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Chris
12-16-2013, 10:59 AM
If you don't like Rand, forget him, economic free zones would be a good idea fo Detroit but the federal government cannot release its corporatist grip.

Rand Paul Won't Be Able To Save Detroit (http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/15/rand-pauls-non-plan-to-save-detroit)


Like yesterday’s fashions, old policies never die, they simply return with new accessories. So it is with Rand Paul’s proposal to create Economic Freedom Zones for Detroit and other depressed cities—a recycled version of the Enterprise Zones of 1980s

But if past is prelude, this idea won’t work not because it doesn’t make sense—but because Washington won’t allow a sensible version to pass its august chambers.

Freedom Zones is Paul’s answer to Obama’s bailout—oops, aid—package for Detroit and a way to show minorities that the GOP cares. Unlike Obama’s plan, Paul won’t offer federal handouts for housing, brownfield cleanup, highways and gang busting. Rather, he’ll slash federal taxes (income, corporate, capital gains and payroll) and regulations (EPA’s storm-water clean up rules) for areas whose unemployment is 50 percent over the national average.

For Detroit, this would work out to a $1.3 billion-stimulus over 10 years. “These zones don’t ask Houston or Atlanta to bailout Detroit,” he said last week. “It frees Detroit to bail itself out.”

...This approach worked well in England, turning London’s depressed docklands into a super-dynamic hub for finance and other businesses in the 1980s. It also transformed India’s Bangalore from a sleepy little town (that Winston Churchill once compared to a prison) into a global IT powerhouse in the 1990s.

But it has been a disappointing failure in America. Why? Because neither Republicans nor Democrats have ever managed to create anything resembling a genuine Enterprise Zone.

...The federal regulatory state has been the liberal tool of choice for enacting sweeping environmental, consumer, and workplace protections over the past 50 years. Liberals regard the country’s primary challenge not as wealth creation—but protecting Americans from the ill effects of wealth creation. Depressed cities are a price they are willing to pay (unlike, say, in India, where eradicating rampant poverty is still the central political task).

...If Paul wants to succeed, he’ll have to do more than outline an abstract concept. He’ll have to present it in a form that can withstand the inevitable political onslaught. Lame half gestures won’t fix Detroit or win over its minorities.

Cigar
12-16-2013, 11:04 AM
I got an idea, how about Rand prototype his ideas on his constituents, and get back to us on how it works out for him. :laugh:

Chris
12-16-2013, 11:14 AM
I got an idea, how about Rand prototype his ideas on his constituents, and get back to us on how it works out for him. :laugh:

I see you argue Rand rather than the message.

Cigar
12-16-2013, 11:41 AM
I see you argue Rand rather than the message.

Show me and I'll be a believer ... Rand should test his theories on his turf first ... don't you think?

Chris
12-16-2013, 11:45 AM
Show me and I'll be a believer ... Rand should test his theories on his turf first ... don't you think?

See the OP, if not enough, follow the link. It's not his idea. Do try and make a meaningful contribution.

del
12-16-2013, 11:55 AM
See the OP, if not enough, follow the link. It's not his idea. Do try and make a meaningful contribution.

he's the one pushing for it, is he not?

suggesting he try it out on his own constituents isn't a bad idea

Cigar
12-16-2013, 11:56 AM
See the OP, if not enough, follow the link. It's not his idea. Do try and make a meaningful contribution.

This is my contribution, like it or not!

Rand Paul is a United States Senior for The State of Kentucky; my question for Rand Paul is simply this, and I'd say the exact came thing directly to his face ... as would any reasonable Business Executive would answer any Business Proposal for any good business plan.

How did this work for Kentucky?

Chris
12-16-2013, 11:57 AM
he's the one pushing for it, is he not?

suggesting he try it out on his own constituents isn't a bad idea

The idea is an old one if you read the OP or its link.

If what you say is true then that would negate any federal solutions applied at any local level.

Cigar
12-16-2013, 11:58 AM
The idea is an old one if you read the OP or its link.

If what you say is true then that would negate any federal solutions applied at any local level.

The Questions is still ... How did this work for Kentucky! :grin: this ain't fucking London England

Chris
12-16-2013, 11:59 AM
This is my contribution, like it or not!

