22 States Curb Access To Abortion In 2013

[Captain Obvious]

Less Access to Abortion in 22 States. (http://m.npr.org/news/front/259445809)


The year 2013 marked the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide.


It also marked another year of success for those who would restrict or even outlaw the procedure.


While much national attention was focused on efforts to restrict abortion in Texas, a new study from the Guttmacher Institute reports that as many as 22 states enacted 70 provisions aimed at curbing access to abortion. That makes 2013 second only to 2011 in the number of abortion restrictions enacted in a single year, according to the think tank for reproductive rights.

[Captain Obvious]

Fucking links, can't edit it.

[Peter1469]

Fucking links, can't edit it.

Fixed and added quote.

[Green Arrow]

Meh. I'm pro-life, but I also don't think the government should be legislating it. If you want to make people stop getting abortions, trying to force them to stop via government won't make them stop. You should instead try to gradually change their mind socially.

[Captain Obvious]

Meh. I'm pro-life, but I also don't think the government should be legislating it. If you want to make people stop getting abortions, trying to force them to stop via government won't make them stop. You should instead try to gradually change their mind socially.

Abortion is already an accepted form of pseudo-birth control.

How many free condoms, how much education, how more widespread do we need to make available contraception? At what point does society become responsible?

[Chris]

Abortion is already an accepted form of pseudo-birth control.

How many free condoms, how much education, how more widespread do we need to make available contraception? At what point does society become responsible?


When the paternalistic state is reduced and the people weaned off dependence.

[Green Arrow]

Abortion is already an accepted form of pseudo-birth control.

How many free condoms, how much education, how more widespread do we need to make available contraception? At what point does society become responsible?

Where did I say we need to make abortion more available?

[Captain Obvious]

Where did I say we need to make abortion more available?

Where did I say that you said we need to make abortion more available?

[Captain Obvious]

When the paternalistic state is reduced and the people weaned off dependence.

When does that happen? Shoot me an estimate. Range it.

0-5 years?
6-25 years
26-50 years
51-250 years

... or how about "fucking never"?

[Chris]

When does that happen? Shoot me an estimate. Range it.

0-5 years?
6-25 years
26-50 years
51-250 years

... or how about "fucking never"?


Given how many fear freedom, see this (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/20814-Parting-Company?p=479751&viewfull=1#post479751), probably not until this government collapses.

[Green Arrow]

Where did I say that you said we need to make abortion more available?

Either that was your assertion, or your post had nothing to do with mine.

[Chloe]

Abortion is already an accepted form of pseudo-birth control.

How many free condoms, how much education, how more widespread do we need to make available contraception? At what point does society become responsible?

Responsibility comes with the choice in my opinion. It's your responsibility to choose if you use birth control or not, jut like it's your responsibility to choose between birth or abortion, not mine or someone else's. The decision made from those choices is the responsibility of the individual involved and if that's the best choice that that person believes is the most responsible and appropriate choice then that's that in my opinion. You may find their choice to be irresponsible, reckless, illogical, or whatever else, but it was their choice, their responsibility.

[Chris]

Responsibility comes with the choice in my opinion. It's your responsibility to choose if you use birth control or not, jut like it's your responsibility to choose between birth or abortion, not mine or someone else's. The decision made from those choices is the responsibility of the individual involved and if that's the best choice that that person believes is the most responsible and appropriate choice then that's that in my opinion. You may find their choice to be irresponsible, reckless, illogical, or whatever else, but it was their choice, their responsibility.


That's fine as far as it goes but who chooses for the unborn, what about it's equal rights?

[countryboy]

Responsibility comes with the choice in my opinion. It's your responsibility to choose if you use birth control or not, jut like it's your responsibility to choose between birth or abortion, not mine or someone else's. The decision made from those choices is the responsibility of the individual involved and if that's the best choice that that person believes is the most responsible and appropriate choice then that's that in my opinion. You may find their choice to be irresponsible, reckless, illogical, or whatever else, but it was their choice, their responsibility.
Woah, woah, woah. In your recycling thread, you want choice eliminated by government. But for abortion you want people free to make their own decision? How do you pick and choose which areas of our lives you want government intrusion? Seems kinda willy nilly to me. Do you have a dart board?

[Chloe]

That's fine as far as it goes but who chooses for the unborn, what about it's equal rights?

Well at that point it's basically the parent whose body is affected by and affecting the fetus that decides in my opinion.

[Chloe]

Woah, woah, woah. In your recycling thread, you want choice eliminated by government. But for abortion you want people free to make their own decision? How do you pick and choose which areas of our lives you want government intrusion? Seems kinda willy nilly to me. Do you have a dart board?

the two topics are vastly different in my opinion. Your waste can affect many things, but the choice whether or not to continue a pregnancy does not.

[Peter1469]

Abortion is already an accepted form of pseudo-birth control.

How many free condoms, how much education, how more widespread do we need to make available contraception? At what point does society become responsible?


Don't forget about "pull and pray." :shocked:

[Chris]

Well at that point it's basically the parent whose body is affected by and affecting the fetus that decides in my opinion.


So the unborn is slave to master mother?

[Mister D]

the two topics are vastly different in my opinion. Your waste can affect many things, but the choice whether or not to continue a pregnancy does not.

Sure it does. When poor women have kids who shoulders the cost? What about single mothers whose bastard offspring prey on the rest of us?

[Captain Obvious]

That's fine as far as it goes but who chooses for the unborn, what about it's equal rights?

"Choice" > human life

[The Xl]

Condoms are like 3 bucks. My smart friends from the hood who were/are broke never had any problems getting condoms.

People who use abortion as birth control are lazy fucks. Not saying it should be illegal, but it's morally reprehensible, and unbelievably lazy.

