Another myth about Medieval life bites the dust

[Mister D]

I really enjoy reading the works of Medievalists like Régine Pernoud, Bede Jarrett, and Christopher Dawson. I came across an interesting tidbit this afternoon. In 1292, there were no less than 26 public baths in Paris. I have long known that there was no lack of personal hygiene in the Middle Ages but I didn't realize public baths were such a common feature of Medieval towns.

[Fredy]

They were most likely left over from the Romans.

[KC]

I really enjoy reading the works of Medievalists like Régine Pernoud, Bede Jarrett, and Christopher Dawson. I came across an interesting tidbit this afternoon. In 1292, there were no less than 26 public baths in Paris. I have long known that there was no lack of personal hygiene in the Middle Ages but I didn't realize public baths were such a common feature of Medieval towns.

I would imagine that the crusades and the Muslim conquest of the southern Iberian Peninsula centuries earlier had something to do with it. Hygiene was more important in Arabic culture than in European culture, but Europeans were quick to incorporate Islamic architectural designs, so I wouldn't doubt it if the spread of public baths had something to do with cultural contact with Islamic civilizations.

[Mister D]

I would imagine that the crusades and the Muslim conquest of the southern Iberian Peninsula centuries earlier had something to do with it. Hygiene was more important in Arabic culture than in European culture, but Europeans were quick to incorporate Islamic architectural designs, so I wouldn't doubt it if the spread of public baths had something to do with cultural contact with Islamic civilizations.

Soap was definitely brought back from the Mid East but the textual and artistic evidence indicates that bathing was common before the Crusades. It appears that the habit simply never disappeared in the west.

People often had to bath in cold water though. That must have sucked.

[Mister D]

KC I find learning about daily life in other eras a lot of fun.

[Mister D]

I stand corrected:


Soapmakers in Naples were members of a guild (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild) in the late sixth century,[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#cite_note-16) and in the eighth century, soap-making was well known in Italy and Spain.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#cite_note-17) The Carolingian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian) capitulary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulary) De Villis, dating to around 800, representing the royal will of Charlemagne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne), mentions soap as being one of the products the stewards of royal estates are to tally. Soapmaking is mentioned both as “women’s work” and as the produce of “good workmen” alongside other necessities, such as the produce of carpenters, blacksmiths, and bakers.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#cite_note-18)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#Early_history

[Guerilla]

I think the unhygienic streak wasn't until later when industrialization happened and the cities began to crowd. I remember reading about how cities in France and Britain had sewage just flowing down the streets. But that was the 1800s.

[KC]

Soap was definitely brought back from the Mid East but the textual and artistic evidence indicates that bathing was common before the Crusades. It appears that the habit simply never disappeared in the west.

People often had to bath in cold water though. That must have sucked.

To be honest, I've never formally studied the medieval era in Western civilization, although I've studied pre-modern Islamic civilization extensively. Maybe you're correct, but the conventional wisdom I've heard from academics is that the Middle East was far ahead of European civilizations when it came to hygiene in the medieval period.

[nathanbforrest45]

One concept

Roman Baths. Way before the Crusades. Don't know about ancient Greece as well

[nathanbforrest45]

By the way, one theory of why Catholics sprinkled rather than immersed for Baptism was because of that cold water. Dunking an 8 day old child in ice cold water lead to a high number of infants dying so the Church switched to just sprinkling water. Protestant churches tend to avoid infant Baptism so getting dunked is not as dangerous.

[Captain Obvious]

You should visit the Ohio Valley.

[jillian]

I would imagine that the crusades and the Muslim conquest of the southern Iberian Peninsula centuries earlier had something to do with it. Hygiene was more important in Arabic culture than in European culture, but Europeans were quick to incorporate Islamic architectural designs, so I wouldn't doubt it if the spread of public baths had something to do with cultural contact with Islamic civilizations.

It's my understanding that most baths were built by Roman conquerors, such as what was found in Ephesus in Turkey. (Which, if you haven't seen it is extraordinary, btw) Herod also included baths at Masada which were inspired by Rome.

[KC]

One concept

Roman Baths. Way before the Crusades. Don't know about ancient Greece as well

True, but this thread is supposed to be about the Medieval period.

[Germanicus]

Im not so sure that public baths added to hygiene that much.

People need to understand that propagandists are propagandists. The enemy is always filthy and unclean.

Romans are so clean that they used to share a sponge to wipe their butts. They invent toilets then share a sponge to wipe their butts. As long as it got a good rinse it was fine.. The sponge stick. Roman anal cleansing.. Im pretty sure the Germanic people were cleaner than the filthy Romans. (:

And public baths filthier than modern pyblic pools. Ewwww.

[Dr. Who]

@KC (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=423) I find learning about daily life in other eras a lot of fun.

Apparently bathing regularly fell off after the black death because the doctors associated the disease with water, though there were parts of Europe relatively unaffected by the plague who did continue to bathe.

[countryboy]

By the way, one theory of why Catholics sprinkled rather than immersed for Baptism was because of that cold water. Dunking an 8 day old child in ice cold water lead to a high number of infants dying so the Church switched to just sprinkling water. Protestant churches tend to avoid infant Baptism so getting dunked is not as dangerous.
Hmmm, very interesting. If this is true though, one must wonder why the practice continues to this day.

[Mister D]

Apparently bathing regularly fell off after the black death because the doctors associated the disease with water, though there were parts of Europe relatively unaffected by the plague who did continue to bathe.

Interesting. Cats too believe it or not.

I also think it's quite likely that Medieval me and women bathed more often than Victorians.

[Mister D]

To be honest, I've never formally studied the medieval era in Western civilization, although I've studied pre-modern Islamic civilization extensively. Maybe you're correct, but the conventional wisdom I've heard from academics is that the Middle East was far ahead of European civilizations when it came to hygiene in the medieval period.

That's probably true. I would think climate was a factor in that. That said, the conventional wisdom is often bunk as far as the Middle Ages are concerned.

[Mister D]

I think the unhygienic streak wasn't until later when industrialization happened and the cities began to crowd. I remember reading about how cities in France and Britain had sewage just flowing down the streets. But that was the 1800s.

