THIS!!!! Is why I am Pro-Life!!

[Boris The Animal]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/lori-ziganto/feminists-rejoice-at-idea-of-abortion-for-convenience/

I have heard every conceivable (no pun intended) excuse for why women feel the need to "get rid" of their offspring.

[countryboy]

Man, there are some sick puppies in this world. Abortion for convenience.....yay. :puke:

[Boris The Animal]

Man, there are some sick puppies in this world. Abortion for convenience.....yay. :puke:According to the late Dr. C. Everett Koop, 95% of all abortions performed are not really necessary. Not to mention Roe was just plain bad Constitutionally in that it takes this issue away from the legislative process.

[Captain Obvious]

With the widespread availability of cheap, effective birth control, how is it not a "choice" of convenience?

[countryboy]

According to the late Dr. C. Everett Koop, 95% of all abortions performed are not really necessary. Not to mention Roe was just plain bad Constitutionally in that it takes this issue away from the legislative process.
Yep, another "found" Constitutional right, that isn't there. Clearly from a Constitutional standpoint, this should have been left up to the states.

[Chloe]

Being against abortion is your own personal choice just like it's a choice to have an abortion for someone else. A lot of you guys that are so passionately against abortion are so quick to want abortion outlawed and to force a woman to carry to term but yet once that baby is born to that woman that you have never met it seems like those same proponents of making her carry like that are nowhere to be found after the fact. That's the true "convenience". Make people do something that they don't want to do with their own body but then never lift a finger for that person once the baby enters the world. If you don't want to have an abortion that's fine, great for you, but don't pretend to know what's going on in someone else's life and judge them for it. They make their decisions and you make yours. That's all what "choice" actually is when it comes to abortion. We are all pro-choice since we all choose freely to start a family or to wait if it's not the right time.

[Boris The Animal]

Being against abortion is your own personal choice just like it's a choice to have an abortion for someone else. A lot of you guys that are so passionately against abortion are so quick to want abortion outlawed and to force a woman to carry to term but yet once that baby is born to that woman that you have never met it seems like those same proponents of making her carry like that are nowhere to be found after the fact. That's the true "convenience". Make people do something that they don't want to do with their own body but then never lift a finger for that person once the baby enters the world. If you don't want to have an abortion that's fine, great for you, but don't pretend to know what's going on in someone else's life and judge them for it. They make their decisions and you make yours. That's all what "choice" actually is when it comes to abortion. We are all pro-choice since we all choose freely to start a family or to wait if it's not the right time.What a pantload of bullshit I don't know where to start. So yu openly and freely advocate the slaughter of our most innocent of persons, the unborn child. That's where your problem is. You assign "personhood"!

[Chris]

Being against abortion is your own personal choice just like it's a choice to have an abortion for someone else. A lot of you guys that are so passionately against abortion are so quick to want abortion outlawed and to force a woman to carry to term but yet once that baby is born to that woman that you have never met it seems like those same proponents of making her carry like that are nowhere to be found after the fact. That's the true "convenience". Make people do something that they don't want to do with their own body but then never lift a finger for that person once the baby enters the world. If you don't want to have an abortion that's fine, great for you, but don't pretend to know what's going on in someone else's life and judge them for it. They make their decisions and you make yours. That's all what "choice" actually is when it comes to abortion. We are all pro-choice since we all choose freely to start a family or to wait if it's not the right time.

Chloe, you seem to take a stance against making choices for others especially regarding their body, and I agree, but you don't seem to want to extend that stance against doing the same to the unborn, while I do.

[Boris The Animal]

Chloe, you seem to take a stance against making choices for others especially regarding their body, and I agree, but you don't seem to want to extend that stance against doing the same to the unborn, while I do.
And notice how since the rise of Operation Rescue and subsequent mass demonstrations like the 1992 Spring Of Life (that I participated in) that occurred, the Leftists in charge insisted on "bubble zones" and the like.

[Chloe]

What a pantload of bullshit I don't know where to start. So yu openly and freely advocate the slaughter of our most innocent of persons, the unborn child. That's where your problem is. You assign "personhood"!

ugh. All I said is that you have no say over my body, none. You can't touch my body, you can't alter my body, and you can't make me carry a baby to full term to satisfy your own personal principles. Don't have an abortion if you are ever put in that position, that's your choice, just like I would not choose to have an abortion either, however, I'm not going to tell some woman in California or Texas or wherever what she can or can't do with her body and her decision to grow her family, and neither can you or should you. Get it?

[Boris The Animal]

ugh. All I said it that you have no say over my body, none. You can't touch my body, you can't alter my body, and you can't make me carry a baby to full term to satisfy your own personal principles. Don't have an abortion if you are ever put in that position, that's your choice, just like I would not choose to have an abortion either, however, I'm not going to tell some woman in California or Texas or wherever what she can or can't do with her body and her decision to grow her family, and neither can you or should you. Get it?
And you don't get it either. You believe the lie that that unborn child is merely a tumor, something to be excised at the mother's whim. Abortion is the epitome of selfishness, pure and simple.

[jillian]

ugh. All I said it that you have no say over my body, none. You can't touch my body, you can't alter my body, and you can't make me carry a baby to full term to satisfy your own personal principles. Don't have an abortion if you are ever put in that position, that's your choice, just like I would not choose to have an abortion either, however, I'm not going to tell some woman in California or Texas or wherever what she can or can't do with her body and her decision to grow her family, and neither can you or should you. Get it?

the radical righties are all about "freedom" except when it comes to telling others what to do with their own bodies.

same old same old… radical religious right.

and pay particular attention about how most of the anti-choice activists are men…. and how they don't want contraception readily available.

it's not abut life… or they'd make sure to disincentivize abortion instead of forcing women to become incubators. but no, they cut aid to dependent children, refuse to pay for daycare so mom can work or stay in school.

it's about nothing but trying to return to the 1950's and punish the harlots.

then they'll tell us they're for small government.

[Chloe]

And you don't get it either. You believe the lie that that unborn child is merely a tumor, something to be excised at the mother's whim. Abortion is the epitome of selfishness, pure and simple.

not what I believe at all. Sometimes abortion can be the best choice for a woman or family. In my opinion it's more selfish and harmful forcing women to carry and hope for the best simply because if would make you happy.

[Chris]

And notice how since the rise of Operation Rescue and subsequent mass demonstrations like the 1992 Spring Of Life (that I participated in) that occurred, the Leftists in charge insisted on "bubble zones" and the like.

Well, while we agree on this, perhaps giving them a bubble would be more persuasive. I remember in the 90s the way some argued was real dissuasive. Just sayin'.

[jillian]

And you don't get it either. You believe the lie that that unborn child is merely a tumor, something to be excised at the mother's whim. Abortion is the epitome of selfishness, pure and simple.

your religious judgments are your own.

most people can barely govern their own lives. how about you stay out of everyone else's?

[Chris]

the radical righties are all about "freedom" except when it comes to telling others what to do with their own bodies.

same old same old… radical religious right.

and pay particular attention about how most of the anti-choice activists are men…. and how they don't want contraception readily available.

it's not abut life… or they'd make sure to disincentivize abortion instead of forcing women to become incubators. but no, they cut aid to dependent children, refuse to pay for daycare so mom can work or stay in school.

it's about nothing but trying to return to the 1950's and punish the harlots.

then they'll tell us they're for small government.

And what of the unborn and their bodies? Your demand for rights seems to end with you alone. Radical statist left.

[Boris The Animal]

not what I believe at all. Sometimes abortion can be the best choice for a woman or family. In my opinion it's more selfish and harmful forcing women to carry and hope for the best simply because if would make you happy.Sure it is. You, along with the rest of the feminazis assign "personhood" to a "wanted" child, and consider any aborted child to be garbage. Exactly the way Hitler treated the non-Aryans.

[Boris The Animal]

your religious judgments are your own.

most people can barely govern their own lives. how about you stay out of everyone else's?
So you think that people of faith should just shut up, right, Commie?

[Chloe]

Sure it is. You, along with the rest of the feminazis assign "personhood" to a "wanted" child, and consider any aborted child to be garbage. Exactly the way Hitler treated the non-Aryans.

Ugh you're an asshole

[Chris]

not what I believe at all. Sometimes abortion can be the best choice for a woman or family. In my opinion it's more selfish and harmful forcing women to carry and hope for the best simply because if would make you happy.


That can be true, it can be selfish and harmful to only consider the unborn, or only consider the woman. I don't think it's an easy decision, it shouldn't be.

[jillian]

So you think that people of faith should just shut up, right, Commie?

i think you should worry about yourself and leave everyone else alone.

your religion has zip, zero, nada, to do with our constitutional rights.

but i do love how people who think health insurance violates their constitutional rights thinks it's ok to tell grown women what to do with their bodies.

[Chloe]

That can be true, it can be selfish and harmful to only consider the unborn, or only consider the woman. I don't think it's an easy decision, it shouldn't be.

Which is why it should be a decision for the one or two people involved in the pregnancy and not Boris' or anybody elses

[Chris]

Sure it is. You, along with the rest of the feminazis assign "personhood" to a "wanted" child, and consider any aborted child to be garbage. Exactly the way Hitler treated the non-Aryans.


Ugh you're an asshole



Well, Boris, even if you were 100% right, you lost the argument.

[Chloe]

Against my better judgment I got involved in an abortion thread with Boris. I'll probably be thread banned for calling him an asshole but it is what it is now. I don't take it back.