[jillian]

Condoms are like 3 bucks. My smart friends from the hood who were/are broke never had any problems getting condoms.

People who use abortion as birth control are lazy fucks. Not saying it should be illegal, but it's morally reprehensible, and unbelievably lazy.

women do not "use abortion as birth control". stuff happens. people make mistakes. birth control fails. men leave when they find out there's a pregnancy and faced with the economic hardship, people make choices. that's their business. and it's not a decision most people take lightly though there are studies that show that when the economy is good, there are fewer abortions because people can afford to parent.

but… there is also this:


Surveys conducted by anti-violence groups of survivors of domestic abuse have found contraception sabotage to be so widespread that there’s now a term for it: reproductive coercion.
The issue gained newfound attention last month, when the Supreme Court of Canada heard the case of a man who was sentenced to jail time for admitting that he poked holes in condoms to get his girlfriend pregnant in an effort to keep her from ending their relationship. She ultimately terminated the resulting pregnancy, and though a judge ordered the boyfriend’s acquittal, a second trial determined he was guilty of sexual assault. According to legal experts in the United States, however, he would not be guilty of any crime south of the border, something those in the domestic violence community would like to see changed.
So what exactly is reproductive coercion? Katie Ray-Jones, president of the National Domestic Violence Hotline, describes it as “a pattern of acts and behaviors in which one partner exerts control over another over reproduction, birth control, pregnancy that relate to reproduction. We know that domestic violence is a pattern of coercive controls and power, and we know that reproductive coercion fits into that dynamic.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/12/16/should-birth-control-sabotage-be-considered-a-crime.html

[GrassrootsConservative]

If it will save just one child...



























Liberals will hate it.

[jillian]

If it will save just one child…


^^^^^^

why men shouldn't be making those decisions for women… particularly men who think that they should cut off money to feed the real children… not the potential ones.






















Liberals will hate it.[/QUOTE]

[Chris]

women do not "use abortion as birth control". stuff happens. people make mistakes. birth control fails. men leave when they find out there's a pregnancy and faced with the economic hardship, people make choices. that's their business. and it's not a decision most people take lightly though there are studies that show that when the economy is good, there are fewer abortions because people can afford to parent.

but… there is also this:



http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/12/16/should-birth-control-sabotage-be-considered-a-crime.html



It really isn't an accident, stuff doesn't just happen, we all know the consequences, and freely choose to take the risks.

[GrassrootsConservative]

^^^^^^

why men shouldn't be making those decisions for women… particularly men who think that they should cut off money to feed the real children… not the potential ones.


If ANYTHING, and you don't like this idea, it's an argument for why GOVERNMENT shouldn't make decisions for women.

/edit or anyone

[Mr. Freeze]

I remember when it suddenly became uncool in middle school to wear the old style Starter Jacket. Even tho we were all from poor neighborhoods it was considered "broke" to have one. If you wore one you were made fun of so people either stole new ones, saved and bought new ones, found those problem jackets at Burlington or whatever, but you could NOT wear the old style.

People respond better to public shaming and peer pressure than laws. This is a provable fact. People will do drugs, which are against the law, if "everyone else is doing it".

Pro life people would do better to quit wasting money making it illegal and start a two-pronged marketing approach of negative and positive reinforcements just like clothing companies and record companies do.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I remember when it suddenly became uncool in middle school to wear the old style Starter Jacket. Even tho we were all from poor neighborhoods it was considered "broke" to have one. If you wore one you were made fun of so people either stole new ones, saved and bought new ones, found those problem jackets at Burlington or whatever, but you could NOT wear the old style.

People respond better to public shaming and peer pressure than laws. This is a provable fact. People will do drugs, which are against the law, if "everyone else is doing it".

Pro life people would do better to quit wasting money making it illegal and start a two-pronged marketing approach of negative and positive reinforcements just like clothing companies and record companies do.

People have a right to life. That's an undeniable part of America. The law should reflect that.

There should never be a time when it is legal to take the life of an innocent person. Ever.

[Mr. Freeze]

Condoms are like 3 bucks. My smart friends from the hood who were/are broke never had any problems getting condoms.

People who use abortion as birth control are lazy fucks. Not saying it should be illegal, but it's morally reprehensible, and unbelievably lazy.

This is very true. Abortion is being used as birth control because it allows you to behave as you wish and roll the dice. Sometimes you're lucky and if you're not, there's abortion.

I've known several colleagues that have had them and none of them were because they had a failure in birth control, only behavior. Considering that 70% of the abortions are by women who've had prior abortions, I don't buy the "oops".

I have no problem with it being legal because any law you would write would be written so poorly that people would die, but I refuse to pretend that this is something that it is not.

Our generation is pro-gay marriage, pro-legalization of abortion, but anti-abortion for reasons of morality. It's very hard to explain to the older generation that our morals are different because they take it as an insult, so usually I only talk among peers and say to people older than me that I wouldn't make it illegal.

It's the truth, but not the whole truth of how I feel.

[jillian]

Pro life people would do better to quit wasting money making it illegal and start a two-pronged marketing approach of negative and positive reinforcements just like clothing companies and record companies do.

i have a better idea. the i hate government types can mind their own business.

the problem is, it's almost all men doing this. and a bunch of old men trying to force their religious pov on women isn't going to work. so these people who think paying for health insurance violates their "freedom" want government to invade the most personal decisions possible…. like who one marries, what people do in their bedrooms and what women do with their bodies… oh yeah, and what decisions we make for loved ones at the end of their lives.

they *love* big government when it doesn't do anything that helps people… but plays church.

[Mr. Freeze]

People have a right to life. That's an undeniable part of America. The law should reflect that.