Agreed. Victorian hygiene was relatively poor.

[KC]

It's my understanding that most baths were built by Roman conquerors, such as what was found in Ephesus in Turkey. (Which, if you haven't seen it is extraordinary, btw) Herod also included baths at Masada which were inspired by Rome.

I haven't seen it in person. Baths were definitely not an invention of Islamic civilization, but bathing facilities became very important in the medieval middle east due to the emphasis Islam placed on cleanliness for the daily rituals of prayer.

[Green Arrow]

I never understood the idea that people living in the Medieval period rarely bathed. It's not supported anywhere outside History Channel.

[Mister D]

I never understood the idea that people living in the Medieval period rarely bathed. It's not supported anywhere outside History Channel.

This and other myths are largely a product of Enlightement prejudice.

[Captain Obvious]

This and other myths are largely a product of Enlightement prejudice.

Kinda like the bible?

(oops, wrong topic)

[Mister D]

Kinda like the bible?

(oops, wrong topic)

not sure what you mean.

[nathanbforrest45]

True, but this thread is supposed to be about the Medieval period.

Perhaps but someone brought up it was brought into Europe by the Crusades from Muslim countries, which was not true. The topic is also implying that public baths may have been a medieval development, also not true. I don't think its off topic to say that hygiene goes back a long long way

[Max Rockatansky]

They were most likely left over from the Romans.

Who left before they could teach the French how to use them. Apparently the fine art of shaving was also something the Romans didn't pass along.

[Dr. Who]

Interesting. Cats too believe it or not.

I also think it's quite likely that Medieval me and women bathed more often than Victorians.
Bathing in Victorian times was more tied to the class system - cleanliness was next to godliness, particularly among the middle and upper classes, so while people may have only taken a full bath once per week, they washed up between clothing changes at a wash stand. That being said, their clothing was not cleaned that often, other than the undergarments.

[KC]

Perhaps but someone brought up it was brought into Europe by the Crusades from Muslim countries, which was not true. The topic is also implying that public baths may have been a medieval development, also not true. I don't think its off topic to say that hygiene goes back a long long way

I didn't claim that hygiene was foreign to Europeans, only that cultural contact with a civilization that emphasized cleanliness spread to European culture. Of course the Romans, as Jillian pointed out, influenced the creation of bath houses in Islamic culture, having built them in the east centuries before Islam, but because of the notion that a person ought to be clean in order to enter a mosque made bathing much more important in Islamic culture. There is quite a bit of evidence that contact with Islamic civilizations in the Iberian Peninsula and during the crusades influenced European art and architecture, so it's not too far fetched to say their influence spread into other facets of daily life.

[zelmo1234]

Cool thread, something that I had not thought of?

[Guerilla]

I haven't seen it in person. Baths were definitely not an invention of Islamic civilization, but bathing facilities became very important in the medieval middle east due to the emphasis Islam placed on cleanliness for the daily rituals of prayer.

There is a bath called The Great Bath built like 5000 years ago by hindus. It's at Mohenje-daro (or however you spell it......it's in Pakistan).

[KC]

I didn't claim that hygiene was foreign to Europeans, only that cultural contact with a civilization that emphasized cleanliness spread to European culture. Of course the Romans, as Jillian pointed out, influenced the creation of bath houses in Islamic culture, having built them in the east centuries before Islam, but because of the notion that a person ought to be clean in order to enter a mosque made bathing much more important in Islamic culture. There is quite a bit of evidence that contact with Islamic civilizations in the Iberian Peninsula and during the crusades influenced European art and architecture, so it's not too far fetched to say their influence spread into other facets of daily life.

One of my favorite examples of this is the pseudo-Arabic script sometimes adorning the Virgin Mary in medieval artwork. Not sure what this means but one example I read about actually featured Qu'ranic verses on her veil.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Ugolino_di_Nerio_1315_1320_La_Vierge_et_l_Enfant_S ienne_detail.jpg/450px-Ugolino_di_Nerio_1315_1320_La_Vierge_et_l_Enfant_S ienne_detail.jpg

[jillian]

This and other myths are largely a product of Enlightement prejudice.

You mean preferring an era where people came out of the dark ages? I'd hardly call that prejudice.

[nathanbforrest45]

I didn't claim that hygiene was foreign to Europeans, only that cultural contact with a civilization that emphasized cleanliness spread to European culture. Of course the Romans, as Jillian pointed out, influenced the creation of bath houses in Islamic culture, having built them in the east centuries before Islam, but because of the notion that a person ought to be clean in order to enter a mosque made bathing much more important in Islamic culture. There is quite a bit of evidence that contact with Islamic civilizations in the Iberian Peninsula and during the crusades influenced European art and architecture, so it's not too far fetched to say their influence spread into other facets of daily life.

Jillian copied that from my post number 9. She did not mention the Roman baths until post number 12. So please if you are going to give someone credit for something give it to the right poster in the future.

Actually, I was merely pointing out that bathing would certainly have been a concept understood by the citizenry, especially in the larger cities. I was not disagreeing with you but apparently some people can't accept any thing other than 100% agreement.

Be of good cheer.

[Guerilla]

You mean preferring an era where people came out of the dark ages? I'd hardly call that prejudice.

Come to ruin another thread I see. I hardly ever post and you are literally trying to ruin both threads I'm in.

I think he means the enlightenment people thought they were so much better, they looked down on medieval people, and for some reason thought they were dirtier. IOW, prejudice

[jillian]

Come to ruin another thread I see. I hardly ever post and you are literally trying to ruin both threads I'm in.

I think he means the enlightenment people thought they were so much better, they looked down on medieval people, and for some reason thought they were dirty. IOW, prejudice

So it ruins your thread to take any other than the position you want taken? He made a statement about enlightenment prejudice. I pointed out that it is hardly prejudice to prefer an era that wasn't steeped in ignorance and violence.

[Mister D]

You mean preferring an era where people came out of the dark ages? I'd hardly call that prejudice.

There were no "Dark Ages", Jillian. That's why historians today use the term only in a qualified sense (i.e. without the value judgements attached to the term by 18th Century philosophers).
That you would say such a thing illustrates my point. Your views were shaped by the prejudices of the 18th Century. Ironic, actually.

