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Max Rockatansky
12-21-2013, 07:11 PM
I've seen some people talk casually about war, revolt and secession. Few of them remember the cost in blood such actions take.

Not everyone has forgotten the cost as this article relates. 620,000 dead is almost a third more than we lost in WWII, but in a population of only 25 Million, that's about 2%. If we lost 2% of our population today in a Civil War, it would be over 6 million dead.

Care to donate? Here's the website: http://www.hallowedground.org/Get-Involved/Plant-a-Tree

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/21/civil-war-trees-planting-dead-memorial/4063783/

On a busy stretch of suburban highway an hour's drive south of the Mason-Dixon Line, workers are digging holes in a grass median, then carefully planting thin, delicate trees: oak, maple, cedar and dogwood — 108 in all — before winter sets in.

The planting looks like a typical highway beautification, but it's part of a quiet effort that seeks to answer a very big question: 150 years after the end of the Civil War, can trees heal the nation's soul?


An estimated 620,000 soldiers died fighting from 1861 to 1865, far more than in any war Americans have fought since. Yet for all the intensity surrounding the war's 150th anniversary, almost no one — including most historians — can say for sure exactly how many died, or who nearly half of the dead were. Many soldiers, especially those who fought for the South, never received a proper burial.


Along the historic highway that stretches from Thomas Jefferson's home, near Charlottesville, Va., to the national cemetery at Gettysburg, Pa., a small group has spent the past two years literally laying the groundwork to plant a tree for every one of the dead.


When completed, the $65 million project will be the largest man-made pathway of trees on the globe, stretching 180 miles north to south over three states.


Its scale brings home the war's grim reality: So many men died in those four years that if workers simply planted along both sides of the route, each tree would stand just three feet from the next.


So organizers are asking communities along the route to devote small swaths of land to creating groves. They've already planted 248 trees at Bliss Orchard at Gettysburg, part of a larger effort by the National Park Service to restore the battlefield site to what it looked like in 1863.


Cate Magennis Wyatt, a former Virginia secretary of commerce who heads the Journey Through Hallowed Ground Partnership, a well-funded public-private effort that has already turned the route into a "scenic byway," says the idea for trees was not a hard sell for communities along the route. They had been asked by state officials to come up with a way to commemorate the war's 150th anniversary.


"They called me and said, 'Cate, we don't want another flagpole. We don't need another monument. What can we do together that's bigger than what any one of us could do individually?' "


Wyatt suggested planting an allée, or alley, of trees — she knew that Australians had created one after World War I — and soon people all along the route were asking how they could help.


"Tree people love this," says Virginia arborist Peter Hart, who has championed the project.


At an arborists' conference recently, Hart manned a table publicizing the effort and says it was "constantly crowded" with tree experts wanting to know more and many forking over the $100 it costs to donate a tree. As he explained the effort, he says, a few even teared up as they absorbed its magnitude.


"They're excited about this," says Hart, who laid out $200 to plant trees for two great-grandfathers who fought in the war and survived.


After 150 years, the Civil War remains unprecedented in the USA in its carnage. Historians estimate that one in three households in the South lost a family member and that overall about 2% of the USA population died in the line of duty. Today that would be the equivalent of more than 6 million dead, or 4,100 per day, every day, for four years.


Some estimates put the war's death toll as high as 740,000, but poorly kept records, especially for Confederate soldiers, mean that historians likely will never know its full extent. Should historians confirm the higher count, Wyatt says, "We're prepared to go there if we need to."


Using GPS technology, the group is working with the National Park Service and other partners, including the online sites ancestry.com and fold3.com, to create an interactive map that will allow anyone traveling the route to find a tree planted for an individual soldier. Wyatt foresees that travelers someday will be able to pinpoint individual trees using a smartphone, then use an app to call up each soldier's information.


Within just a few years, she predicts, the stands of trees — red sunset maples, chestnut and willow oaks, red-twigged dogwoods, red cedars and eastern redbuds, among others — will soon be "impossible not to recognize."


As workers finished digging holes along the highway one cold morning this week, Leesburg Mayor Kristen Umstattd said the city plans to contribute at least 500 trees. The effort, she says, has become "part of the lexicon of planting" in Leesburg.


"It's ongoing," Umstattd says. "I expect it to last for a generation or more."


Those looking to donate a tree can do so online at the Journey Through Hallowed Ground Partnership's website (http://www.hallowedground.org/Get-Involved/Plant-a-Tree).

BB-35
12-21-2013, 11:02 PM
I've read that revised estimates of the dead from the civil war have gone up to 3/4 of a million....

Kabuki Joe
12-21-2013, 11:06 PM
I've seen some people talk casually about war, revolt and secession. Few of them remember the cost in blood such actions take.

Not everyone has forgotten the cost as this article relates. 620,000 dead is almost a third more than we lost in WWII, but in a population of only 25 Million, that's about 2%. If we lost 2% of our population today in a Civil War, it would be over 6 million dead.