There should never be a time when it is legal to take the life of an innocent person. Ever.

How would you craft the law then?

[jillian]

People have a right to life. That's an undeniable part of America. The law should reflect that.

There should never be a time when it is legal to take the life of an innocent person. Ever.

it's only a "person" if your religion says it is.

and therein lies your problem.

[GrassrootsConservative]

How would you craft the law then?

Why does it matter?

[Chris]

it's only a "person" if your religion says it is.

and therein lies your problem.



It's only not a person if your religion, progressivism, and it's personhood argument, says it's not.

[zelmo1234]

the two topics are vastly different in my opinion. Your waste can affect many things, but the choice whether or not to continue a pregnancy does not.

Yes it could effect the person that will cure cancer cause world peace or bring about Green energy what do you mean killing a person has no effect on others.

[zelmo1234]

women do not "use abortion as birth control". stuff happens. people make mistakes. birth control fails. men leave when they find out there's a pregnancy and faced with the economic hardship, people make choices. that's their business. and it's not a decision most people take lightly though there are studies that show that when the economy is good, there are fewer abortions because people can afford to parent.

but… there is also this:



http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/12/16/should-birth-control-sabotage-be-considered-a-crime.html

Dot use the daily beast if you want people to take you seriously!

But the number one reason for an abortion is to end an unwanted pregnancy the baby is murdered because the person is using it as birth control!

[Chris]

i have a better idea. the i hate government types can mind their own business.

the problem is, it's almost all men doing this. and a bunch of old men trying to force their religious pov on women isn't going to work. so these people who think paying for health insurance violates their "freedom" want government to invade the most personal decisions possible…. like who one marries, what people do in their bedrooms and what women do with their bodies… oh yeah, and what decisions we make for loved ones at the end of their lives.

they *love* big government when it doesn't do anything that helps people… but plays church.



I'm sure the I-hate-government types would if the I-love-government types would do the same.



they *love* big government when it doesn't do anything that helps people…

Oxymoron. If they love government they don't hate it, or it's not big government if it does nothing.

[GrassrootsConservative]

It's only not a person if your religion, progressivism, and it's personhood argument, says it's not.

Right!

[Heyduke]

I don't think that State or federal laws are the answer to curbing abortion. ie throwing doctors and mothers in jail.

But, the issue really does comes down to whether one believes that the fetus is a person or not. Nobody would be infavor of terminating an innocent person. But, personhood is the bottom line.

Personally, I don't buy the argument that a fetus can't survive on its own, and therefore it isn't a real person. A six month old baby can't survive on its own either.

To me, if it has a heart, and a brain, fingers and toes, a nervous system, the ability to hear the muffled noises of the outside world and recognize the voices of its mother and father, and the ability to feel pain and pleasure, it's a person.

There are extreme circumstances, like the cases of rape or the fragile health of the mother. But, to off your own kid just for the sake of convenience, or to complete a semester of college, that's some cold ass shiite.

I guess I agree with Bill Clinton when he said that abortion should be legal and [very] rare.

[zelmo1234]

it's only a "person" if your religion says it is.

and therein lies your problem.

When women start giving birth to puppies, and cow and goats, then I will be all for abortions but as of now every women that I have ever know has had a child! So it is a human!

If you can prove that it could grow into something else then we have a discussion

[GrassrootsConservative]

When women start giving birth to puppies, and cow and goats, then I will be all for abortions but as of now every women that I have ever know has had a child! So it is a human!

If you can prove that it could grow into something else then we have a discussion

Exactly. To say it's not a person is to ignore the science of it and put your own politics first.

[Heyduke]

A woman got out of her traffic ticket here in pro-abortion California for driving 'alone' in the carpool lane.
She was pregnant, and argued that two people were in the car.

A lot of pro-abortion people around here like to push more food on an expectant mother saying, "You're eating for two."

The point is, the issue of personhood can't be decided on the basis of whether the kid is wanted or unwanted. Yet, it often seems to be

[Mr. Freeze]

it's only a "person" if your religion says it is.

and therein lies your problem.

There are pro-life atheists. When you believe that there is no life after this one, your feelings about snuffing it out can be remarkably compassionate.

http://www.prolifehumanists.org/tag/pro-life-atheists/

[jillian]

There are pro-life atheists. When you believe that there is no life after this one, your feelings about snuffing it out can be remarkably compassionate.

http://www.prolifehumanists.org/tag/pro-life-atheists/

there may be some. but they aren't the bulk of the activists.

there's also a reason that 80% of anti-choice activists are male.

mostly, freeze, people have enough trouble governing their own lives.. they shouldn't try to govern others' moral decisions.

[Chris]

Personhood arguments, such as jillian adheres to, justified slavery, women not voting, euthanasian, the Holocaust, and much more.

[Chris]

there may be some. but they aren't the bulk of the activists.

there's also a reason that 80% of anti-choice activists are male.

mostly, freeze, people have enough trouble governing their own lives.. they shouldn't try to govern others' moral decisions.



Yet you support government doing just that in Roe.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Personhood arguments, such as jillian adheres to, justified slavery, women not voting, euthanasian, the Holocaust, and much more.

Let's not forget that it's currently the logic that people think justifies the genocide of unborn and innocent blacks from (and I just thought of this, so clever of me) Planned Personhood.

[Mister D]

it's only a "person" if your religion says it is.

and therein lies your problem.

He's not religious. You do realize how silly your canned responses make you look?

[Chris]

Let's not forget that it's currently the logic that people think justifies the genocide of unborn and innocent blacks from (and I just thought of this, so clever of me) Planned Personhood.



Exactly.