[jillian]

Sure it is. You, along with the rest of the feminazis assign "personhood" to a "wanted" child, and consider any aborted child to be garbage. Exactly the way Hitler treated the non-Aryans.


what's a feminize, dear? (aside from a word rushbot told you to use). a woman who makes more money than you?

you should probably get over it.

and your religion doesn't dictate anyone else's action but your own.

[Boris The Animal]

Ugh you're an asshole
Damned RIGHT! That's Mister Asshole to you!! I cannot sit idly by and continue watching entire generations of children being butchered at the altar of convenience.

[Boris The Animal]

i think you should worry about yourself and leave everyone else alone.

your religion has zip, zero, nada, to do with our constitutional rights.

but i do love how people who think health insurance violates their constitutional rights thinks it's ok to tell grown women what to do with their bodies.Actually, Marxist, you're wrong. The US constitution protects religion and the free exercise thereof.

[Chris]

Which is why it should be a decision for the one or two people involved in the pregnancy and not Boris' or anybody elses



Certainly not a strangers, on a forum, no.

But, like it or not, our choices are greatly influenced by the greater society around us

[Boris The Animal]

Well, Boris, even if you were 100% right, you lost the argument.How? By equating the modern holocaust to its Historical counterpart?

[Chloe]

Damned RIGHT! That's Mister Asshole to you!! I cannot sit idly by and continue watching entire generations of children being butchered at the altar of convenience.

Dont forget to bring flowers to the hospital when you go to visit and offer personal assistance to all of those mothers that you forced to carry. You do care about those individual babies after they are born right? Uncle Boris?

[Boris The Animal]

Dont forget to bring flowers to the hospital when you go to visit and offer personal assistance to all of those mothers that you forced to carry. You do care about those individual babies after they are born right? Uncle Boris?Which is why we have crisis pregnancy centers. They care for the mothers and their children long after the children are born.

[Chris]

How? By equating the modern holocaust to its Historical counterpart?

No, by using that old 90's belligerency. Like I said, it's very dissuasive. It doesn't change minds, it makes people dig their heels in. Chloe is a very reasonable person to just talk to. You blew it.

[Boris The Animal]

No, by using that old 90's belligerency. Like I said, it's very dissuasive. It doesn't change minds, it makes people dig their heels in. Chloe is a very reasonable person to just talk to. You blew it.
Reasonable and Liberal is a total oxymoron. There is no such thing as a "reasonable" Liberal

[Chloe]

Which is why we have crisis pregnancy centers. They care for the mothers and their children long after the children are born.

Oh I see its too much of an inconvenience for you personally in spite of the fact that it would be your wishful policies that put those mothers in the circumstances to have to search for long term care. As long as they are born though right? Who cares after that. What a jerk.

[Boris The Animal]

Oh I see its too much of an inconvenience for you personally in spite of the fact that it would be your wishful policies that put those mothers in the circumstances to have to search for long term care. As long as they are born though right? Who cares after that. What a jerk.
How about the fact that the feminist movement has effectively destroyed the traditional family, along with the idealism of the 1960s hippie movement. Not to mention that if we encourage marriage over career, then society would be far better off.

[Chris]

Reasonable and Liberal is a total oxymoron. There is no such thing as a "reasonable" Liberal

You're being unreasonable.

[Boris The Animal]

You're being unreasonable.
I don't give a shit about being reasonable with the enemy. As far as I am concerned, Liberals today are all about destroying the United States of America.

[Chloe]

How about the fact that the feminist movement has effectively destroyed the traditional family, along with the idealism of the 1960s hippie movement. Not to mention that if we encourage marriage over career, then society would be far better off.

The traditional family doesn't exist except for in nostalgia. Families evolve and change over time and with circumstance. As long as the family is happy then who cares what label it has or who has the career.

[Chloe]

I don't give a shit about being reasonable with the enemy. As far as I am concerned, Liberals today are all about destroying the United States of America.

You don't give a shit about anything or anybody other than you and your holier than thou and oppressive ideology. The enemy? Seriously?

[jillian]

I don't give a shit about being reasonable with the enemy. As far as I am concerned, Liberals today are all about destroying the United States of America.

only someone insane thinks anyone who disagrees with him is "the enemy".

liberals BUILT the united states of america. conservatives have never, ever, ever created anything. in revolutionary days, you'd have been tories.

[Boris The Animal]

The traditional family doesn't exist except for in nostalgia. Families evolve and change over time and with circumstance. As long as the family is happy then who cares what label it has or who has the career.
And children suffer from gender role confusion in the meantime. No wonder the rabid homosexuals want this as well.

[Boris The Animal]

You don't give a shit about anything or anybody other than you and your holier than thou and oppressive ideology. The enemy? Seriously?Damned right Liberals are the enemy!

[jillian]

You're being unreasonable.

to be reasonable, one has to be capable of reason.

[Boris The Animal]

only someone insane thinks anyone who disagrees with him is "the enemy".

liberals BUILT the united states of america. conservatives have never, ever, ever created anything. in revolutionary days, you'd have been tories.Yep. Stopping Liberals from turning the US into another Euroweenie Socialist paradise.

[Boris The Animal]

to be reasonable, one has to be capable of reason.As you sure as hell don't, Commie.

[Chloe]

And children suffer from gender role confusion in the meantime. No wonder the rabid homosexuals want this as well.

Oh my god you're insane. Gender confusion? Rabid homosexuals? And you are the voice of the pro-life movement? You clearly hate life.

[jillian]

And children suffer from gender role confusion in the meantime. No wonder the rabid homosexuals want this as well.

who are you to decide what "roles" anyone else is supposed to play?

but now the reason for your radical and rabid positions on women's ability to control their own bodies is clear. gotta keep 'em barefoot and pregnant, right chico?

[Chloe]

Damned right Liberals are the enemy!

Youre either a complete joke or the biggest ass hole on the planet, or you could be both. When you see half of Americans as the enemy then there is something wrong with you...not the country.

[jillian]

Yep. Stopping Liberals from turning the US into another Euroweenie Socialist paradise.

except you and yours keep losing because you and yours sound kind of off the hook. you know, like unable to put two rational thoughts together.

normal people hear the things people like you say and decide voting for people of whom you would approve would be insane.

so keep on speaking.

while we win every national election until the GOP cuts people like you loose.

[Boris The Animal]

except you and yours keep losing because you and yours sound kind of off the hook. you know, like unable to put two rational thoughts together.

normal people hear the things people like you say and decide voting for people of whom you would approve would be insane.

so keep on speaking.

while we win every national election until the GOP cuts people like you loose.Oh, so we have nothing but Dumbshit Liberal Communists like you and a totally compliant bitch of an "opposition" party?

[Boris The Animal]

Youre either a complete joke or the biggest ass hole on the planet, or you could be both. When you see half of Americans as the enemy then there is something wrong with you...not the country.

But that just it, Liberals are not real Americans. they (you) belong in leftist dictatorships like Cuba or North Korea where your "spread the wealth" ideology is welcome.

[jillian]

Oh, so we have nothing but Dumbshit Liberal Communists like you and a totally compliant bitch of an "opposition" party?

you haven't a clue what communism is. (i don't believe in it).

you have no idea what liberalism is (since you think it's anything to the left of ghengis khan)

and you certainly aren't in a position to judge anyone else's intellect.

[Chloe]

But that just it, Liberals are not real Americans. they (you) belong in leftist dictatorships like Cuba or North Korea where your "spread the wealth" ideology is welcome.

Yeah ooook

[jillian]

But that just it, Liberals are not real Americans. they (you) belong in leftist dictatorships like Cuba or North Korea where your "spread the wealth" ideology is welcome.

i think you'd probably be happier living in putin's russia. your idea of what the US is… isn't rationally related to anything in our history.

[Boris The Animal]

Since I've been jacked from my own frigging thread about something I am extremely passionate about, I figured, might as well pick up where we left off. Since I consider modern day liberalism to be the greatest threat to the Republic, this is why I consider Democrats the enemies of America and all she stood for!

[Chloe]

Well I'm not a democrat so I guess I'm safe from your insanity.

[Boris The Animal]

Well I'm not a democrat so I guess I'm safe from your insanity.
Not really, Any Leftwingnut is an enemy of America.

[Chloe]

Not really, Any Leftwingnut is an enemy of America.

Oh ok thanks for the clarification

[Boris The Animal]

Oh ok thanks for the clarification
When you renounce Liberalism and become Conservative, then you become an ally. Until then, all bets are off.

[The Xl]

I abhor abortion, but it's hard to argue against it from a natural or Constitutional rights perspective, so long as it can't stay alive outside the womb.

[Chloe]

When you renounce Liberalism and become Conservative, then you become an ally. Until then, all bets are off.

I don't really make it a point to play in or with trash so I guess I won't ever subscribe to your brand of politics or beliefs. Sorry.

[The Xl]

But that just it, Liberals are not real Americans. they (you) belong in leftist dictatorships like Cuba or North Korea where your "spread the wealth" ideology is welcome.

If you're a traditional conservative and not a libertarian, I'm sure you have some "spread the wealth" in you, too.

[jillian]

I abhor abortion, but it's hard to argue against it from a natural or Constitutional rights perspective, so long as it can't stay alive outside the womb.

the only point of people who are pro-choice is not that everyone should have an abortion. it's that everyone should have the right to make their own moral decisions about what is done with their bodies. it isn't government's place to do that for us.

[The Xl]

When you renounce Liberalism and become Conservative, then you become an ally. Until then, all bets are off.

Conservatives and the Republican party are just as statist as the left.

