Possible new treatment for PTSD and other stuff [Archive]

Peter1469

12-22-2013, 04:58 PM

If this works (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304866904579270390834135678) it may be a godsend to our vets and others with traumatic memories from past events.

Scientists have used electroconvulsive therapy to erase distressing memories in people, part of an ambitious quest to better treat ailments such as mental trauma, psychiatric disorders and drug addiction.

jillian

12-22-2013, 05:01 PM

Cool.

but I wonder how they could erase some memories and not others.

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 05:04 PM

I'd take it. I told devil this the other night. I'd erase the whole fucking thing. Well except the part where I nailed Rodriguez at the Iraqi IP. That was pretty fun.

jillian

12-22-2013, 05:05 PM

I'd take it. I told devil this the other night. I'd erase the whole fucking thing. Well except the part where I nailed Rodriguez at the Iraqi IP. That was pretty fun.

Which brings me to my point. Definitely worth exploring.

GrassrootsConservative

12-22-2013, 05:07 PM

I'd take it. I told devil this the other night. I'd erase the whole fucking thing. Well except the part where I nailed Rodriguez at the Iraqi IP. That was pretty fun.

Deployed your own little unit, eh?

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 05:09 PM

Deployed your own little unit, eh?

I sent the men out on a mission, but they were stopped by an impenetrable barrier.

GrassrootsConservative

12-22-2013, 05:12 PM

I sent the men out on a mission, but they were stopped by an impenetrable barrier.

Some battles were never meant to be won. Did you regroup your men and send them in again at a later point in time?

Dr. Who

12-22-2013, 05:17 PM

If this works (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304866904579270390834135678) it may be a godsend to our vets and others with traumatic memories from past events.

A very old therapy. Not one that is very pleasant, but if it works... I do know however, that it is indiscriminate as to the memories that it erases.

Chris

12-22-2013, 05:23 PM

A very old therapy. Not one that is very pleasant, but if it works... I do know however, that it is indiscriminate as to the memories that it erases.

Was going to say this used to be called electroshock. The article is interesting though, how when you remember, the memory is initially unstable before it reconsolidates. So zap it at the right time, it's gone, they think.

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 05:36 PM

Some battles were never meant to be won. Did you regroup your men and send them in again at a later point in time?

About four or five times.

Back to being crazy, yes, this would help. The military had TRT programs that I know helped a lot of vets. I was looking into it.

Peter1469

12-22-2013, 05:59 PM

A very old therapy. Not one that is very pleasant, but if it works... I do know however, that it is indiscriminate as to the memories that it erases.

This is not the old electric shock therapy (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-therapy/MY00129).

ECT is much safer today and is given to people while they're under general anesthesia. Although ECT still causes some side effects, it now uses electrical currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks.

I imagine that @Adelaide (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=473) has heard about it.

Ethereal

12-22-2013, 08:04 PM

Nothing novel about this treatment. Evidence of its efficacy is murky, especially in the long term.

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 08:04 PM

Nothing novel about this treatment. Evidence of its efficacy is murky, especially in the long term.

What do you mean? It's not worth a try?

Chris

12-22-2013, 08:07 PM

What do you mean? It's not worth a try?

From the article: "A lot more work needs to be done. It isn't clear whether the memory erasure is temporary or permanent. And while the technique might work for simple stories, it needs to be shown that it also works for real-world traumatic memories."

So it's still at the early experimental stages.

The next paragraph may hold more promise: "Some researchers looking to move beyond ECT are now also experimenting with propranolol, which inhibits the actions of a hormone that enhances memory consolidation. This summer, Dr. Nader hopes to test the drug in about 50 patients suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder."

Ethereal

12-22-2013, 08:09 PM

What do you mean? It's not worth a try?

I don't think so, no. There are already effective treatment options available that don't involve running electric current through your brain.

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 08:11 PM

Well fuck it. Wellbutrin here I come.

Codename Section

12-22-2013, 08:17 PM

I don't think so, no. There are already effective treatment options available that don't involve running electric current through your brain.