[Mr. Freeze]

there may be some. but they aren't the bulk of the activists.

there's also a reason that 80% of anti-choice activists are male.

mostly, freeze, people have enough trouble governing their own lives.. they shouldn't try to govern others' moral decisions.

That's not entirely true anymore. The younger generation of anti-abortion activists are a mixed bag. While our generation favors gay marriage, for moral reasons, it also feels abortion is immoral.

Our views on the law reflect a libertarian bent, but our views on the act is very "traditional" even among females.

Here is a paper on why the younger generation of women are ambivalent about the subject:

http://www.jonathanmladd.com/uploads/5/3/6/6/5366295/abortion_millenial_women_mpsa11.pdf

The .pdf is the paper


Most significantly for the present analysis,
Figure 1 shows that the
Millennial Generation
appears to have the most pro-life preferences
of any cohort in any time
period in the analysis.
These results appear to confirm
the claims of previous authors that the Millennial Generation is
more pro-life than previous generations. In the
remainder of this paper, we investigate this
relationship in more detail.

[GrassrootsConservative]

He's not religious. You do realize how silly your canned responses make you look?

This could be misleading. I would like to clarify that her canned responses are no sillier than anything else she says.

[Mr. Freeze]

This could be misleading. I would like to clarify that her canned responses are no sillier than anything else she says.

I think it is a generational difference and gap of understanding. When she was a teen most likely the pro-life activists held a particular position that was anathema to her, and so this reflects her understanding of the argument. She's not silly. Like everyone else her positions are experiential.

[Chris]

I think it is a generational difference and gap of understanding. When she was a teen most likely the pro-life activists held a particular position that was anathema to her, and so this reflects her understanding of the argument. She's not silly. Like everyone else her positions are experiential.

It's very much out of the 90s.

But nearly 25 years of experience have ensued.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I think it is a generational difference and gap of understanding. When she was a teen most likely the pro-life activists held a particular position that was anathema to her, and so this reflects her understanding of the argument. She's not silly. Like everyone else her positions are experiential.

You just got here in October, so you might not be aware of this, but it's pretty well-known here that I'm about as nihilistic as one can get with regards to religion, and I'd be really surprised to learn somehow jillian managed to miss all that.

[Mister D]

I think it is a generational difference and gap of understanding. When she was a teen most likely the pro-life activists held a particular position that was anathema to her, and so this reflects her understanding of the argument. She's not silly. Like everyone else her positions are experiential.

In Jillian's day, feminism was reduced to abortion rights so I understand her fanaticism to an extent. Abortion became the issue for feminist gender politics. Still, I can't pretend I don't find her fixation creepy considering how morally dubious abortion is.

[Chris]

Well, not to scold, lol, but stuck-in-the-mud jillian's not the topic, the changing laws in the US are. We seem to be heading back toward pre-Roe days in law and opinion.


http://i.snag.gy/iUy38.jpg

[Mr. Freeze]

In Jillian's day, feminism was reduced to abortion rights so I understand her fanaticism to an extent. Abortion became the issue for feminist gender politics. Still, I can't pretend I don't find her fixation creepy considering how morally dubious abortion is.

I don't know if it is fanaticism. I also don't like speaking about her in the third person as it's rude. I will say that of that generation there is a fear that if they give an inch everything will be taken away and it makes it difficult for my generation to relate, and ultimately pushes us away--even younger women.

No one my age that I know of who is not in medical school says "zygote" or "fetus". When I hear those terms I know the person is over 35. It sounds as cold and callous to our age group as Todd Akin's rape comment does.

The statists (for lack of a better word) would do well to take the libertarian position now, which is that of having no government interest, over that of force because as they lose the morality battle the next generations will use government interest and force to restrict it.

Many younger women don't see this as a positive expression of "choice". When you have Katy Perry and Taylor Swift say that they don't consider themselves as feminists and Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez saying abortion is "mean", that should make people stand up and look at our position of "no government interest" because the younger generations are not that "80%" of males she's speaking of.

They want gay marriage because its nice. They want welfare because its nice. Abortion is not nice. That's the nextgen of statists.

[Peter1469]

I don't know if it is fanaticism. I also don't like speaking about her in the third person as it's rude. I will say that of that generation there is a fear that if they give an inch everything will be taken away and it makes it difficult for my generation to relate, and ultimately pushes us away--even younger women.

No one my age that I know of who is not in medical school says "zygote" or "fetus". When I hear those terms I know the person is over 35. It sounds as cold and callous to our age group as Todd Akin's rape comment does.

The statists (for lack of a better word) would do well to take the libertarian position now, which is that of having no government interest, over that of force because as they lose the morality battle the next generations will use government interest and force to restrict it.

Many younger women don't see this as a positive expression of "choice". When you have Katy Perry and Taylor Swift say that they don't consider themselves as feminists and Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez saying abortion is "mean", that should make people stand up and look at our position of "no government interest" because the younger generations are not that "80%" of males she's speaking of.

They want gay marriage because its nice. They want welfare because its nice. Abortion is not nice. That's the nextgen of statists.

Hey, watch with that over 35 thing.... :smiley:

[Green Arrow]

People have a right to life. That's an undeniable part of America. The law should reflect that.

There should never be a time when it is legal to take the life of an innocent person. Ever.

So what punishment would you suggest, GrassrootsConservative? If it's murder, should a woman who gets an abortion get the standard punishment for murder, either life in prison or execution?

[Mr. Freeze]

i have a better idea. the i hate government types can mind their own business.

Aren't you the society has _____________right to ______________type? Should we not try to create a pro-environment society? How about a pro-education society? How about a pro-life society through our words, deeds, and actions?

I want to live in a world of love, compassion, and respect for life.