[jillian]

Oh ok thanks for the clarification

i'm sure he thinks he defending "democratic" ideals.

[jillian]

Conservatives and the Republican party are just as statist as the left.

you think someone like him is the same as someone on the left?

really?

[The Xl]

the only point of people who are pro-choice is not that everyone should have an abortion. it's that everyone should have the right to make their own moral decisions about what is done with their bodies. it isn't government's place to do that for us.

I think the mother has the right to not have a baby inside her, and if said baby cannot survive on its own, it is what it is, sad as it may be. However, if the baby can life on it's own, that's another story imo.

[Boris The Animal]

Conservatives and the Republican party are just as statist as the left.
No, Democrats and Liberals are worse!

[The Xl]

you think someone like him is the same as someone on the left?

really?

On most issues, yeah. Not abortion, though.

[The Xl]

No, Democrats and Liberals are worse!

Nah, Republicans redistribute wealth and shit on the Constitution just as bad.

[jillian]

I think the mother has the right to not have a baby inside her, and if said baby cannot survive on its own, it is what it is, sad as it may be. However, if the baby can life on it's own, that's another story imo.

i doubt anyone is happy about it (though no doubt some people are more cavalier about it than others). the idea is for abortion to be legal, widely available and little used.

but the same people who are anti-choice are anti-contraception… and anti sex ed and anti women's health care.

that should tell anyone of good intentions what the agenda really is.

[jillian]

Nah, Republicans redistribute wealth and shit on the Constitution just as bad.

might be… but they redistribute it to people who don't need the redistribution. that's morally reprehensible imo.

[The Xl]

i doubt anyone is happy about it (though no doubt some people are more cavalier about it than others). the idea is for abortion to be legal, widely available and little used.

but the same people who are anti-choice are anti-contraception… and anti sex ed and anti women's health care.

that should tell anyone of good intentions what the agenda really is.

Right, and I think abortion should be legal unless the baby is capable of surviving.

I don't like abortion, but I'm not trying to impose my will on anyone.

[The Xl]

might be… but they redistribute it to people who don't need the redistribution. that's morally reprehensible imo.

Both sides do that. The left does it to.

My issue here is Boris going hard at and acting like a douche towards Chloe when he supports an equal brand of redistribution and statism. It's hypocritical.

[jillian]

On most issues, yeah. Not abortion, though.


not on abortion

not on marriage equality

not on racial issues

not on voting rights issues

not on immigration

not on economic issues

not on education issues

not on judiciary issues

not on environmental issues

i'm kind of running out of issues here… seeing far more differences than similarities.

and the similarities largely stem from the need to raise money in perpetuity for election and re-election.

citizens united (which again, wouldn't have occurred with a left leaning majority) made sure that will only get worse.

[jillian]

Right, and I think abortion should be legal unless the baby is capable of surviving.

I don't like abortion, but I'm not trying to impose my will on anyone.

and i respect that.

and i would never suggest to someone who has objections that they would *have* to terminate a pregnancy.

everyone should have the right to their own conscience.

[Boris The Animal]

Nah, Republicans redistribute wealth and shit on the Constitution just as bad.Here's the problem. Democrats see big daddy government as the end all be all to America's problems and have this "fix it even if it ain't broke" mentality. this is why we have the colossal waste of money, lives, and resources called "The Great Society". Ever since Wilson, Democrats have aligned themselves more to Marx and Engels than in the Founders.

[Boris The Animal]

Both sides do that. The left does it to.

My issue here is Boris going hard at and acting like a douche towards Chloe when he supports an equal brand of redistribution and statism. It's hypocritical.Why is that a problem? I consider all Liberals to be traitors.

[jillian]

Here's the problem. Democrats see big daddy government as the end all be all to America's problems and have this "fix it even if it ain't broke" mentality. this is why we have the colossal waste of money, lives, and resources called "The Great Society". Ever since Wilson, Democrats have aligned themselves more to Marx and Engels than in the Founders.

so the person who thinks the government should reach into women's bodies to force them to carry a pregnancy to term is worried about governmental intrusion?

lol

[jillian]

Both sides do that. The left does it to.

My issue here is Boris going hard at and acting like a douche towards Chloe when he supports an equal brand of redistribution and statism. It's hypocritical.

oh i agree.

[Boris The Animal]

not on abortion

not on marriage equality

not on racial issues

not on voting rights issues

not on immigration

not on economic issues

not on education issues

not on judiciary issues

not on environmental issues

i'm kind of running out of issues here… seeing far more differences than similarities.

and the similarities largely stem from the need to raise money in perpetuity for election and re-election.

citizens united (which again, wouldn't have occurred with a left leaning majority) made sure that will only get worse.You mean if a Republican doesn't agree with the Democrat agenda 100% of the time, eh commie?

[jillian]

You mean if a Republican doesn't agree with the Democrat agenda 100% of the time, eh commie?

what are you talking about? did you read my post? i was pointing out where the left and right are different? was that complicated?

pssst… learn what communism is. it might be helpful to you in not sounding so absurd.

[oceanloverOH]

A second thread, same topic, was created. The threads have been merged. If it happens again, I will close every thread on this topic, current and future.

[The Xl]

not on abortion

not on marriage equality

not on racial issues

not on voting rights issues

not on immigration

not on economic issues

not on education issues

not on judiciary issues

not on environmental issues

i'm kind of running out of issues here… seeing far more differences than similarities.

and the similarities largely stem from the need to raise money in perpetuity for election and re-election.

citizens united (which again, wouldn't have occurred with a left leaning majority) made sure that will only get worse.

A lot of those aren't even true, aside from abortion. You see plenty of Republicans bending on immigration, education and whatnot. Those aren't even big time issues, anyway.

They're both massive cronyists that support the Federal Reserve, redistribution, warfare and imperialistic foreign policy, and both agree on destroying privacy and other civil liberties. On anything that means anything, they agree.

[The Xl]

Here's the problem. Democrats see big daddy government as the end all be all to America's problems and have this "fix it even if it ain't broke" mentality. this is why we have the colossal waste of money, lives, and resources called "The Great Society". Ever since Wilson, Democrats have aligned themselves more to Marx and Engels than in the Founders.

Right, Republicans just want to spend an endless supply of money on wars, to the military industrial complex, bankers, and big business in general. They also did us a great favor with the Patriot Act and a host of other garbage.

[jillian]

A lot of those aren't even true, aside from abortion. You see plenty of Republicans bending on immigration, education and whatnot. Those aren't even big time issues, anyway.

They're both massive cronyists that support the Federal Reserve, redistribution, warfare and imperialistic foreign policy, and both agree on destroying privacy and other civil liberties. On anything that means anything, they agree.

how is it not true? have you looked at the things the GOP has done over the last decade? and what happened with that vote on immigration? it got kibboshed b/c of the radical right.

every issue i listed is different between dems and repubs… there may be exceptions in individual congress members on certain issues.. but not as a whole… certainly not in any significant way that would make me vote for any of them til they drop their right flank.

[The Xl]

how is it not true? have you looked at the things the GOP has done over the last decade? and what happened with that vote on immigration? it got kibboshed b/c of the radical right.

every issue i listed is different between dems and repubs… there may be exceptions in individual congress members on certain issues.. but not as a whole… certainly not in any significant way that would make me vote for any of them til they drop their right flank.

Immigration? Reagan gave them their amnesty already and I don't see a massive deportation movement atm.

Fundamentally, they're nearly the same. Warmongering? Check. Imperialistic foreign policy and crazy military spending? Check Fed Reserve support? Check. Keynesian economics? Check. Cronyism? Check. Etc, etc.

[kilgram]

What a pantload of bullshit I don't know where to start. So yu openly and freely advocate the slaughter of our most innocent of persons, the unborn child. That's where your problem is. You assign "personhood"!
A fetus is not a person.

[jillian]

Immigration? Reagan gave them their amnesty already and I don't see a massive deportation movement atm.

Fundamentally, they're nearly the same. Warmongering? Check. Imperialistic foreign policy and crazy military spending? Check Fed Reserve support? Check. Keynesian economics? Check. Cronyism? Check. Etc, etc.

reagan was more than 30 years ago. this current GOP doesn't remotely resemble that GOP. and reagan couldn't get past the primary today, neither could Nixon, which is really amazing. they'd call him a RINO. (to be fair, in many ways he was probably the most liberal president we've had in my lifetime. if he hadn't been paranoid and criminal, he'd have been considered one of our greatest).

[iustitia]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men"

"Life- the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally."

Just to put things into perspective...