Rand Paul is a United States Senior for The State of Kentucky; my question for Rand Paul is simply this, and I'd say the exact came thing directly to his face ... as would any reasonable Business Executive would answer any Business Proposal for any good business plan.

How did this work for Kentucky?

Let's apply your logic to your comments: Are you living in Detroit? Of course not.

Did you have any actual criticism of economic free zones?

KC
12-16-2013, 11:59 AM
The idea is an old one if you read the OP or its link.

If what you say is true then that would negate any federal solutions applied at any local level.

I think that's spot on, really. We should have fewer federal solutions applied at the state and local levels.

del
12-16-2013, 12:00 PM
The idea is an old one if you read the OP or its link.

If what you say is true then that would negate any federal solutions applied at any local level.

saying that he try it out on his own constituency negates all federal solutions to anything at any local level?

:laugh:

that's risible on its face

Chris
12-16-2013, 12:03 PM
saying that he try it out on his own constituency negates all federal solutions to anything at any local level?

:laugh:

that's risible on its face

Your argument is don't try this because it hasn't been tried locally. What federal policies were first tried locally? It's your logic, you ought to be able to follow it.


Why would economic free zones be needed in Kentucky? It's not in the economic dire straits bankrupt Detroit is.

Cigar
12-16-2013, 12:09 PM
Your argument is don't try this because it hasn't been tried locally. What federal policies were first tried locally? It's your logic, you ought to be able to follow it.


Why would economic free zones be needed in Kentucky? It's not in the economic dire straits bankrupt Detroit is.

Would you agree that Investments in American Infrastructure has fact-based verifiable data that is undisputed for being Job Creating and Value Add Programs?

The United States of America's Infrastructure has fact-based verifiable data that it is in dire straits ... but I don't see you endorsing any action.

But somehow you're all concerned about one state ... that's Detroit's Future ... really .... :rollseyes:

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 12:14 PM
None of you have lived in Detroit and are applying normal experience to that city. Detroit has (now) a thriving black market economy and now growing anarchist community. The lack of enforcement of regulations is the only thing feeding some of the people who've exhausted their benefits and are hand to mouth.

Right now I'm trying to find work for friends and former people in my neighborhood. From my account each month goes $1100 just to place against the high property taxes of houses that look like they should be in Silent Hill so that people I loved from my youth can live in a now quiet, former ghetto.

All of this is nice talking but the problem is systemic with a need for short term and long term solutions.

I am personally thinking of pulling a Marshall Mathers and buying several blocks worth of houses for $25 to raze to lower the property tax and then put up yurts to rent them to people. It's that bad there.

People need help, not ideology.

I'm talking to both sides of the aisle on this one.

Chris
12-16-2013, 12:57 PM
Would you agree that Investments in American Infrastructure has fact-based verifiable data that is undisputed for being Job Creating and Value Add Programs?

The United States of America's Infrastructure has fact-based verifiable data that it is in dire straits ... but I don't see you endorsing any action.

But somehow you're all concerned about one state ... that's Detroit's Future ... really .... :rollseyes:

If it were factual you would have presented facts, cigar.

Again, nothing to say about economic free zones?

KC
12-16-2013, 01:01 PM
None of you have lived in Detroit and are applying normal experience to that city. Detroit has (now) a thriving black market economy and now growing anarchist community. The lack of enforcement of regulations is the only thing feeding some of the people who've exhausted their benefits and are hand to mouth.

Right now I'm trying to find work for friends and former people in my neighborhood. From my account each month goes $1100 just to place against the high property taxes of houses that look like they should be in Silent Hill so that people I loved from my youth can live in a now quiet, former ghetto.

All of this is nice talking but the problem is systemic with a need for short term and long term solutions.

I am personally thinking of pulling a Marshall Mathers and buying several blocks worth of houses for $25 to raze to lower the property tax and then put up yurts to rent them to people. It's that bad there.

People need help, not ideology.

I'm talking to both sides of the aisle on this one.

You lived in Detroit, did you ever make use of the People Mover? I only ask because it's one of the projects economist Ed Glaeser frequently uses as an example of how poor infrastructure spending choices can negatively impact a city.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 01:04 PM
You lived in Detroit, did you ever make use of the People Mover? I only ask because it's one of the projects economist Ed Glaeser frequently uses as an example of how poor infrastructure spending choices can negatively impact a city.