[Mister D]

Hey, watch with that over 35 thing.... :smiley:

Why? You have a few years to go yet. :grin:

[Captain Obvious]

Why? You have a few years to go yet. :grin:

Youth is wasted on the... umm..

... how'd that go again?

:afro:

[patrickt]

It is crazy that some states actually want a doctor around when someone, not a doctor, is performing an abortion.

[Chloe]

So the unborn is slave to master mother?

Well no I didn't mean it like that I was just trying to say that it's the mom that has the most responsibility in the case of a pregnancy and so her opinion and decision matters more than an outsiders opinion.

I dont like like the idea of having an abortion because of convenience or anything like that or as a casual form of birth control, but I do think that ultimately it's her decision as to whether or not she wants her life to change because of one night. For example with me, I'll admit openly right now that I've never had sex before, but it's not because I've never had the opportunity it's because I'm scared to death of getting pregnant before I'm ready, and if that happened I know I'd have to decide two futures. Me getting pregnant in high school or right now while I'm in college would pretty much ruin my future and goals that I hope for myself right now, and so because of that I am waiting till marriage or at least until I'm engaged and ready for something like that. If I were to get pregnant I seriously doubt I'd be able to have an abortion personally, but I don't want to have to make that choice right now, and only I can make that final choice..not you or anybody else.

I love kids, i love babies, I love babysitting my neighbors little girl, I loved helping to raise my little sister, and so on. Abortion isn't something that im a cheerleader for and I don't like the idea of it. But when it comes down to it, if I were to get pregnant and I could see my goals and future possibly slipping away because of that unplanned pregnancy then only I have the final say as to what happens inside my body moving forward after the day I find out. My parents and friends can offer assistance and guidance but ultimately it's up to me in my opinion since only I truly make that call. That's why I'm pro choice.

[Max Rockatansky]

22 States Curb Access To Abortion In 2013
Less Access to Abortion in 22 States. (http://m.npr.org/news/front/259445809)

Yayy! Next step is to make those bitches wear bee suits and walk 10 feet behind men. That'll show'em!

[jillian]

It is crazy that some states actually want a doctor around when someone, not a doctor, is performing an abortion.

except that isn't why they're doing it… there are always doctors "around". it's about forcing them to have hospital privileges and then having the hospitals refuse to give them privileges.


but you already know that.

[Chris]

Well no I didn't mean it like that I was just trying to say that it's the mom that has the most responsibility in the case of a pregnancy and so her opinion and decision matters more than an outsiders opinion.

I dont like like the idea of having an abortion because of convenience or anything like that or as a casual form of birth control, but I do think that ultimately it's her decision as to whether or not she wants her life to change because of one night. For example with me, I'll admit openly right now that I've never had sex before, but it's not because I've never had the opportunity it's because I'm scared to death of getting pregnant before I'm ready, and if that happened I know I'd have to decide two futures. Me getting pregnant in high school or right now while I'm in college would pretty much ruin my future and goals that I hope for myself right now, and so because of that I am waiting till marriage or at least until I'm engaged and ready for something like that. If I were to get pregnant I seriously doubt I'd be able to have an abortion personally, but I don't want to have to make that choice right now, and only I can make that final choice..not you or anybody else.

I love kids, i love babies, I love babysitting my neighbors little girl, I loved helping to raise my little sister, and so on. Abortion isn't something that im a cheerleader for and I don't like the idea of it. But when it comes down to it, if I were to get pregnant and I could see my goals and future possibly slipping away because of that unplanned pregnancy then only I have the final say as to what happens inside my body moving forward after the day I find out. My parents and friends can offer assistance and guidance but ultimately it's up to me in my opinion since only I truly make that call. That's why I'm pro choice.

Thanks! It sounded like you were excluding the unborn from the equation of equal rights. Thanks for clarifying.

[Captain Obvious]

It is crazy that some states actually want a doctor around when someone, not a doctor, is performing an abortion.

Same reason why a doc should be handy during executions.

[Max Rockatansky]

Thanks! It sounded like you were excluding the unborn from the equation of equal rights. Thanks for clarifying.

For all those frozen embryos at fertility clinics across the nation, the term is "uncorked".

Which brings up an interesting question. What happens to all those frozen embryos? If they are tossed out, isn't that murder? What if the power fail and thousands die? Should the power company be charged with mass murder and/or genocide of the uncorked?

Maybe all of the pro-lifers here would like to adopt a few thousand unwanted embryos until they can find them good homes?
http://www.embryoadoption.org/faqs/clinics.cfm

[GrassrootsConservative]

So what punishment would you suggest, @GrassrootsConservative (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=478)? If it's murder, should a woman who gets an abortion get the standard punishment for murder, either life in prison or execution?

I'd be all for that if we can get some potheads out of the prisons first.

[Green Arrow]

I'd be all for that if we can get some potheads out of the prisons first.

Are there any exceptions? If a fifteen year old girl gets raped and pregnancy results from that, if she chooses to get an abortion under your legal system, does she get life imprisonment or execution? Or since she's a minor, would her parents be the ones to go to prison for life/death penalty?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Are there any exceptions? If a fifteen year old girl gets raped and pregnancy results from that, if she chooses to get an abortion under your legal system, does she get life imprisonment or execution? Or since she's a minor, would her parents be the ones to go to prison for life/death penalty?

The rapist should get the punishment, clearly.

To punish anyone else for that is silly.

[roadmaster]

The rapist should get the punishment, clearly.

To punish anyone else for that is silly. Exactly that's like blaming a person for the robber.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Exactly that's like blaming a person for the robber.

Or the president for a terror attack that they couldn't do anything about​.

[kilgram]

That's fine as far as it goes but who chooses for the unborn, what about it's equal rights?
There is no unborn, no human. Only something that can be a human. But when it is aborted it was not.