21 killed - Salem 1692
2,260 U.S. KIA - War of 1812
2,271 U.S. KIA - Afghan War 2001 -
3,000 killed - Chile 1973
3,500 killed - Al-Qaeda 1993 - 2001
4,487 U.S. KIA - Iraq War 2003 - 2011
6,000 killed - Sierra Leone 1997
13,000 killed - Argentina 1976 - 1983
13,283 U.S. KIA - Mexican-American War 1846 - 1848
20,000 killed - Zimbabwe 1982 - 1987
20,000 killed - Iran 1979 - 1989
25,000 killed - Syria 1980 - 2000
30,000 killed - Cuba 1959 - 1999
36,574 U.S. KIA -Korean War
58,220 U.S. KIA - Vietnam War
100,000 killed - Yugoslavia 1992 - 1999
116,708 U.S. KIA - WWI 1917 -1918
200,000 killed - Vietnam 1953 - 1956
260,000 C.S. KIA - U.S. Civil War 1861 - 1865
263,000 killed - France 1793 - 1774
365,000 U.S. KIA - U.S. Civil War 1861 - 1865
416,800 U.S. KIA - WWII 1941 - 1945
700,000 killed - Indonesia 1975 - 1998
300,000 killed - Italy 1934 - 1945
800,000 killed - Rwanda 1994
1,000,000 killed - Biafra 1967 - 1970
1,100,000 killed - Nigeria 1966 - 1975
1,500,000 killed - Ethiopia 1974 - 1991
1,600,000 killed - North Korea 1948 - 1994
1,700,000 killed - Cambodia 1963 - 1981
2,500,000 killed - Turkey 1913 - 1919
5,000,000 killed - Japan 1941 - 1944
12,000,000 killed - Germany 1939 - 1945
15,000,000 killed - Belgium 1865 - 1909
23,000,000 killed - U.S.S.R. 1922 - 1953
44,500,000 killed - P.R.C. 1949 - 1975
55,772,015 abortions in America Since Roe v. Wade

Is this life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

[jillian]

and? is that supposed to present us with some bona fides that makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else?

the declaration of independence is not enforceable law. you should probably know that before you talk about rights.

ps. they didn't mean it when they said all men were created equal. they meant all white, male, landed gentry.

[iustitia]

and? is that supposed to present us with some bona fides that makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else?It's meant to put into perspective, though comparison, the true human cost of infanticide. I understand if being confronted with the number of dead makes you uncomfortable, as such a death toll of victims should. One would expect a dismissive response as well, and why not? It's not fun to defend 55 million deaths of convenience. That fact alone should provoke serious reconsideration of one's values.


the declaration of independence is not enforceable law. you should probably know that before you talk about rights.The Declaration of Independence resulted from the Lee Resolution passed by Congress. It actually is law. However, despite the fact that we now function under the Constitution, it should still be the guiding force of government as it declared the very reasons for our own existence. It can be argued that the Declaration of Independence was the first of our Organic Acts. The Constitution was a new compact and merely replaced the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union; it did not erase our history. If nothing before the ratification of the Constitution had standing then the states that ratified it would not exist as independent. You claim to support case law and thus historical precedent, and nothing says precedent like a founding document, yes?


ps. they didn't mean it when they said all men were created equal. they meant all white, male, landed gentry.You might want to do some more reading on the Founding Fathers before libeling them as white-supremacists and misogynists. I suggest reading about the many black heroes of the Revolution, republican motherhood, and that you investigate how many Patriots that fought were rich land-owners.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Here's the problem. Democrats see big daddy government as the end all be all to America's problems and have this "fix it even if it ain't broke" mentality. this is why we have the colossal waste of money, lives, and resources called "The Great Society". Ever since Wilson, Democrats have aligned themselves more to Marx and Engels than in the Founders.
Republicans yearn for a massive government. They just don't brag about it.

[jillian]

It's meant to put into perspective, though comparison, the true human cost of infanticide. I understand if being confronted with the number of dead makes you uncomfortable, as such a death toll of victims should. One would expect a dismissive response as well, and why not? It's not fun to defend 55 million deaths of convenience. That fact alone should provoke serious reconsideration of one's values.

except, once again, it puts nothing in perspective. it's simply false and not in keeping

what infanticide? rolling my eyes at you.

but now we understand. you have every right to your personal beliefs. but the constitution and our laws aren't here to reflect your personal biases.


The Declaration of Independence resulted from the Lee Resolution passed by Congress. It actually is law. However, despite the fact that we now function under the Constitution, it should still be the guiding force of government as it declared the very reasons for our own existence. It can be argued that the Declaration of Independence was the first of our Organic Acts. The Constitution was a new compact and merely replaced the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union; it did not erase our history. If nothing before the ratification of the Constitution had standing then the states that ratified it would not exist as independent. You claim to support case law and thus historical precedent, and nothing says precedent like a founding document, yes?

no. it doesn't set precedent as anything. it is only suggestive. there is no obligation to follow anything it says. case law sets precedent. and only certain types of case law have presidential value. if some county court judge issues a decision, that decision isn't even binding on that county judge's co-workers. only the decisions of higher courts have precedent. in terms of nationally, only the supreme court decisions set forth what every other jurisdiction has to do.

the declaration? a nice document. meaningless in terms of enforceability.

the declaration of independence is an unenforceable document that. while certainly useful, has nothing and i mean ZERO


You might want to do some more reading on the Founding Fathers before libeling them as white-supremacists and misogynists. I suggest reading about the many black heroes of the Revolution, republican motherhood, and that you investigate how many Patriots that fought were rich land-owners.

you might want to learn something about our legal system before you continue this line of argument because it honestly doesn't make any sense from a legal perspective. what does someone fighting

republican motherhood? what does that even mean? rich men always sent poor men to fight wars. it certainly, once again, has zero to do with anything having to do with our government or our legal system. i'm not quite sure who told you it did. but you should give them a piece of your mind.

here's the thing. your pulling unrelated concepts out of the air does not make them valid constitutional assessments.

you have no cites to constitutional sources. i have more than 200 years of case law… and ultimately, that case law is really all that's relevant.

no matter how much people like you try to pretend otherwise.

but, please, tell us again how you should be able to tell me what my constitution (since it's mine, too) means is more valid than what i say it means.

[zelmo1234]

not what I believe at all. Sometimes abortion can be the best choice for a woman or family. In my opinion it's more selfish and harmful forcing women to carry and hope for the best simply because if would make you happy.

Do you think that the father should have any say in the matter?

[zelmo1234]

i think you should worry about yourself and leave everyone else alone.

your religion has zip, zero, nada, to do with our constitutional rights.

but i do love how people who think health insurance violates their constitutional rights thinks it's ok to tell grown women what to do with their bodies.

What I find interesting is that this is onoe of the only things that liberals are pro choice about?

[zelmo1234]

Dont forget to bring flowers to the hospital when you go to visit and offer personal assistance to all of those mothers that you forced to carry. You do care about those individual babies after they are born right? Uncle Boris?

What I find interesting is that it appears that Abortion is the only option for mothers that do not want a child.

We have couple all around the country that go to other countries to adopt children, they might just be willing to take the child.

There is of course the choice not to have sex or to have protected sex,

And then of course there is the fact that we have a welfare system in this country as well as the charitable system.

This is how I can justify it in the situation of rape because it was not the women's choice to become pregnant. but if you decide to go out and party and end up having unprotected sex with someone that you do not know, then you made you choice did you not.

[jillian]

What I find interesting is that this is onoe of the only things that liberals are pro choice about?

actually, we're generally pro individual liberty. we just aren't spoiled brats stamping our feet over things done for the public good. you might want to read the constitutional cases on privacy (which scalia and friends seem not to like) and the 4th amendment (which the right only likes when it applies to them and not to people who don't look like them).

again, my right to exercise dominion over my body is not up for discussion based on your religious views.

your religious views are yours. everyone else should be left alone.

and i can tell you, a bunch of old men certainly shouldn't be telling women what to do about these issues. the highest rate of poverty is among single mothers. the highest levels of hunger and poverty are among children. where are all these wonderful dads who protested in front of abortion clinics and who whine online about ten cells when all these eggs were fertilized. this is about nothing more, nothing less, than punishing the harlots. the people (even on this board) who call women sluts and say disgusting things to and about them want to make the decisions about women's bodies? really.

again, here's an idea… you worry about the 30 ounce soda thing. let everyone else worry about their own morality.

frankly, the people on the right don't do morality very well. you're pro-birth. the right couldn't care less about actual life.

[zelmo1234]

except you and yours keep losing because you and yours sound kind of off the hook. you know, like unable to put two rational thoughts together.

normal people hear the things people like you say and decide voting for people of whom you would approve would be insane.

so keep on speaking.

while we win every national election until the GOP cuts people like you loose.

This I actually find totally amusing. We have in my lifetime. Kennedy/Johnson, and it has been shown that both Kennedy and Johnson did not go along with there party

Then Nixon /Ford, and if Nixon would not have been paranoid, we would never have had Carter, the former worst President in US history!

Then you had 12 years Reagan and Bush 1

Then Clinton who was a liberal for 2 years and then governed center right, including raising taxes on the middle class and giving a huge tax cut to the rich

Then you had Bush 2 which was the second most liberal president in my lifetime, only to be out done by the Bamster.

And yet one would think that conservatives are dead and gone, they are not, it is just that we have gotten stuck in a cycle of running moderates.

[zelmo1234]

I abhor abortion, but it's hard to argue against it from a natural or Constitutional rights perspective, so long as it can't stay alive outside the womb.

You know that thing were we have these right to "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Killing an unborn child take 2 of those 3 rights away.

And it is not the only what that a mother that does not want to raise a child has of getting rid of that child

[jillian]

You know that thing were we have these right to "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Killing an unborn child take 2 of those 3 rights away.

And it is not the only what that a mother that does not want to raise a child has of getting rid of that child

nice words in the unenforceable declaration of independence.

also irrelevant given that ten cells is not a person except in your religious judgment. like i said, perhaps you should govern your own behavior and leave everyone else alone. the right isn't the moral arbiter of anything… particularly when you applaud when these "persons" starve.\

that oughta show 'em.

do you really presume that you're wise enough to make any woman's decision on this issue? i'd never be that arrogant.

now watch the reality:

http://www.upworthy.com/a-dude-trying-to-ban-abortions-is-asked-a-question-he-never-considered-its-so-obvious-it-hurts-8?c=ufb1

none of you give a damn. all you know is you want to impose your theocratic views on everyone else.

