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Mister D
02-22-2012, 01:21 PM
We touched on this testerday. I agree with Sowell 100%.

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To ask whether life is fair — either here and now, or at any time or place around the world, over the past several thousand years — is to ask a question whose answer is obvious. Life has seldom been within shouting distance of fair, in the sense of even approximately equal prospects of success.

Snip


More fundamentally, the question whether life is fair is very different from the question whether a given society’s rules are fair. Society’s rules can be fair in the sense of using the same standards of rewards and punishments for everyone. But that barely scratches the surface of making prospects or outcomes the same.
People raised in different homes, neighborhoods, and cultures are going to behave differently — and those differences have consequences. The multiculturalist dogma may say that all cultures are equal, or equally deserving of respect, but treating cultures as sacrosanct freezes people into the circumstances into which they happened to be born, much like a caste system.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/291610/fairness-fraud-thomas-sowell

Conley
02-22-2012, 01:24 PM
Cool, I will check this article out over lunch.

The very idea that life can be anything approaching "fair" - or even more ridiculously, that government can make it so - just sets some people back. It's another way of being a victim.

Life can be a bitch at times...all you can do is fight back. If you wait for the government to save you, well, good luck with that.

Mister D
02-22-2012, 01:24 PM
High tax rates in the upper income brackets allow politicians to win votes with class-warfare rhetoric, painting their opponents as defenders of the rich. Meanwhile, the same politicians can win donations from the rich by creating tax loopholes that can keep the rich from actually paying those higher tax rates — or perhaps any taxes at all.
What is worse than class warfare is phony class warfare. Slippery talk about “fairness” is at the heart of this fraud by politicians seeking to squander more of the nation’s resources.

Mister D
02-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Cool, I will check this article out over lunch.

The very idea that life can be anything approaching "fair" - or even more ridiculously, that government can make it so - just sets some people back. It's another way of being a victim.

Life can be a bitch at times...all you can do is fight back. If you wait for the government to save you, well, good luck with that.

Right and he also argues that it's disingenous anyway.

Chris
02-22-2012, 01:32 PM
I've read other criticisms of "fair" that drove how just how amorphous, how undefinable the term is. When a liberal uses it ask them to define it in some measurable way. Rich are rich and poor poor, it's unfair, so redistribute! OK, at what measurable point does redistribution achieve the aim of fairness? Have decades of welfare achieve fairness? And how is that fair for the one you take money from? To me it's just an emotional appeal for more government.

Conley
02-22-2012, 01:34 PM
I've read other criticisms of "fair" that drove how just how amorphous, how undefinable the term is. When a liberal uses it ask them to define it in some measurable way. Rich are rich and poor poor, it's unfair, so redistribute! OK, at what measurable point does redistribution achieve the aim of fairness? Have decades of welfare achieve fairness? And how is that fair for the one you take money from? To me it's just an emotional appeal for more government.

Exactly...people need to think long and hard about ceding control of their lives to government. You would think with the negative ratings of politicians people would be more reluctant, but there seems to be a disconnect there.

Mister D
02-22-2012, 01:34 PM
I've read other criticisms of "fair" that drove how just how amorphous, how undefinable the term is. When a liberal uses it ask them to define it in some measurable way. Rich are rich and poor poor, it's unfair, so redistribute! OK, at what measurable point does redistribution achieve the aim of fairness? Have decades of welfare achieve fairness? And how is that fair for the one you take money from? To me it's just an emotional appeal for more government.


Well said. No doubt it's an emotional appeal. Sadly, it's somewhat effective.

jgreer
02-22-2012, 01:50 PM
Sorry but selling the government is not fair. OF course there are some things that could go in between but common sense will tell most people what is fair and what isnt.

Mister D
02-22-2012, 01:55 PM
Huh?

Are you most people? Perhaps you could tell us what's fair and why?

jgreer
02-22-2012, 02:06 PM
Thats my point, most people know fair when they see it.

Chris
02-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Well said. No doubt it's an emotional appeal. Sadly, it's somewhat effective.
It's effective because if you disagree you're a horrible immoral evil person who doesn't care about others.

Chris
02-22-2012, 02:08 PM
Thats my point, most people know fair when they see it.
Like porn?

Not a good definition.

Mister D
02-22-2012, 02:09 PM
Thats my point, most people know fair when they see it.

So it's just as arbitrary and ill defined as Sowell and Chris suggest?

jgreer
02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Like porn?

Not a good definition.

No it is just hard without examples. We all know what fair is just some play dumb

jgreer
02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
So it's just as arbitrary and ill defined as Sowell and Chris suggest?

No

Chris
02-22-2012, 03:04 PM
No it is just hard without examples. We all know what fair is just some play dumb
Income disparity. What would be fair? Give examples.

jgreer
02-22-2012, 06:28 PM
Income disparity. What would be fair? Give examples.

person a makes 100,000 and has to pay 30,000 in taxes
person b makes 200,000 and has to pay 30,000
person c makes 50,000 and has to pay 20,000 in taxes

Conley
02-22-2012, 07:11 PM
Which is the unfair one?

Chris
02-22-2012, 07:30 PM
And how would you make it fair? And how would you measure it?

Mister D
02-22-2012, 07:39 PM
Which is the unfair one?

You're supposed to know which one is fair by looking at it. lol

wingrider
02-23-2012, 12:34 AM
so to be fair

if I make 20,000 a year and someone else makes 100,000 a year then to be fair the guy making 100,000 needs to send me a check for 40,000.. yeah that works ... jGreer where is my check???