The rights of the woman are the only ones to worry. She is the one to choose. And abortion is not an easy decission, and it is also one of the most intrusive cirugies.

[peoshi]

For all those frozen embryos at fertility clinics across the nation, the term is "uncorked".

Which brings up an interesting question. What happens to all those frozen embryos? If they are tossed out, isn't that murder? What if the power fail and thousands die? Should the power company be charged with mass murder and/or genocide of the uncorked?

Maybe all of the pro-lifers here would like to adopt a few thousand unwanted embryos until they can find them good homes?
http://www.embryoadoption.org/faqs/clinics.cfm
Does a frozen embryo have a heartbeat?

Do you think their heart suddenly starts beating when they thaw out?


"Time Frame

An unborn baby has a heartbeat as early as near the end of the first month of pregnancy, during week four or week five, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. This is just two to three weeks after conception. By this time, the heart is actually pumping blood with a steady rhythm."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/242600-when-does-an-unborn-baby-have-a-heartbeat/

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Does an embryo have a heartbeat&pc=conduit&ptag=ACE909DEB071442E99DF&form=CONBDF&conlogo=CT3210127

Now maybe you can tell all the pro-lifers here what frozen embryos have to do with abortion?

5218

[Max Rockatansky]

Does a frozen embryo have a heartbeat?

You epitomize the pro-life movement. An embryo with a heartbeat at day five? My God, they don't even understand the process yet they tell everyone they know better and know enough to dictate to others what to do.

For those who are clueless about the process here is some assistance:
http://www.shadygrovefertility.com/newsletter/thawing-mysteries-fet

http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/prenataldevelop.htm

The heartbeat is heard at week 9. Dolphins have heartbeats too as does my dog, cat and goose.

[Codename Section]

For all those frozen embryos at fertility clinics across the nation, the term is "uncorked".

Which brings up an interesting question. What happens to all those frozen embryos? If they are tossed out, isn't that murder? What if the power fail and thousands die? Should the power company be charged with mass murder and/or genocide of the uncorked?

Maybe all of the pro-lifers here would like to adopt a few thousand unwanted embryos until they can find them good homes?
http://www.embryoadoption.org/faqs/clinics.cfm

A lot do, actually. They've been doing it since at least the mid 00's because a family from my church back home had them implanted. I'd have to find the website.

That's still not an argument. We can't do this because of that. If we can never do this because of that then we should all just spend our lives on the couch eating chips because life is too complicated to live.

[Chris]

For all those frozen embryos at fertility clinics across the nation, the term is "uncorked".

Which brings up an interesting question. What happens to all those frozen embryos? If they are tossed out, isn't that murder? What if the power fail and thousands die? Should the power company be charged with mass murder and/or genocide of the uncorked?

Maybe all of the pro-lifers here would like to adopt a few thousand unwanted embryos until they can find them good homes?
http://www.embryoadoption.org/faqs/clinics.cfm


It is morally wrong.

The good home argument is easily shown nonsense by pointing to children in poor homes and asking are they subhuman? Or let's arbitrarily classify and pick others, blacks, idiots, Jews....

[Chris]

There is no unborn, no human. Only something that can be a human. But when it is aborted it was not.

The rights of the woman are the only ones to worry. She is the one to choose. And abortion is not an easy decission, and it is also one of the most intrusive cirugies.


Medical science says from conception it's a living human being. Even just rationally, it cannot be denied it is alive, nor can it be denied it is a human being. Not that it could be, but is. And as such has equal rights.

[Codename Section]

You know I don't mind people with the argument that people have privacy of their body and property and that the government shouldn't even know someone's pregnant much less the medical decision involved.

It's when they get all cold about this shit that I get totally turned off.

[Chris]

You know I don't mind people with the argument that people have privacy of their body and property and that the government shouldn't even know someone's pregnant much less the medical decision involved.

It's when they get all cold about this shit that I get totally turned off.


Same rights for the unborn. The coldness is the arbitrary redefinitions of what it is to be alive and a human being.

[Codename Section]

Same rights for the unborn. The coldness is the arbitrary redefinitions of what it is to be alive and a human being.

If the baby is nourished by the female and the female dies what happens to the 12 week fetus when her body shuts down? It has life but can't sustain itself on its own.

They are a part of each other, which is why I think its cruel of women to have abortions but I can't see where you can write a law telling them they can't do what they want with their body which would be the placenta/amniotic sac that the baby resides in.

If you can, then are you willing to prosecute women who eat junk food while pregnant? How about women who fly while pregnant?

[Chris]

If the baby is nourished by the female and the female dies what happens to the 12 week fetus when her body shuts down? It has life but can't sustain itself on its own.

They are a part of each other, which is why I think its cruel of women to have abortions but I can't see where you can write a law telling them they can't do what they want with their body which would be the placenta/amniotic sac that the baby resides in.

If you can, then are you willing to prosecute women who eat junk food while pregnant? How about women who fly while pregnant?


First case would be natural death.

In the second, people need to be educated about the effects of what they consume and the risks of other things they do.

Personally, I, like you, do not seek government involvement. It's a moral issue.

[Cigar]

Jobs Jobs Jobs :rollseyes:

[Chris]

Jobs Jobs Jobs :rollseyes:

Get government out of the economy as well and things will go better.

[Cigar]

Get government out of the economy as well and things will go better.

Evidence Please

[Codename Section]

Evidence Please

Look at what intervention has gotten us, Goldman Sachs is richer than ever and the average person is poorer, and then think like George Castanza to do the ​opposite.

[Chris]

Evidence Please



The private sector generate wealth-creating jobs, the public sector, wealth-consuming jobs. Walmart, for example, generates wealth. The Obama administration, for example, consumes wealth.