[zelmo1234]

you think someone like him is the same as someone on the left?

really?

YES! in that they are very much for forcing their idea of morality on the rest of the population.

While I am totally against abortion I believe in my heart of hearts that it is a states rights issue

At the present time that would leave about half of the states with an anti abortion police or some what restricted policy, and have with a very limited restriction or no restriction at all, so a women could certainly choose to have an abortion!

[zelmo1234]

I think the mother has the right to not have a baby inside her, and if said baby cannot survive on its own, it is what it is, sad as it may be. However, if the baby can life on it's own, that's another story imo.

So under your conditions we should be able to kill kids up until about 3 because up until that time they are really totally dependent on the parents and would die without them

[zelmo1234]

i doubt anyone is happy about it (though no doubt some people are more cavalier about it than others). the idea is for abortion to be legal, widely available and little used.

but the same people who are anti-choice are anti-contraception… and anti sex ed and anti women's health care.

I know of very few people out side of the catholic clergy that are anti contraception. Though I do not feel that I need to pay for it! I also know of very few people that are against sex education if taught correctly and that does not mean abstinence only but not in a way that encourages sex!

that should tell anyone of good intentions what the agenda really is.

[zelmo1234]

might be… but they redistribute it to people who don't need the redistribution. that's morally reprehensible imo.

So how is that bottom up or middle out policy of Obama working out for the poor and middle class?

[Max Rockatansky]

THIS!!!! Is why I am Pro-Life!!




This is why I'm not.

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0905/children-kids-demotivational-poster-1241634313.jpg

[Max Rockatansky]

So under your conditions we should be able to kill kids up until about 3 because up until that time they are really totally dependent on the parents and would die without them
First, he said "inside" the mother. A viable baby can be taken care of by a people other than the mother. A fetus cannot.

There is also the factor of sentience. Overall, the science behind the 24 week limit is reasonable until we come up with a means to determine when a fetus becomes a sentient human being.

[zelmo1234]

nice words in the unenforceable declaration of independence.

also irrelevant given that ten cells is not a person except in your religious judgment. like i said, perhaps you should govern your own behavior and leave everyone else alone. the right isn't the moral arbiter of anything… particularly when you applaud when these "persons" starve.\

that oughta show 'em.

do you really presume that you're wise enough to make any woman's decision on this issue? i'd never be that arrogant.

now watch the reality:

http://www.upworthy.com/a-dude-trying-to-ban-abortions-is-asked-a-question-he-never-considered-its-so-obvious-it-hurts-8?c=ufb1

none of you give a damn. all you know is you want to impose your theocratic views on everyone else.

Really you have a great idea on how I help the poor?

And yes my idea of personhood come from the bible, actually your part of the bible where God tells Abraham that he knew him before he was born!

And you will have to remember that I am a states rights issue, I believe that the people that live in a state should be able to decide

[Mainecoons]

Man, there are some sick puppies in this world. Abortion for convenience.....yay. :puke:

It is well established in the literature that somewhere north of 90 percent of abortions are done for convenience. This statistic has been around quite a while, I'm really surprised that anyone is surprised by it.

The white race is aborting itself out of existence. Look up the numbers on this if you doubt them. In 100 years, we'll be a fading memory in many places.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think convenience is being misused here. It's convenient that I shoot a home invader before he shoots me.

Advocating abortion instead of contraceptives is as stupid as advocating buying a new car every time someone needs an oil change.

There are significant health risk, mental and financial cost factors involved with abortion that do not exist with contraceptives. Obviously best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of pregnancies. This mean education and access to low-cost effective contraceptives. Abortion should only be used as last resort.

[jillian]

I think convenience is being misused here. It's convenient that I shoot a home invader before he shoots me.

Advocating abortion instead of contraceptives is as stupid as advocating buying a new car every time someone needs an oil change.

There are significant health risk, mental and financial cost factors involved with abortion that do not exist with contraceptives. Obviously best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of pregnancies. This mean education and access to low-cost effective contraceptives. Abortion should only be used as last resort.

who is advocating abortion INSTEAD of contraception.

there are fewer health risks in an abortion than in a pregnancy. there are virtually no long term "psychological"or "financial" risks. (far more risk attaches to actually HAVING a child).

but i do agree that education and ready availability of birth control is very important. and the goal should be that abortion should be legal, safe and readily available but a rarely needed option.

[Max Rockatansky]

who is advocating abortion INSTEAD of contraception.

The pro-Lifers are making that accusation, Jillian.

Try not to shoot at everyone just because you think they might disagree with you.

[Chris]

the only point of people who are pro-choice is not that everyone should have an abortion. it's that everyone should have the right to make their own moral decisions about what is done with their bodies. it isn't government's place to do that for us.

Morality has to do with choices of interacting with others. How can a decision that only considers what is done with your body be moral?

Agree, it is not government's place to decide...pro or con.

[Chris]

On most issues, yeah. Not abortion, though.

But, as to your claim, they're both statists, true. The right wants government to make abortion illegal, the left wants it to keep it legal. In that dependence on the state to make social decisions, they are both statist.

[Chris]

might be… but they redistribute it to people who don't need the redistribution. that's morally reprehensible imo.

You mean the way Obama is gutting the poor and middle classes through cronyism to enrich the rich? Dems are no different than Reps.

[Chris]

not on abortion

not on marriage equality

not on racial issues

not on voting rights issues

not on immigration

not on economic issues

not on education issues

not on judiciary issues

not on environmental issues

i'm kind of running out of issues here… seeing far more differences than similarities.

and the similarities largely stem from the need to raise money in perpetuity for election and re-election.

citizens united (which again, wouldn't have occurred with a left leaning majority) made sure that will only get worse.



But on the basic principle of depending on government to decide those social issues they are one and the same. Remember, Xl's point was cons and libs, reps and dems are statists.


The Xl , I think the notion of statism eludes statists.

[Mainecoons]

She's got the complaint about the redistribution right, she's just in total denial about who is doing the redistributing. :grin:

Aside from the sterling "accomplishment" of ObamaCare, no one has done a better job of making the rich richer than their darling Mr. Obama and company.

[Chris]

She's got the complaint about the redistribution right, she's just in total denial about who is doing the redistributing. :grin:

Aside from the sterling "accomplishment" of ObamaCare, no one has done a better job of making the rich richer than their darling Mr. Obama and company.


Obamacare is just another example of cronyism, making insurance companies richer, under the emotional guise of feel good intentions.

[The Xl]

You know that thing were we have these right to "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Killing an unborn child take 2 of those 3 rights away.

And it is not the only what that a mother that does not want to raise a child has of getting rid of that child

I believe abortion to be terrible, and when I was engaged from 18-20 years old with my ex, we had a conversation about abortion, and I flat out told her that I'd stop sleeping with her if she didn't agree to have the child in the unlikely event that an accident occurred.

That said, I believe a mother has no obligation to carry a child that cannot survive on its own, reprehensible as it may be.

[Mainecoons]

Obamacare is just another example of cronyism, making insurance companies richer, under the emotional guise of feel good intentions.

We may be witnessing a "poetic justice" event for these health companies as it becomes more and more apparent that ObamaCare is going to be a financial bomb for them.

Conservatives, including me, like to think that the private sector is smarter than this. It certainly doesn't appear so in this case.

These companies have exercised stupidity on a government level of magnitude getting involved in this thing and basing their greedy expectations on the silly premise that young people, many of whom are unemployed or marginally employed, had the wherewithal, let alone the inclination, to bail out everyone else by purchasing bad and expensive insurance plans.

[jillian]

Obamacare is just another example of cronyism, making insurance companies richer, under the emotional guise of feel good intentions.

no cronyism in corporate culture, chris?

and please explain how it's cronyism to give people a choice of carriers and force those carriers to compete against each other?

seems you should be jumping up and down saying "huzzah".

oh right… its not a heritage foundation plan, anymore.

[Chris]

no cronyism in corporate culture, chris?

Of course, jillian, cronyism or corporatism is the collusion of government and business. That is in fact what I said and what you commented on.

[jillian]

Of course, jillian, cronyism or corporatism is the collusion of government and business. That is in fact what I said and what you commented on.

really? people who start their own businesses don't engage in cronyism, chris?

people give jobs to people they know.

do you have another definition of cronyism?

[Mini Me]

It's meant to put into perspective, though comparison, the true human cost of infanticide. I understand if being confronted with the number of dead makes you uncomfortable, as such a death toll of victims should. One would expect a dismissive response as well, and why not? It's not fun to defend 55 million deaths of convenience. That fact alone should provoke serious reconsideration of one's values.

The Declaration of Independence resulted from the Lee Resolution passed by Congress. It actually is law. However, despite the fact that we now function under the Constitution, it should still be the guiding force of government as it declared the very reasons for our own existence. It can be argued that the Declaration of Independence was the first of our Organic Acts. The Constitution was a new compact and merely replaced the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union; it did not erase our history. If nothing before the ratification of the Constitution had standing then the states that ratified it would not exist as independent. You claim to support case law and thus historical precedent, and nothing says precedent like a founding document, yes?

You might want to do some more reading on the Founding Fathers before libeling them as white-supremacists and misogynists. I suggest reading about the many black heroes of the Revolution, republican motherhood, and that you investigate how many Patriots that fought were rich land-owners.

Those 55,000,000 dead fetuses do have a huge upside:

We have many less Charles Mansons & John Gacy's because of this, and so much less crime because of it.
Just think what the welfare rat roles would look like if these fetuses had been born, it would be enormous!