Secondly, you were born in the most violent and murderous century in recorded history. You were saying something about a dark age?

[Mister D]

So it ruins your thread to take any other than the position you want taken? He made a statement about enlightenment prejudice. I pointed out that it is hardly prejudice to prefer an era that wasn't steeped in ignorance and violence.

What era? Your own?

[Mister D]

Come to ruin another thread I see. I hardly ever post and you are literally trying to ruin both threads I'm in.

I think he means the enlightenment people thought they were so much better, they looked down on medieval people, and for some reason thought they were dirtier. IOW, prejudice

Exactly. Funny thing is these were the people who gave us totalitarianism, scientific racism, among much else.

[Captain Obvious]

There were no "Dark Ages", Jillian. That's why historians today use the term only in a qualified sense (i.e. without the value judgements attached to the term by 18th Century philosophers).
That you would say such a thing illustrates my point. Your views were shaped by the prejudices of the 18th Century. Ironic, actually.

Secondly, you were born in the most violent and murderous century in recorded history. You were saying something about a dark age?

Social vs. authoritative violence?

[donttread]

Hunting and Gathering societies are never given their due. The Congo Pygmies worked about 4 hours a day, had more social time and more sex than we do. And if your kids pissed you off the neighbors helped out so nobody got hit.
Who's the primatives again?



I really enjoy reading the works of Medievalists like Régine Pernoud, Bede Jarrett, and Christopher Dawson. I came across an interesting tidbit this afternoon. In 1292, there were no less than 26 public baths in Paris. I have long known that there was no lack of personal hygiene in the Middle Ages but I didn't realize public baths were such a common feature of Medieval towns.

[Guerilla]

So it ruins your thread to take any other than the position you want taken? He made a statement about enlightenment prejudice. I pointed out that it is hardly prejudice to prefer an era that wasn't steeped in ignorance and violence.

No, I was referring how you tend to turn discussions into a shitfest for several pages. It ruins it. Your posts are often done in a way to invoke argument, instead of facilitate discussion is what I'm saying. Your getting better though.

And it's prejudice for Victorians to look down on medieval people, especially on hygiene, when they were actually cleaner. Your going off into other aspects and I was referring to hygiene.

[Guerilla]

Exactly. Funny thing is these were the people who gave us totalitarianism, scientific racism, among much else.

Ya I think it's a good example of how some people lose their humanity when they look at everything as numbers and data after the enlightenment. They found this world of science that they hadn't experienced before and they saw science as too black and white (no pun intended), and they got carried away. It can be a dangerous thing. But we learn.

[Max Rockatansky]

There were no "Dark Ages", Jillian. That's why historians today use the term only in a qualified sense (i.e. without the value judgements attached to the term by 18th Century philosophers).

The Dark Ages were a matter of where you were. An interesting full course on the Early Middle Ages in Europe (284-1000) is offered for free online at http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-210

I downloaded and listened to the entire 22 hour course a couple of summers ago while I was working on a welding project in my hangar.

[Mister D]

Ya I think it's a good example of how some people lose their humanity when they look at everything as numbers and data after the enlightenment. They found this world of science that they hadn't experienced before and they saw science as too black and white (no pun intended), and they got carried away. It can be a dangerous thing. But we learn.

I think in the case of the Enlightenment it was a misguided and, quite frankly, naive faith in humanity, reason, and science that proved so dangerous. That naive faith was eventually shattered by the atrocities and violence of the world wars at least among serious intellectuals. As you can see, however, that disillusionment has yet to reach the peasants.

I agree. Materialism, the phenomenon you referred to when you spoke of reducing everything to numbers and data, is dehumanizing.

You sound a lot like me!

[Mister D]

The Dark Ages were a matter of where you were. An interesting full course on the Early Middle Ages in Europe (284-1000) is offered for free online at http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-210

I downloaded and listened to the entire 22 hour course a couple of summers ago while I was working on a welding project in my hangar.

Free, eh? That's pretty cool. Thanks, dude. I prefer books but I like that sort of thing when I'm going to bed.

[Mister D]

Social vs. authoritative violence?

Homicide rates were quite high in the Middle Ages. There was a great deal of feuding, duels etc. The state directed violence of the modern era is simply off the charts in historical terms.

[Toro]

It's my understanding that most baths were built by Roman conquerors, such as what was found in Ephesus in Turkey. (Which, if you haven't seen it is extraordinary, btw) Herod also included baths at Masada which were inspired by Rome.

I liked the whorehouse in Ephesus!

:tongue:

[Newpublius]

There's actually a watering hole near us in NJ which has been spruced up and sort of disconnected from the fresh water lake that supplies it. In the day, it wasn't chlorinated and it had the reputation of being called 'Polio Park' and this was like the 1950s or something like that (I only know about this anecdotally of course). Pre-scientific era, humanity didn't know exactly how they were being attacked by microbes. They just knew they were getting attacked somehow. Now, countermeasures go way back. Think about the Jewish koshurite laws, basically a religious health code of sorts.

Today we routinely associate water and cleaning ourselves with good sanitation. Its an excellent association and I highly advocate it of course, but naturally with clean water. Problem is that never really existed and people actually associated water, and in this case they were right, with disease and this is why people drank alcohol as opposed to drinking the water. The association between typhoid, sewage and water wasn't known until some point well after the Middle Ages and even into the 1800s sufficient care wasn't taken to ensure that never the two shall meet.

Take a medieval town, small, compact, horse manure on the streets, no flushing toilets, no aqueducts....there was some thought that NOT taking baths was more sanitary. GIVEN their relative lack of sanitation in their daily lives, they were more likely right about this.

[Mister D]

Another modern myth is that witches, heretics etc. were typically burned at the stake. Actually, the predominant method of execution was by hanging. Moreover, the witch craze, so to speak, was an early modern phenomenon with the greatest number pf cases occurring after the Reformation and in Protestant German lands.

[Max Rockatansky]

Free, eh? That's pretty cool. Thanks, dude. I prefer books but I like that sort of thing when I'm going to bed.

