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Green Arrow
12-11-2013, 09:20 PM
It's fairly common these days to use the term "conspiracy theorist" as a pejorative, an insult to imply someone is crazy and believes in wacky things about the government. If one so much as dares to question the government's position on things that happen, such as the Boston Marathon Bombing and 9/11, they are slapped with the "conspiracy theorist" label and get themselves laughed out of more "respectable" company.

Fortunately for everyone, that is a lie, and a laughable one at that. It's nothing more than Orwellian Newspeak. The people who peddle this lie are taking a word, a phrase, that has a set meaning and assigning it with a new meaning. They do this for no other reason than to shut down discussion and damage the credibility of the person speaking.

The simple fact is that the government is made up of individual humans. Individual humans are not perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination. If we agree that humans are not perfect, and the government is made up of humans, then why is it unreasonable to suggest that the government doesn't always do the right thing?

I'll give you an example. If I posted a thread on this very forum alleging that for at least 25 years of American history, the federal government sat by while the CIA conducted a program to develop brainwashing techniques, and part of that program involved dosing American children with LSD and sexually abusing them, what response would I get? People would think I was nuts and use the dreaded pejorative of "conspiracy theorist."

See, I thought the same thing once, until I saw declassified documents from the CIA (http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Project_MKULTRA.html) proving that Project MKULTRA was a real thing. On top of that, I saw Congressional testimony also proving that it actually happened.

Then, of course, I stumbled upon declassified CIA documents about Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax#U.S._role), the CIA plot that destroyed Iranian democracy in the 1950s and led to the eventual rise of the Islamic Revolution that put the Ayatollahs in power and caused our current problems with Iran.

After that, I was shocked to find out that we've been covertly aiding dictators and genocidal maniacs for decades. President Ronald Reagan even broke Congressional law to aid Nicaraguan rebels.

In light of all of this, how can it possibly be considered ridiculous to question the government's actions and morality?

Codename Section
12-11-2013, 09:21 PM
I am in Middle Earth but I want to comment on this. BRB.

KC
12-11-2013, 09:29 PM
See, I thought the same thing once, until I saw declassified documents from the CIA (http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Project_MKULTRA.html) proving that Project MKULTRA was a real thing. On top of that, I saw Congressional testimony also proving that it actually happened.

Then, of course, I stumbled upon declassified CIA documents about Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax#U.S._role), the CIA plot that destroyed Iranian democracy in the 1950s and led to the eventual rise of the Islamic Revolution that put the Ayatollahs in power and caused our current problems with Iran.


When it comes to conspiracies I prefer to reserve judgement. In the case of the CIA, we usually learn what they've been up to within a couple of decades.

The State Dept. now publishes CIA documents from Operation AJAX. I used this site for my research on Operation PBSuccess, the CIA coup that destroyed Guatemalan democracy. It's extremely useful and if you're ever in a mood to learn more details about the atrocities of our government, have a look and see what you can find.

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments

MrJimmyDale
12-11-2013, 09:39 PM
of your 3 examples......
I'll not put #2 or #3 in the "conspiracy theory" category........

Mister D
12-11-2013, 09:50 PM
After that, I was shocked to find out that we've been covertly aiding dictators and genocidal maniacs for decades.

That wasn't exactly covert.
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) I heard this the other day and I agree. The person who said it was making the same point.


Everything is a conspiracy.

I think that's true if by that we mean people in power often cause things to happen to achieve a particular goal and seek to conceal their involvement.

iustitia
12-11-2013, 09:52 PM
LMFAO I was totally going to post about MKULTRA. I have like 8 scanned stories and documents about it.

Codename Section
12-11-2013, 10:06 PM
LMFAO I was totally going to post about MKULTRA. I have like 8 scanned stories and documents about it.

I downloaded the whole thing on a friend's advice and I got sick about 30 docs in when I found out what we did to kids.

iustitia
12-11-2013, 10:23 PM
I downloaded the whole thing on a friend's advice and I got sick about 30 docs in when I found out what we did to kids.

The sad thing is that it's only the tip of the iceberg. It's like I said in my eugenics topic- that's just what we do know. The numbers don't include what we haven't been told or haven't found out yet. I'll be file dumping a shit-ton of documents tomorrow about our government and Wall Street recreating the German was machine after WWI and allowing Hitler's rise, America's involvement in the Bolshevik Revolution, America saving Nazi scientists in Operation Paperclip, our government secretly using terrorism during Operation Gladio, Operation Northwoods, the Gold Triangle and the real reasons for the Vietnam War...

It's disgusting that people can't freely talk about these things without either being called a nutjob or a traitor. It's not like we're talking alien overlords here. These are historical facts that are wrong to acknowledge. It's not like conspiracies don't exist. The Tuskegee experiments went on for 40 years and people conspired to keep it under wraps. I'm not saying the president is secretly Bigfoot, but conspiracies are real and to deny that is to deny reality.

Clearly the solution is more funding for public school, amirite?

Codename Section
12-11-2013, 10:27 PM
I have difficulties with intelligent people plugging their ears and closing their eyes and believing that "it's all in the past", as if we'd never do that now--especially when each day we find out more and more shit they've done on the NSA thing that's contradicted itself.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 01:09 AM
There are tons of declassified things that show our government is capable of anything. Perhaps 9/11 will be declassified at some point and show American involvement, who knows?

Gerrard Winstanley
12-12-2013, 02:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yJzQcsSVR7E

A personal favorite.

patrickt
12-12-2013, 05:45 AM
So, George Bush blew up the World Trade Centers, Lyndon B. Johnson killed John F. Kennedy, AIDS was created by the CIA to kill blacks and gays, and the liberal destruction of black families and neighborhoods was moving too slowly so the government concocted crack and loosed it on the world.

That's right, folks, there is no such thing as a conspiracy theory or theorists. A good friend of mine insists that wherever he tries to live, the Mexican mafia starts commercial cooking of pork and the fumes will make him burst into flames if he doesn't run away and sleep on the sidewalk. And, until now I thought he was nutty but I must be wrong.

Using phrases such as conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, homophobe, or, gasp, conservative are often used to stop discussion, avoid arguments, or pretend to have said something that, of course, wasn't said.You can stop any discussion by simply sneering and saying, "Oh, you're just a...." Now, pick your term.

FWIW, I've never heard anyone say that the CIA has not done horrible things. Does that mean they created AIDS? Well, not for me, it doesn't.

What it means to me is that we do need transparency in government, we desperately need to restore checks and balances, and we need to deal with the fact that government agencies with power are using that power for political ends.

But, I suppose, any loony idea should be now accepted as valid until it's proven false. Another man I know is convinced, and will argue, that the Jews, Nazis, and Communists are conspiring to rule the world. Damn, and I never believed him. Maybe is father was murdered and replaced with Hitler after he escaped Berlin?

Libhater
12-12-2013, 06:01 AM
Would you call it a conspiracy theory or just politics as usual the way this administration has covered up everything from the Benghazi affair, to the IRS debacle, to the Fast and Furious scandal and to the sweet heart deals to get obummercare to pass through congress etc.?

Ravi
12-12-2013, 06:06 AM
Just because the government did bad things doesn't mean it is responsible for 911 and the marathon bombing. Conspiracy theorist is a mental disorder.

countryboy
12-12-2013, 06:30 AM
It's fairly common these days to use the term "conspiracy theorist" as a pejorative, an insult to imply someone is crazy and believes in wacky things about the government. If one so much as dares to question the government's position on things that happen, such as the Boston Marathon Bombing and 9/11, they are slapped with the "conspiracy theorist" label and get themselves laughed out of more "respectable" company.

Fortunately for everyone, that is a lie, and a laughable one at that. It's nothing more than Orwellian Newspeak. The people who peddle this lie are taking a word, a phrase, that has a set meaning and assigning it with a new meaning. They do this for no other reason than to shut down discussion and damage the credibility of the person speaking.

The simple fact is that the government is made up of individual humans. Individual humans are not perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination. If we agree that humans are not perfect, and the government is made up of humans, then why is it unreasonable to suggest that the government doesn't always do the right thing?

I'll give you an example. If I posted a thread on this very forum alleging that for at least 25 years of American history, the federal government sat by while the CIA conducted a program to develop brainwashing techniques, and part of that program involved dosing American children with LSD and sexually abusing them, what response would I get? People would think I was nuts and use the dreaded pejorative of "conspiracy theorist."

See, I thought the same thing once, until I saw declassified documents from the CIA (http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Project_MKULTRA.html) proving that Project MKULTRA was a real thing. On top of that, I saw Congressional testimony also proving that it actually happened.

Then, of course, I stumbled upon declassified CIA documents about Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax#U.S._role), the CIA plot that destroyed Iranian democracy in the 1950s and led to the eventual rise of the Islamic Revolution that put the Ayatollahs in power and caused our current problems with Iran.

After that, I was shocked to find out that we've been covertly aiding dictators and genocidal maniacs for decades. President Ronald Reagan even broke Congressional law to aid Nicaraguan rebels.

In light of all of this, how can it possibly be considered ridiculous to question the government's actions and morality?
It's a two way street GA. Often times the conspiracy theorists are not willing to have a civil discussion. Instead they resort to name calling and assigning pejorative labels of their own to anyone who disagrees with them. :wink:

It's different when people present actual credible evidence, in a polite manner. But with many conspiracy theorists, this simply isn't the case. They basically invite criticism, thereby hurting their own "cause".

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 09:43 AM
So, George Bush blew up the World Trade Centers, Lyndon B. Johnson killed John F. Kennedy, AIDS was created by the CIA to kill blacks and gays, and the liberal destruction of black families and neighborhoods was moving too slowly so the government concocted crack and loosed it on the world.

That's right, folks, there is no such thing as a conspiracy theory or theorists. A good friend of mine insists that wherever he tries to live, the Mexican mafia starts commercial cooking of pork and the fumes will make him burst into flames if he doesn't run away and sleep on the sidewalk. And, until now I thought he was nutty but I must be wrong.

Using phrases such as conspiracy theorist, racist, sexist, homophobe, or, gasp, conservative are often used to stop discussion, avoid arguments, or pretend to have said something that, of course, wasn't said.You can stop any discussion by simply sneering and saying, "Oh, you're just a...." Now, pick your term.

FWIW, I've never heard anyone say that the CIA has not done horrible things. Does that mean they created AIDS? Well, not for me, it doesn't.

What it means to me is that we do need transparency in government, we desperately need to restore checks and balances, and we need to deal with the fact that government agencies with power are using that power for political ends.

But, I suppose, any loony idea should be now accepted as valid until it's proven false. Another man I know is convinced, and will argue, that the Jews, Nazis, and Communists are conspiring to rule the world. Damn, and I never believed him. Maybe is father was murdered and replaced with Hitler after he escaped Berlin?


Yeh, you missed the boat on this one. Using sarcasm to extend his argument past what he was making so it can be knocked around is just pretty thin.

He brought up things that would have been considered conspiracy theories in the past, things now verified, and this is the response...the response that makes his point.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 09:44 AM
It's a two way street GA. Often times the conspiracy theorists are not willing to have a civil discussion. Instead they resort to name calling and assigning pejorative labels of their own to anyone who disagrees with them. :wink:

It's different when people present actual credible evidence, in a polite manner. But with many conspiracy theorists, this simply isn't the case. They basically invite criticism, thereby hurting their own "cause".

Let's have THE DISCUSSION then countryboy.

Why not try it instead of saying who or what conspiracy theorists are? This isn't about conspiracy theorists, to attack them is not addressing the OP. It's about why they question things.

patrickt
12-12-2013, 09:46 AM
As I was walking my dog and cleaning up after him I pondered this thread. The old saying of, "A secret can be kept by three people if two of them are dead," is, in my opinion, correct. The My Lai massacre. A conspiracy was attempted but there were people there who didn't go along with it. There were people there who rescued potential victims. And, there were people willing to talk. The government, to their shame, did not recognize those who did what was right until much, much later. We have a plethora of conspiracies going aground over the years. President Nixon and Watergate. President Clinton and Sandy "Burglar" Berger. We're treated to the ATF fiasco at Waco. The IRS scandal currently oozing. The government has the pleasure of watching senior executives plead the fifth like common criminals. Well, they are common criminals, aren't they? Conspiracies are almost impossible complicated and secrecy is almost impossible to maintain.

And then I thought of my nutty friends and other conspiracy theorists. When someone comes up with a logical fallacy in their conspiracy they have a almost magical explanation. When my friend who going to burst into flames from pork being cooked decided that my problem with his story was the pork, he shifted tho Chinese food. That would make him burst into flames. I laughed and pointed out that once every week or so we'd go to the Chinese buffet where he would spend two hours stuffing his face and the fumes from the cooking didn't bother him. There was a moment of confusion and then a smile. "Isn't it obvious? They aren't really cooking there. They cook somehwere else and bring it in." Right. When conspiracy theorists hit an inconvenient fact they magically make it go away.

It's also amazing to me how many conspiracies are floated by politicians and wannabee politicians. Van Jones, John Buchanana, and Jeff Boss with the Truther conspiracy. Consider Sen. John Kerry and his passionate and bogus conspiracies about government actions in Vietnam.

Was there a government program to give children LSD and molest them? I don't believe there was.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 09:50 AM
Just because the government did bad things doesn't mean it is responsible for 911 and the marathon bombing.

No one said it was. Who said it was?



Conspiracy theorist is a mental disorder.

Can you explain this disorder, Dr. Ravi? :D

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 09:52 AM
Was there a government program to give children LSD and molest them? I don't believe there was.
patrickt,

that's the one that's real. The CIA was hauled into the Senate and all the remaining docs are declassified. Over 4,000 pages of programmatic docs from the 1950s-1976, and beyond (based on testimony before Congress)

The Congressional testimony is on Youtube. The survivors have been paid. Why would we pay people for lies? Why would the CIA create program manuals they never used?

Come out from beneath the rock, please.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 11:42 AM
Some theories have merit. Some are patently ridiculous. Some are simply news only to the theorists themselves.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 11:48 AM
Some theories have merit. Some are patently ridiculous. Some are simply news only to the theorists themselves.

When some have merit, extreme cases, it's ridiculous to call the others ridiculous.

Drugging up hookers without their knowing with LSD then suggesting they fuck people for blackmail while they watch behind a one-way mirror in a famous hotel is ridiculous and true.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 11:52 AM
When some have merit, extreme cases, it's ridiculous to call the others ridiculous.

Drugging up hookers without their knowing with LSD then suggesting they fuck people for blackmail while they watch behind a one-way mirror in a famous hotel is ridiculous and true.

Merit is decided on the basis of facts not innuendo, speculation, and hunches. Again, some have merit, some are patently ridiculous, and some are news only to the theorists themselves.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 11:56 AM
Merit is decided on the basis of facts not innuendo, speculation, and hunches. Again, some have merit, some are patently ridiculous, and some are news only to the theorists themselves.

Operation Midnight (http://www.sfweekly.com/2012-03-14/news/cia-lsd-wayne-ritchie-george-h-white-mk-ultra/)?


Seymour Hersh (http://www.sfweekly.com/related/to/Seymour+Hersh/) first exposed MK-ULTRA in a New York Times article in 1974 that documented CIA illegalities, including the use of its own citizens as guinea pigs in games of war and espionage. John Marks (http://www.sfweekly.com/related/to/John+Marks/) expertly chronicled more of the operation in his 1979 book, The Search for the Manchurian Candidate (http://www.sfweekly.com/related/to/The+Manchurian+Candidate/). There have been other reports on the CIA's doping of civilians, but they have mostly dished about activities in New York City. Accounts of what actually occurred in San Francisco have been sparse and sporadic. But newly declassified CIA records, recent interviews, and a personal diary of an operative at Stanford Special Collections shed more light on the breadth of the San Francisco operation.

There were at least three CIA safe houses in the Bay Area where experiments went on. Chief among them was 225 Chestnut on Telegraph Hill, which operated from 1955 to 1965. The L-shaped apartment boasted sweeping waterfront views, and was just a short trip up the hill from North Beach's rowdy saloons. Inside, prostitutes paid by the government to lure clients to the apartment served up acid-laced cocktails to unsuspecting johns, while martini-swilling secret agents observed their every move from behind a two-way mirror. Recording devices were installed, some disguised as electrical outlets.