Unwanted children are a huge problem for us, or any society, and abortion is a direct means of preventing that. The social costs of unwanted children is a very high burden indeed.

We must always consider the "greater good" that society needs to function better.

A fetus is not yet a human being, and no argument can destroy that fact.

[Mini Me]

Republicans yearn for a massive government. They just don't brag about it.

As long as Rethuglicans have government in their pocket, they are happy with it.

Fascism is the merging of corporatism with government. Mussolini

[Guest]

As long as Rethuglicans have government in their pocket, they are happy with it.

Fascism is the merging of corporatism with government. Mussolini

Kind of like Solyndra, right?

[jillian]

Kind of like Solyndra, right?

businessess in the private sector don't fail?

what was baine capital's success rate?

[Mini Me]

You know that thing were we have these right to "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Killing an unborn child take 2 of those 3 rights away.

And it is not the only what that a mother that does not want to raise a child has of getting rid of that child

Stop calling a fetus an unborn child! A fetus is a fetus, Cletus!

[Guest]

businessess in the private sector don't fail?

what was baine capital's success rate?

Not sure what it was, but I would guess it was pretty good. On the other hand, we can safely say it was better than all the recent government "investments" in alternative energy.

[jillian]

Not sure what it was, but I would guess it was pretty good. On the other hand, we can safely say it was better than all the recent government "investments" in alternative energy.

actually, i can't find the link now because i have to get ready for dinner… but the rates aren't particularly different.

also, truth is that government innovates. corporations don't do so as often.

should we not explore alternative energies because you get to run around talking about one that didn't go so well?

i figure we had a bigger failure paying for marcus bachmann's pray away the gay business

[Mainecoons]

Government innovates?

:rofl:

You better stick to fixing dinner if this is what you believe.

[Mini Me]

It is well established in the literature that somewhere north of 90 percent of abortions are done for convenience. This statistic has been around quite a while, I'm really surprised that anyone is surprised by it.

The white race is aborting itself out of existence. Look up the numbers on this if you doubt them. In 100 years, we'll be a fading memory in many places.

You call it convenience.
The pregnant woman calls it neccessity.
She does not want to have a child she cannot take care off. That indicates some moral responsibility.

You would force her to have another welfare rat that became a burden upon society!
That fails the "greater good for society test"!

[Mainecoons]

"welfare rat."

You would have been right at home in Nazi Germany.

[zelmo1234]

no cronyism in corporate culture, chris?

and please explain how it's cronyism to give people a choice of carriers and force those carriers to compete against each other?

seems you should be jumping up and down saying "huzzah".

oh right… its not a heritage foundation plan, anymore.

Would you mind posting the parts of the Heritage plan that is being used in the ACA?

And here is the thing, in most cases they are actually not competing against each other? It is restricted to a few companies. And in most cases, not all because some are getting subsidies, but in most cases, it is more expensive and has higher out of pocket!

[zelmo1234]

You call it convenience.
The pregnant woman calls it neccessity.
She does not want to have a child she cannot take care off. That indicates some moral responsibility.

You would force her to have another welfare rat that became a burden upon society!
That fails the "greater good for society test"!

When did we make adoption illegal in this country?

[zelmo1234]

Those 55,000,000 dead fetuses do have a huge upside:

We have many less Charles Mansons & John Gacy's because of this, and so much less crime because of it.
Just think what the welfare rat roles would look like if these fetuses had been born, it would be enormous!

Unwanted children are a huge problem for us, or any society, and abortion is a direct means of preventing that. The social costs of unwanted children is a very high burden indeed.

We must always consider the "greater good" that society needs to function better.

A fetus is not yet a human being, and no argument can destroy that fact.



Just think of the economic benefit of killing all of the disabled, life sentence criminals and those on unemployment, we could have a government surplus in no time??????? That would be Great????? Well NO!

[zelmo1234]

businessess in the private sector don't fail?

what was baine capital's success rate?

One thing to remember with all Capital investment companies is that they are not investing in sound companies. they are investing in companies that are going under, so the fact that they turn any of them around is a plus, but If I remember they were somewhere in the 60% range which is actually really high for a capital investment firm!

[zelmo1234]

Stop calling a fetus an unborn child! A fetus is a fetus, Cletus!

https://www.google.com/#q=definition+of+fetus

Ok how about unborn human baby is that better??????

[Mini Me]

"welfare rat."

You would have been right at home in Nazi Germany.

"welfare rat" is one of the con holers favorite expressions. That's why I used it. Its code for ni66er!

What does this have to do with Nazis?

[zelmo1234]

actually, i can't find the link now because i have to get ready for dinner… but the rates aren't particularly different.

also, truth is that government innovates. corporations don't do so as often.

should we not explore alternative energies because you get to run around talking about one that didn't go so well?

i figure we had a bigger failure paying for marcus bachmann's pray away the gay business

Not sure about the last line but if we funded something like that? What stupidity!

But here is the list of Green energy failures, and the amount that the government lost not counting the unemployment of the workers.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/10/18/president-obamas-taxpayer-backed-green-energy-failures/

I believe that the government is a total failure when it comes to innovation, because they don't have the burden of having to turn a profit!

[Mini Me]

When did we make adoption illegal in this country?

There are a lot more unwanted babies than there are adoptees. Duhhhhhhh.

Nice try at diverting from my statement.

[zelmo1234]

"welfare rat" is one of the con holers favorite expressions. That's why I used it. Its code for ni66er!

What does this have to do with Nazis?

Dude, that was not really called for was it?

And welfare is not the only option? First I think that there are some fathers that might have wanted the child? Second there are ways of preventing the pregnancy!

[Chris]

no cronyism in corporate culture, chris?

and please explain how it's cronyism to give people a choice of carriers and force those carriers to compete against each other?

seems you should be jumping up and down saying "huzzah".

oh right… its not a heritage foundation plan, anymore.



It would help if after I respond you wouldn't go back and add more to your post.

The first question has been addressed.


and please explain how it's cronyism to give people a choice of carriers and force those carriers to compete against each other?

Please explain why you're asking me that when I said no such thing? Giving people choices and letting business compete is what happens in the free market, it doesn't under government. What happens under government, and what I did post about, is government and business collude together, in this case government and insurance companies, asked to write much of the ACA, in order to enrich the insurance companies with mandated customers and empower the government.

I'm assuming you know what cronyism and corporatism mean.




seems you should be jumping up and down saying "huzzah".

Blatant misrepresentation when I'm clearly criticizing the corny corporatism.



oh right… its not a heritage foundation plan, anymore.

What has this to do with the recent rise in the price of turnips?

You seem to latch onto a word or two of what I actually post and just jump here and there to other unrelated things.

[zelmo1234]

There are a lot more unwanted babies than there are adoptees. Duhhhhhhh.

Nice try at diverting from my statement.

Then why is it that some many American couple are adopting babies from foreign countries. Babies are in high demand, unfortunately they have a hard time getting children adopted!

[Chris]

really? people who start their own businesses don't engage in cronyism, chris?

people give jobs to people they know.

do you have another definition of cronyism?



That's not the cronyism being discussed here, jillian. My post had to do with crony corporatism evident in the ACA.

[Chris]

businessess in the private sector don't fail?

what was baine capital's success rate?

Businesses in the private sector do fail...at the expense of those who have skin in the game. When government gets involved with crony capitalism, as in the case of Solyndra, it is at the expense of others, the taxpayers.

[Chris]

Government innovates?

:rofl:

You better stick to fixing dinner if this is what you believe.



Oh, come on, maine, government is quite innovative in finding ways to screw the people. The plethora of taxation and regulation attest to that.

[jillian]

Oh, come on, maine, government is quite innovative in finding ways to screw the people. The plethora of taxation and regulation attest to that.

yes, private industry got us to the moon.

private industry financed AIDS research

should i go on or can i stop there?

[zelmo1234]

yes, private industry got us to the moon.

private industry financed AIDS research

should i go on or can i stop there?

Actually you are correct it was private industry. it was paid for by government, but it was private industry doing the work,

Here in lies the problem with this alliance between private industry and government. the technology and drug patents belong to these companies. So what if they stopped funding the companies and put research into the universities and then when there is a breakthrough ti was open for all industry to produce so that the cost was not high, but low!

plus you would be using free labor of the students, could be really cool!

[Mainecoons]

Of course there's been some good government research. But ask yourself this, what of value have we had coming out of government research lately?

Not much. It is as dysfunctional as the rest of government these days.

[jillian]

Actually you are correct it was private industry. it was paid for by government, but it was private industry doing the work,

Here in lies the problem with this alliance between private industry and government. the technology and drug patents belong to these companies. So what if they stopped funding the companies and put research into the universities and then when there is a breakthrough ti was open for all industry to produce so that the cost was not high, but low!

plus you would be using free labor of the students, could be really cool!

private industry did not get us to the moon…

and you're correct that there was private market participation with government grants for a lot of research.

still shows the usefulness of government. the research wouldn't have been done otherwise.

we could also go back to the WPA projects

http://listosaur.com/history/top-10-public-works-projects-from-the-great-depression.html?tmpl=component

we could use another infrastructure build like that.

[Mainecoons]

Like I said, what have you done for us lately?

Oh. Solyndra.