No.

Chris
12-16-2013, 01:05 PM
None of you have lived in Detroit and are applying normal experience to that city. Detroit has (now) a thriving black market economy and now growing anarchist community. The lack of enforcement of regulations is the only thing feeding some of the people who've exhausted their benefits and are hand to mouth.

Right now I'm trying to find work for friends and former people in my neighborhood. From my account each month goes $1100 just to place against the high property taxes of houses that look like they should be in Silent Hill so that people I loved from my youth can live in a now quiet, former ghetto.

All of this is nice talking but the problem is systemic with a need for short term and long term solutions.

I am personally thinking of pulling a Marshall Mathers and buying several blocks worth of houses for $25 to raze to lower the property tax and then put up yurts to rent them to people. It's that bad there.

People need help, not ideology.

I'm talking to both sides of the aisle on this one.

The proposed economic free zones would eliminate a lot of regulatory red tape preventing entrepreneurs on the streets from starting small ventures. We know this works by the grassroots efforts of city gardening taking over abandoned lots in Detroit.

De Soto's The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else is an excellent study on this. It's not ideology but anti-ideology.

del
12-16-2013, 03:06 PM
Your argument is don't try this because it hasn't been tried locally. What federal policies were first tried locally? It's your logic, you ought to be able to follow it.


Why would economic free zones be needed in Kentucky? It's not in the economic dire straits bankrupt Detroit is.

no, my argument is try it in kentucky first, not try in kentucky first or don't try it a all.

if economic free zones are such a barnburner of an idea, they'll show even better results in an area that isn't economically decimated.

do try to keep up; the world is analog, not binary

Chris
12-16-2013, 03:10 PM
no, my argument is try it in kentucky first, not try in kentucky first or don't try it a all.

if economic free zones are such a barnburner of an idea, they'll show even better results in an area that isn't economically decimated.

do try to keep up; the world is analog, not binary


Why Kentucky? Try to contribute something at least.

snali
12-16-2013, 03:11 PM
These economic zones are a great idea solutions like these are needed to solve local problems like Detroit not some federal government mandate

del
12-16-2013, 03:46 PM
Why Kentucky? Try to contribute something at least.

because rand paul is from kentucky

jesus, you're approaching black hole status.

jillian
12-16-2013, 03:47 PM
Why Kentucky? Try to contribute something at least.

because he represents kentucky. and if he thinks something is so great he should use it there.

if he isn't trying out his "great ideas" in his own state, i figure it's because he knows they suck and he'd be voted out of office.

KC
12-16-2013, 03:49 PM
because he represents kentucky. and if he thinks something is so great he should use it there.

if he isn't trying out his "great ideas" in his own state, i figure it's because he knows they suck and he'd be voted out of office.

Or maybe, just a thought, because he's a US Senator and not a Governor or a Kentucky State Senator. This conversation is really odd.

Green Arrow
12-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Show me and I'll be a believer ... Rand should test his theories on his turf first ... don't you think?

I disagree. When you're in a position like Detroit, you can't get any worse. It makes the perfect testing ground to see what ideas work. If an idea doesn't work, we keep trying ideas until we find one that does work. When we find one that works, the people of Detroit will be better off than they ever have been.

Why would you hold the people of Detroit hostage to poverty and misery just over political differences?

jillian
12-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Or maybe, just a thought, because he's a US Senator and not a Governor or a Kentucky State Senator. This conversation is really odd.

yes, him opining what should be done in other states but not in his own is odd.

he should stop.

Green Arrow
12-16-2013, 03:52 PM
because he represents kentucky. and if he thinks something is so great he should use it there.

if he isn't trying out his "great ideas" in his own state, i figure it's because he knows they suck and he'd be voted out of office.

Or maybe it's because he has no power in the state of Kentucky because he's been elected to serve a place in the federal government. To put his ideas into practice in Kentucky, he would have to get the Governor and state legislature to agree, and currently, the governor and state legislature are of a different party. We all know how Democrats and Republicans interact in this country.