That's not the worst of them. It's not without merit, it's not patently ridiculous. When we do things like this or spend money trying to get people to blow up goats with their minds, we set the stage for honest questioning.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 11:59 AM
Operation Midnight (http://www.sfweekly.com/2012-03-14/news/cia-lsd-wayne-ritchie-george-h-white-mk-ultra/)?




That's not the worst of them. It's not without merit, it's not patently ridiculous. When we do things like this or spend money trying to get people to blow up goats with their minds, we set the stage for honest questioning.

You're really not getting this. Never mind.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 12:00 PM
You're really not getting this. Never mind.

No, I think you're really not getting this. Never mind. :D

The Xl
12-12-2013, 01:20 PM
Just because the government did bad things doesn't mean it is responsible for 911 and the marathon bombing. Conspiracy theorist is a mental disorder.

Being a dumb shit like yourself is a mental disorder.

The government has done things as bad or worse than 9/11, and the shit is declassified, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

iustitia
12-12-2013, 01:21 PM
Operation Paperclip: Saving Nazi scientists and war criminals without Truman even knowing
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157688/Operation-Paperclip-Final-Report-2007

Operation Northwoods: Plot to use false flag attack to invade Cuba (p.s. Lemnitzer was a real scumbag)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157677/Operation-Northwoods

Operation MKULTRA: CIA experiments on humans with drugs for mind control and other purposes
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157654/CIA-Mkultra-7-16-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157656/CIA-Mkultra-8-2-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157659/CIA-MKULTRA-80-Institutions-8-4-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157671/CIA-Sidney-Gottlieb-9-7-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157664/CIA-MKULTRA-Sidney-Gottlieb-9-20-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157662/CIA-MKULTRA-CIA-Spray-Drug-on-Partygoers-9-21-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157668/CIA-MKULTRA-University-Work-10-9-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157651/CIA-Mkultra-4-17-1985
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157579/CIA-LSD-Sidney-Gottlieb-3-10-1999

Operation Gladio: CIA and NATO using terrorism to panic the public
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157676/Operation-Gladio

FBI knowingly let WTC get bombed in 1993 then lied about it
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157673/FBI-AllowedWTC-Bombing

The government never engages in conspiracies folks.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Operation Paperclip: Saving Nazi scientists and war criminals without Truman even knowing
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157688/Operation-Paperclip-Final-Report-2007

Operation Northwoods: Plot to use false flag attack to invade Cuba (p.s. Lemnitzer was a real scumbag)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157677/Operation-Northwoods

Operation MKULTRA: CIA experiments on humans with drugs for mind control and other purposes
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157654/CIA-Mkultra-7-16-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157656/CIA-Mkultra-8-2-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157659/CIA-MKULTRA-80-Institutions-8-4-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157671/CIA-Sidney-Gottlieb-9-7-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157664/CIA-MKULTRA-Sidney-Gottlieb-9-20-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157662/CIA-MKULTRA-CIA-Spray-Drug-on-Partygoers-9-21-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157668/CIA-MKULTRA-University-Work-10-9-1977
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157651/CIA-Mkultra-4-17-1985
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157579/CIA-LSD-Sidney-Gottlieb-3-10-1999

Operation Gladio: CIA and NATO using terrorism to panic the public
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157676/Operation-Gladio

FBI knowingly let WTC get bombed in 1993 then lied about it
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191157673/FBI-AllowedWTC-Bombing

The government never engages in conspiracies folks.

Fucking this. The government does nefarious shit all the time.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 01:41 PM
The problem is that the declassified docs of things we've done are boring government documents and no one wants to read those.

Ravi
12-12-2013, 01:41 PM
Being a dumb shit like yourself is a mental disorder.


You seem angry.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 01:49 PM
You seem angry.

Pointing out a fact isn't anger.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 01:49 PM
I'm not supposed to mod in a thread I'm posting in, but let's leave off the name-calling.

patrickt
12-12-2013, 01:50 PM
When some have merit, extreme cases, it's ridiculous to call the others ridiculous.

Drugging up hookers without their knowing with LSD then suggesting they fuck people for blackmail while they watch behind a one-way mirror in a famous hotel is ridiculous and true.

So, you can say whatever you want, smugly declare it true and expect me to think you don't live under a rock. I'm still waiting for the part where children were given LSD and sexually abused.

nic34
12-12-2013, 01:52 PM
LMFAO I was totally going to post about MKULTRA. I have like 8 scanned stories and documents about it.
Ok Bob, what made you drop out?

Some people think it was the 400 acid trips I took....

Yeah Bob, but what was it really?

I played Black Sabbath at 78 speed...

And then what happened?

I saw God!

(Chong watching the TV: "I've done that man!")

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 01:53 PM
So, you can say whatever you want, smugly declare it true and expect me to think you don't live under a rock.

Dude, there are links on here to that. Do you read the whole thread before posting in it? Links to Congressional testimony, the FOIA docs, etc.

Rock...under it...you.

patrickt
12-12-2013, 01:55 PM
Sorry, Dude, but you're making the claim. As for your childish rock fetish, fuck off.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 01:57 PM
Fucking this. The government does nefarious shit all the time.

Like "saving" "Nazi" scientists from working for the Soviets? Geepers.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 01:58 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1hT4uSGk6-s/UACLF1kDKiI/AAAAAAAAA2U/1QyuMtUVEVU/s1600/MKULTRA.jpg


http://www.usa-anti-communist.com/ard/images/Project_MKULTRA_1977_pdf_Page_045.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf/page1-220px-ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf.jpg



Project MKUltra is the code name of a U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._government) human research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_engineering) through the CIA's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) Scientific Intelligence Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Scientific_Intelligence). The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-1) The program engaged in many illegal activities;[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-4) in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)(p74)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-7) MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD)) and other chemicals, hypnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis), sensory deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation), isolation, verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse) and sexual abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse), as well as various forms of torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-8)
The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-autogenerated6-9) The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_organization), although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-ReferenceA-10) As the Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) later noted, MKULTRA was:

concerned with "the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." The program consisted of some 149 subprojects which the Agency contracted out to various universities, research foundations, and similar institutions. At least 80 institutions and 185 private researchers participated. Because the Agency funded MKULTRA indirectly, many of the participating individuals were unaware that they were dealing with the Agency.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-11)
Project MKUltra was first brought to public attention in 1975 by the Church Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee) of the U.S. Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress), and a Gerald Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford) commission to investigate CIA activities within the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President%27s_Commission_on_CIA_acti vities_within_the_United_States). Investigative efforts were hampered by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Helms) ordered all MKUltra files destroyed in 1973; the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Cia-12)


In 1977, a Freedom of Information Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_%28United_States%29) request uncovered a cache of 20,000 documents relating to project MKUltra, which led to Senate hearings later that same year.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2) In July 2001 some surviving information regarding MKUltra was officially declassified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declassification).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

patrickt

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/13inmate_ProjectMKULTRA.pdf

^^Link to the official .pdf of the Congressional Testimony


A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence suggests that Theodore Kaczynski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski), also known as the Unabomber, participated in CIA-sponsored MKUltra experiments conducted at Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University) from the fall of 1959 through the spring of 1962.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76) During World War II, Henry Murray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Murray), the lead researcher in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic Services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services) (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied for a grant funded by the United States Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy), and his Harvard stress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28biological%29) experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76) Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and "ethically indefensible."[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-77)

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 01:58 PM
Sorry, Dude, but you're making the claim. Back under your rock, Dude.

Just posted. See above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINQ4jiQFsI


It's not that hard if you care to look.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:03 PM
patrickt

You don't even have to apologize. I'll accept your silence as proof that you know I'm right. :D

Mister D
12-12-2013, 02:03 PM
The problem is that the declassified docs of things we've done are boring government documents and no one wants to read those.

Actually, the problem is their declassified status. It's not a secret.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:05 PM
Actually, the problem is their declassified status. It's not a secret.

If I said to you, Hey, give me $500 of your hard earned cash and I'll do something cool with it but you gotta trust me and never know, you'd be fine with that?

What it that something was the sexual abuse of children?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINQ4jiQFsI

Mister D
12-12-2013, 02:06 PM
If I said to you, Hey, give me $500 of your hard earned cash and I'll do something cool with it but you gotta trust me and never know, you'd be fine with that?

What it that something was the sexual abuse of children?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINQ4jiQFsI

Who's fine with it?

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:07 PM
Who's fine with it?


I don't know. I'm asking you. You said the problem was that it was declassified, not that we did it. Maybe you can clarify?

patrickt
12-12-2013, 02:07 PM
From the OP:
"If I posted a thread on this very forum alleging that for at least 25 years of American history, the federal government sat by while the CIA conducted a program to develop brainwashing techniques, and part of that program involved dosing American children with LSD and sexually abusing them, what response would I get?"

Keep flailing, Codename. I'm waiting for "dosing children with LSD and sexually abusing them."

It is normal for conspiracy theorists to take something that is reasonable and then run with it into fantasies and bizarre nonsense. They also get amazingly testy when their dearly held beliefs are challenged.

patrickt
12-12-2013, 02:08 PM
@patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348)

You don't even have to apologize. I'll accept your silence as proof that you know I'm right. :D

Spoken like a true nut. I can see the loony in you saying, "People don't want to discuss this with me, not because I'm an ass but because they know I'm right."

Wrong again.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:09 PM
From the OP:
"If I posted a thread on this very forum alleging that for at least 25 years of American history, the federal government sat by while the CIA conducted a program to develop brainwashing techniques, and part of that program involved dosing American children with LSD and sexually abusing them, what response would I get?"

Keep flailing, Codename. I'm waiting for "dosing children with LSD and sexually abusing them."

It is normal for conspiracy theorists to take something that is reasonable and then run with it into fantasies and bizarre nonsense. They also get amazingly testy when their dearly held beliefs are challenged.


Don't pretend I didn't copy you on the post with the links, Patrick. If you want to pretend otherwise that's on you. I'm calling you on it. @iustia linked up to where you can read the .pdfs of all the program FOIA docs that didn't get shredded.

They include sexual assault of children. Follow the .pdf I presented and you'll see that.

Now, you can post in good faith, and that means reading and responding or you can continue to flail around like you're doing now. I don't care which.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 02:11 PM
I don't know. I'm asking you. You said the problem was that it was declassified, not that we did it. Maybe you can clarify?

I guess I need to know what the point of all this is? Paperclip and the allegations connected to "Gladio", for example, are well known to anyone remotely familiar with the Cold War. Am I supposed to hate government now? Is that it? What?

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:12 PM
Spoken like a true nut. I can see the loony in you saying, "People don't want to discuss this with me, not because I'm an ass but because they know I'm right."

Wrong again.


Did you miss this? I doubt it, since I @patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) you in it. You're acting like a kid right now, calling me names and stomping your feet because someone proved you wrong. Deal with your own insecurity and unwillingness to research and dont have a temper tantrum on me because I'm right.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1hT4uSGk6-s/UACLF1kDKiI/AAAAAAAAA2U/1QyuMtUVEVU/s1600/MKULTRA.jpg





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf/page1-220px-ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf.jpg



Project MKUltra is the code name of a U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._government) human research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_engineering) through the CIA's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) Scientific Intelligence Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Scientific_Intelligence). The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-1) The program engaged in many illegal activities;[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-4) in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)(p74)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-7) MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD)) and other chemicals, hypnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis), sensory deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation), isolation, verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse) and sexual abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse), as well as various forms of torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-8)
The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-autogenerated6-9) The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_organization), although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-ReferenceA-10) As the Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) later noted, MKULTRA was:
concerned with "the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." The program consisted of some 149 subprojects which the Agency contracted out to various universities, research foundations, and similar institutions. At least 80 institutions and 185 private researchers participated. Because the Agency funded MKULTRA indirectly, many of the participating individuals were unaware that they were dealing with the Agency.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-11)

Project MKUltra was first brought to public attention in 1975 by the Church Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee) of the U.S. Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress), and a Gerald Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford) commission to investigate CIA activities within the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President's_Commission_on_CIA_activi ties_within_the_United_States). Investigative efforts were hampered by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Helms) ordered all MKUltra files destroyed in 1973; the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Cia-12)


In 1977, a Freedom of Information Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States)) request uncovered a cache of 20,000 documents relating to project MKUltra, which led to Senate hearings later that same year.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2) In July 2001 some surviving information regarding MKUltra was officially declassified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declassification).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

@patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348)

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/13inmate_ProjectMKULTRA.pdf

^^Link to the official .pdf of the Congressional Testimony


A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence suggests that Theodore Kaczynski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski), also known as the Unabomber, participated in CIA-sponsored MKUltra experiments conducted at Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University) from the fall of 1959 through the spring of 1962.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76) During World War II, Henry Murray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Murray), the lead researcher in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic Services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services) (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied for a grant funded by the United States Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy), and his Harvard stress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biological)) experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76) Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and "ethically indefensible."[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Unabomber-76)[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-77)

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:13 PM
I guess I need to know what the point of all this is? Paperclip and the allegations connected to "Gladio", for example, are well known to anyone remotely familiar with the Cold War. Am I supposed to hate government now? Is that it? What?

Does he have to have a point besides saying maybe we should be less trusting?

Mister D
12-12-2013, 02:17 PM
Does he have to have a point besides saying maybe we should be less trusting?

I agree that many citizens are too trusting. No doubt oraginzations connected to our government have done awful things. Things probably got worse once the US was in a position to attain global hegemony post 1945.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:17 PM
Did you miss this? I doubt it, since I @patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) you in it. You're acting like a kid right now, calling me names and stomping your feet because someone proved you wrong. Deal with your own insecurity and unwillingness to research and dont have a temper tantrum on me because I'm right.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1hT4uSGk6-s/UACLF1kDKiI/AAAAAAAAA2U/1QyuMtUVEVU/s1600/MKULTRA.jpg


http://www.usa-anti-communist.com/ard/images/Project_MKULTRA_1977_pdf_Page_045.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf/page1-220px-ProjectMKULTRA_Senate_Report.pdf.jpg



Project MKUltra is the code name of a U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._government) human research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_engineering) through the CIA's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) Scientific Intelligence Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Scientific_Intelligence). The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-1) The program engaged in many illegal activities;[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-4) in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2)(p74)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-7) MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD)) and other chemicals, hypnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis), sensory deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation), isolation, verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse) and sexual abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse), as well as various forms of torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-8)
The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-autogenerated6-9) The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_organization), although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-ReferenceA-10) As the Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States) later noted, MKULTRA was:
concerned with "the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." The program consisted of some 149 subprojects which the Agency contracted out to various universities, research foundations, and similar institutions. At least 80 institutions and 185 private researchers participated. Because the Agency funded MKULTRA indirectly, many of the participating individuals were unaware that they were dealing with the Agency.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-11)

Project MKUltra was first brought to public attention in 1975 by the Church Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee) of the U.S. Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress), and a Gerald Ford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford) commission to investigate CIA activities within the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President's_Commission_on_CIA_activi ties_within_the_United_States). Investigative efforts were hampered by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Helms) ordered all MKUltra files destroyed in 1973; the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-Cia-12)


In 1977, a Freedom of Information Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States)) request uncovered a cache of 20,000 documents relating to project MKUltra, which led to Senate hearings later that same year.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-2) In July 2001 some surviving information regarding MKUltra was officially declassified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declassification).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

@patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348)

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/13inmate_ProjectMKULTRA.pdf

^^Link to the official .pdf of the Congressional Testimony

+ this


Although the CIA insists that MKUltra-type experiments have been abandoned, some CIA observers say there is little reason to believe it does not continue today under a different set of acronyms.[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-autogenerated4-47) 14-year CIA veteran Victor Marchetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Marchetti) has stated in various interviews that the CIA routinely conducts disinformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation) campaigns and that CIA mind control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control) research continued. In a 1977 interview, Marchetti specifically called the CIA claim that MKUltra was abandoned a "cover story."[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-89)[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-90)

The Sage of Main Street
12-12-2013, 02:24 PM
These theories are planted by the very people they pretend to oppose. 9/11 Truthies only created sympathy for Bush.

I hate this even more because I am not allowed to claim, for example, that Leftists are unconscious agents of the Right Wing just because there is no public Conspiracy Theory to back me up. People are tricked into thinking that if not even Conspiracy Theorists will come up with that accusation, it must really be whacko.