Wait. I forgot that shit you were telling me about the other day. I'll hold off on the Wellbutrin.

Max Rockatansky

12-22-2013, 08:37 PM

If this works (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304866904579270390834135678) it may be a godsend to our vets and others with traumatic memories from past events.

Yes, it would be a godsend if it works....given there are no debilitating side-effects. Electroshock Treatment has been refined since the 1950s, but it still smokes parts of the brain.

I'm reminded of Matthew 16:26
And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?

Curing a medical issue is one thing, but destroying who you are in the process is too much like "the operation was a success but the patient died".

Peter1469

12-22-2013, 09:17 PM

Yes, it would be a godsend if it works....given there are no debilitating side-effects. Electroshock Treatment has been refined since the 1950s, but it still smokes parts of the brain.

I'm reminded of Matthew 16:26
And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?

Curing a medical issue is one thing, but destroying who you are in the process is too much like "the operation was a success but the patient died".

This is not the old electric shock therapy (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-therapy/MY00129).

ECT is much safer today and is given to people while they're under general anesthesia. Although ECT still causes some side effects, it now uses electrical currents given in a controlled setting to achieve the most benefit with the fewest possible risks.

shaarona

12-23-2013, 12:37 AM

This is not the old electric shock therapy (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-therapy/MY00129).

I knew a doctor who had worked closely with Thigpen in the 1950s at the Medical College of Georgia in electroshock therapy .. By the time I knew him, he had renounced it.

oceanloverOH

12-23-2013, 01:11 AM

Yes, it would be a godsend if it works....given there are no debilitating side-effects. Electroshock Treatment has been refined since the 1950s, but it still smokes parts of the brain.

I'm reminded of Matthew 16:26
And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?

Curing a medical issue is one thing, but destroying who you are in the process is too much like "the operation was a success but the patient died".

I agree. There's no way I'd go messing with electricity shooting through my brain. It's too iffy. After all, what is a stroke but an electrical event in the brain; a misfire that deprives part of the brain with blood? I WANT to remember my 5th birthday party. I WANT to remember my first kiss at age 12. I WANT to remember being pregnant and delivering my son. I WANT to remember him marrying the girl of his dreams. No, I think I would try something else.

fyrenza

12-23-2013, 01:29 AM

If this works (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304866904579270390834135678) it may be a godsend to our vets and others with traumatic memories from past events.

OH. MY. EVERLY-DOOTIN' GOD!!!

That is ELECTRO SHOCK therapy,
which was OUTLAWED about FIFTY FUCKING YEARS AGO!!!

Ever heard of POT???

'Shrooms???

THAT's how to "forget," and you can target specific MOMENTS,
without losing entire blocks of time.

If you don't want to use drugs,
try alpha-wave therapy.

You think this shit is just going to "reset" those memory cells,
but it will take away a BUNCH of things that you have attached to them.

I vote NO. @Perianne ? What's YOUR opinion of this?

fyrenza

12-23-2013, 01:32 AM

oops. as usual, i only read the first line of the OP ... brb with my Apology Tour

fyrenza

12-23-2013, 01:43 AM

i lied. i need to go to bed for a little while, so i won't exactly be RIGHT back ...

Peter1469

12-23-2013, 06:02 AM

I knew a doctor who had worked closely with Thigpen in the 1950s at the Medical College of Georgia in electroshock therapy .. By the time I knew him, he had renounced it.

I think most if not all docs do.

This is different.

Peter1469

12-23-2013, 06:03 AM

OH. MY. EVERLY-DOOTIN' GOD!!!

That is ELECTRO SHOCK therapy,
which was OUTLAWED about FIFTY FUCKING YEARS AGO!!!

Ever heard of POT???

'Shrooms???

THAT's how to "forget," and you can target specific MOMENTS,
without losing entire blocks of time.

If you don't want to use drugs,
try alpha-wave therapy.

You think this shit is just going to "reset" those memory cells,
but it will take away a BUNCH of things that you have attached to them.