They don't.

jillian
12-16-2013, 03:54 PM
Or maybe it's because he has no power in the state of Kentucky because he's been elected to serve a place in the federal government. To put his ideas into practice in Kentucky, he would have to get the Governor and state legislature to agree, and currently, the governor and state legislature are of a different party. We all know how Democrats and Republicans interact in this country.

They don't.

they don't because the GOP has been usurped by wingers.

that said, it's none of his business ... it's a state issue. he's barely literate on issues that he actually has to deal with.

and i'm pretty sure if it were chris christie or andy cuomo and not your pet, you'd be humming a different tune.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:06 PM
because he represents kentucky. and if he thinks something is so great he should use it there.

if he isn't trying out his "great ideas" in his own state, i figure it's because he knows they suck and he'd be voted out of office.

Because Kentucky doesn't have Detroit's specific problems? That would be the first thing that comes to mind. You'd have to have agrarian based and suburban based solutions for Kentucky. Detroit is a dying metropolitan area that once had a manufacturing base.

I understand your dislike for the man, but you're also not unintelligent. I have to believe this response is not a serious one.

Green Arrow
12-16-2013, 04:09 PM
they don't because the GOP has been usurped by wingers.

that said, it's none of his business ... it's a state issue. he's barely literate on issues that he actually has to deal with.

I disagree. It's everybody's business as Americans. That's part of living in a free society, where you're allowed to have an opinion on any matter you like and are free to pursue the implementation of those ideas anywhere in the country.


and i'm pretty sure if it were chris christie or andy cuomo and not your pet, you'd be humming a different tune.

Yes, because you're petty and judgmental. If you actually cared to get to know me before launching your pathetic attacks, you'd find out that I actually like Andrew Cuomo. In fact, I'd posit that I like more Democrats than you're aware of, but let's be real, it's not like it matters. You'd just find some other reason to attack me.

So let's stop pretending you care at all what I have to say.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:13 PM
To get into Duke Medical school does anyone know what your GPA has to be?

People can pretend he is stupid all they wish, but it doesn't make it true. How often have I heard that we're entitled to have our own opinions, but not make up our own facts? Quite often.

Detroit has an underground economy. Fact. It has this because the legal jobs are non-existent and the taxes are high for proper businesses. Property tax on a 1000 sqft home in the Mt. Elliot-Jefferson cross section area is about $1600 a year. That is more expensive than the last block sale where they go for $200-$500.

The city has serious problems and the solution is to return to the solutions it offered before? I'm sorry but that, not what Rand Paul says, it the essence of stupidity.

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:14 PM
because he represents kentucky. and if he thinks something is so great he should use it there.

if he isn't trying out his "great ideas" in his own state, i figure it's because he knows they suck and he'd be voted out of office.

Yet another one.

How can I be clearer than the OP, this is not about Rand Paul.

I will simply ignore further ad hom nonsense. Just not worth addressing.

jillian
12-16-2013, 04:15 PM
To get into Duke Medical school does anyone know what your GPA has to be?

People can pretend he is stupid all they wish, but it doesn't make it true. How often have I heard that we're entitled to have our own opinions, but not make up our own facts? Quite often.

Detroit has an underground economy. Fact. It has this because the legal jobs are non-existent and the taxes are high for proper businesses. Property tax on a 1000 sqft home in the Mt. Elliot-Jefferson cross section area is about $1600 a year. That is more expensive than the last block sale where they go for $200-$500.

The city has serious problems and the solution is to return to the solutions it offered before? I'm sorry but that, not what Rand Paul says, it the essence of stupidity.

the fact that he was smart in one area. (although we don't know how influential his daddy was re duke med school) has nothing to do with him being uninformed and naive about other issues.

he has shown very little knowledge, even in the areas he's supposed to know about. i'd give you a link, but i have to book right now.

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:18 PM
I disagree. When you're in a position like Detroit, you can't get any worse. It makes the perfect testing ground to see what ideas work. If an idea doesn't work, we keep trying ideas until we find one that does work. When we find one that works, the people of Detroit will be better off than they ever have been.

Why would you hold the people of Detroit hostage to poverty and misery just over political differences?