[jillian]

The private sector generate wealth-creating jobs, the public sector, wealth-consuming jobs. Walmart, for example, generates wealth. The Obama administration, for example, consumes wealth.

false. the public sector put money into the economy which results in wealth creating jobs.

your pov is narrow and unsubstantiated by history. in fact, i'd wager far more wealth PRODUCING jobs were created by government than by wal-mart -- the second larges employer in the country and the one that does actually cost government absurd amounts of money subsidizing four of the richest people in the world.

[Chris]

false. the public sector put money into the economy which results in wealth creating jobs.

your pov is narrow and unsubstantiated by history. in fact, i'd wager far more wealth PRODUCING jobs were created by government than by wal-mart -- the second larges employer in the country and the one that does actually cost government absurd amounts of money subsidizing four of the richest people in the world.




the public sector put money into the economy which results in wealth creating jobs.

False. The public sector must first take that money out of the private sector prior to redistributing it. Given that administration of redisctribution incurs transaction costs, that's a net loss. Unless you want to try and argue Keynesian multiplier effects.

It's also surprising, after your standard criticism of it, to find you advocating trickle down economics.



The remainder of your post is pure poppycock.

I'll await your defense of trickle down by means of demonstrating a multiplier effect....

[Codename Section]

false. the public sector put money into the economy which results in wealth creating jobs.

Why do liberals believe that the public sector has a store or lemonade stand where they get all their money from?

The public sector takes our 33% of our money, skims off the top, then recycles it back into some jobs. That's a scam.

[jillian]

Why do liberals believe that the public sector has a store or lemonade stand where they get all their money from?

The public sector takes our 33% of our money, skims off the top, then recycles it back into some jobs. That's a scam.

why does the right think it's ok to create a profit motive for things in the public interest?

no thanks.

i'm not one of the starve government so you can drown it in the bathtub... then they can't control corporatists ... extremists.

[Green Arrow]

why does the right think it's ok to create a profit motive for things in the public interest?

no thanks.

i'm not one of the starve government so you can drown it in the bathtub... then they can't control corporatists ... extremists.

The government is massive now, and the only "control" it has over corporatists is letting them be IN control, so your argument fails.

[Cigar]

The government is massive now, and the only "control" it has over corporatists is letting them be IN control, so your argument fails.

Thankfully the FACTS show that Governemt is smaller under The Obama Administration.

Please Proceed Governor

[zelmo1234]

There is no unborn, no human. Only something that can be a human. But when it is aborted it was not.

The rights of the woman are the only ones to worry. She is the one to choose. And abortion is not an easy decission, and it is also one of the most intrusive cirugies.

Would you be will to say that if a Women chooses to have an abortion and then has mental issues because of that choice that the public should not have to pay for her mental care because it was her decision?

[zelmo1234]

You epitomize the pro-life movement. An embryo with a heartbeat at day five? My God, they don't even understand the process yet they tell everyone they know better and know enough to dictate to others what to do.

For those who are clueless about the process here is some assistance:
http://www.shadygrovefertility.com/newsletter/thawing-mysteries-fet

http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/prenataldevelop.htm

The heartbeat is heard at week 9. Dolphins have heartbeats too as does my dog, cat and goose.

Has a women ever given birth to a Dog, Cat or Goose?

[Cigar]

Has a women ever given birth to a Dog, Cat or Goose?

A Turtle YES

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4597686414084992&pid=1.7

[jillian]

Has a women ever given birth to a Dog, Cat or Goose?


is an egg a chicken?

[zelmo1234]

Thankfully the FACTS show that Governemt is smaller under The Obama Administration.

Please Proceed Governor

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/has-government-employment-really-increased-under-obama/


It is bigger! Though the growth rates is not a fast as under Bush!

[Chris]

is an egg a chicken?



No, jillian, that's silly. Neither an egg nor a sperm is a living human being.

[zelmo1234]

is an egg a chicken?

That would depend on what animal laid the egg. for example if a Duck laid the egg then it would not be a chicken But if you can show me where a Chicken laid and egg and it hatched into something other than a Chicken I would look at that too?

[Chris]

why does the right think it's ok to create a profit motive for things in the public interest?

no thanks.

i'm not one of the starve government so you can drown it in the bathtub... then they can't control corporatists ... extremists.



Because the profit motive is driven by providing good and services consumers value or they, the consumers, go to competitors.

With government monopoly on what it provides, it has no such motive to provide value and consumers aren't allowed to turn to anyone else.



then they can't control corporatists

Where, without the monopolistic force of government, would corporations be able rent seek the power to control? You're not making sense.


One more thing, those questioning the government are not the left or the right, on that political spectrum both support big government. Is it impossible to see other political dimensions from the one-dimensional flat world you exist in?

[Chloe]

She is basically asking if you think that something like scrambled eggs is considered eggs or is it scrambled chicken. For example most people tend to look at an egg from the store as something different than like a rotisserie chicken even though the egg has a chicken embryo floating next to the yolk.

[Captain Obvious]

She is basically asking if you think that something like scrambled eggs is considered eggs or is it scrambled chicken. For example most people tend to look at an egg from the store as something different than like a rotisserie chicken even though the egg has a chicken embryo floating next to the yolk.

We eat chickens and chicken eggs.

Who eats humans and unborn children?

[Chris]

Thankfully the FACTS show that Governemt is smaller under The Obama Administration.


The government is massive now, and the only "control" it has over corporatists is letting them be IN control, so your argument fails.

Please Proceed Governor


http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/has-government-employment-really-increased-under-obama/


It is bigger! Though the growth rates is not a fast as under Bush!