Good for driving too. I tend to be the most impatient, world's worst driver in rush hour. Another reason I like living in the country. To counter the frustration of watching being surrounded by idiot drivers, I like listening to audiobooks. It relaxes me and I just put myself behind a big truck and go on autopilot.

[Mister D]

The average Medieval diet was quite healthy and consisted of whole grains, vegetables, and only rarely meat (often fish because of so many religious restrictions). The real threat was famine not a poor diet.

Incidentally, I've read that the ancient Greeks ate only about 3 pounds of meat a year. The Romans, on the other hand, ate considerably more if they could afford it.

[Mister D]

Good for driving too. I tend to be the most impatient, world's worst driver in rush hour. Another reason I like living in the country. To counter the frustration of watching being surrounded by idiot drivers, I like listening to audiobooks. It relaxes me and I just put myself behind a big truck and go on autopilot.

I have a 10 minute commute otherwise I'd consider that. :smiley:

[Max Rockatansky]

I have a 10 minute commute otherwise I'd consider that. :smiley:

Sweet! Mine's about 35 minutes, 45-60 in traffic, but I only do it twice a week. The rest of the time I'm on the road and also listen to books while traveling.

[Mister D]

Sweet! Mine's about 35 minutes, 45-60 in traffic, but I only do it twice a week. The rest of the time I'm on the road and also listen to books while traveling.

Check these out.

http://12byzantinerulers.com/

Yeah, that commute is worth at least 8 grand. I'd like to make more but I have to factor in what that awesome commute is worth.

[KC]

Check these out.

http://12byzantinerulers.com/

Yeah, that commute is worth at least 8 grand. I'd like to make more but I have to factor in what that awesome commute is worth.

I loved listening to those, btw. Only problem is I often listened to them on my walks, and I get distracted sometimes.

[Max Rockatansky]

Check these out.

http://12byzantinerulers.com/

Yeah, that commute is worth at least 8 grand. I'd like to make more but I have to factor in what that awesome commute is worth.

Thanks for the link!

Yes, quality of life certainly has a value all it's own.

[Mister D]

I loved listening to those, btw. Only problem is I often listened to them on my walks, and I get distracted sometimes.

He had another series you showed me one time, right? RW might like that too.

[Mister D]

Thanks for the link!

Yes, quality of life certainly has a value all it's own.

I think KC gave me the link a while back. They're pretty good.

[Max Rockatansky]

He had another series you showed me one time, right? RW might like that too.

I'm always up for a good history lesson.

[Mister D]

I'm always up for a good history lesson.

I don't know that much about Byzantium so those podcasts came in handy. It's not too in depth ut it's a great intro, IMO.

[KC]

He had another series you showed me one time, right? RW might like that too.

Actually, you showed me this one, then I discovered he did another one called Norman Centuries. (http://normancenturies.com/) Yes, I think Road Warrior would also enjoy that one.

[Max Rockatansky]

Actually, you showed me this one, then I discovered he did another one called Norman Centuries. (http://normancenturies.com/) Yes, I think @Road Warrior (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=575) would also enjoy that one.

Thanks for the link. Let me know if you come across any others. The American Revolution in that same Yale series is also excellent. The Professor, Joanne Freeman, is a little giggly, but she's enthusiastic and provides a background on the Revolution of which I've never heard before. http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-116

I like history for several reasons. #1 is figuring out how we got from there to here. #2 is for the same reason George Santayana advised about. #3 is to realize the famous figures of history weren't gods or even demigods. They were human and stumbling around just like the rest of us. We have better tech, but we're still human and subject to those failings.

Reading history has taught me that most things take time and require patience. Most people today are frustrated that what they want isn't instantly available and, therefore, in their minds the system is a failure and we're all going to be screwed in the end. I'm more optimistic that it will all work out.

[fyrenza]

No plundering, pillaging and pyromania?

Cripes. Is NOTHING sacred???

[Mister D]

Actually, you showed me this one, then I discovered he did another one called Norman Centuries. (http://normancenturies.com/) Yes, I think @Road Warrior (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=575) would also enjoy that one.

Hmmm...I can't remember how I came across these then.

[KC]

Thanks for the link. Let me know if you come across any others. The American Revolution in that same Yale series is also excellent. The Professor, Joanne Freeman, is a little giggly, but she's enthusiastic and provides a background on the Revolution of which I've never heard before. http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-116

I like history for several reasons. #1 is figuring out how we got from there to here. #2 is for the same reason George Santayana advised about. #3 is to realize the famous figures of history weren't gods or even demigods. They were human and stumbling around just like the rest of us. We have better tech, but we're still human and subject to those failings.

Reading history has taught me that most things take time and require patience. Most people today are frustrated that what they want isn't instantly available and, therefore, in their minds the system is a failure and we're all going to be screwed in the end. I'm more optimistic that it will all work out.

You would enjoy a book I just finished called Founding Brothers by Joseph Ellis.The author does an excellent job of putting the founders in their historical context and humanizing them, trying to separate the men from the myths.

[Max Rockatansky]

No plundering, pillaging and pyromania?

Cripes. Is NOTHING sacred???

Not this decade, Sweetie.....but I can get us a plane ticket to places where that happens if you want to run away with me. ;)

[undine]

It's my understanding that most baths were built by Roman conquerors, such as what was found in Ephesus in Turkey. (Which, if you haven't seen it is extraordinary, btw) Herod also included baths at Masada which were inspired by Rome.
I think that is probably true. The Christians for a time found the baths pagan but then came to like them again. The French eventually decided bathing was bad for health.

Cleanliness may be next to godliness, but the early Christians held the baths in contempt as an unholy pagan luxury and banned them until the Crusaders returned from the East with a reacquired taste for bathing. By 1292, as many as 26 hot-bath establishments, called éstuves, were again in common use across the city. However, the éstuves, where one could dine with friends, get a haircut and indulge in other assorted activities, gradually gained a reputation as places of debauchery, where prostitutes and political subversives reveled in decadence and propagated nasty epidemics. By the end of the 16th century, all but two had been closed.
The following "grand siècle" of Louis XIII and Louis XIV came to be known also as the "smelly century." Bathing was condemned as both morally and medically hazardous to your health. Doctors claimed that, "with perfume and the modern habit of laundry, bathing isn't necessary."


http://www.parisvoice.com/-archives-97-86/376-paris-bains-douches

[Max Rockatansky]

You would enjoy a book I just finished called Founding Brothers by Joseph Ellis.The author does an excellent job of putting the founders in their historical context and humanizing them, trying to separate the men from the myths.