Yes, but that is in part the reason this idea has failed in the past. It requires something of a federalist approach to experiment in Detroit with one solution, elsewhere with other "experiments" and then to work with what works best. That's not possible once the federal government and it's one-size-fits-all approach is applied.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:19 PM
the fact that he was smart in one area. (although we don't know how influential his daddy was re duke med school) has nothing to do with him being uninformed and naive about other issues.


Jillian? Please. I refuse to say Obama got into _____________ with his piss-poor (for Columbia and Harvard) grades because he's black, you can do the same courtesy here.



he has shown very little knowledge, even in the areas he's supposed to know about. i'd give you a link, but i have to book right now.

You needn't. It will be from Mother Love Jones or some other online mag that isn't worth reading. :D

Have a safe subway ride and give the guy in the yellow raincoat and tinfoil cart a wave for me. I miss him so.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:21 PM
The black market is an unregulated market that thrives. It supplies jobs to a lot of people, and outside of drug cartels, 2-3 trillion dollars pass through unregulated under the table means.

Obviously these "zones" work.

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:24 PM
This is what an economic free zone would support, the sort of grassroots entrepreneurship presented in these stories:

Grassroots movement shatters myth that Detroit is 'food desert' (http://www.modeldmedia.com/features/fooddesertmyth812.aspx)
HOW A YOUNG COMMUNITY OF ENTREPRENEURS IS REBUILDING DETROIT (http://www.fastcompany.com/3007840/creative-conversations/how-young-community-entrepreneurs-rebuilding-detroit)
For Detroit, this may be a real comeback (http://news.msn.com/us/for-detroit-this-may-be-a-real-comeback)
Grassroots renaissance in Detroit (http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/today/grassroots-renaissance-detroit/)
Can Entrepreneurs Save Detroit? (http://nystartuphub.com/can-entrepreneurs-save-detroit/)

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:26 PM
This is a very emotional topic for me because I have friends there that I love very much. I want to see Detroit make a comeback.

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:26 PM
The black market is an unregulated market that thrives. It supplies jobs to a lot of people, and outside of drug cartels, 2-3 trillion dollars pass through unregulated under the table means.

Obviously these "zones" work.


What De Soto describes is how black markets can be made legitimate by removing the regulatory red tape that restricts them.

Green Arrow
12-16-2013, 04:28 PM
This is a very emotional topic for me because I have friends there that I love very much. I want to see Detroit make a comeback.

I don't know anybody there, and I want to see it make a comeback too.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:31 PM
It will come back if outsiders quit trying to apply ideology that failed in the past to fixing the problem. It will come back when the native sons like myself, zelmo1234, Eminem, and others invest and try to fix it from the perspective of people who accurately understand the problem.

Detroit is a city with a lot of heart but a lot of problems. I'll gladly help as much as I can because I believe in the people that live there.

3-1-3!!!!

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:32 PM
It would benefit all, the general welfare.
Alyosha , do you have any stories you can share?

Green Arrow
12-16-2013, 04:34 PM
It will come back if outsiders quit trying to apply ideology that failed in the past to fixing the problem. It will come back when the native sons like myself, @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588), Eminem, and others invest and try to fix it from the perspective of people who accurately understand the problem.

Detroit is a city with a lot of heart but a lot of problems. I'll gladly help as much as I can because I believe in the people that live there.

3-1-3!!!!

What about, when you come home, getting in touch with fellow native sons like Eminem and such and putting together some sort of "Save Detroit" organization? Take charge of the city and bring in new ideas like Sen. Paul's.

Chris
12-16-2013, 04:49 PM
Kid Rock is going to reopen his BadAss Brewery: http://americanbadassbeer.com/home/?p=1994.

Alyosha
12-16-2013, 04:55 PM
Detroit has always has a strong "alternative" scene, lots of neopagans, lots of anarchists...just a lot of creativity. I think these types of people are supportive of alternative economic methodology.

Reason is showing a series on Detroiters doing this very thing. The problem is they are getting smacked by revenue collectors who are desperate and its shutting down small business growth.

Rand is not wrong.

Chris
12-16-2013, 05:01 PM
The econ free zone would stop the revenue collectors, which, in the OP, is an objection to the plan, it doesn't offset the lost revenue with spending cuts. Poor federal government!