And one doesn't measure size of government by number of public employees but by number and intrusiveness of regulations.

[Chloe]

We eat chickens and chicken eggs.

Who eats humans and unborn children?

Well nobody but that's not what I was trying to say. I was just clarifying what I believe Jillian was hinting at.

[zelmo1234]

We eat chickens and chicken eggs.

Who eats humans and unborn children?

Polar Bears. They are the only animal on earth that consider humans food. while other animals will attack and kill humans the Polar bear will actually hunt humans.

[Chris]

She is basically asking if you think that something like scrambled eggs is considered eggs or is it scrambled chicken. For example most people tend to look at an egg from the store as something different than like a rotisserie chicken even though the egg has a chicken embryo floating next to the yolk.


Ah, so she's playing on ambiguity.

A scrambled egg is not human. It's a chicken.

An even sillier analogy.

[Cigar]

:rollseyes: There Goes The Thread :wink:

[Chris]

:rollseyes: There Goes The Thread :wink:

Towards some intellectual honesty I hope.

[Captain Obvious]

Polar Bears. They are the only animal on earth that consider humans food. while other animals will attack and kill humans the Polar bear will actually hunt humans.

Tigers too I think.

[Green Arrow]

Thankfully the FACTS show that Governemt is smaller under The Obama Administration.

Please Proceed Governor

...

...

I trust you have a source for that absurd claim? 'Cause so far, it just looks like you are seriously living under a rock. A big, gigantic rock.

[Chloe]

Ah, so she's playing on ambiguity.

A scrambled egg is not human. It's a chicken.

An even sillier analogy.

Its just an analogy that shows how people think though. Most people do not relate eating scrambled eggs to eating chicken, even some vegetarians eat eggs (not me) but not chicken because of that mindset. So it can translate to pregnancy in that not everybody relates what is inside the body during the early stages of pregnancy with what's in the body during the day of birth.

[Cigar]

Tigers too I think.

So do Pythons :laugh:

http://sportsmasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/20131127-105419.jpg

[Captain Obvious]

Its just an analogy that shows how people think though. Most people do not relate eating scrambled eggs to eating chicken, even some vegetarians eat eggs (not me) but not chicken because of that mindset. So it can translate to pregnancy in that not everybody relates what is inside the body during the early stages of pregnancy with what's in the body during the day of birth.

Right - you missed my point.

We don't eat our children.

We just kill them, but that's another story.

[Chris]

Its just an analogy that shows how people think though. Most people do not relate eating scrambled eggs to eating chicken, even some vegetarians eat eggs (not me) but not chicken because of that mindset. So it can translate to pregnancy in that not everybody relates what is inside the body during the early stages of pregnancy with what's in the body during the day of birth.



I understand what you're trying to say to rescue jillian's analogy. But the only way the analogy works is to explain the inhumaneness of anti-lifers' view in their inability to see a human being in an embryo.

[Mr. Freeze]

why does the right think it's ok to create a profit motive for things in the public interest?

Why does the left think its ok to mandate what's public interest?

[Captain Obvious]

Why does the left think its ok to mandate what's public interest?

Because it's for your own good, lol!

[Mr. Freeze]

I always think of the modern Democrats like mothers. They are soft totalitarians. They tell you what to do, but it's always "for your own good".

[GrassrootsConservative]

It's a terrible, terrible travesty if they actually become mothers though.

RIP Trayvon Martin.

[Max Rockatansky]

I always think of the modern Democrats like mothers. They are soft totalitarians. They tell you what to do, but it's always "for your own good".

Agreed. I always think of the modern Republicans like fathers. They are hard totalitarians. They tell you what to do, but it's always "for your own good".

Putin is a good example. So was Bush. Pelosi, Obama and Reid are all good examples of soft totalitarians. Fuck them all. Time for Americans to stand up and tell them "Sorry, Mom, Dad, I'm moving out".

[patrickt]

Less Access to Abortion in 22 States. (http://m.npr.org/news/front/259445809)
This was also part of the original post.
"The year 2013 marked the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide. It also marked another year of success for those who would restrict or even outlaw the procedure."

Sadly, the OP ignored the fact, and it is a fact, the Roe vs. Wade restricted abortions. The liberals would now like to pretend that the imaginary Constitutional right exists for at least the full nine months of pregnancy if not longer and attempts to protect a viable child is somehow counter to Roe vs. Wade.

The whole argument is quite obviously founded on a lie. If the states passed a law that contradicted Roe vs. Wade and outlawed abortion I'm confident the pro-abortionists would have it in court in a flash.

[texan]

Not gonna get into the first 6 weeks their are numerous things that go on, but anyone that supports later term for anything other than saving someone is a loser. In three inch bold letters.

[peoshi]

She is basically asking if you think that something like scrambled eggs is considered eggs or is it scrambled chicken. For example most people tend to look at an egg from the store as something different than like a rotisserie chicken even though the egg has a chicken embryo floating next to the yolk.

Chloe, store-bought eggs are not fertilized, they will not hatch even in an incubator, hens lay eggs whether there is a rooster present or not, women do not get pregnant without a male influence.Comparing a scrambled egg to abortion is silly!There is no embryo floating next to the yolk.:rollseyes:

[Chloe]

Chloe, store-bought eggs are not fertilized, they will not hatch even in an incubator, hens lay eggs whether there is a rooster present or not, women do not get pregnant without a male influence.Comparing a scrambled egg to abortion is silly!There is no embryo floating next to the yolk.:rollseyes:

I was wrong about the egg

[jillian]

It's a terrible, terrible travesty if they actually become mothers though.

RIP Trayvon Martin.


a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

*shakes head*

[Captain Obvious]

a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

*shakes head*

Moreso is a life.