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered both Founding Brothers and his award winning book American Sphinx from Amazon. Used paperbacks in good condition, of course!

[Mister D]

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered both Founding Brothers and his award winning book American Sphinx from Amazon. Used paperbacks in good condition, of course!

I always try for paperback but rarely used unless it's out of print.

[KC]

I always try for paperback but rarely used unless it's out of print.

My pet peeve is the assholes who go through and highlight/underline half the page. It makes reading a used book extremely unpleasant.

[Mister D]

My pet peeve is the assholes who go through and highlight/underline half the page. It makes reading a used book extremely unpleasant.

Coffee and food stains for me.

[Max Rockatansky]

I always try for paperback but rarely used unless it's out of print.

$8 for both including shipping. The rest goes into my 401(k) and my trip-to-Maui-with-the-GF fund.

My usual method is to order it from the local library, but I was looking for a little addition to my "what to read?" library and those fit the bill.

[Mister D]

$8 for both including shipping. The rest goes into my 401(k) and my trip-to-Maui-with-the-GF fund.

My usual method is to order it from the local library, but I was looking for a little addition to my "what to read?" library and those fit the bill.

I sometimes like to print out articles from websites when I feel like saving money. I did that last year. I also developed a habit of rereading some titles. I did that with a massive volume on St. Paul and a Theology of the New Testament.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I would imagine that the crusades and the Muslim conquest of the southern Iberian Peninsula centuries earlier had something to do with it. Hygiene was more important in Arabic culture than in European culture, but Europeans were quick to incorporate Islamic architectural designs, so I wouldn't doubt it if the spread of public baths had something to do with cultural contact with Islamic civilizations.

Talk about myths! All this Dhimmi talk glorifying Islam is based on the culture those desert bandits inherited from the Europeans they conquered. Because it was unnatural for them to be civilized, they soon reverted to their dumb-savage origins. A related species of beasts, the Mongols, were temporarily civilized by the Chinese culture they conquered.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Perhaps but someone brought up it was brought into Europe by the Crusades from Muslim countries, which was not true. The topic is also implying that public baths may have been a medieval development, also not true. I don't think its off topic to say that hygiene goes back a long long way

A Thread Is Not a Tightrope

[The Sage of Main Street]

One of my favorite examples of this is the pseudo-Arabic script sometimes adorning the Virgin Mary in medieval artwork. Not sure what this means but one example I read about actually featured Qu'ranic verses on her veil.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Ugolino_di_Nerio_1315_1320_La_Vierge_et_l_Enfant_S ienne_detail.jpg/450px-Ugolino_di_Nerio_1315_1320_La_Vierge_et_l_Enfant_S ienne_detail.jpg


Funny, she doesn't look Jewish.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I think he means the enlightenment people thought they were so much better, they looked down on medieval people, and for some reason thought they were dirtier. IOW, prejudice

This slandering also appears in the myth of Oedipus. It has been proved that his name is not Greek. He was a hero of the aborigines the Greeks conquered around 1200 BC. So they had to discredit him by claiming that he killed his father and married his mother.

[Max Rockatansky]

My pet peeve is the assholes who go through and highlight/underline half the page. It makes reading a used book extremely unpleasant.

Messy, yes. My BA was in behavioral psych and I've always had an interest in what makes people tick. Not to help them, of course, but simply because I'm curious. Fuck that touchy-feely shit.

In that regard, I find perspectives to be fascinating. Both yours in this instance and the person who highlights certain passages in another. The highlighting/underlining is a microscope into that person's thinking. What made them find that passage important? What did it mean to them? Obviously someone who underlines all the dirty words or sex acts in a book is pretty easy to figure out, but someone who underlines certain quotes or facts is a little more difficult to understand.

Most of the time when I see a passage highlighted I agree with them. The disagreement is more about why they didn't find other passages equally important. Depending on the book (and where the book was from) I think it might be a college or HS student doing a report or regurgitating a professor. Still, the wonder of why they highlighted a certain passage over another comes to mind.

In the end, it comes to self-interest. I see a passage highlighted and, if I think it's wrong, I pause a moment to wonder if there is something I am missing. If I agree, I move on. Mostly it's move forward.

[Max Rockatansky]

Funny, she doesn't look Jewish.

LOL. I got it, italics or not.

What gets me are the (thankfully) few assholes who still think of Jews as "Christ-Killers". The same slack-jawed nitwits who don't understand Jesus was Jewish.

Four proofs Jesus was Jewish
1. He went into his father's business
2. He lived at home until the age of 33
3. His mother was sure he was God.
4. He was sure his mother was a virgin.

If you really want some funny Jesus ethnic humor read this (http://www.haruth.com/jhumor/Jhumor10.htm).

[The Sage of Main Street]

There were no "Dark Ages", Jillian. That's why historians today use the term only in a qualified sense (i.e. without the value judgements attached to the term by 18th Century philosophers).
That you would say such a thing illustrates my point. Your views were shaped by the prejudices of the 18th Century. Ironic, actually.

Secondly, you were born in the most violent and murderous century in recorded history.

So you don't think the decadent historians who cluster in today's academentia could be going backwards themselves, which would cause their covering up for that horrible period of bloodbaths and superstition? You want us to believe that new means improved, taking advantage of that truth about material things and applying it to intellectual things. But I have a Renaissance mind and I don't believe there is anything wrong with turning back the clock if it is connected to a time bomb. Postmodernism is a prelude to the imminent Second Dark Ages. Our time is so much like the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, including its escapist and repetitious intellectualism.