Care to donate? Here's the website: http://www.hallowedground.org/Get-Involved/Plant-a-Tree

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/21/civil-war-trees-planting-dead-memorial/4063783/



...I heard Rush or Lars Larson saying the Lee and the other prominent Confederate General are being removed from the US Military War College...zippo...gone...even though they were great leaders and military strategists, apparently they are not welcome there anymore...who know jillian had such powerful friends...

Peter1469
12-21-2013, 11:10 PM
...I heard Rush or Lars Larson saying the Lee and the other prominent Confederate General are being removed from the US Military War College...zippo...gone...even though they were great leaders and military strategists, apparently they are not welcome there anymore...who know jillian had such powerful friends...

I would be surprised at that. I have seen both sides of the war represented on posts that I have been on.

Kabuki Joe
12-21-2013, 11:22 PM
I would be surprised at that. I have seen both sides of the war represented on posts that I have been on.


...but they represent slave owners...and racism...

Peter1469
12-21-2013, 11:22 PM
So did Thomas Jefferson.

Kabuki Joe
12-21-2013, 11:47 PM
So did Thomas Jefferson.


...I think most if not all of the founders did...for some reason every empire was built off of slaves but it seems the only place in the world it was wrong was in the US...Lee was a great leader and military strategist, I sure hope they don't go through with this idea...

Kabuki Joe
12-21-2013, 11:51 PM
...here's the link:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/18/us-army-war-college-considers-removing-its-portraits-confederate-generals/

Gerrard Winstanley
12-22-2013, 05:33 AM
...I think most if not all of the founders did...for some reason every empire was built off of slaves but it seems the only place in the world it was wrong was in the US...Lee was a great leader and military strategist, I sure hope they don't go through with this idea...
Virtually every Western nation which practiced slavery has some sort of 'official guilt' policy in place. It's stupid. We have no obligation to apologize for decisions made by men long-dead, in times dominated by a harsher ethical code.

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 05:55 AM
...here's the link:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/18/us-army-war-college-considers-removing-its-portraits-confederate-generals/

It appears the paintings would simply be relocated.

The college is currently conducting an inventory of its paintings and photographs, which feature Confederate generals such as Lee and Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson. The school plans to re-hang the images later in specific categories to showcase the military’s history, the Washington Times reports.

“There will be change: over the years very fine artwork has been hung with care – but little rationale or overall purpose,” US Army Major General Tony Cucolo, the commandant of the college, said in a statement posted on the school’s website (http://www.carlisle.army.mil/banner/article.cfm?id=3289)http://global.fncstatic.com/static/v/all/img/external-link.png Wednesday afternoon.

“I will… approach our historical narrative with keen awareness and adherence to the seriousness of several things: accurate capture of US military history, good, bad and ugly; a Soldier’s life of selfless service to our Nation; and our collective solemn oath to defend the Constitution of the United States (not a person or a symbol, but a body of ideals),” he added. “Those are the things I will be looking to reinforce with any changes to the artwork.”

patrickt
12-22-2013, 05:58 AM
Virtually every Western nation which practiced slavery has some sort of 'official guilt' policy in place. It's stupid. We have no obligation to apologize for decisions made by men long-dead, in times dominated by a harsher ethical code.

For some, it's a handy way to avoid apologizing for what they've done.

jillian
12-22-2013, 06:14 AM
For some, it's a handy way to avoid apologizing for what they've done.

and for some its a way of closing the book and moving on.

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 06:23 AM
I've read that revised estimates of the dead from the civil war have gone up to 3/4 of a million....

True and that's not including the civilian casualties. The article mentions this:

After 150 years, the Civil War remains unprecedented in the USA in its carnage. Historians estimate that one in three households in the South lost a family member and that overall about 2% of the USA population died in the line of duty. Today that would be the equivalent of more than 6 million dead, or 4,100 per day, every day, for four years.

Some estimates put the war's death toll as high as 740,000, but poorly kept records, especially for Confederate soldiers, mean that historians likely will never know its full extent. Should historians confirm the higher count, Wyatt says, "We're prepared to go there if we need to."Losing the equivalent of 4,100 war dead per day today helps explain why the war is still in the nation's memory.

The high number of casualties quickly filled up cemeteries and new ones were needed. After researching areas around Washington, D.C., the 110 acre Arlington farm was found to be suitable. it was on high ground presenting good drainage and had the bonus of being Robert E. Lee's home.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/arho/clr.pdf

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 06:24 AM
and for some its a way of closing the book and moving on.

True, but it appears some want to keep the book open for political reasons.

jillian
12-22-2013, 06:25 AM
True and that's not including the civilian casualties. The article mentions this:
Losing the equivalent of 4,100 war dead per day today helps explain why the war is still in the nation's memory.

The high number of casualties quickly filled up cemeteries and new ones were needed. After researching areas around Washington, D.C., the 110 acre Arlington farm was found to be suitable. it was on high ground presenting good drainage and had the bonus of being Robert E. Lee's home.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/arho/clr.pdf


i heard yesterday that his son petitioned for the return of the land, got it back, but didn't want to live on a cemetery, so sold it back to the government for over $100,000

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 06:47 AM
i heard yesterday that his son petitioned for the return of the land, got it back, but didn't want to live on a cemetery, so sold it back to the government for over $100,000

The petition, IIRC, was for compensation for the loss of the land.