Leftists are in denial about who they really work for because if you accuse them of being dupes, they refuse to even answer the indisputable logic of how their policies benefit the Right Wing. Lying to themselves about what really motivates them is the greatest insincerity of all, so I don't care if they don't consciously work for the plutocrats. Guilt is judged by results, not intentions.

The Sage of Main Street
12-12-2013, 02:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yJzQcsSVR7E

A personal favorite.

Who cares? Kuwait always belonged to Iraq (Mesopotamia). This just distracts from the lack of moral justification for the Gulf War. You also never hear from its false-flag critics that it was designed to raise oil prices because Saddam was producing beyond the illegal cartel's quotas in order to fight Iran, which was a far greater enemy of America.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 02:35 PM
It is normal for conspiracy theorists to take something that is reasonable and then run with it into fantasies and bizarre nonsense. They also get amazingly testy when their dearly held beliefs are challenged.

Agreed. It's no coincidence that the declassified projects like MKULTRA were picked as examples instead of the Moon Landing Hoax or 9/11 Truther theories. What about Building 7 again?

Yes, conspiracies happen, but they are often revealed just as MKULTRA was revealed, the Tuskegee Experiment and the Manhattan Project were revealed. That does not legitimize the arguments put forth by "conspiracy theorists" who habitually disregard any facts, science or other evidence contrary to their conspiracy delusions. Yes, most of these people are, indeed, delusional in that particular area even if they function quite well in other areas.

The Sage of Main Street
12-12-2013, 02:37 PM
Being a dumb shit like yourself is a mental disorder.

The government has done things as bad or worse than 9/11, and the shit is declassified, so it's not out of the realm of possibility.

The government is totally incapable of pulling off something like the Truthie version. The people in power and their flunkies didn't get there because of their talent. The whole society is upside down, but even if the successful were superior, no human beings are smart enough to pull off what they are accused of doing. It's like saying that the JEWS bribed people to say that they witnessed the Holocaust and to lie about the population of the European Jews before and after the war, etc.

Ravi
12-12-2013, 02:39 PM
These theories are planted by the very people they pretend to oppose. 9/11 Truthies only created sympathy for Bush.


Yeah, right.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:40 PM
Agreed. It's no coincidence that the declassified projects like MKULTRA were picked as examples instead of the Moon Landing Hoax or 9/11 Truther theories. What about Building 7 again?

Yes, conspiracies happen, but they are often revealed just as MKULTRA was revealed, the Tuskegee Experiment and the Manhattan Project were revealed. That does not legitimize the arguments put forth by "conspiracy theorists" who habitually disregard any facts, science or other evidence contrary to their conspiracy delusions. Yes, most of these people are, indeed, delusional in that particular area even if they function quite well in other areas.

Considering that all of these things were uncovered 20 years later it does blow a hole in the "no conspiracy can exist if more then 2 people know about it" meme.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 02:44 PM
The government is totally incapable of pulling off something like the Truthie version. The people in power and their flunkies didn't get there because of their talent. The whole society is upside down, but even if the successful were superior, no human beings are smart enough to pull off what they are accused of doing. It's like saying that the JEWS bribed people to say that they witnessed the Holocaust and to lie about the population of the European Jews before and after the war, etc.

LOL. Yes. The people who give so much credit for "the government" being supermen obviously have never worked with or for the government.

Example; Lawyers. Lawyers can make a lot more money in the private sector than working in a government job. While there are certainly a few goodie two-shoe crusaders who find such work a "calling", most are either just looking for job experience or so incompetent they can't find a more profitable job.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:47 PM
LOL. Yes. The people who give so much credit for "the government" being supermen obviously have never worked with or for the government.

Example; Lawyers. Lawyers can make a lot more money in the private sector than working in a government job. While there are certainly a few goodie two-shoe crusaders who find such work a "calling", most are either just looking for job experience or so incompetent they can't find a more profitable job.


It's punitive. When you work for an agency that you see do heinous shit and get away with it, your willingness to be a whistleblower (especially now when your ass can be watched 24-7) is pretty much slim to none.

You were in combat, you know who you worked with on intel, you know some of the stuff they did and had you do.

Now, do I think "they" orchestrated 911? Naw. Do I think they're running drugs and trafficking in sex slavery for black money? Yes, I do.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 02:48 PM
Considering that all of these things were uncovered 20 years later it does blow a hole in the "no conspiracy can exist if more then 2 people know about it" meme.

It's not just a time factor, it's a "times" factor. JFK was a huge womanizer, yet reporters of the day looked the other way. Not just for him, but for all politicians. It was the times.

Things began to change in the late 60s as society evolved and changed as exemplified by the Pentagon Papers, Watergate and television news changing from a function to a business.

The Sage of Main Street
12-12-2013, 02:50 PM
I agree that many citizens are too trusting. No doubt oraginzations connected to our government have done awful things. Things probably got worse once the US was in a position to attain global hegemony post 1945.

That brings up one of my own conspiracy theories that you'll never hear anywhere else. That Truman refused to use our nuclear monopoly to scare the Soviets out of Eastern Europe because he wanted the Soviet Empire to grow big enough to present a credible threat, which would make Americans submit to massive defense spending on the MI Complex and an increase in government power. That's also why he wouldn't let MacArthur weaken Red China.

Typically, you'll only have the flunkies of the plutocracy in the John Birch Society say Truman did all that because he was a Communist agent. But there really isn't any difference between being an agent of the foreign enemies of America and an agent of the 1%, is there?

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 02:50 PM
It's not just a time factor, it's a "times" factor. JFK was a huge womanizer, yet reporters of the day looked the other way. Not just for him, but for all politicians. It was the times.

Things began to change in the late 60s as society evolved and changed as exemplified by the Pentagon Papers, Watergate and television news changing from a function to a business.

Screwing a movie star isn't the same thing as covert ops. You and I both know this. They have better surveillance tech for whistleblowers than ever before. It's why Snowden is so weird and why he had to run immediately.

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 02:58 PM
It's a two way street GA. Often times the conspiracy theorists are not willing to have a civil discussion. Instead they resort to name calling and assigning pejorative labels of their own to anyone who disagrees with them. :wink:

It's different when people present actual credible evidence, in a polite manner. But with many conspiracy theorists, this simply isn't the case. They basically invite criticism, thereby hurting their own "cause".

I don't disagree, countryboy. We're all human, all prone to the same mistakes.

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 03:01 PM
Just because the government did bad things doesn't mean it is responsible for 911 and the marathon bombing. Conspiracy theorist is a mental disorder.

I didn't say it was responsible for 9/11 or the Boston Marathon Bombing. I gave specific examples with sources about the conspiracies I'm referring to.

The fact that many conspiracy theories have been proven correct shows that "conspiracy theorist" is not a mental disorder, as much as you may want it to be. It's just like any other theory. Ask a question, do background research, construct a hypothesis, test your hypothesis, analyze the data and draw a conclusion, and communicate your results. It's the scientific method, which has proven that sometimes, the government does engage in conspiracy.

The Sage of Main Street
12-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Agreed. It's no coincidence that the declassified projects like MKULTRA were picked as examples instead of the Moon Landing Hoax or 9/11 Truther theories. What about Building 7 again?

Yes, conspiracies happen, but they are often revealed just as MKULTRA was revealed, the Tuskegee Experiment and the Manhattan Project were revealed. That does not legitimize the arguments put forth by "conspiracy theorists" who habitually disregard any facts, science or other evidence contrary to their conspiracy delusions. Yes, most of these people are, indeed, delusional in that particular area even if they function quite well in other areas.

Who is funding them? Why don't you notice how expensive their sites and power-point materials are? Not important?

You're wrong that they "function well in other areas." People like that can never make enough money to build up their blogs. Maybe you believe that the Mel Gibson character in Conspiracy Theory could actually have funded his expensive layout. He was a cab driver. He would have had to be totally funded by some plutocrat who somehow benefited from Conspiracy Theories

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 03:03 PM
Would you call it a conspiracy theory or just politics as usual the way this administration has covered up everything from the Benghazi affair, to the IRS debacle, to the Fast and Furious scandal and to the sweet heart deals to get obummercare to pass through congress etc.?

Those all qualify as "conspiracy" ("a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal" - Merriam-Webster), so yes.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 03:03 PM
Screwing a movie star isn't the same thing as covert ops. You and I both know this. They have better surveillance tech for whistleblowers than ever before. It's why Snowden is so weird and why he had to run immediately.

I agree about movie stars, but the 1960s was a watershed for our culture which had previously blindly trusted our government and, afterwards, insisted on "sunshine" laws and watch groups.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 03:06 PM
The government is totally incapable of pulling off something like the Truthie version. The people in power and their flunkies didn't get there because of their talent. The whole society is upside down, but even if the successful were superior, no human beings are smart enough to pull off what they are accused of doing. It's like saying that the JEWS bribed people to say that they witnessed the Holocaust and to lie about the population of the European Jews before and after the war, etc.

They get there by being the pawns of global banks and corporations.

I mean, you don't know if they could pull it off or not. We do know that they've planned false flags on our country before, lied about the second Gulf of Tonkin attack, etc.

I mean, they might not have planned it per-say, but might have gotten information of an attack and chose to let it happen. Who knows. But the possibility is there.

A repeat offender with a motive and an opportunity to commit said crime is a primary suspect.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 03:08 PM
I agree about movie stars, but the 1960s was a watershed for our culture which had previously blindly trusted our government and, afterwards, insisted on "sunshine" laws and watch groups.

What about the 1980s? Iran Contra was the 1980s and again, the files got shredded.

Adelaide
12-12-2013, 03:09 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that the government screws up or behaves in such a way that is contradictory to their public statements. I'm sure some "conspiracy" theories are true, or maybe simply just on the right path.

That said, some conspiracy theories are simply crazy. Roswell is a good example for me. The 9/11 conspiracies irritate me a bit even though I don't fully believe the Pentagon part - maybe it's because I just don't think a government like the US government, could be involved in such a deadly attack on it's own citizens.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 03:10 PM
The government has killed more US citizens and done more nefarious, heinous things to US citizens than Al Queda.

Why are we supposed to trust them again? I get lulz when people get scared of Iran and the like. They've never hurt us, the people trying to fuck with them have, though.

The Xl
12-12-2013, 03:11 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that the government screws up or behaves in such a way that is contradictory to their public statements. I'm sure some "conspiracy" theories are true, or maybe simply just on the right path.

That said, some conspiracy theories are simply crazy. Roswell is a good example for me. The 9/11 conspiracies irritate me a bit even though I don't fully believe the Pentagon part - maybe it's because I just don't think a government like the US government, could be involved in such a deadly attack on it's own citizens.

Northwoods and Tonkin are far more than screw ups. It's evil on a mass scale.

Cigar
12-12-2013, 03:12 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that the government screws up or behaves in such a way that is contradictory to their public statements. I'm sure some "conspiracy" theories are true, or maybe simply just on the right path.

That said, some conspiracy theories are simply crazy. Roswell is a good example for me. The 9/11 conspiracies irritate me a bit even though I don't fully believe the Pentagon part - maybe it's because I just don't think a government like the US government, could be involved in such a deadly attack on it's own citizens.

Speaking of screw-ups ... Ooops

Air strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake: officials


Fifteen people on their way to a wedding in Yemen were killed in an air strike after their party was mistaken for an al Qaeda convoy, local security officials said on Thursday.

The officials did not identify the plane in the strike in central al-Bayda province, but tribal and local media sources said that it was a drone.

"An air strike missed its target and hit a wedding car convoy, ten people were killed immediately and another five who were injured died after being admitted to the hospital," one security official said.

Five more people were injured, the officials said.

The United States has stepped up drone strikes as part of a campaign against Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), regarded by Washington as the most active wing of the militant network.

Yemen, AQAP's main stronghold, is among a handful of countries where the United States acknowledges using drones, although it does not comment on the practice.

Human Rights Watch said in a detailed report in August that U.S. missile strikes, including armed drone attacks, have killed dozens of civilians in Yemen.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-yemen-strike-idUSBRE9BB10O20131212

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 03:15 PM
I'd just like to thank patrickt and Ravi for being so kind as to prove the point in my OP. patrickt especially, with whom the Irony is strong, for quoting the very portion of my OP that says people will respond to my thread with insults and damnation, and then following that quote with insults and damnation.

Thank you, guys :D

The Xl
12-12-2013, 03:17 PM
Speaking of screw-ups ... Ooops

Air strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake: officials


Fifteen people on their way to a wedding in Yemen were killed in an air strike after their party was mistaken for an al Qaeda convoy, local security officials said on Thursday.

The officials did not identify the plane in the strike in central al-Bayda province, but tribal and local media sources said that it was a drone.

"An air strike missed its target and hit a wedding car convoy, ten people were killed immediately and another five who were injured died after being admitted to the hospital," one security official said.

Five more people were injured, the officials said.

The United States has stepped up drone strikes as part of a campaign against Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), regarded by Washington as the most active wing of the militant network.

Yemen, AQAP's main stronghold, is among a handful of countries where the United States acknowledges using drones, although it does not comment on the practice.

Human Rights Watch said in a detailed report in August that U.S. missile strikes, including armed drone attacks, have killed dozens of civilians in Yemen.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-yemen-strike-idUSBRE9BB10O20131212

Obama doin' work, killing civilians and shit.

Ravi
12-12-2013, 03:20 PM
I'd just like to thank @patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) and Ravi for being so kind as to prove the point in my OP. patrickt especially, with whom the Irony is strong, for quoting the very portion of my OP that says people will respond to my thread with insults and damnation, and then following that quote with insults and damnation.

Thank you, guys :D
Do you believe the government was responsible for carrying out 911 and/or the marathon bombing?

Cigar
12-12-2013, 03:24 PM
Obama doin' work, killing civilians and shit.

So Obama did Kill OBL and President Carter flies Helicopters on Recuse Missions :rollseyes:

The Xl
12-12-2013, 03:27 PM
So Obama did Kill OBL and President Carter flies Helicopters on Recuse Missions :rollseyes:

What does that have to do with him killing civilians?

And what proof is there that we killed Bin Laden anyway? Got rid of the body mighty fast. Might have just killed some cat that looked like him.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 03:35 PM
Do you believe the government was responsible for carrying out 911 and/or the marathon bombing?

Oh jeez...

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 03:36 PM
If I thought that we carried out 911 and I wasted 10 years of my life I'd lose my shit. I do think that our super-secret training we gave AQ back in the day led to 911.

That was a conspiracy to keep quiet we were training and engaging in the manipulation of foreign affairs.

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 04:31 PM
Do you believe the government was responsible for carrying out 911 and/or the marathon bombing?

No.

iustitia
12-12-2013, 04:50 PM
I'll be uploading FDR's corporate connections as well as his, Wall Street's, and central banking's connections to rearming Germany and setting up shop there post-WWI to create captive markets and to profit off of the intentionally devalued German economy.

Mister D
12-12-2013, 04:55 PM
I'll be uploading FDR's corporate connections as well as his, Wall Street's, and central banking's connections to rearming Germany and setting up shop there post-WWI to create captive markets and to profit off of the intentionally devalued German economy.

When you do, try and make sense of it all. Rearmament and captive markets don't make sense together.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 06:27 PM
What about the 1980s? Iran Contra was the 1980s and again, the files got shredded.

There's a difference between a "conspiracy" to wage war on the commies behind the back of a Democratic Congress and the Navy shooting down TWA 800. One is a conspiracy, albeit slightly illegal (shout out to Col. North!) and the other is a whacky conspiracy theory.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 06:28 PM
There's a difference between a "conspiracy" to wage war on the commies behind the back of a Democratic Congress and the Navy shooting down TWA 800. One is a conspiracy, albeit slightly illegal (shout out to Col. North!) and the other is a whacky conspiracy theory.

I think the Navy accidentally shot it and covered it up. My father said it was a missile from the tape that night. He's an asshole, but he's usually right about that stuff.

911...naw, that was AQ.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 06:30 PM
What does that have to do with him killing civilians?

And what proof is there that we killed Bin Laden anyway? Got rid of the body mighty fast. Might have just killed some cat that looked like him.