A revealing fact about that putrid period is that Rome during the Empire had a population of over a million. During the Dark Ages, its population shrank to 20,000! People huddled in fear under the minarchy. It was every man for himself, kill or be killed. The Middle Ages, however, were not an awakening of human progress. It was a period of exhaustion from the previous mindless violence. It was stagnant and should be included in the Dark Ages. Your professors preach the opposite. They would shudder if they knew how history will treat them.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Hunting and Gathering societies are never given their due. The Congo Pygmies worked about 4 hours a day, had more social time and more sex than we do. And if your kids pissed you off the neighbors helped out so nobody got hit.
Who are the primitives again?

Backward savages who hoarded vast areas of land because their genetically defective minds couldn't figure out how to get the most out of it. The slow but unavoidable laws of evolution dictate that they are living on borrowed time. If they continue to get in our way, we will have to accelerate their well-deserved extinction. There is nothing inhuman about the way we have to treat subhumans. To treat their species humanely would be a contradiction in terms.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Homicide rates were quite high in the Middle Ages. There was a great deal of feuding, duels etc. The state directed violence of the modern era is simply off the charts in historical terms.

Then why has population grown? You treat your decadent clique of historians as if they were the truly Enlightened Ones. Authoritarian irrationalism is an omen of collapse. The few aware people today can hear the Ivory Tower creaking.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The average Medieval diet was quite healthy and consisted of whole grains, vegetables, and only rarely meat (often fish because of so many religious restrictions). The real threat was famine not a poor diet.

Incidentally, I've read that the ancient Greeks ate only about 3 pounds of meat a year. The Romans, on the other hand, ate considerably more if they could afford it.

Nature has a way of re-inforcing itself. For most of human history, it took great courage to kill dangerous prey with little more than sticks and stones. Eating the meat created courage. That's why the ruling class, cowards themselves and vastly outnumbered, push vegetarianism on us in order to turn us into cowards. The worst caste system ever was in India, which also had the most emasculating anti-meat scheme. It is significant that the only caste that was allowed to eat meat was the army. Also, that the British unit with the most important job, guarding the royal family, is called "Beefeaters."

[The Sage of Main Street]

Only problem is I often listened to them on my walks, and I get distracted sometimes.

It tells.

[The Sage of Main Street]

LOL. I got it, italics or not.

What gets me are the (thankfully) few assholes who still think of Jews as "Christ-Killers". The same slack-jawed nitwits who don't understand Jesus was Jewish.

Four proofs Jesus was Jewish
1. He went into his father's business
2. He lived at home until the age of 33
3. His mother was sure he was God.
4. He was sure his mother was a virgin.

If you really want some funny Jesus ethnic humor read this (http://www.haruth.com/jhumor/Jhumor10.htm).

As Woody Allen said, "Jesus was extremely well-adjusted for an only child." (He was talking to a nun. Catholics believe He had no brothers.)

When Elizabeth Warren claimed she was part Indian, some blogger commented, "Funny, she doesn't look Siouxish."

[Max Rockatansky]

As Woody Allen said, "Jesus was extremely well-adjusted for an only child." (He was talking to a nun. Catholics believe He had no brothers.)

When Elizabeth Warren claimed she was part Indian, some blogger commented, "Funny, she doesn't look Siouxish."

Your point?

If you just want to be weird, have at it. It's a free county and lot's of people have died to keep it that way. Unfortunately, not many of them have been elected to Congress.

You talk tough, but you also talk in a manner that is incomprehensible. If you are all about you, keep doing what you are doing. If you really care about our nation, then figure out a way to effectively communicate with its inhabitants.

[The Sage of Main Street]

If you just want to be weird, have at it.
You talk tough, but you also talk in a manner that is incomprehensible. If you really care about our nation, then figure out a way to effectively communicate with its inhabitants.

In other words, you want me to dumb down things so that they can be understood by simplistic minds that only accept what matches unproven claims about reality that self-appointed authorities tell them is the way things are. You are too lazy to try to figure things out, so you borrow your ideas from those who are paid to sell you lies.

[donttread]

What you refer to as "Hoarding vast areas of land" is what we now call sustainable, unlike our modern societies feeding increasingly off a disappearing resource,




Backward savages who hoarded vast areas of land because their genetically defective minds couldn't figure out how to get the most out of it. The slow but unavoidable laws of evolution dictate that they are living on borrowed time. If they continue to get in our way, we will have to accelerate their well-deserved extinction. There is nothing inhuman about the way we have to treat subhumans. To treat their species humanely would be a contradiction in terms.

[Max Rockatansky]

In other words, you want me to dumb down things so that they can be understood by simplistic minds that only accept what matches unproven claims about reality that self-appointed authorities tell them is the way things are. You are too lazy to try to figure things out, so you borrow your ideas from those who are paid to sell you lies.

Nice rant, but completely wrong. Your attempt at indignation is amusing.

[Max Rockatansky]

Actually, you showed me this one, then I discovered he did another one called Norman Centuries. (http://normancenturies.com/) Yes, I think @Road Warrior (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=575) would also enjoy that one.

I didn't have time before, but am now downloading both links to my MP3 player.

For those who have iPhones, the app iTunes University (iTunes U) allows access to numerous free downloads of college courses of which the previously listed Yale courses were only two.

http://www.apple.com/education/ipad/itunes-u/

[Max Rockatansky]

For those interested in downloading free audio books check here: https://archive.org/details/audio

Sun Tzu "The Art of War" is an excellent book which is applicable both on the battlefield and the boardroom.
https://archive.org/details/art_of_war_librivox

[sotmfs]

In other words, you want me to dumb down things so that they can be understood by simplistic minds that only accept what matches unproven claims about reality that self-appointed authorities tell them is the way things are. You are too lazy to try to figure things out, so you borrow your ideas from those who are paid to sell you lies.

Whatever!You are a legend in your own mind!

[fyrenza]

In other words, you want me to dumb down things so that they can be understood by simplistic minds that only accept what matches unproven claims about reality that self-appointed authorities tell them is the way things are. You are too lazy to try to figure things out, so you borrow your ideas from those who are paid to sell you lies.

Perhaps more ... build up, from the basics.

I'm sorry, but I'm an idiot about some things,
and unless you can lay a foundation that I can understand,
I probably won't reach any correct conclusions.

Like ^that.^

[Mister D]

Then there is the Flat Earth Myth which was yet another product of prejudice against the Middle Ages. Western intellectuals, from about the 5th Century BC onward, believed the Earth was spherical. That is, no one believed Columbus would fall off the Earth.