I vote NO. @Perianne ? What's YOUR opinion of this?

It is different from electric shock therapy.

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 06:11 AM

oops. as usual, i only read the first line of the OP ... brb with my Apology Tour

Nevertheless, I'm interested in the "pot treatment" for PTSD.

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 06:23 AM

This is not the old electric shock therapy (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/electroconvulsive-therapy/MY00129).
It is different from electric shock therapy.

Different in that it is "new and improved". I'd still be reluctant to use it except as a last resort until they've run a few more guinea pigs through first. :)

Although ECT is generally safe, risks and side effects may include:

Confusion. Immediately after an ECT treatment, you may experience a period of confusion that can last from a few minutes to several hours. You may not know where you are or why you're there. You may be able to return to normal activities right away, or you may need to rest for several hours after treatment. Rarely, confusion may last several days or longer. Confusion is generally more noticeable in older adults.

Memory loss. ECT can affect memory in several ways. You may have trouble remembering events that occurred before treatment began, a condition known as retrograde amnesia. It may be hard to remember things in the weeks or months leading up to treatment, although some people do have problems with memories from previous years, as well. You may also have trouble recalling events that occurred during the weeks of your treatment. And some people have trouble with memory of events that occur even after ECT has stopped. These memory problems usually improve within a couple of months.

Physical side effects. On the days you have an ECT treatment, you may experience nausea, vomiting, headache, jaw pain, muscle ache or muscle spasms. These generally can be treated with medications.

Medical complications. As with any type of medical procedure, especially one that involves anesthesia, there are risks of medical complications. During ECT, heart rate and blood pressure increase, and in rare cases, that can lead to serious heart problems. If you have heart problems, ECT may be more risky.

jillian

12-23-2013, 06:31 AM

Different in that it is "new and improved". I'd still be reluctant to use it except as a last resort until they've run a few more guinea pigs through first. :)

i think if someone's life is being made unlivable, they're more willing to try something that may not be fully worked out.

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 06:39 AM

i think if someone's life is being made unlivable, they're more willing to try something that may not be fully worked out.

Agreed, hence "last resort". Beats suicide, eh?

jillian

12-23-2013, 06:46 AM

Agreed, hence "last resort". Beats suicide, eh?

pretty much. we may lose as many as 22 vets and active duty personnel a day to suicide.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/02/05/22-the-number-of-veterans-who-now-commit-suicide-every-day/

if there is something that can help, then it should absolutely be incorporated into the arsenal of treatments. (although, i'd suggest before anyone pursue an extreme remedy, that the military actually get its act together and make sure the VA doesn't have a waiting list for their people who need help).

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 06:49 AM

pretty much. we may lose as many as 22 vets and active duty personnel a day to suicide.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/02/05/22-the-number-of-veterans-who-now-commit-suicide-every-day/

if there is something that can help, then it should absolutely be incorporated into the arsenal of treatments. (although, i'd suggest before anyone pursue an extreme remedy, that the military actually get its act together and make sure the VA doesn't have a waiting list for their people who need help).

Agreed. It's a viable option, but I'd still look at it as a last resort until more research has been completed.

On a side note, part of the problem with the VA is funding. Another part is it is a good example of socialized medicine. :D

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/12/21/veterans-government-healthcare-obama-column/3896939/
"If you really want to know what Obamacare is going to be like, just look at the VA system."

jillian

12-23-2013, 06:57 AM

Agreed. It's a viable option, but I'd still look at it as a last resort until more research has been completed.

On a side note, part of the problem with the VA is funding. Another part is it is a good example of socialized medicine. :D

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/12/21/veterans-government-healthcare-obama-column/3896939/
"If you really want to know what Obamacare is going to be like, just look at the VA system."

you've raised two different issues.

1. yes, it's an issue of funding. the sequester did a lot of damage. i don't think the president realized that the right didn't give a rat's patoot what kind of damage was done to people by it. the answer would be proper funding for our government programs -- something that could probably be worked out by getting rid of tax loopholes and going back to the tax rates before bush lowered them and waged two wars of choice.