Kabuki Joe
12-22-2013, 09:06 AM
True and that's not including the civilian casualties. The article mentions this:
Losing the equivalent of 4,100 war dead per day today helps explain why the war is still in the nation's memory.

The high number of casualties quickly filled up cemeteries and new ones were needed. After researching areas around Washington, D.C., the 110 acre Arlington farm was found to be suitable. it was on high ground presenting good drainage and had the bonus of being Robert E. Lee's home.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/arho/clr.pdf


...why wouldn't you want to remember it?...from both sides?...it's an important part of US history...

Kabuki Joe
12-22-2013, 09:07 AM
It appears the paintings would simply be relocated.


...why should they be relocated?...and a better question is why now?...

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 11:16 AM
...why should they be relocated?...and a better question is why now?...

The article clearly stated the reasons. It seems reasonable to me.

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 11:28 AM
...why wouldn't you want to remember it?...from both sides?...it's an important part of US history...
As a student of history, I do remember it along with several other military conflicts in our history. Unfortunately, most Americans have little interest in "ancient" history. Heck, only 62% of Americans passed the same exam given to immigrants seeking to become naturalized citizens (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-americans-history-civics-challenged-poll/).

Answers were equally weak or worse on American history questions:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/9526/how-many-americans-know-us-history-part.aspx
http://media.gallup.com/GPTB/religValue/20031021_1.gif


Americans test equally weak on geography (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/0502_060502_geography.html) as this classic Doonesbury panel points out:
http://orientalredneck.blogspot.com/graphics/doonesbury12-12-2002.gif

Kabuki Joe
12-22-2013, 11:48 AM
The article clearly stated the reasons. It seems reasonable to me.



...why now and not 20 years ago?...10 years ago?...5 years ago?...

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 11:52 AM
...why now and not 20 years ago?...10 years ago?...5 years ago?...

I give up. Why now?

Kabuki Joe
12-22-2013, 01:48 PM
I give up. Why now?


...I was asking you, you said you were ok with it so I was asking you why now...

Max Rockatansky
12-22-2013, 02:03 PM
...I was asking you, you said you were ok with it so I was asking you why now...

You didn't like my answer twice now. So why do you think it's a problem?

Fredy
12-23-2013, 01:01 AM
So did Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson wasn't a traitor.

Peter1469
12-23-2013, 06:01 AM
Thomas Jefferson wasn't a traitor.

Good point.

Welcome to tPF!

Max Rockatansky
12-23-2013, 06:36 AM
Thomas Jefferson wasn't a traitor.

King George and the Redcoat Army disagreed.


http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote71.htm
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

http://www.nps.gov/revwar/unfinished_revolution/treason.htm

Treason is a political crime committed against a state or government to which the person charged with treason owes a duty of allegiance. The dictionary defines treason as a violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies. (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

The men signing the Declaration of Independence were acutely aware of the risk they ran of committing treason against the British King to whom, but a short time before, they were firmly bound as subjects. They enumerated in the Declaration a long train of abuses and usurpations which they contended dissolved all political connections between the former colonies and Great Britain and absolved them from allegiance to the British Crown.


The value of that defense remained to be determined in a civil war. As Thomas McKean, a signer of the Declaration and later Chief Justice of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, observed in an early case that came before him as a judge, In civil wars, every man chooses his party; but generally that side which prevails arrogates the right of treating those who are vanquished as rebels. Benjamin Franklin made the point more tellingly when, as he was about to sign the Declaration, he remarked, We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall hang separately.


In suggesting that hanging might be the fate of those who signed the Declaration, Franklin was choosing an easier end than the one traditionally meted out in England to traitors. Traitors were subject to the ferocious and gruesome punishment of being hanged, drawn, and quartered, reflecting the ancient judgment that a single death was an inadequate response to the crime of plotting the king's death or seeking to overturn the established order.


In the weeks preceding the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress became concerned about colonists, often referred to as loyalists or Tories, who continued to side with the Crown. Congress passed a resolution in June 1776 urging the legislatures of the several United Colonies to enact legislation punishing all persons resident within the jurisdiction of each colony who, entitled to the protection of its laws, nevertheless waged war, or adhered to the King of Great Britain, or gave aid and comfort to the British army.

iustitia
12-23-2013, 03:54 PM
The Founding Fathers were indeed traitors to the Crown.

It's interesting to see the sides, though, taken when discussing the Civil War. By any historical measure, both the North and South were criminally immoral. One side worships nationalism and deifies the man that is Lincoln and the other side wraps themselves in a flag of ignorance and racism thinking it enlightenment and liberty.

Fredy
12-23-2013, 05:29 PM
King George and the Redcoat Army disagreed.


http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote71.htm
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

http://www.nps.gov/revwar/unfinished_revolution/treason.htm

and King George's opinion would have mattered...

if Jefferson had lost.

jillian
12-23-2013, 05:32 PM
Thomas Jefferson wasn't a traitor.

had they lost they would have been considered traitors. the difference between a traitor and a founding father is victory.