[Captain Obvious]

Then there is the Flat Earth Myth which was yet another product of prejudice against the Middle Ages. Western intellectuals, from about the 5th Century BC onward, believed the Earth was spherical. That is, no one believed Columbus would fall off the Earth.

If I remember correctly, wasn't the concept of a round earth considered heresy and punishable by death by the Catholic Church? Who, not until (relatively) recently denounced that practice?

Who was it - Copernicus, I might have that wrong, who was persecuted by the Catholic Church into publishing materials excluding the round earth theory?

[Mister D]

If I remember correctly, wasn't the concept of a round earth considered heresy and punishable by death by the Catholic Church? Who, not until (relatively) recently denounced that practice?

Who was it - Copernicus, I might have that wrong, who was persecuted by the Catholic Church into publishing materials excluding the round earth theory?

Virtually all Christian writers excepted the Greco-Roman view of the Earth's shape. I don't anyone was persecuted for such a thing.

[Captain Obvious]

Virtually all Christian writers excepted the Greco-Roman view of the Earth's shape. I don't anyone was persecuted for such a thing.

Not persecuted, wrong word probably. Pressured I guess.

I'll dig it up tomorrow maybe at lunch, I remember reading it a while back. Interesting stuff.

[Fredy]

If I remember correctly, wasn't the concept of a round earth considered heresy and punishable by death by the Catholic Church? Who, not until (relatively) recently denounced that practice?

Who was it - Copernicus, I might have that wrong, who was persecuted by the Catholic Church into publishing materials excluding the round earth theory?

Copernicus got in trouble for having a heliocentric view of the solar system.

The Church believed the sun revolved around the earth (geocentric)

[fyrenza]

Not persecuted, wrong word probably. Pressured I guess.

I'll dig it up tomorrow maybe at lunch, I remember reading it a while back. Interesting stuff.

Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth in ... 3BC


Eratosthenes of Cyrene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya) (Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Ἐρατοσθένης, IPA: [eratostʰénɛːs] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Greek); English / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)ɛr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɒ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)θ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)iː (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); c. 276 BC[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#cite_note-1) – c. 195/194 BC[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#cite_note-2)) was a Greek mathematician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematician), geographer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographer), poet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poet), astronomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomer), and music theorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory). He was a man of learning, becoming the chief librarian at the Library of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria). He invented the discipline of geography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography), including the terminology used today.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#cite_note-Roller.2C_Duane_W_2010-3)



Pretty interesting man, what with the varied interests/studies.

[fyrenza]

And, ummm ... Y'all KNOW that the Christian persecution isn't limited to just proclaimed Christians ~

it against anyone that would stand for The Truth.

[Peter1469]

Then there is the Flat Earth Myth which was yet another product of prejudice against the Middle Ages. Western intellectuals, from about the 5th Century BC onward, believed the Earth was spherical. That is, no one believed Columbus would fall off the Earth.

Yet some on the radical left still believe that the religious right (which they tend to confused with the right in general) believe that the earth is flat today.

[Peter1469]

Copernicus got in trouble for having a heliocentric view of the solar system.

The Church believed the sun revolved around the earth (geocentric)

That wasn't the main issue that the Church had with him. It was his more esoteric beliefs.

[sotmfs]

On Feb. 13, 1633, Galileo arrived in Rome to be tried for promoting Copernican theories, such as the revolutionary idea that the Earth orbits the sun.

Galileo was sentenced to house arrest in 1634

[Mister D]

On Feb. 13, 1633, Galileo arrived in Rome to be tried for promoting Copernican theories, such as the revolutionary idea that the Earth orbits the sun.

Galileo was sentenced to house arrest in 1634


Earlier, Pope Urban VIII had personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo. Whether unknowingly or deliberately, Simplicio, the defender of the Aristotelian Geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. Indeed, although Galileo states in the preface of his book that the character is named after a famous Aristotelian philosopher (Simplicius (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Simplicius_of_Cilicia) in Latin, Simplicio in Italian), the name "Simplicio" in Italian also has the connotation of "simpleton".[56] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-56) This portrayal of Simplicio made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book: an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defence of the Copernican theory. Unfortunately for his relationship with the Pope, Galileo put the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio. Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book.[57] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-57) However, the Pope did not take the suspected public ridicule lightly, nor the Copernican advocacy. Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to defend his writings.[58] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-58)



The Pope (yeah, the Catholic guy) was one of Galileo's supporters and friends. Let's just say that Galileo's PR skills coudl have used some work.

Also, he did his best scientific work while under comfortable house arrest. Go figure.

[KC]

The Pope (yeah, the Catholic guy) was one of Galileo's supporters and friends. Let's just say that Galileo's PR skills coudl have used some work.

Also, he did his best scientific work while under comfortable house arrest. Go figure.

I wouldn't have been happy had my official position been represented by a fellow named Simplicio either.

[Mister D]

I wouldn't have been happy had my official position been represented by a fellow named Simplicio either.

The actual story was passed over for a ridiculously simplified one that fit the agenda of those who hated the Catholic Church well over a century later.

[KC]

The actual story was passed over for a ridiculously simplified one that fit the agenda of those who hated the Catholic Church well over a century later.

I remember learning the incorrect version in my middle school history class, then learning the correct version reading a book by Dinesh D'Souza (a Catholic writer/political pundit) in High School. After verifying the correct version it was the first time I realized how awful the public education system was.

[Mister D]

I remember learning the incorrect version in my middle school history class, then learning the correct

Most people get the simplified and thus distorted version. Again, this is why I love reading the work of specialists.

[Mister D]

KC I forget their names but there were two ringleaders in the massacre of some German or French Jews during the First Crusade. Far from being sanctioned by anyone in authority, let alone the church, both men were known outlaws who for all intents and purposes caused a riot. When I was younger all I knew was that it had happened and it always seemed like it was part of the crusade. It wasn't.

