34, et al, Merry Christmas and happy holiday.



'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'


"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f28/edc3/Blogs/IMG_2317sm.jpg

Chris
12-18-2013, 02:02 PM
Another example of the hurt done to Americans is quoted below.

Done by who, midcan? See How Government Regulations Made Healthcare So Expensive (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/20264-How-Government-Regulations-Made-Healthcare-So-Expensive).

nic34
12-18-2013, 02:16 PM
Done by who, midcan? See How Government Regulations Made Healthcare So Expensive (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/20264-How-Government-Regulations-Made-Healthcare-So-Expensive).

Why are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc... richest nations immune?

We seem to afford everything else, where are lives of citizens on the scale of "importance"?

Chris
12-18-2013, 02:58 PM
Why are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc... richest nations immune?

We seem to afford everything else, where are lives of citizens on the scale of "importance"?

Follow the link.

On a scale of importance, to our government I'd say the people rank next to nothing other than to buy votes.

nic34
12-18-2013, 04:12 PM
Follow the link.

On a scale of importance, to our government I'd say the people rank next to nothing other than to buy votes.

You cite says nothing about other countries. They seem to prioritize health care in those places.

But our health outcomes don't reflect our investment in health care. We're 25th in maternal mortality; 26th in life expectancy; 28th in low birth weight; 31st in infant mortality.

The reasons behind those low rankings are complex. But one is that even as we spend lavishly on health care we're stingy on the other kinds of spending that support good health:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/health-care-plus-social-services.jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/19/the-two-most-important-numbers-in-american-health-care/

AmazonTania
12-18-2013, 04:14 PM
They provide more services in terms of check ups and hospital visits.

Surgeries and medical procedures are another matter.

Let me know when you'd like to see that data.

nic34
12-18-2013, 04:25 PM
They provide more services in terms of check ups and hospital visits.

Surgeries and medical procedures are another matter.



Bingo.

Chris
12-18-2013, 04:27 PM
You cite says nothing about other countries. They seem to prioritize health care in those places.

But our health outcomes don't reflect our investment in health care. We're 25th in maternal mortality; 26th in life expectancy; 28th in low birth weight; 31st in infant mortality.

The reasons behind those low rankings are complex. But one is that even as we spend lavishly on health care we're stingy on the other kinds of spending that support good health:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/health-care-plus-social-services.jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/19/the-two-most-important-numbers-in-american-health-care/



We invest plenty in healthcare, nic, through crony corporatism the insurance industry is getting rich.

What that says is, no, our government doesn't really give a damn about healthcare.

AmazonTania
12-18-2013, 04:31 PM
Bingo.

What do you mean 'bingo?' How does it help you if you are diagnosed but could never obtain a producer in a timely manner. Or at all in most cases.

Health Care services go far beyond check ups and hospital visits. Other countries spend less because they have a price control. America performs more medical procedures than any other developed nation.

You spend less, you get less. It's that simple.