OK

:rofl:

[zelmo1234]

private industry did not get us to the moon…

and you're correct that there was private market participation with government grants for a lot of research.

still shows the usefulness of government. the research wouldn't have been done otherwise.

we could also go back to the WPA projects

http://listosaur.com/history/top-10-public-works-projects-from-the-great-depression.html?tmpl=component

we could use another infrastructure build like that.

I think that is was Lockeed Martin that build the space modules? but I cold be wrong.

But one thing is for sure we have to find a more cost effective way of funding research. I am not saying that there is no role for government to play but we have to find a better more effective way!

[countryboy]

There are a lot more unwanted babies than there are adoptees. Duhhhhhhh.

Nice try at diverting from my statement.

Right, that's why Americans adopt foreign babies. Part of the problem is onerous gubmint regs. Gee, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

[roadmaster]

I am pro-life because people need to take responsibility and stop blaming others for what they do. We all know what can happen if you don't use protection but the bad part is how many don't. With all the diseases out today look at all the ones who take that chance. They also spread it with multiple partners. If it grows up to be a child, it's a child and this senseless killing of them because they chose not to be responsible needs to stop.

[jillian]

I am pro-life because people need to take responsibility and stop blaming others for what they do. We all know what can happen if you don't use protection but the bad part is how many don't. With all the diseases out today look at all the ones who take that chance. They also spread it with multiple partners. If it grows up to be a child, it's a child and this senseless killing of them because they chose not to be responsible needs to stop.

what other people do with their bodies is none of your business.

what is senseless is forcing women to have children that you then support allowing to live in poverty. that's senseless… and immoral.

[roadmaster]

what other people do with their bodies is none of your business.

what is senseless is forcing women to have children that you then support allowing to live in poverty. that's senseless… and immoral. Who is forcing them. They made a choice like all of us. You are immoral and murder is a sin.

[Chris]

what other people do with their bodies is none of your business.

what is senseless is forcing women to have children that you then support allowing to live in poverty. that's senseless… and immoral.


If you feel so, what are you doing to solve poverty then?

[jillian]

If you feel so, what are you doing to solve poverty then?

aside from doing my own small bit to help?

i vote for people who aren't randian… every man for himself… extremists.

cool, right?

[Mainecoons]

You vote for people who hurt the middle class and make the rich richer.

And you voted for a mayor who shows every sign of returning NYC to the bad old days.

In short, you vote like you post--full of notions and fantasies and in terminal denial about what the ideas and people you support are actually doing to working folks.

Nice job.

[zelmo1234]

Unfortunately those that seem to be compassionate toward the poor, have created a class of people that are totally dependent on a Government and thus doomed to poverty and the compassion of a government that does not have the money to support them.

Weather we are on the right of the left the current system has failed the people, and more of the same, will only produce more of the same results.

in my opinion we need to find a way to bring dignity and hope back into the poor neighborhoods, and that means letting them take responsibility for their future!

[Guest]

I think that is was Lockeed Martin that build the space modules? but I cold be wrong.

But one thing is for sure we have to find a more cost effective way of funding research. I am not saying that there is no role for government to play but we have to find a better more effective way!

Well, right now we have "The Chicago Way". Which is basically the political patronage system with dashes of cronyism, corruption, graft and outright theft.

[countryboy]

aside from doing my own small bit to help?

i vote for people who aren't randian… every man for himself… extremists.

cool, right?
Then why is it conservatives give far more to charity than libs? More snarky bullshit from our resident snarkologist.

[Mini Me]

Then why is it that some many American couple are adopting babies from foreign countries. Babies are in high demand, unfortunately they have a hard time getting children adopted!

That's because Americans want white babies, and babies that are not crack babies, of addicts or alcoholics, inferior genetic stock, etc.And the adoption process is too complicated.

No one wants to raise a problem child.

[Mister D]

You vote for people who hurt the middle class and make the rich richer.

And you voted for a mayor who shows every sign of returning NYC to the bad old days.

In short, you vote like you post--full of notions and fantasies and in terminal denial about what the ideas and people you support are actually doing to working folks.

Nice job.

5046

[Mini Me]

Unfortunately those that seem to be compassionate toward the poor, have created a class of people that are totally dependent on a Government and thus doomed to poverty and the compassion of a government that does not have the money to support them.

Weather we are on the right of the left the current system has failed the people, and more of the same, will only produce more of the same results.

in my opinion we need to find a way to bring dignity and hope back into the poor neighborhoods, and that means letting them take responsibility for their future!

That's pure Rethuglican brainwash HORSESHIT! Bootstrap myth!

The "job creators" elite have abandoned America to send jobs and industry overseas because of pure profit GREED! Red China and WalMart have created "the race to the bottom business model which ensures massive unemployment, poverty into the future for millions of Americans.

You have it ass-backwards: Liberals did not create this huge underclass, it was done by the big biz elite to create huge profits and over seas markets. The Great Society programs were a response to what was already happening with the abandonment of the labor movement and drive for profits.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution started, the big battle has always been labor vs. management. Management has won, and look what we have left as working people now? Nothing.

Now imagine if you get rid of all the entitlement programs, what will you have? You will have millions of folks eating out of garbage dumpsters, rioting, starvation, martial law, rampant crime, and no one will be safe, except the elite. And the economy will be dead in the water.

Is that what you want? Actions have consequences!

[Mini Me]

Then why is it conservatives give far more to charity than libs? More snarky bullshit from our resident snarkologist.

Proof? Didn't think so.

Cons are in it strictly for the writeoffs.

[Mini Me]

Well, right now we have "The Chicago Way". Which is basically the political patronage system with dashes of cronyism, corruption, graft and outright theft.

Hey! That's the American way! Its business as usual, all over, not just Chicago.

Bribery works!!!

[zelmo1234]

That's because Americans want white babies, and babies that are not crack babies, of addicts or alcoholics, inferior genetic stock, etc.And the adoption process is too complicated.

No one wants to raise a problem child.

Since when did babies form China, Vietnam, Korea and Africa become white?

They want babies? and they are willing to take what they can get, that is why they are going to other countries, they don't know what they are getting but they take them anyway!

You can make all of the excuses that you want but there are other alternatives to killing a baby!

[zelmo1234]

That's pure Rethuglican brainwash HORSESHIT! Bootstrap myth!

The "job creators" elite have abandoned America to send jobs and industry overseas because of pure profit GREED! Red China and WalMart have created "the race to the bottom business model which ensures massive unemployment, poverty into the future for millions of Americans.

You have it ass-backwards: Liberals did not create this huge underclass, it was done by the big biz elite to create huge profits and over seas markets. The Great Society programs were a response to what was already happening with the abandonment of the labor movement and drive for profits.

Ever since the Industrial Revolution started, the big battle has always been labor vs. management. Management has won, and look what we have left as working people now? Nothing.

Now imagine if you get rid of all the entitlement programs, what will you have? You will have millions of folks eating out of garbage dumpsters, rioting, starvation, martial law, rampant crime, and no one will be safe, except the elite. And the economy will be dead in the water.

Is that what you want? Actions have consequences!

You are correct in your conclusions but not in your reasons.

The true is the free trade agreements are coming home to roost.

And Americans don't have enough sense to buy things that are built in the USA. We owe China so much money the government does not dare run the made in the USA programs and you can't pay American wages, taxes and deal with the regulations and compete in a market place where the consumer make their decision based on price!

The profit margins that Wal-Mart, Exxon, and the auto industry as so thin that they would be unheard of only a decade ago!

[countryboy]

Proof? Didn't think so.

Cons are in it strictly for the writeoffs.
Look it up. IRS doesn't give shit for chraritable donations these days, I don't bother. But if they did, why shouldn't I? Are you telling me you don't take all the deductions you are able to? Yeah, didn't think so.....

[jillian]

Proof? Didn't think so.

Cons are in it strictly for the writeoffs.


there is some evidence of it, but it's their churches they give to…because many tithe. they aren't more likely to go out and give money to their local food bank than anyone on the left.

[countryboy]

there is some evidence of it, but it's their churches they give to…because many tithe. they aren't more likely to go out and give money to their local food bank than anyone on the left.

What's wrong with the local church's food bank? Afraid someone might learn about Jesus, or something?

[Dr. Who]

Then why is it that some many American couple are adopting babies from foreign countries. Babies are in high demand, unfortunately they have a hard time getting children adopted!

Society is different now - there is a stigma attached to giving up your child for adoption. In the past parents would have been mortified to have an illegitimate grand child. Now it's the parents encouraging the girls to either abort the child or keep it rather than have them adopted out. There is also now the spectre of this child coming back to demand to know why they were given up.

[Mini Me]

Society is different now - there is a stigma attached to giving up your child for adoption. In the past parents would have been mortified to have an illegitimate grand child. Now it's the parents encouraging the girls to either abort the child or keep it rather than have them adopted out. There is also now the spectre of this child coming back to demand to know why they were given up.

So true!

I knew a woman for many years that could never get over being an adopted child. It really messed her head up. Fortunately, she was adopted by a rich family, and went on with Intel Corp. to have a rewarding career.

I know 5-6 orphan guys who all became drug addled losers out of a foster home.It can be devastating not knowing who your parents are!

[countryboy]

So true!

I knew a woman for many years that could never get over being an adopted child. It really messed her head up. Fortunately, she was adopted by a rich family, and went on with Intel Corp. to have a rewarding career.

I know 5-6 orphan guys who all became drug addled losers out of a foster home.It can be devastating not knowing who your parents are!
While your anecdotes are interesting, do you have anything more substantial?