[The Sage of Main Street]

What you refer to as "Hoarding vast areas of land" is what we now call sustainable, unlike our modern societies feeding increasingly off a disappearing resource,

Your Zero-Growth academic gurus are secretly flunkies of the exclusivist Right Wing tyranny. The development of Nature has been the sole cause of class mobility; that's why the plutocrats want to limit it to resources they already own by telling lies about Peak Oil and scare stories about development leading to our destruction. What America has been all about is the excluded classes of Europe becoming prosperous through the uninhibited development of the natural resources that the genetically Low-IQ savages were unable to get anything out of. Enviros are childish mutant misfits who hate the human race and have declared war on us.

OLD SCHOOL: Manifest Destiny
NEW AGE: Many Fuzzy Dust Bunnies

[The Sage of Main Street]

Nice rant, but completely wrong. Your attempt at indignation is amusing.

If you say so. Actually it's not you preaching your absurd sense of superiority. You don't have a mind of your own but are only a dummy for the ruling class's ventriloquists you think know it all.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Whatever!You are a legend in your own mind!

Such originality! Not what I expected from this Whirled Wad of Wub, where Netwits quote meaningless cliches and think that makes them geniuses.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Perhaps more ... build up, from the basics.

I'm sorry, but I'm an idiot about some things,
and unless you can lay a foundation that I can understand,
I probably won't reach any correct conclusions.

Like ^that.^

I make you think. Usually, confusion is caused by fear of questioning received truths that are never publicly questioned. Attacks on the basics of our oppression, such as the Constitution, are treated just as if they are as whacko as thinking we are dreaming our reality and that our dream-world is our actual reality. If I made things any clearer, you would be afraid that your whole world is falling apart.

Like his objection. Someone mentioned jokes about Jesus, so I added a few to that. Somehow he thinks he's being rational in saying that my post comes out of nowhere. I can't take seriously such insincere grasping for some way to criticize me.

[Max Rockatansky]

Bzzzzz...Bzzzzz...-----SPLAT!!!
If you say so. Actually it's not you preaching your absurd sense of superiority. You don't have a mind of your own but are only a dummy for the ruling class's ventriloquists you think know it all.

LOL. In military aviation, assessing bombing a target is sometimes difficult. That's where "secondary explosions" come in. It's one thing to drop a bomb. It's another to see that bomb result in fireworks aka secondary explosions.

In Internet forums, it's not always easy for people to gauge the effects of their statements. That's where "secondaries" come in handy. Thanks for pointing out to both me and the forum how much my comments have affected you. It means I was dead on target.


http://www.amazing-airplanes.com/images/thumbs/bombers/b-521.jpg

[The Sage of Main Street]

Then there is the Flat Earth Myth which was yet another product of prejudice against the Middle Ages. Western intellectuals, from about the 5th Century BC onward, believed the Earth was spherical. That is, no one believed Columbus would fall off the Earth.

Postmodernism is decadent and justifies itself by putting down far greater eras and elevating the periods of degeneracy and stagnancy. There Is Nothing Wrong with Turning Back the Clock If It Is Connected to a Time Bomb. Misusing big words because you are too lazy or too sure of yourself to look them up is a minor sign of decadence.

[Max Rockatansky]

Actually, you showed me this one, then I discovered he did another one called Norman Centuries. (http://normancenturies.com/) Yes, I think @Road Warrior (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=575) would also enjoy that one.

I've been listening to the first several podcasts of this today and it's been very enjoyable. It reminds me of how George Santayana was correct; the attempts by both the French and British Kings to appease the Vikings with bribes were both expensive to the point of bankruptcy and utter failures. Better to have gone down fighting than to knuckle under a failed policy.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Eratosthenes computed the circumference of the earth in ... 3BC



Pretty interesting man, what with the varied interests/studies.

The Library of Alexandria was destroyed by Muslime savages. Diogenes Laertius had written a list of its contents. It is tragic the books we lost, which were as good as whatever has survived from the Classical Greeks. The entire works of Aristotle vanished; what was left were only textbooks from his school at Athens.

[Codename Section]

The Library of Alexandria was destroyed by Muslime savages. Diogenes Laertius had written a list of its contents. It is tragic the books we lost, which were as good as whatever has survived from the Classical Greeks. The entire works of Aristotle vanished; what was left were only textbooks from his school at Athens.

What? Did you ever hear of the Ptolemies and the Caesars?

[The Sage of Main Street]

Christians ~

it against anyone that would stand for The Truth.

No, that is the Internet Inquisition by Netiquette Nannies.

[fyrenza]

The Library of Alexandria was destroyed by Muslime savages. Diogenes Laertius had written a list of its contents. It is tragic the books we lost, which were as good as whatever has survived from the Classical Greeks. The entire works of Aristotle vanished; what was left were only textbooks from his school at Athens.

Nothing lasts forever ...

save Truth.

The pity is? When It's hidden/censored?

We have to REdiscover it. <sigh>

[fyrenza]

What? Did you ever hear of the Ptolemies and the Caesars?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an6A-Wu6-B4

[The Sage of Main Street]

The actual story was passed over for a ridiculously simplified one that fit the agenda of those who hated the Catholic Church well over a century later.

More excusing of the authoritarian irrationalism that ruled your precious medievalism.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Most people get the simplified and thus distorted version. Again, this is why I love reading the work of specialists.

Specious specialists pushing an agenda that reveals their jealous hatred of Renaissance Men of Action.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Nothing lasts forever ...

save Truth.

The pity is? When It's hidden/censored?

We have to REdiscover it. <sigh>

That's why archaeologists should concentrate on discovering these precious lost works. Instead, they are academented self-indulgent escapists. They are crackpots in search of cracked pots.

[fyrenza]

Specious specialists pushing an agenda that reveals their jealous hatred of Renaissance Men of Action.

Most folks realize that there are TWO sides to the story, so regardless of WHICH one you're reading about,

you're wasting your time if you aren't thinking about how the other side could have told the same story.

Just sayin'

[The Sage of Main Street]

Most folks realize that there are TWO sides to the story, so regardless of WHICH one you're reading about,

you're wasting your time if you aren't thinking about how the other side could have told the same story.

Just sayin'

In other words, if I don't blindly follow New Age fads, I know nothing about them. Your lack of logic is itself a sign of the 20th Century's irrational authoritarianism.