Where do you think Osama bin Laden is hiding or do you think it was all a CIA plot to shift blame away from the Gubmint about blowing up the WTC with super-secret CIA assassins and drones?

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 06:33 PM
Where do you think Osama bin Laden is hiding...?

South America, along with Hitler, Elvis, Tupac, Michael Jackson, Ronald Reagan, Dick Nixon, and now Nelson Mandela.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 06:38 PM
I think the Navy accidentally shot it and covered it up. My father said it was a missile from the tape that night. He's an asshole, but he's usually right about that stuff.

911...naw, that was AQ.Every sailor aboard a ship can hear a Sea Sparrow being launched. Also, there were a lot of civilians involved in the analysis of the debris. Hiding the fact a missile brought it down rather than the empty center tank blowing up would be as obvious as the difference between a Humvee being blown up from the inside by a Claymore and one hitting a 105mm shell IED buried in the road.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 06:39 PM
South America, along with Hitler, Elvis, Tupac, Michael Jackson, Ronald Reagan, Dick Nixon, and now Nelson Mandela.

I knew it!

Green Arrow
12-12-2013, 06:45 PM
(Just to clarify, lest anybody take it seriously - I was kidding)

Mini Me
12-12-2013, 07:06 PM
Operation Midnight (http://www.sfweekly.com/2012-03-14/news/cia-lsd-wayne-ritchie-george-h-white-mk-ultra/)?




That's not the worst of them. It's not without merit, it's not patently ridiculous. When we do things like this or spend money trying to get people to blow up goats with their minds, we set the stage for honest questioning.

Ken Keysey, author of "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest", and movie, and leader of the Magic Bus trip, was a victim of MK ULTRA. The CIA pushed the whole acid craze, and recruited Owsley Stanley, the acid guru and Dr. Timothy Leary, and The Gratefull Dead to further its use, to turn young people into Zombies.

Charles Manson was a Scientologist, member of the Process Church cult, a student of Anton LeVey of the Church of Satan and was a hit man for a mysterious killer cult along with Son of Sam & others.

Mini Me
12-12-2013, 08:09 PM
These theories are planted by the very people they pretend to oppose. 9/11 Truthies only created sympathy for Bush.

I hate this even more because I am not allowed to claim, for example, that Leftists are unconscious agents of the Right Wing just because there is no public Conspiracy Theory to back me up. People are tricked into thinking that if not even Conspiracy Theorists will come up with that accusation, it must really be whacko.

Leftists are in denial about who they really work for because if you accuse them of being dupes, they refuse to even answer the indisputable logic of how their policies benefit the Right Wing. Lying to themselves about what really motivates them is the greatest insincerity of all, so I don't care if they don't consciously work for the plutocrats. Guilt is judged by results, not intentions.

"If you want to know the intent, just look at the results"

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 08:38 PM
(Just to clarify, lest anybody take it seriously - I was kidding)

Good call to clarify on a conspiracy theorist thread!

iustitia
12-12-2013, 08:46 PM
Let me just say that there's more information to cover than I can write. So first I'll share this-

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Antony C. Sutton-
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler-5.pdf
Wall Street and FDR
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_FDR-3.pdf

Now here's some files by me. Long story short-

FDR was a corporate raider and not only used his corporate connections before and after his marriage expanded his influence here at home, but he used his United European Investors to rape Germany and profit off its manipulated currency. 15,000 US was worth 100,000,000 German marks. This wasn't by accident. German Chancilor Wilhelm Cuno hyperinflated the money supply. He then resigned and went right back to HAPAG. Wait, back up-

United European Investors included Wilhelm Cuno (Chancellor of Germany and formerly of HAPAG the world's largest shipping company), Max Warburg (warburg family of bankers, founder of HAPAG, and Board of IG Farben), Baron John Gossler (co-founder of HAPAG). They invested 15,000 dollars which was equal to 100,000,000 German marks. They were investing in General Electric, Anilin Dye Works who made poison gas, 3 chemical companies, steel and shipyards and other subsidiaries of IG Farben. American IG Farben was the largest German corporation. And guess who was at Versailles as representatives to discuss the future after WWI? The leaders of the world? Nope, but these companies were. General Electric and Standard Oil were both involved in the New Deal and Hitler's New Order.

HAPAG was the largest shipping company, and if labor laws and regulations teach us anything it's that monopolies can survive them but smaller competition cannot. HAPAG sent two of its men into the highest offices of the German government. They weren't alone. GE's Germany General Electric branch AEG also had its hands on the government. Only the rich profit off of bad economies, which is exactly what happened with this corporate collusion. FDR was openly offended at the notion that he lost money, openly declaring he profited off of Germany. I won't get into the Swope Plan or National Recovery Administration supporting monopolies here at home. BTW, we also "invested" in Russia. Anyway, if anyone's interested in some reading-

FDR, WIB, HAPAG & GE, Germany and Russia... The first documents are summaries of all the corporate connections of FDR, Wall Street and Hitler. After that are chronologically ordered news stories conveniently forgotten by history. I also included an excerpt from the book The Vampire Economy: Doing Business under Fascism, as I think it'll open a few eyes about today's situation.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197022/The-Swope-Plan
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197021/The-Great-Depression-and-the-New-Deal
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197020/The-Vampire-Economy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196479/FDR-WWII-Corporate-Connections-to-Germany-Fall-2012
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196473/FDR-Hitler-Corporate-Fascist-Connections
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196481/FDR-Condensed

http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196475/FDR-Roosevelt-Delano-Wedding-10-8-1880
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196468/FDR-FA-Delano-Reserve-Board-8-5-1914
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197028/WWI-American-Capital-in-Russia
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197019/GE-List-of-People-at-Versailles-5-4-1919
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197026/Versailles-German-Reparations-Clearing-House-5-18-1919-p83
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196467/FDR-Eugene-Delano-Estate-4-11-1920
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197016/GE-German-Industry-Proposal-to-Repay-Loans-Rathenau-2-11-1921
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196477/FDR-UEI-Arming-Germany-12-15-1922
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196469/FDR-Germanic-Trust-Formed-7-11-1927
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196470/FDR-Germanic-Trust-in-Federal-Reserve-1-31-1928
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197015/GE-German-Ge-and-International-Ge-8-2-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197014/GE-General-Electric-in-Big-German-Deal-8-3-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191194965/FDR-Cuno-Talks-of-Build-Up-of-German-Trade-11-12-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196459/FDR-Cuno-to-Serve-on-New-Reich-Council-10-27-1931
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196474/FDR-Made-Profit-From-German-Investments-10-15-1932


I also recommend Antony Sutton's books-
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution
Wall Street and FDR
Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler
Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development (three volumes)
The Best Enemy Money Can Buy

KC
12-12-2013, 09:07 PM
Let me just say that there's more information to cover than I can write. So first I'll share this-

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Antony C. Sutton-
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler-5.pdf
Wall Street and FDR
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_FDR-3.pdf

Now here's some files by me. Long story short-

FDR was a corporate raider and not only used his corporate connections before and after his marriage expanded his influence here at home, but he used his United European Investors to rape Germany and profit off its manipulated currency. 15,000 US was worth 100,000,000 German marks. This wasn't by accident. German Chancilor Wilhelm Cuno hyperinflated the money supply. He then resigned and went right back to HAPAG. Wait, back up-

United European Investors included Wilhelm Cuno (Chancellor of Germany and formerly of HAPAG the world's largest shipping company), Max Warburg (warburg family of bankers, founder of HAPAG, and Board of IG Farben), Baron John Gossler (co-founder of HAPAG). They invested 15,000 dollars which was equal to 100,000,000 German marks. They were investing in General Electric, Anilin Dye Works who made poison gas, 3 chemical companies, steel and shipyards and other subsidiaries of IG Farben. American IG Farben was the largest German corporation. And guess who was at Versailles as representatives to discuss the future after WWI? The leaders of the world? Nope, but these companies were. General Electric and Standard Oil were both involved in the New Deal and Hitler's New Order.

HAPAG was the largest shipping company, and if labor laws and regulations teach us anything it's that monopolies can survive them but smaller competition cannot. HAPAG sent two of its men into the highest offices of the German government. They weren't alone. GE's Germany General Electric branch AEG also had its hands on the government. Only the rich profit off of bad economies, which is exactly what happened with this corporate collusion. FDR was openly offended at the notion that he lost money, openly declaring he profited off of Germany. I won't get into the Swope Plan or National Recovery Administration supporting monopolies here at home. BTW, we also "invested" in Russia. Anyway, if anyone's interested in some reading-

FDR, WIB, HAPAG & GE, Germany and Russia... The first documents are summaries of all the corporate connections of FDR, Wall Street and Hitler. After that are chronologically ordered news stories conveniently forgotten by history. I also included an excerpt from the book The Vampire Economy: Doing Business under Fascism, as I think it'll open a few eyes about today's situation.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197022/The-Swope-Plan
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197021/The-Great-Depression-and-the-New-Deal
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197020/The-Vampire-Economy
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196479/FDR-WWII-Corporate-Connections-to-Germany-Fall-2012
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196473/FDR-Hitler-Corporate-Fascist-Connections
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196481/FDR-Condensed

http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196475/FDR-Roosevelt-Delano-Wedding-10-8-1880
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196468/FDR-FA-Delano-Reserve-Board-8-5-1914
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197028/WWI-American-Capital-in-Russia
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197019/GE-List-of-People-at-Versailles-5-4-1919
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197026/Versailles-German-Reparations-Clearing-House-5-18-1919-p83
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196467/FDR-Eugene-Delano-Estate-4-11-1920
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197016/GE-German-Industry-Proposal-to-Repay-Loans-Rathenau-2-11-1921
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196477/FDR-UEI-Arming-Germany-12-15-1922
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196469/FDR-Germanic-Trust-Formed-7-11-1927
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196470/FDR-Germanic-Trust-in-Federal-Reserve-1-31-1928
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197015/GE-German-Ge-and-International-Ge-8-2-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191197014/GE-General-Electric-in-Big-German-Deal-8-3-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191194965/FDR-Cuno-Talks-of-Build-Up-of-German-Trade-11-12-1929
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196459/FDR-Cuno-to-Serve-on-New-Reich-Council-10-27-1931
http://www.scribd.com/doc/191196474/FDR-Made-Profit-From-German-Investments-10-15-1932


I also recommend Antony Sutton's books-
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution
Wall Street and FDR
Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler
Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development (three volumes)
The Best Enemy Money Can Buy

Wow. You find a lot of the stuff that I've looked for but never been able to find. Thanks for posting!

bladimz
12-12-2013, 09:11 PM
I didn't read thru the entire thread here, but i do want to say that there's a difference between a cover-up and a conspiracy. A conspiracy will almost always include a cover-up. But a cover-up can and often is used in the event of a gov't fuck-up.

As for 9/11: I don't buy the idea that the US government actually planned the attacks, but i will definitely accept the possibility that they were aware that some kind of attack was imminent. I believe that they have been complicit.

Part of the problem that a lot of people have with the idea of a government-related conspiracy: they won't consider that the government would ever do such horrible, evil things, because that means that the country that they've lived in, pledged allegiance to, and whose flag they revered, isn't the country they thought it was. That means that they've been played. That means it changes everything: their patriotism isn't the blind kind anymore. Questions arise where they didn't before...

That's one good reason why people don't want to consider conspiracies.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 09:49 PM
Part of the problem is the demonization of groups as if it was an entity unto itself. "The Military". "The Government". "The Jews". "The Global Oligarchy". These groups are really hundreds of smaller groups composed of thousands, if not millions of people.

"The Military" isn't some Hollywood fantasy run by General Jack D. Ripper. It's an organization that is changing every time one of 1.5 million active duty members retires and a new recruit signs up. The same goes for the 2.9 million government employees who collectively contribute to the functioning of our Federal government.

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/total-government-employment-since-1962/


There should be no doubt there are malevolent people in the world, but there should also be no doubt there are a lot of good people in the world. I think many times more are good than not. Some stuff can slide, but if something goes too far, someone will report it. This thread talks about conspiracies and "the Government" hiding shit, but most of the "conspiracies" listed were revealed by this same government.

In other instances, it was people working for an organization that leaks the info. Before Snowden there was Mark Felt aka "Deep Throat". Before him, Danial Ellsberg. There have been hundreds of whistleblowers in both government, the military, the corporate world, religions, etc.

Edmund Burke was correct; "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

History has proven time and time again that there are many good men willing to stand up against evil no matter where it is. It's this truism of humanity which tells me the "evil" the conspiracy theorists see in "the Government", "the Military" or any other group cannot exist as they see it.

iustitia
12-12-2013, 10:03 PM
Burke didn't actually say that. The quote is apocrypha.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 10:08 PM
It's not "the military" but if someone said "ONR" or "DARPA" then they're probably dead on. Scientists are weird dudes who cause trouble. :D

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 10:17 PM
It's not "the military" but if someone said "ONR" or "DARPA" then they're probably dead on. Scientists are weird dudes who cause trouble. :D

Those fuckers!

I like DARPA. They come up with a lot of really cool stuff.

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/TTO/Programs/

shaarona
12-12-2013, 10:21 PM
I have difficulties with intelligent people plugging their ears and closing their eyes and believing that "it's all in the past", as if we'd never do that now--especially when each day we find out more and more shit they've done on the NSA thing that's contradicted itself.

Operation Ajax was secret or was it just secret in the US?

BTW, the Mossadeeg wasn't interested in nationalizing the oil companies... He wanted Iran to get a 50-50 share oil oil revenues... like KSA was getting from ARAMCO.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 10:22 PM
Those fuckers!

I like DARPA. They come up with a lot of really cool stuff.

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/TTO/Programs/

They come up with very cool stuff. Very very expensive cool stuff while we can't get fucking water in a desert but hey...its more important that they play at creating Harry Potter invisibility cloaks.

KC
12-12-2013, 10:25 PM
Operation Ajax was secret or was it just secret in the US?

BTW, the Mossadeeg wasn't interested in nationalizing the oil companies... He wanted Iran to get a 50-50 share oil oil revenues... like KSA was getting from ARAMCO.

No, the United States tried to broker a 50-50 deal. Both AIOC and Iran refused. Nationalization was popular.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 10:34 PM
They come up with very cool stuff. Very very expensive cool stuff while we can't get fucking water in a desert but hey...its more important that they play at creating Harry Potter invisibility cloaks.

It wasn't DARPA's fault the government contractors hired by fat cat politicians were too busy counting their millions to send you a couple bottles of tap water.

...and, yes, that is most definitely fucked up that our society sends our nation's men and women into situations without tools and supplies to do the job.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 10:39 PM
It wasn't DARPA's fault the government contractors hired by fat cat politicians were too busy counting their millions to send you a couple bottles of tap water.

...and, yes, that is most definitely fucked up that our society sends our nation's men and women into situations without tools and supplies to do the job.

DARPA is a product of fat cats at Lockheed, Dyncorp, Raytheon, GE, etc telling the government what it could possibly buy and Generals remembering being kids saying, "Yes, we need that"

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Operation Ajax was secret or was it just secret in the US?

A lot of Americans, including my nearly 58 year old ass, weren't even born when the 1953 Iranian coup took place. While I think it is important to follow George Santayana's advice on history, to imply that the US of 1953 and the US of 2013 are identical is as accurate as saying Egypt or Saudi Arabia is identical today as they were 60 years ago.

countryboy
12-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Let's have THE DISCUSSION then @countryboy (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=452).

Why not try it instead of saying who or what conspiracy theorists are? This isn't about conspiracy theorists, to attack them is not addressing the OP. It's about why they question things.
What discussion are you talking about exactly?

I didn't attack anyone. And my post was right on topic. Perhaps you should read the OP again. :wink:

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 10:43 PM
DARPA is a product of fat cats at Lockheed, Dyncorp, Raytheon, GE, etc telling the government what it could possibly buy and Generals remembering being kids saying, "Yes, we need that"

R&D is always expensive. No doubt you found your job easier with GPS, lightweight radios and night vision goggles. I didn't have any of that stuff in my day and my day was only a little over 20 years ago. DARPA helped make that change.

One reason American forces are able to do so much with so few is due to a combination of superior training and superior equipment. Both of those take a lot of money.