[jillian]

Then why is it that some many American couple are adopting babies from foreign countries. Babies are in high demand, unfortunately they have a hard time getting children adopted!

because adopting a child here can be a nightmare. a woman gives up the baby, signs off on her parental rights. says she doesn't know who dad is. two years after the adoption dad shows up (claiming he never knew about the baby or the adoption) and asserts his own parental rights. takes a blood test and voila, daddy now has a child that people have thought was theirs for years. messes with both the adoptive parents and the child.

you want to adopt under those circumstances.

ultimately, it's the person's choice… not the choice of men or government to tell a woman what to do in such situations.

and i understand you don't like it. so don't have an abortion.

but what anyone else does really isn't government's business until the fetus reaches a certain point.

[Chris]

because adopting a child here can be a nightmare. a woman gives up the baby, signs off on her parental rights. says she doesn't know who dad is. two years after the adoption dad shows up (claiming he never knew about the baby or the adoption) and asserts his own parental rights. takes a blood test and voila, daddy now has a child that people have thought was theirs for years. messes with both the adoptive parents and the child.

you want to adopt under those circumstances.

ultimately, it's the person's choice… not the choice of men or government to tell a woman what to do in such situations.

and i understand you don't like it. so don't have an abortion.

but what anyone else does really isn't government's business until the fetus reaches a certain point.



How, ignoring the equal rights of the unborn, can you demand rights? It's a glaring contradiction.

[countryboy]

but what anyone else does really isn't government's business until the fetus reaches a certain point.
And what point is that?

[countryboy]

How, ignoring the equal rights of the unborn, can you demand rights? It's a glaring contradiction.
Modern liberalism is nothing more than a series of contradictions, and hypocrisies.

[Max Rockatansky]

The rights of non-sentient creatures. Isn't that the main argument of PETA?

http://www.petacatalog.com/images/products/150.jpg

[Mister D]

The obsession with privacy, particularly with regard to abortion, is just plain creepy. This makes for depressing reading.

[Max Rockatansky]

The obsession with privacy, particularly with regard to abortion, is just plain creepy. This makes for depressing reading.

I confess to being a bit obsessed with keeping government out of my personal business. No one should be telling me how to live, what to believe or what I should do with my life. The caveat being when my personal actions conflict with the rights of other citizens. That's where, as the Declaration of Independence states, by "consent of the governed" we allow our government to be a referee.

The question of children comes into play from conception to adulthood as to what rights parents have and what rights children have. The question I've repeated several times here only to see that question repeatedly dodged is "When does a zygote grow into a human being?" The answer to that question is the one where our government should referee the rights of the mother and the rights of the human being(s) growing inside her.

[Chris]

I confess to being a bit obsessed with keeping government out of my personal business. No one should be telling me how to live, what to believe or what I should do with my life. The caveat being when my personal actions conflict with the rights of other citizens. That's where, as the Declaration of Independence states, by "consent of the governed" we allow our government to be a referee.

The question of children comes into play from conception to adulthood as to what rights parents have and what rights children have. The question I've repeated several times here only to see that question repeatedly dodged is "When does a zygote grow into a human being?" The answer to that question is the one where our government should referee the rights of the mother and the rights of the human being(s) growing inside her.


No that question has been answered:


If you guys really need the authority of medical science to see the obvious, then OK:

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


From http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html


And you have dodged the answer.

[Mister D]

I confess to being a bit obsessed with keeping government out of my personal business. No one should be telling me how to live, what to believe or what I should do with my life. The caveat being when my personal actions conflict with the rights of other citizens. That's where, as the Declaration of Independence states, by "consent of the governed" we allow our government to be a referee.

The question of children comes into play from conception to adulthood as to what rights parents have and what rights children have. The question I've repeated several times here only to see that question repeatedly dodged is "When does a zygote grow into a human being?" The answer to that question is the one where our government should referee the rights of the mother and the rights of the human being(s) growing inside her.

I confess to finding this modern obsession repulsive and a bit depraved particularly in this context. 'It's my body fuck society' is about right.

[Max Rockatansky]

I confess to finding this modern obsession repulsive and a bit depraved particularly in this context. 'It's my body fuck society' is about right.

Why? Do you believe "the State" should dictate how people live, what they do and who they do it with?

http://xmova.com/img/thx1138-1971/5.jpg

[jillian]

Why? Do you believe "the State" should dictate how people live, what they do and who they do it with?

http://xmova.com/img/thx1138-1971/5.jpg


only when he agrees with what the "state" does.

[jillian]

I confess to finding this modern obsession repulsive and a bit depraved particularly in this context. 'It's my body fuck society' is about right.

really? i find it depraved to claim to be anti-government while decrying the imposition of insurance requirements to save lives but pretending you're moral enough to decide what people do in their personal lives.

imagine that.

[Max Rockatansky]

only when he agrees with what the "state" does.

If true, he's not the only one. Both Left and Right have their Authoritarian proponents. The difference isn't between Free and Enslaved, but simply who is doing the Enslaving.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/bothaxes.gif

[Chris]

really? i find it depraved to claim to be anti-government while decrying the imposition of insurance requirements to save lives but pretending you're moral enough to decide what people do in their personal lives.

imagine that.


I don't believe D has ever argued anything remotely like that. He is something of a statist in fact. Imagine that.

[Chris]

If true, he's not the only one. Both Left and Right have their Authoritarian proponents. The difference isn't between Free and Enslaved, but simply who is doing the Enslaving.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/bothaxes.gif



Which completely ignores the second dimension of that Nolan chart.

[Adelaide]

I don't really want to read all 20 pages.

Abortion rates are going down. They have been for quite a while. Women do not want to have abortions. It is not an easy decision to make when a woman has to make that kind of decision when there are basically three options; abort, adoption, raise a child. Adoption sounds all nice and cozy but is probably more psychologically damaging than abortion - and abortion is not easy. Imagine carrying a child you know you can't afford to raise for whatever reasons, then having to give it away and hope that the parents will be loving, kind, so forth. You'll always wonder about that child. You'll wonder if they're safe. You'll wonder if they're healthy. You'll always know you gave it away. You'll always wonder if the child knows what you did and hates you for it.

Aborting a child is somewhat similar; I've known women/teenagers who have had abortions and they knew what they were doing and it psychologically damaged them and changed them. But when you're living on $400 a month on student welfare and the father will never provide support and you are 16 you don't have options. It costs money to be pregnant even if you want to go the route of adoption; clothing for different stages (and maternity clothing is ridiculously expensive), increased amount of food costs, prenatal vitamins not covered by our insurance, so forth. You certainly can't keep the child to raise if you can't even afford to be pregnant. You have no choice. I'm taking about someone specifically here and it completely broke her heart that she really didn't have any option but to abort. She's 22 now and having her first child in a couple months with her stable boyfriend.

They are a very small amount of women who use abortion as birth control - not the norm. They shouldn't make everyone else look terrible.

Abortion as convenience? There are many people who don't consider a fetus to be a child, so abortion might be an easier decision to make when determining whether you're at a time in your life where you are ready financially and psychologically to raise a child. I believe that it is a child and wouldn't have an abortion, but I also believe that every woman has a right to their own beliefs and should make their decisions based on that. I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice, and I think women who have an unwanted pregnancy outside of a stable relationship when not financially secure have a very tough decision to make and I'm not going to be the one to judge them for it, nor am I fit to be the one who judges them for it. I believe that's above my pay grade, so to speak.

[Mister D]

really? i find it depraved to claim to be anti-government while decrying the imposition of insurance requirements to save lives but pretending you're moral enough to decide what people do in their personal lives.

imagine that.

Imagine what? That you don't understand what depraved means and can't use it properly in a sentence?

Anyway, you must have me confused with these "fake libertarians" you're always addressing. Jillian confused. Imagine that.

[Mister D]

Why? Do you believe "the State" should dictate how people live, what they do and who they do it with?

http://xmova.com/img/thx1138-1971/5.jpg

It already does. All the time, actually. What a silly question, no offense.

[Mister D]

only when he agrees with what the "state" does.

Really? On what do you base that? That was rhetorical, btw. :wink:

[Mister D]

Why? Do you believe "the State" should dictate how people live, what they do and who they do it with?

http://xmova.com/img/thx1138-1971/5.jpg

And we should all appreciate the irony of Jillian's "thanks". :grin: What that guy do? try to buy a gun?

[countryboy]

And we should all appreciate the irony of Jillian's "thanks". :grin: What that guy do? try to buy a gun?
Actually, he tried to erect a nativity scene in a public park. I hope they hang him by the neck until dead.

[Max Rockatansky]

And we should all appreciate the irony of Jillian's "thanks". :grin: What that guy do? try to buy a gun?

He tried to be an individual.

If you haven't seen the movie, I highly recommend it.

[Mister D]

He tried to be an individual.

If you haven't seen the movie, I highly recommend it.

The original was a decent film but the sequels were garbage. :grin:

Western individualism is bio-cultural, IMO, and therefore has prehistoric origins. Moreover, because of that it's not going away until we go away as a distinct civilization. The extreme individualism embraced by moderns, however, is ideological and destructive of community life. If the West is to survive the pendulum will have to swing the other way for a while. Just my opinion of course.

[Mister D]

Actually, he tried to erect a nativity scene in a public park. I hope they hang him by the neck until dead.

:grin: We have been disagreeable at times but that was funny.

[Rebel Son]

:grin: We have been disagreeable at times but that was funny.

Maybe they will get the rest of his depraved associates as well.

[Mister D]

Maybe they will get the rest of his depraved associates as well.

After a such a hate crime the state must act.