2. no, "socialized medical care" has nothing to do with the ACA. the "marketplace" was used for the ACA, just like the heritage foundation wanted. and i don't see anyone saying our medical care should be delivered by government doctors.

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 07:06 AM

you've raised two different issues.

Yes and both those problems still exist. It's not the first time and I don't blame this Presidential administration for creating a problem that has existed throughout the VA's 83 year history. All to often, the public's concern with veterans begins with a parade sending them off to war and yellow-ribbon laced parade welcoming them home. Outside of that, most people don't give a shit.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/08/04/too_tired_to_care_about_va_scandal_119492.html

An unknown number of U.S. military veterans are dead within 30 days of contracting Legionnaires' disease in a Veterans Affairs hospital in Pittsburgh.

Aside from their family members, few people seem to be outraged.

......Washington politics is no friend to the soldier: It is deaf to the VA scandal that has happened in Pittsburgh. It is deaf to the impact of reducing military readiness as it debates national defense in an age of austerity — something many career military men passionately believe will bring about the slow decay of ground-force readiness and render American servicemen and -women unprepared for the next military conflict.

Soldiers are the purest example of valor and sacrifice; every moment of their service, even the mundane ones, has great meaning and purpose. The only thing that protects our country and the freedoms we enjoy is the resolution and discipline of a well-led American soldier.

How can we stand by and not hold accountable those who neglected our veterans, whose love of God and country inspired them to serve and preserve our country's people and our fundamental liberties?

jillian

12-23-2013, 07:14 AM

Yes and both those problems still exist. It's not the first time and I don't blame this Presidential administration for creating a problem that has existed throughout the VA's 83 year history. All to often, the public's concern with veterans begins with a parade sending them off to war and yellow-ribbon laced parade welcoming them home. Outside of that, most people don't give a shit.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/08/04/too_tired_to_care_about_va_scandal_119492.html

the funding problem absolutely exists. the people who serve should be cared for quickly and with skill. i'm not quite sure people go all rah rah when they send kids to fight but then run around preaching cuts that hurt those kids when they come back.

what the reasons are, i can't speak to. although i suspect the fact that only 1% of the population serves has something to do with it. it everyone knew someone hurt and waiting for assistance, i suspect there'd be a lot more noise. people simply aren't vested in it. i don't think it's any type of intentional mean-spiritedness. but i am glad for those organizations that make noise about the issue and, at least, raise the type of awareness that sets things in motion.

Max Rockatansky

12-23-2013, 07:43 AM

the funding problem absolutely exists. the people who serve should be cared for quickly and with skill. i'm not quite sure people go all rah rah when they send kids to fight but then run around preaching cuts that hurt those kids when they come back.

what the reasons are, i can't speak to. although i suspect the fact that only 1% of the population serves has something to do with it. it everyone knew someone hurt and waiting for assistance, i suspect there'd be a lot more noise. people simply aren't vested in it. i don't think it's any type of intentional mean-spiritedness. but i am glad for those organizations that make noise about the issue and, at least, raise the type of awareness that sets things in motion.

Agreed. It's not malice, just indifference.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. -- Elie Wiesel

jillian

12-23-2013, 07:45 AM

Agreed. It's not malice, just indifference.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. -- Elie Wiesel

exactly right.

and the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation.

-- jonathan larson, Rent

Alyosha

12-23-2013, 09:04 AM

There are other treatments but the US won't approve them for political reasons. Studies have shown that marijuana, MDMA, and magic mushrooms have all had extended effects in treating PTSD. The problem is that the public perceives these as "fun drugs" and unless it's alcohol people shouldn't have fun.

Ref. Johns Hopkins University and University of Arizona studies (too lazy to link now).

Before I would let ANY vet I know do this type of therapy I would take them out of country and try something that I myself have done and I know is not life-threatening. Memory loss shouldn't be a therapy. Dealing with the memory should be the therapy.

oceanloverOH

12-23-2013, 11:20 AM