Codename Section
12-12-2013, 10:53 PM
R&D is always expensive. No doubt you found your job easier with GPS, lightweight radios and night vision goggles. I didn't have any of that stuff in my day and my day was only a little over 20 years ago. DARPA helped make that change.

One reason American forces are able to do so much with so few is due to a combination of superior training and superior equipment. Both of those take a lot of money.


It's not worth our budget, our debt, our children's debt, etc to keep up the levels of research. We have the largest military in the world, our budget is that of all the other countries combined. We could slash it by 30% and do less cool shit and still have neat gear.

Max Rockatansky
12-12-2013, 10:57 PM
It's not worth our budget, our debt, our children's debt, etc to keep up the levels of research. We have the largest military in the world, our budget is that of all the other countries combined. We could slash it by 30% and do less cool shit and still have neat gear.

We can and certainly should throttle back. Many projects can become joint efforts with allies to save money. 30% seems like a reasonable goal. My only caution would be to phase it in over time, say 10 years.

shaarona
12-12-2013, 11:13 PM
No, the United States tried to broker a 50-50 deal. Both AIOC and Iran refused. Nationalization was popular.

Are you sure? I remember the adults talking about it at the time.. and about the overblown concern about the Soviets.

KC
12-12-2013, 11:16 PM
Are you sure? I remember the adults talking about it at the time.. and about the overblown concern about the Soviets.

That's what I read from historians who looked at interviews of Mossadegh. I haven't looked at any of the primary source material myself, like I have for Operation PBSuccess.

shaarona
12-12-2013, 11:19 PM
That's what I read from historians who looked at interviews of Mossadegh. I haven't looked at any of the primary source material myself, like I have for Operation PBSuccess.

I just can't remember any threats of nationalization in the 1950s... except that Mossadeeg would nationalize if he didn't get a decent revenue share. 50-50 was pretty common by 1951.

KC
12-12-2013, 11:28 PM
I just can't remember any threats of nationalization in the 1950s... except that Mossadeeg would nationalize if he didn't get a decent revenue share. 50-50 was pretty common by 1951.

If it was all a bargaining ploy I can't imagine that he wouldn't have caved. Mossadegh's party was nationalist-- giving up nationalization would have ruined his career.

shaarona
12-12-2013, 11:30 PM
If it was all a bargaining ploy I can't imagine that he wouldn't have caved. Mossadegh's party was nationalist-- giving up nationalization would have ruined his career.

True..... But a 50 cent share would have done a lot for the Iranian people.

The Brits were paying 16 %.

KC
12-12-2013, 11:32 PM
True..... But a 50 cent share would have done a lot for the Iranian people.

The Brits were paying 16 %.

I agree that 50per cent would have been quite the outcome to walk away with for the American people. Maybe Mosaddegh was simply too principled for any pragmatic solution. That's how I think of him, but I know that some historians have a different view. I'm much too sympathetic to him.

shaarona
12-13-2013, 12:08 AM
I agree that 50per cent would have been quite the outcome to walk away with for the American people. Maybe Mosaddegh was simply too principled for any pragmatic solution. That's how I think of him, but I know that some historians have a different view. I'm much too sympathetic to him.

I am sympathetic towards him as well.. The Brits were not in good shape after WW2.. As a little piece of the puzzle, Tapline had just been completed in 1952 (I think) and Oil from Arabia was fueling the Marshall Plan.

Gerrard Winstanley
12-13-2013, 02:38 AM
Who cares? Kuwait always belonged to Iraq (Mesopotamia). This just distracts from the lack of moral justification for the Gulf War. You also never hear from its false-flag critics that it was designed to raise oil prices because Saddam was producing beyond the illegal cartel's quotas in order to fight Iran, which was a far greater enemy of America.
The same enemy the Reagan administration was dead-set on arming (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962858,00.html)? Or was that a no-strings type of arrangement?

shaarona
12-13-2013, 06:39 AM
Who cares? Kuwait always belonged to Iraq (Mesopotamia). This just distracts from the lack of moral justification for the Gulf War. You also never hear from its false-flag critics that it was designed to raise oil prices because Saddam was producing beyond the illegal cartel's quotas in order to fight Iran, which was a far greater enemy of America.

Actually NO.. Iraq's oil infrastructure was in terrible shape and production was down. His OPEC quota was being met by Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

In 1997-1998 Saddam was begging the US and UN to lift sanctions on oil matters so Haliburton could come in and repair and update his infrastructure.

jillian
12-13-2013, 06:40 AM
Actually NO.. Iraq's oil infrastructure was in terrible shape and production was down. His OPEC quota was being met by Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

In 1997-1998 Saddam was begging the US and UN to lift sanctions on oil matters so Haliburton could come in and repair and update his infrastructure.

do you have a link for that shaarona? because it isn't consistent with anything i'd heard.

shaarona
12-13-2013, 06:45 AM
do you have a link for that @shaarona (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=434)? because it isn't consistent with anything i'd heard.

I will look for a link.

Cheney was hired by Haliburton to lobby his government connections to lift sanctions on Iraq, Libya and the Stans at the end of the Clinton administration... He failed..

Iraq's established reserves were being so mismanaged that they were right on the verge of being ruined forever. The money to set things right was $20 billion.. which is huge... but a whole lot less than the cost of the war.

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4ea1cabf69bedd007a00002a/theoildrum-images.png

jillian
12-13-2013, 06:47 AM
I will look for a link.

Cheney was hired by Haliburton to lobby his government connections to lift sanctions on Iraq, Libya and the Stans at the end of the Clinton administration... He failed..

Iraq's established reserves were being so mismanaged that they were right on the verge of being ruined forever. The money to set things right was $20 billion.. which is huge... but a whole lot less than the cost of the war.

i'm not arguing cheney's influence with respect to haliburton or the fact that he was enriched by his little war of adventure.

i'm asking about the assertions regarding iraq.

shaarona
12-13-2013, 09:17 AM
i'm not arguing cheney's influence with respect to haliburton or the fact that he was enriched by his little war of adventure.

i'm asking about the assertions regarding iraq.

I have been following this since about 1998.. but I am hard pressed to find a good link ...

I think Iraq was producing about 4 million BPD.. before the first Iraq war... And that number fell dramatically. They were selling some oil secretly but they were completely unmetered for oil flow. Once the second war started they had a lot of sabotage.. I stopped counting at 600 events.

Properly managed and funded Iraq could easily export 7 million BPD.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-23/iraq-to-boost-oil-output-this-year-as-asian-demand-strengthens.html

Alyosha
12-13-2013, 09:59 AM
What is it that the "liberals" say about gun control and background checks; past behavior is indicative of future?

Perhaps we ought remove the government's monopoly on force since it failed a background check.

Max Rockatansky
12-13-2013, 11:22 AM
The same enemy the Reagan administration was dead-set on arming (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962858,00.html)? Or was that a no-strings type of arrangement?

That was a Hawk missiles for hostages deal. Hawk missiles were mid-range anti-aircraft missiles. Some ammo and aircraft parts were included. It's not like the Lend-Lease we had with both Britain and Mother Russia in WWII.


In some minds the linkage began very early. In July 1985, Israeli businessmen who had been in contact with Iranian officials told Shimon Peres, then Israel's Prime Minister, that they thought a swap of arms for U.S. hostages could be arranged. Peres presumably communicated that information promptly to Ronald Reagan. The story in Jerusalem is that the White House designated Poindexter to look into the idea, and he named North as liaison with Israel. In any case, the Israeli businessmen were authorized by Peres to resume contacts and strike a deal with the Iranians. The executives turned to Adnan Khashoggi, a famed Saudi Arabian wheeler-dealer and an extremely wealthy businessman. He got a long shopping list from Tehran that included Hawk antiaircraft missiles and radar-guidance equipment for them, antitank missiles, and spare parts for jet fighters.Lebanese terrorists influenced by Iran released one of their American captives, the Rev. Benjamin Weir, on Sept. 14, 1985. According to Israeli reports, President Reagan telephoned Peres to thank him for Israel's help in securing Weir's freedom. Five days later Iran got some of the Hawk missiles and guidance equipment that had been on the shopping list relayed through Businessman Khashoggi. They are said to have been delivered by a DC-8 cargo plane that was once owned by a Miami-based air-transport company. The aircraft took off from Tabriz, Iran, disappeared from radar screens over Turkey, made what was supposed to be a "forced landing" in Israel and later returned to Iran by a circuitous route.


Read more: The U.S. and Iran - TIME (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,143828,00.html#ixzz2nNAHKOTs) http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,143828,00.html#ixzz2nNAHKOTs

The Sage of Main Street
12-13-2013, 11:45 AM
They get there by being the pawns of global banks and corporations.

I mean, you don't know if they could pull it off or not. We do know that they've planned false flags on our country before, lied about the second Gulf of Tonkin attack, etc.

I mean, they might not have planned it per se, but might have gotten information of an attack and chose to let it happen. Who knows?

.

I do know that they are too stupid to have pulled it off. I don't balance my insight about their being inferior people in superior positions against their self-serving propaganda about their superiority, which doesn't make sense. Superior people wouldn't have chosen a lazy, low IQ draftdodger like Bush as Commander-in-Chief. His worthlessless revealed what little in the way of talent the 1% had to offer.

By saying they could've chosen "to let it happen," you continue to cover up for their natural incompetence. They had plenty of information predicting it, but were too stupid to understand the clues. On February 23, 1973, the Israelis revealed to the world that the terrorists were discussing hijacking an airplane and using it as a bomb. Yet the Affirmative Action bimbo, Condoleeza Rice, said she had never heard of this tactic. I believe her because she wasn't doing her job. Her focus was limited to what she had been hired for, to re-start the Cold War with Russia. At most she also wanted to start a war with Iraq, which she knew had nothing to do with directing terrorism. That's why she neglected to study the jihad.

The Sage of Main Street
12-13-2013, 11:56 AM
Speaking of screw-ups ... Ooops

Air strike kills 15 civilians in Yemen by mistake: officials


Fifteen people on their way to a wedding in Yemen were killed in an air strike after their party was mistaken for an al Qaeda convoy, local security officials said on Thursday.

The officials did not identify the plane in the strike in central al-Bayda province, but tribal and local media sources said that it was a drone.

"An air strike missed its target and hit a wedding car convoy, ten people were killed immediately and another five who were injured died after being admitted to the hospital," one security official said.



The United States has stepped up drone strikes as part of a campaign against Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), regarded by Washington as the most active wing of the militant network.

Yemen, AQAP's main stronghold, is among a handful of countries where the United States acknowledges using drones, although it does not comment on the practice.

Human Rights Watch said in a detailed report in August that U.S. missile strikes, including armed drone attacks, have killed dozens of civilians in Yemen.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-yemen-strike-idUSBRE9BB10O20131212


After 9/11, an unbrainwashed patriot must conclude that the only good Muzzie is a dead Muzzie. Kill them all and let God sort them out. While we're at it, let's bomb Human Rights Watch. They are nothing but musliculturalist traitors.

The Sage of Main Street
12-13-2013, 12:11 PM
"If you want to know the intent, just look at the results"

Where do these snob Liberals come from and whom do their preaching and screeching wind up benefiting? If it looks like a duck (spoiled spawn of the 1%), walks like a duck (increasing the tyranny of the 1%), but doesn't quack like a duck ("We're Anti-Establishment"), then it's still a duck regardless of what noises it makes.

Of course, sometimes incompetent people create results they don't intend, but not in this case. The false-flag Preppy Progressives are born with so much power that they never have to be competent in order to dominate.

The Sage of Main Street
12-13-2013, 12:25 PM
If it was all a bargaining ploy I can't imagine that he wouldn't have caved. Mossadegh's party was nationalist-- giving up nationalization would have ruined his career.

Self-determination for Muslims determined to destroy us is suicidal. Mossadegh would have been overthrown by a jihadi group. The Iranians proved that when they had a chance to have a democratic revolution against the Shah and chose to have a theocratic one.

At the Battle of Marathon, the Greeks were outnumbered by these backward savages two and a half to one. Fatalities: Greeks 200, Persians 6,000. These people need to be taught that lesson again.

The Sage of Main Street
12-13-2013, 12:38 PM
The same enemy the Reagan administration was dead-set on arming (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962858,00.html)? Or was that a no-strings type of arrangement?

By arming Saddam against the Iranians, President Reagan set the Shiite jihad back 20 years. By letting Saddam produce over his OPEC quotas, President Reagan cut the price in oil to one-third what the previously united cartel was able to gouge us on. This was the only reason for the Reagan economic boom; it had nothing to do with his screwy economic theories.

Reagan's focused and intentionally frightening foreign policy also managed to get our hostages freed, neutralize Libya, get the Russians out of Afghanistan and Eastern Europe, and be the decisive factor in the collapse of Soviet Communism.

KC
12-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Self-determination for Muslims determined to destroy us is suicidal. Mossadegh would have been overthrown by a jihadi group. The Iranians proved that when they had a chance to have a democratic revolution against the Shah and chose to have a theocratic one.

At the Battle of Marathon, the Greeks were outnumbered by these backward savages two and a half to one. Fatalities: Greeks 200, Persians 6,000. These people need to be taught that lesson again.

Mosaddegh certainly did have some enemies among the clerics, but he also had allies among them. Remember that Iran was a different place in 1953 than it was in 1979. Absent the influence of the Shah I'm not so sure Iran would have become so radical.

shaarona
12-13-2013, 12:47 PM
By arming Saddam against the Iranians, President Reagan set the Shiite jihad back 20 years. By letting Saddam produce over his OPEC quotas, President Reagan cut the price in oil to one-third what the previously united cartel was able to gouge us on. This was the only reason for the Reagan economic boom; it had nothing to do with his screwy economic theories.

Reagan's focused and intentionally frightening foreign policy also managed to get our hostages freed, neutralize Libya, get the Russians out of Afghanistan and Eastern Europe, and be the decisive factor in the collapse of Soviet Communism.

Reagan had no control over OPEC quotas.. Don't you remember that in 1986 the ppb was so low that Papa Bush begged OPEC to raise the price because domestic producers in the US were losing their shirts.

Codename Section
12-13-2013, 12:53 PM
Self-determination for Muslims determined to destroy us is suicidal. Mossadegh would have been overthrown by a jihadi group. The Iranians proved that when they had a chance to have a democratic revolution against the Shah and chose to have a theocratic one.

At the Battle of Marathon, the Greeks were outnumbered by these backward savages two and a half to one. Fatalities: Greeks 200, Persians 6,000. These people need to be taught that lesson again.


You're supposed to talk about Spartans in the gay science thread.

Mini Me
12-13-2013, 01:45 PM
Where do these snob Liberals come from and whom do their preaching and screeching wind up benefiting? If it looks like a duck (spoiled spawn of the 1%), walks like a duck (increasing the tyranny of the 1%), but doesn't quack like a duck ("We're Anti-Establishment"), then it's still a duck regardless of what noises it makes.

Of course, sometimes incompetent people create results they don't intend, but not in this case. The false-flag Preppy Progressives are born with so much power that they never have to be competent in order to dominate.

Did you misunderstand my statement?

And since when is our nation run by false flag preppy liberals?

The shadow government is certainly not who you describe, nor is the CIA, or the PNAC Neocon war group, nor the MIC, NSA, DEA, nor the Bilderberger group.

Max Rockatansky
12-13-2013, 02:01 PM
You're supposed to talk about Spartans in the gay science thread.

Along with any other talk about the Greeks.

Mini Me
12-13-2013, 06:18 PM
You're supposed to talk about Spartans in the gay science thread.

"Do you like gladiator movies? Ever been to a Turkish prison?

"Never turn your back on a Greek bearing gifts!

(Not directed at you Code!)

BB-35
12-13-2013, 09:43 PM
By arming Saddam against the Iranians, President Reagan set the Shiite jihad back 20 years. By letting Saddam produce over his OPEC quotas, President Reagan cut the price in oil to one-third what the previously united cartel was able to gouge us on. This was the only reason for the Reagan economic boom; it had nothing to do with his screwy economic theories.

Reagan's focused and intentionally frightening foreign policy also managed to get our hostages freed, neutralize Libya, get the Russians out of Afghanistan and Eastern Europe, and be the decisive factor in the collapse of Soviet Communism.

We 'armed' saddam with Soviet made weapons?