Mister D
02-23-2012, 08:41 AM
so to be fair

if I make 20,000 a year and someone else makes 100,000 a year then to be fair the guy making 100,000 needs to send me a check for 40,000.. yeah that works ... jGreer where is my check???

Whoa! The campus student center cafe is paying big bucks these days! :wink:

jgreer
02-23-2012, 12:18 PM
And how would you make it fair? And how would you measure it?

I would make it fair by making sure everyone has enough for a food clothing shelter and medicine. you know the same things every other civilized country in the world has ... its only here that people have so much and think letting others suffer is ok

Chris
02-23-2012, 01:27 PM
I would make it fair by making sure everyone has enough for a food clothing shelter and medicine. you know the same things every other civilized country in the world has ... its only here that people have so much and think letting others suffer is ok
Where would you get the funding? Fairly?

jgreer
02-23-2012, 01:40 PM
Where would you get the funding? Fairly?

From taxes of course

jgreer
02-23-2012, 01:41 PM
Food is a lot cheaper than bombs too by the way

Chris
02-23-2012, 02:07 PM
From taxes of course
IOW, take from some to give to others. How's that fair?

Conley
02-23-2012, 02:15 PM
IOW, take from some to give to others. How's that fair?

Right. How can taking something that belongs to someone else ever be considered fair? Most of us learn that lesson before we even get to kindergarten.

Chris
02-23-2012, 02:32 PM
If it's such a good idea shouldn't need a law to enforce it just convince people to do it voluntarily.

jgreer
02-23-2012, 02:36 PM
IOW, take from some to give to others. How's that fair?

So it is ok to take money from people to make bombs and kill others but we can't spend taxes on basic human needs

Pendragon
02-23-2012, 03:29 PM
So it is ok to take money from people to make bombs and kill others but we can't spend taxes on basic human needs

This is precisely why conservatives have earned their reputation well, my good lad!

wingrider
02-23-2012, 03:44 PM
So it is ok to take money from people to make bombs and kill others but we can't spend taxes on basic human needs

this is the concept that I don't understand about liberals. the making of bombs is national defense which is Constitutional. taking someone elses money by force ( taxes ) to give to someone else because they don't have what someone else has is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. My philosophy on this is quite simple.. millions given to charity because your heart or consiciene tells you its the right thing to do is one thing but millions taken by force for charity is just wrong.

Ben Franklin said it best.

Millions for Charity, not one dime by coercion

wingrider
02-23-2012, 03:44 PM
This is precisely why conservatives have earned their reputation well, my good lad!

you are correct sir.. conservatives believe in property rights.

Conley
02-23-2012, 03:56 PM
this is the concept that I don't understand about liberals. the making of bombs is national defense which is Constitutional. taking someone elses money by force ( taxes ) to give to someone else because they don't have what someone else has is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. My philosophy on this is quite simple.. millions given to charity because your heart or consiciene tells you its the right thing to do is one thing but millions taken by force for charity is just wrong.

Ben Franklin said it best.

Millions for Charity, not one dime by coercion

Before the 16th, wouldn't it have been unconstitutional to collect income taxes for national defense?

wingrider
02-23-2012, 04:04 PM
Before the 16th, wouldn't it have been unconstitutional to collect income taxes for national defense?


actually the defense was funded through tarriffs and other means of revenue

here:
Best Answer - Chosen by AskerBefore 1913, the federal government depended only on indirect taxes, i.e., tariff duties, corporation and other excise taxes, as its chief sources of revenue. Revenues came not from labor, but from taxes on goods—tariffs on imported products and excise taxes on items like alcohol, tobacco, firearms and margarine.

Before 1913, people could chose not to pay any and all federal taxes by choosing not to buy the goods.

In 1894, Congress passed a 2-percent individual income tax on those earning $4,000 or more a year, less than 1 percent of the population at the time. Everyone with an income over $4,000 was to pay the same, “flat” 2-percent tax rate.

However, barely a year after it was enacted, the Supreme Court declared the tax unconstitutional. In a 5-4 ruling in Pollack v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co., 158 US 601, the high court decided that the income tax, as a direct tax, was forbidden by Article I, Section 9, of the Constitution. This ruling prohibited direct taxes on individuals unless apportioned on the basis of the population of each state.

In 1909, Congress passed a corporation income tax and a proposed constitutional amendment to authorize Congress to enact an individual income tax.

Which was Amendment XVI and in 1913 they ratified the Amendment

Pendragon
02-23-2012, 04:07 PM
you are correct sir.. conservatives believe in property rights.

Not at all my good sir, I was referring to Conservatives' well earned reputation for being heartless misers.

wingrider
02-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Not at all my good sir, I was referring to Conservatives' well earned reputation for being heartless misers.

really ?? care to back that up with some proof other than your opinion?

if you care to check you will find that conservatives give more to charity than liberals do hands down.. but you go ahead and live in you delusion, I bet its fun there

Pendragon
02-23-2012, 04:15 PM
One need look no further than this thread, where military spending is championed and social services pushed aside as if they are mere trivialities.

wingrider
02-23-2012, 04:19 PM
One need look no further than this thread, where military spending is championed and social services pushed aside as if they are mere trivialities.
you just don't get it do ya? military spending by the federal government is Constitutional Ie the law of the land.

taking tax dollars to spend on entitlements is not. that is misdirection of funds.