Dr. Who
12-14-2013, 01:37 AM
I think the Navy accidentally shot it and covered it up. My father said it was a missile from the tape that night. He's an asshole, but he's usually right about that stuff.

911...naw, that was AQ.
Who created AQ? That's what's really disconcerting. There are terabytes of info regarding the CIA's involvement with the creation of AQ to take out the Soviets in Afghanistan. I can see why some may not believe that the relationship suddenly ended.

The Sage of Main Street
12-14-2013, 01:32 PM
Mosaddegh certainly did have some enemies among the clerics, but he also had allies among them. Remember that Iran was a different place in 1953 than it was in 1979. Absent the influence of the Shah I'm not so sure Iran would have become so radical.

Iran is the same country as it was when the slimeball Persians almost prevented Western Civilization from being born in Greece. Maybe repeating what I said will get through your closed muslicultural mind; they should have changed into the opposite of the Shah's dictatorship when they overthrew him if they really had a democratic bone in their body politic. By changing into a theocratic dictatorship, they proved that the supposed democracy of Mossadegh wouldn't have lasted and would have turned vast oil wealth over to the eternal enemies of civilization. As usual, Churchill knew what he was doing when he asked the CIA to get rid of this dummy democrat.

The Sage of Main Street
12-14-2013, 01:34 PM
Did you misunderstand my statement?

And since when is our nation run by false flag preppy liberals?

The shadow government is certainly not who you describe, nor is the CIA, or the PNAC Neocon war group, nor the MIC, NSA, DEA, nor the Bilderberger group.

It is not in the shadows, it is right out in the open. But they maim you, tame you, and train you to accept their right to their power.

The Sage of Main Street
12-14-2013, 01:59 PM
Along with any other talk about the Greeks.

Fairyphiles push the idea that the Greeks were gay. It was a temporary upper-class fad. Though the Greeks were forced to tolerate the degeneracy of spoiled brats, just like we are, they treated it a lot like we treat fat people: nothing to condemn people for, but certainly not a role model or anything to be proud of either.

The Sage of Main Street
12-14-2013, 02:07 PM
"Do you like gladiator movies? Ever been to a Turkish prison?

"Never turn your back on a Greek bearing gifts!

(Not directed at you Code!)

If the Gay Agenda keeps being successful in passing its foul ideas onto those in control; in a few decades, re-makes of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Starsky and Hutch, etc. will all show that the partners were gay couples.

Mini Me
12-16-2013, 02:34 PM
If the Gay Agenda keeps being successful in passing its foul ideas onto those in control; in a few decades, re-makes of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Starsky and Hutch, etc. will all show that the partners were gay couples.

"Help! help! The sodomites are coming!"

Gay Elvis impersonators are quite entertaining. And gay leprechauns are The Bomb!

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 08:39 PM
Fairyphiles push the idea that the Greeks were gay. It was a temporary upper-class fad. Though the Greeks were forced to tolerate the degeneracy of spoiled brats, just like we are, they treated it a lot like we treat fat people: nothing to condemn people for, but certainly not a role model or anything to be proud of either.

Are you Greek? That would explain a lot. The Greek flag and the Gay flag share more resemblance than just the first letter.

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Flags/gay-flag-28.gif http://www.dempseys.org.uk/pics/Greece.gif

jillian
12-16-2013, 08:49 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 08:51 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

I do my best, but it has resulted in a few temp bans and other ostracizing actions on a few forums to myself and others.

iustitia
12-16-2013, 09:07 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.Just theorists? What about conspirators?

Peter1469
12-16-2013, 09:08 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

I don't know about that. They can be fun. A lot of times the government asks for them by doing half-assed investigations or even deliberately incomplete investigations. Look at the terms of reference for the investigation. Often they are very limited to direct the investigation towards a certain outcome.

A good example where this occurred and was discovered was the investigation into the Challenger disaster. The Science Channel and the BBC put out a movie about it last month. (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-challenger-review,0,4907715.story#axzz2nh2t9Fsa) It was pretty good.

One of the members of the investigation team was not a team player and did his own investigation- ignoring the terms of reference. The team lead tried to block him. During Congressional testimony the team chief gave the conclusions of the investigation then one of the Congress critters asked the "rouge" doc what he thought. That is when he described the official version and then asked about the elasticity of the external fuel tanks O rings. The team chief said that the contractors informed him that the O rings retained their elasticity below 0 (or whatever temp he said). Then the "rouge" doc pulled a glass full of ice with a piece of the O ring in it. And put a clamp on it. He told the committee that this O ring was cooled to 32 degrees F- about what the temp was the morning Challenger lifted off. Then he took the clamp off the O ring, and it took several seconds for the O ring elasticity to return. Enough time for flaming gas from the center tank to burn into one of the side tanks and cause the explosion of the Challenger. True story. (http://www.feynman.com/) They actually used footage of the Congressional hearing at the end.

Codename Section
12-16-2013, 09:18 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

The ACLU should be laughed at loudly and often?

How about ABC News?

How about the guys who broke Watergate or Iran-Contra?

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 09:52 PM
The ACLU should be laughed at loudly and often?

How about ABC News?

How about the guys who broke Watergate or Iran-Contra?

None of those compare to the Conspiracy Theorists who insist the Moon landings were faked and the George Bush ordered the WTC and Pentagon destroyed with drones.

Mister D
12-16-2013, 09:56 PM
None of those compare to the Conspiracy Theorists who insist the Moon landings were faked and the George Bush ordered the WTC and Pentagon destroyed with drones.

That's just it. There seems to be a wide spectrum.

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 10:04 PM
That's just it. There seems to be a wide spectrum.

Sure, there's some gray in there, but there's also quite a bit of clear black and white reality.

Did we conspire to kill Osama bin Laden? Yes. We knew about it within hours of his death. Was his death faked? Some think so, but if that was true, why hasn't he said anything about it?

Did we conspire to beat the Nazis to building an atomic weapon? Yes. The whole world learned about it on August 6th, 1945.

Conspiracies exist. What is consistent with them is that they are always revealed. The true ones. The fantasy ones just keep being fantasies.

iustitia
12-16-2013, 10:07 PM
Like 40 years of Tuskegee experiments?

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 10:21 PM
Like 40 years of Tuskegee experiments?
The one revealed in 1972? Yes. Exactly.

iustitia
12-16-2013, 10:26 PM
The one revealed in 1972? Yes. Exactly.Yes, the program that was started in 1932.

Max Rockatansky
12-16-2013, 10:55 PM
Yes, the program that was started in 1932.

When the Klan was large, desegregation ruled the land as well as Jim Crow? We were in the middle of a Depression with Prohibition lasting until December 1933. As I read in "Seabiscuit", "When the nation most needed a drink, they couldn't get one" or words to that effect.

Bad days. The 1960s was as close to this nation having an actual revolution, if not civil war since 1775 and 1861. What was most remarkable about it was it's relative bloodlessness compared to the first two events mentioned, yet the change through the country was just as dramatic.

It was the awareness of civil rights that both empowered black people to reveal mistreatment and for people to reveal unConstitutional behavior on the actions of others such as the Tuskegee experiment. Would an event like My Lai or the Pentagon Papers have come to light like they did in 1968 and 1971, respectively for similar events in the early 1950s or early 1940s?

Probably not. It's not like it was a big secret. Lots of people knew blacks were being used as guinea pigs. They just didn't care. It took a cultural change in the psyche of the American public to make them care and, thus, speak out about it along with other maltreatments of people.

Was it a conspiracy? Sure. Is it identical or on par with the conspiracy theorist nonsense that NASA faked the Moon Landings and the Soviets and Chinese are too stupid to know the difference? Does anyone really think we're that good?

iustitia
12-21-2013, 11:57 PM
I think most people here have made the distinction between government criminal conspiracy and fantastical nutjob conspiracy.

But then again, the distinction is hard to make. MKULTRA is a clear example of something documented that is totally batshit crazy. Or Operation Mongoose and the giant Jesus vs Castro. I seriously suggest people read up on Operation Mongoose and the plan to incite the Cubans to revolt against Castro with a huge hologram of Jesus. You can't make this shit up. I'm almost died laughing when I learned about it.

Or how about what we were really doing in Vietnam? I recommend reading The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia by Alfred W McCoy. It's long but worth it.
http://druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/mccoy.pdf

Green Arrow
12-22-2013, 01:26 AM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

In the cases I pointed out in my OP, they were absolutely correct. Why do you think it is acceptable to mock those with whom you disagree, without verifying the truth?

Dr. Who
12-22-2013, 01:50 AM
I think most people here have made the distinction between government criminal conspiracy and fantastical nutjob conspiracy.

But then again, the distinction is hard to make. MKULTRA is a clear example of something documented that is totally batshit crazy. Or Operation Mongoose and the giant Jesus vs Castro. I seriously suggest people read up on Operation Mongoose and the plan to incite the Cubans to revolt against Castro with a huge hologram of Jesus. You can't make this shit up. I'm almost died laughing when I learned about it.

Or how about what we were really doing in Vietnam? I recommend reading The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia by Alfred W McCoy. It's long but worth it.
http://druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/mccoy.pdf
Sometimes fantastical is still true. MKULTRA is pretty fantastical and yet true. Sometimes it's just really hard to believe what lengths the powers that be will go to substantiate a reason for spending vast amounts of money, even if it involves killing thousands. I mean they send troops into parts of the world to lose their lives by the thousands. What's the difference? It's not like they are killing their friends or family. And yet some are making billions off of the armaments and the war machine in general. Follow the money.

Gerrard Winstanley
12-22-2013, 05:28 AM
Sure, there's some gray in there, but there's also quite a bit of clear black and white reality.

Did we conspire to kill Osama bin Laden? Yes. We knew about it within hours of his death. Was his death faked? Some think so, but if that was true, why hasn't he said anything about it?

Did we conspire to beat the Nazis to building an atomic weapon? Yes. The whole world learned about it on August 6th, 1945.

Conspiracies exist. What is consistent with them is that they are always revealed. The true ones. The fantasy ones just keep being fantasies.
That's hardly the law. CIA involvement in the Canadian Caper - the successful rescue of six diplomats from revolutionary Iran - was not disclosed until 1997, twenty years after the actual event.

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 06:52 AM
That's hardly the law. CIA involvement in the Canadian Caper - the successful rescue of six diplomats from revolutionary Iran - was not disclosed until 1997, twenty years after the actual event.

Failures are revealed fairly quickly, but for security reasons, successes take more time. Nonetheless, they are revealed. It's been 50 years since JFK and 44 since the Moon landings yet some still claim both were a conspiracy.

iustitia
01-22-2014, 01:11 PM
Sometimes fantastical is still true. MKULTRA is pretty fantastical and yet true. Sometimes it's just really hard to believe what lengths the powers that be will go to substantiate a reason for spending vast amounts of money, even if it involves killing thousands. I mean they send troops into parts of the world to lose their lives by the thousands. What's the difference? It's not like they are killing their friends or family. And yet some are making billions off of the armaments and the war machine in general. Follow the money.Very true.



I thought I'd share The CIA's Greatest Hits by Mark Zepezauer. It's a small book barely 100 pages, with two pages per section. It's not extremely detailed but it does give a general overview of its subject. I don't agree with the conclusions of every section but most are spot on and I'd recommend getting a copy just as a nice primer on the CIA's history. It's a very quick read and a small book so if you like learning a lot but are short on time this is a good piece. I read the whole thing in an hour and a half and it would behoove others to do the same.

The following is the original edition which contains 42 sections; the new edition contains six extra chapters and is the version I read first-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201491219/The-CIA-s-Greatest-Hits

Alyosha
01-22-2014, 02:40 PM
Failures are revealed fairly quickly, but for security reasons, successes take more time. Nonetheless, they are revealed. It's been 50 years since JFK and 44 since the Moon landings yet some still claim both were a conspiracy.

MK Ultra took 40 years to come to light and some have said that it is still ongoing just changed names. Any attempts to receive FOIA information has been thwarted.

Write the CIA about Bluebird and see what it returns.

Green Arrow
01-22-2014, 02:43 PM
MK Ultra took 40 years to come to light and some have said that it is still ongoing just changed names. Any attempts to receive FOIA information has been thwarted.

Write the CIA about Bluebird and see what it returns.

Speaking of FOIA, I wanted to talk to you about that, Alyosha. I wanted to put in a request for Operation Ajax documents, but am not really clear on how to request declassified documents via FOIA.

The Xl
01-22-2014, 02:57 PM
conspiracy theorists should be laughed at loudly and often.

Nah. But people with the inability to comprehend declassified documents and understand historical events should. Like you, for instance.

Peter1469
01-22-2014, 04:03 PM
Speaking of FOIA, I wanted to talk to you about that, @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863). I wanted to put in a request for Operation Ajax documents, but am not really clear on how to request declassified documents via FOIA.

You have to be very specific with what you want. Offer to pay printing costs.

Ivan88
01-22-2014, 04:24 PM
There are tons of declassified things that show our government is capable of anything. Perhaps 9/11 will be declassified at some point and show American involvement, who knows?

Who knows? The DC boys know. The Israelis know. The Saudis know.
Anybody with an honest mind knows.
But most Americans DON'T WANT TO KNOW.
5465

donttread
01-22-2014, 05:50 PM
It's fairly common these days to use the term "conspiracy theorist" as a pejorative, an insult to imply someone is crazy and believes in wacky things about the government. If one so much as dares to question the government's position on things that happen, such as the Boston Marathon Bombing and 9/11, they are slapped with the "conspiracy theorist" label and get themselves laughed out of more "respectable" company.

Fortunately for everyone, that is a lie, and a laughable one at that. It's nothing more than Orwellian Newspeak. The people who peddle this lie are taking a word, a phrase, that has a set meaning and assigning it with a new meaning. They do this for no other reason than to shut down discussion and damage the credibility of the person speaking.

The simple fact is that the government is made up of individual humans. Individual humans are not perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination. If we agree that humans are not perfect, and the government is made up of humans, then why is it unreasonable to suggest that the government doesn't always do the right thing?

I'll give you an example. If I posted a thread on this very forum alleging that for at least 25 years of American history, the federal government sat by while the CIA conducted a program to develop brainwashing techniques, and part of that program involved dosing American children with LSD and sexually abusing them, what response would I get? People would think I was nuts and use the dreaded pejorative of "conspiracy theorist."

See, I thought the same thing once, until I saw declassified documents from the CIA (http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Project_MKULTRA.html) proving that Project MKULTRA was a real thing. On top of that, I saw Congressional testimony also proving that it actually happened.

Then, of course, I stumbled upon declassified CIA documents about Operation Ajax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax#U.S._role), the CIA plot that destroyed Iranian democracy in the 1950s and led to the eventual rise of the Islamic Revolution that put the Ayatollahs in power and caused our current problems with Iran.

After that, I was shocked to find out that we've been covertly aiding dictators and genocidal maniacs for decades. President Ronald Reagan even broke Congressional law to aid Nicaraguan rebels.

In light of all of this, how can it possibly be considered ridiculous to question the government's actions and morality?

There is conspiracy to a point and the CIA's mission in the ME since the 50's has been destabilization to protect Exxon . Nothing else explains their erratic behavior. However, there is also plain ole unmitigated greed and power lust which has produced the non functional donkapahant

Contrails
01-22-2014, 05:57 PM
In light of all of this, how can it possibly be considered ridiculous to question the government's actions and morality?
Can it be considered ridiculous when all of the reasons for questioning a specific action has been proven wrong?

Max Rockatansky
01-22-2014, 11:03 PM
MK Ultra took 40 years to come to light and some have said that it is still ongoing just changed names. Any attempts to receive FOIA information has been thwarted.

Write the CIA about Bluebird and see what it returns.

Sorry, dear, but there is a big difference between secret programs conducted during the Cold War fighting the Soviet Union and deliberately murdering almost 3000 Americans on 9/11. I'm truly sorry you cannot see the difference.

Green Arrow
01-22-2014, 11:05 PM
Can it be considered ridiculous when all of the reasons for questioning a specific action has been proven wrong?

Certainly, but that has to be done first. I agree that on issues like the 9/11 Truther movement, that there's nothing really there. But there are declassified documents and Congressional testimony supporting some government conspiracy theories.

Green Arrow
01-22-2014, 11:05 PM
Sorry, dear, but there is a big difference between secret programs conducted during the Cold War fighting the Soviet Union and deliberately murdering almost 3000 Americans on 9/11. I'm truly sorry you cannot see the difference.

Where did she say there was no difference?

Peter1469
01-22-2014, 11:08 PM
You have to be very specific with what you want. Offer to pay printing costs.

BUT, all of the stuff that the government really wants hidden is simply contracted out - FIOA doesn't apply to private companies. And neither does Congressional oversight.

Codename Section
01-22-2014, 11:12 PM
Sorry, dear, but there is a big difference between secret programs conducted during the Cold War fighting the Soviet Union and deliberately murdering almost 3000 Americans on 9/11. I'm truly sorry you cannot see the difference.

Shoving a cattle prod up young girl's vaginas in the 1960s and 1970's helped us win the Cold War in the late 80s? Holeee Shit. I didn't know that.

Max Rockatansky
01-22-2014, 11:12 PM
Can it be considered ridiculous when all of the reasons for questioning a specific action has been proven wrong?

Agreed that there is a cross-over point between skepticism and stupidity.

If people want to question our government's actions, I truly encourage it. Skepticism is good. We should be keeping our elected representatives on their toes and answering questions.

Want to spend hours discussing how thousands of Americans conspired to murder thousands of other Americans on 9/11 with drones the size of airliners and rigging several skyscrapers to explode? Count me out of conversations that defy reason.

Want to spend hours discussing how thousands of Americans were so smart they tricked those stupid Russians, Brits, Frenchies and everyone else on the planet by faking a Moon landing and those dumbasses still haven't figured it out? Yeah, count me out of that one too. I'd rather watch Rocky and Bullwinkle trick Boris and Natasha.

http://rufiojones.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/rbwholecrew.jpg

Codename Section
01-22-2014, 11:25 PM
A fake moon landing is not exactly what he's talking about.

Tell me what strategic mission was aided by sexually abusing 8-12 year old girls with prods or dosing up hookers with LSD and watching them have sex through a double mirror--on tax dollars, of course?

How about wasting millions to see if someone could blow up a goat with their mind?

They had money, they were weirdos and sickos, and they spent it on fucked up things--things, I might add none of us would know about if a fucking janitor hadn't peeked at a file and turned them in. We'll never know the full extent because they were shredding with the FBI came for them.

Max Rockatansky
01-22-2014, 11:32 PM
Shoving a cattle prod up young girl's vaginas in the 1960s and 1970's helped us win the Cold War in the late 80s? Holeee Shit. I didn't know that.
Is this your source for that information? http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread857420/pg1

Mind control experiments were all the rage in the 1950s-1970s. They petered out because 1) Human beings aren't robots and 2) there is no such thing as telekinesis, clairvoyance and other forms of psychic powers. What such experiments did provide was great fodder for Hollywood.

Two of my favorite movies about mind control are "The Manchurian Candidate" (the 1962 version) and "Telefon", a 1977 Charles Bronson movie about sleeper Soviet agents programmed to kill with a spoken phrase. You might notice that these movies were made before you and other conspiracy enthusiasts were born.

Telefon (1977): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076804/?ref_=tttr_tr_tt

A Russian officer is sent to USA to try and stop sleeper agents who will mindlessly attack government entities when they hear certain coded words.

The Manchurian Candidate (1962): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/

A former Korean War POW is brainwashed by Communists into becoming a political assassin. But another former prisoner may know how to save him.

Codename Section
01-22-2014, 11:37 PM
Is this your source for that information? http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread857420/pg1



Nope. I downloaded 2000 pages of FOIA documents and read them over a six month period of time after I read an article in the Atlantic by the Unimbomber's brother.

Codename Section
01-22-2014, 11:41 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

The wiki doesn't do it justice, go through the reference materials at the bottom. The NY Times houses the Congressional testimony on it and there should be a link to where all of the remaining and saved program files are.


Project MKUltra is the code name of a U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._government) human research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_engineering) through the CIA's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) Scientific Intelligence Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Scientific_Intelligence). The CIA project was coordinated with the Special Operations Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_Army)) of the Army's Chemical Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Corps).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-1) The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-2) The program engaged in many illegal activities;[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-5) in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-nytimes.com-3)(p74)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-7)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-8) MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD)) and other chemicals, hypnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis), sensory deprivation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation), isolation, verbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse) and sexual abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse), as well as various forms of torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture).[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra#cite_note-9)

Ivan88
01-23-2014, 12:19 AM
Sorry, dear, but there is a big difference between secret programs conducted during the Cold War fighting the Soviet Union and deliberately murdering almost 3000 Americans on 9/11. I'm truly sorry you cannot see the difference.
Lots of people were tortured and killed by the USA in its "cold war". Lots of people died from US atomic testing too.
So why not sacrifice 3000 Americans if it opens the way to a "new American century"?
It's not murder, then, is it?
It's certainly not murder if it was the x who did it.
54785480
5479

Peter1469
01-23-2014, 12:32 AM
Lots of people were tortured and killed by the USA in its "cold war". Lots of people died from US atomic testing too.
So why not sacrifice 3000 Americans if it opens the way to a "new American century"?
It's not murder, then, is it?
It's certainly not murder if it was the x who did it.
54785480
5479


We killed that hot Internet chick? We are bastards!

Max Rockatansky
01-23-2014, 07:47 AM
Certainly, but that has to be done first. I agree that on issues like the 9/11 Truther movement, that there's nothing really there. But there are declassified documents and Congressional testimony supporting some government conspiracy theories.

We're mixing terms. Conspiracies happen. Our nation conspired to make an atomic bomb before the Germans in WWII. Our nation conspired to hunt down and kill Osama bin Laden. All fact. Some facts of which are still classified. My dad was in the 1st Radio Research Company during his second tour in Vietnam. Much of their activities are still classified. A "conspiracy theory" isn't formulating a theory that the 1stRR was flying in China or something. That'd actually be reasonable. A "conspiracy theory" is that they were testing chemtrails on the Laotians for later use to turn American voters into sheep.

If you want to join the aluminum beanie crowd like you-know-who, go for it. Be sure to talk about it with all of your friends and, especially, at work. I'm sure everyone will respect you for it.....or they are victims of chemtrail spraying, amiright?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAPdQUcgoGE

iustitia
02-06-2014, 01:59 PM
@Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) Cthulhu Mainecoons

Would anyone be interested in contributing to an anti-statism Facebook page dedicated to spreading information? I wouldn't ask you to moderate/administrate or anything outside your comfort zones or time constraints. If you'd like to share information with the public from time to time that'd be fine. I want to make a page, not necessarily just about conspiracies but definitely forgotten history, state crimes, philosophy, recommended reading and even the personal opinions of contributors.

It would not be partisan. Conservatives, socialists, constitutionalists, libertarians, minarchists, anarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, objectivists or whatever. Each person could freely present their point of view without retaliation from another. Open debate would be promoted, not discouraged. The common goal would be encouraging open minds and self-education.

Green Arrow
02-06-2014, 02:07 PM
I'd be open to that.

Gerrard Winstanley
02-06-2014, 02:08 PM
@Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) @Cthulhu (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=872) @Mainecoons (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=145)

Would anyone be interested in contributing to an anti-statism Facebook page dedicated to spreading information? I wouldn't ask you to moderate/administrate or anything outside your comfort zones or time constraints. If you'd like to share information with the public from time to time that'd be fine. I want to make a page, not necessarily just about conspiracies but definitely forgotten history, state crimes, philosophy, recommended reading and even the personal opinions of contributors.

It would not be partisan. Conservatives, socialists, constitutionalists, libertarians, minarchists, anarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, objectivists or whatever. Each person could freely present their point of view without retaliation from another. Open debate would be promoted, not discouraged. The common goal would be encouraging open minds and self-education.
Cool idea, but Facebook isn't the place for that type of thing.

Ivan88
02-06-2014, 02:14 PM
Can it be considered ridiculous when all of the reasons for questioning a specific action has been proven wrong?
Depends on what you mean by "proven wrong". In the USA they do not use physical evidence and faithful witnesses, they prefer official pronouncements that we are to believe, if we are patriotic.

In fact, the official way of doing stuff is to ignore all physical evidence and simply pronounce the official dogma that we are all supposed to give lip service to.
5856 Title of book, Chronic Sheep Sheering

Chris
02-06-2014, 02:23 PM
@Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) Cthulhu Mainecoons

Would anyone be interested in contributing to an anti-statism Facebook page dedicated to spreading information? I wouldn't ask you to moderate/administrate or anything outside your comfort zones or time constraints. If you'd like to share information with the public from time to time that'd be fine. I want to make a page, not necessarily just about conspiracies but definitely forgotten history, state crimes, philosophy, recommended reading and even the personal opinions of contributors.

It would not be partisan. Conservatives, socialists, constitutionalists, libertarians, minarchists, anarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, objectivists or whatever. Each person could freely present their point of view without retaliation from another. Open debate would be promoted, not discouraged. The common goal would be encouraging open minds and self-education.



Will have to see, but sounds interesting.

Cthulhu
02-06-2014, 03:02 PM
@Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) @Cthulhu (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=872) @Mainecoons (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=145)

Would anyone be interested in contributing to an anti-statism Facebook page dedicated to spreading information? I wouldn't ask you to moderate/administrate or anything outside your comfort zones or time constraints. If you'd like to share information with the public from time to time that'd be fine. I want to make a page, not necessarily just about conspiracies but definitely forgotten history, state crimes, philosophy, recommended reading and even the personal opinions of contributors.

It would not be partisan. Conservatives, socialists, constitutionalists, libertarians, minarchists, anarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntaryists, objectivists or whatever. Each person could freely present their point of view without retaliation from another. Open debate would be promoted, not discouraged. The common goal would be encouraging open minds and self-education.

Sounds like a good idea. Only one problem...


Cool idea, but Facebook isn't the place for that type of thing.

This. I think a blog or youtube channel would be more effective - or even just linking them here to a dedicated forum where we only post research findings. But that would require a dedicated forum with restricted access to posting and thread creation - something to take up with moderation and Admin about.

But then you join the sea of others doing the same thing. Not opposed to such a project at all really. But the moment people start wandering way off the map about the reptilian race's plan to overthrow the government using radiation from the invisible brown dwarf star beneath the elliptical...

Yeah, I won't be going that far. But if people want to learn more about the bowels of history, and perhaps a different slant on what they have been told their entire life?

Yeah. I'm game.

Peter1469
02-06-2014, 04:43 PM
We have pTF Blogs. Make one and add who you want as an administrator.


Sounds like a good idea. Only one problem...



This. I think a blog or youtube channel would be more effective - or even just linking them here to a dedicated forum where we only post research findings. But that would require a dedicated forum with restricted access to posting and thread creation - something to take up with moderation and Admin about.

But then you join the sea of others doing the same thing. Not opposed to such a project at all really. But the moment people start wandering way off the map about the reptilian race's plan to overthrow the government using radiation from the invisible brown dwarf star beneath the elliptical...

Yeah, I won't be going that far. But if people want to learn more about the bowels of history, and perhaps a different slant on what they have been told their entire life?

Yeah. I'm game.

Cthulhu
02-06-2014, 04:51 PM
We have pTF Blogs. Make one and add who you want as an administrator.

Derf. Good point. Had totally forgotten about that function. Might also prove to boost forum membership too. We'd have more people to scratch on.

Peter1469
02-06-2014, 05:02 PM
Derf. Good point. Had totally forgotten about that function. Might also prove to boost forum membership too. We'd have more people to scratch on.

It is WordPress and pretty easy to figure out- I managed, after a while.

Cthulhu
02-06-2014, 05:04 PM
It is WordPress and pretty easy to figure out- I managed, after a while.

Of all the blogging software available, wordpress is the most widespread, fairly painless to figure out. What are the limitations on it? Don't try to open up a store and fling ads on it and such?

Not saying I would, or that anybody would. But you know someone at some point in time will do it.

Peter1469
02-06-2014, 05:13 PM
Of all the blogging software available, wordpress is the most widespread, fairly painless to figure out. What are the limitations on it? Don't try to open up a store and fling ads on it and such?

Not saying I would, or that anybody would. But you know someone at some point in time will do it.


I have no idea what the limits are. There are several blogs now. This has the first 4. (http://thepoliticalforums.com/blogs/)A complete list is at the bottom of the forum page. Also most people who have blogs include a link in their signature line.

donttread
02-06-2014, 06:27 PM
We killed that hot Internet chick? We are bastards!


At the end of the day you have to believe one of two awful things
1) That your government has secret and often deadly agendas that benefit them but not us
OR
2) That somehow, someway, despite all the vetting, education requirements and available technology that only people who make Barney fife look like a genius are allowed to make government policy
Neither is very comforting

Mainecoons
02-06-2014, 06:40 PM
Nice idea but I avoid Facebook and these other social sites like the plague. Lack of security.

Peter1469
02-06-2014, 06:42 PM
Nice idea but I avoid Facebook and these other social sites like the plague. Lack of security.

Not that it matter to the oldsters, but Facebook could be a very good marketing / networking pool for working aged folk. But you have to use it that way and not put up your bong hit photos or the naval shots - find another outlet for that.

iustitia
02-06-2014, 07:21 PM
I'd be open to that.

Will have to see, but sounds interesting.

Cool idea, but Facebook isn't the place for that type of thing.

This. I think a blog or youtube channel would be more effective - or even just linking them here to a dedicated forum where we only post research findings. But that would require a dedicated forum with restricted access to posting and thread creation - something to take up with moderation and Admin about.

But then you join the sea of others doing the same thing. Not opposed to such a project at all really. But the moment people start wandering way off the map about the reptilian race's plan to overthrow the government using radiation from the invisible brown dwarf star beneath the elliptical...

Yeah, I won't be going that far. But if people want to learn more about the bowels of history, and perhaps a different slant on what they have been told their entire life?

Yeah. I'm game.

This is an attempt I put together within an hour. It's not perfect, but with a team I believe we could have a large audience-

https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499?

I'm open to suggestions and no I'm not against a Youtube channel either in fact I support it as well. Some people may very well benefit more from a 15 minute presentation than struggling with a 300 page book. I'm not opposed to a blog or real site either. With that said I think social networks like Facebook provide a huge opportunity to get information out to people.

This is a page that no longer even provides real content yet has climbed to over 3 million supporters and a typical post generates several thousand likes in minutes- https://www.facebook.com/pages/Conspiracy-Watch/115534755190836
I watched this project grow from nothing to 70k supporters within a year- https://www.facebook.com/CopSpike
(https://www.facebook.com/CopSpike)This page has nearly 200k likes- https://www.facebook.com/statismmakesyouaslave

And as you can see from my posts I share some unconventional viewpoints historically but I'm not touching upon ufo's or bigfoot here. I think this is a good chance to direct lesser-known information to people who would otherwise never come across it. And again, I welcome different viewpoints, not just partisan ones.

The Wash
02-06-2014, 07:24 PM
You said "bigfoot". Code will do it if he can talk about bigfoot.

Cthulhu
02-06-2014, 07:49 PM
You said "bigfoot". Code will do it if he can talk about bigfoot.

Beat me to it.

iustitia
02-06-2014, 08:29 PM
In that case, perhaps Bigfoot should be considered. lol

iustitia
02-07-2014, 02:06 AM
Putting my Paint Shop Pro to use-

5918

donttread
02-07-2014, 08:01 AM
No, the United States tried to broker a 50-50 deal. Both AIOC and Iran refused. Nationalization was popular.

Its been the CIA's mission in the ME for decades to PREVENT nationalization and protect Exxon glory. Nothing else explains their actions over time

Green Arrow
02-07-2014, 08:10 AM
Putting my Paint Shop Pro to use-

5918

I still maintain that he killed Kennedy.

Codename Section
02-07-2014, 08:38 AM
Bigfoot is an anti-statist. Sure. :)

Cthulhu
02-07-2014, 10:43 AM
Bigfoot is an anti-statist. Sure. :)

Not gonna lie, I Lol'd painfully at that. Codename Section

iustitia
02-09-2014, 04:46 AM
Well, I got 40 likes in two days doing nothing so I'd say this isn't an impossible venture. Anyone interested, like and share this bitch.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499

'Murica.

Green Arrow
02-09-2014, 06:10 AM
Liked and shared.

Max Rockatansky
02-09-2014, 08:26 AM
Well, I got 40 likes in two days doing nothing so I'd say this isn't an impossible venture. Anyone interested, like and share this bitch.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499

'Murica.

1.3 Billion monthly Facebook users and you currently have 43 likes! You must be very proud.

Can anyone tell me the percentage on that? My little calculator is old-fashioned and doesn't carry that many zeroes right of the decimal point. :D

iustitia
02-09-2014, 01:56 PM
Liked and shared.

Gracias. Let me know if you want admin status. Shalom.


1.3 Billion monthly Facebook users and you currently have 43 likes! You must be very proud.

Can anyone tell me the percentage on that? My little calculator is old-fashioned and doesn't carry that many zeroes right of the decimal point. :D

lol Obvious troll is obvious.

A few days in the making, not a bad start.

Max Rockatansky
02-09-2014, 05:24 PM
Gracias. Let me know if you want admin status. Shalom.



lol Obvious troll is obvious.

A few days in the making, not a bad start.

Not bad. Sorry if you feel slighted. It's not personal. I ridicule most Facebook followers. Anonymous ones are just grist for the mill.

FWIW, voter turnout in the US averages around 130 Million in Presidential elections. 10% of that is 13M. That wouldn't be a bad number of "likes".

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html

iustitia
02-10-2014, 09:53 PM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499

Not slighted. All things in due time. In one day the likes have doubled. I'm interested in seeing how far I can take this.

Max Rockatansky
02-10-2014, 10:02 PM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499

Not slighted. All things in due time. In one day the likes have doubled. I'm interested in seeing how far I can take this.

Awesome. So how many guns does a 100,000 likes buy you?

iustitia
02-10-2014, 11:26 PM
It depends on how many pictures you share.

iustitia
02-11-2014, 11:42 AM
Holy fuck, shit blew up overnight. Almost 300 now. Booyah!

Max Rockatansky
02-11-2014, 12:37 PM
You must be proud! Yaayyy!

Green Arrow
02-11-2014, 12:37 PM
You must be proud! Yaayyy!

Dude, seriously, don't be an ass. If you don't like it, there's the door.

Cthulhu
02-11-2014, 01:08 PM
Holy fuck, shit blew up overnight. Almost 300 now. Booyah!

I haven't liked anything, nor shared anything on facebook is a long time. But now just did. I feel...strange...

The Xl
02-11-2014, 01:13 PM
You must be proud! Yaayyy!

This seems to strike a nerve with you, for whatever reason.

Max Rockatansky
02-11-2014, 01:16 PM
This seems to strike a nerve with you, for whatever reason.

Yes, my funny bone. Are you a big Facebook fan too, XL?

The Xl
02-11-2014, 01:19 PM
Yes, my funny bone. Are you a big Facebook fan too, XL?

I got rid of my facebook 4 years ago.

Max Rockatansky
02-11-2014, 01:23 PM
Dude, seriously, don't be an ass. If you don't like it, there's the door.

Why would I leave? The party's just getting started. You know I just loooove a good conspiracy theory. They are of endless amusement.

For obvious reasons I'd much rather anarchists and other dissidents post Facebook pages than build bombs and blow people up.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/s720x720/1798644_1405937659658690_267937769_n.png (https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499)

The Xl
02-11-2014, 01:29 PM
Why would I leave? The party's just getting started. You know I just loooove a good conspiracy theory. They are of endless amusement.

For obvious reasons I'd much rather anarchists and other dissidents post Facebook pages than build bombs and blow people up.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/s720x720/1798644_1405937659658690_267937769_n.png (https://www.facebook.com/pages/You-Live-To-Serve-The-State/1405916236327499)

Most of the conspiracies you make light of are out in the open via declassified documents. Surely you realize this?

Cthulhu
02-11-2014, 01:34 PM
Most of the conspiracies you make light of are out in the open via declassified documents. Surely you realize this?

You parry with an opponent that cannot be moved.

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/Assets/ferrouscranus.jpg



Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration Philosopher (http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/philosopher.htm) will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist (http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/therapist.htm) will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm


(http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm)

Max Rockatansky
02-11-2014, 01:55 PM
Most of the conspiracies you make light of are out in the open via declassified documents. Surely you realize this?

It's a matter of perception. What you call "welfare statism", the evil conspiracy to make most Americans completely dependent upon the State, I call do-gooders who can't see that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. What you call the conspiracy of the "military industrial complex", I call a sad part of 1) making corporations equivalent to citizens, 2) the failure of our government's elected legislatures to construct a law negating the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United and 3) the unfortunate truism that money talks and bullshit walks

Where conspiracy theorists see evil forces behind every door, I see greedy idiots who can only see what is in front of their noses.
Where conspiracy theorists believe mankind is inherently evil, I believe mankind is inherently stupid.

Where conspiracy theorists tend to believe "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!", I believe Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.



“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.”
― Alan Moore, author of "V for Vendetta"

Ivan88
02-11-2014, 02:44 PM
A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven to be correct.... at least as far as we can see at the present time.

Therefore, a conspiracy theory is a proven conspiracy.

An honest examination of US history over the last 200+ years will reveal a continuous stream of covetous plots that were carried out successfully.
5959

Max Rockatansky
02-11-2014, 04:05 PM
A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven to be correct.... at least as far as we can see at the present time.

Therefore, a conspiracy theory is a proven conspiracy.

An honest examination of US history over the last 200+ years will reveal a continuous stream of covetous plots that were carried out successfully.
5959

There ya go, The Xl. Does that sum it up for you?

The Xl
02-12-2014, 01:41 PM
It's a matter of perception. What you call "welfare statism", the evil conspiracy to make most Americans completely dependent upon the State, I call do-gooders who can't see that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. What you call the conspiracy of the "military industrial complex", I call a sad part of 1) making corporations equivalent to citizens, 2) the failure of our government's elected legislatures to construct a law negating the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United and 3) the unfortunate truism that money talks and bullshit walks

Where conspiracy theorists see evil forces behind every door, I see greedy idiots who can only see what is in front of their noses.
Where conspiracy theorists believe mankind is inherently evil, I believe mankind is inherently stupid.

Where conspiracy theorists tend to believe "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!", I believe Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.



“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.”
― Alan Moore, author of "V for Vendetta"

What's really the difference, besides semantics?

The fact is, we've had wars that have no origin in defense, and we've had people who profited off said wars. We also know for a fact, no conjecture here, that America contemplated a false flag attack to start a war with Cuba, and lied about the Gulf of Tonkin, which got us into Vietnam.

Codename Section
02-12-2014, 02:01 PM
1. The US government acknowledged MK Ultra and paid out millions in damages
2. The US government acknowledged the the Unibomber was part of the "Murray" project of the MK Ultra, and his brother at The Atlantic blames them for him being batshit crazy
3. The US government paid damages to a family whose member died in the MK Ultra project
4. The US government acknowledges Iran-Contra happened
5. The US government acknowledges Northwoods
6. Benghazi
7. Fast and Furious
8. IRS spying
9. Holder spying on reporters

I'll lose feeling in my hand if I continue with all the things that were once conspiracies until someone caught them. With MK Ultra they acknowledge it was far worse than what they know but the files got shredded.

Green Arrow
02-12-2014, 02:08 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still alive. Surprised and pleased, even with Max's trolling.

The Xl
02-12-2014, 02:11 PM
1. The US government acknowledged MK Ultra and paid out millions in damages
2. The US government acknowledged the the Unibomber was part of the "Murray" project of the MK Ultra, and his brother at The Atlantic blames them for him being batshit crazy
3. The US government paid damages to a family whose member died in the MK Ultra project
4. The US government acknowledges Iran-Contra happened
5. The US government acknowledges Northwoods
6. Benghazi
7. Fast and Furious
8. IRS spying
9. Holder spying on reporters

I'll lose feeling in my hand if I continue with all the things that were once conspiracies until someone caught them. With MK Ultra they acknowledge it was far worse than what they know but the files got shredded.

/Thread.

Impossible for Max to refute, but I admit, I hope to see him try. It would be entertaining.

Codename Section
02-12-2014, 02:12 PM
http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/dark-matters-twisted-but-true/documents/project-mkultra.htm

Senator KENNEDY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We are delighted to join together in this very important area of public inquiry and public interest.
Some 2 years ago, the Senate Health Subcommittee heard chilling testimony about the human experimentation activities of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over 30 universities and institutions were involved in an "extensive testing and experimentation" program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens "at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign." Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to "unwitting subjects in social situations."
At least one death, that of Dr. Olsen, resulted from these activities. The Agency itself acknowledged that these tests made little scientific sense. The agents doing the monitoring were not qualified scientific observers. The test subjects were seldom accessible beyond the first hours of the test. In a number of instances, the test subject became ill for hours or days, and effective followup was impossible. Other experiments were equally offensive. For example, heroin addicts were enticed into participating in LSD experiments in order to get a reward-heroin.
Perhaps most disturbing of all was the fact that the extent of experimentation on human subjects was unknown. The records of all these activities were destroyed in January 1973, at the instruction of then CIA Director Richard Helms. In spite of persistent inquiries by both the Health Subcommittee and the Intelligence Committee, no additional records or information were forthcoming. And no oneno single individual — could be found who remembered the details, not the Director of the CIA, who ordered the documents destroyed, not the official responsible for the program, nor any of his associates.
We believed that the record, incomplete as it was, was as complete as it was going to be. Then one individual, through a Freedom of Information request, accomplished what two U.S. Senate committees could not. He spurred the agency into finding additional records pertaining to the CIA's program of experimentation with human subjects. These new records were discovered by the agency in March. Their existence was not made known to the Congress until July.
The records reveal a far more extensive series of experiments than had previously been thought. Eighty-six universities or institutions were involved. NeV instances of unethical behavior were revealed.
The intelligence community of this Nation, which requires a shroud of secrecy in order to operate, has a very sacred trust from the American people. The CIA's program of human experimentation of the fifties and sixties violated that trust. It was violated again on the day the bulk of the agency's records were destroyed in 1973. It is violated each time a responsible official refuses to recollect the details of the program. The best safeguard against abuses in the future is a complete public accounting of the abuses of the past.

Max Rockatansky
02-12-2014, 02:15 PM
1. The US government acknowledged MK Ultra and paid out millions in damages
2. The US government acknowledged the the Unibomber was part of the "Murray" project of the MK Ultra, and his brother at The Atlantic blames them for him being batshit crazy
3. The US government paid damages to a family whose member died in the MK Ultra project
4. The US government acknowledges Iran-Contra happened
5. The US government acknowledges Northwoods
6. Benghazi
7. Fast and Furious
8. IRS spying
9. Holder spying on reporters

I'll lose feeling in my hand if I continue with all the things that were once conspiracies until someone caught them. With MK Ultra they acknowledge it was far worse than what they know but the files got shredded.

I've never denied conspiracies happen. I just deny that conspiracy theorists are correct about the US faking the Moon landing, the LBJ had JFK killed and that Bush was responsible for 9/11.

Should I start a Facebook page on all of those and see how many "likes" I get?

Codename Section
02-12-2014, 02:17 PM
I've never denied conspiracies happen. I just deny that conspiracy theorists are correct about the US faking the Moon landing, the LBJ had JFK killed and that Bush was responsible for 9/11.

Why are all records for the JFK murder sealed for 75 years and none of the others are? Why did his wife swear the CIA killed him and then leave the country?

Because it's not proven yet? MK Ultra existed before it was proven to be true.

Gerrard Winstanley
02-12-2014, 02:20 PM
I've never denied conspiracies happen. I just deny that conspiracy theorists are correct about the US faking the Moon landing, the LBJ had JFK killed and that Bush was responsible for 9/11.

Should I start a Facebook page on all of those and see how many "likes" I get?
Plenty of non-conspiracy nerds write off the official story now.

IzzyB
02-12-2014, 02:22 PM
Why are all records for the JFK murder sealed for 75 years and none of the others are? Why did his wife swear the CIA killed him and then leave the country?

Because it's not proven yet? MK Ultra existed before it was proven to be true.

I think the CIA killed Kennedy. I didn't know about this other stuff you're bringing up.

Green Arrow
02-12-2014, 02:24 PM
I think the CIA killed Kennedy. I didn't know about this other stuff you're bringing up.

Personally, I maintain that it was LBJ and the CIA.

Ivan88
02-12-2014, 02:25 PM
I've never denied conspiracies happen. I just deny that conspiracy theorists are correct about the US faking the Moon landing, the LBJ had JFK killed and that Bush was responsible for 9/11.

Well, then, maybe Max can offer some insight into just who pulled off the Kennedy assassination. The entire US government has kept the truth of the matter hidden all the way to now, just as they lie and cover up what really happened on 9/11 and a ton of other events.
5971

Max Rockatansky
02-12-2014, 02:26 PM
Plenty of non-conspiracy nerds write off the official story now.

Are they suggesting that LBJ did kill Kennedy? That it was the Mafia? Castro? The CIA? If any of those did it, why didn't some Democrat or Republican President and/or Congress reveal it for political ammunition? If LBJ did kill Kennedy, then the Republicans could ensure a Republican White House and Congress for decades by telling the truth. If it was the CIA, the Democrats could destroy the CIA and anyone who supports them by revealing the truth. So why have none done this?

Green Arrow
02-12-2014, 02:27 PM
Are they suggesting that LBJ did kill Kennedy? That it was the Mafia? Castro? The CIA? If any of those did it, why didn't some Democrat or Republican President and/or Congress reveal it for political ammunition? If LBJ did kill Kennedy, then the Republicans could ensure a Republican White House and Congress for decades by telling the truth. If it was the CIA, the Democrats could destroy the CIA and anyone who supports them by revealing the truth. So why have none done this?

You're assuming anybody would know if the CIA did it.

Gerrard Winstanley
02-12-2014, 02:28 PM
Personally, I maintain that it was LBJ and the CIA.
That would explain whatever the fuck happened to this (http://whitehousetapes.net/clip/john-kennedy-robert-mcnamara-1000-troop-withdrawal-south-vietnam).

Max Rockatansky
02-12-2014, 02:28 PM
You're assuming anybody would know if the CIA did it.

Ask the conspiracy theorists. They know. ;)

The Xl
02-12-2014, 02:29 PM
I think the CIA killed Kennedy. I didn't know about this other stuff you're bringing up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

nic34
02-12-2014, 02:30 PM
There ya go, @The Xl (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=865). Does that sum it up for you?


Yep, that sure does.

And now we need to hang the guy currently in charge..... that'll fix things.

I mean think of how great everyone felt once Marie Antoinette was beheaded?

Ivan88
02-12-2014, 02:30 PM
If any of those did it, why didn't some Democrat or Republican President and/or Congress reveal it for political ammunition? If LBJ did kill Kennedy, then the Republicans could ensure a Republican White House and Congress for decades by telling the truth. If it was the CIA, the Democrats could destroy the CIA and anyone who supports them by revealing the truth. So why have none done this?

Answer, either they are complicit, or they are scared, or they don't care, or they are just opportunists looking out for themselves.
5972

To nic34, Got a laugh out of your Marie Antoinette joke. She probably felt better, but not as much as those who plotted her demise.

Gerrard Winstanley
02-12-2014, 02:32 PM
Are they suggesting that LBJ did kill Kennedy? That it was the Mafia? Castro? The CIA? If any of those did it, why didn't some Democrat or Republican President and/or Congress reveal it for political ammunition? If LBJ did kill Kennedy, then the Republicans could ensure a Republican White House and Congress for decades by telling the truth. If it was the CIA, the Democrats could destroy the CIA and anyone who supports them by revealing the truth. So why have none done this?
Same reason the Democrats never leaked PRISM.

Green Arrow
02-12-2014, 02:35 PM
Ask the conspiracy theorists. They know. ;)

No, nobody knows. They are called conspiracy theorists because they have theories​, Max.

nic34
02-12-2014, 02:35 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Secrecy-Long-Shadow-Assassination/dp/1582435359

Codename Section
02-12-2014, 02:35 PM
Same reason the Democrats never leaked PRISM.

Same reason that for 30 years--30--no one leaked MK Ultra. Because none of our Congress knew about it. It was wholly conceived and run by a rogue, out of control agency.